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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
AP: Biden Won't Enforce TikTok Ban, Leaving Fate Of App To Trump; Trump Names Enemies Whose Ex-Staffers Can't Work In White House; Rudy Giuliani Gets To Keep New York & Florida Homes In Settlement With Georgia Election Workers He Defamed. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired January 16, 2025 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: --for people in Malibu, who get in touch with the Brigade, and say, Please come to my house, help me, give me information, help me harden my house? The cost of that appointment is zero, it's free.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: Yes.
TUCHMAN: So, these Brigade people are very noble people.
COOPER: Yes.
TUCHMAN: Anderson.
COOPER: Gary Tuchman, thank you very much. Appreciate it.
A reminder. If you want to help those affected by the Los Angeles area wildfires, go to CNN.com/impact.
That's it for us. The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now. I'll see you, tomorrow.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Straight from THE SOURCE tonight.
Within hours, we could hear from the Supreme Court on the fate of TikTok, as the company is staring down a ban in the U.S., on national security grounds. TikTok's CEO is getting closer to President-elect Trump, quite literally, this evening.
There's also last minute drama in Israel, on the ceasefire deal that will free dozens of hostages, including Americans. We'll speak with an inside source on the status of those negotiations.
And Rudy Giuliani has just settled with the election workers he defamed. He gets to keep his prized possessions. But how is he footing the million-dollar bill, and who may be helping him?
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
Tonight, the U.S. Supreme Court has given last minute notice that opinions may be coming, in just hours from now. And the entire world, from D.C., to Beijing, is closely watching to see if that includes the fate of TikTok.
About a 170 million Americans use the app that now finds itself teetering on the brink of an outright ban in the U.S., starting this Sunday, unless ByteDance sells it to a non-Chinese company.
Lawmakers from both parties, here in Washington, overwhelmingly voted for that ban, citing serious national security concerns that they had. But now, those parties, in the outgoing and incoming administrations, are apparently all trying to avoid the consequences of their own vote.
The Senate's top Democrat, Chuck Schumer, is among those who is publicly pleading for more time tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): The law passed last year was intended to sever TikTok from the influence of the CCP while keeping the app available for Americans. It's clear that more time is needed to find an American buyer and not disrupt the lives and livelihoods of millions of Americans.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now, Schumer says he will work with the incoming administration, the Trump administration, to find a solution here, as the Associated Press is reporting tonight that President Biden won't enforce a ban that is set to take effect the day before he leaves office.
President-elect Trump is now among TikTok's biggest fans. He's vowed to come to its rescue amid all of this, believing that it helped him win reelection by winning over young voters.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND CURRENT PRESIDENTIAL- ELECT: I have a warm spot in my heart for TikTok.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now, I reported that TikTok's CEO was seen with Trump at Mar- a-Lago, last month.
And we're learning from sources tonight that Shou Chew will also be on the VIP list, at his inauguration, on Monday. He'll be in powerful company there, no doubt, a prime seat alongside the other notable tech titans, who have ingratiated themselves with Trump and his team. Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerberg and Jeff Bezos, of X, Meta and Amazon. The CEOs of Apple, Google and OpenAI.
To set the scene for you of just how close they'll be. This was the stage, the first time around, when Trump was inaugurated eight years ago. Now, Chew and everyone else will be sitting among Trump's Cabinet picks, the top lawmakers in Washington, his family and, of course, not far from the once and future President himself.
My source tonight is the veteran tech insider, Kara Swisher, the host of the podcasts, "On with Kara Swisher" and "Pivot."
Kara, just on this news that Biden is not going to enforce the ban that he signed. Obviously, part of this is a timing thing, because of when this is going into effect--
KARA SWISHER, CNN CONTRIBUTOR, HOST, "ON WITH KARA SWISHER" & "PIVOT" PODCASTS: Sure.
COLLINS: --right before Trump takes office.
But, just what is your reaction to that?
SWISHER: Well, I know, and they were all for it until they were against it. And we've basically told China -- they've called our bluff. China's called our bluff, and we've shown ourselves to be wimps. I mean, if they passed this thing, and believed in it, and they were so vehement about it, what's happening now?
I think Biden, there's just a day, so it doesn't really matter. And the question is whether Apple and Google, which have the two biggest app stores, and the only app stores, really, will enforce it, following the Supreme Court -- whatever the Supreme Court says.
If the Supreme Court upholds the ban, they're going against the Supreme Court. Enforcement doesn't really matter. And years from now, they could be liable, presumably.
COLLINS: Yes, and obviously, as the -- as TikTok has said, they were confident they'd went out in terms of the legal -- and in court ever since Biden signed this.
SWISHER: Right.
COLLINS: But the CEO was very clearly making a political play here, by meeting with Trump. He's now getting the VIP treatment. He's going to be out there, for the inauguration. I mean, he seems to think, that is basically his only option here, a political lifeline, from the incoming administration.
[21:05:00]
SWISHER: But there isn't one, necessarily. They've got to pass another law. There's a law, so they have to either -- not enforcing it doesn't work. An executive order doesn't work. I mean, as The Post correctly wrote, it's a -- it's just a press release on nicer stationery, essentially. And it's got to be another law, to surpass this one, or else these companies will be in violation, if the Supreme Court rules that way.
Now Trump could -- there's all kinds of delay tactics. They have 90 more days, et cetera, et cetera. But the fact of the matter is, this thing was never going to sell to a U.S. group, because the algorithm doesn't go with it. And without the algorithm, this is just a brand.
And so, the question is, who won here? And I think the only thing you can say, definitively, is the CCP, which does not control TikTok, and they have maintained that it doesn't, but they certainly have influence. And that's an astonishing thing, in this day and age, to let a -- let a country have so much sway over our citizens.
COLLINS: Well, and just to go back to what you said about, This is really up to Google and Apple. I mean, all of these CEOs are going to be sitting, right there, on Monday, with Shou Chew, on the dais at the inauguration, altogether, potentially side by side?
SWISHER: Yes, absolutely. The question is, what are they going to do there in a terrible situation? Because if Trump says, Don't do it? Years from now, they can still be liable, unless they overturn the legislation. There's so much uncertainty here, it's crazy.
But they're there to try to -- all of them are trying to curry favor on lots of different topics, by the way. The only one missing there is Microsoft CEO, Satya Nadella, which is interesting to me. And a lot of media executives don't seem to be there.
But what's interesting is what they're going to do. And honestly, I would follow the Supreme Court, until Congress does something else. But both Democrats and Republicans really have egg on their face. That statement by Chuck Schumer was laughable, I'm sorry.
COLLINS: Yes, isn't that why people hate Washington?
SWISHER: Let me be bipartisan.
COLLINS: That like, I mean, we heard from all these lawmakers.
SWISHER: I -- yes.
COLLINS: We watched them grill Shou Chew, when he was here on Capitol Hill during--
SWISHER: Yes.
COLLINS: --in his hearing. And then they overwhelmingly passed this. This wasn't on party line--
SWISHER: Yes.
COLLINS: --or anything close.
SWISHER: No.
COLLINS: I mean, this was an overwhelmingly passed bill.
SWISHER: Yes, it was. And here's the thing. They should have done a wider one, around privacy and issues, not just about foreign ownership, all kinds of things. Instead, they decided to make headlines with a ban.
And what's really funny about this is it's Donald Trump who started this, the whole thing off with an executive order, banning TikTok, or trying to ban TikTok. And now, he has financial interests, and one of his big -- big donors is a 15 percent owner of it, Jeff Yass. So, the whole thing is such a -- such a -- we look ridiculous, and I'm
certain the Chinese government is laughing at us the entire way. But nothing's going to happen here.
COLLINS: We'll see what happens. A fancy stationary as an executive order.
Kara Swisher, thank you for that.
SWISHER: Thank you.
COLLINS: Also joining us here tonight.
New York Times reporter, Teddy Schleifer.
And former White House political director, during Trump's first term, Bill Stepien.
Bill, to what Kara said, I remember when Trump was on Air Force One, he came back, he told reporters, I'm going to ban TikTok.
Now, he is not the only person who is reversing his position here. Clearly, this is a bipartisan hypocrisy that is happening.
But what do you make of this stunning turnabout from Republicans passing this, to now saying, OK, wait -- and Democrats, to, Wait, hold on a second.
BILL STEPIEN, FORMER WHITE HOUSE POLITICAL DIRECTOR UNDER PRES. TRUMP: I don't know a thing about the app or technology in general.
But this is smart politics, right? I mean, who have Republicans struggled with over the years? Young voters, female voters. Those are overwhelmingly the people using this app. Also, public opinion has turned. A year ago, 50 percent supported a ban. It's down to 32 percent.
By the way, next week, I'd rather be fighting this battle, publicly, than talking about mass deportations.
COLLINS: Well, and Jeff Yass, who she mentioned there, is a huge donor to Trump. He's met with him. People who do that. But do you think part of this, that is why Trump has shifted his opinion on this, is because he gets favorable support on TikTok. I mean, that is something -- he has an aide that has a nickname with TikTok in it that is around him all the time. Do you think that is more of what has driven his change in this?
STEPIEN: I don't think so. I think he sees that this helped drive him to election victory. Much of the way he's grown the party with Black voters, Hispanic voters, organized labor. This helped, this was a mechanism to propel him to victory. So, I think that, more than just flattery online, had a lot to do with it.
COLLINS: It's been fascinating to see this play out, on Capitol Hill, today. We're hearing from Senator Ed Markey, a Democrat, who voted yes, I should note, on this ban, on forcing them to sell the company to a non-Chinese company.
I want you to listen to what he had to say about TikTok today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. ED MARKEY (D-MA): What they're doing is no different than what Facebook is doing, what Instagram is doing, what all the American social media companies are doing. They're in no different situation.
It's probably helpful that the President -- the CEO of TikTok, is going to be in town, because he personifies, he puts the human face on what the impact is going to be on 170 million Americans.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: They have had a very effective lobbying effort. And Washington has a lot of those, to be clear.
[21:10:00]
TEDDY SCHLEIFER, REPORTER, THE NEW YORK TIMES: Sure. I mean, at first, TikTok was struggling, the fact that their CEO was not American, right? That was something that when Shou Chew came to Congress, I believe it was last year, they were saying, there were some Republicans saying, What exactly are connections to the CCP? He did offend -- himself a Singaporean, if you recall.
They now, over the last -- we'll see whether or not this works. I mean, let's not -- let's not pre-judge that, the lobbying campaign has worked. But if it does, I mean, this is a pretty damn impressive inside-baseball game of winning in Trump's Washington, which is, you donate, you show up.
I think what Bill's point is like, is Trump ideologically that committed to banning TikTok, or is this a transactional approach? Because the upside of being transactional is you're always open for business.
And if TikTok can win, then I think that honestly offers inspiration to any company, down the line, that has any problem to say, Hey, there's a way you can kind of win this by playing inside baseball in Washington.
COLLINS: You make a good point that this isn't over yet.
SCHLEIFER: No.
COLLINS: Because any executive order Trump signs, delaying this, which is what he's considering doing, would face legal challenges as well. And he's also facing challenge from people, who are normally his biggest allies on Capitol Hill.
Tom Cotton, who is familiar to viewers of the show, a very staunch ally of Donald Trump's, he was pushing back against Ed Markey, when they were trying to pass a delay to this, and to prolong this. And he was saying, No, we passed this, because we have real national security concerns about this ban. It's not just because we don't like it or it's animosity towards China. They have real concerns about what they're doing with the data of this -- of this company.
STEPIEN: I think this is a very unique change, for the Republican Party. For 40 years, Big Tech, Silicon Valley, has been behind the Democrat Party. 97 percent of donations in 2016 went to Hillary Clinton.
So, I'm not surprised that a lot of the Republican Party insiders -- this is an unfamiliar group, unfamiliar terrain, so it will take some time, much in the same way that Trump has run the party with other groups, for us to get used to the fact that Silicon Valley is supporting us now.
COLLINS: Yes, it does now (ph) look different now, just in terms of who we're seeing, not only braving the 20-degree weather that we're going to have, here on Monday, to go and sit at this. With Mark Zuckerberg. Elon Musk, obviously, is not a surprise. But Jeff Bezos as well. Now, Shou Chew is going to be there.
And not only coming. They're bringing their money. I mean, they have donated so much money that people who are planning the inauguration don't really know what to do with all of the money that they have raised for this.
SCHLEIFER: Yes, I mean -- I mean, some people have donated to the inaugural fund, even though they're not getting tickets to the inaugural.
COLLINS: Because they ran out of tickets.
SCHLEIFER: Because they ran out of tickets, right.
I mean, there's clearly this kind of uneasy alliance that's developed around Trump, right now, really over the last couple of months, where, yes, we know that Elon Musk is welcome because he's donated so much. But I've done some reporting that there's all these kind of other people, around Elon, who are at the table, and not everyone in Trump world is thrilled they're there.
Like, Elon obviously has donated $250 million, he gets a seat at the table. But there are friends of Musk, who are suddenly, sitting alongside senior Trump officials, sitting in on interviews for who should be the next Deputy Secretary of Defense, for instance.
And if you're -- if you're a Trump official, who worked hard in the freezing cold in Iowa, or New Hampshire, you're suddenly sitting there, saying, Who's this guy, who's this Silicon Valley guy who got in?
And that's just sort of what happens when you build a coalition. You win. People want to show up and be a part of the winning team. But for now, the tech people and the Trump people are getting along fine. But it makes you wonder, like, Who's calling the shots in three months?
COLLINS: Yes. And also, how does Trump view this to -- I mean, with Mark Zuckerberg, he threatened to put him in jail, not that long ago. He's obviously feuded with Jeff Bezos, who said, he should be sent out to space, and not in a flattering way.
What does that look like when there are -- you know Trump, and you worked for him, inside the White House, and led his campaign. What does that look like? Does he buy that? Does he believe it? Or is it kind of an uneasy alliance, as he noted?
STEPIEN: There are some growing themes, you referenced it. I mean, the team has now grown from a relatively small campaign team to something that's about to be on Monday, much, much bigger and much more difficult to manage.
And we know Trump doesn't mind some internal battles, some internal squabbles, some internal--
COLLINS: He encourages it.
STEPIEN: --vying for attention. So, the White House is messy for any administration. Sometimes it's a little encouraged in this one.
COLLINS: A little? OK.
Bill Stepien. Teddy Schleifer. Great to have you both here. Kara Swisher as well.
And as that transition is working to fill a lot of posts in the new administration, thousands of jobs, the President-elect has put out a blacklist of who he does not want referrals from, and not put these people as your recommendation. One of those includes my next source, his own former National Security Adviser.
And this photo, the new official inaugural portrait of President-elect Donald Trump has gotten some major buzz, because it is strikingly similar to another iconic Trump photo.
[21:15:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Some breaking news, this hour, as the FAA has been forced to divert air travel, after a SpaceX rocket disintegrated in the sky after liftoff. Pilots reported seeing large streaks of colorful debris in the air, near Florida. And in a statement to CNN, the FAA said that normal operations have now resumed.
I want to get to CNN's Space and Defense Correspondent, Kristin Fisher.
And Kristin, as we look at this, I mean, I'm assuming this is not what pilots were expecting to see in the air, this evening. What do we know exactly about what happened here?
KRISTIN FISHER, CNN SPACE & DEFENSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, can you imagine seeing that out your airplane window?
[21:20:00]
So what happened was, this was SpaceX's Starship's seventh flight test. And at first, everything looked great. Starship is composed of two parts. The super-heavy booster on the bottom, and the Starship rocket on top.
The booster is what everybody was watching, this time around, because it's the thing that was going to land back on the launch pad that it lifted off from. And it performed beautifully. They were able to catch it with those giant chopstick mechanical arms.
But then, about four minutes after that happened, the Starship, the top part of the rocket, experienced some kind of anomaly. You started seeing some of the engines going out. And then, there was, most likely, as you can see from those pieces of debris, scattering, as it reentered the Earth's atmosphere, some kind of explosion.
Elon Musk, the founder of SpaceX, he said it was some kind of oxygen/fuel leak. But it's something that SpaceX is going to investigate.
And now, almost certainly, Kaitlan, the FAA is going to have to launch its own mishap investigation.
COLLINS: Yes, and we'll see what they determine here.
Kristin Fisher, thank you for that update on this breaking news this hour.
Back here in Washington, Donald Trump has long-touted his ability to hire the best people. And as his Cabinet picks have been around, laying out his administration's vision, while they've been testifying on Capitol Hill, the President-elect is also making clear who he does not want in his incoming administration.
He blacklisted a 11 people, saying that he will not be hiring anyone who has worked for several of those, who worked for him, the last time he was in office. That includes, and I'm quoting the President-elect now, "Birdbrain" Nikki Haley, "General(?) Mark Milley" and, quote, "Dumb as a Rock" John Bolton.
That's Trump's former National Security Adviser, and he joins me now.
Ambassador Bolton, I'm quoting him. That was his words.
When you went to work for Trump, and I remember when you were coming in to interview, walking down the driveway of the White House, did you ever think that you would end up on a list like that one?
JOHN BOLTON, FORMER TRUMP NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE U.N.: Well, I didn't think it would turn out that way, for sure. But that -- this is classic Trump behavior.
You'd think for somebody who's about to become the most powerful man in the world for the second time, four days in advance, would have something better to do than lay out complaints about people, who worked for him last time. But that is Donald Trump.
COLLINS: OK. But if you're Pam Bondi or Mike Waltz, or any of these people who are about to go work for him, and in good standing with him now, as you were when you went in, I mean, what does that say to them about where their tenures could end up?
BOLTON: Well, as somebody said to me, who was an aspirant for a Cabinet-level job in this term, but who didn't make it, when I said, Well, what are you going to do now? Their response was, Well, I'm going to wait for the second wave. As you know, tenure and Trump administrations tend to be very brief, so the second wave could come on fairly quickly. But it's going to be an interesting test for a lot of these nominees.
At this point in a transition, everything seems possible. I've been through a lot of transitions, going in and going out. This is the happiest moment, the President and his team are ever going to have, because at noon, on Monday, the rubber meets the road, and you have to start governing. So, they should enjoy it while they can, laugh at the President's jokes on Truth Social, but get ready for what's going to happen in just a few days.
COLLINS: Because you think that's inevitable for these people?
BOLTON: Yes, look, it's -- the Trump White House was really a Hobbesian struggle of all against all, and there's no reason to think he has changed, or that his style of governance will change.
COLLINS: Yes, he argues it's the staffing. We'll see what that looks like.
I want to ask you about the other nominees up on the Hill.
But just to what Kara Swisher was saying there, on this TikTok ban that's supposed to go into effect, here on Sunday. We'll see how the Supreme Court decides. She said, the Chinese government is basically laughing at the United States, seeing how this is playing out, and all these Republicans and Democrats who voted for it now, just doing a total 180.
How do you see it?
BOLTON: Look, TikTok is an arm of the Chinese intelligence community.
And the arguments you hear from many people, Well, TikTok is so popular, how can we ban it? The Chinese have to be -- that's exactly why they're laughing at us, that an espionage gimmick has proven so popular that now the United States is afraid to take defensive action against it.
This has nothing to do with freedom of speech. It has nothing to do with the First Amendment. This is an intelligence gathering operation by an enemy of the United States. Banning it, requiring a change of ownership, may not be enough.
COLLINS: Pam Bondi, who is Trump's pick to be attorney general, and seems like she's on a path to confirmation, she was asked by senators about how she's going to handle this. She said she didn't want to weigh in on pending litigation.
But someone pointed out that his incoming Solicitor General argued, to join against this ban, to the Supreme Court.
But she was up on the Hill, and she was asked about, speaking of lists of names, a list of names that appear in the appendix of Kash Patel's book. He's the FBI director pick. He's pretty controversial, even among Republicans.
She was asked about that. And listen to what Pam Bondi had to say.
[21:25:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. SHELDON WHITEHOUSE (D-RI): Would you have hired someone into the Florida Attorney General's office who you knew had an enemies list?
PAM BONDI, PRESIDENTIAL-ELECT TRUMP'S PICK FOR ATTORNEY GENERAL: Senator, to cut to the chase, you're clearly talking about Kash Patel. I don't believe he has an enemies list. He made a quote on T.V., which I have not heard.
When -- when you do.
WHITEHOUSE: And I'm questioning you, right now, about whether you will enforce an enemies list that he announced publicly on television.
BONDI: Oh, Senator, I'm sorry. There will never be an enemies list within the Department of Justice.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Some people highlighted that last part of that statement, Within the Department of Justice. How did you hear that?
BOLTON: Well, I don't think you need an enemies list. You can keep names in your head, one at a time. I thought Pam Bondi was very good at ducking the question. I thought the Democrats were pretty pathetic at not being able to press her harder on it.
We don't know whether Trump is going to try to carry out a retribution campaign. But I don't think her answers foreclosed it. And it's not just through prosecution or civil litigation of justice. It could be using the Internal Revenue Service to investigate people's tax returns. There are a lot of ways you could go after retribution. And I don't -- I don't think people have really addressed what Trump is up to. And we'll see after the 20th.
COLLINS: Well, part of that is a desire of how he feels that he was treated, given the prosecutions against him.
When he went to Georgia and pleaded not guilty, but had to turn himself in, he had a mugshot taken. Obviously, it was kind of the mugshot that went around the world.
His inaugural portrait was released today. And a lot of people were texting me, talking about just how much they look alike.
I mean, you can see, that's Trump's portrait there, and JD Vance's. I think we also have a side by side, of Trump's picture there, we can pull up, his mugshot, in Georgia, and were saying, you know, he very -- and I remember, he practiced that expression, when he was going to Atlanta to turn himself in.
What's your view, when you -- when you look at that?
BOLTON: Well, I'm not a shrink. I don't really do shrink sort of stuff. But you got to wonder, if a person deliberately takes that pose, what's going on?
I think it's the Trump brand thing, and it's Trump, the personality, over Trump, the President of America. It's more about Trump than it is about the country. I think that's a problem.
COLLINS: Have you ever seen an inaugural portrait like that?
BOLTON: Certainly not. And I don't ever expect to see one again like that.
COLLINS: Ambassador John Bolton, thank you so much.
BOLTON: Glad to be with you.
COLLINS: No nicknames included here.
BOLTON: Yes.
COLLINS: We have breaking news this hour, as the Israeli prime minister, we are hearing from him now. He's been very quiet. He's announcing a Gaza ceasefire and hostage deal has been reached. There were last minute complications.
We have an inside source tonight, who played a key role, in the U.S. side of these negotiations. He'll join me here, in studio, next.
[21:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Breaking tonight, as Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu now says, Israeli officials have reached a deal to return hostages after last minute complications.
My inside source tonight played a key role for the Biden administration in getting the deal to the point. U.S. Envoy, Amos Hochstein.
And it's great to have you here.
When you look at this. And there was a point today where it was unclear if this deal was going to fully stay on. Were you ever worried about that? Or did it seem clear to you that it was -- it was holding?
AMOS HOCHSTEIN, SENIOR ADVISER TO THE PRESIDENT FOR ENERGY AND INVESTMENT: No. I think we were pretty confident, as the President said yesterday, I think we were pretty confident. The deal was done. It was agreed to by the parties. And there's always some last minute things that happen, the politics on one side or another have to be worked out. But pretty confident.
It was a -- it was a was a hard-fought. This was a very difficult deal to reach. And our team did a great job. And now, we're off to -- have to see the hostages come home, in a couple of days, and then there's a very large task of the implementation and getting to phase two. So, there's a lot of work still to be done. But this is a huge milestone.
COLLINS: Well, and when you say politics there. I mean, it's Prime Minister Netanyahu's government. And he's got far-right members who have always been a difficulty, when negotiating any of these deals, I mean, in the last ceasefire, they were, who are threatening to pull out of the -- their party, out of the coalition government. I mean, is his government going to collapse? What does that look like?
HOCHSTEIN: Look, I'm not going to analyze Israeli politics. I have a hard enough time in my own country.
But I think Prime Minister Netanyahu has proven to be a very good politician. He's been in office for a very long time because of that. So, I trust that he reached this deal, knowing that there was going to be some turbulence, politically, in Israel.
But I think the overwhelming majority of Israelis want to see these hostages home -- come home. I mean, they're in -- they've been in captivity, in tunnels, for 15 months.
COLLINS: 15 months.
HOCHSTEIN: I mean, how could you be against this deal? How could you be -- how can anyone be against a deal that brings these people home?
COLLINS: Are there any concerns that the air strikes that we've seen Israel continue to conduct inside Gaza could hamper this?
HOCHSTEIN: Look, I think when you reach this kind of a deal, and we saw this in the Lebanon deal as well, you have day that you reach the agreement, and then you have the day that where it takes effect. And both sides try to maximize their positioning before that.
So no, I think that everybody knows that there will be maximum -- that maximizing until the moment, and then the expectation is that all parties will live up to it.
COLLINS: Well, Israel had had some concerns about whether or not it would be effective in Lebanon. And obviously, you have been playing a key part in that side of the negotiation, and what that looks like.
Do you think that will hold? Or is there a concern that that could be a complicating factor? And not just getting to Sunday, where some of the hostages are coming home, but implementing and holding this deal up entirely.
[21:35:00]
HOCHSTEIN: Look, we sometimes treat these as two different conflicts, but they're really one. The reaching the ceasefire agreement in Lebanon with Hezbollah and Israel, that has been holding, was the critical element of difference between the summer, when President Biden put this deal on the table, and why we were able to get this deal now.
Because when on November 27, when Hamas woke up in the morning, they realized they no longer had allies, that Iran sold them out, and they cut that deal. And that brought them to the table.
So, I think the deal holding in Lebanon is actually very important for being able to hold in Gaza. They are -- they are linked. It is not without its risks and complications on the Lebanon front as well. And I think we learned a lot of lessons, and we're still learning, on how to manage it. But we're now, what, almost 50 days -- 50 days into the ceasefire in Lebanon, and it is holding.
COLLINS: Well, and you're four days away from the Biden administration leaving, and there's that very quick swap that happens on Monday as he's being sworn in, and they're at the Capitol.
President Trump was talk -- President-elect Trump was, today, was talking about who gets credit for this? And I don't think, surprisingly, he has argued he gets the credit for this.
Listen to what he said during this radio interview.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: If we weren't involved in this deal, the deal would have never happened. No deal would have happened, and the hostages would never have probably seen life again, but they certainly wouldn't have been released for a long time.
It was so ungracious of Biden to say, oh, he did it. He didn't do anything. If I didn't do this, if we didn't get involved, the hostages would never be out. They would have never come out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: As someone, who was inside the Biden administration, working on this deal, how would you answer that question, of who deserves credit for this?
HOCHSTEIN: Look, first, I would try to stay -- I would just personally stay away from the credit. The only thing that was -- that President Biden wanted to achieve, until the last minute, was to be able to get the hostages home, and to stop the carnage in this crisis that has killed so many Israelis and Palestinians. And that's the most important thing.
But Brett McGurk, our chief negotiator, has been there for the last 12 days. I thought that it was great that Steve Witkoff, the incoming envoy, went. And the idea that, I think it's unprecedented that an outgoing president inviting the incoming team to be briefed, and to play a role, and to support the effort. And I think there's an argument to be made that Steve Witkoff coming is what really helped do this.
But this kind of a deal reaches its point of success, when a lot of different factors are there. President Biden put this deal together, presented it. It wasn't the right time, in the summer, for a variety of reasons. Once we got to the fall, Hamas was rejecting the deal. The deal in Lebanon then came about, pressured Hamas back to the table.
I think it was important to have the incoming team with Steve Witkoff there, to be able to show everyone that it's Team America. It's one team. And ultimately, the most important thing is that these hostages are going to come home, on Sunday, or latest Monday morning.
COLLINS: Well, and we heard from a hostage family, last night, the Neutras, who you know. And they were saying, that was their call is, Please work together in this transition period. Don't wait President- elect Trump, until January, when you're going to take office, to start trying to cobble a deal together, as obviously didn't happen.
If this phase one is successful, and we do see hostages come home on Sunday, which everyone is hoping we do. Do you think Israel will relaunch its war in Gaza? Because, I mean, as Blinken conceded today, Hamas has had the time to replenish its ranks here.
HOCHSTEIN: Yes, look, it's possible. The most important thing is to get to phase one, to get the hostages coming. I do believe that the momentum, if everybody implements the agreement, the momentum will be there to keep it going on both sides, including Israel, same on Lebanon.
If we -- if we get through the first two, three, four weeks of this agreement, and the ceasefire in the north with Lebanon is holding, and the ceasefire in Gaza is holding, and hostages are coming home, people are -- and residents, Israeli residents are moving back to their homes, in northern Israel and in southern Israel, I think the momentum then is therefore to continue.
And not only to continue the ceasefire, but then that opens up that aperture of what's the other opportunity, which is a normalization deal with Saudi Arabia, expanding other things, throughout the region.
COLLINS: And that's all going to be in the hands of the Trump administration. I mean, as someone who's worked so closely on this, and I think for -- to be clear, your title does not really indicate that this is necessarily your portfolio, but it very much has been.
What does this feel like for you, handing this over, at such a critical time, to an entirely new team?
HOCHSTEIN: Look, all I care about, at the end of the day, is we've -- the Middle East that we're leaving behind, that President Biden is leaving behind, is one, which we wouldn't have said this just a few months ago, but where Iran is significantly weaker than they have been ever since Saddam Hussein has fallen.
[21:40:00]
Assad is gone. Hezbollah is degraded. The other -- so many of the other proxies are degraded. Hamas is defeated. Israel is the -- is the largest and most capable military in the region, that would be conceded by their friends and foes alike. Nobody's questioning the U.S. presence in the region, and our strength there.
COLLINS: Yes.
HOCHSTEIN: And this gives enormous opportunity.
Look, I wish that -- obviously that President Biden had more time to work on this. But overarching will and wish is that the Trump administration, they will take that, and be able to turn that into a normalization deal between Saudi Arabia and Israel.
COLLINS: Yes.
HOCHSTEIN: Look, we can have our political differences. But that would be a game-changer in the region, it would be a game-changer for Israel, for Middle East, and for the United States for our national security interests.
COLLINS: Yes. Mr. Hochstein, great to have you. Thank you.
HOCHSTEIN: Thank you.
COLLINS: She once ripped up a copy of his State of the Union address. But now, former Speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi, is a new snub for President-elect Trump. This all is coming, as the indicted Mayor of New York, Eric Adams, a Democrat, of course, is headed to Mar-a-Lago, to meet with him tomorrow.
[21:45:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: You can add another big name, tonight, to the list of Democrats who are skipping President-elect Trump's inauguration on Monday. Our sources say that the former House Speaker, Nancy Pelosi, will not be in attendance.
I should note the House Democratic Leader, right now, Hakeem Jeffries, will be there, at his -- a traditional luncheon that they go to before, and then he'll also be at all the ceremonial events after.
I have my political sources here at the table tonight.
Karen Finney is a former senior adviser to Hillary Clinton's 2016 campaign.
Scott Jennings, former senior adviser to Mitch McConnell.
Karen, you will not be at the inauguration. Neither will Nancy Pelosi. SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER TO MITCH MCCONNELL: Why?
COLLINS: But what do you make of Pelosi--
JENNINGS: Is this not a joyful moment for you?
KAREN FINNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I'm going to warm weather. I'll be -- I'll be real clear.
COLLINS: Well, I'll be really jealous of that when I'm standing in the--
FINNEY: I will send you all the pictures from the beach.
COLLINS: --24 degrees. Yes.
FINNEY: Yes.
COLLINS: Please don't. I'm just going to have to block you, if you do that.
But really, on Pelosi not going.
FINNEY: Yes.
COLLINS: She was there in 2017.
FINNEY: 2017, yes.
COLLINS: I had to think about the years for a minute.
What do you make of her decision to not go?
FINNEY: I think we can't be too precious about this. I mean, considering Donald Trump didn't go four years ago, after an insurrection where he tried to overturn the election, and -- I know, you're rolling your eyes. But it actually did happen.
JENNINGS: Yes.
FINNEY: And I mean, I don't know, I feel like the norms have been kind of busted.
And I think what's more important, Hakeem Jeffries will be there. And every Democrat has been very clear, Trump won the election, they support the peaceful transfer of power. They're doing their jobs to make sure that that happens.
So yes, I don't think in this era we should be so precious about that.
JENNINGS: You know what I think?
COLLINS: Scott?
JENNINGS: We're -- we-- COLLINS: Are you being precious about this?
JENNINGS: No, I think people should -- should go where they want to go, and do what they want to do. I don't really care all that much.
I will say this. Following this election, this is the first election in my adult, professional career, that both parties seem to have accepted the outcome of the election. There doesn't seem to be any dispute, thankfully, this time, about who won and the clear result.
I think we're off the slippery slope. That's my view. I hope these little -- these little slides don't alter that. But I feel like we are about to go into a couple of years. I'm just going to try to will it into existence of political peace.
FINNEY: Huh.
JENNINGS: We haven't had peace in a long time.
FINNEY: I don't think so (ph).
JENNINGS: And I think that's what the American people said, when they voted for this unified Republican element.
COLLINS: OK. Can we not -- I'm not taking the bait on that.
FINNEY: Yes.
COLLINS: Because I'm not getting into a comparison--
JENNINGS: Bait?
FINNEY: Yes.
JENNINGS: --with Trump's giving it. I'm not taking it.
FINNEY: Yes.
COLLINS: Because I want to talk about Eric Adams, and what we've also seen in this period of Democrats, and how a surprising response to Trump.
Because I think in the last time, when after Trump won in 2017 -- or in 2016, in this period, we heard from Democrats gearing up to fight Trump, to have this resistance, how they were going to handle that on Capitol Hill.
FINNEY: Yes.
COLLINS: What that was going to look like.
We're looking at a very different, demoralized Democratic Party, this time around. But there are some who are -- who are trying to at least meet with Trump. John Fetterman went down there and met with him.
FINNEY: Yes. COLLINS: Senator from Pennsylvania.
Eric Adams, the Mayor of New York, is going down there tomorrow. Of course, I should note, his indictment is a factor looming over all of this.
FINNEY: Yes, just--
COLLINS: What do you make of that?
FINNEY: Just that little piece right there.
COLLINS: It's that indictment.
FINNEY: He just might be looking for a pardon.
Look, I think it's -- what part of what's different is, in 2017, people didn't know what to expect. Remember, people were like, Oh, there be this pivot. He's going to pivot and be presidential.
And this time, people have a clear sense of -- he's been very clear about what he wants to do. He's got the team in place. I think people have a lot of confidence in Susie Wiles' ability to deliver on that. We can see from the people that he's selected, he's quite -- even though, in our own polls, some people don't necessarily think he's going to do some of the things that he's said he's going to do. But so, I think people are just having, it's a different moment, like.
And -- but the other piece on this, I mean, with Eric Adams, I do think he's looking for a pardon. And he's got a different, you know, he's certainly trying to stake out some different ground in the Democratic Party, you know? And I don't think he's going to be running for reelection as mayor, so he doesn't really care if he upsets Democrats.
JENNINGS: Couple things.
One, I think the hysteria has subsided, thank God, over Trump.
Number two, it makes a lot of sense to me why Eric Adams, the leader of a large city, would want to have a relationship with the President, because New York City is one of the most impacted cities by the illegal immigration crisis.
Number three, people respond to leadership, and we haven't had any for the last four years.
FINNEY: Oh, Scott.
JENNINGS: So you now have a strong president coming in. No wonder these -- they've been desperate for some leadership. Now they're going to get some, and they're meeting with the President to find out what they can do together.
FINNEY: Can I just say one other quick thing? I wouldn't say people are demoralizing, that there's no resistance. I think it's going to -- just because people are kind of in a resting mode does not mean that it's not going to--
JENNINGS: Resting?
FINNEY: That's how where I'm at.
COLLINS: You think it will change?
JENNINGS: When do you start? September?
[21:50:00]
FINNEY: No, look, I think people are feeling like -- look, there are plenty of people gearing up, ready to fight the fight. Look at the attorneys general. Look at governors. There are plenty of people, and they're -- who are prepared to fight the fights.
But they recognize that part of the Trump strategy is very intentionally to exhaust you, right? If all of the like, the tweets and the things, the shiny objects that he throws out. And people are also sort of recognizing, Let's not get distracted by the noise. Let's focus on the narrative. So.
COLLINS: We'll see what that looks like.
FINNEY: Yes.
COLLINS: Karen Finney. Scott Jennings. Great to have you both here.
Meanwhile, Rudy Giuliani, speaking of former Mayors of New York City, gets to keep his homes and his World Series rings, after all. There was a crazy resolution to that legal saga that we have followed so closely here, after he defamed the two women that you see here.
We'll tell you how and what questions we still have about that tonight.
[21:55:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Rudy Giuliani's trial to decide ownership of his Florida condo and World Series rings has been canceled, amid major questions, tonight, about how Trump's former attorney is footing the bill to get out of it.
The disgraced former Mayor of New York City settled with the two Georgia election workers that he defamed, marking a surprising end to the years-long legal saga, especially because for two hours this morning, Giuliani was a no-show in court, where he was supposed to be the first witness on the stand.
Instead, Giuliani was posting a video of a puppy, wearing a tie, at President-elect Trump's Mar-a-Lago Club, as you can see here.
Moments later came the big announcement. A $150 million defamation judgment was settled. He agreed to compensate Ruby Freeman and Shaye Moss, and to never speak ill of them again, and that they would end their fight to collect that Florida condo, and those World Series rings.
My sources tonight. CNN's Katelyn Polantz, and Elliot Williams.
Elliot. Rudy Giuliani had said--
ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes.
COLLINS: --repeatedly in court--
WILLIAMS: Yes.
COLLINS: --he had no money left. He had exhausted everything.
So, he had this property, two properties, he had some World Series rings, that they were trying to get ahold of.
WILLIAMS: Oh, well, the 27-time World Champion New York Yankees World Series rings. We just--
COLLINS: OK. OK.
WILLIAMS: To correct that on the record. Yes.
COLLINS: So they're valuable.
WILLIAMS: Yes, oho, yes.
COLLINS: OK. But -- immediately, when we saw this, how? That was the question, how?
WILLIAMS: And that is the great mystery.
It is not a surprise that he has no money left, because he has been involved in a lot of extremely expensive litigation, for years, at this point. And look, lawyers cost a lot of money. I don't say that as a joke. Litigation costs a lot of money. Where exactly did the money come from?
Now, the specific terms of the settlement have not been released or announced, at least the dollar amounts. And so, it's hard to know exactly how much he came up with here.
But this is quite perplexing, given that he did say on the record in court, My money is exhausted.
COLLINS: I mean, Trump had posted, SAVE RUDY, as you astutely pointed out, earlier, on, Truth Social, the other day.
I mean, I should note, Rudy Giuliani went down to Mar-a-Lago, to try to get Trump to save Rudy, when he needed money for legal fees, not that long ago, a year ago, I believe.
Katelyn, what's your take of it, as you've been following this so closely. KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I mean, I think the most interesting thing that is -- there must be money somewhere going to Ruby Freeman and Shaye Moss, is if you look at that New York apartment.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
POLANTZ: It was worth $6.5 million. He had it listed for sale for months. It wasn't selling. They got possession of it. All they didn't have was the keys and the final documents. But they got the court orders. They had walked through it. They had looked at it. It was theirs. They could have taken it. They could have sold it in the coming weeks, months, year.
And he gets to keep that. It's not just that the things he was still fighting over in court at trial, he was trying to keep on a condo in Florida where he says he's living, as well as those World Series rings.
COLLINS: So, he gets to keep everything?
POLANTZ: That's what he says, and that is what the announcements after the settlement said, both from him, and from Ruby Freeman and Shaye Moss, they say, all of his personal belongings, he gets to retain his property. But Shaye Moss, Ruby Freeman, their statement also adds it is in exchange for compensation. We just don't know how much that is, where it came from.
COLLINS: And his attorneys were outside court, and they were asked, How did this happen? Did someone front this and pay this?
Listen to what they had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Did anybody step up to assist Mr. Giuliani in paying the settlement?
JOSEPH CAMMARATA, ESQ., RUDY GIULIANI'S ATTORNEY: I'm not going to answer that question. It's irrelevant. Thank you.
REPORTER: Why not?
CAMMARATA, ESQ.: Because it's a material term of the agreement, and we're not going to discuss material terms.
(CROSSTALK)
CAMMARATA, ESQ.: I think that's an improper question, sir.
REPORTER: Does the judge need to agree to this?
CAMMARATA, ESQ.: Excuse me?
REPORTER: Does the judge need to-- CAMMARATA, ESQ.: No, I'm sorry. I don't get to decide what's an improper question, but I do get to decide what questions my client and I answer.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: So part of this, though, this agreement that he was talking about there.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
COLLINS: Clearly, not revealing who paid for this, as part of that, he said.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
COLLINS: That's what his attorney claimed. Is not speaking ill of them, not defaming them.
I mean, Katelyn and I reported on this, over the summer, in Milwaukee, when I saw Rudy Giuliani at the convention, the Republican Convention. He was still criticizing them, and talking about them, and speaking negatively about them--
WILLIAMS: Right, because--
COLLINS: --and defaming them.
WILLIAMS: Yes, because of the fact that not defaming them is a term of the settlement agreement. If he violates that, he can actually get in trouble, and they can reopen the agreement, and hit him with more money or whatever. It's like violating a restraining order or something like that.
POLANTZ: But just on Friday, a different judge made him look at the record, and acknowledge, and say, he understood, under oath, that there wasn't fraud in the 2020 election.
[22:00:00]
COLLINS: Which is, of course, how all of this--
POLANTZ: Quite a sea change for him.
COLLINS: --started.
POLANTZ: Yes.
COLLINS: Katelyn Polantz. Elliot Williams. Great to have you both.
WILLIAMS: Thanks.
COLLINS: We'll continue to follow this story, of course, to see if we can find out who did pay for that.
Thank you for joining us tonight. "CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" is up next.
