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The Source with Kaitlan Collins

Oath Keepers Founder Convicted Of "Seditious Conspiracy" Returns To Capitol Hill After Being Freed By Trump; New Fast-Moving Wildfire Erupts Near Los Angeles; Trump Meets With House GOP Moderates At White House. Aired 9-10p ET

Aired January 22, 2025 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[21:00:00]

VERONICA MIRACLE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And so, we heard from the fire chief earlier at the press conference, they're going to try and take advantage of all of this, this evening, while also letting these firefighters, who've been working so hard, all day today, get some rest.

So, they're going to be kind of juggling all of that to make sure that this doesn't extend too far into tomorrow, and that of course these flames do not move into Castaic, the city proper, where so many residences are and structures are currently threatened.

Anderson.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: Yes. More than 4,000 firefighters responding to this. Extraordinary.

Veronica Miracle, thank you. We'll continue to follow this throughout the night.

The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts right now. I'll see you, tomorrow.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Straight from THE SOURCE, tonight.

A leader of the January 6th attack set free by President Trump returns to the scene of the crime, as federal judges who locked up convicted rioters are issuing a blistering takedown of Trump's pardons.

Also, who is in charge here? Elon Musk undercutting that big announcement that Trump touted on his first day in office. Trump called it tremendous and monumental. Musk says, It's not going to happen.

And a major new fire is exploding, right now, in Southern California. Mandatory evacuations are underway this hour. We'll have the latest on the biggest threat that is now facing L.A., since the fires that burned neighborhoods to the ground.

I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE. We start with the breaking news this hour, as we are watching a brand- new massive wildfire, as you can see here, erupting in the already- fire-ravaged Los Angeles County. This one is occurring in the foothills and the mountains of northern L.A. County.

It's being called the Hughes fire. It has grown to more than 9,000 acres in just hours, prompting 30,000 more evacuation orders, and a number that we are told is likely to climb tonight. That's according to officials on the ground.

And as you can see, the scenes here are just astounding. We're going to get a live update on the ground, this hour, as to how those fire rescue efforts are going, and what the containment efforts look like this evening, as we continue to monitor this.

Here in Washington, our other big story tonight, as we are following one of the most notorious far-right leaders of the January 6 riot, a figure the prosecutors say, called for a bloody revolution to keep President Trump in power, and then acted on it, returned to the scene of the crime, the U.S. Capitol.

Yes, Oath Keepers founder, Stewart Rhodes, was sentenced to 18 years behind bars. You see him here. He was convicted, among many other things, of seditious conspiracy against his own country.

Instead, he is walking the hall of the nation's capital, after President Trump ordered his release from prison, as he is deflecting his role in that attack.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEWART RHODES, OATH KEEPERS FOUNDER: What did I do on January 6 that caused the harm? Did I touch any officer? Show me the video of me punching anybody. I didn't touch anyone. I sat outside, exercised -- I exercised my right to free speech.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: He wasn't accused of touching an officer or even going into the Capitol that day. But what he was doing on the grounds was rallying his troops and directing the attack from his phone.

Rhodes actually met with a small group of lawmakers today, at the Capitol, to advocate for other January 6 prisoners that he says are still in the process of being released, and haven't gotten out yet.

Lawmakers meeting with one of this country's most notorious law breakers. And it may not end there. More members of the Republican Party say essentially, they're available to also meet.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MANU RAJU, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Why do you want to meet with them?

REP. RALPH NORMAN (R-SC): I'd like to hear their side of the story. RAJU: Even if the one -- even if they were convicted of attacking police officers?

NORMAN: I'd like to hear their side of the story.

REP. LAUREN BOEBERT (R-CO): I would certainly be willing to give them a guided tour. There's no plan right now.

RAJU: What do you say to the critics, who say, you're bringing back the people who were part of the crime here?

BOEBERT: Well, I mean, the Capitol Police officers are -- who took down barricades and gates and opened doors are here, and they've been here ever since.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: That's not true. Those officers testified. They said they were overwhelmed by the amount of rioters who were coming in the doors. You can see the images for yourself.

As to whether or not Rhodes is going to be meeting with the President, he said this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you have any plans to talk to him or go to the White House?

RHODES: No, no current plans. Of course, if I was invited I'd go. I'd love to shake his hand.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: No plans. He said he has to fly back to California tomorrow. But there's a question of whether or not that meeting will ultimately happen.

Tonight, CNN has learned from sources that administration officials have had talks about inviting some of those who were convicted and then pardoned for January 6 crimes to the White House. Now, it remains to be seen if the President ultimately does.

But it is quite clear tonight that the federal judges who sentenced these rioters are not being anywhere near as generous. Instead, we are hearing dismay, frustration, outright anger, after Trump pardoned virtually every rioter.

Judge Tanya Chutkan, who was presiding over Trump's January 6 case, says that his reprieves, quote, "Cannot whitewash the blood, feces and terror that the mob left in its wake."

[21:05:00]

Judge Beryl Howell, who was the chief judge, during most of these trials, refuted Trump's own words and his pardons. He claimed that a national injustice had happened. She says no. No national injustice occurred, and no, quote, 'Process of national reconciliation' can begin when, quote, "Poor losers, whose preferred candidate loses an election, are glorified for disrupting a constitutionally mandated proceeding in Congress."

My lead source tonight is a former U.S. district judge, and one of the smartest legal minds that we call on in these moments. Judge Shira Scheindlin.

And judge, it's great to have you.

Because seeing these judges, I mean, it seems like they are almost seething, when you read these words. Do you agree with the judges that we're hearing from tonight?

SHIRA SCHEINDLIN, RETIRED U.S. DISTRICT COURT JUDGE: Totally. They are seething. They're angry. They should be. They sat through trials. They worked hard on those trials. These people had a chance to tell their stories. As one of your interviewee just said, Tell their story, I want to hear their story. How ridiculous? They had the chance to do it. They had a trial before a jury, and the jury convicted them.

So, this is all nonsense. These people are not hostages. They're not heroes, they're not political prisoners. They are criminals. They attacked people. They assaulted people. They committed property damage. They committed so many crimes, of course, the seditious conspiracy that you mentioned, and they were convicted and sentenced.

So, I understand there's a pardon power. But this was overly broad. All these people, I thought he was going to separate the violent and the non-violent. That's what JD Vance told us would happen. It didn't happen. He just pardoned all of them because he can.

COLLINS: Yes, what does it tell you that that he did? I mean, he pardoned virtually everyone, not just those who've been convicted, people who still had ongoing cases, people who had pleaded guilty and said, Yes, I did do that.

SCHEINDLIN: Yes.

COLLINS: They all -- they all were.

SCHEINDLIN: Yes.

COLLINS: Can I actually -- what do you make of what Trump keeps saying, which is, They don't deserve to be in jail for this long.

I just think of Patrick McCaughey, who used Officer Daniel Hodges' own shield against him. He was sentenced to seven and a half years. He had served less than three years of that. I mean, do you think that that's enough time served for someone like that?

SCHEINDLIN: I don't. And I think the sentences that the judges gave are the right sentences. Those judges worked hard on those sentences. I know what it's like. You read the pre-sentence report. You get letters. You hear from both lawyers. You think hard about a sentence. It just doesn't happen with no work.

So, when these judges made these decisions, they were thoughtful. They were right. I don't think they were too long at all. And I think people should have served them. I thought these pardons are overly broad.

COLLINS: The judge who presided over Stewart Rhodes' case said, The notion that he could be absolved, the judge said, was, Frightening and ought to be frightening to anyone who cares about democracy in this country.

There's a lot of people, though, who say, I'm glad Stewart Rhodes is out of prison. I mean, as a former judge, what do you -- what do you say to them?

SCHEINDLIN: Look, everybody's going to have their own opinions, and that can't be stopped. There are going to be people, who are saying, Good, I'm glad they're pardoned. I can't help that.

But I know my own view. I know the views of probably every judge, no matter who appointed that judge, a Republican president, Democratic president, it doesn't matter. The process worked. The trials were fair. As you said, many of those people pled guilty. There's really no excuse for this.

COLLINS: Judge Shira Scheindlin, thank you for your expertise, as always.

SCHEINDLIN: Thank you.

COLLINS: I'm also joined tonight by someone who was at the Capitol, on January 6th. The images of him cleaning up the mess that had been left by those rioters in the Rotunda remain one of the most indelible of that day.

New Jersey senator, Andy Kim, is here with me now.

What do you hear when these federal judges are coming out and saying -- I mean, these are the judges who oversaw most of this, know all of the details here. What do you hear on that?

SEN. ANDY KIM (D-NJ): Well, look, what we see right now -- actually, I feel like I have a lot more clarity on what President Trump is trying to do, just over the last two days.

I have to say, I feel like these executive orders he's doing, these pardons, that's his inauguration speech, not what we heard in the Rotunda. He's sharing with us, what he plans to do.

And the words that stick with me right now, it's not Golden age, it's not Make America Great Again. He used a phrase during the campaign, The enemy from within. And I really feel like those three words are what's going on through my mind, as I see these actions. He is so caught up in this sense of control.

It's one of these things where, like with all his bluster and all his powers, what I start to see, right now, in the first 48 hours, is a deeply paranoid man, somebody who is really trying to consolidate power, having loyalty tests to be able to have staffers in the National Security Council.

[21:10:00]

Putting for -- you know, you're talking about these fires right now that are damaging, putting people at risk. And the President is putting someone in charge of FEMA that doesn't have any experience, doesn't have experience on disaster assistance and disaster response. But he's--

COLLINS: The interim leader that he's putting in?

KIM: Yes. But he's loyal to Trump for the -- to fight the enemy within. And I just find that to be so alarming.

COLLINS: What would you say to people, who say, This is vindication for Trump?

KIM: Well, no, I mean, I don't think it's a vindication. I think he -- you see, again, it's that sense of paranoia, that sense that he needs to consolidate his power in that type of way. And I'll be honest with you, as someone who worked in national security, in counterterrorism, I worry about this, because I feel like he's focused entirely inward.

And he's moving resources from the Department of Justice, Joint Terrorism Task Force, towards issues of immigration. Well I worry, we're going to take the eye off the ball on critical national security challenges, terrorism, just when we saw these attacks, that attack, down in New Orleans. We have a Super Bowl coming up. Like, we had these fires.

Like, focus on what is going to keep the American people safe, not about consolidating your power. So, I just I worry about the path that we're on for the next four years.

COLLINS: But what is it like for you, to see Stewart Rhodes having coffee on Capitol Hill today, and walking around and meeting with Republicans in the House?

KIM: Well, this is something that makes us even less safe than we were January 6th, or the day after, because they're coming out with a sense of purpose.

They're coming out of the jail and prison, with a sense that they can do whatever they want, for the next four years, that anything that they do, this idea of allowing political violence, at a time when we should be scared to death, about this rise of political violence in our nation. And now, they are told, If you do that, and if you do it on behalf of Donald Trump, you will be OK. And I worry about where that's going to go.

COLLINS: Yes, they don't seem to have a lot of remorse.

KIM: Not at all, no, not at all. In fact, they feel vindicated in that kind of way.

COLLINS: Can I just remind people what Stewart Rhodes said? He was literally recorded saying, quote, I'd hang -- and he didn't leap it out -- I'd hang effing Pelosi from the lamp post. He claimed, tonight, to reporters on Capitol Hill, that he was drunk when he said that, and he regretted it.

But that is, who said that, the person who was on Capitol Hill meeting with Republicans, and being offered meetings by other Republicans.

KIM: Yes, and you're having some of my colleagues in Congress meeting with him. It legitimizes. It legitimizes these people. It legitimizes their beliefs. And we see where that trajectory leads us to.

So, yes, I mean, I think we've opened up this Pandora's box of politics, and this sense of fighting that enemy from within. And I believe that they're going to try everything possible to be able to win this war that they think is being fought. But we should not be, as a nation, looking at Americans as the enemy. I think that is so dangerous.

We are losing touch with this idea that we're part of something bigger than all of us, that there's something intrinsic in being American. We're about to celebrate our 250th birthday, our anniversary of our nation. But we're going into it with this sense that we are not all on the same page, that we're not all American.

COLLINS: What do you say to people, though, who -- you know, it's been two days. We've seen the reaction from you and other Democrats. Who say, Trump said on the campaign trail, he was going to do this, that he was going to pardon these people, that he was going to make these changes at the DOJ, and he won the election.

KIM: Well, look, what we see is he tried to position himself as a disrupter. And clearly, the American people want to see a change. They want to see something move away from the status quo. I get that. I think our politics are broken as well. What we need to show is that there's a different way to be a disrupter, a different way to be able to engage. This is not the right path.

And, as I said, if they focus in internally, and just try to pin Americans as the enemy, it's actually going to leave us very vulnerable, when it comes to national security, the threats from abroad, at a time of just tremendous global challenges, or the fires that we're seeing, other things like that. And I think that that's something the American people absolutely did not want to see happen.

COLLINS: One of the confirmation hearings that's been going on -- there are some Trump nominees you have voted for to get out of the committee that you're on, the whole Senate then would vote on them.

One that you questioned, that maybe has not gotten a lot of attention, is Russ Vought. He is Trump's pick to run the Office of Management and Budget, a very powerful office.

You questioned him in a pretty remarkable moment. I just want people, who may have missed that, to see that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KIM: What are the agencies that you don't think should exist?

[21:15:00]

RUSSELL VOUGHT, OMB DIRECTOR NOMINEE: I didn't make an announcement on behalf of the incoming administration that there would be. So, I'm not here to do that, or to elaborate on any plans to that effect.

KIM: You've said in the past, quote, It's very hard to square the Fed's independence with the Constitution. Can you elaborate on that, so I can understand your thinking?

VOUGHT: I'm not here as a think-tank president, sir. I'm here as a nominee to be OMB director. The President hasn't spoken on that matter. I'm here on his behalf and for his agenda.

KIM: Do you believe that the President has the authority to set interest rates?

VOUGHT: Sir, I'm not going to speak to the matter.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: And you had questioned him on a comment he made previously, saying about career government employees, When they wake up in the morning, we want them to not want to go to work, because they are increasingly viewed as the villains.

KIM: Exactly in line with what I was saying about that sense of enemy from within.

I asked him, Are you asking people who they voted for? When you're trying to hire somebody at the White House or elsewhere, you're asking them who they voted for, what political party they're part of?

And now we're seeing that that is exactly what's happening.

COLLINS: And he said, no.

KIM: He said, no. We know that.

COLLINS: But we do know that's happening.

KIM: We have seen--

COLLINS: Well actually, we know that from reporting that that's happening.

KIM: We know that -- we know that is happening.

And I worked as a career public servant, and that's what I found, what he said so offensive. I worked under both Bush and Obama. I served the nation, not a president. I served the country. And I think that what we see here is that sense that they're trying to sow this doubt, trying to make the American people believe that there is that conspiracy, trying to have the American people be as paranoid as Donald Trump is.

And it just, again, it's causing so much sense of loss of our capabilities to take on big challenges. And what it is, it's weaponizing, politicizing our national security, when I believe that the last place that partisan politics belongs is in the Situation Room.

COLLINS: And you're not voting for him, right? You're voting against him.

KIM: No, absolutely not.

COLLINS: Senator Andy Kim, thank you for coming on THE SOURCE tonight. Hope to have you back.

KIM: Thank you.

COLLINS: Up next. This is something you've got to see. Elon Musk putting a big question mark on a big announcement by President Trump, undercutting the President, very publicly, on one of his big announcements after taking office.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: It speaks to the tension we could see from two people, who very often speak their mind, but have become very close allies over the last several months, and now are both going to be spending a lot of time inside the West Wing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[21:20:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: Tonight, Elon Musk is pouring cold water on the first big announcement and investment of President Trump's second term, claiming that the cash behind the $500 billion artificial intelligence program that Trump touted yesterday, isn't there.

Musk tweeted out late last night, quote, "They don't actually have the money," despite what we heard from President Trump, as he gathered some of the biggest names in AI, at the White House, as you see them here in the Roosevelt Room, unveiling the infrastructure project that has been deemed Stargate.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: This monumental undertaking is a resounding declaration of confidence in America's potential under a new president.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: My political sources here at the table. Lulu Garcia-Navarro and Scott Jennings.

And it's great to have you both.

Scott?

SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER TO MITCH MCCONNELL: Yes.

COLLINS: This -- I mean, Trump was very excited about this, and was touting this, and had these, the SoftBank CEO, the Oracle CEO, and the OpenAI CEO, all standing there with him.

What does it say that Elon Musk is coming out and saying, It's not real?

JENNINGS: Yes, well, the President engenders a dynamic environment with lots of people, with lots of opinions.

And I don't know that he's ever had an adviser like Elon Musk. I mean, let's be honest, he's a different kind of guy. And Elon is a personality, and he's used to giving his opinions and statements on things. I'm not sure that's a bad thing, actually. I think the overall impact of Elon Musk on the Trump orbit has been really good, and his impact on the country is really good.

So, I don't know how this is going to turn out. I know these kinds of announcements are important to presidents, these kinds of investments are important to new administrations.

But I would listen to Elon. I mean, he's obviously got some information and some opinions about this. And I don't know how much of this is going to be aired in front of and behind-the-scenes.

LULU GARCIA-NAVARRO, CO-HOST, THE NEW YORK TIMES' "INTERVIEW": But Elon--

JENNINGS: But we'll see.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: But Elon Musk keeps on overshadowing Donald Trump.

JENNINGS: No.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: I mean, you had in the inauguration, then it was the hand gesture, quote-unquote, that is the subject of great mystery and debate.

JENNINGS: What hand gesture?

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Yes, the subject of great mystery and debate.

JENNINGS: Are you talking about -- you're not one of these salute truthers, are you?

GARCIA-NAVARRO: No. What I'm -- oh, is that what we're calling it now?

JENNINGS: Yes.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: All I'm is--

JENNINGS: Come on.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: No, but what I'm saying is--

COLLINS: Salute truther?

GARCIA-NAVARRO: --it engendered a great -- a great debate. It took away from of a night that was supposed to be about the President. And instead, what everyone talks about is Elon Musk. I mean, it does come to a certain point, where he is putting himself and talking about things that I'm sure President Trump doesn't want him taking the spotlight away from.

COLLINS: But on this, what Elon Musk is saying. And there is important context. Sam Altman and Elon Musk are basically at legal warfare with one another. They don't like each other because of -- Elon Musk doesn't like what they turned OpenAI, to -- a not-profit to a company that makes money. On the background of that, though, is this is Trump's announcement, and Elon Musk is undermining--

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Inserting himself.

COLLINS: Not just inserting himself.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Yes.

COLLINS: He's undermining it.

And the press secretary at the White House, Karoline Leavitt, was asked about this today, in one of her first appearances as press secretary. Here's what she had to say about what Musk said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: So the American people should take President Trump and those CEOs' words for it. These investments are coming to our great country, and American jobs are coming along with them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JENNINGS: Well, I will say this. If you go to an announcement with the President, and you make these promises, and you have this big fanfare, it's in your best interest to deliver. And so--

[21:25:00]

COLLINS: Foxconn would like a word, which was the company, the Taiwanese company that said, in Trump's first term, they were going to build an electronics factory in Wisconsin that made all these -- had all these jobs, and it never materialized anywhere near to what they announced.

JENNINGS: Yes, it happens sometimes.

And so, as a just a PR matter, my advice, if you showed up with the President, and you say you're going to do something, you should do it. I mean, it's a huge number. I mean, $500 billion is a huge number. So, I hope it's true. I mean, it would be good for the country if it were true.

But again, I think, Elon obviously has some information in this space, and I don't -- you know, ultimately--

GARCIA-NAVARRO: But this is the double-edged sword of Elon Musk, right? Because, on the one hand, Trump has benefited from X and Twitter, and him using his very big megaphone to sort of tout Donald Trump. And he really, gave him a lot of money for this election. But there is the other side of this.

COLLINS: All the money--

GARCIA-NAVARRO: There's the other side of this, which is like he's got this big megaphone, and he can use it in any way that he wants.

JENNINGS: Yes.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: And he happened to use it in a way that undermined President Trump.

COLLINS: Well, and my question is what is it--

JENNINGS: It's unusual -- oh, sorry.

COLLINS: Can I ask you, what does it mean in the sense of also, Elon Musk has office space on the White House campus.

JENNINGS: Yes.

COLLINS: He was in Oval Office yesterday.

He's posting old Sam Altman tweets tonight, where he was criticizing and saying he was happy Trump was no longer in office. Sam Altman is saying that he learned his lesson, and he's paid attention to Trump, and now he likes him more. I mean, this is someone who's got not just a thumb on the scale. It's a rocket on the scale.

JENNINGS: Yes. Well, first of all, the fact that he has office space in the complex ought to tell you something about Trump's view of his importance. Number one.

Number two, it is unusual for a White House adviser to have this kind of a platform, this kind of megaphone. And so, I assume it's going to lead to some interesting moments.

But overall, I don't think you can deny -- the overall impact of Musk on Trump world and the Trump orbit has been basically a positive every single day, both from the campaign perspective, and from his influence on various policy issues. I think it's by far a net positive, even if you have moments like this that cause an eyebrow raise on a given day.

COLLINS: Can I ask you.

Susie Wiles, the Chief of Staff at the White House, who likes to run a tight ship for the staff on down. She said just a few weeks ago, My team and I will not tolerate backbiting, second-guessing inappropriately, or drama, because they're counterproductive to the mission.

This is what some people, who are maybe more skeptical of Elon Musk's presence have wondered. I mean, he is -- you know, he's not just a normal another staffer at the White House.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: When I read that, I thought, Oh, Susie Wiles, maybe you should join a different administration. I mean, this is a famously, an administration that has a lot of competitiveness, there's a lot of back-biting. And we're already seeing fissures.

I mean, if you see Elon Musk and the technocrats, and then you see Steve Bannon, and what Steve Bannon has said about Elon Musk. I mean, he has vowed to take him down. Just today, he was talking about the -- you know, Elon Musk, and what he had said on Twitter to undermine the President. I mean, this is a real fault line between MAGA.

JENNINGS: Here's the thing. The coalition is huge. The coalition that came together to elect Trump, going all the way from Musk to Bannon, it's a big dynamic coalition. It's going to be natural for some headbutting.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Is that the word, dynamic?

COLLINS: I know. I know.

(CROSSTALK)

GARCIA-NAVARRO: I like it. We'll keep addressing dynamic.

COLLINS: Euphemism for something--

JENNINGS: It's a dynamic environment.

COLLINS: Well and--

JENNINGS: And by the way, Susie did a great job of managing all this during the campaign. I have no reason to believe she can't manage it during the White House--

COLLINS: It is rich coming from Steve Bannon, who contributed to a lot of the dynamics in the first administration, should we say.

Lulu Garcia-Navarro. Scott Jennings. Great to have you both here.

Meanwhile, tonight, we're going back to that breaking news I mentioned at the top of the hour, that new wildfire that has erupted in Los Angeles County. It is spreading rapidly, and firefighters are trying to deal with it. Thousands of more people are under evacuation orders. We'll have a live report here, on the ground.

[21:30:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: We have breaking news from Southern California tonight, as you are looking at live pictures from a new wildfire that is surging through northern Los Angeles County.

Powerful winds are fueling what is being called the Hughes fire, burning through an area the size of a football field every two to three seconds. Yes, you heard that right. A size of a football field every two to three seconds.

That means tens of thousands of people are under mandatory evacuation orders, this moment, as firefighters are launching an all-out attack from the ground and the air. Right now, though, it is 0 percent contained.

I want to get straight to CNN's Veronica Miracle, who is at the scene tonight.

And Veronica, obviously, we're seeing this after just seeing those other fires, and now this is the biggest, a new one that has popped up. What's the latest that you're hearing from officials on trying to contain it tonight?

MIRACLE: Kaitlan, they are working incredibly quickly. They have been for hours.

And the only good news about those massive fires that were in the area, the Palisades and the Eaton is that they had an incredible amount of resources here standing by, not only to help with the cleanup, but making sure that everything was OK, because these wind events that have been coming through.

And because there were so many, they were able to just really throw a ton of resources on this fire. About 4,000 firefighters are now working, around the clock, to try and make sure that this does not get into a residential area.

This evening, though, we have been seeing the flames. They just look so ominous against the dark sky. Here, we're going to zoom in and show you some of those. And this, right now, is burning in an area that is really just full of brush, and it's away from residences, which is great. They have been able to stop it.

[21:35:00]

I don't know if you can hear. You certainly can't see it. But you can hear, there are helicopters making water drops, because these areas are hard for firefighters to access by foot. So, that's what's happening right now. But the temperatures are dropping, and the wind has definitely slowed down, so that is helping them overnight.

COLLINS: OK, so the wind is slowing down. We know how much that affects being able to fight these fires from the air.

What about the evacuation efforts? Because that was obviously -- you know, people were just on edge constantly for weeks, as this was starting. What does that look like tonight, for this fire?

MIRACLE: Well, right now, 31,000 people are under mandatory evacuation orders, and another 20 -- 20,000 are at the ready with warnings that they need to pack up and be ready to leave, just in case. So, there are certainly a lot of people on edge.

And this wind event actually is going to be -- that they've extended it through Friday morning. So, they are warning people, we heard at the press conference, to make sure that you're ready, Do not let your guard down.

And it's the weather that's really driving these fires that blowing them out of control. So that's something that officials will be watching, and certainly residents will be as well.

COLLINS: I mean, it must be hard for people to even go to sleep at night, knowing that these fires are out there, and wondering, Am I going to hear my phone if it goes off? Am I going to know that I need to get out of the way?

MIRACLE: Right. Or is the power going to go out? Because that happens sometimes. And is my phone going to die and then am I not going to get the alert? That is definitely a major concern.

They shut off power in some areas, because actually, on the other side of here, there were some power poles that burned and fell and snapped in half, and there were some power lines down. So they had to shut off electricity in some areas. So definitely a major concern.

COLLINS: Veronica Miracle, on the ground in Los Angeles County, please stay safe as you are covering this tonight. And keep us updated. We'll check back in, of course, as the news warrants there.

My next source tonight was at the White House today. He was one of three House Republicans, who were there, meeting with President Trump. All three of them represent districts that the former Vice President Kamala Harris won in November. We saw two of them, moments before that meeting happened.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How do you feel being here with President Trump in power now?

REP. DON BACON (R-NE): Well I haven't -- I haven't been in the White House, in the West Wing -- West Wing, in four years. So, it's good to be back.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Will you come out and talk to us after the meeting?

BACON: It depends what the President -- I don't want to -- keep our conversations private, unless he does, it's all right.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[21:40:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: At the White House, this afternoon, there was one meeting that we were all watching closely, as President Trump was sitting down with the three House Republicans who won their races, in districts that he lost and that voted for Kamala Harris in November.

Mike Lawler, Don Bacon and Brian Fitzpatrick, all represent districts from across the country, and they represent a key voice in a Republican majority with a very slim margin.

Congressman Lawler is my source tonight.

You were at the White House today. How did your meeting with President Trump go?

REP. MIKE LAWLER (R-NY): It was great. It was very positive. The President was in great spirits, obviously, being back in the Oval Office. This was my first time visiting the West Wing and the Oval Office, so.

COLLINS: What did you guys talk about?

LAWLER: We covered a broad array of topics, including what's important to our districts, and obviously what's important to the country and his agenda. And so, I think, obviously, our three districts are vital to the success of our majority. These are three districts that Kamala Harris won.

In the previous Congress, there were 18 Biden districts. That's how much these districts have moved towards Donald Trump. Even my district. Joe Biden won the district by 10 points, four years ago. Kamala Harris won it by less than half a point.

COLLINS: Does Trump see how crucial the three of your votes are, though, in terms of -- I mean, if he didn't have three of you, Republicans would not have the House Majority, right now, frankly.

LAWLER: I think the fact that we were there on day two suggests that he does.

COLLINS: Did he invite you? Or did you guys--

LAWLER: We had reached out a while back about getting together, because it's important for us to be working together. The reality is, with a tight majority, the Republican conference needs to work as one.

Obviously, President got elected with a sweeping mandate on the economy, on the border, on national security issues, on energy policy. And we want to work, collaboratively, to get legislation passed.

Obviously, there's key issues, like in my district, SALT, that matters. And I've been very clear on this.

COLLINS: Which he put a cap on with his 2017 tax bill.

LAWLER: Under the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act, there's a $10,000--

COLLINS: And you'd like for it to be higher.

LAWLER: --cap that was put in place.

President has been very clear. He said it during the campaign. He reaffirmed that just over 10 days ago, down at Mar-a-Lago, and again today, about the need to lift the cap on SALT.

COLLINS: But he asked for a number. Did you give him one?

LAWLER: We're working through it with the Ways and Means Committee, and we'll be back to him in--

COLLINS: But you don't want to offer a neighborhood of what you're looking at?

LAWLER: I've put -- I've put a bill in for a $100,000 for individuals, $200,000 for married couples. You look at a district--

COLLINS: It's at $10,000, right now, just for people who don't know.

LAWLER: Right. The state and local tax deduction, this is your property taxes, your state income taxes. State like New York, we have high taxes because of reckless spending by Kathy Hochul and New York Democrats. They've increased the state budget by over $100 billion in just one decade. So, we have a lot of work to do.

This is an issue that matters to my district, and the President understands that, and he's been very clear he wants to lift the cap on SALT, so that's something we're going to negotiate as part of this reconciliation bill.

[21:45:00]

COLLINS: Did the pardons come up?

LAWLER: No.

COLLINS: You didn't bring them up, or he didn't bring them up?

LAWLER: No.

COLLINS: How did you feel to see Stewart Rhodes, on the Hill, today, meeting with your colleagues? Do you think that's a good use of their time?

LAWLER: No. Look, I've been very clear. I thought what happened on January 6th was wrong. I think acts of violence of any kind, people should be held accountable. Whether it was on January 6th, whether it was seizing control of a Portland courthouse, or burning down a police station in Minneapolis, I believe people should be held accountable for their conduct.

Ultimately though, Donald Trump is president. And as Joe Biden proved, the President has absolute pardon authority. Donald Trump campaigned on this. He said he was going to do it, and obviously he did. Joe Biden, on the other hand, conversely, said he was not going to pardon his family, and said he would not engage in preemptive pardons. And in fact, in his very last act, did.

And I would also point out, with respect to law enforcement, I've been very clear, anyone that engages in assault or the murder of a police officer should be held accountable. Joe Biden pardoned two people that were involved in the death of law enforcement officers. Andrew Cuomo--

COLLINS: So, you're criticizing--

LAWLER: --Andrew Cuomo, on his way out the door, granted clemency to David Gilbert, the father of Chesa Boudin. Many of the Democrats praised that decision. So, I don't want to--

COLLINS: But can I -- just to be clear, can I--

LAWLER: Yes.

COLLINS: Just to talk about who's in power right now.

LAWLER: Yes.

COLLINS: You're saying it was wrong for Trump to pardon the people who beat up cops?

LAWLER: Yes, I was right there.

COLLINS: And then it was also--

LAWLER: I don't agree with that decision.

COLLINS: And you're also saying it was wrong for Biden to pardon the activist who was convicted of killing two FBI agents.

LAWLER: Correct.

COLLINS: Mike Johnson was basically asked this today. And I want you to listen. Did you hear what he said?

LAWLER: I did not.

COLLINS: I want you to listen to what he -- his view of those two questions.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): The President has the pardon and commutation authority. The President's made his decision. I don't second-guess those.

It was shocking what President Biden did on the way out, pardoning his family for more than a decade of whatever activity, any non-violent offenses. They call it the Biden crime family. If they weren't the crime family, why do they need pardons, right?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Do you believe that's consistent?

LAWLER: Look, I think what he's making clear, obviously, is that the President has absolute pardon authority, which both Presidents exercised here. Every Democrat--

COLLINS: Yes, but he criticized Biden, but not Trump--

LAWLER: Let me -- let me -- let me--

COLLINS: --is my point.

LAWLER: Well, I understand your point. But let me -- let me point something out to you.

Every Democrat, at the end of President Trump's first term, was criticizing the thought that President Trump might pardon his family, or might engage in preemptive pardons. Joe Biden himself criticized that. The issue there is somewhat unique in that it really hasn't happened.

And just two weeks ago, Joe Biden was asked, Will you pardon yourself? And he said, No, I haven't done anything wrong. Why would I pardon myself? So, you're looking at a situation where he not only pardoned his whole family, but he did it preemptively, which raises serious concerns.

And when he pardoned his son, he did it over an 11-year time period, which covered the period, in which he was getting foreign money, while Joe Biden was Vice President and out of office.

Ultimately, to me, I disagree with the decision to pardon those, who have committed violent acts. But I'm not the President of the United States.

COLLINS: So -- right. I think we can agree. Unprecedented to pardon your brothers and your sister and their spouses. Also unprecedented to pardon 1,500 people who attacked the Capitol and beat up cops.

Congressman Mike Lawler, thank you for being here.

LAWLER: Thanks.

COLLINS: Up next. We are digging in on the other side of Capitol Hill, the Senate. There's a new allegation against Trump's Defense secretary nominee, Pete Hegseth.

My next source is a White House insider, with her latest reporting.

[21:50:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: So breaking news this hour, as Hill sources are telling CNN tonight that Pete Hegseth's ex-wife has given a new, previously unreported statement to the FBI about the Defense Secretary nominee's drinking.

This is Samantha Hegseth. She was Pete Hegseth's second wife. And she reportedly told the FBI, quote, "He drinks more often than he doesn't." That's according to a source familiar with a new statement that she provided to them.

And of course, that statement comes on top of the past allegations of sexual assault, which he's denied, and alcohol abuse, which he has denied, which were a big point of contention during Pete Hegseth's confirmation hearing. I was there and watched him get questioned about it at length.

Now, he's denied the allegations. He's repeatedly called them, quote, Anonymous smears.

And just moments ago, we learned the Senate set a key procedural vote for his confirmation, tomorrow afternoon.

My White House insider tonight is Politico's White House Bureau Chief, Dasha Burns.

And it's great to have you. Welcome to being on CNN.

DASHA BURNS, WHITE HOUSE BUREAU CHIEF, POLITICO: So good to be here.

COLLINS: This is a statement that came out. He's already advanced out of committee.

BURNS: Yes.

COLLINS: We've seen how the lines have been drawn. The question is whether or not this matters to the senators, who may not have decided yet.

[21:55:00]

BURNS: Look, I think what we saw with Gaetz, and sort of the backing down, is the last we are going to see of that. In fact, there are a lot of people on the inside in Trump-world that think they shouldn't need to even back down on that.

And everything that I've been hearing from my sources, in Hegseth and Trump world, is that they're still feeling really confident here, particularly because of that statement from his ex-wife, saying that there was no abuse, right? And because--

COLLINS: After his sister-in-law came out with a statement out.

BURNS: That's -- that's right. After the sort of most -- second, most recent allegations coming out. And they feel like they have what they need in the Senate, especially because they've got people like Collins potentially, on their side. They don't see anyone really breaking rank here.

And what my source in Hegseth world told me is they're taking the cues from Republican senators, who are all sending the message that they feel like this is a foolish last-minute attempt, by the Democrats, to smear him. They're not going to break rank.

COLLINS: Even though it's, I mean, it's his ex-wife who came forward.

I think the question is, why this statement came later, that it wasn't part of that initial FBI background check, that only the Chairman and the Ranking Member, I should note, get to see. The other people on the committee don't get to see it. The other senators don't get to look at this. That's the protocol that they have.

And so, the question was, you know, everyone was watching these Republicans. But the Republican -- because the Democrats don't matter, essentially.

BURNS: Yes, yes.

COLLINS: If Republicans stay united, they can get anyone confirmed.

BURNS: I think the point here is that there is the fact and the evidence and what people want to make of it. And then there's a politics of it. And then there's the Trump of it.

And all of that, right now, they're not willing to get in trouble with the boss, right now, especially when he feels like he has the wind at his back. He's signing all of these executive orders. And at the moment, the feeling is, Maybe protest in public a little bit, but do what Trump wants behind-the-scenes.

COLLINS: What's happening in terms of behind-the-scenes with the other nominees? How are they feeling about the ones who -- you know? Everyone's been watching Tulsi Gabbard and Kash Patel, keeping a close eye on whether or not that's where these Republicans would be willing to break with them on?

BURNS: What I'm hearing is Gabbard is by far going to be the most uphill climb. That's the one, folks are worried about. They're doing a lot of work, right now, on the Hill. They're strategizing in the Oval Office, right now, about how to get her through.

RFK, Kash Patel, also concerns. But they've done the whole flood-the- zone strategy, which we're so familiar with, from the first administration, from all of his campaigns. Gabbard is the only one that might just be a little too much to swallow, for some of those folks, but they're doing a lot of work on it right now.

COLLINS: We were just talking, a few moments ago, about this split happening with Elon Musk, and pouring cold water in this huge announcement that Trump made yesterday, saying it's not all it's cracked up to be, which is a pretty remarkable thing to do, after the President touted this.

Steve Bannon is someone who has been kind of beating the drum on Elon Musk.

BURNS: Very publicly, yes.

COLLINS: Saying, he wasn't going to have a seat at the table.

He very much -- I mean, he has a White House office on the grounds.

BURNS: Yes.

COLLINS: What is he saying about this latest turn?

BURNS: Well, I think there's still a lot of questions about how much access Musk ultimately has, and how long that lasts, given Trump's propensity. He loves mega wealthy men, but he also loves the spotlight to himself, and Elon can tussle with that.

Yes, I spent about 15 minutes on the phone with Bannon today. The entire time, he was railing against Musk's action, saying it's like action I've never seen in my entire life. Someone who has a mandate for a specific topic, DOGE, of course, the Department of Government Efficiency, somebody going and undermining Trump on another topic. He feels like he's brought personal vendettas into the White House.

And he called on the Chief of Staff, who's Susie Wiles, of course, to sit him down and take care of it.

COLLINS: He wants Susie Wiles to sit Elon Musk down?

BURNS: He says it's not a job for the president or for VP JD Vance. Susie needs to sit him down and give him a talking to.

COLLINS: We'll see if that happens.

Speaking of JD Vance, he had his first moment in the Oval Office today.

BURNS: Yes.

COLLINS: I don't know if you saw this. House Speaker, Mike Johnson, posted a video where he wanted to record JD Vance going into the Oval Office for the first time.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Come on in.

JD VANCE (R), U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: After you.

TRUMP: This is Margo (ph).

VANCE: Oh. Hey, Margo (ph).

MARGO (ph): Good to see you. VANCE: Good to see you too.

Wow.

JOHNSON: This is JD Vance's first time to step into the Oval Office.

VANCE: Wow.

JOHNSON: It's incredible.

VANCE: This is incredible.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: I mean, the Oval Office is incredible.

BURNS: Yes.

There are a couple striking things about this. I mean, to see someone like Vance, whatever you think about his ideology and policies, son of Appalachia, you've read the book, or seen the movie, or heard him talk about it, step foot into the Oval Office, really big deal.

The other thing that struck me here is the fact that Mike Johnson is there, behind-the-scenes, filming the video. And I feel like we've seen so many scenes of Mike Johnson just kind of like popping up, in random things, like the awkward guy in the photo.

[22:00:00]

And what I've been hearing from Trump world is that Mike Johnson, right now, Speaker, is in kind of MAGA rehab. Trump likes him. Trump trusts him. And there's nobody else that really can or wants to do this job, from Trump's view. So, he wants to get the base on board with Johnson. And so, he's kind of trying to bring him into the fold as much as he can.

COLLINS: Yes, it also speaks to just how quickly JD Vance's political career has happened. I mean, he was new to the Senate in 2022. Now, of course, he's the Vice President of the United States.

BURNS: Dasha Burns, great to have you, and your reporting. Thank you for that tonight.

Thank you all so much for joining us.

"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" is up next.