Return to Transcripts main page
The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Key GOP Sen. Ernst Will Vote To Confirm Hegseth; Michelle Obama To Break With Tradition, Skip Trump Inauguration; CNN Investigates: LAFD Among The Most Understaffed In America. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired January 14, 2025 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: --before we go, I just want to let you know my new -- a new episode of my podcast on grief and loss, All There Is, has just dropped tonight. It's available wherever you get your podcast. You can point out your phone's camera at the QR code on the screen right now.
This week's guest is historian, Doris Kearns Goodwin, who remembers her late husband, Dick, who died nearly seven years ago of cancer.
You can also watch and listen to all episodes of the podcast. Watch videos of the interview at CNN.com/allthereisonline. And the interviews are also on YouTube. You can also leave comments and share your experiences at CNN.com/allthereisonline. I hope it makes you feel a little less lonely in your grief.
And if you'd like to help those affected by the Los Angeles area wildfires, go to CNN.com/impact.
The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now. I'll be here tomorrow. I'll see you then.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Straight from THE SOURCE tonight.
The critical vote that we have been waiting for, Senator Joni Ernst revealing her vote on Pete Hegseth's confirmation, as President-elect Trump appears to have won the battle for his pick to lead the Defense Department.
Democratic senator, Elizabeth Warren, will join me live, after she clashed with Hegseth, today, over his stance on women in combat.
Also tonight, the death toll in Los Angeles has now risen to 25 people. While firefighters are making progress, today, forecasters have an ominous new warning.
And who is in and who is out? Michelle Obama won't attend Donald Trump's inauguration, next Monday. But Mark Zuckerberg will. And he is not the only one. We have a few more names for you tonight.
I'm Kaitlan Collins in Washington. And this is THE SOURCE.
And there is breaking news, here in D.C., after a dramatic, intense day on Capitol Hill.
Republican senator, Joni Ernst of Iowa, who at one point expressed reservations about President-elect Trump's pick to run the Pentagon, and had the power, potentially, to sink Pete Hegseth's nomination, has just made a very big announcement.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JONI ERNST (R-IA): He was adequately able to answer all of my questions, he pointed out the woke issues at the Pentagon, and I think we're at a point where now we can start moving forward, people know where he stands on these issues.
SIMON CONWAY, HOST, NEWSRADIO 1040 WHO: Yes.
ERNST: So I felt it was a good hearing.
CONWAY: Does he have your vote?
ERNST: I am breaking news, Simon, I figured you would ask this. So, yes, I will be supporting President Trump's pick for Secretary of Defense.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now, from my reporting, there had been a bit of apprehension going into that hearing today by Trump's team. They have been keeping a close eye on people like Senator Ernst. She's a veteran and a sexual assault survivor. But there was a sigh of relief at Mar-a-Lago, following that hearing, especially tonight, now that they have a seal of approval from Ernst herself.
The Committee chairman, Senator Roger Wicker, told CNN earlier that he expects all Republicans, on his panel, to vote to advance Hegseth's nomination for Defense secretary.
That's a major reversal of fortune for Hegseth, whose nomination appeared to be in deep trouble, just a few weeks ago, amid allegations of sexual misconduct, financial mismanagement at non-profits that he oversaw, and also alleged excessive drinking, all of which he denied adamantly, over and over today.
And remember, it was less than six weeks ago, when Ernst herself was publicly expressing those reservations, saying that she believed Hegseth had his work cut out for him, to get confirmed into this place, tonight.
I was there in the room today, as she and her colleagues questioned Hegseth, and also had the chance to hear firsthand the reception that Pete Hegseth got when he walked into that hearing room. It was filled with Trump's top allies and his supporters.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(CHEERING)
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: You can hear the applause he got going into it.
Republicans on that committee, like Senator Tommy Tuberville that you see here, were anxious to see how contentious it might get.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. MAZIE HIRONO (D-HI): Will you resign as Secretary of Defense if you drink on the job?
PETE HEGSETH, PRESIDENTIAL-ELECT TRUMP'S PICK FOR DEFENSE SECRETARY: I've made this commitment on behalf of the men and women I'm serving.
HIRONO: Will you resign as Secretary--
HEGSETH: --of my life.
HIRONO: I'm not hearing an answer to my questions.
SEN. MARK KELLY (D-AZ): You were noticeably intoxicated and had to be carried up to your room. Is that true or false?
HEGSETH: Anonymous smears.
SEN. TIM KAINE (D-VA): You cheated on the mother of that child less than two months after that daughter was born, didn't you?
HEGSETH: Those were false charges.
KAINE: Well, no--
HEGSETH: It was fully investigated. And I was completely cleared. And I am so grateful--
KAINE: You have been -- you have been--
HEGSETH: --for the marriage I have--
KAINE: No, you've admitted--
HEGSETH: --to this amazing woman behind me.
SEN. GARY PETERS (D-MI): I don't think there's a Board of Directors in America that would hire you as a CEO with the kind of experience you have on your resume.
Someone who has never managed an organization, more than a 100 people, is going to come in and manage this incredibly important organization?
HEGSETH: Senator, I'm grateful to be hired by one of the most successful CEOs in American history, should I be confirmed.
(END VIDEO CLIP) COLLINS: And those senators are expected to vote on hex says nomination the day of the inauguration, next Monday.
My Republican source was in the room there today. He's a member of the Armed Services Committee. Republican senator from Oklahoma, Markwayne Mullin.
[21:05:00]
Those were the Democrats we heard from. Of course, Republicans had their fair share of questions.
But on this news tonight that Senator Ernst says she is a yes. We had not heard that from her yet. What's your reaction to that?
SEN. MARKWAYNE MULLIN (R-OK): Well, she did her due diligence. She said from the beginning, she was going to give Pete a fair chance.
Pete did exactly what he said he was going to do. He was going to take the fight to the members, not let the media figure this out themselves. And he went from meeting to meeting, meeting with one member at a time, explaining the situation, facing the tough questions.
And then, at the end of day, he handled himself with dignity and class. He took the oncoming fire. He was composed. And he handled himself with a great compassion for the job. And I think at the end of the day, Joni was like, That's what I was looking for, right there. And she waited till she saw what she needed to see, and committed to voting for him.
COLLINS: Do you think her saying yes, virtually assures that he will get confirmed?
MULLIN: Yes. Yes. She -- you know, I know there was a couple other Republicans that was looking at the way she was going to go, that they were going to follow her lead. I think, with her saying absolutely yes, she's going to support him now, all but confirms his ability to be the next Secretary of Defense.
COLLINS: So we heard from Senator Gary Peters there of Michigan, today, on whether or not he's qualified for the job. Not just the allegations against him, but whether or not he himself has the qualifications for this. You seemed incensed by that, when it was your turn to ask questions.
I want to just play a bit of what you said, when you had the microphone.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MULLIN: I'm just looking for qualifications. You didn't give me any qualifications.
Starts bringing up the fact that, what if you showed up drunk to your job? How many senators have showed up drunk to vote at night? (LAUGHTER)
MULLIN: Have any of you guys asked them to step down and resign from their job? And don't tell me you haven't seen it, because I know you have.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I mean, first off, that's a pretty serious accusation there. Do you want to name any of the senators that you're saying--
MULLIN: No--
COLLINS: --are drinking on the job?
MULLIN: No, and that's -- my whole point was, is that these senators, on the other side of the aisle, was trying to act like they were had more morals than Pete Hegseth. And they don't.
If you're going to hold someone accountable for their behavior, then hold everybody accountable. I'm not saying, I'm the most moral man or the perfect individual. I'm absolutely not. I wasn't the one calling him out. But if you're going to hold -- if you're going to hold someone at that standard, then hold everybody at that standard.
And it's a complete hypocrisy what they were showing, when they were talking about his affairs. There's multiple members of Congress has had affairs on their wives, and that they haven't called to be stepped down. They haven't called them to step down either.
And then when it talks about qualifications, what is the qualification to be the Secretary of Defense? The only qualification is you've got to be a United States citizen. That's it. Other than that, it is the President's choice, and it's Senate -- Senate has the right to advice and consent. And he meets the qualifications to be the -- to be the next Secretary of Defense.
COLLINS: But I was in that room today. And when you said that, I guess, the thought that went through my head was, if what you're saying is true, and your colleagues do show up drinking, to come to work and vote, which I think would maybe be concerning to those taxpayers who pay them, how is the bad behavior of a sitting senator, a defense of someone who wants to run the Pentagon?
MULLIN: It's not. What they were saying is he was incapable of doing their -- doing his job.
And Kaitlan, what I was trying to get to is, if you're capable of doing your job, and you're able to still drink on the job, or late in the evening, then don't tell me that Pete can't. And Pete had already said he's not going to drink, but they would just, they just kept hammering it.
Pete is qualified to do the job. He's a combat veteran. He's 20-year combat veteran. He's been under fire. He's pulled his own friends out of a combat zone. He's had to bury his own friends that's got killed in combat. The guy has bled, he has sweat, and he has -- he has proven his ability for his love for this country. He will do what needs to be done.
Doing -- what's the definition of insanity, is doing the same thing, expecting different results. And we keep recycling the same type of people as a Secretary of Defense. And where have they got us? Nowhere.
President Trump is wanting to put people into place that's going to shake things up and do things differently.
COLLINS: But on--
MULLIN: And Pete Hegseth is going to do that.
COLLINS: On the drinking. I mean, it wasn't just that he had a glass of wine. There were allegations from his former colleagues about him going out to strip clubs, or having to be escorted out of parties, because he had too much to drink. He denied that. But I'm just saying, those were the allegations. It wasn't just that he was seen at Cafe Milano.
MULLIN: And keep in mind that every one of them has been anonymous tips. No one's come forward and actually said this.
COLLINS: Well Senator Tim Kaine said today that--
MULLIN: And then he has said without question--
COLLINS: --you guys did have the names.
MULLIN: We haven't seen the names.
COLLINS: --of these people who have--
MULLIN: I haven't seen the names.
COLLINS: --who have said that he had too much to drink.
MULLIN: They sure didn't -- they sure didn't mention the names. They said they had one person, one name, that had said that. Pete has been adamant, from day one, that it is an outright lie.
Now, if no one's willing to put their name on it, and no one's willing to come forth on it? And believe me, they had plenty of time to come forth, they've all known this. Then all it is, is a smear campaign. And that's exactly what it was.
[21:10:00]
COLLINS: Yes. And on the other part of the hearing that really focused on him being qualified for the job, in addition to the allegations made against him. You have been an aggressive questioner of nominees in the past, over whether or not they were qualified for the -- it was for the Under Secretary of the Air Force.
I just want people to listen to how you've questioned candidates before.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MULLIN: I'm just looking for qualifications. You didn't give me any qualifications. You gave me your history, your story. But what makes you qualified to be the Under Secretary of the Air Force?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now, that was for Melissa Dalton. She had 20 years in defense, not very much in the Air Force, I believe. And you had really aggressive questions for her in that hearing.
So, it's not like it's unusual for someone to question someone's qualifications, and whether or not they should have a job. I mean, being a sitting senator is one thing, and obviously an esteemed position. But also to run the Pentagon, you're in charge of millions of people and billions of dollars.
MULLIN: I don't disagree with that whatsoever. What I was specifically referring to today, with Pete, is that they were saying he is unqualified because he has a past. Everybody has a past.
COLLINS: Well Gary Peters was saying because he hasn't actually run an organization, as Pete Hegseth himself acknowledged, with more than a 100 people in.
MULLIN: Well, and I go back to, there's most senators have never ran an organization, either. But when you start talking specifically about what they were going after him today, they were going after him because they were saying that he was unqualified because of his past history. We all have a past.
And here's what I tell people all the time. I've been blessed to be successful in business, moderately, or in a large way, depends on which way you define it. And I've never fired anybody, Kaitlan, for making a mistake. I've fired people for not admitting they made a mistake.
Now, that doesn't mean that they're going to admit it the first time. But once they finally admit they've made a mistake, you can move on, and people can grow from there.
Pete is able to grow, and he's going to be successful in what he's doing, because he's able to admit that he's had a past, and he's able to move past it, and say, Look, I am a changed man. He's proven he's a changed man. He's been very successful in his life.
COLLINS: Yes, but--
MULLIN: And now, he's going to be successful in being Secretary of Defense.
COLLINS: One of the questions he was asked at the end there, from Elissa Slotkin, one of your newest colleagues, was if he would decline to carry out an illegal order if he was given one. And she was saying, it's not just about President Trump, but it's about any president, if that was the case, should you decline to do so.
He would not just say yes to that. Did that bother you or give you any pause?
MULLIN: No, he had been very consistent throughout the entire hearing, saying, I'm not answering hypothetical questions.
COLLINS: But it's not really a hypothetical because--
MULLIN: It -- it was hypothetical.
COLLINS: --Mark Esper was in that position, and he felt like he got orders that he -- when it came to politicizing the military.
MULLIN: But it was--
COLLINS: It seemed like a non-answer.
MULLIN: --it was a very high -- is very hypothetical question. And that's what they kept, all the Democrats kept, trying to have hypothetical questions of, what if, what if, what if?
You don't know all the circumstances behind a what-if. It's not cut and dry. It's when someone has to make an in-the-moment decision, there's a lot of factors that go in play at that time. And so, a hypothetical question, in that type of atmosphere, is something you cannot answer.
COLLINS: But isn't that answer -- shouldn't that answer always be Yes, I would refuse to carry that out?
MULLIN: What he kept saying is he said, I'm going to follow the Constitution. He kept going back to, I'm going back to follow the Constitution. That is as about as straightforward as he can. Without answering the hypothetical, he always said that he will follow the Constitution of the United States of America. What else do you want?
He's going to -- he's going to raise his hand and swear to uphold the Constitution of the United States. If he's saying he will always uphold the Constitution of the United States, then he's going to be within the boundaries of the law to do so.
COLLINS: You have been one of his most ardent backers. Senator Mullin, thank you for coming on and joining us tonight, after the hearing.
MULLIN: Thank you for having me on, Kaitlan. Thank you.
COLLINS: We're going to get perspective from a Democrat, who also questioned Hegseth. Up next, Senator Elizabeth Warren will join me live. She had a pretty intense line of questioning for him.
Also tonight, we are keeping a close eye on the winds in Los Angeles, as the next 24 hours, we are told, are critical.
CNN is also uncovering, tonight, data showing that L.A. has one of the most understaffed fire departments in the United States. [21:15:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: As we monitor the latest from Los Angeles, the death toll there has risen to at least 25 people tonight. California officials are issuing a new warning, saying that if you are in the Palisades area, this evening, quote, Get prepared to evacuate now.
Now, the winds have not been as strong as authorities had first been worried about, that we were talking about, last night. But fire officials and residents are still bracing for the next few hours ahead, should those winds pick up and kickstart any new fires that they are keeping a very close eye on.
CNN's Erin Burnett joins us live from Altadena tonight.
And Erin, there's been a lot of uncertainty just over what the next few hours will bring. I mean, I can't imagine what that feels like for people, who are just sitting at home, waiting to see how these winds kind of determine the fate of their families.
But, as this is happening, with no rain in the forecast for the next few days, what are you hearing from officials, that they're watching this evening?
ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: So tonight, obviously, it's dark here now.
And Kaitlan, where I'm standing off to my right is the San Gabriel Mountains, completely shrouded in darkness. But that is an area right here of real concern. Those high winds, they expect to be here, and they're really now expecting it to be starting sort of 03:00, 03:30 in the morning.
The fire crews we were with today are on high alert for that. They were dropping in anticipation of that, Kaitlan. Across the mountain, big, giant red strip we saw, at one point, a fire retardant to try to establish a line.
And then, where we are now, in these mountains, helicopters and fire crews all day, a swarm of activity, looking for any sort of sparks, looking for hot spots. And they're worried, because of the winds, that embers can just blow right in.
[21:20:00]
Where we are in the Altadena line. On one side, you have so much destruction. On the other, no destruction at all, right, an area that has not burned in decades, and they are so worried about that, and trying to defend it. Those are some of the big fears that they have tonight.
But Kaitlan, the forecast right now is for 03:00, 03:30 in the morning. And firefighters telling me now, of course, they're all -- they're all on alert, they're all on call for that, and they anticipate that to go for about 12 hours. And within that, they've put their defenses up, and it's just trying to get to where they need to get to, as quickly as they can, to prevent a wildfire from sparking another massive urban fire.
COLLINS: Yes, and just to see the work that these firefighters are doing, while also, at the same time, concerned about their own families, their own homes.
I know you spent time today with one -- a firefighter in Altadena, who had lost his home, after he evacuated with his wife and their two kids. What was his just -- I mean, how is he processing all of this?
BURNETT: Kaitlan, it's interesting. He talked about how, as a firefighter, you see other people's trauma all the time. They're EMT, you know, they see loss and they see death all the time. And he said, We detach from that, we go in, we do our jobs.
The fire. He was sitting with his family, having dinner. They saw the fire in the distance, here in Altadena. He gets called to work. He goes to work.
16 hours later, off of a shift of trying to desperately save homes, a fire -- by the way, he and his crew told us, they said, no matter what resources they had, they would have been overwhelmed, that they have never seen anything like this in their decades-long careers.
But after 16 hours, he checks in with his wife, and his house is gone. His wife and children had to evacuate.
He'd driven by the house once, but he hadn't gone in it. And so, he came with us today. He and his crew, we came in the rig. It was his first time back. He's ready tonight for those winds. He's going to be on duty.
And we went into the house. And here is what happened, a pretty incredible thing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHIEN YU, FIREFIGHTER WHO LOST HOME IN FIRE: When we go to a house fire, you kind of detach, you know, and you just try to do what's best for the homeowner, and you put their fire out and kind of salvage what we can, we pull what we can from them, and hopefully some other stuff, make it. But this is just, just gone.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: I mean, Kaitlan, it was -- it was hard for him to process that.
And then we were sitting there, and with his crew, and he said, You know, I left my wedding ring when I went to work.
And they said, Wait, what?
And he's going through, and he's like, Well, this is where the bedroom would have been. And I mean, that they -- so they run to the rig, they get a shovel.
And I'm checking Wait, at what temperature does gold melt? About 1,900 degrees Fahrenheit. I said, Are we going to be OK?
And they go, Yes, these fires were about 1,200, we know.
And so, we found it.
COLLINS: Wow.
BURNETT: I mean, they dug and dug and they found that ring.
And then, Kaitlan, his wife, who is a HAZMAT specialist, she hadn't been back to the house. But because of her job, she's able to be in the evacuated area, she was surveying. She drove up, and she gets out, and he shows her the ring.
And it's just a sort of a small moment, a poignant moment, but just of incredible joy and trauma for that family, all at once. But he got that ring back, and it was just, it was a beautiful moment.
COLLINS: That is like the best thing that I've heard today, just watching this, and to see that moment of them being able--
BURNETT: Yes, it was.
COLLINS: --to find something so small but meaningful.
BURNETT: It really -- it really was. It was a beautiful thing. And just to see them together as they are just trying to chart the next step of their lives. And as I said, tonight, full on, on duty with his crew, ready to come fight more fires.
COLLINS: Yes, just amid so much loss, it's nice to have that, that small moment. Erin, thank you for bringing us that. Thank you for being there on the ground.
BURNETT: You bet.
COLLINS: And so many people have asked how they can help, not just the firefighters, but everyone here in this situation, living through this. If you want to help, if you want to reach out, you can go to CNN.com/impact. It's a list of vetted organizations. So far, our viewers have raised over half a million dollars. It's been amazing to watch.
We're going to get back to our big stories here in politics, right after this. The first big confirmation hearing of the incoming Trump administration, it was for Defense secretary pick, Pete Hegseth.
Senator Elizabeth Warren was in the room. She was pressing senator -- or pressing Pete Hegseth today. And she is my next source.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) COLLINS: I was in the room as Pete Hegseth was being questioned and really grilled by a lot of senators today, during his confirmation hearing. It was a room that was filled with allies of President-elect Donald Trump's. They offered him a round of applause, when he came into the room, speaking to the groundswell of support from Trump's side that has been behind him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:25:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Pete Hegseth faced a barrage of questions at his confirmation hearing, here in Washington today.
But there was one line of questioning, in particular, that was consistent throughout it all, among the women on the Senate Armed Services Committee.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JEANNE SHAHEEN (D-NH): Why should women in our military, if you were the Secretary of Defense, believe that they would have a fair shot and an equal opportunity to rise through the ranks?
SEN. KIRSTEN GILLIBRAND (D-NY): We have hundreds, hundreds of women who are currently in the infantry, lethal members of our military, serving in the infantry. But you degrade them.
HIRONO: You previously have made a series of inflammatory statements about women in combat.
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D-MA): About your views of women in the military, and I just want to know what changed in the 32 days, that the song you sang is not the song you come in here today to sing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Hegseth, over the course of four hours, answered most of those questions, like this.
[21:30:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HEGSETH: I would point out, I have never disparaged women serving in the military.
Senator, the concerns I have and the concerns of many have had, especially in ground combat units.
I respect every single female service member that has put on the uniform, past and present.
(END VIDEO CLIP) COLLINS: My Democratic source tonight, is Massachusetts senator, Elizabeth Warren, who you saw questioning Hegseth there.
Is it safe to assume you are a no, on Pete Hegseth?
WARREN: Yes, it's safe to assume that. And it's also safe to assume that when he says he has never disparaged women in the military, he's just trying to see what he can get away with. Because we've got the video. We've got him in print.
When he has just said, as recently as November of 2024, straight up, Women do not belong in combat. He has said, they don't belong in the military, at various points, but do not belong in combat. Not qualified, not Well, if they can run, or If they can do this, or If they can do that. They do not belong in combat. In fact, in his book, do you know what he says they should be doing? Cooking.
COLLINS: Senator Joni Ernst is a female veteran on the Senate Armed Services Committee. She came out, tonight, saying that she will vote yes on--
WARREN: I understand that.
COLLINS: --Pete Hegseth.
WARREN: Look, I got a figure, there are about a quarter of a million women who are on active-duty military service, right now, who are feeling pretty lonely that there is not a single Republican, so far, who will stand up for them. And instead, are willing to pass along a person, to be the Secretary of Defense, who has said, straight up, that he doesn't want to see women in combat, and doesn't think that women make good soldiers.
COLLINS: Can I ask you? And maybe I saw this wrong, so please tell me.
WARREN: Please.
COLLINS: But I was there in the hearing room today. Reporters kind of sit behind the guests. But a clear view of the senators make -- asking their questions.
When Senator Joni Ernst got -- had her seven minutes, and she first entered in a letter of praise for Pete Hegseth into the record, you seemed to have a reaction to that, as you were watching. She was the Senator that everyone was essentially watching.
WARREN: Well, obviously, because of Joni's history, and frankly, because of the excellent work she has done for so long, on behalf of our active-duty women, serving in combat, serving in other roles in the military. I think everyone was very much focused on her.
But as I said, where we've ended up, right now, is there's not a single Republican, who's willing to stand up for the women in active- duty service.
COLLINS: Was Pete Hegseth's pledge to Senator Joni Ernst, in her line of questioning, to appoint a special adviser at the Pentagon, to deal with sexual assault and prevention, was that sufficient for you?
WARREN: No. And let me explain why.
He has spent 12 years that we can document, saying the same thing over and over, really, no variation in it, about how women do not belong in combat, it's lowering standards to have women in combat. That -- straight up -- I mean, these are his words, straight up, that women should not serve in combat, over and over.
And then, in this very short period of time when he gets nominated, he suddenly reverses that by a 180 degrees. And he can't explain what's different today than a month ago, when he was saying something entirely different. And that means, if that's the case, it kind of sounds a lot like he'll say whatever he needs to say, to make it through the confirmation. And then, one presumes, he goes back to saying what he really believes.
COLLINS: And do you think he will take action on that? What is your concern? I mean, because with her yes, he's basically on a glide path to confirmation, if nothing huge pops up--
WARREN: Right.
COLLINS: --in the next six days.
Are you arguing that he'll change his position, or he'll go back to his original position, when he is in charge of the Pentagon?
WARREN: I think it's -- I think it's every part of this.
Keep in mind, not every decision, in fact, the overwhelming majority of decisions that he makes, if he is the Secretary of Defense, are things that are made in public. Most of this will happen in private. That's how many things happen, when opportunities are taken away from people, when people are shut out, when people are not given a chance to be able to do what they can do and to compete.
300,000 women have served in combat since 9/11. They've served in Iraq, and in Afghanistan. And Pete Hegseth has insulted every single one of them.
COLLINS: Democrats today, and the line of questioning that you had from your colleagues, do you think your party was effective, in questioning Pete Hegseth?
[21:35:00]
WARREN: Well, what is your measure of effective? Did we cause the Republicans to say, You're right, we're going to turn our backs on Pete Hegseth? Or, more importantly, We're going to stand up to Donald Trump? No, not a single one said they were willing to stand up to Donald Trump.
Notwithstanding Pete Hegseth's history of being drunk on work events. Notwithstanding the credible claims of sexual assault. Notwithstanding what he said about a quarter of a million women, who now serve in the active-duty military. Notwithstanding the fact that he has run only two very small organizations, and run them both into the ground, financially.
Notwithstanding the fact that in that hearing, he could not answer basic questions about his constitutional oath and responsibilities, or basic questions about whether he even supports the Geneva Convention.
I mean, these are things that -- this is about the job of the Secretary of Defense. What the Democrats did, and I think did very well, is that we asked the right questions, and put it out there in front of the American people.
We wanted a second round of questioning, so we could ask even more. We wanted to see the FBI report.
COLLINS: Right. And that was--
WARREN: We wanted to make more of these reports public.
COLLINS: More questions were denied by the Chairman--
WARREN: Yes.
COLLINS: --despite two requests from the Ranking Member for Democrats. And we've seen that in some past hearings, he said it was in agreement.
But on the FBI report, Ranking Member -- just rank-and-file members did not get to actually see that.
WARREN: No.
COLLINS: The Chairman did, and the Ranking Member--
WARREN: Right.
COLLINS: --which they argued is precedent. That is typically the course. There have been some exceptions.
Should Democrats have fought harder?
WARREN: Well--
COLLINS: Did you want the ranking Democrat to fight harder to get access to that FBI report?
WARREN: Let's remember that when there was a credible claim of a problem with alcohol, and the kind of risk that would be for a Secretary of Defense, who has to be ready to answer the phone, at 03:00 in the morning, and make split-second decisions. That was John Hightower (ph). And they gave the FBI report not just to everybody on the committee, but to everybody in the entire United States Senate.
Because ultimately, these are job interviews, for some of the most important jobs in our country. And what the Democrats are asking for is, Let us at least see all of the information that has been gathered. COLLINS: But did Democrats ask enough, I guess, is my question.
WARREN: Well, certainly the Chair of the committee asked, at the beginning of the hearing, in the formal process, which is what he should do. I've certainly called for it publicly. Others have called for it publicly.
And frankly, I think it's pretty outrageous that the Republicans want to keep hiding that. Because it takes you back to this fundamental question. This is a job interview. If you think there's nothing in that FBI report that the American people should be worried about, then put the FBI report out there, where at least the senators on the committee can see it.
COLLINS: Yes. And the Trump team felt that the FBI report essentially had no negative information--
WARREN: Well, then show it to us.
COLLINS: --tell us that they warrant (ph).
WARREN: If there's no negative information, they should be willing to frame it and hang it on the wall.
COLLINS: So, with Joni Ernst saying she's a yes to Pete Hegseth, that seems to seal his confirmation.
You do have many other hearings ahead of you, though. What are the takeaways for your party here? Because the Republicans stay united, they can pretty much get anyone confirmed.
What should the Democrats takeaways be, for how to strategize for future hearings, for Pam Bondi for attorney general tomorrow, or Kash Patel for FBI director, or any of these other Cabinet nominees?
WARREN: Well, look, our job is not to roll over and play dead. Our job is to do our homework, which it was clear that we had done, and to come and to hold these nominees accountable.
At the end of the day, we all take an oath in the United States Senate, an oath to the Constitution. And part of our responsibilities are advice and consent. How we execute on that oath, in part, is that we do our jobs in these hearings.
Now, if Republicans want to say that they're going to go ahead and vote for Pete Hegseth? It is their vote. They legally can do that. They can -- they are entitled to do that. But I think it's important to bring this in front of the American people and make it very, very clear who Donald Trump is putting in office, to determine the future of the United States of America.
When Pete Hegseth demeans women, the way that he has, when there are questions about sexual assault? When he has never managed anything bigger than a 50-person operation, and he's about to take on something with a $850 billion budget, and more than 3 million employees? When that's the case, and that's who Donald Trump is putting in charge, then understand our national defense is put at risk. What we do, right now, is we point that out, as loudly and as clearly as we can.
COLLINS: Senator Elizabeth Warren, thank you for your time tonight.
WARREN: You bet.
COLLINS: Thanks for joining us.
[21:40:00]
Also tonight, we just learned who is skipping Donald Trump's second inauguration six weeks -- six days from today, breaking tradition. Michelle Obama. Her husband, former President Barack Obama, will be in attendance. Of course, this comes just a few days after Jimmy Carter's funeral. More on who will be there. Maybe some surprises ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Michelle Obama's office confirming to CNN tonight that she will skip Donald Trump's inauguration, next Monday, without explaining why she's going to be absent at an event that is traditionally attended by both former presidents and their spouses. Notable exception from last year. This means the former first lady will not come face-to-face with the President-elect.
[21:45:00]
This also comes after she missed Jimmy Carter's state funeral, here in Washington, last week, where, as you can tell by the seating chart that you're looking at here, had she gone, she would have been sitting next to Trump himself.
Former President Obama will attend to the inauguration, we are told.
And our sources are saying tonight that also, so will three of the richest men in the world. Tesla CEO, Elon Musk. Amazon founder, Jeff Bezos. And Meta CEO, Mark Zuckerberg, will all have prime seating for that ceremony, sitting near Trump's Cabinet picks and administration officials.
I want to bring in my political sources tonight.
Democratic congressman, Tom Suozzi, of New York.
And Kevin Madden, a former senior adviser to Mitt Romney.
Congressman, what do you make of the former first lady deciding she's not going to attend the inauguration, as people are looking into who's there, who wasn't. And there's been a lot of outrage, over this, from some people. But I mean, Trump himself did not attend the inauguration, famously, last year.
REP. TOM SUOZZI (D-NY): Yes, I mean, she doesn't want to go. I mean, it's that maybe she's enjoying her time that she's spending wherever she is, or maybe she doesn't want to be there. No, I wouldn't read too much into it. I mean, it's the same, as you said, in your opening, she didn't go to the Carter funeral either. So, I mean, she doesn't want to go.
COLLINS: Do you see it as a statement yourself?
SUOZZI: No. Not at all.
COLLINS: The absence?
KEVIN MADDEN, ADVISER, 2008 & 2012 ROMNEY PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGNS, SENIOR PARTNER, PENTA GROUP: I don't either. Yes, I think -- I think the Congressman's right.
I mean, if you talk to Republicans, Democrats, anybody who's had any interactions with Michelle Obama, she does not really love this stuff, the politics. She doesn't love the pomp and circumstance that comes with a lot of the political sort of histories that we have, right?
COLLINS: Well also--
MADDEN: A lot of the history -- a lot of the traditions that we have, so.
COLLINS: In addition to that, the guy being sworn in has questioned--
SUOZZI: Right.
COLLINS: --her husband's birth.
SUOZZI: My wife's not coming either.
COLLINS: Where he was born.
MADDEN: And one of the worst, I think, for Michelle Obama, and it probably wouldn't be authentic to herself, if she went, not wanting to be there, right?
COLLINS: Yes.
MADDEN: And then, imagine all -- and we know, like with the cameras all being on her, trying to get all the reactions, if you think about just the roadblock coverage that every single tiny reaction that came from President Carter's funeral.
COLLINS: Yes.
MADDEN: I mean, imagine having that--
COLLINS: I mean, we're looking at it, right here.
MADDEN: Right?
SUOZZI: And let me just say that, you know--
MADDEN: Right.
SUOZZI: --you're not hearing as much from Democrats, this time, about a mass number of people not coming. I think it's just a different tone. I mean, he's the President of the United States of America.
COLLINS: Are you going?
SUOZZI: Of course, I'm going. I went the first time as well. But--
COLLINS: And why do you think it's important for you to go? You're an elected member of Congress, of course.
SUOZZI: He's the President of the United States of America. I didn't vote for him. But he's the President. So, I'm going to the United States President's inauguration.
COLLINS: Yes, I think the whole idea like norms being eroded has kind of had its turn in Washington.
MADDEN: Yes.
COLLINS: But I do wonder, what do you make of what happened with Vice President Harris? She has not invited Vice President-elect JD Vance to come over to the Naval Observatory, to have any kind of pre- inauguration meeting, we are told. That typically, is standard. Or at least a conversation between the two of them.
MADDEN: Yes, I don't know what the reporting has been on why that is. But it's a missed opportunity.
I think the inaugurations have always been this celebration. I mean, I remember the famous words of Bill Clinton at his first inauguration, that we hold these celebrations in the depth of winter, but they really are a thawing of the political sort of partisanship that we usually have in our country. At least there's an opportunity to do that.
So, I think having -- had Vice President Harris had JD Vance there, it would have been a nice gesture and something to build on.
COLLINS: The people who will be there, though, are people who are certainly trying to get in good with Trump. I mean, Elon Musk already certainly was there. Raised a lot of money for him.
But Jeff Bezos, Mark Zuckerberg, Sam Altman from OpenAI, we've just heard, is going. I think, believe, potentially, Tim Cook is also going to be attending. A lot of these are people who either Trump said some of them should be in jail, or was famously critical of them, or vice versa.
What is your view, as a member of Congress, with oversight? They have a lot of these contracts, that these guys have with the federal government. What's your view of that?
SUOZZI: Well, attending the inauguration, I mean, that's, I think--
COLLINS: And donating.
SUOZZI: --I think it's kind of normal. But there's a lot of financial interest involved here, right now, in that, for example, if TikTok is banned in the United States of America, where's that business going to go? It's going to all go to Facebook and to Meta.
But that's, to him showing up at the inauguration or contributing to the inauguration, that's happened throughout history. We just have to have our eyes open, as we go along and watch what's going on.
COLLINS: But it does come as there's a fascinating split happening inside the MAGA world, between Elon Musk and Steve Bannon.
And Steve Bannon was coming out today, saying, I will get Elon Musk kicked out by the time he's inaugurated.
SUOZZI: Oh my gosh (ph).
COLLINS: He called him truly evil. He downplayed the relationship. He said, Of course, you get a seat at the table when you give this much money, he said, But I always argued it can't be the head of the table.
MADDEN: Yes, well, look, first of all, what would it be a Republican Party without some internal battles, right now, particularly--
SUOZZI: Keep that up.
MADDEN: --particularly even a couple of days before we even start the inauguration, right?
But look, these type of fights are going to happen. Trump could stop it. He doesn't. Why? He likes to see a lot of these squabbles--
SUOZZI: Yes.
MADDEN: --and then he likes to see who's going to win and who's not, and then sort of pick a side.
[21:50:00]
I think one of the things that's interesting is Trump is a much more transactional politician. He is not somebody who is sort of more to an ideological viewpoint. So seeing these fights play out sort of helps them gauge which way the directions go inside of the party.
SUOZZI: They kind of -- they want to be around the cool kids, you know? It's like high school. Everybody's like, jockeying, who's going to be closer.
COLLINS: It is like high school. And that is not a compliment.
Congressman. Kevin Madden. Great to have you both here tonight.
Also, we're going to check back in with Los Angeles, in a moment, as they are bracing for more wind, the potential for more fires tonight.
Democrats are facing another kind of storm, when it comes to leadership. There are tough questions about the preparations and the response, especially for Mayor Karen Bass. Hear what she's saying tonight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:55:00]
COLLINS: Tonight, a new CNN investigation finds that the Los Angeles Fire Department has long been one of the most understaffed crews in the nation.
Just last month, a group of firefighters visiting City Hall, said the Department was, quote, At its breaking point.
As Democrats who run the city and the state are now facing major questions over their response. Most of that scrutiny in recent days has been placed directly at the feet of Mayor Karen Bass.
Earlier, the Mayor defended her role.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Who's leading this response?
MAYOR KAREN BASS, LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA: I am leading this response.
REPORTER: Are you happy with how the response is going past and present?
BASS: Well, I mean, you know, everything could be better. There is no question about that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My source tonight is L.A. resident, Peter Hamby, who is also a Founding Partner of Puck News, and host of Snapchat's Good Luck America.
And it's great to have you here, because you wrote this very detailed piece in Puck, the headline, The Blood Is in the Water for Karen Bass.
When you look at this, and you hear from her, and just what the last few days have been like, without her critics, blaming everything on her, what is the confidence level in her leadership, right now, in L.A.?
PETER HAMBY, FOUNDING PARTNER, PUCK NEWS, HOST, SNAPCHAT'S "GOOD LUCK AMERICA": Based on calls with Democrats here, Kaitlan, and people who work in city politics and state politics, but more importantly than that, my friends, my neighbors, strangers I talk to, out here in Los Angeles, around the city, the trust in her is -- has been incinerated, along with thousands of houses.
She, by leaving the state -- the issue is not the reservoir that may or may not have been filled under her watch. The issue isn't necessarily budget cuts that you just mentioned, or this -- the police department or the sheriff's office, whatever.
The issue is that she knew the city was facing a calamitous situation, on Friday, January 3rd, and possibly Thursday, according to the National Weather Service, and she still chose to leave.
And on top of that, we've all seen the video of her being ambushed, yes, by a Sky News reporter. But standing stone-faced in silence while this reporter, for 92 seconds, asked her, Do you have anything to say to the City of Los Angeles?
And so, you and I both covered a lot of politicians over the years, Kaitlan. When you lose that trust, especially in our current era, when people choose their own facts from different media sources, trust with institutions and government has been eroding, like, once you lose it, you can't get it back.
And so, the City of Los Angeles is a Byzantine place. It is spread out geographically, by race, by class. The government is Byzantine. You've got the county. You've got commissioners. The water department that was in charge of that reservoir has five commissioners. They're appointed by the Mayor. And the Mayor doesn't have that much power.
So because of that, though, the one thing you have to do, as Mayor, is show up and show leadership. And in those first few days, especially that first Tuesday night, which was very scary here, around the city, she wasn't here, and that matters a lot.
And she said, I think she told CBS today, Kaitlan, if she could do it again, she wouldn't go. So she knows that was the issue here.
COLLINS: Yes, she was asked because -- and for those who don't know the reason this has gotten so much scrutiny as well, is she pledged to not take these kind of international trips when she first took office.
And she was asked, Looking back, would you have taken that trip overseas? And she kind of started to say, You know, no, I'm going to focus today on. And then she said, No. She had a pretty emphatic no, in that moment, about whether or not she'd go on this trip.
But I guess, say if you're someone who liked Karen Bass or donated to her, voted for her, and you're watching this. What is that leadership been like in the days since she's been back from -- in the last few days? Has anything changed the view of that?
HAMBY: I don't think so. I mean, I quoted Ari Emanuel, who is a huge, obviously, player in Hollywood and media, in my Puck article. He was a donor for Karen Bass. He said, If she left after knowing this was going to happen or possibly going to happen, that is, quote, A dereliction of duty. I think that's a pretty common sentiment around the city.
So no matter -- I have, like KTLA on in my office here, all day long, as during these fires. You see her on camera. She's deferring to all these other officials here in the city. But once you, again, lose the public trust, you lose that integrity, people just stop giving you the benefit of the doubt.
[22:00:00]
And I will say also, you mentioned her campaign. I went back and watched some old campaign ads from 2022, when she ran for mayor. Literally verbatim, Kaitlan, in the ads, she says, If there is a crisis, I will run to it. She also said in another ad, I'm coming home to L.A., from Congress, because the city is on fire. So like two ads that she has invalidated, based just on these last few days.
There are other officials doing great work. The Sheriff, Robert Luna, is--
COLLINS: Yes.
HAMBY: --all over television. The Fire Chief, the firefighters, obviously. Gavin Newsom is all over--
COLLINS: Yes.
HAMBY: --every screen here.
So, I just think of all the people in Los Angeles, she is the one who is the punching bag at the moment.
COLLINS: Yes, a lot of scrutiny for all of them.
Peter Hamby, thank you for joining us, tonight.
Thank you all so much for joining us here.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" is up next.
