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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
VP Harris Certifies Trump Victory, Four Years After Capitol Riot; Former Proud Boys Leader Asks Trump For Pardon; Trump Pushes Canada For 51st State As Trudeau Resigns. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired January 06, 2025 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: The thing I still can't believe, which I learned, from talking to somebody from his hometown, the day he died, that his mom actually delivered Rosalynn.
LESLEY STAHL, "60 MINUTES" CORRESPONDENT: Oh.
COOPER: And so, he actually saw Rosalynn. When he was 3-years-old, he came over to the house, looked over the bassinet at the newborn Rosalynn Carter.
STAHL: His mother delivered--
COOPER: Delivered.
STAHL: --Rosalynn Carter.
COOPER: His wife, yes.
STAHL: I don't think I ever knew that.
COOPER: Yes, it's incredible.
Lesley Stahl, it's such a pleasure to have you here. It's really an honor. Thank you.
STAHL: So nice to work with you.
COOPER: I know.
STAHL: In-person.
COOPER: I know. We cross in the hall all the time.
Thanks for your time. Appreciate it.
STAHL: Pleasure.
COOPER: The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Straight from THE SOURCE, tonight. Donald Trump's victory now official, here in Washington, as Vice President Harris oversees the certification of her own loss. The striking scenes of January 6th, four years apart.
Also tonight, a former member of the January 6th congressional committee will join me. Would he take a preemptive pardon from President Biden? And how will Democrats respond, when Republicans control everything here?
And after Canada's Prime Minister announced plans to step down, President-elect Trump needled the neighbor to the north. Make Canada the 51st state?
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
We're live in Washington, this evening, and you're looking at the United States Capitol tonight, where the most stunning political comeback, in modern American history, has now been certified by Congress, paving the way for Donald Trump to take back power, exactly two weeks from now.
It's an inauguration that many, including Republicans, felt was unthinkable, on the January 6th, four years ago. That's when this Capitol that you're looking at, on a snowy day, was a crime scene, under attack by a mob of Trump supporters.
Contrast today, with the sitting President in January 2021, publicly berating his own vice president, who was later rushed into hiding by the Secret Service, while rioters were threatening to hang him. And U.S. Capitol Police who had their guns drawn, as rioters were trying to break into the House chamber. Members of Congress, nearby, crouching in fear for their lives.
Those images are nearly the complete opposite of what we witnessed today. The person who lost the presidential election, this time, Vice President Harris, certified her own loss without any objections.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAMALA HARRIS (D), U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: Donald J. Trump of the State of Florida has received 312 votes. Kamala D. Harris--
(CHEERING)
(APPLAUSE)
HARRIS: Kamala D. Harris of the State of California, has received 226 votes.
(CHEERING)
(APPLAUSE)
HARRIS: This announcement of the state of the vote by the President of the Senate shall be deemed a sufficient declaration of the persons elected President and Vice President of the United States. (END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: While so much has changed, in these four years, perhaps what is one of the most striking is the evolution of Trump himself, on the attack that was waged by his supporters.
Once upon a time, not that long ago, he described it as a calamity, and said, those who attacked the Capitol on that day, quote, "Will pay."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND CURRENT PRESIDENTIAL- ELECT: I am outraged by the violence, lawlessness, and mayhem.
To those who broke the law, you will pay.
There is never a justification for violence. No excuses, no exceptions.
I was shocked and deeply saddened by the calamity, at the Capitol, last week.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: But it wasn't that long, before that condemnation that you heard there, then turned into a repeated effort to rewrite history.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: They were there with love in their heart. That was an unbelievable -- and it was a beautiful day.
COLLINS: Over a 140 officers were injured that day.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: President-elect Trump, as a candidate, even opened the first major rally of his 2024 campaign, by paying tribute to the what is now known as the J6 Choir, hand over his heart during the national anthem.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Justice For All, featuring President Donald J. Trump and the J6 Choir.
(MUSIC FROM "J6 PRISON CHOIR")
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: And tonight, as Trump is preparing to reenter office, in just two weeks from now, he's also promising pardons for many of those rioters that you saw storming the Capitol, that day, while also vowing payback for those who investigated his and his allies' actions on January 6th.
My political sources to start us off tonight are:
Former Biden White House communications director, Kate Bedingfield.
Former Trump campaign adviser, David Urban.
And former deputy press secretary in the Trump White House, Sarah Matthews.
[21:05:00]
And Sarah, I just -- you know, it was what happened four years ago today, that led you to leave the Trump White House. I wonder, when you see what happened today, and just are thinking back on those, that day, four years ago, how you're reflecting on all of this?
SARAH MATTHEWS, FORMER DEPUTY PRESS SECRETARY FOR PRES. TRUMP: Yes, it's so crazy. As today, watching the events, it felt like a normal day, normal proceedings. And Trump was afforded this respect that he did not give to President Biden when he came into office. And it was good that it was a normal day. That's a good thing for America.
But then I think back to four years ago. And if you would have told me that when I resigned that evening, that four years later, Trump would be awarded the presidency and be back into office and have this major political comeback? I don't think I would have believed you.
Because I would have been looking at what all those Republican lawmakers were saying, that evening. They were done with Trump. I mean, you can look through the archives of the posts that Speaker Mike Johnson put out, Elise Stefanik, Kevin McCarthy, Mitch McConnell, the list goes on.
And so then to think the facts of that day did not change, but the politics did, for those people. They chose to whitewash the events of that day and to welcome him back into power. And I think it's a disgrace.
And I will say too, one thing I want to note that I found particularly striking was today, Donald Trump posted a photo of his crowd that was assembled on The Ellipse. And it's because he treats this day as a celebratory occasion.
I look at it as one of the darkest days in our nation's history. I think it's a stain on America. But he, as you showed his words, he thinks of it as a day of love. I think of it as a day that we saw 140 police officers be brutally beaten. We saw the first U.S. President disrupt our peaceful transfer of power, and people lost their lives that day as a result.
COLLINS: Well, and you make a good point about the Republicans, and how they view this, because a lot of them still don't view it the way Trump does, as a day of love. I mean, several were talking to Manu Raju today about that, exactly.
But David, what struck me, as you're the Republican here at this table, in the terms of-- MATTHEWS: Still a Republican. Just anti-Trump.
COLLINS: Still a Republican. Just not a Trump Republican.
David, safe to say you are a Trump Republican.
DAVID URBAN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER TRUMP CAMPAIGN ADVISER, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Yes.
COLLINS: But I was looking at, as this was being certified today, Senator JD Vance, obviously, the Vice President-elect, was seated there in the chamber. Next to him was Senator Bill Cassidy, who was one of the seven Republicans who voted to impeach, or to convict Donald Trump, after his Senate trial, after his impeachment. There he was fist-bumping, JD Vance.
And I just want to listen to what Senator Cassidy had to say after that vote.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. BILL CASSIDY (R-LA): Our Constitution and our country is more important than any one person. I voted to convict President Trump because he is guilty.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Had Trump been convicted, had more Republicans in the Senate voted the way that Senator Cassidy did, he would not have been eligible -- he wouldn't have been able to run, this time around. He wouldn't have been able to be president again.
What does it say to you, though, about how Republicans are viewing Trump's reemergence into Washington?
URBAN: But he wasn't convicted in the Senate.
COLLINS: Well, if Senator Cassidy had his druthers--
URBAN: And he wasn't--
COLLINS: --he would have been.
URBAN: Oh, but he wasn't. He had a trial, right? He was impeached, which there's a political process. He wasn't -- he wasn't convicted in the Senate.
It was this -- this issue of democracy and January 6th has been litigated, not only in the court system, for the big, long investigation, maybe someone heard of it, Jack Smith, I don't know if anybody remembers that name, right? That went on for years. Nothing came of it. It kind of fell apart.
It was litigated in the electoral system. We had an entire election, where Democrats ran on democracy and January 6th, and the American people dismissed it as well. So I think, hopefully right, we -- I agree, like, the beating of police officers, Donald Trump said it himself, Violence never acceptable. Those people that beat the police officers, that injured a police officer, should go to jail. There's no ifs ands or buts.
But there's a completely different story here on the other side of the Capitol, where the -- where the stanchions removed, where people were allowed in, right, they were -- doors were opened, some of those people--
COLLINS: Well the cops testified later that--
URBAN: Listen--
COLLINS: --they were outnumbered.
URBAN: Listen, you -- the outnumbered--
COLLINS: To be fair to the police officers.
URBAN: Listen, let's watch the video. I challenge anybody in America, go to the -- go to YouTube. You can watch all this.
COLLINS: But they were outnumbered.
URBAN: They were not. They were walking by. Kaitlan, there were some people. Listen, the people who were dragged, there were police officers who were beaten on the steps. It's a crime. Those guys should go to jail.
The other side, you look at the people, they didn't seem frightened or outnumbered. They're letting people in. So they're--
KATE BEDINGFIELD, FORMER BIDEN WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: David, there are video of people crying out for help. I mean, there's you--
URBAN: I'm not, Kate--
BEDINGFIELD: I don't think you can discount--
URBAN: I'm not -- I'm not discounting that.
BEDINGFIELD: I don't think you can discount that there was violence that day--
URBAN: I'm not discounting. I'm just saying that the crowd--
BEDINGFIELD: --and that the crowd was violent.
URBAN: There were people in the crowd that were violent. But to say the entire crowd was violent is completely not correct. I mean, look, let's look at prosecutions. Of that, look--
COLLINS: But I didn't -- no, I didn't say that.
URBAN: No, let's look at the prosecutions. Of that--
COLLINS: But hold on. I didn't--
BEDINGFIELD: Yes.
URBAN: No, no, no, but she's trying to say that--
COLLINS: David, I didn't say that.
URBAN: --that I said the discount the violence. Not discounting there was violence there.
Look, watch it here. But you show that crowd on the mall, right? How many people got prosecuted by the FBI -- by the Department of Justice? There were 1,500 people that were prosecuted. So that picture that Trump puts out on the mall, of all those people--
COLLINS: OK, but hang on. What--
URBAN: And let's just say that all those people--
COLLINS: OK, David--
URBAN: --weren't violent protests.
[21:10:00]
COLLINS: I'm going to let you make your point. But I want to pull that video back up that we were just showing, because I want you to make your point, because I think a lot of people share your perspective. No but the--
URBAN: Yes, those people should go to jail, right?
COLLINS: Well we were just showing what the--
URBAN: Easy. Easy.
COLLINS: --the barricades, and the officers. Those were not officers, just letting them walk in.
URBAN: No, no, no, go to the -- but go to the -- go to the Supreme Court side, right?
COLLINS: Yes, I know the video you're talking about.
URBAN: No, no, this is -- this is -- these people should go to jail. The people in the Supreme Court side, however, the doors--
MATTHEWS: They were trespassing, though.
URBAN: They were -- trespassing--
BEDINGFIELD: And Trump is talking about--
MATTHEWS: Either way, they were trespassing. (CROSSTALK)
URBAN: OK. OK, listen. There's a difference between--
MATTHEWS: They still broke the law, David.
URBAN: There's a difference between trespassing and physical violence.
BEDINGFIELD: But Trump is actually--
MATTHEWS: I know. But don't you think they should--
BEDINGFIELD: --talking about pardoning some of these people.
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: Shouldn't they make an example out of these people, though?
URBAN: You should -- some of the people -- some of the people who trespassed--
MATTHEWS: Like, this was wrong, they shouldn't be allowed to trespass.
URBAN: Everybody should not be treated equally. They were violent criminals, right? They shouldn't be treated equally. There are people, these people who are beating the police, should go to jail. There's no excuse for it, right? There's no excuse for it. Some of the people on the other on the -- on the--
MATTHEWS: Well, do you think then those people should get pardons? Should those people get pardons?
URBAN: People that beat the police? No, shouldn't get pardon, no.
MATTHEWS: The people that Donald Trump is promising to pardon?
URBAN: He didn't promise to pardon everybody. He says he's going to promise -- he's going to look at it case-by-case basis. Let's just be factual. Those are the words, right? And to be factual, the only person that died on January 6th, there was one person who died, Ashli Babbitt was the only one person who's died.
MATTHEWS: And she was there because Donald Trump--
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: --David.
BEDINGFIELD: No, and a police officer lost his life.
URBAN: No, no, wait. No, wait. No, wait--
(CROSSTALK)
BEDINGFIELD: No, no, no. No, wait a minute.
URBAN: No, no, no, no, no, no--
BEDINGFIELD: You're arguing because--
URBAN: On January 6--
BEDINGFIELD: --he didn't die on the 6th, and he passed away on the 7th.
URBAN: I'm just saying, we're talking about who died on January 6th.
BEDINGFIELD: That is -- that is beyond splitting hairs.
URBAN: Kate.
BEDINGFIELD: That's -- come on.
URBAN: It's not splitting hairs.
BEDINGFIELD: Come on. You don't actually--
URBAN: It's factual.
BEDINGFIELD: You don't actually believe--
URBAN: There's one, the person who died.
MATTHEWS: And why--
BEDINGFIELD: --for--
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: Why else was she there? She wouldn't have been there that day if Donald Trump didn't spread conspiracy theories--
URBAN: Listen.
MATTHEWS: --about an election that he knew--
URBAN: Listen.
MATTHEWS: --was not stolen.
URBAN: Again.
MATTHEWS: And he told those people to go to the Capitol.
URBAN: One person.
MATTHEWS: And so she was there as a result--
URBAN: One person.
MATTHEWS: --of him telling her to be there.
URBAN: One person that was killed on January 6th. MATTHEWS: She would not have died if it weren't for Donald Trump to accept the results--
URBAN: She wouldn't have died--
MATTHEWS: --of the election. And you know this.
URBAN: --if the police officer didn't wrongfully shoot her. I wish January 6--
BEDINGFIELD: That--
URBAN: Listen. I wish the January 6 committee would have done a full investigation for the American people to see and hear.
BEDINGFIELD: But the--
URBAN: Watch this. And again, don't listen to David Urban, American people.
COLLINS: But then--
URBAN: Hold on. Don't listen to me, American people.
COLLINS: But David, can I--
URBAN: Go to the video. It's all -- New York Times put this out. It's all over YouTube.
COLLINS: Can I ask you--
URBAN: Watch what happened to Ashli Babbitt.
COLLINS: --looking at this -- yes, and you can talk about Ashli Babbitt. But that doesn't discount the other actions that day. But can I ask you--
URBAN: I'm not discounting it.
COLLINS: --as someone who advocated for Trump's reelection.
URBAN: Yes, go ahead.
COLLINS: Obviously, I think your perspective is important, because I think there's a lot of people out in the United States who share that. But as you're looking for why Trump was reelected, him going into office, do you think it is a smart move for him to make one of his first actions, pardoning some of those people?
URBAN: No.
COLLINS: And I know, you say case-by-case basis. But we don't still have a clear picture yet on--
URBAN: No, listen, I think--
COLLINS: --how many people were--
URBAN: --I think what the President was elected on is securing the border, lowering costs, ending forever wars, right? I can give you a long list of things that precede pardoning some of these criminals of January 6th.
COLLINS: So, you don't agree it should be day one?
URBAN: I don't agree it should be day one, no. I think there are lots of things the American people care about much, much more so than January 6th.
COLLINS: Yes.
URBAN: Because, listen, not only did it not poll on the Democratic side, but on the Republican side. People want their lives improved tomorrow. They want to get rid of this administration, this current administration, as quickly as possible. They want prices to go down. They want their lives to be better. And that's what Donald Trump was put into Office for.
BEDINGFIELD: But there's also--
COLLINS: Speaking of the transition--
BEDINGFIELD: --I would argue--
COLLINS: Well, I want to talk about the transition that's underway. Because obviously, we've seen this process moving. It got up to a bit of a slow start.
We heard from Trump today on the transition of itself. He accused Biden of making it as difficult as possible. Here's what he told Hugh Hewitt.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: They'll do everything they can to make it as difficult as possible. You know, they talk about a transition. They're always saying oh, no, we want to have a smooth transition from party to party, for, you know, of government. Well, they're making it really difficult. They're throwing everything they can in the way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: We'll say the irony there is, is quite notable, given obviously--
BEDINGFIELD: Yes.
COLLINS: --you were there for the transition, last time.
BEDINGFIELD: Yes, I will say -- first of all, there's reporting in Axios today that Jeff Zients, the current White House Chief of Staff, hosted a dinner at his house for Susie Wiles. So, the idea that there is some sort of-- COLLINS: With Trump's other Chief of Staff--
BEDINGFIELD: Yes. Yes.
COLLINS: --Reince Priebus, was there.
BEDINGFIELD: Yes. So, let's just note that right away.
But also, yes, during the transition to the Biden administration from the Trump administration, our experience was the Trump team would not allow what are called landing teams, the groups that go into the agencies, ahead of the inauguration, to start doing the planning in between the election and the inauguration, to start gathering information to understand where things -- where things stand. The Trump team did not allow a lot of those landing teams to come in.
And remember, we were -- we were in the midst of and coming out of a once-in-a-generation pandemic. So we had significant public health challenges that the Trump administration was not willfully -- willingly, I should say, handing over information to the Biden team.
So, the idea that Trump would go out and argue that Biden is making this difficult? I don't think that carries a lot of water.
COLLINS: Well and--
BEDINGFIELD: I got to be honest with you.
COLLINS: --in that interview with Susie Wiles, with Axios, which is notable, because we don't often hear from her on the record or on camera. She's Trump's incoming Chief of Staff. David, you know her.
She had a comment that stood out to me, Sarah, where she was saying that, "I don't welcome people who want to work solo or be a star." She said, "My team and I will not tolerate backbiting, second-guessing inappropriately, or drama."
[21:15:00]
That would be remarkably different than the early days, especially of the Trump administration round one, when there was such infighting among his senior staff.
MATTHEWS: Yes. I mean, I think what else is she supposed to say? Of course, she doesn't want people who are backstabbers and trying to get the limelight, and be there for the wrong reasons. They want people who are loyalists. So, I think that's a good sentiment for her to have going in. But it will be interesting to see if she can execute on it.
Obviously, I will give credit where credit's due. This was a well-run campaign. They won. And everything I've heard about her is that she is a true professional. And so, if she's able to maintain that in the White House? Obviously running a campaign is a little bit different than running a White House. But I hope that she's able to do that, and run a tight ship, and prevent leaking and all these things, and have people who are competent in those roles. And so, I wish them well. URBAN: Well, I mean, that's how--
COLLINS: Well and David, this comes--
URBAN: --that's how the campaign was run, I mean. And I've known Susie since 2016. We were colleagues in the campaign. She's incredibly well- respected, both sides of the aisle. I think she'll be able to accomplish that. People have a great deal of respect for Susie.
COLLINS: What about with Republicans on the Hill? Because Trump is coming to Washington for President Carter's funeral. He'll be there on Thursday. Certainly something to watch. But the day before, I'm told he's going to be meeting with Senate Republican leadership, to talk about their agenda. There's a big divide in the party right now--
URBAN: Right.
COLLINS: --over get points on the board early, with doing two separate bills on his priorities. Or one bigger one, which is a fear from some Senate Republicans that maybe that's too dicey.
URBAN: Listen, I've worked on the Hill long time ago, right? It's never changed. Article One is the, you know, is the legislative branch, right? These -- they believe that they're co-equal branch of government, and they're going to have to work with the administration.
There are a lot of different opinions here, on tax cuts, on reducing the deficit, on spending. All these things are going to get wrapped up in a bill. So, does President Trump get one chance, reconciliation, or two chances?
It's hard to do one thing, once, the big thing once. It's even harder to do it twice. So they're going to have to get some consensus. Senator Thune is a very bright guy. Got the Speaker in there. Going to have to -- a lot of people rowing together here quickly.
COLLINS: Yes.
BEDINGFIELD: We had some of these same conversations at the start of the Biden administration. How you -- how you work with Congress, is a huge issue, coming right out of the gate.
URBAN: Yes.
COLLINS: Thanks everyone for a feisty panel to start off our night.
URBAN: It's all love. It's all good.
COLLINS: Up next. One of the worst offenders on January 6th, who is actually serving the longest sentence for that attack, now would like a pardon. The question is, will Trump grant one to the former Proud Boys leader?
This also comes as, tonight, a New York judge has rejected Trump's request to try to get out of his sentencing that's supposed to happen, this Friday. The question is, what do Trump's attorneys do next? [21:20:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: One of the most notorious convicted criminals from January 6th is now formally asking Donald Trump to let him out of prison.
Enrique Tarrio is serving a 22-year sentence in federal prison. He's the former leader of the Proud Boys who was convicted of seditious conspiracy. The judge who sentenced him called him, quote, "The ultimate leader" of the Proud Boys, and noted that he "had an outsized impact on the events" of January 6th.
My congressional source tonight, served on the House January 6 committee, and has just been reelected to House Democratic leadership. The Chair of the House Democratic Caucus, Congressman Pete Aguilar of California.
And it's great to have you here.
I want to ask you about Enrique Tarrio in a moment.
But on today, just of itself, your colleague, Jamie Raskin of Maryland, called it a very tough pill to swallow. It's obviously your constitutional duty to certify the election. But how did you feel, watching today play out?
REP. PETE AGUILAR (D-CA): It's very personal. And there's a lot of emotions, for many of us, who were on the House floor that day.
I not only served on the January 6 committee with Jamie Raskin, but I stood right behind him on the House floor when all of this happened, which, by the way, was a couple days after he'd buried his son. So, I think a lot of us just have reflections and thoughts about that day, and how it transpired, and how unfortunate it is.
But the American public saw that today, how normal it should be. It was only unprecedented, because the former President asked his supporters and followers, to come to Washington, D.C., and to disrupt our proceedings.
COLLINS: Well, and with Enrique Tarrio being one of the -- he is the longest-sentenced January 6 -- January 6 defendant or convicted person. If he gets a pardon, what is the impact of that, in your view?
AGUILAR: I think it's incredibly chilling. I think what it would say is that the incoming President, and his Republican supporters, don't support the rule of law. That's what it says.
You can't walk around and say, you support law enforcement, and then give a pardon to somebody who does this, who leads an active conspiracy to overthrow the government. That's exactly what was at stake.
We interviewed Enrique Tarrio, as part of our January 6th work. It's very clear what his role was. We developed a lot of the evidence. And there should be consequences to that. He's serving those consequences now. And it would be unfortunate to pardon him.
COLLINS: Well, and for those of you who served on the January 6 committee, the word is that President Biden and the White House are considering doing preemptive pardons, in case Trump or his allies comes after -- comes after you, once he's out of office. Would you accept one, if you were offered one?
AGUILAR: Look, I haven't had any conversations with anybody about that.
I stand by the work that we did. We have nothing to hide, and nothing to fear. Because Donald Trump is a bully. His whole history has been about trying to bully and intimidate people.
[21:25:00]
I stand by the work, the bipartisan work that we did, on that committee, the nine of us, Democrats and Republicans, finding details, finding the truth, and putting it in a full report that everybody can read. I stand by our work, and I'll defend it.
COLLINS: Does that mean you would not accept one?
AGUILAR: I think it's all hypothetical. I haven't been approached. I haven't talked to anybody about it. That's not something that I'm considering or thinking about because I--
COLLINS: But it's not that hypothetical
AGUILAR: --because I support the work.
COLLINS: Because the White House--
AGUILAR: I support the work that we did.
COLLINS: Well the -- and the White House is considering it. We -- you know, that's been reported. The White House hasn't denied it. Bennie Thompson, who is the Chair of the Committee, said that he thinks members should be open to it. Adam Kinzinger, one of the Republicans on it is, says he wouldn't accept one, because he didn't do anything wrong.
AGUILAR: Yes.
COLLINS: And obviously no one's alleging you did anything wrong.
AGUILAR: Yes, I think--
COLLINS: But I think if that--
AGUILAR: I think that's fair. I think--
COLLINS: If that comes down to it, you've got two weeks from today, for a decision, where that could be made.
AGUILAR: Yes, look, I -- the same answer. I haven't done anything wrong. The January 6 committee, the work that we did, I don't think warrants a pardon, because we were on the right side of history, in finding out what the former President and incoming President, what his motivation was, that day.
COLLINS: OK, and that is a noted non-answer, but we will follow up with you, if it becomes not a hypothetical.
As today played out, and you talking about how normal it did look, and how it has always been routine, has not generated the coverage that it did because of what happened four years ago. And nothing can compare to what happened on January 6, 2021. I think everyone can agree with that.
But given what we saw today, no Democratic objections. There had been some in protest, before. Again, they did not compare to what Republicans did on January 6th. But why was that important to members of your party today?
AGUILAR: Well, there's just no equivalency behind 2001 objections or 2017. What Republicans stood behind, four years ago, was an objection, objecting to a free and fair election. Even after the violent attack on the Capitol, a 140 of them continued to object. That's just shocking, and it's -- and it's sad.
Today, I was proud to be a member of House leadership. Proud to be a House Democrat. We voted to uphold a free and fair election. That is our job. Without fanfare. That is our role and our responsibility. That's what the Constitution allows for.
The only reason why it was unforgettable, four years ago, is because the former President required his supporters to go to the Capitol, told them, whipped them up, told them he would meet them there. That's exactly what happened.
COLLINS: Well, and this comes as all of his Cabinet picks are about to be on Capitol Hill. Your colleagues in the Senate will be voting on them, and deciding whether or not they should be in those positions.
Pam Bondi is Trump's pick for Attorney General. And Politico looked into this, and found that she -- they could not find where she's ever said anything about the prosecution of the January 6 rioters.
Obviously, she'll be running the Justice Department. Based on what we're hearing so far, we'll wait to see if she gets confirmed, what would you like to see your colleagues in the Senate ask her, though, during that confirmation hearing about this?
AGUILAR: Ask her if she believes in the rule of law. Ask her if she believes that 600 people, who have been found guilty, for beating police officers, and using objects, using flagpoles and fire extinguishers, to beat officers, if that's acceptable, if that's worthy of a pardon, and what she thinks that line is. I think those are questions that we need answered, as a public.
COLLINS: Congressman Pete Aguilar, great to have you.
AGUILAR: Thank you.
COLLINS: Thank you for your time tonight.
AGUILAR: Thanks, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: We'll be talking a lot ahead.
Up next. Make Canada great again. President-elect Trump is trolling Justin Trudeau after he announced that he is resigning as Prime Minister, now floating making Canada a 51st state.
[21:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Oh, Canada. Just hours after the Prime Minister there, Justin Trudeau, announced he'll step down, President-elect Donald Trump responded by urging America's northern neighbor to, quote, Merge with the U.S., saying, "Many people in Canada LOVE being the 51st State. The United States can no longer suffer the massive Trade Deficits and Subsidies that Canada needs to stay afloat. Justin Trudeau knew this, and resigned."
Trump, adding, "If Canada merged with the U.S., there would be no Tariffs, taxes would go way down, and they would be TOTALLY SECURE from the threat of the Russian and Chinese Ships."
A lot to unpack there. My source tonight covered Trudeau for years, and now covers the White House for Bloomberg. Josh Wingrove, our Canadian in the White House press corps.
JOSH WINGROVE, WHITE HOUSE REPORTER, BLOOMBERG: Hey, Kaitlan. Thanks for having me.
COLLINS: Trump is obviously saying that all of this is in part because of him. There were other factors at play, obviously, as well here for Trudeau. But he did just go to Mar-a-Lago, a few weeks ago, as this tariff threat was looming. Clearly, it was not fruitful.
As someone who has covered both of them, what do you make of this upheaval today, and the impact it's going to have?
WINGROVE: This has been a long time coming for the Prime Minister, who kind of have some similarities with President Biden, in that he's stuck around, even though there have been growing calls within his own party, his own allies, for him to bow out. And there were a lot of things that put pressure on him, chiefly the resignation of his top lieutenant, a few weeks ago, that sort of led to this day.
So Trump's taking credit for it. But it wasn't Trump. I think it's arguably the case that Trump threatening these tariffs bolstered Trudeau in a bit, because it could have created a solidarity sense that people didn't want to rattle the cage too much.
[21:35:00] Overall, though, this is a huge story in Canada, the question of, will these tariffs go in or not? And, of course, they are threatening retaliation. So, will tariffs come in on American goods being shipped, being bought by Americans as well?
So right now, this is sort of an up-in-the-air thing. But Trump loves needling Trudeau, but also seems to get along with him. It's a really unusual relationship that I've never really been able to make head or tails of.
COLLINS: Well, the whole G7 -- I mean, his relationship with all the G7 leaders seems to be at odds--
WINGROVE: Yes.
COLLINS: --right now, except with Meloni, who, of course, was there. He was hosting her on Saturday night.
But I want you to listen, given what you just said about how big of a story this is in Canada, to what Trump said today about the relationship, to Hugh Hewitt.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: We're the United States - we're not Canada. We have all the lumber in the world, all I have to do is free it up a little bit. And we have more lumber than they do. We have everything - we have all of the gas and oil and everything that you need in terms of energy. We have more than they do. We have everything. We don't need anything from [Canada] - why are we subsidizing them to 200 billion dollars?
HUGH HEWITT, FORMER DEPUTY DIRECTOR OF THE UNITED STATES OFFICE OF PERSONNEL MANAGEMENT, HOST, "THE HUGH HEWITT SHOW": I think you've got their attention.
TRUMP: It's actually much more than that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: It's definitely gotten their attention.
WINGROVE: Yes.
COLLINS: But the United States and Canada are each other's biggest trading partners. And so, I think when he -- when he threatens this, people may look back in his first term and say, Well, he didn't go as nuclear then, as he was pledging to do. What is going to happen now?
WINGROVE: I mean, Canada is paying attention to this because they're the ones in the crosshairs.
But the reason, I think it's a case that the world is watching is exactly what you mentioned. Canada, and depends on the year, Mexico as well, is the number one buyer of U.S. goods, the top customer. And the question is, well, if Canada could be thrown up in the air on this, then Trump's willing to do anything. Today, of course, began with Trump tweeting or truthing feedback to that Washington Post story, that said he might pare back his tariff threats and go after every country, even allied countries, but maybe only in critical goods. And he pushed back strongly against that, saying, he's not going to roll that back. In other words, leaving open the option that he's going to tariff every country, every goods, or at least not just critical goods.
And the point here is, Well, this is going to A, trigger a trade war. The Canadians have been very clear that they'll retaliate. They did last time. They targeted things like bourbon, to put pressure on Mitch McConnell. They will -- they will retaliate here.
Tariffs are also, of course, a tax paid by the importer. So, Trump's tariffs are paid by American companies. They're absorbed a little bit by the companies that are selling them in other countries.
But then reciprocal ones, the Canadians are even reportedly looking at tariffing oil on the way out, if Trump exempts it, in other words, making it so Americans pay more at the pump, even if Trump tries not to make that the case.
This could get messy real quick. And if it can get messy with your number one customer, it can get messy with anyone.
COLLINS: Yes. And we were both covering Trump, when he wanted to buy Greenland--
WINGROVE: Yes.
COLLINS: --when this came out in The Wall Street Journal, Vivian Salama reported this story.
Now tonight, after it was reported that his son, Donald Trump Jr. is going to visit, and people were raising questions, which his team said was just about recording for his podcast.
But Trump posted, quote, "I am hearing that the people of Greenland are 'MAGA.' My son... and various representatives, will be traveling there to visit some of the most magnificent areas and sights," before declaring, Make Greenland great again.
Denmark's Foreign Minister said, This is just not an official visit.
But I do think this is something that everyone is watching as Trump is preparing to take back power in two weeks from now.
WINGROVE: Yes. Add to that the Panama Canal, where he's saber rattling, and what the rates should be, and whether the Chinese influence should be pared back.
The 51st state thing, I mean, he's trolling, I assume. Canadians don't want that. Republicans don't want it. That would be a big boost for Democrats in Electoral College. No one wants -- no one involved, would actually want that to happen. But he's trolling, and he's trying to, I think the -- the generous take, let's say, is that he's trying to exert American influence in the hemisphere.
And you mentioned today, the Chinese and Russians going through the north, and wanting to have Canada on board, so that the U.S. will react to that. That itself is pretty controversial.
But more broadly, right now, the question for all these countries is, will he follow through on that? In one way, they feel like they've seen this before, and they feel like they have a playbook. But on the other hand, everyone's looking at Canada and Mexico. Mexico much more consensus on putting tariffs on certainly China, much more consensus, and wondering who's next.
COLLINS: Josh Wingrove, great reporting.
WINGROVE: Thanks.
COLLINS: Thank you very much.
Up next. Rudy Giuliani was just held in contempt of court after failing to turn over his assets to the two former election workers he defamed. What happens to him now? We'll talk about that with our experts, next.
[21:40:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, a federal judge is holding Rudy Giuliani in contempt, for purposefully making it difficult, for the two Georgia election workers that he defamed, to collect the $150 million he owes them.
So far, Giuliani has started turning over luxury watches, his Mercedes-Benz -- and his Mercedes-Benz, to Ruby Freeman and Shaye Moss. But he's allegedly holding back information about other assets.
And while he appeared via Zoom, for that hearing today, where the judge ultimately had that finding. It was exactly four years ago, tonight, that Rudy Giuliani was here in Washington, falsely claiming election fraud and rallying up the crowd that was gathered at The Ellipse.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER ASSOCIATE ATTORNEY GENERAL OF THE UNITED STATES: Let's have trial by combat.
(CHEERING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Trump himself echoed Giuliani encouraging those to fight like hell, as his supporters will say, he also told them to protest peacefully.
This comes as CNN's Donie O'Sullivan witnessed all of this unfold, as he was marching from The Ellipse, to the Capitol, with Trump supporters that day, covering the riot all through the night.
As CNN's Elle Reeve was on the scene, also at the Capitol, speaking to rioters who broke in that day.
They are both my sources tonight.
[21:45:00]
I'm so glad to have both of you here, given that.
Donie, just for you, being here today. In that span of that four years, 1,500 people were criminally charged for what you both witnessed that day. And now, you were at the D.C. jail, where those convicted are being held. What are they feeling?
DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: Yes, we were--
COLLINS: With two weeks away from Trump taking power.
O'SULLIVAN: Yes, so outside the jail here in D.C., where some January 6 convicts and people who are awaiting trial are being held, people have been holding a vigil for almost 900 nights now. Every single night, supporters, family members of people who are locked up, who want these people to be pardoned.
And they are pushing Trump very, very, very hard for these pardons. And they -- we have, I think, some shots from outside the jail tonight. They say they're not going to accept anything other than total pardons for everybody, from the Proud Boys, all the way down.
COLLINS: I mean, and they actually call in from inside the jail--
O'SULLIVAN: It's a bit surreal.
COLLINS: --to a speaker outside.
O'SULLIVAN: Yes, yes, so, it's quite surreal. Every single night, you have people gathered there. They use their one-call-a-day or whatever, to call in. They have the phone on the speaker. And even tonight, they were -- they were doing that.
COLLINS: Well, I mean, it is a remarkable turn of fate for these people, who a lot of them accepted guilty pleas, and now are in this moment, where you saw ones who are being sentenced recently, kind of telling off the judge, saying, Well it doesn't matter, Trump's going to pardon me. And they might be right, actually.
ELLE REEVE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Oh yes, they -- I spoke to several Jan- 6ers, last night. They have a house that they stay in. They come and go here in D.C.
And they marveled that four years ago, they were pariahs. No politician, no media would give them the time of day. But slowly, over time, Matt Gaetz, Marjorie Taylor Greene, others, gave them a little bit more credibility. And now, they feel like they're truly stepping into power. I mean, I went to the home, where they had a poster of this logo of Ashli Babbitt, when she been killed, with a red drop of blood on her neck. It's a -- it's an image I saw passed around on the Proud Boys Telegram, the night of Jan 6. And now, it's like mainstream.
COLLINS: Can you explain this house to me more? I mean, what -- do they use it like for a gathering purpose? What is this?
REEVE: It's kind of like a home base for people who are coming and going from court hearings, families come there, and then people who've just gotten out of jail, and there's not much, like they have to put their lives back together.
I mean, one of the interesting things about it is that it has turned many of these very conservative people into people who really want prison reform. And they also feel that they'll be able to pressure the Trump administration to enact that.
O'SULLIVAN: And there's a ton of organizations set up, over the past few years, just to support the J6ers and their families.
I mean, I was down at the jail, a few weeks ago, and somebody had called in from one of these organizations. Many of which are, by the way, are raising hundreds of thousands of dollars. And the guy claimed that they would have private planes, ready, on inauguration day, to bring people home. So, that is how soon they are expecting and wanting these pardons.
COLLINS: You've done -- you've worked with these people. I mean, are these -- they're all -- Republican congressman, this morning, described them all as just grandmothers, who are wandering in. I mean, I'm sure there were some grandmothers probably in that crowd, and we watched.
But, I mean, how many of the ones who were in prison, in the jail that you go to?
O'SULLIVAN: Yes, look, I mean, you saw today, the Enrique from the Proud Boys asking for a pardon. It does go all the way down. But look, most of the folks who are in prison, right now, did commit some act of violence, or at least damage property, or push their way into the building.
REEVE: Right. But one of the interesting things is, among the Jan- 6ers, they don't make that divide. Like, a guy I talked to, the guy with the yarn beard who smoked weed in the Capitol, he didn't do any violence, right? But he would not condemn any of the Proud Boys, or any of those people. And I pressed him on it over and over again. They do not want to have any division at all.
COLLINS: So, they don't even say, Well, hey, I did this, and I trespassed and entered illegally. But they're not saying, But I wasn't assaulting a cop like this guy was.
REEVE: No.
COLLINS: They're standing in solidarity with those people.
REEVE: No, when they repeat the names of all the people still incarcerated, afterwards, many people will say, Hero. Whether that's just the average Joe J6er or Enrique Tarrio or Joe Biggs.
COLLINS: Yes, it's just remarkable.
And also, what I was thinking, Donie, this weekend, on Saturday, on the eve of this anniversary, Trump was hosting, or attended this screening of John Eastman's documentary.
He's obviously the attorney, kind of the architect behind the plan to get Trump to try to block the certification. He's lost his law license. He's been criminally charged. But he's this figure. He was there. Rudy Giuliani was there. Both present, these -- talking about the senior people who were there that day, and encouraging these people.
[21:50:00]
O'SULLIVAN: Yes, I mean, look, there's even something called the January 6 Choir, which is prisoners who basically called in and sang into a phone, and that's been kind of remixed with the Trump speech, it's been played at Trump rallies.
It's just a total transformation, right, in the last four years, in terms of -- and very intentional and purposeful, too, when it comes from Tucker Carlson, and everybody else, changing how people, or at least many people, view what really happened that day here.
COLLINS: Yes.
Donie O'Sullivan. Elle Reeve. Great to have both your reporting, from that day, to four years later.
We have breaking news this hour. Special Counsel Jack Smith and his final report that he's expected to issue on his investigations into Donald Trump. Trump's attorneys now responding. We have more, right after this quick break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:55:00]
COLLINS: Breaking news, as we have just learned from a filing that Donald Trump's attorneys, and attorneys for his allies, have now reviewed Special Counsel Jack Smith's report that he is preparing to publish as soon as in the coming days.
My legal source tonight is the former federal prosecutor, Elliot Williams.
Elliot, we had you booked on something totally different. But this came down. And we're reading through this. And I'll talk about why this filing happened. But big news here is that Trump's attorneys, and attorneys for his allies, have gone in, and it says from January 3rd to January 6th, so over this weekend, to review a draft of the report that we knew Jack Smith was planning to publish before Biden leaves office.
ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Right.
COLLINS: But now this filing is coming from John Irving, other attorneys, Stan Woodward, who just got a job in the Trump administration, I should note. They represent the other two co- defendants in the classified documents case.
They seem to have an issue with the report overall, but specifically with Jack Smith issuing part of a report on the classified documents case, since, one, it was thrown out, and since, two, it still is going up against these two co-defendants.
WILLIAMS: Right. But the evidence -- well, let's back up. The whole point of a report is that per law, in U.S. law, when there's a special counsel, the Special Counsel, by law, submits a report to the Attorney General, and the Attorney General can choose to make that public.
Now, all of these matters that Jack Smith is investigating would necessarily have made their way into a final report. Those are investigations of the former President, both in Washington, D.C., and in Florida.
These defendants in Florida just don't like that their names, I think, are appearing in this report. And that's a little bit perplexing, because we knew that evidence was going to appear in Jack Smith's report.
COLLINS: Yes, but what I was looking at here is--
WILLIAMS: Yes.
COLLINS: --one thing they're pushing back on, is at least part of this report. I mean, what this would say, and what, I guess we did not really fully have an idea before, was that this report was going to focus on, we knew the election interference case.
But clearly, Jack Smith was also initially planning to publish part of it on the classified documents case, despite how it was thrown out by Judge Cannon in Florida.
WILLIAMS: No, it all depends on what it says. Now, there might be some overlap in the evidence between the two. It's the same major defendant that appeared in both cases. Who knows what they saw in this report that's making them -- that's making them file -- put this filing out here now?
But, again, I still think, based on the nature of the investigations, that it would not have been a surprise, and at least some of that information might have made it into the report.
COLLINS: They say it threatens the integrity of future potential proceedings. That would be against Carlos De Oliveira and Walt Nauta, presumably his two -- his two co-defendants in this case.
Is that argument potentially going to be successful if you're -- if you're the Justice Department?
WILLIAMS: Oh, well, a new Justice Department is about to come in, and I think is likely to dismiss cases against them anyway, or at least -- at least has a -- at least has an interest in doing so. So, I don't think it changes much, given the change in the Justice Department that's about to happen.
COLLINS: What about this notion? So, they go into review this report in recent days.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
COLLINS: I mean, it's pretty interesting to imagine these attorneys who have represented Trump or allies of his. Because I should note, John Lauro is signed on at this at the beginning, asking--
WILLIAMS: Yes.
COLLINS: --Merrick Garland not to release this report at all.
I mean, they're going into the DOJ. What does that look like? Is there -- you know, are they just going in, and they're handed a stack of documents by Jack Smith, and he's watching. Is there--
WILLIAMS: It may not have been--
COLLINS: --reading it?
WILLIAMS: Well, it may not -- I don't know if it would be Jack Smith himself. Certainly his staff might have been there.
But no, they will not be emailed a document like this. They will give -- be given an opportunity to review a document, probably in a hard- copy format, to make sure that nothing's wrong, nothing's inaccurate, nothing misstates the law. Or if they have a huge problem with it that they want to just appeal to the Attorney General, they'll have an opportunity to do that.
But no, it happens all the time, where you'll bring someone into the Justice Department, to review a document, live.
COLLINS: But is it -- so it's ultimately, if they -- if there's a part of it that they don't like, that's going to come out, and they go to appeal this, where -- I mean, this is going to--
WILLIAMS: Appeal's not the right word. Did -- question it or challenge it, say--
COLLINS: Right. This is--
WILLIAMS: --You don't like it. Yes.
COLLINS: This is being filed in South Florida. But does that decision ultimately come from a judge here, or from Merrick Garland?
WILLIAMS: No, it's ultimately from the -- from the Justice Department. It's, you are -- the Justice Department's -- this is a -- This is our draft document, as the United States Department of Justice. This is what we think it should say. We are giving you, Defendant, an opportunity to take a look at it, give us input into it. But at the end of the day, it's our call.
COLLINS: If this doesn't come out? If they're successful in blocking or having parts of this redacted or taken out? And then it's in the hands of the Attorney General, Pam Bondi, if she's confirmed? She could theoretically say, OK, well, this is never going to come out. Right?
[22:00:00]
WILLIAMS: Yes, she -- yes, because, the Special Counsel has to write the report, give it to the Attorney General. It's the Attorney General's choice as to whether to release it. If Merrick Garland does not release it, and Pam Bondi comes in, she could choose not to, to not to make it public.
COLLINS: But we do expect to still get a final report?
WILLIAMS: I think we would expect to get a final report. Just based on everything that we've read publicly that, that number one, they're putting it together, and number two, they're going to give it to the Attorney General, I think so.
COLLINS: Elliot Williams, breaking news, as always, with you. Keeping it interesting, here tonight. We'll continue to dig into this.
Thank you so much for joining us.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" is up next.
