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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
GOP Senators Murkowski, Collins Say They'll Vote Against Hegseth; Trump Revokes Security For Former Secretary Of State Mike Pompeo; Trump: "Open" To Meeting With Pardoned Jan. 6 Rioters. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired January 23, 2025 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: --wow, it's just incredible.
Natasha Chen, thank you.
That's it. We actually have some pictures. Wanted to show you the San Diego fire that we talked about. This is closer to the border. Not, at this point, a huge fire, but obviously of concern. This is along the California border. At least 228 acres destroyed. Last night, we saw that fire grow very fast, further up closer to L.A.
That's it for us. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Straight from THE SOURCE tonight.
Two Republican senators a no, on Trump's pick to lead the Pentagon, as CNN is learning Pete Hegseth privately told Congress how much he paid the woman, accusing him of sexual assault.
Also, my new reporting from the White House, as President Trump terminates Mike Pompeo's security detail. Both Pompeo and John Bolton now facing threats from Iran without government protection. John Bolton will join me live.
And President Trump said tonight, he gave J6 rioters their lives back. But my source says she fears for hers, after he released her ex- husband from prison.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
Pete Hegseth's nomination to lead the Pentagon, at one point, seemed to be teetering on the brink of collapse. But tonight, after a very intense pressure campaign, on Senate Republicans, President Trump is on the cusp of having one of his most controversial nominees confirmed.
Hegseth cleared a key hurdle in the Senate today, advancing to a final vote that we could see happening as soon as 24 hours from now. But not without some last-minute Republican defections today. Senators Susan Collins and Lisa Murkowski both voted no, on Hegseth's nomination, with Murkowski, who you see here on the right, saying she cannot vote for him, in good conscience.
The Senator added, quote, "While the allegations of sexual assault and excessive drinking do nothing to quiet my concerns, the past behaviors Mr. Hegseth has admitted to, including infidelity on multiple occasions, demonstrate a lack of judgment that is unbecoming of someone who would lead our armed forces."
Trump, for his part, seemed unconcerned with their opposition, when he was asked in the Oval Office today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Mr. President, Senators Collins and Murkowski have now said they will vote against Pete Hegseth. Are you worried about his confirmation? And your reaction?
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: No. And no surprises there. It's too bad, you know, it's the way -- the way it is. Too bad.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now, this all comes, as we are learning the dollar amount, this evening, that Pete Hegseth paid the woman who accused him of sexual assault in 2017, as part of a non-disclosure agreement. According to documents, he provided to the Hill, Hegseth paid the woman $50,000.
Now, he has denied the allegation. He was never charged in the 2017 incident, which his attorney has pointed to, including on this show. And Hegseth had said that that NDA, which they don't even call an NDA, was to prevent his accuser from trying to tarnish his career.
My first source, tonight, has played many key roles in the Democratic Party. Former Congressman, former Chief of Staff to the Obama White House, two-term Chicago mayor, and recently returned Ambassador to Japan, Rahm Emanuel.
And it's great to have you, Mr. Ambassador.
Because we're hearing tonight that Trump's team is confident this is a done deal. That yes, Lisa Murkowski and Susan Collins came out today. But they still think, even if it comes down to the wire, he is going to get across the finish line, potentially tomorrow night.
What do you make of how this confirmation process has played out for him?
RAHM EMANUEL, FORMER OBAMA WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF, FORMER AMBASSADOR TO JAPAN UNDER PRES. BIDEN: Look, I mean, I think the remaining senators, mainly in the Republican caucus, have to ask a fundamental question. When you're in the Situation Room with the President, or in the Oval Office at a late night, situations that I've been in, both as Chief of Staff and as Senior Adviser, do you want and trust the judgment of an individual to give the President advice, that puts individuals, lives at risk in the armed forces, and the national security of the United States, who has shown not only behavior, but judgment, as said by the Senator Murkowski, that does not reflect a person that is steady in their advice.
Now, look, one thing I don't agree with Donald Trump a lot, but we know he has never has had a drink, because of the problems in his family. That is not -- and I admire that. That is not the type of person, you want sitting in the Situation Room, two chairs down from where the President sits.
When you have a fundamental decision, boots on the ground? Bombing? No? Is there pieces -- other civilians life to be lost? Those are choices you make all the time, and you have to counsel and advise the President. His judgment, as reflected on these issues and controversies around both personal -- his personal behavior, show you he does not have the judgment.
And he ran a small veterans organization. The Secretary of Defense is going to run the largest government agency we have. That is not the person you put -- A, should have been nominated. But in that case, every senator is going to have to answer to this in their conscience--
COLLINS: Yes.
[21:05:00]
EMANUEL: --and their vote, and they own it.
COLLINS: Are you surprised--
EMANUEL: That's what they have to do when they go to the well.
COLLINS: Are you surprised about how Democrats have handled this confirmation process?
EMANUEL: In what? No, I think they've actually asked the type of questions that need to be asked.
Because, I mean, if I had one caveat, it's having been, based on my experience, in the Situation Room, in the Oval Office, when you have a go-, no-go decision. I sat there with President Obama, early on when we had the pirate situation off of Somalia. Did you take that situation? Did you take that shot? What's the advice? You have to have counsel, and advice. And look, people are on all sides.
I think this -- you cannot have a Secretary of the Defense with this type of background, counseling a president, because he doesn't show the judgment. And a senator, who has people from their own state, who now this person will be responsible for and their safety, giving counsel and advice to the President. This is, it doesn't pass a smell test, and they know it. The other thing that's amazing to me. The Democrats have asked the right questions. It's the Republicans who know it and say it under their breath. They have their own citizens, who have joined the armed forces, whose lives will be asked to be put on the line or not, who will be given judgment on by this individual.
So to me, they got to ask, Is this really -- we're a country of 350 million people. This is the best we have to offer as a Secretary of Defense? That's a fundamental question you're going to have to not just handle in the well of the Senate, you're going to have to handle in the conscience of your own mind.
COLLINS: Yes. I mean, he is essentially, the White House believes going to be confirmed, maybe by this time tomorrow. And obviously, that would cap Trump's week, his first full week--
EMANUEL: But you know what? Kaitlan, can I tell you?
COLLINS: Go ahead.
EMANUEL: You are right that he could, based on what I know, the history, could be confirmed. But that means his service, your vote, is there. You own his service. You own his judgment and his efforts.
I don't think of a guy who's run a small organization -- veterans organization, has earned the stripes to be. When you look at people like William Perry, Leon Panetta, Bill Cohen, other people that have been secretary to us, that is not who you put in this situation. I think it's just crazy. And it doesn't pass a smell test. And the thing that's really upsetting is the senators that are about to vote on it know it. They know it in their conscience.
COLLINS: Yes. And of course, Trump's team argues, all those people you pointed to there, they say, did not do a good enough job. That's their view, obviously. But we'll see what this looks like.
But just as this week is about to cap off. One person in the West Wing who has promised to run a tight ship is Susie Wiles. She's the Chief of Staff for Trump. She ran his campaign. You obviously know what that job looks like, to a degree. Obviously, you were not Chief of Staff to Donald Trump.
EMANUEL: No.
COLLINS: What would you--
EMANUEL: That, we can clear up tonight if there's any confusion.
COLLINS: That is safe to say.
EMANUEL: No, I did not. Yes.
COLLINS: You've had a lot of titles, not that one, yet. Who knows? We have four years.
But what would you -- what would your advice be for her? Because I know, she got advice from a lot of other Chiefs of Staff, including some of Trump's past ones, like Reince Priebus. But I mean, what would your version of that be?
EMANUEL: Yes. When I was coming in as President Obama's Chief of Staff. And he was a friend, when I was in Congress, opposite party, Josh Bolten pulled together all the living Chiefs of Staffs.
It was the first time, and it started tradition, started with Josh Bolten and I, based on our friendship, and I was in the Congress and the Democratic leadership. And went around the table. Dick Cheney had showed up. Donald Russell had showed up. There's a lot of different advice all of us give.
One that I remember was Chief of Staff is the only person in the White House who has two titles, Chief and Staff. And in different parts of the day, in different moments, you're both. You're always in the staff, but you're also chief, first among the all equals, and you -- that role changes.
Second, beyond the discipline that you put not just in the White House, but throughout the government and the cabinet, you have to have peripheral vision. A lot of times, you know, we all in Washington, things come rushing in, and it's what's in front of you.
A Chief of Staff has to have the periphery vision to see around the corner, see what's on the periphery that all of a sudden, if it's not managed right, will be dead center, and it's coming at you at 90 miles an hour. So that's the other role of a Chief Staff.
And then third is, obviously you're going to be the last -- one of the last people in to give the President the unvarnished truth. And when they make decisions or say, I'm going to do this, you ever responsibly lay out, OK, that's not the advice I gave, but here's the best way to handle what you want to do.
COLLINS: Yes.
EMANUEL: And so, there's different roles. They're not a singular thing. Just you're not a manager, you're a political conciliator. You're also a person with peripheral vision. You're a person that understands, and has appreciation for the East Wing, of the pressure that it puts on the West Wing. So there's multiple different layers to this effort.
COLLINS: Yes.
[21:10:00]
EMANUEL: In the end of the day, you have to have the President's confidence. That's the most important realm and coin that you have.
COLLINS: Yes. Safe to say that applies to all West Wings, even this one.
Ambassador Rahm Emanuel, great to have your perspective on. Thank you so much. EMANUEL: Thank you.
COLLINS: I also have my political sources here at the table tonight.
Former Romney adviser, Kevin Madden.
A Democratic strategist -- the Democratic strategist, Paul Begala, I should say.
And National Political Reporter for The New York Times, Astead Herndon.
Kevin, let me start with you, just on this document that I personally saw earlier, where Hegseth acknowledges he paid $50,000 to this woman. Now, he says it was not sexual assault. He says it was consensual encounter. Obviously, they signed this agreement.
But what does it tell you that where -- that this number is coming out, now, in addition to other information, but we've seen largely Republicans be dismissive of it.
KEVIN MADDEN, FORMER ROMNEY CAMPAIGN ADVISER: Well, I think it tells you that his critics remain relentless. They want to continue to raise as many doubts as possible with the potential idea of getting maybe one or two Republican senators to turn. I don't think that's going to happen.
As you mentioned, as part of your reporting, I think the White House is quietly confident that they're going to be able to get an affirmative vote, tomorrow, and that he'll be confirmed.
But, I think to Rahm's point, Ambassador Emanuel's point. That's ultimately where this thing goes, is that if he gets confirmed, like the White House and everybody involved, still owns the performance. He's either going to do a really good job, or he's not, and they're going to have to live with that. And I think that's where we are right now.
I think a lot of senators will tell you. I mean, if we were to go back and look at how did Pete Hegseth reverse his fortunes, this ability to go outside in, and really activate Republican base support for his nomination, in a way that really generated pressure, on a lot of these Republicans, to give the President that the nominee that he wants. I think that will eventually be the thing that turn.
COLLINS: Yes, do we see that for -- I mean, once he is confirmed, the attention will really turn to Kash Patel--
PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Yes.
COLLINS: --who just had his hearing scheduled for next Wednesday, or next Thursday, I believe. Also, Tulsi Gabbard has been a name. Those are really the only other two that Senate Republicans have even quietly said, I have a lot of questions about them.
But is there a pressure campaign? Given, they saw it worked successful here, Paul, like, what does that look like?
BEGALA: I think they're very different people. Gabbard comes out of my party. She used to be a Democrat. And I don't, literally don't know, and I don't think, she has that kind of goodwill--
MADDEN: Yes.
BEGALA: --that Mr. Hegseth developed, with this very stressful job, sitting on a sofa on weekends, and yap it on Fox News. I mean, the guy ran his mouth. Now he's going to run a Pentagon.
COLLINS: He is a veteran, his people would say.
BEGALA: And God bless. And he ran a company of 200 men and women in the National Guard, and I admire that. He ran two veterans services organizations, and by all reports, not well.
And now -- listen to what Rahm said. It's very important for the Democrats. Rahm didn't go at the allegations of sexual abuse, right? He didn't -- he didn't mention it. We have to cover it. I understand that.
But I think that's politically right. Because people don't know -- nobody knows what happened. OK? And it is important that no charges were brought. And that's important for Mr. Hegseth. But it's indescribably true that why, why would you set all that aside, when the guy just didn't run anything bigger than his mouth?
I mean, it's just, it's the most important management job, it's the most important advisory job, as Rahm said. But he's going to have 3 million people working for him. He's going to have nearly a trillion- dollar budget.
He's going to have thousands of nuclear weapons. He's going to have a 11 nuclear-powered aircraft carriers. Nobody else in the world has more than one. And Pete's going to have a 11.
And I will pray for him. But good god, why? Why is he qualified?
COLLINS: Astead, what's your reporting, just on the sense of how this has shaken out.
And also, just kind of what it means, because John Ratcliffe got confirmed today, to lead the CIA, barely was even noted, obviously, because there was no controversy there. Round one in Trump, he had to be pulled when he was nominated to lead the DNI, and then reinstated only later on. It just shows how much everything's changed.
ASTEAD HERNDON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST, NATIONAL POLITICAL REPORTER, THE NEW YORK TIMES: I think a lot has changed. I think the outside endpoint is a really important one.
What has happened with the kind of Trump MAGA ecosystem, over the last couple years, is they've made a real point to say that his last term was stymied by the fact that Democrats and Republicans did not give him the leeway that he deserved. And so, even before he won in November, the Republican base was activated, that a second Trump term would actually -- they would put more pressure, on Republican senators, to be deferential to Donald Trump. And I think we're seeing that, honestly. I think even the fact that we've seen the reversal in fortunes for the Hegseth is, I think, a tell, to that point.
It seems the larger question here with all of these Cabinet nominees is, what is going to be the appetite for congressional Republicans, to push back against Donald Trump. And the answer, I think, frankly, because of the results, and I just think at this point, the answer is not that much, you know? So if something changes, if he ends up being a bad appointee, if some of this other stuff happens, I think we'll see that change.
[21:15:00]
But the big difference, I think, that maybe isn't true for last time to this time, is Donald Trump made stars of some of these people, on the trail. Even the Tulsi Gabbards, honestly.
COLLINS: Yes.
HERNDON: The RFK Juniors. They were on the trail with him. They were part of the package that he was doing, instead of bringing people like Nikki Haley on the trail. And so, I think a lot of that base is prepared to put pressure, on Republican members of Congress, to say, Donald Trump deserves these appointees.
COLLINS: Do you think he gets all of his picks confirmed?
MADDEN: I think that Gabbard--
COLLINS: Based on that?
MADDEN: I think -- I think it's right. And I do think the one--
HERNDON: Gabbard is a little different.
MADDEN: Yes, Gabbard is a little different. She just doesn't have--
COLLINS: She's a wildcard.
HERNDON: Yes, a wildcard.
MADDEN: She is a wildcard. I don't -- just don't think she has the track record or the strong base of support that amongst the sort of MAGA-faithful.
COLLINS: But she's pretty convincing. I mean, we've had her on the show before.
MADDEN: She's--
COLLINS: In terms of sitting down with these senators, answering their questions, and I've heard from her prep that she's been doing behind- the-scenes that it's pretty locked down.
MADDEN: Yes, I think her talent as an advocate for herself is probably underrated, at this point. She's pretty good. And I do -- but I do think she's going to face a lot of resistance, because of the support for Edward Snowden. That's still a sore point, I think, amongst some of the base.
COLLINS: Yes.
BEGALA: And watch Kennedy. His nomination has to go to the HELP Committee, Health, Education, Labor and Pension, which his Uncle Teddy once chaired. The Chairman there now is Bill Cassidy, who's a medical doctor and actually knows more about vaccines, I think, than Mr. Kennedy does.
COLLINS: Yes, and met with RFK Jr., and told me it was a very interesting meeting.
BEGALA: Yes.
COLLINS: We'll see what that hearing looks like. It promises to be interesting as well.
Thank you, everyone.
Up next, we have new reporting. President Trump has now revoked the security detail for his former Secretary of State, and other CIA director, Mike Pompeo, who is getting death threats for carrying out Trump's own policies against Iran. We'll speak to another target of Trump's retribution.
Meantime, tonight, a judge just blocked that executive order that we saw on day one, to end birthright citizenship. What's next in that fight, what the White House is expecting?
[21:20:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: President Trump has pulled the security detail for another former top National Security aide of his. Our sources have confirmed that the former Secretary of State, Mike Pompeo, lost his security detail today, just one day after Trump also stripped his former National Security Adviser, John Bolton, of his, despite ongoing threats against them.
The Iranian government wants both men dead. That has been clear in DOJ charging documents. And the President, who has faced serious threats from Iran of his own, and is aware of theirs, still made this decision to do so.
Speaking today from perhaps the most protected building in the world, Trump offered this explanation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: Well, the same reason. When you have protection, you can't have it for the rest of your life. Do you want to have a large detail of people guarding people for the rest of their lives? I mean, there's risks to everything.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Ambassador John Bolton is my source tonight.
Ambassador, what's it like to hear that explanation? What do you make of that?
JOHN BOLTON, FORMER TRUMP NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE U.N.: Well, it's obviously something made up.
I think I can speak for all the former officials, who have been receiving different kinds of protection. We don't want it for the rest of our lives. We'd be delighted if tomorrow, the intelligence community concluded that the Iranian threat had disappeared, or the regime had disappeared.
The security that President Biden granted me, when he gave a Secret Service protection to me in 2021, was based on a threat assessment that had nothing to do with the duration of the threat, but had been made clear that Iran was determined to avenge the death of Qasem Soleimani. That's why the threat is against President Trump himself. He, after all, ordered the operation. He had to give final approval, which he did correctly, in my view.
So in my case, the Secret Service was renewed about every six months by President Biden, based on a continuing evaluation of the threat, and the conclusion that the threat level remained sufficient to warrant the protection. And I was told as recently as Friday and Saturday, before the inauguration day, that the threat level remained the same.
So if the threat level changed, I'd be delighted if that conclusion came true, and the protection disappeared. Look, it's up to President Trump. It's his decision. It's just the wrong decision, and it's based, I think, on the fact that he knows very well, and doesn't like that I criticize him. And that he's had disagreements with Mike Pompeo. It's just that simple.
COLLINS: So, you've been given no indication that the threats against you have decreased?
BOLTON: That's correct.
And I may say, when President Biden made the decisions, again, and I can't speak for the others, but in my case, on the Secret Service, I can't believe he was delighted with the fact, I routinely criticized almost every national security decision he made, and his advisers felt the same way.
But what they did, and I give them credit for it, and I'm not -- not embarrassed to do so, they put what they thought was the national interest first above politics, that these were former officials, who had been carrying out their official duties, and a foreign power, a hostile terrorist state, was threatening for that, that very reason. It's unacceptable to allow that to happen.
COLLINS: Do you fear more for your life now than you did last Thursday, last Friday?
[21:25:00]
BOLTON: Well, measures are in place. And I hope -- I hope, the answer to that is no. But it depends on continuing events. If the President of the United States, in effect, is inviting terrorist attack, I don't think anybody can predict what the outcome is going to be.
COLLINS: Do you think Trump would share partial responsibility, if something were to happen?
BOLTON: Sure. If he had left the protection in place, he would have done exactly what President Biden did. And you can only try. You can't guarantee anything.
I mean, I think it must be pretty chilling to Marco Rubio that virtually the first thing he had to do, as Secretary of State, is remove the protection of Diplomatic Security, which now guards Marco Rubio, from one of his predecessors. What does that say to people in government, about what can happen, when a -- when a subsequent president, who dislikes criticism comes into office?
COLLINS: Have you heard from anyone who worked with you in round one, or any Republican lawmakers now, who say, This is outrageous, and I disagree with this decision. Have you heard that privately from anybody?
BOLTON: I've heard it from a lot of people. And, I think, it's a reflection of Trump's character or lack thereof. It's just very straightforward.
COLLINS: Have you heard it from anyone who's working for Trump right now?
BOLTON: The answer to that is yes. You'll understand why I wouldn't -- I wouldn't give you -- give you their names.
COLLINS: Wow. So you have heard from -- and yes, I get that. But you have heard from someone, who is currently working for Trump that says they disagree with his decision, to yank your security and Pompeo's security?
BOLTON: Somebody who is -- who works on his political operations, yes.
COLLINS: Wow. Ambassador John Bolton, I really appreciate you joining us. I know it's tough to talk about this publicly, because it is such a sensitive issue. But thank you. Thank you for joining us tonight.
BOLTON: No, look, I think it's important. I think the people have to understand the threat that Iran poses, and understand what Donald Trump does about it.
COLLINS: Ambassador John Bolton, thank you.
BOLTON: Thank you.
COLLINS: Also tonight, speaking of other actions that Trump took on day one, a federal judge has come out and blocked Trump's executive order to end birthright citizenship. Now, this is something the White House expected. But this judge is calling it blatantly unconstitutional, and is asking, Were any attorneys in the room when this was signed?
[21:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, President Trump is promising to appeal a decision by a federal judge, to block his executive order ending birthright citizenship.
The judge who, I should note, was appointed by Ronald Reagan, blasted Trump's order as "Blatantly unconstitutional," and added, quote, "I have been on the bench for over four decades. I can't remember another case where the question presented was as clear."
Now, while this temporary restraining order is in place, because of this judge, babies who are born in the United States will continue to be U.S. citizens under the 14th Amendment. But it remains to be seen what happens, as this case moves to the court, which is the whole point by the Trump team.
My congressional source tonight is a Democrat from Minnesota. Representative Ilhan Omar.
And the judge asked in this order, Where were the lawyers when the decision to sign this order was made? He said, It boggled his mind that any member of the bar would claim this order was constitutional.
But the Trump team wants this legal fight, because they want this to be in front of the Supreme Court.
REP. ILHAN OMAR (D-MN): Right.
COLLINS: So what happens next year?
OMAR: Yes, I mean, they're looking for an interpretation that's in their favor. And they know to get that, the Supreme Court is their best bet, because they have stacked the court.
COLLINS: And do you think they'll get that if it does ultimately appear in front of the Supreme Court?
OMAR: No, I think the Supreme Court will agree with the judge, out of Washington, who, as you mentioned, was Reagan-appointed. He understands the law, and I do believe that the decision would most likely be, somewhere six to three or so. COLLINS: We also thought, though, that the Supreme Court would not have as broad of a view on presidential immunity as they did. And they surprised a lot of Supreme Court watchers with that. But you feel confident that it will be -- it will continue to be interpreted as it is now, the 14th Amendment?
OMAR: Yes, there might also be a chance that it might not reach the Supreme Court. We know, historically, if a lot of the lower courts agree, and there seems to be a unanimous interpretation, sometimes they don't take it up. And that could be a possibility as well.
COLLINS: Yes, and this is something the Trump team wanted. They wanted this fight. They have pretty clear plans on immigration. I mean, Stephen Miller has laid them out. Tom Homan has laid out the enforcement aspect of this.
And tonight, the Mayor of Newark, New Jersey, said that undocumented residents as well as American citizens were detained during an ICE arrest situation without a warrant. And a spokesperson for ICE called it a targeted worksite operation, which they vowed to restore, that President Biden had ended.
You were obviously pretty vocal about this, in Trump's first term. Given Minneapolis could also certainly be a target here, what have you heard from officials there, and what are you bracing for?
OMAR: Yes, well, I mean, we just have to say this -- how inhumane and wrong this is.
But it's also just disturbing that he's asking law enforcement to break the law, by not getting a warrant, to execute some of these raids. To have this raid in Newark, New Jersey be a warrant-less raid, into a private business, that was targeted because it was owned by immigrants, it's just wrong.
[21:35:00]
And we know, as we've seen in his first presidency, and we've seen with other presidents, who try to do these kind of raids and deportations, there is always going to be a legal resident, there's always going to be a citizen. In this case, we know that even a veteran, who was willing to fight for our country, was caught up. And it is dangerous to have these kind of raids take place.
COLLINS: Tom Homan, the border czar, we had him on, and we asked him about the workplace raids. And he essentially argued that who it really hurts by not having this, is that employers are allowed to abuse these people, by having them here, illegally, and not having the proper documentation, and basically they can treat them however they want.
What would you say to that argument, from people who say, Actually, this only hurts these people who are working really hard, and have these very difficult jobs?
OMAR: Yes, well, we do have undocumented people in this country, who have been here for quite some time. Our immigration system is broken. There is a possibility to provide pathways, for them to become legal residents, make their case.
We have made it hard for people, and have subjected them, and made them vulnerable, to the kind of abuses that he wants to shield them from. If he is serious about that, then he should be advocating for the President, and his party, to work with us, to reform our immigration system.
COLLINS: Is that somewhere where you could work with Republicans?
OMAR: Oh, certainly. I've been positively impacted by our immigration system.
COLLINS: Right.
OMAR: I have worked through the immigration system to become a citizen. So, it is something myself, and so many of us, who are immigrants, who are now citizens, who serve in Congress, fully understand, and are willing to do whatever it takes, to come to the table, to reform this broken and expensive system that we have. It costs us, the taxpayers, a lot of money, to maintain the chaotic system that we have at the moment.
COLLINS: For your party overall, now that Trump is in office, we're not seeing the same kind of response that we did in 2017, when he first took office. It seems like Democrats are lost, and tell me if you disagree with that, in terms of strategy and what comes next.
And you said that Democrats who attended the inauguration, and called Trump a threat to democracy, were essentially being hypocritical, because why would they go, if that's what they really believed?
For the Progressive Caucus, and for progressive Democrats, and all Democrats--
OMAR: And also, you have to remember, Trump himself did not attend Biden's inauguration.
COLLINS: Yes.
OMAR: Even though he was the outgoing president that was supposed to help with that transition. They didn't have the decency to invite the Bidens to the White House. And so, just the level of indignity that they'd shown and disrespect to tradition, to me, said, No one should show him dignity and respect.
COLLINS: Do you think -- so, do you think President Biden handled that wrong? Because he greeted him, he said, Welcome home. He left him a letter. I mean, he followed all of the traditions that typically you see an outgoing president follow.
OMAR: President Biden has always been a real American, a patriot. And I think the fact that he did not have a peaceful transition, and it was challenging for him, wanted to show the American people how to do it, and remind them. And I think there were some exceptions of some of the folks that could have been there, for that sort of purpose.
But to have the mass number of people that showed up, that really didn't have a reason to be there, to me, said--
COLLINS: You think more Democrats should have skipped it?
OMAR: Yes. To me, it sent the wrong message.
COLLINS: And what is that message?
OMAR: That message is that, This person that we told you is like going to destroy our democracy, and is currently in the process of dismantling everything we hold dear? I'm going to sit here, and congratulate him, and pat him in the back, and clap for him.
That's not a good message.
COLLINS: Do you include President Obama and Secretary Clinton among those people?
OMAR: I just do not understand why they would attend.
COLLINS: So, what do you want -- what do you want Democrats to do? How do you want your colleagues to handle a second Trump term? We've heard from some people, like Dan Goldman of New York, saying, Not everything is a five-alarm fire. Pick your battles.
Do you view it that way? Or do you think it needs to look more like it did in 2017?
OMAR: No, obviously we have to pick our battles. I don't think we have to be present for the ceremonial things. This is not a chummy, chummy person that -- you know, this is not a person that we want to be chummy, chummy with.
[21:40:00]
When there is an opportunity to work together, to make life better for the American people, we do that. When it is just standing around and clapping, we don't do that, because this is not someone we should normalize.
COLLINS: Congresswoman Ilhan Omar, thank you for your time tonight.
OMAR: Yes. Thank you.
COLLINS: Thank you for joining us, here on set.
Up next. The other comment we heard from President Trump today, when he was in the Oval. He is open to meeting with the January 6 rioters that he just pardoned, inside the White House.
One man convicted over his plot to keep Trump in power was on Capitol Hill, yesterday. We're going to speak to Stewart Rhodes' ex-wife about her thoughts on Republicans openly embracing him.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:45:00]
COLLINS: Tonight, the rioters from January 6th, they're not only getting an open invitation from some lawmakers on Capitol Hill, to go and take a tour. They could also potentially be on the verge of getting one from the President.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: People you pardoned that participated in the January 6, 2021 attack - do you plan to meet with any of them or meet with them at the White House?
TRUMP: I don't know. I'm sure that they probably would like to. I did -- I did them something important. But what they did is they were protesting a crooked election. I mean, people understand that also. And they were treated very badly. Nobody has been treated like that. So, I'd be open to it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: They weren't protesting a crooked election. The election was free and fair. Trump's own aides said that. Then they broke and entered into a building, and also trashed it, and trespassed, and beat up cops, in some cases with the cops' own weapons and shields that they had.
That comment nonetheless, came after Stewart Rhodes, the leader of the Oath Keepers that you see here, met with several lawmakers, on Capitol Hill, last night. That was the day after Trump commuted his sentence, and releasing him from prison.
Rhodes was convicted of seditious conspiracy and sentenced to 18 years, for spearheading the attack, among the longest of the sentences that we saw.
His ex-wife, who has accused him of abuse, has called him a danger to America, and says she fears for her life, now that he's out. And she's my source tonight. Tasha Adams.
And I just want to thank you for being here.
I know that we had heard from your perspective, after Trump came out and commuted his sentence. But what went through your mind, when you saw him walking around Capitol Hill, with these elected officials?
TASHA ADAMS, EX-WIFE OF OATH KEEPERS LEADER STEWART RHODES: Well, it's pretty disgusting, frankly. And then his comments, you know, he had his little flippant comment that he had, absolutely no regrets. People died. People died because of that day. What a disgusting comment to make.
It's just horrible. It's mind-boggling that he's out there wandering around, being taken seriously, when he spearheaded one of the most violent and just horrific days in American history. COLLINS: I mean, if you were a constituent of one of these lawmakers, who was either meeting with him already, or we've heard from others saying that they would happily give him a tour, what would you say to them?
ADAMS: Well, I would hope getting anywhere near Stewart Rhodes would be political kryptonite. I mean, that's what one would think. You wouldn't think that anybody could stay in office, just wandering around with somebody who's a convicted terrorist.
I mean, there were terrorism enhancements with his sentence. He was not pardoned. It was a little too big of a sentence, I think, to get away with pardoning him. So, his sentence was commuted. He's still a convicted felon. It's insane. It's absolutely insane.
COLLINS: Yes, and Trump, to be clear, did say that they were going to review the sentences of the 14 people he commuted, and potentially pardon them as well.
ADAMS: Yes.
COLLINS: You referenced -- you called it a flippant comment from him, as from Stewart Rhodes, spending several minutes, defending himself to reporters. This is just a little of what he said, in the halls of the Capitol.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEWART RHODES, OATH KEEPERS LEADER: What's my role on January 6th? I sat outside and expressed my personal right to free speech. That's it. I didn't go in the Capitol. I didn't tell anybody else to, as all the witnesses said.
MANU RAJU, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: But you were convicted by a jury of your peers.
RHODES: Sure, an unfair jury, selected from the jury pool.
RAJU: Seditious conspiracy is an incredibly serious charge.
RHODES: Of course it is, and was used for political purposes, to make it look as salacious as possible.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Are you surprised that he doesn't have remorse? Well, I guess, he did say that he was drunk when he said he wanted to hang Nancy Pelosi from a lamp post. But when you hear those comments, what goes through your mind?
ADAMS: I mean, it's exactly what I expect from him. He really likes to lean into the faux righteous indignance. It's sort of how he gains followers. He really likes to do this sort of cult leader traveling Minister bit, where he just goes full fire and brimstone, and the crowd joins in. And kind of the same types of things that we've seen with Trump. But it works on a lot of people. And I didn't expect any remorse from him. I think he made a slight mistake, when he made a comment earlier, when he said he had no regrets, because, of course, we do know from the trial that he does have a regret, and that is that he was recorded, and it played at trial, that he said his only regret was that they didn't bring rifles. So, that was a bit of a misspeak, I think, on his part.
COLLINS: Yes.
[21:50:00]
ADAMS: But his lack of remorse, I mean, that's just him. And his doubling down, that's also him.
COLLINS: Tasha Adams, I know this has been a difficult week for you. Thank you for joining us, to share your perspective.
ADAMS: Yes, thank you for having me on.
COLLINS: Yes. I appreciate your time.
Meanwhile, from the White House today, the President said, quote, All will be revealed, after he ordered the release of files on the assassinations of JFK and other prominent figures. We have a White House insider here next, on when and what we could see in those documents, if anything.
[21:55:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: This evening, we saw President Trump sign a new executive order to release the files related to the assassinations of President John F. Kennedy, his brother, Robert F. Kennedy and Martin Luther King Jr., all of whom were shot and killed in the 1960s.
Since then, the assassinations, especially JFK's, have been the subject of decades of conspiracy theories, some of which are espoused by JFK's nephew and Trump's pick for Health secretary, Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
Trump says this, he believes, is about transparency.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Lot of people are waiting for this for a long -- for years, for decades.
And everything will be revealed.
Give that to RFK Jr.
WILL SCHARF, WHITE HOUSE STAFF SECRETARY: Will do, sir.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I want to bring in my fellow White House insider, Tara Palmeri, as a Senior Political Correspondent at Puck.
He says, everything will be revealed. Is that actually the case, though? Because there's still redactions. I feel like we always get this, like someone says they're going to release something. And then you look at it, and part of the page is redacted, and you can't actually see what's in it.
TARA PALMERI, SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, PUCK, HOST OF THE RINGER PODCAST "SOMEBODY'S GOTTA WIN": Right. And Joe Biden released a number, I think, like 5 million documents on JFK's -- or on JFK's assassination as well. And so, there's been a lot released into the public domain. Do people actually pore through it and get anything out of it? It's unclear.
But it's just another shock and awe measure, like Donald Trump is obviously feeding a long-held belief that there is a Deep State, a Big Brother, a broader conspiracy out there, and this executive order just fuels that.
Also, RFK Jr. is one of his top surrogates. And he owes him something. He brought in a lot of independents, who are also very conspiratorial, and he needs to do him a favor.
But I think this is an easy thing for Donald Trump. We'll find out if there's anything in there. And it's doubtful. But it's a messaging.
COLLINS: Nothing has ever come out in any of the documents--
PALMERI: No. It's messaging.
COLLINS: --that have been revealed.
PALMERI: And it inspires his base that is conspiratorial, and believes for a very long time that there's dark forces out there.
COLLINS: What -- another issue that we saw happen this week. There was a fascinating comment, by Trump today, when he was asked about this. Was he made this huge, flashy tech announcement. It was about A.I. infrastructure, this huge investment. He brought in these three tech CEOs--
PALMERI: Yes.
COLLINS: --into the White House. It was his first full day in office, and he dedicated an entire event to this.
And then Elon Musk came out, hours later, and poured cold water on it--
PALMERI: Yes.
COLLINS: --saying one of the CEOs, they don't have the money that they were promising. He said he had it on good authority. Been feuding with Sam Altman, the OpenAI CEO.
Trump, was asked about this today, specifically Elon Musk. And this is what his view of that was.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I don't know if they do. But you know, they are putting up the money. The government's not putting up anything. They're putting up money. They're very rich people, so I hope they do.
But Elon, one of the people he happens to hate. But I have certain hatreds of people too.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: He seemed a lot less bothered by it than some White House people I've spoken to who were quite bothered by it.
PALMERI: Right. I mean, Donald Trump loves to create drama, but he doesn't love it when other people create drama. So, I think he's willing to put up with this for now. But if Elon Musk keeps throwing cold water on his achievements? I mean, raising $500 billion for an A.I. initiative is a big deal. That's going to be a problem.
And also, there are a lot of people coming at Trump, right now, willing to write really big checks, like Elon Musk does. And when they do that, they lower Elon Musk's status, obviously. And I think he realizes that Elon Musk not only wants to be best pals with the President of the United States, like he wants to be a trillionaire, he's looking out for his own business interests.
But these guys can write big checks too. And I think he's threatened by that. And I think the more you hear from Elon Musk, and the more he gets in the way of Trump's agenda, there's going to be friction, and he's going to lose his status.
COLLINS: One person that we were talking about, that has also tried to ingratiate themselves with the White House -- maybe not ingratiate, but has met with them, and certainly made the tributes, is John Fetterman.
PALMERI: Yes.
COLLINS: A Democratic senator from Pennsylvania, who Trump very much did not want to -- want to win that Senate race.
You have some reporting on how people are kind of turning to him, or certain Democrats, who maybe feel rudderless. What have you heard?
PALMERI: Yes, it's just that John Fetterman sort of offers like an authentic type of like bro masculinity that matches what Donald Trump was offering this election cycle. He's also a moderate from a state that the Democrats lost.
And he speaks his mind. He speaks like from off the cuff, authentically. He sounds like Donald Trump. He's not willing to buck the party and establishment, in the same way that Donald Trump was willing to buck the party and the establishment and create the party in his own way. [22:00:00]
Sure, the base doesn't really love Fetterman a lot, and I think that's why you hear a lot of conspiracies that he's going to be a Republican.
But he just, like, might be the guy that Democrats need, right now, when they don't have a unified leader, who can just speak plainly in Trump's speak against him. He's the kind of guy, who'd go on Joe Rogan, and really hold his own. And the Democrats don't have that person, right now.
COLLINS: Yes. It'll be fascinating to watch.
Tara Palmeri, great reporting, in Puck.
Thank you so much for joining us.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" is up next.
