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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Thousands Evacuating Los Angeles County As Wildfires Spread; Trump Won't Rule Out Using Military To Take Panama Canal, Greenland; Trump Promises "Major Pardons" For Jan. 6 Rioters. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired January 07, 2025 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
NATASHA CHEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: --and so there is just so much for them to tackle, right now. And of course, residents wondering what they have, to come home to.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: Yes, I mean, we just saw in that, one of those last shots, people waving. Those were, I think it looked like homeowners, washing, trying to keep their lawns, trying to keep things wet, with hoses, as much as they can.
But again, I mean, imagine just watching this on television, seeing your house go up in flames. Nothing you can do.
Natasha Chen, thank you for your reporting. Stay safe.
The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): This is CNN Breaking News.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Good evening. I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
Breaking, right now. Wildfires are raging in Los Angeles tonight. At least 30,000 people have been ordered to evacuate so far, as a life- threatening windstorm is fanning the flames that you are seeing right here, as officials are warning right now that the worst is yet to come.
The largest fire right now, engulfing the Pacific Palisades neighborhood, swallowing up homes in the coastal community.
CNN's Nick Watt has been live on the ground in the last hour.
Nick, we've been watching this. I mean, obviously we can see what's behind you, and just how devastating the conditions are there, right now. How quickly is all of this progressing?
NICK WATT, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Very quickly. Kaitlan, I was on the beach, this morning, 08:00 a.m., having a swim. It was a beautiful California morning. By dusk, this, 1,200 acres have been chewed up by this fire.
We knew this was coming. It's the Santa Ana winds, these warm winds that blow down, and 1030 ignition. Since then, 1,200 acres have gone up. And we don't know how many homes have been lost. I mean, this just one of them. Cars in that garage, a beautiful house on a beautiful little suburban street, gone. We have seen so many of these houses. The heat coming off this thing is intense right now.
And look, if you can see these embers in the air?
Chris (ph), can you show?
So, that's the problem. Look at those embers on the wind. That shows you how fast the wind is gusting. But every one of those embers could be another fire. I saw something just clear -- I don't if you can see, just popped up behind that hedge, just about five minutes ago. That's an ember, a spot fire. More up here, it is just never-ending.
And Chris (ph), down here, you see all this water on the street, Kaitlan. That's from the firefighters trying desperately to contain whatever they can. I mean, it is, right now, I would say, something, I don't want to say it's a losing battle. But boy, is it a battle.
And they're going to be out here, all night. Because, as you said, these winds are only going to get worse. They're going to pick up. They might peak sometime just before dawn. So these firefighters are going to be out here, trying to contain this all night.
And Kaitlan, I cannot imagine a worse environment to try to fight a fire. Tightly-packed homes, small, narrow roadways, steep inclines, wind. So, it's hard to get to it from the air. There are just men and women on the ground, trying to fight this fire. And it is a tough job. Listen, they knew this was coming, as I said, because of the winds. So they pre-positioned firefighters. But still.
And can you imagine 30,000 people under evacuation orders, trying to get out on these little roads that are little more than a lane wide? So what we saw this morning was we saw many people in their cars, just stationary. We saw people abandoning their cars, walking with the luggage that they could drag behind them.
And those cars. Well, the fire department needed to get in. So the fire department had to bulldoze dozens of cars out of the way, to get in, to try and save some of these homes.
First priority is saving life. Second priority is trying to save property. And it is a tough, tough fight. And Kaitlan, it's only going to get worse.
COLLINS: I mean, Nick, you say, you knew this was coming, in terms of the winds, the Santa Ana winds. You knew how strong they were going to be. And they were able to pre-position. But clearly, I mean, people abandoning their cars in the middle of the road means that they weren't prepared, in the sense that there was a scramble to actually get out of there. What has that looked like for people?
WATT: Well, sure. Because, listen, last night, we all knew this was coming. But of course, it's human nature, It's never going to come to my house. You like to think the best. And people also don't want to leave their homes, because when they come back, there might be nothing left. So, I can understand the reticence of people to leave.
We are increasingly seeing these fires, here in California. And maybe that -- I'm not going to say that builds complacency. But when you have so many fires, so many warnings, you might think twice before agreeing to actually evacuate. So, many people didn't. I don't blame them.
But this morning, it caused some problems. For certain, it caused some problems, getting people out, but also getting the firefighters in. Because, you can pre-position all you want, down by the beach. But getting up into these little roads, that is tough.
[21:05:00]
And also, we just heard from the L.A. County Fire Department, said, they had set up a command center, on the other side, Pacific Coast Highways. Big, big road that runs right along the coastline, through Malibu-Palisades.
The fire -- so the fire department set up their command and control on the other side of the Pacific Coast Highway. The fire has now jumped the Pacific Coast Highway. It has set some lifeguard stations -- lifeguard towers, on fire, on the beach. And the command center for this fire is actually going to have to move, because of the fire.
Kaitlan.
COLLINS: Well, and Nick, you talk about complacency, to a degree, in terms of, there's just so many fires and fire warnings. I mean, I know. I was just in L.A., last week. There hasn't been a lot of serious rain there, in months, people were talking about.
When, in terms of the fires that you've covered, have you seen something on this scale? Does it -- how does it rate, in terms of what you've seen before?
WATT: Well, I mean, the Woolsey Fire, the fire out in Malibu, back in 2018, that was huge. I mean, in terms of fires actually this close to Los Angeles-proper, this is the biggest I have ever seen for absolute certain.
And I mean, I live a good, I want to say, probably three or four miles that way in Santa Monica. And the current evacuation zone is a few blocks from my house. If this fire were to get to Santa Monica, this would be one of the most devastating nights we could imagine. I can't contemplate that. And so maybe that tells us a little bit about why people didn't evacuate early. I can't contemplate my house going on fire. So, I'm certainly cutting people slack for that.
COLLINS: Yes.
WATT: But when they come back, some people are going to come back to nothing. But at least they'll be alive.
COLLINS: Yes. I mean, Nick, a lot of people watching are going to be worried about your safety right now.
Are you and the team OK? How are you doing?
WATT: Yes, yes, yes, we're fine. I mean, listen, I'm standing on a road, which is a good idea. I'm feeling slightly -- you know, the heat from this is a little concerning.
I think after I finish speaking to you, we're probably going to get out of here. And because now that it's dark, there are fire trucks blocking the road. Once I've finished talking to you, I'm definitely going to chill out and move back just a little bit, just to keep safe and regroup.
Because, yes, it's -- it's a pretty intense environment. And the thing is, things can move so quickly. That's the problem. We were talking about those embers. An ember can drop, set a spot fire. Things can happen very, very fast in an environment like this. So, once I say goodbye, we're going to leave.
COLLINS: Yes, Nick, we want you, and Chris (ph), and the whole team to stay safe. So please, do move and get to safety, as you continue covering for this for us.
Nick Watt, thank you for that report.
WATT: Yes.
COLLINS: As we are watching this fire break out and spread so quickly in the Palisades, we're hearing warnings from officials, saying that this is not the worst. The worst is yet to come, in the coming hours. It's only after 06:00 p.m. there, on the West Coast.
I want to bring in Joe Goldman, who is joining me now. He was just able to evacuate his family's home in the Pacific Palisades.
And Joe, one, I want to say I'm glad that you and your family are saved. We have video that you took, because you were initially trapped by the fire, and this is what you captured, as you and your family were trying to escape.
Can you just kind of walk us through how quickly this happened, and what it went through -- what you went through to actually get out of there?
JOE GOLDMAN, EVACUATED FROM PALISADES FIRE: Yes. So we -- my wife saw the fire, driving home from work this morning. She got home early. And I hadn't heard anything on the news or got a notification or anything. But she said, Hey, there's a fire. And sometime around 30 minutes later, we got an alert saying, Hey, there's a fire, you might want to consider evacuating.
So, we tried to leave before the mandatory evacuation order went out, and we got down to the bottom of the hill, and just there was -- there was so much traffic, people were dropping -- driving on the other side of the road, abandoning cars.
So, we decided to go back up Palisades Drive, and try to use the fire road, which is there just for specific situations like this. And the gate was open, which it usually isn't, which means take the fire road. And the whole road was just engulfed in flames. So, we couldn't get out there.
And for a while, we were just better off at home, because there was -- there's one road in, one road out, and we couldn't get -- we couldn't get out. So--
COLLINS: So you tried--
J. GOLDMAN: --we stayed put for a while, and.
COLLINS: You tried to get out by coming down the road, but it was blocked by other people's cars. I mean, as Nick was saying there, people are abandoning their vehicles, scared for their lives with the fire. But then when you tried to go on in the fire road, that was blocked by actual fire, and so you were kind of forced to go back home.
[21:10:00]
J. GOLDMAN: Yes, had to go back home. And then we were just constantly watching the news, asking neighbors if they had opened up yet. And eventually, they started doing police escorts down. So, like, a certain amount of people at a time.
And then once we got through Sunset Boulevard, it was just mayhem. There were cars exploding. There were -- just everything was on fire, like I've seen fires up in the highlands before, but nothing like this, where it was just uncontrolled.
COLLINS: How much of a -- did you have any kind of a warning? You were saying, your wife noticed it as she was driving home. Was there any indication, as of last night, that this could be a situation that your neighborhood was in today?
J. GOLDMAN: No, it didn't -- well we knew -- we knew yesterday that there was going to be a really bad wind situation. And it hasn't rained here since, you know, significantly since March or April. So, it's been, like, nine months without rain. So everything's just completely dried out. So, we were on high alert.
But no, we -- my wife was the first time I heard about the fire. And then, things were really bad by the time we got the mandatory evacuation notice.
COLLINS: How many people do you think were still -- of your neighbors, were still there, when you got that mandatory evacuation notice? J. GOLDMAN: I would say most. There were a lot of people just were like--
COLLINS: Wow.
J. GOLDMAN: --at top of Palisades Drive just sitting in their cars, waiting for the go-ahead to go down the hill. But yes, by the time -- I mean, everyone left.
But when we got the mandatory evacuation letters, and there was just nowhere to go. I mean, I thought that maybe it would have been smarter to segment off the area, and tell us, like, Hey, you're better off staying right now. Because we all went down the hill and there was nowhere for us to go other than the fire.
COLLINS: I mean, that must be a pretty terrifying feeling, to be getting a mandatory evacuation notice, and then not being able to evacuate.
J. GOLDMAN: Yes, when there was no information about whether the fire road was accessible, or how long, whether they were bringing anyone down. So, yes, there was -- there was not much communication between the fire department and the residents.
But we just kept trying, and eventually they made sure everyone got through, because they started to grow worried that the whole -- the whole neighborhood, is in danger. So, I'm hoping now most people are gone.
COLLINS: So, your family is safe now. Have you heard from most of those neighbors that were still there when the evacuator -- excuse me, a mandatory evacuation notice came down. Are they in safety? Or have you not been able to get in touch with some of them?
J. GOLDMAN: Yes, I got in touch with as many people as I could. Like, a friend's dad who had lost power, and he doesn't have a cell phone, so someone had to go make sure that he was evacuating.
But yes, all the neighbors were like -- we're all really on edge about fires, up in the Palisades, because it's so mountainous and dried out. But yes, I mean, it's, everyone's just -- was just on edge, waiting to get out.
COLLINS: Yes. It's such a beautiful area. I was just there last week. I mean, just watching this is devastating, and hearing what we're hearing from officials.
Joe, I'm so glad that you and your family are safe. And thank you, for taking a few minutes, to come on, and share what you went through today. I really appreciate it. Please keep us updated as well.
J. GOLDMAN: Of course. Thanks so much.
COLLINS: Thank you, Joe.
We'll continue to check in with him, and our reporters on the ground, as we are monitoring the wildfires that are breaking out in the Pacific Palisades. And only more to come in the next few hours.
Here in Washington, a lot also happening on the ground as well, today. President-elect Donald Trump refusing to rule out military force, when he was asked about seizing the Panama Canal and even Greenland. Also economic force as well, when asked about his, what seemed like a joke, making Canada the 51st state.
Plus, did Meta just caved to MAGA? That is what some critics are saying. We'll tell you what the new social media giant is announcing tonight.
[21:15:00]
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COLLINS: Tonight, the same President-elect who made clear he wants no new wars on his watch, and is also vowing to end the ones that are underway right now, made quite a head-snapping turn.
Trump now refusing to rule out using military force to take Greenland, a territory of Denmark, or the Panama Canal, which the U.S. returned to control of Panama decades ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you assure the world that as you try to get control of these areas, you are not going to use military or economic coercion?
DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND CURRENT PRESIDENTIAL- ELECT: No.
I can't assure you. You're talking about Panama and Greenland. No, I can't assure you on either of those two. But I can say this. We need them for economic security.
I'm not going to commit to that now. It might -- it might be that you'll have to do something. Look, the Panama Canal is vital to our country.
We need Greenland for national security purposes. I've been told that for a long time.
People really don't even know if Denmark has any legal right to it. But if they do, they should give it up, because we need it for national security.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Denmark would like to have a word about that. We've heard from officials there, and in Panama, who have rejected any talk of giving up their territories, today. This has left much of the world, to question whether or not Trump is serious, and whether he would actually move forward with using military force.
All of this is coinciding, I should note, with a visit that Donald Trump Jr. made to Greenland today, for what was described, by his team, as a personal visit.
Meanwhile, Canada was also in Donald Trump's crosshairs.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you also considering military force to annex and acquire Canada?
TRUMP: No, economic force. Because Canada and the United States, that would really be something. You get rid of that artificially-drawn line, and you take a look at what that looks like, and it would also be much better for national security.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: So, military force is off the table for Canada, but economic force is certainly not.
[21:20:00]
I should note that Canada's outgoing Prime Minister, Justin Trudeau, who resigned as the party leader yesterday, responded saying, quote, "There isn't a snowball's chance in hell that Canada would become part of the" U.S.
But that was not all that we heard from Mar-a-Lago, today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: We're going to be changing the name of the Gulf of Mexico to the Gulf of America, which has a beautiful ring. That covers a lot of territory. The Gulf of America, what a beautiful name.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My next source tonight was in the Trump administration, the last time he thought about getting his hands on Greenland. Former National Security Adviser, John Bolton, is joining me now.
Ambassador, I'll ask you about the Gulf of America, in a moment.
But you were there in 2019 when Trump -- this is not a new idea for him. He had talked about this, his first term in office. You had actually argued, in subsequent interviews, that it would be good for U.S. national security, you thought. That's the same argument Trump is making. Where do you stand on this after hearing from him today?
JOHN BOLTON, FORMER TRUMP NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE U.N.: Look, the Greenland issue is very serious.
The question is, what kind of answer is there to make sure that we don't lose our strong NATO position in the Arctic Circle that endangers -- puts us in danger from Russia, and that we don't allow China to take advantage of its desire to be, hard for some people to hear this, but to be an Arctic power. The problem with what Trump is doing today is not the end result of what might be a quiet negotiation. The problem is, by doing it all in public, because he likes to hear himself talk, he is making it harder to achieve his own objectives, certainly with respect to Greenland, but also with respect to Panama.
The Canada stuff is just trolling Justin Trudeau.
But on Greenland, this is very, very serious. Suppose Greenland became independent of Denmark, and agreed to hold Russian or Chinese air and naval stations there? That would be, to say the least, troubling for the United States.
So this question of the Greenland U.S. security relationship goes back a long, long way. Donald Trump didn't discover Greenland today, or back in 2019. It goes back a long way. And the way to resolve it, with the Government of Denmark and the local government of Greenland, is quiet conversations.
When Trump says all this stuff publicly, particularly about not ruling out the use of force, he is pushing the democratically-elected Government of Greenland, and the democratically-elected Government of Denmark, into a corner, makes them harder -- harder for them to consider--
COLLINS: Yes.
BOLTON: --alternative solutions.
COLLINS: But--
BOLTON: So, it's a real lack of situational awareness.
COLLINS: There's one -- one certain argument to be made about quiet conversations. But I mean, he is blatantly refusing to rule out using military force to achieve his goals here.
BOLTON: Yes. Yes, well, of course, that's -- but that's my point. If you're the Prime Minister of Denmark, your NATO ally is refusing to say they're not going to attack your territory, which is what Greenland is.
When it's the -- woman who's the Prime Minister today, was Prime Minister back in 2019 too. And she said then, the idea of buying Greenland, which Trump blew up publicly, and which compromised any effort we had in 2019, to have a quiet conversation with Denmark, she called the idea, absurd. To which Trump responded, calling her nasty. Now, this is one NATO ally talking to another NATO ally. It's not the way to proceed.
It does have a further ramification, based on what Trump said today about declining to rule out the use of force. That's exactly the same position Xi Jinping has on Taiwan.
So, I could easily imagine Xi Jinping, saying, Look, I perfectly well- understand Greenland's close to the United States. Taiwan is close to us. Trump won't rule out the use of force on Greenland. Exactly our position. We won't rule it out on Taiwan.
Or Vladimir Putin could say, Look, I certainly understand that. Ukraine is critical to our national security. We are using force. And frankly, if the United States invaded Greenland -- which, by the way, has U.S. troops stationed there today -- I, Vladimir Putin wouldn't oppose that.
It shows Trump, again, not understanding the broader context that his remarks are made in, and the harmful consequences that this is having all across NATO, right now.
COLLINS: You're saying that President Xi and President Putin could use this, as a way to justify with what they argue about Ukraine and Taiwan.
But you're also, what you're saying there, maybe indirectly, is that Trump sounds like President Xi and President Putin, when he's making an argument that Greenland should belong to the U.S. because of national security reasons, and that he's willing to take it--
BOLTON: Yes, look, there are--
COLLINS: --by military force to do so.
BOLTON: Well, that's a -- that's a pretty significant point, that you're not willing to rule it out. We're talking about a treaty ally of the United States. Greenland today is a member of NATO. I mean, just so people get that point.
[21:25:00]
We have a treaty called the Defense of Greenland treaty with Denmark right now. That actually is a vehicle that could be used. It's been amended before. It's a post-World War II treaty that gave us the Thule Air Force Base, which we have in Greenland today. And could be modified.
There are a lot of ways to go about it. I would like to see something pretty expansive. I think Greenland is part of the North American landmass, and I think it's not irrational to say that a closer political relationship with the United States makes sense.
We occupied Greenland before -- before Pearl Harbor, during World War II. When the local government of Greenland at the time, after Denmark had fallen to the Nazis, fearful of being taken over by Canada or Norway, invited the United States in. After Donald Trump's remarks, I think it's very unlikely the current local government of Greenland would do that.
We've got a lot at stake here. This is a serious issue. We've got to proceed responsibly. That press conference today, and other things Trump has said, is not proceeding responsibly. And what just baffles me is that he doesn't understand he's impeding himself from achieving the objectives he says he wants.
COLLINS: We will see if that's the case. Ambassador John Bolton, thank you for your time.
My political sources tonight on this.
Democratic strategist, Paul Begala.
And Trump's former White House political director and, later, campaign director, Bill Stepien.
I mean, I see what John Bolton is arguing there. He's made this argument that it's a national security thing.
But to Trump, it seems to be more about acquisition by force than a national security concern that he's airing there. Because he's saying that -- he was also arguing today, not just talking about military force, that they could tariff the hell out of Denmark, basically, if they refuse to sell the -- sell Greenland to the United States.
BILL STEPIEN, FORMER TRUMP CAMPAIGN MANAGER, FORMER WHITE HOUSE POLITICAL DIRECTOR UNDER PRES. TRUMP: Foreign policy by social media or by press conference is not traditional. It's not typical. And I know it rubs some of the traditional folks the wrong way. We just heard the Ambassador. He referenced Canada.
I think Canada is an example of it actually working. Think about two months ago, and President Trump won, right? He had drugs, immigrants flowing over the border, from his vantage point. Too many U.S. cars being made in Canada. And an antagonist as prime minister.
Two months forward, Deputy Prime Minister resigned. Trudeau is out. You're going to have a Conservative government replace Trudeau's Liberal government.
If the goal of foreign policy is to get something from a foreign country that you don't have? Seems to be working in Canada, even though it's a little non-traditional.
COLLINS: What about with the Panama Canal, though? Because that was -- this is something that's newer for Trump, that I've heard from sources--
PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Yes.
COLLINS: --has become a fixation of his, in more recent weeks. He is quite serious about it. I think when sometimes, people who listen to Trump, they were saying, Oh, he's talking about all these things. It's a distraction.
He is genuinely talking about this behind-the-scenes, not just in front of the cameras.
BEGALA: And that's in his wheelhouse, which is the 70s, right? This is just a rerun, maybe some new, new issues Greenland, which, by the way, Harry Truman wanted to buy. So, I don't think that that's.
But it's a trap for Democrats, OK? This is the same series that aired a few years ago. And that's just a reboot, OK? But the question is, will the Democrats play the same character? By which I mean, we're supposed to be the donkey. We're not. Democrats are a largemouth bass. We hit any shiny object, and always surprised there's a hook in it. In other words, don't chase Trump around Panama, Greenland, Canada.
The most important thing Trump said at the press conference today -- President-elect Trump, I'm being respectful. The most important thing our President-elect said at the press conference was an hour into it, and he said, quote, You're going to see pretty drastic price reductions for groceries.
Now, that's a piece of tape that Democrats need to save and run. He has laid down a marker. He has promised us, pretty drastic price reductions at the grocery store. I think the Democrats should answer all this, Greenland, whatever, saying, What's it going to do to the cost of groceries, gas and rent? That's why you're there, buddy. Groceries, gas and rent. Not Greenland, Canada and Panama.
COLLINS: So, you're saying maybe it's a distraction.
I mean, but he is coming into an administration. You were there in round one, and now in round two. With a lot of people who are less -- you know, Ambassador John Bolton, I think, was aligned with Trump on a lot of policy issues at the beginning, but then, obviously, certainly not anymore. With a lot of aides, though, who are willing to back Trump up, when he says things like what he said today.
Will things look different? Should Democrats be taking Trump seriously on Greenland, on the Panama Canal, on all of these other issues?
STEPIEN: Again, I'll go back to Canada. I mean, you're seeing massive governmental change, political change, massive change, right across the border. That was not happening two months ago. You're seeing that--
COLLINS: But Trudeau was also unpopular.
STEPIEN: Yes.
COLLINS: There's a few other factors. I'm not saying it's totally that. But there were a few other factors.
BEGALA: That's a rooster taking credit for the dawn, ma'am.
COLLINS: But, again, I--
BEGALA: That was happening. I mean I was in Canada not long ago.
COLLINS: But let me follow up with what I meant.
BEGALA: This was happening.
COLLINS: Because the other comment he made about changing Gulf of Mexico to Gulf of America. I mean, Marjorie Taylor Greene comes out right after that and says, I'm going to propose legislation to get behind this. [21:30:00]
STEPIEN: This is negotiation. Like, I'm not a good negotiator, but I do know do not take things off the table. Put it -- keep it all on the table.
We're not going to go to war with Panama. We're not, right? But why telegraph that to Panama, right? Keep it on the table. Keep all threats, options and authority on the table, until you can take it off. That's called negotiation. That's what he's doing.
He's the most pro-peace president of my lifetime. He's also the best negotiator. I don't see him going to war with Panama. But it's part of the negotiation process.
BEGALA: This is the Art of the Squeal. He's not a negotiator at all. Please.
You remember, he went to South Korea -- he didn't go. But he said, the South Koreans should pay $5 billion for our troops that are there. Well, it'll -- they only cost $4 billion. And you know what they paid? Almost nothing more. It was Joe Biden, who got a significant increase in South Korea's contribution.
It was Joe Biden, by the way, who got 23. When Trump was president, only about eight of our NATO allies were paying the 2 percent of their GDP toward defense. Biden got it to 23. So actually, Biden's method of quiet diplomacy, kind of what Ambassador Bolton was talking about, much more effective than Trump squealing on TV.
COLLINS: I do think Trump does get some credit. I mean, every president has wanted NATO allies. But I mean, Trump obviously would get credit for getting nations to bolster their defense spending, of course.
Paul Begala. Bill Stepien. We'll leave it there. Thank you both for that. We'll see if it becomes the Gulf of America.
Up next. The President-elect Trump, you could tell there in that press conference today, he was quite angry. Well, he made clear a few minutes in why that was. He went after the person you're looking at here, the Special Counsel, Jack Smith. As one of his most favored judges, has temporarily blocked the release of Smith's report on his investigations.
[21:35:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: 13 days away from his inauguration, Donald Trump is fighting two last-minute legal dramas, tonight, that he and his attorneys are desperately trying to quash, or run out the clock on, until that day of January 20th.
As Trump was speaking at Mar-a-Lago, in that news conference we just showed you today, he learned that Judge Aileen Cannon granted his team's request to block Jack Smith, the Special Counsel, from releasing his report on his investigations into the President-elect. A report that was expected any day now, and that Smith is required to submit to the Attorney General.
While it's not going to put Trump in any legal jeopardy here. Those cases are already gone. A public report, right before he takes office, could potentially embarrass the President-elect, or members of his incoming administration.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Deranged Jack Smith, he's a deranged individual.
They brought this moron out of the Hague.
His picture was perfect. Because you look at his picture, you say, That's a bad guy, with his robe, his purple robe.
We had a brilliant judge in Florida that saw right through it.
Why should he be allowed to write a fake report? It'll only be a fake report.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: The brilliant judge's decision that he referred to there, that's Judge Cannon he was talking about, even before he knew about this. That's now in the hands of a federal appeals court. It is unclear what they may do tonight.
My legal sources are:
Elliot Williams, former federal prosecutor.
And Jim Trusty, former attorney for Donald Trump.
Elliot, my first question when this came down was, does Judge Cannon have the authority to block this--
ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Yes--
COLLINS: --report?
WILLIAMS: Not block it. In this way, she is holding it, putting a pause on it while an appeal is pending by two of the -- two of Trump's co-defendants in Florida.
Now, again, Jim and I were talking about this beforehand. It remains to be seen how quickly that Appeals court will resolve this matter. These kinds of motions, these tend to go pretty quickly. Now we're talking about days here, not weeks and weeks and weeks. But we'll just have to see. But for now, she can pause it.
COLLINS: But even if the report is -- part of it's not even focused on anything that was ever in her wheelhouse. I mean, she had the classified documents case, as you know well, not the election interference case. That was in the hands of Judge Chutkan. So, how does that work in the terms of her authority, from your understanding?
JIM TRUSTY, FORMER COUNSEL FOR DONALD TRUMP, FORMER DOJ PROSECUTOR: Yes, I mean, the briefing is actually very light on exactly what her authority is. Like, neither side went crazy on the jurisdictional basis for this kind of ruling.
But I think that's a tribute to what Elliot is saying. I think this is going to move so quickly that by the time the navel-gazers are done thinking about whether she had specific jurisdiction, it's going to take care of itself.
Her order is extremely deferential to the Eleventh Circuit. It just basically says, Time-out. I got two potentially pending defendants in Walt Nauta and Carlos De Oliveira. And because of their equities, more than President Trump's, I want to see how this plays out with the Eleventh Circuit.
COLLINS: Well, I don't think it's navel-gazing to wonder if she has the authority. I mean, the point of them going to her is try to run out the clock. Because obviously, if this is not resolved by January 20th, then Merrick Garland no longer is making this decision about what to make public here.
WILLIAMS: Look, let's be clear. If this is not resolved by January 20th, it goes away. And let's just step back for a second, Kaitlan. Because the former President -- President-elect made the point about it being a fake report, and what gives Jack Smith the authority to do it.
The law gives him the authority to do so. The law says that the special -- any special counsel shall produce a report to the attorney general. The attorney general can make it public.
Look, if this last until January 20th? At 12:01 p.m., it goes away. I don't see how a future attorney general would make any such report public.
COLLINS: What did you make of Trump's team arguing that it interferes with his upcoming transition?
TRUSTY: I'm not sure that you're going to get a lot of traction on the argument that this is kind of pseudo-presidency now.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
TRUSTY: But I will say this. I mean, this opinion is coming. This written $32 million term paper, is how it's really playing out, in terms of the expenses of Special Counsel, is something that has -- the State of Florida law is he was a private citizen without authority to even go to a grand jury.
So, I do think it's an interesting argument for the Eleventh Circuit, like, how can we let what is effectively a private citizen, without any prosecuting authority under the appointments clause, write anything and distribute anything at this juncture?
[21:40:00]
COLLINS: Yes, maybe that's the classified documents argument. But, I mean, the Attorney General does have the authority to pick a special counsel. He stood by that, and says he thinks he has the legal authority for that.
Elliot, on this -- all of this is coming. Trump was so angry today, and he made very clear. One, it was because of Jack Smith, and the fight over this report. Two, what is still set to happen right now in New York on Friday, which is his sentencing in the hush money case.
He was just denied, by an Appeals court, earlier today. What is going to happen there?
WILLIAMS: Oh my -- what is -- what is going to happen? Lord knows. Just because how unique this party is, with a President-elect being potentially sentenced in court, I don't know, Kaitlan, and I don't think anybody knows what's going to happen.
Now, look, sentencings are relatively straightforward. At this point in a proceeding, you're days out from a sentencing. It could happen. The problem is that a federal court could still step in and pause it, and that remains to be seen.
There's still 72 hours between now and then. And anything can happen in this case.
COLLINS: We'll see what happens.
Elliot Williams. Jim Trusty. Great to have you both.
TRUSTY: Thank you.
COLLINS: We'll see. Of course, anything could happen, as Elliot said.
Up next. The President-elect's new update on his plans to pardon convicted January 6 rioters. Here's what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I'll be making major pardons.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Will you pardon anyone who attacked a police officer?
TRUMP: Well, you know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:45:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: The President-elect said today that one of the first things he is going to do, within minutes of taking office, pardon people who are convicted for storming the Capitol on January 6th. Today, he made clear that those serving time for assaulting police officers are also under consideration.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: People that were doing some bad things weren't prosecuted. And people that didn't even walk into the building are in jail right now. So we'll be looking at the whole thing. But I'll be making major pardons.
You know, there was never charges of insurrection or anything like that. But if there were, this would be the only insurrection in history, where people went in as insurrectionists with not one gun.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Of course, multiple people were on the Capitol grounds, who were convicted of having handguns on them.
But this is all coming with Trump's inauguration, now less than two weeks away, as it's still unclear exactly who of those more than 1,000 people, who have been charged, would be granted a pardon.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Will you pardon anyone who attacked a police officer?
TRUMP: Well, you know, the only one that was killed was a beautiful young lady named Ashli Babbitt. She was killed. And there was actually somebody else that was killed, also a MAGA person.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: No mention of the more than 140 police officers, who were assaulted and injured that day, or the four officers who later died by suicide, and the officer whose stroke a medical examiner attributed to that attack.
My congressional source tonight served as the lead counsel in Donald Trump's first impeachment. New York Democratic congressman, Dan Goldman, is here.
As you look at how Trump is going to be going about these pardons. We don't know. He could pardon five people. He could pardon 500 people. I mean, what would that mean to you? You're a former federal -- or a former prosecutor. How would you look at this?
REP. DAN GOLDMAN (D-NY): If I'm a prosecutor, I am absolutely irate. And if I'm a member of law enforcement, I'm appalled. Because let's break down what this is. Most of these people, the vast majority of the over a 1,000-plus, I think it might be 1,600 charged now, were charged in some connection with assaulting police officers.
What occurred at the Capitol that day was an -- however, he wants, an infiltration, a raid of the Capitol. And in order to do that, they mowed over police officers, many of whom had serious, serious injuries. Michael Fanone was tasered and had a stroke. Aquilino Gonell -- Aquilino Gonell had massive surgery on his legs. These are not trivial injuries.
And Donald Trump would be saying that it is OK, to assault law enforcement. I don't want to hear anything about the Republicans, Backing the Blue, if they're going to (ph) support Donald Trump pardoning people who are convicted of assaulting law enforcement officers.
COLLINS: Well, I mean, instead today, he turned to Ashli Babbitt, who has kind of become this cause for the January 6ers, as we've heard this.
What we've been hearing from our reporters is for those who are in the jail, here in Washington, they kind of hold a vigil every night. We are told that some of the support groups that have raised a lot of money, for these convicted criminals, are preparing to have private planes, in Washington, the day of Trump's inauguration, in case he does follow through with these pardons.
What do you think -- what message does that send to people?
D. GOLDMAN: Well, look, it's obviously a terrible message. But we also have to stop chasing every crazy thing Donald Trump says.
Obviously, he's trying to deflect from the conduct that he incited, by talking about Ashli Babbitt, and ignoring the officers. This is all about Donald Trump whitewashing the historical record of his misconduct. That's the same reason why he's trying to suppress the Special Counsel report.
Donald Trump does not believe that transparency, does not believe the rules, apply to him. And so, he will do anything, to mislead you, to distract you, to distract them, to touch the media, to get everybody to chase after Greenland, or Panama, or whatever it is.
[21:50:00]
When in reality, he is sitting there, thinking about how he is going to cut taxes on billionaires, how he is going to close our borders, how he is going to politicize the Department of Justice and the FBI. Those are the dangerous actions that he is gearing up to take. And we have to make sure that we're not getting distracted by his reference to Ashli Babbitt, or things like that.
COLLINS: Yes, we'll see how you, and other Democrats, handle that when he's back in office.
The House today passed a bill to deport undocumented immigrants charged with minor crimes. It's named after Laken Riley, the 22-year- old Georgia student who was murdered.
You voted against it. Why did you vote against it?
D. GOLDMAN: This is a fundamental due process issue. This bill allows for the deportation and removal of undocumented immigrants, who have simply been charged, alleged, to have committed deportable crimes.
And it is ironic to me that Donald Trump, who held on so tightly to that presumption of innocence, who talks so much about due process, who says innocent until proven guilty, is now going to turn around and support the exact opposite, which is to deport people simply accused of crimes, who have neither admitted it nor have been convicted of it.
That is not how our system of due process works. That's not how the rule of law works, in this country. And that's why I voted against it. I support a conviction for those crimes to warrant deportation, or an admission of the criminal conduct. But we do not assume the truth of, and the validity of, any allegation that someone throws.
COLLINS: So, you think you're -- I mean, 48 of your colleagues, and Democratic colleagues, including six New Yorkers, voted for it. You think they were wrong?
D. GOLDMAN: I think that people vote for things for a lot of different reasons. And I think, politically, this is a difficult issue, right now, because we do have a problem with crime.
It is misdirected, though, to say, and this is part of Donald Trump's absurdity and ridiculousness, by claiming that immigration was the cause of the New Orleans terrorist attack. That guy was a U.S. citizen, born here, served in the Army, has nothing to do with illegal immigration. But yet, they will try to convince everybody that it is the undocumented immigrants' fault that crime is going up.
And the political calculus is different for a lot of different people. And ultimately, the message is, Are you -- that some people feel is, Are you going to be tough on immigrants or not?
COLLINS: Congressman Dan Goldman, thank you, as always.
D. GOLDMAN: Thank you.
COLLINS: Up next. The Meta CEO, Mark Zuckerberg, we heard from him today, he's getting rid of fact checks and getting a big seal of approval from the President-elect. His reasoning.
[21:55:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, President-elect Trump is offering praise for Meta, the parent company of Facebook and Instagram, after its CEO, Mark Zuckerberg, announced that they are doing away with fact checks.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Meta. Facebook. I think they've come a long way.
STEVE CONTORNO, CNN SENIOR REPORTER: Do you think he's directly responding to the threats that you have made to him in the past--?
TRUMP: Probably. Yes, probably. (END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Zuckerberg, who I should note Trump has previously accused of censoring posts of conservatives and his own, and at one point threatened him with life in prison, says today that fact checks would be replaced with X-style Community Notes, also known as Twitter. That leaves the accuracy of posts, up to users to correct.
Meta first rolled out its announcement on Fox News, this morning, with its newly-named Global Policy Chief, Joel Kaplan. He's a well-known Republican. And that comes after they announced yesterday that Trump ally, UFC CEO, Dana White, would also be joining its Board. And this is all coming after the company pledged, last month, to donate a million dollars to Trump's inauguration.
My source tonight is Sara Fischer, a Senior Media Reporter at Axios.
And Sara, I know you just spoke to Meta's Chief Marketing Officer, this evening, about this. What did he have to say about this change in policy?
SARA FISCHER, CNN MEDIA ANALYST, SENIOR MEDIA REPORTER, AXIOS: Yes, Kaitlan, I spoke to him very shortly after this news came out. And I asked him, Is this a permanent shift? Because he argued that this is a return back to Meta's roots. To which I said, Why did you shift away from them in the first place?
Basically, they faced a lot of political pressure, especially during the pandemic, to moderate content. And so, now they might say that they're going back to their roots. I'm personally skeptical. If there's a new administration that comes in, on the left, are they going to change back to moderation? Who knows. But they seem pretty convinced that this is going to be the long-term play.
COLLINS: Did he have anything else to say about really, what this means overall? Because, I mean, we've seen Mark Zuckerberg at Mar-a- Lago, meeting with Donald Trump, clearly not far from the only tech executive who was going down there. But what else did he seem to say about what Meta's going to look like with Donald Trump in office?
FISCHER: Well, the big picture here is that he believes consumers don't demand on brands, including Meta, that they take a stand on every issue. He says that they want their companies, their brands, to really be authentic to what they believe. And what Meta believes is in free speech.
Now, does that mean that Meta is going to lean into more conservative ideals? That's not what he thinks, from a marketing perspective. He thinks it's about free speech. But I would argue, this definitely feels like a pivot to the right.
You mentioned a bunch of lists, up top, of all the various things that they're doing to sort of pander to the Trump administration. I should note, Meta CEO, Mark Zuckerberg, dined with Trump, at Mar-a-Lago, on Thanksgiving Eve. To me, Kaitlan, even though he says this is going back to Meta's roots, I think this is about ensuring that they don't face regulatory blowback and political blowback in this new administration.
[22:00:00]
COLLINS: Yes. I mean, that's really an interesting dynamic here, as we have seen them watching Elon Musk develop such a close relationship with Trump, and then also trying to do similar here.
Sara Fischer, it's a fascinating time. A great conversation that you had, and a very timely one. So, thank you for coming on, and sharing it with us. Let us know if you get more news, while you're out there.
Thank you all so much for joining us, on this very busy hour.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" is up next.
