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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
House Ethics Committee: "Substantial Evidence" That Gaetz Violated House Rules, State And Federal Laws; Alleged CEO Killer Pleads Not Guilty To NY State Charges; Trump On Elon Musk: "No, He's Not Going To Be President". Aired 9-10p ET
Aired December 23, 2024 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
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TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): --and the most popular baby names are returning champions. Noah and Olivia.
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Thanks for joining.
"THE SOURCE" starts now.
SARA SIDNER, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Straight from THE SOURCE tonight.
The Gaetz report is out, and it's a doozy. The House Ethics Committee laying out what it calls substantial evidence that the former Congressman paid tens of thousands of dollars for sex with multiple women, including a minor, and took drugs while in office. Gaetz has denied the accusations, repeatedly, and he's pushing back, again tonight.
And the alleged CEO killer back in court today. Luigi Mangione's lawyer, tearing into authorities for treating her client like, quote, a "Spectacle," and staging that extraordinary perp walk.
Also, is all the talk of President Musk getting under the President- elect's skin? You'll hear what Donald Trump has to say about that.
I'm Sara Sidner, in for Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
For the first time, we are seeing the evidence collected by the House Ethics Committee investigation, into former GOP Congressman, Matt Gaetz.
The once-secret 42-page report states that there is, quote, "Substantial evidence that Representative Gaetz violated House Rules, state and federal laws, and other standards of conduct prohibiting prostitution, statutory rape, illicit drug use, acceptance of impermissible gifts, the provision of special favors and privileges, and obstruction of Congress."
That he "Regularly paid women for engaging in sexual activity with him." "In 2017... engaged in sexual activity with a 17-year-old girl." And "Used or possessed illegal drugs, including cocaine and ecstasy, on multiple occasions."
The report referred to the 17-year-old as Victim A. And it said, quote, "She did not inform Representative Gaetz that she was under 18 at the time, nor did he ask her," her "age."
Gaetz strongly denying accusations in the report. And in a post on X said, "They did this to me in a Christmas Eve-Eve report and not in a courtroom of any kind where I could present evidence and challenge witnesses."
Gaetz also argues, giving funds to someone you are dating, as he put it, is not prostitution.
Yesterday, President-elect Trump gave a shout out to Gaetz. Remember, Trump had picked him to be attorney general. But that idea went down in flames.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND CURRENT PRESIDENTIAL- ELECT: A friend of mine who I haven't seen in a little while, Matt Gaetz, is here. Where's Matt? He's around here some place.
(CHEERING)
TRUMP: Matt Gaetz.
(APPLAUSE)
TRUMP: He's got a big career set up. And just want to say hello to Matt.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SIDNER: Now, that was before this report came out, at the same event. And before the report. Gaetz himself trolled some of his critics while assessing his own future.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MATT GAETZ, FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE (R-FL): Many have asked which perch I will be fighting from next.
My fellow Floridians have asked me to eye the Governor's Mansion in Tallahassee.
(CHEERING)
GAETZ: Maybe Special Counsel to go after the insider trading for my former colleagues in Congress.
(CHEERING)
GAETZ: It seems I may not have had enough support in the United States Senate. Maybe I'll just run for Marco Rubio's vacant seat in the United States Senate, and join some of those folks.
(CHEERING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SIDNER: So, does this report change that?
My first source tonight is CNN Crime and Justice Correspondent, Katelyn Polantz.
Thank you so much for being here, Katelyn, on this Christmas Eve-Eve.
Can you walk us through the pages and pages of evidence that the committee found that they say backs up their report.
KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Sara, that evidence that the committee is putting out there, not just in narrative form, as part of this report that's about 40 pages long, but also in appendices that they've attached.
They're showing things like text messages where Matt Gaetz is asking women to bring him drugs.
They're showing volumes of payments on payment platforms like Venmo, Cash App, PayPal, showing women being paid hundreds of dollars from either his personal accounts or accounts affiliated with him.
[21:05:00]
That looks like 11 pages of Excel spreadsheets, essentially, and they say things in these transactions that are payments. At least 20 of them are payments for what the House believes are for sex or for drugs being made to women. The line -- the line items on them are saying things like they're for groceries, dry clean, dinner, reimbursement, relaxation. $300, at one point, to the Easter Bunny. $400 for being awesome. And then $1,200 for kale.
So Sara, that is part of the evidence. But there's also more on top of that. There are witnesses who spoke to the committee, including this woman who was 17 at the time. She had sex with Matt Gaetz in 2017, when he was still a sitting Congressman. She did testify to the committee and speak to them about her experience.
SIDNER: What more did the committee learn about Gaetz's interactions with the 17-year-old that they're saying, they understood, he allegedly paid for sex?
POLANTZ: That's right. What they learned from both the woman, the girl at the time, who is a victim here, is that she was having sex with Gaetz, twice at a party, that there were other people there, at one point in time. That she received $400 in cash from him that evening, which she understood was to be payment for sex.
The committee says they have this corroborated from other witnesses that they have. And they write then that, even though Matt Gaetz was not necessarily or saying he did not know that she was 17, at the time, and never asked her age, they write that, After he learned that Victim A was a minor, he maintained contact, and less than six months after she turned 18, he met up with her again for commercial sex.
SIDNER: Yes. The report is out, and it also accused him of breaking state laws and federal laws.
But the federal case did not go forward. Could there be state charges in this?
POLANTZ: Well, Sara, that is a question for the State of Florida and investigators there. We know that the federal government did investigate Matt Gaetz for the possible violation of federal sex trafficking laws. They did not charge him with any crime, declined to charge him.
The House Ethics Committee then picked up their investigation. And in the report today, they too, did not find evidence to conclude he may have violated federal sex trafficking laws.
But on the State question, what the House found is that they believe that he may have committed statutory rape, when he had sex with this girl in 2017, and that that could be in violation of Florida's law. They also say that they think it's possible he may have lied to them, made false statements, or tried to obstruct this congressional investigation.
But what happens next? Those are questions for authorities that we just won't know the answer to yet.
SIDNER: And we certainly know that Matt Gaetz is talking about trying to run for office in Florida, certainly before this report came out. But he is saying he has done nothing wrong.
Katelyn Polantz, thank you so much.
I want to bring in my political sources tonight.
Senior adviser to Hillary Clinton's 2016 presidential campaign, Karen Finney.
And former senior adviser to Senator Mitch McConnell, Scott Jennings.
Thank you both for being here.
Scott, let's start with you.
Gaetz slamming the report, defending himself in online post. And here's one where he claims, quote, "Giving funds to someone you are dating - that they didn't ask for - and that isn't "charged" for sex is now prostitution?" And that he "Was never charged with a crime."
Gaetz has repeatedly framed the Justice Department's decision, not to charge him, as an exoneration.
We know that that isn't how this works. No prosecutor has actually come out to clear Gaetz. But he was never charged.
What do you make of all of this, and the fact that the ethics report is out, and it has got some really damning information in it?
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER TO SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL: Yes, I mean, I'll be candid with you. I don't make much of it, because most of the details, or most of the stories that we heard, we already knew. I mean, a lot of this stuff was already swirling in the public domain, anyway.
Number two, Matt Gaetz is no longer in Congress.
Number three, Matt Gaetz is no longer under consideration to be in Donald Trump's Cabinet.
As far as I'm concerned, he's a private citizen in Florida. And I'm sure he has a story to tell about this. And if he runs for office again, he'll have to explain what's in this report, and we'll see what the voters say about this.
But honestly, of all the things that happened in Washington, D.C. today, to me, this is a low priority when you consider what Joe Biden did over at the White House, commuting all the sentences of these terrible people, using the power of the presidency. He's still in office. Gaetz is gone. And yet, there seems to be more outrage about Gaetz over stuff that, frankly, is old news.
SIDNER: Well, there's a lot of information that has come out that, frankly--
KAREN FINNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, SR. ADVISER, 2016 CLINTON PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN: Yes. SIDNER: --people didn't know about, including, you know--
FINNEY: Yes.
SIDNER: I know the talk of statutory rape. But that the Ethics committee found this, is significant. And we will talk about what Joe Biden did, in just a bit, with those commutations.
Karen, I want you to listen to what Representative Glenn Ivey, a Democrat who sits on the House Ethics Committee, said to CNN's Kate Bolduan, tonight. Listen.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. GLENN IVEY (D-MD): I think the evidence is strong. And, you know, the substantial evidence finding that we reached, I think, is certainly very well-supported by the evidence. And the testimony of the people that you mentioned, backed up by the text messages, backed up by the financial records. And we put it all together and put it out there.
So, you know, that's my take. The bottom line, though, is, you know, what does the public decide?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SIDNER: Everyone knows that the Ethics committee is not a court of law. But it is about the ethics of a member of Congress, and whether or not it is appropriate.
FINNEY: Right.
SIDNER: Given though that the report has no real legal teeth, is this an attempt to sort of win the battle of public perception, or something else?
FINNEY: That may be part of it. But I think there are a couple of reasons why this report actually matters.
And Scott is a great communicator. He did a really lovely job there, trying to diminish the importance of this. But there's a couple things that do matter.
Number one, remember that when Donald Trump initially nominated Gaetz, he was talking about recess appointments, which would have meant that Gaetz would not have had to go through any kind of formal hearing. And there was this, the -- he was pressing that the report not be released.
I say that because it is a reminder, this is why the hearings for each of these Cabinet nominees matters. It's important that every single one of those individuals go through the process.
I think Trump has finally come around to realizing, they're not going to get him -- let him get away with just trying to shove some of the stuff under the rug, and get -- and pass these people through. I mean, imagine someone like Matt Gaetz as the Attorney General of the United States of America. I mean, he is a disgusting sleazeball.
And secondly, I think it's important, I heard some of the members, I was reading with some of their comments, I think they felt that this was damaging enough, that it was important that younger members, newer members, understand that there is accountability, and that this kind of behavior is inappropriate.
One of the things I didn't know, that I read in the report, he actually created a fake email account from his office in the Capitol, which he was using to buy drugs. I mean, not only is that stupid. It's incredibly inappropriate, and not someone who should be serving, certainly not in Congress.
And I think it's important that we hold leaders accountable. Unfortunately, you have a convicted felon as president, so we missed that vote. But again, I think there's some very important facts that came out today that are very relevant.
SIDNER: This is a bipartisan -- you know, the Ethics Committee is bipartisan. I think it's evenly split. So, a Republican would have had to have voted to release this report.
I'm curious from you, Scott, because you mentioned the possibility that Gaetz might run for office. Does he have a political future in the world that we live in now?
JENNINGS: Well, a couple of things.
Number one, listening to Karen's explanation of this, I just want to remind everyone, Matt Gaetz is no longer in Congress. Matt Gaetz is no longer under consideration for being in a Cabinet. Matt Gaetz is not going to be recess-appointed to anything.
I feel like there's an effort today to make it feel like, we're six weeks ago.
We're living in the now. The now is after he thought about it, Donald Trump dumped Matt Gaetz and got Pam Bondi. And she's going to be an amazing Attorney General. And Matt Gaetz thought better of it, and he resigned from Congress, and we'll see what he does.
Regarding his political future. I mean, anybody can run. The voters have to look at your whole record and decide what to do. I would assume, like, I'm no super-genius, but I would assume having a report like this hanging out there over your head, you'd have to explain it, when you ran for Congress. And it would probably be problematic if some of the other people involved in the report came forward. But that's for him to decide. And yes, I really -- really have no idea what he's going to do.
FINNEY: Well just--
SIDNER: All right. Scott Jennings. FINNEY: Yes.
SIDNER: Karen Finney. We're going to have to leave it there.
FINNEY: That's OK.
SIDNER: Thank you both.
FINNEY: Merry Christmas.
SIDNER: Appreciate it. Merry Christmas to both of you.
All right. We've got a lot more ahead. CEO murder suspect, Luigi Mangione, in court, pleading not guilty to the state's charges. His lawyer blasting officials, including New York's mayor. Hear what she had to say.
And there is breaking news tonight, on Bill Clinton, why the former President has been hospitalized.
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(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SIDNER: Breaking tonight. Former President Bill Clinton has been admitted to Georgetown University Hospital, in Washington, for testing and observation after, a spokesman says, he developed a fever.
We saw him active on the campaign trail, during the 2024 election. And he's had a steady travel schedule since then, promoting his new book.
The 78-year-old is said to be fine and in good spirits.
A speedy recovery to him on this holiday week.
All right. Tonight, House Speaker Mike Johnson is on shaky ground, and some Republicans are grumbling about his leadership.
Just a 11 days from now, on January 3rd, the 119th Congress will be sworn in. The first order of business for the new House will be electing the Speaker, one of the most powerful positions in Washington, just third in line to the presidency, by the way.
Throughout history, House speakers have marshaled members in such a way that could help make or even derail a President's agenda.
But in the wake of last week's funding fiasco, Johnson has already lost one Republican, Tom Massie of Kentucky.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: You told me earlier this week that you -- that Speaker Johnson does not have your vote on January 3rd. Is that still the case?
REP. THOMAS MASSIE (R-KY): Even more so. RAJU: Yes.
MASSIE: He doesn't have my vote.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SIDNER: Johnson can't afford to lose any more GOP support, if he wants to stay Speaker.
But tonight, the odds aren't looking so good. One lawmaker telling "Politico," "No one thinks he's strong. No one says, 'Damn, this guy's a fighter.'" While another said, "I don't see how Johnson survives."
More perspective now from my Republican source tonight. Former Utah congressman, Chris Stewart.
[21:20:00]
Congressman, thank you so much for being.
If the Speaker is voted out, and that is what the Congress has to deal with, first thing, doesn't this show that Republicans are the party of chaos?
CHRIS STEWART, FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE (R-UTAH): Well, look, I wish it was that simple. But the reality is, is it's not. We've seen this again and again and again. I mean, look, being the Republican Speaker of the House is the worst job in the universe, actually.
Miss Pelosi had a united front. She kept her party together. The Republicans are different. They really are kind of political entrepreneurs, and many of them will do what they want to do, regardless of the pressure from leadership. And again, we saw that -- we saw that in the last couple of years. We saw, obviously, with Kevin McCarthy.
I think Mike's going to be fine. I think that some of these individuals who have voiced concern are going to come around. I think there's two things.
One is, Mike has earned the respect of most of the Conference. And even those who say they're not going to vote for him, like Tom Massie, who's a good friend of mine, I know that Tom likes the Speaker. I know that he respects him. Now, he disagrees with some of his leadership decisions. But I think Mike has earned the respect of almost the entire Conference.
And one more thing. It's important to keep in mind, they have voted on this already. The Republican Congress -- or Congress, voted in November, and Mike won that election for Speaker, unanimously. So, some of them may change their minds, but I really think that they'll come around. And I think President Trump is going to put some pressure on some of them. Again, I think Mike is going to be the next Speaker of the House.
SIDNER: You think he's going to say -- as this funding battle was sort of unfolding before our eyes, and there was this bipartisan agreement that was blown up, first by Elon Musk, and then by Donald Trump.
Trump was saying at the time that Johnson will remain Speaker if, and I'm quoting here, he acts decisively and tough on the spending bill.
In the end, though, Johnson wasn't able to give Trump one of the things he wanted, which is the debt ceiling hike, during the Biden administration. Do you think that that might cost him Trump's backing? Because so far, we haven't heard a lot from Trump, on--
STEWART: No.
SIDNER: --the Speaker.
STEWART: Yes, I don't think that it will cost him his backing from the President-elect.
I think President Trump knows that the Congress is a different animal. I know -- I know that he understands, especially being a Speaker with a one- or two-vote majority, I mean, there's just very few people who could command every one of those individuals to vote the way they want them to vote. They're just not going to. And I think the President understands it.
I do think the President agrees with what the Speaker did. And as they took this very large, this omnibus bill, as you know, 1,300 pages. People didn't have a chance to read it. Again, we've seen that before. They trimmed it down to 100-and-something pages, something they could digest. And I think the President appreciates the Speaker's leadership on that.
So, I think he turned what could have been a potential weakness into actually a strength by being able to pass something, with bipartisan support, by the way, that was a simpler bill and more aligned with what the President, I think, expected, and what a lot of the American people were hoping for as well.
SIDNER: All right. I do want to ask you about this. It was reported that Trump had considered you to be his Director of National Intelligence, before settling on Tulsi Gabbard, whom you served with in Congress. You also know Kash Patel, Trump's pick for FBI director.
What do you say to people who are critics, or those who are worried, about Kash Patel who question whether he or Gabbard are right for the job?
STEWART: Yes, I think Kash is actually a great choice for the FBI director.
I've known Kash for 10 years. I have tremendous respect for him. And by the way, I didn't know him as a partisan individual. When he was Chief Counsel on the work we were doing on the Intelligence committee, we didn't talk politics. It was something quite different than that.
But this is someone who, I think, rightly believes that the FBI overstepped their bounds. They clearly did. They clearly took steps that were deeply troubling, I think, to most Americans. And you know the litany of them, I don't need to repeat all of those.
But I think Kash understands, Hey, the FBI is a valuable tool. It obviously is one of the key components of law enforcement. But there's no question as well that the leadership in the FBI lost their way, in the last seven or eight years. That needs to be reformed.
By the way, I have members of my family, and other friends, who are just line FBI agents, guys down in the trenches, and they have reached out to me and says, Hey, we're kind of cheering for Kash. We're kind of embarrassed by some of the things that our leadership did.
And I think a lot of the -- again, just the agents, who are doing the work and chasing the bad guys, I think a lot of those guys are hoping that Kash is successful. And I have every reason to believe that he will be.
[21:25:00]
SIDNER: Congressman, there is this issue, though, of Patel's 2022 book, and some of the things that he's said. The book called "Government Gangsters." He listed 60 potential targets for, basically, for retribution in a new Trump administration.
I mean, should the man who is in charge of the FBI that has that kind of power have an enemies list?
STEWART: Yes, well, it -- respectfully, I would disagree with two phrases that you used. One is retribution. I would use accountability. And I certainly wouldn't call it an enemies list.
But look, if I sat down with Kash, and he and I talked, I think together, we could come up with a list of individuals that we know abused the power that was given to them. There's just no question about that.
And if you doubt that, then look at the I.G. report. The Inspector General Horowitz, who was very, very clear about some of the abuse that some of these agents did, not just on Republicans, but on American people broadly.
And I think it's OK to say, Hey, look, we know some of these individuals took these types of actions. We should try to hold them accountable.
I think that's what Kash is trying to do. I mean, again, it's not an enemies list. It's not like, Hey, these guys hurt my feelings, or, These guys disagreed with my politics. I think he views it as, these guys abused their power.
And once again, you can't give the FBI the kind of power they have, and then just kind of say, Hey, go do what you want. We trust you. We're never going to hold accountability.
There should be accountability. That accountability has to come from Congress. And that's been a very, very frustrating thing to do over the last several years, because there hasn't been any accountability. That's, I think, just essential to maintain that trust with the FBI.
SIDNER: Former Congressman, Chris Stewart, thank you so much for joining us. Appreciate it.
STEWART: Thank you, Sara. Yes.
SIDNER: Not guilty. The first words the public has heard from accused CEO killer, Luigi Mangione, in court.
But his attorney had a lot more to say, slamming police, and the New York Mayor, for the dramatic scenes they created, when he was brought back to the city of his alleged crime.
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(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SIDNER: Suspected CEO murderer, Luigi Mangione, made his first appearance in New York State Court today, with this plea on murder and terror charges.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LUIGI MANGIONE, ALLEGED CEO KILLER: Not guilty.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SIDNER: You heard his voice there, for the first time, on these charges in state court.
The 26-year-old, accused of killing UnitedHealthcare CEO, Brian Thompson, is facing 11 state counts, including murder in the first degree, as well as weapon and forgery charges.
Today, Mangione's attorney is taking issue with last week's now- infamous perp walk, as we call it, in which heavily-armed officers, and even the New York City Mayor, paraded Mangione before cameras.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAREN FRIEDMAN AGNIFILO, LUIGI MANGIONE'S ATTORNEY: I'm very concerned about my client's right to a fair trial.
Like every other defendant, he is entitled to a presumption of innocence. But unfortunately, the way this has been handled so far, his rights are being violated.
He's a young man, and he is being treated like a human ping-pong ball between two warring jurisdictions here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SIDNER: Let's discuss with my legal eagles and law enforcement sources.
John Miller, former Deputy Commissioner of Intelligence and Counterterrorism for the NYPD.
And Renato Stabile, attorney and jury consultant.
Thank you gentlemen, both for being here on this Christmas Eve-Eve.
JOHN MILLER, FORMER DEPUTY COMM. OF INTELLIGENCE & COUNTERTERRORISM, NYPD, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Eve. Yes.
SIDNER: I hate saying that. I'm going to stop saying that. It's annoying.
All right, Renato, I want to talk to you about the couple of things that--
RENATO STABILE, ATTORNEY & JURY CONSULTANT: Sure.
SIDNER: --that Karen Agnifilo brought up, that she took issue with.
One was that there are two competing cases, the federal case and the state case, with at least one similar charge. And that she feels that this case has been politicized, and he has been sort of given this status, with all of these officers around him, the spectacle of it all making, in her eyes, making him look guilty. She came out of the block, fighting.
What do you make of her concerns?
STABILE: Look, they are justified concerns. But the bottom line is, will he receive a constitutionally-fair trial? Are his due process rights being violated?
Remember, his trial is a year, if not two years away, at least. So yes, is it very highly unusual to see the Mayor engage in a perp walk? But we see this all this time with high-profile defendants. I think by the time we get to trial, that type of pre-trial publicity that you saw from the perp walk, at least, will have dissipated.
SIDNER: I do want to ask you, John, because you have been on this case since the beginning, and getting information about it.
There have been so many layers of security around him. Today, I was just counting, because he was walking into court, as we were doing our show this morning. And there were at least 10 officers, I think, a couple of detectives, holding his arms. He's in shackles. He can't really go anywhere quickly.
Is this normal for a defendant of this sort of notoriety?
MILLER: So, no, not really. But the process has been altered here.
SIDNER: OK.
MILLER: What did Karen Friedman Agnifilo say in court? It's the ping- pong battle between.
So this arraignment was supposed to happen, Friday. By then, he would have been booked through the normal process. He would have been brought to court. He would have been back in the cell block. He would have come into court from a side door and left the courtroom the same way. It would all be choreographed strictly as normal.
In this case, the federal authorities, at the direction of the United States Attorney, body-snatched him. Before his arraignment in state court, they arraigned him in federal court on a complaint, not an indictment. They could have waited until after this whole process--
SIDNER: Yes.
MILLER: --and then done the same thing. You'd have to ask them what the reasoning was, to get ahead of it.
But because of that -- he's in federal custody now. So to be arraigned on this indictment, they had to get a writ from the judge, saying, Can we borrow him, to let the wheels of justice turn on the state level?
SIDNER: Yes.
[21:35:00]
MILLER: The Feds had to say, You can have him for this period, and when you're done, bring him back.
So they had to bring him in a different way, walk him down the hallway. They had to have him in custody, in the shackles that were the federal requirements, because he's still their prisoner, technically. And they brought him back that way.
At some point, to Karen Friedman Agnifilo's point, they're going to have to settle out, All right, who's--
SIDNER: Who's going first?
MILLER: --who's going first? Probably the state. Who's going to maintain custody of him? Are they going to keep switching him back and forth? So, I understand her frustration.
SIDNER: Yes.
STABILE: There may be some benefit to him being in federal custody. Because now he's at the MDC.
SIDNER: Right.
STABILE: If he were just in state custody, he'd be at Rikers. And I think, from his perspective, he'd probably rather be at the MDC. I mean, neither are great. But if you have your choice, and in terms of lawyer access and all that, MDC is a little bit better.
MILLER: That's right.
SIDNER: John is wagging his head--
STABILE: Right? Yes. SIDNER: --up and down, very vigorously.
STABILE: And he's in a special unit, which is even better.
SIDNER: Right.
Renato, I want to ask you. Usually, defense attorneys, and we heard this from Agnifilo, they're the ones that are really, really concerned about a jury, especially in a case like this, where there's so much evidence that the public has been shown, whether it be video or other things. And they're worried about it being skewed against their client because of this pre-trial publicity.
But in this case, with all the social media, 90-plus percent of it is positive towards Mangione. And not just towards him for his looks, et cetera, but towards what he did. Is it prosecutors, who are the ones, who are going to have a difficulty, picking a jury?
STABILE: Look, I don't see an acquittal on just a straight-up not guilty verdict. I think there's going to be some kind of psychiatric defense interposed here--
SIDNER: Yes.
STABILE: --and maybe not guilty by reason of insanity.
I think the prosecution does have to be concerned about a stealth juror, somebody that goes in with an agenda. But that's extremely rare. And somebody would have to basically lie their way onto this jury, in order to be a holdout and hang the jury. In which case, the case will get tried again.
SIDNER: When you -- when you look at this, John. Yesterday, there was -- well, I want to ask you this. When you're watching all of this, and as you're seeing this kind of play out.
He's in court. He's smiling. We've seen him sort of smile at the cameras, as he's walking in. And then he's sitting in court.
And there is a whole apparatus there that is watching, including women who have been very supportive, there in court, to see what's going on. You've got people outside with signs.
You've seen this scenario before. But how unusual is this? And could this have a real impact with the people showing up for court?
MILLER: It's very unusual. I mean, we can go back to cases like Bernhard Goetz, the subway vigilante, where the circumstances are different.
In a case, where it's a cold-blooded murder, walking up to an individual, shooting him in the back, the father of two children, for a political agenda. If you switched from health care, which is really what has everybody upset--
SIDNER: Yes. MILLER: --to, I don't know, it was the Israeli ambassador? People might feel differently about whether it's terrorism or not terrorism.
But you can see, and this is more Renato's department, what they've done with the defendant is they got him a blue quarter-zip for the last appearance, and khakis and a white shirt. Today, the maroon sweater.
SIDNER: Fresh haircut.
MILLER: And you know the -- what they're trying to -- what they're trying to erase from the public consciousness is that image of the shadowy figure, with the silencer, firing the shot, the hood and the mask and so on. They're trying to remake him into, Well, he looks like as nice a guy as the people on the internet says he is.
STABILE: And they're doing, I think, what you would -- they should be doing.
In terms of the attention he's getting from, I guess, women showing up in court. I was thinking back to Robert Chambers, is a defendant who people in New York know very well--
MILLER: Good example.
STABILE: --from the 1980s.
SIDNER: Yes.
STABILE: Where, in fact, women did show up to court because he was very good-looking, well-educated. Similarities to this case.
SIDNER: It is interesting. And the whole world is watching this case, at this point. I mean, it will be publicized, no matter what happens. We will see what happens as the case goes through both courts.
John Miller. Renato Stabile. Thank you both so much for--
MILLER: Thanks.
STABILE: Thanks.
SIDNER: --coming in and hanging out on this holiday week.
MILLER: And Christmas Eve-Eve.
SIDNER: Yes. Thanks, John.
MILLER: Sorry.
SIDNER: You had to do it, didn't you?
MILLER: I know.
SIDNER: All right. Thank you, gentlemen. A new update on a scandal that is rocking Hollywood. A key player in the alleged smear campaign against Blake Lively is pushing back, after the actress accused her co-star and director of sexual harassment and retaliation. That story is ahead.
[21:40:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SIDNER: Tonight, the publicist accused of helping orchestrate a smear campaign against Blake Lively, after the actress complained of sexual misconduct on the set of her latest film, says there was no such smear campaign.
Publicist Jennifer Abel represents director and actor, Justin Baldoni. Lively accused him, and a producer, of sexual harassment, while they worked on the movie, "It Ends with Us," which, by the way, is about domestic violence.
On Friday, Lively filed a civil rights complaint, accusing Baldoni of sexual harassment and retaliation.
The New York Times obtained the complaint, which includes Lively accusing Baldoni of improvised unwanted kissing, among other things. It says, Lively raised her concerns, about both Baldoni and producer Jamey Heath, in a meeting during filming.
The complaint then alleges, after she complained, Baldoni and his team then tried to quote, "Destroy" Lively's reputation with a retaliatory social manipulation campaign.
In a statement to CNN, Baldoni and Heath's attorney deny the claims, calling them "Completely false, outrageous and intentionally salacious with an intent to publicly hurt and rehash a narrative in the media."
Joining me now is:
Kara Swisher, host of the podcasts, "On with Kara (ph) Swisher" and "Pivot."
[21:45:00]
And Areva Martin, civil rights attorney.
Areva, first to you.
Thank you, ladies, also for being here, on this holiday week.
First to you. Now that there has been this complaint filed, a civil rights complaint, is this a precursor to a lawsuit?
AREVA MARTIN, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Absolutely, Sara, we should expect to see a lawsuit.
And I can tell you, this is a very detailed, 80-page complaint that has been filed with lots of details about the sexual harassment that Blake Lively said she experienced, while working on a set of this movie, from Baldoni. Everything, from unwanted kissing, to conversations about the sex life of the producers involved in this movie, as well as conversations about pornography, showing of pornographic pictures. So, it's a pretty salacious complaint.
And then the allegations of the smear campaign, about retaliation for making complaints about sexual harassment in the workplace, and the creation of a hostile work environment.
SIDNER: Kara, we did see serious backlash, against Lively, on social media, during the film's promotion.
KARA SWISHER, CNN CONTRIBUTOR, HOST, "ON WITH KARA SWISHER" & "PIVOT" PODCASTS: Right.
SIDNER: It was significant, for this part of her complaint. It isn't just a he-said she-said. There are, as Areva mentioned, text messages, allegedly--
SWISHER: Sure.
SIDNER: --between Baldoni's publicist and crisis manager.
SWISHER: Yes.
SIDNER: Here's just part of one of them. It's basically, All Press is so overwhelming We've confused people So much -- we've -- mixed messaging. It's actually really funny.
That's just one piece of some of the stuff.
SWISHER: Yes.
SIDNER: I mean, what do you -- what do you make of this when you see this -- these are two women, by the way--
SWISHER: Right, yes.
SIDNER: --standing behind Baldoni.
SWISHER: Which is heinous.
SIDNER: Yes.
SWISHER: Well, you know, Hollywood and lots of places are full of crisis managers.
What happens is, there was a PR person for Wayfarer, I think, which is a company he owns with others.
SIDNER: Yes.
SWISHER: And then they hired a crisis firm, when they probably anticipated that this was going to happen, given her complaints that had been kept quiet, right, that she was trying to change things. And I think they -- often, these people go into overdrive and create all kinds of havoc.
And one of the things that's important to remember here is they don't have to do much. You just have to start to amplify things, on social media, in a very small way. And with people desperate for the story, people search and then others provide it. And so, you can -- you can gin things up pretty quickly and pretty cheaply online, and you don't have to do much.
And I think that's what they were talking about. If you create sort of questions about someone, especially a woman. It happened with Amber Heard, which was outsized, given even -- even on the best of days, both of them act badly. But Amber Heard got the -- got the brunt of this. I think it was really, it's very easy to do this to someone, especially a woman.
Years ago, I did an interview with Gwyneth Paltrow, when she was attacked, really, heavily online. I don't know if you remember that, but it was quite something to see. And these things can feel like a pile-on.
And I think this -- this pre-lawsuit, I guess it is, is really detailed in terms of how these people behaved.
SIDNER: Yes, with the text messages, as some of their evidence.
Baldoni's publicist, we should mention, Jennifer Abel, posted messages on Facebook which CNN have confirmed are authentic, that in part, say, What the cherry-picked messages don't include, although not shockingly, as it doesn't fit the narrative, is that there was no smear implemented. No negative press was ever facilitated, no social combat plan, although we were prepared for it as it's our job to be ready for any scenario, but we didn't have to implement anything because the internet was doing the work for us.
Kara, when you see what happened, and you look at these--
SWISHER: Yes.
SIDNER: --and you look at these text messages. We don't know if we've seen all of them, to be fair. What do you make of that statement?
SWISHER: OK, we'll see. We'll have to see, won't we? We'll have to see if there was something happening here.
My point is, you don't have to do much, right? You don't have to do much of anything, to create these kind of narratives around someone. And again, you've seen it time and again, always aimed at women, always in this same style.
And I remember, at the time, thinking, what's happening here? There's something really unusual, because I didn't feel, instantly. And by the way, it could be just regular people doing it. But these people did nothing to stop it. They did nothing to not encourage it.
And of course, they put him all over the place, and all kinds of women-friendly environments. He got an award from a group that was very pro-woman. He had a podcast with someone, who's well-known feminist, very I-love-women kind of thing.
And, at the very least, his behavior on the set that she's alleging is pretty terrible.
And as she begins to prove it, I think, I'd be very quiet if I was a publicist right now. But they can't help themselves, I guess.
SIDNER: Areva, what is next here? What should we expect the next thing to be in this case?
MARTIN: Well, a couple of things can happen, Sara.
[21:50:00]
We often see these kinds of complaints filed. They become public complaints. And sometimes, these cases settle out of court very quickly, and we never know the results of the settlement, because there's a non-disclosure agreement, along with the settlement.
But other times, like in the Amber Heard-Johnny Depp case, there is a public trial, and we get to see the evidence that each side has.
And we've already seen some of the text messages, screenshots of messages from Blake Lively's team. I suspect there's a lot more that we haven't seen. And it's just, does the defendant in this case have the stomach for a public trial? But if not, this could settle very quickly out of court.
SIDNER: Kara Swisher. Areva Martin. Thank you both for coming in this evening.
SWISHER: Thank you.
SIDNER: Appreciate you.
MARTIN: Thanks.
SIDNER: Next. There's been a lot of talk of Elon Musk's influence. But now, President-elect Trump is finally weighing in on the chatter that Musk is actually the incoming President, or at least pulling the strings, not Donald Trump. That's ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:55:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: The new one is, President Trump has ceded the presidency to Elon Musk.
No, he's not going to be president, that I can tell you. And I'm safe. You know why? He can't be. He wasn't born in this country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SIDNER: Well, that is true. President-elect Trump is making very clear to supporters that he's the boss.
But one Trump ally has a new title for Elon Musk in mind, as his influence rockets in Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. TONY GONZALES (R-TX): It's kind of interesting. We have a president. We have a vice president. We have a speaker. It feels like as if Elon Musk is our prime minister.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SIDNER: OK.
My political sources are here with me. CNN Political Commentators, S.E. Cupp, and Paul Begala.
S.E., Trump may have been joking. He had a little giggle there. But him mentioning all this, do you think it's getting under his skin, judging from what you heard there, and that he brought it up?
S.E. CUPP, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, knowing Trump, the way we all know Trump, I do.
One thing he does not like to cede are headlines. And there are a lot of headlines, not just jokes, but headlines about Elon Musk's power and influence. And it's not just rhetorical influence.
The ascendancy of Elon Musk has all the markings of a plutocracy. This is a person, who used his money, and his position, to essentially help buy a president. And he's going to use that President to help push policies that benefit him, personally, professionally, financially, politically.
So this is -- you know, I think people are more fearful of Elon Musk's actual influence over policy, than they are just how close Donald Trump and Elon Musk are. He's allowed to have friends. But I think what's worrisome is that Elon Musk is not just seemingly influencing the Executive, but he apparently had some influence over the Legislative as well. Let's not get him close to the courts, or he'll have an impact over them as well.
SIDNER: Yes. I mean, we did see him the first to speak out against the bipartisan spending bill, and it ended up tanking it as well.
Paul. Democratic senator, Chris Coons, suggested to CNN that the Musk- Trump duo will essentially double the chaos in D.C. Can Democrats deal with that? How do they go about dealing with that potential scenario?
PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Oh, I think the way to deal with it is the way S.E. did, not the way Senator Coons did. I agree with everything S.E. said.
By the way, it's just always great to see her again. And you, Sara.
But the problem is not chaos. It's what S.E. said. It's plutocracy. This is government of the billionaires, by the billionaires, and for the billionaires. Axios has counted 11 billionaires that Trump has named to top position, a 11, for goodness sakes.
And what do they want to do? Well, they want to cut taxes for their fellow billionaires. They don't want to raise the minimum wage for working people. That's the way to go at this.
Trump won voters who make less than 50 grand a year. He, I'm sure, is very proud of that. He should be. I admire that. But if the Democrats want to win those folks back, they've got to make the case that they're better for the working-class.
This goes all the way back. The richest guy in the world in 1921 was Andrew Mellon. Warren Harding makes him Treasury secretary. What does Mellon do? He raises tariffs, which hits working people. He cuts taxes for the rich. He cuts taxes for corporations. We wind up in a Great Depression. And for the next 95 years, the Democrats win working-class voters, until a few weeks ago.
Democrats ought to be able to focus on the plutocracy. And that's exactly the problem here, is this is billionaires running our country for their interests.
SIDNER: All right, let's go from the President-elect, to the outgoing President Joe Biden. He has commuted the sentences of 37 of the 40 total federal death row inmates, who will now serve out life in prison.
This is a part of a move to blunt, frankly, Trump's plan to restart federal executions. In Trump's first term, there were, I think, 13 executions, more than any other president in modern history.
S.E., what do you make of this, the move from President Biden, and the fact that you're looking at a president to -- who let more people than any other president be killed under the federal guidelines?
CUPP: Well, I don't like capital punishment either. I've been sort of a lonely conservative over on that side of it. But -- so I'm with Biden there. But I don't believe using the power of the pardon is appropriate to make a political statement, as you're walking out the door.
But that be said, Sara, I don't -- there's not a pardon I've liked in a very, very long time. I think administrations, for decades, have been abusing that pardon power.
[22:00:00]
SIDNER: Just quickly. 37 out of the 40, the three that are still there, Paul, on death row, are the person who perpetrated -- Tsarnaev, who perpetrated the Boston bombing. Dylann Roof, who massacred people in a -- Black folks in a Black church. And Robert Bowers, who killed so many people in the Tree of Life synagogue.
You're seeing a very different President Biden.
We have to go now.
But 1994, he was very much for the -- and he's changed his mind. He says it's his faith. And he mentioned Donald Trump as well, coming in, and worrying about how many people he may put to death.
Paul Begala. S.E. Cupp. Thank you both so much for joining us.
And thank you for joining us.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" is next.
