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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Senate Voting On Defense Secretary Nominee Pete Hegseth; McConnell Votes Against Trump's Defense Pick Hegseth; Pete Hegseth Confirmed As Defense Secretary After VP Breaks Tie. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired January 24, 2025 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: Two Republicans, Lisa Murkowski, Susan Collins, expected to vote no. We don't yet know about Senators Mitch McConnell and Thom Tillis.
Thom Tillis did speak to Manu Raju, earlier today, and indicated if he found something new, that might have impacted his vote. But it sounded like he was heading toward a confirming vote. But again, we don't know for sure.
That will be covered extensively by Kaitlan Collins at "THE SOURCE," which starts now.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): This is CNN Breaking News.
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KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: As we come on the air tonight. Senators just started the final confirmation vote on President Trump's controversial pick to lead the Pentagon. Pete Hegseth himself has just arrived on Capitol Hill, to watch this proceeding up close. We're told that he's in a room with his family, near the Senate floor.
You are looking live at the floor. Because right now, at this hour, his fate is uncertain. Senate Republican leaders, and the White House, are closely watching two major wildcards, this evening.
We just heard from the Senate Majority Leader, John Thune, who said he is not sure how senators Mitch McConnell and Thom Tillis are going to vote.
Now, if both are noes, along with senators Lisa Murkowski and Susan Collins, and every Democrat, Hegseth's nomination will be defeated on the floor. If only one of them is a no, we could see the Vice President brought in, to have to break a tie, something that rarely happens for a cabinet nominee.
For his part, we heard from President Trump earlier today, asking reporters for their insight. How is Mitch McConnell going to vote?
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DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I don't know what's going to happen, never knowing those things. But Pete's a very, very good man. I hope he makes it. I hope he makes it.
I was very surprised that Collins and Murkowski would do that. And of course, Mitch is always a no vote, I guess. Is Mitch a no vote? How about Mitch?
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COLLINS: One thing is certain, tonight, it is going to be close. Probably closer, potentially, than any vote for Defense secretary in modern history. You can see here, almost every nominee in the last 50 years has had overwhelming bipartisan support, until tonight.
I want to get straight to Capitol Hill, where CNN's Manu Raju has been working his sources.
Manu, obviously, a lot of uncertainty going into this evening. Where does this stand right now, as this vote is just getting started?
MANU RAJU, CNN ANCHOR & CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, this vote is on a knife's edge, Kaitlan.
Uncertainty looms in the Senate GOP leadership. They are cautiously optimistic that they will get there, but they simply don't know for sure. Because they are watching Senator McConnell very closely, Senator Tillis very closely. And if they vote no, that'll be enough to sink this nomination.
Now, it's very possible that JD Vance will be needed to break a tie. In fact, I just caught up with the Senate Armed Services Committee Chairman, Roger Wicker, who he said he's been talking to senators all day. And he also told reporters, he said, quote, I think we will probably need to see the Vice President.
Now, if Vance comes in and breaks a tie, that would for -- that will only be the second time in history that the VP has been needed to break a tie for a cabinet nominee, just showing how contentious and partisan this fight has become, over the past several days.
Now, all day long, Tillis has faced the calls and talked to a number of senators, including Senate Majority Leader, John Thune. Tillis himself is up for reelection in 2026, and undoubtedly would draw the ire of Donald Trump, if he were to break ranks with him.
Mitch McConnell is seen as a wildcard as well, no longer the Senate Republican leader, someone who is free to sort of vote his will. Uncertain if he would run for reelection, but that is not on his mind. He has kept his cards very close to the vest, which is why there is so much uncertainty at the moment.
Even as Republican leaders believe that he barely will get confirmed, in this hour, there is still a possibility that it all collapses, if those two senators decide to break with their party, which is why so much attention is being paid to them, as they come to the Senate floor, in a matter of moments, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: Yes, and I was out there this morning at the White House. Trump told us he just assumes that Mitch McConnell is a no vote. Obviously, a lot of animosity between the two of them.
But what is it that you've heard about Tillis? Why is this -- why has he been the center of everyone's focus today, as to how he's going to vote?
RAJU: He has not said. In fact, they have been radio-silent, publicly, about how he views this. We do know he's been talking to senators, privately.
Now, I did catch up with Senator Tillis, yesterday, because I had heard that he was considering weighing how to vote on this nomination. He told me that he wants -- he's going through all the allegations of misconduct from Pete Hegseth's past.
He was looking for corroborating information then, including in a recent affidavit from an ex-sister-in-law, accusing him of treating his second ex-wife poorly, and raising concerns about excessive drinking, and the like. Of course, Hegseth has denied those allegations.
He said, you'd would know more in the next 24 hours, if there was any additional information. So, it's uncertain if that's what it is, Kaitlin, or if it's anything else, as he has reviewed this nomination.
[21:05:00]
But senators, sometimes they vote one way in the procedural vote, which was yesterday, to advance the nomination, on a simple majority, 51-49, moving to the final confirmation vote. Sometimes, they vote differently on the ultimate vote. And we'll see if that happens here.
But unclear what it is that has caused -- weighed down Tillis, at this critical moment.
Kaitlan.
COLLINS: OK. Manu, we'll be checking in with you throughout the hour, obviously, as we are watching this vote get underway.
Our source joining us tonight is a Republican senator, who just voted. Jim Banks of Indiana.
Senator, what do you expect to happen here? Do you think Pete Hegseth is ultimately going to get confirmed tonight?
SEN. JIM BANKS (R-IN): Yes, Pete Hegseth is going to -- he has the votes. He's going to be confirmed. He's going to be sworn in, tomorrow, to be the next Secretary of Defense. It took a few days longer than we wanted it to. But it's going to happen, tonight. There's a lot of confidence on the floor.
I just cast my vote for Pete Hegseth. And Republicans are confident that we're going to get it done tonight.
COLLINS: Have you spoken to Senator Thom Tillis?
BANKS: I haven't. I haven't spoken to the others, who are rumored to be against him, either. But I expect him -- I expect Pete Hegseth to get 50 votes, maybe more. JD Vance, the Vice President, is in the Capitol. He'll break the tie if he has to.
It's time to move on. We have a lot of other nominees to get to, to fill President Trump's cabinet. We need them -- we need them to get to work right away. But this is the most important one. The Secretary of Defense has to get across the river to the Pentagon, to get on the job, and do the job of cleaning up the Pentagon, to keep America safe and secure. It's important that we get this done tonight.
COLLINS: So, do you think that Vice President Vance will be needed to ultimately break this tie?
BANKS: There's a possibility of that. He's here in the building, in case he's needed to cast the tie-breaking vote.
Either way, as far as I'm concerned, it doesn't matter. Let's get this over with. Let's get Pete Hegseth over to the Pentagon. There's a lot of important work to do, a big mess to clean up from the last four years at the Department of Defense.
Pete Hegseth is a reformer. He's ready to go. He doesn't back down from any fight. Obviously, we've seen that over the last few weeks. He's ready to go. We got to -- we got to get him on the job, and move on to the other important nominations, as fast as we can.
COLLINS: Yes, you talk about the state of the Pentagon. And obviously, this is something that a lot of your colleagues are taking seriously, as they take this into consideration.
And normally, when there's a Defense secretary vote, it's not always very political. And you just mentioned, the 50-50 margin that you think could come down here, which would require Vice President Vance to break the vote. If that is the case, it would be the smallest margin of a confirmation vote for any Defense secretary in modern history. I think Chuck Hagel was the other closest. He was 58 to 41.
What does that say about Pete Hegseth, in your view?
BANKS: I think it says a lot more about the Democrats. The Democrats have stalled this nomination. They're playing political games.
It's been a -- it's been a given, that we're going to confirm him, that we have the votes to do it, for a number of days. And as I said, it's a matter of national security, to have a confirmed Secretary of Defense at the Pentagon, doing their job.
Frankly, I don't care if it's 50 votes plus the Vice President, or a 100 votes to one. This is a -- time is of the essence. It's important to get him on the job. And it's unfortunate that the Democrats have played games through this. I expect them to play games with a lot of the other nominations. It's not just Pete Hegseth. There are other nominees, across the board, that Democrats are stalling as well, whose backgrounds might look a lot different, even than Pete's or other nominees'. Let's get this -- let's get these cabinet secretaries in place, so that we can get to work.
COLLINS: Murkowski and Collins are no votes. They're Republicans. Do you think they're playing games?
BANKS: I don't know what their reasoning is. I haven't talked to them about the nomination. But at the end of the day, it's been--
COLLINS: Murkowski said, she didn't think he had the character to lead the Pentagon.
BANKS: Well, obviously, I disagree. I just voted to confirm Pete Hegseth.
But it's the Democrats who have been playing stalling games, and holding up the vote. And I'm glad that Leader Thune has brought that to an end. We're voting right now. And by the time your show is over, tonight, Pete Hegseth will be confirmed, and he'll be sworn in, tomorrow.
COLLINS: The question that some of your colleagues have had, even Republicans, were about the allegations about excessive drinking, on behalf of Pete Hegseth. He has pledged that he will not drink, if he is confirmed, by the end of this show, which you believe he will be.
Do you feel confident that you won't have any regrets or any concerns, three months from now, or six months from now, about that concern with him running the Pentagon?
BANKS: Look, it's really sad that we've gone through weeks of anonymous allegations, and a lot -- a lot of what has gone into stalling and blocking President Trump's nominees, not just Pete Hegseth, but other nominees as well.
So, Pete Hegseth is a decorated combat veteran. He's an Ivy League graduate. He's got the right background -- he led troops into battle. He's got the right background to go to the Pentagon, and be a disrupter, and clean up a mess from the last four years.
Never forget, Lloyd Austin, and Joe Biden, and some of the leadership at the Pentagon, what happened in Afghanistan. Lloyd Austin disappeared, he went AWOL, on the job, twice, and didn't tell the President that he was going to go missing.
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A lot of big issues at the Pentagon that we have to address right away, and that's why time is of the essence. Let's get Pete Hegseth on the job. And tomorrow, he will be on the job, and we have a lot of work to do. COLLINS: Yes. And just to say, you said it, anonymous. That is what he said as well during the hearing. Part of that did come from his second wife in that statement to the FBI. But clearly, you do feel confident he'll get confirmed, and he's the right leader.
Senator Jim Banks, I know you have a busy night. Thank you for running over to the camera for us, this evening.
BANKS: Thank you.
COLLINS: And I want to bring in CNN's Lauren Fox, who's also live on Capitol Hill.
Lauren, tell us what you're hearing, because I know you were outside -- stationed outside of Tillis' office, earlier. What are you seeing tonight?
LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, we are outside the U.S. Capitol, where a lot of lawmakers come in for this vote. And I actually just caught up with Senator Kevin Cramer. He is backing Hegseth, and has been a strong supporter of him for several weeks now.
But I did ask him what message it would send, if the past Republican leader, Mitch McConnell, who obviously is just a rank-and-file member at this moment, what it would mean if he voted against Hegseth? And he said, It might be a black eye on his legacy and his career. But he also noted it is a senator's prerogative to vote -- want to vote.
But it is such an interesting moment. Because obviously, we know McConnell and Trump have had a froth differing views of what the U.S.' role is around the globe, what the U.S.' role should be in the war in Ukraine. And I think there are some questions about where McConnell is tonight. He just walked onto the floor. And our colleague, Ted Barrett, said he was silent as he was walking onto the floor.
Obviously, McConnell doesn't do a lot of hallway interviews, but given the gravity of this moment, given the fact we are all keeping a very close eye on him, just an interesting observation, as we go into this vote that's ongoing.
Kaitlan.
COLLINS: And Lauren, I should note that Thom Tillis just tweeted that he will be a yes, on Pete Hegseth.
Obviously, there had been big questions about how he was going to vote. He'd been pretty quiet today, after asking questions about firsthand corroboration, of some of the allegations against Pete Hegseth. But he is now saying, in a post on Twitter, that he will be voting yes, on Trump's nominee to run the Defense department.
Does that mean that Pete Hegseth is guaranteed to be confirmed, this evening?
FOX: Yes. Now, the drama is, are they going to need the Vice President potentially to break a tie? But Republicans can lose up to three votes, and still get this nominee through.
So, the question, right now is, what does Mitch McConnell do? But even if he voted against it, even if Lisa Murkowski and Susan Collins, who we know, voted against advancing this nominee, yesterday, they continue to vote no, which they've said they would? Then that puts you in a position, where Vance could break the tie. And Kaitlan, that is really the epitome of the drama for tonight. Hegseth would continue to be confirmed.
COLLINS: What has the evolution been like on Capitol Hill, over the last, I guess, six weeks or so, when it comes to this nomination?
Because in December, when we were reporting from Mar-a-Lago, as the transition was getting underway, there were real concerns, for several days, that Trump was going to have to pull Pete Hegseth's name, that it wasn't even going to get here.
And then, of course, we are now in this moment, where Thom Tillis is saying yes, he is going to vote yes on him. Joni Ernst has said she's voting yes. We have only two Republican no, so far.
FOX: Yes. I mean, there has been this drip-drip-drip of reporting about Pete Hegseth's passed at every turn. He's, of course, denied any wrongdoing, denied any allegation of sexual assault, denied any problem with drinking or alcohol in the past.
And I will tell you, from reporting that I have done, he went meeting to meeting with these Republican lawmakers, including some real skeptics, and had some very tough conversations, sometimes multiple times.
That was the case with Senator Joni Ernst. She's a Republican woman on the Senate Armed Services Committee. She expressed a lot of concern about his past statements on women serving in combat roles. She obviously is a veteran herself. And she got to a place, where she ultimately could support him.
Now, there was quite a pressure campaign against her, and there was obviously a lot of concern that perhaps if she voted against him, that could mean something for her own reelection. She's up for reelection in 2026, what does that mean for a primary?
But I will tell you that Republicans, over and over again, in their meetings, felt like Hegseth came in. He was extremely deferential to lawmakers. He was extremely prepared, in a lot of these meetings. He had a really strong grasp, many Republican senators said, of the workings of the Pentagon.
Now, that wasn't enough for some people. Senator Murkowski made clear that her -- one of her key concerns was the fact he did not have the management experience, to lead an organization, as vast as the Defense department.
But obviously, for a lot of Republican lawmakers, they got to yes, in part because of some of those one-on-one meetings that he had on Capitol Hill, Kaitlan. [21:15:00]
COLLINS: Yes, and in this statement from Senator Tillis, tonight, who we were watching very closely, as we came on the air, he talks about Pete Hegseth. He says, he conducted his own due diligence, after his nomination was sent to the floor, talking about asking tough questions of him.
He said he had candor and openness in answering those questions. He said, he has a unique perspective, as a veteran, and unquestionably passionate about modernizing our military, and supporting the brave patriots like himself who serve our nation, he said, he will support his nomination.
When it comes down to looking at this, now the question is, how Senator McConnell is going to vote. Trump said today, he assumes he's just a no. That's -- I mean, Trump doesn't like McConnell, obviously. That's been very clear in many of his Truth Social posts. But he was walking out this morning, about 12 hours ago, believing he was going to be a no anyway.
FOX: Yes. And, I mean, I thought it was really interesting. Our colleague, Ted Barrett, talked to Thune, earlier today. And Thune said that he had sent a list to the White House of who was backing Hegseth. It's unclear what that list said exactly. And obviously, McConnell did vote to advance this nomination yesterday.
But it is not unheard of. It is not necessarily even uncommon that a Republican senator believes that they should continue the debate in the process, in the United States Senate, but then ultimately decides to do something else on the final vote.
So, it is just a question mark of is that Donald Trump projecting what he thinks might happen with someone who he has not been close with on Capitol Hill? Or is Donald Trump in the know about something, because of communication from Capitol Hill? And I think we just don't know the answer right now. We may get more clarity on that shortly, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: Yes, that's a great point. And we know Vice President Vance is there tonight, standing by.
Lauren Fox, we'll continue to check back in with you. Keep us updated on what you're hearing from lawmakers who are walking by you.
We're joined now by a Democrat, the Democratic senator of Connecticut, Senator Richard Blumenthal.
Senator, what do you make of Thom Tillis' statement, coming out tonight, saying that he will be voting to support Pete Hegseth, amid a big question today of whether or not he was going to be another no.
SEN. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL (D-CT): Sadly and tragically for the nation, not surprising.
The Republicans falling into line here, under pressure from Donald Trump, and the right-wing ecosystem, despite their knowing that this nominee is eminently unqualified and unprepared, is really saddening and shocking to me. And I think this decision may haunt them.
I hope that Hegseth will do the job, because his success is America's success. And the lives of 3.4 million Americans, defending our country, and war and peace, life and death depend on what he does.
But I think that this decision, by my Republican colleagues, to fold to the Trump threats, and intimidation, is really very deeply disappointing. In fact, I find them spineless.
COLLINS: Did you ever meet with Pete Hegseth, as he was up there on the Hill, meeting with your colleagues?
BLUMENTHAL: He never met with any of the Democrats. We were denied--
COLLINS: He didn't meet with one Democrat?
BLUMENTHAL: Not one Democrat, except for the Ranking Member of the committee, Jack Reed.
But Kaitlan, I think we have to be very clear. What's on the public record, about his marital infidelity, his alcohol abuse, his sexual improprieties, his financial mismanagement of two veterans organizations that he ran into the ground, financially, would be disqualifying, if he were under consideration for a promotion, from Colonel to General, from Corporal to Sergeant. And my Republican colleagues know it.
So, I think we now need to hold accountable Pete Hegseth, and my Republican colleagues, because there is a continuing danger to our national security.
COLLINS: Well, Senator, can I interrupt you with some breaking news? Because we have just -- we're watching the vote here. Mitch McConnell just voted no, on Pete Hegseth. He had not said yet. As Manu said earlier, he was holding his cards very close to the vest. He has voted no, on Pete Hegseth.
Obviously, really remarkable. You can see Senator McConnell, just right here on the screen. He's on the Senate floor, chit-chatting with some of your colleagues.
He was the Senate Majority Leader, not that long ago. He was leading Republicans in the Senate, trying to whip their votes at times.
What does it say to you that he just came out and voted -- I mean, he's not running again, so he's got that. But what does it say to you that he came out and said no, to Trump's pick to run the Pentagon?
[21:20:00]
BLUMENTHAL: What it says to me is that he's voting his conscience and conviction. There is some question about whether he will run again, so he may feel liberated. But the fact is that the threats to my Republican colleagues of primaries, of funding and contribution cut- offs, have affected the outcome here. And as much as I admire his standing up, the rest of his colleagues have decided not to do so. And the vote essentially will have little or no meaning to the outcome, because JD Vance will break the tie in favor of Hegseth.
COLLINS: But what does it say that JD Vance will have to come in, and break the tie, with the Vice President doing so? I believe that would be only the second time in recent history that the Vice President has had to come in to break the tie for a cabinet nominee.
We've seen it for judges and for other issues, other legislation. But for a cabinet nominee, for the Vice President have to come in, much less the Defense secretary, which typically is not really -- it's bipartisan. Normally, people from both parties vote for that person to run the Pentagon, because of just the gravity of that role.
BLUMENTHAL: You're absolutely right. And what it says is we are in no ordinary time. We are in a time of maximum polarization, where the Trump loyalty test prevails over doubts and reservations that my colleagues have. And they know in their hearts, but fail to have the courage to stand up. What we're seeing here is an extraordinary exercise of political muscle.
But in the long run, let me just make very clear, Kaitlan, I'm going to hold my Republican colleagues accountable, if Pete Hegseth deploys our military to do surveillance and searches of people's home, if he denies opportunity to women or fails to protect them against sexual assault. If he purges the military ranks, on the basis of a false loyalty test. All of these dangers may come to pass. He's going to have to come through us. We'll fight him.
We are determined to preserve the merit, the professionalism of our American military, because it's essential to our national defense. And our military men and women deserve the best leadership, because they are the best in the world. They train constantly and skillfully, to be the best. And that's what we're going to demand of Pete Hegseth.
COLLINS: You are in the minority, though. And so, I think the question is really what that pushback from Democrats looks like? Because obviously, we heard from your colleague, Jim Banks. He was just complaining that Democrats slowed some of these confirmation votes. But ultimately, they are still happening. So, what does--
BLUMENTHAL: There's--
COLLINS: --a Democratic resistance look like, in this kind of -- in this administration, and with this Senate in Republican control?
BLUMENTHAL: What it looks like is what we're doing, right now, trying to expose the truth, despite an FBI report that has gaps and inadequacies, despite the denial of an opportunity to meet with this nominee, despite the denial of a second round of questioning, during the hearing.
But we do have agency. We have votes that will determine what appropriations go to the Pentagon, and we'll have votes over other nominees. And we will hold accountable our Republican colleagues in the court of public opinion. They're going to have to stand for election. The American people will not tolerate playing politics with our military.
They may want change, and Donald Trump is talking about a change agent at the Pentagon. But what he has done is install a chaos agent, and one who may well dumb down the Pentagon. So, we have to hold our Republican colleagues accountable.
COLLINS: But Senator, my last question for you, I watched a video today of when Secretary -- Defense secretary, Mark Esper, in Trump's first term, came out and said, he wasn't invoking the Insurrection Act, because he thought that putting the U.S. military and law enforcement roles was a last-resort scenario, last case, worst situation you could think of, and that he wasn't going to do that.
What do you do here, if that is something that Defense secretary, Pete Hegseth, is willing to do?
BLUMENTHAL: Well--
COLLINS: Do Democrats have any options there?
BLUMENTHAL: We have options, because we have the power of the purse. We have the appropriations power. They need us, because of the filibuster rule, because debate can be extended indefinitely, not for these nominations, necessarily, but otherwise for legislation, in order to pass it. And they do need cooperation from us, in some ways.
But ultimately, we have to go to the voters. The American people have to have a say here. And they will have a say, if Pete Hegseth encounters the kind of difficulties that we've predicted.
[21:25:00]
But here's why I am so deeply saddened, and outraged, with my Republican colleagues. In the meantime, he could do a lot of damage, because the powers over 3.4 million Americans who defend our nation, and the budget of $850 billion, gives him powers that are so hugely determinative of the future of our nation. And we need to--
COLLINS: Yes.
BLUMENTHAL: --stand up and fight.
COLLINS: It's a huge position, and it looks like he is about to be confirmed there. We'll see what happens with the Vice President coming out.
Senator Richard Blumenthal, thank you for running over to the camera, and joining us on a very busy night, on Capitol Hill.
Speaking of running around the Hill, I want to go back to CNN's Manu Raju, who has more information.
Manu, the big question was why -- how Thom Tillis got to yes. What have you heard about that so far tonight?
RAJU: Yes, in fact, he just briefly spoke to reporters, as he walked on to the Senate floor. And he said that he had spoke to Pete Hegseth, for nearly two hours, amid new allegations that have come out in recent days.
Those allegations, of course, the affidavit that was written by his ex-sister-in-law, Hegseth's ex-sister-in-law, accusing him of abusive behavior, excessive drinking towards his second ex-wife.
Hegseth has denied all those allegations. And in fact, he sent a letter to Thom Tillis, just before the vote, responding to those allegations. And he had conversations with Tillis as well. And that seems to have been enough to satisfy Tillis.
Tillis told me yesterday he needed to see corroborating evidence with that affidavit, in order to essentially vote against this nomination. But apparently did not see enough evidence, he believes, was enough to kill this nomination altogether.
But Mitch McConnell's vote is very significant. Even though it looks like Hegseth is on his way to get confirmed, on a 50-50 vote, with the Vice President breaking a tie, that would be only the second time in history that has happened for a cabinet nominee, a VP breaking a tie.
Seeing Mitch McConnell break ranks with his party, with Donald Trump's nominees, also suggest a bit of a wildcard, as McConnell adjusts to life in the rank-and-file, no longer the Republican leader. He has told colleagues that he has the shackles off, and he can vote his will, now that he does not have to necessarily toe the line as a Republican leader.
And there are some other key nominations coming down the pike, Anderson -- Kaitlan, including Tulsi Gabbard. That's someone for the Director of National Intelligence. Robert F. Kennedy Jr. for Health and Human Services. McConnell seen as a swing vote on those two nominations as well.
So, what will this vote say about how he will approach rest of Trump's agenda, rest of his Cabinet nominees? Something to watch as the Republican -- former Republican leader breaks ranks, and now forcing VP JD Vance to come in, and break a tie, to get Hegseth on over the finish line, barely.
Kaitlan.
COLLINS: Yes. And so, he spoke to him for two hours. And Hegseth also sent to Senator Thom Tillis a letter, Manu?
RAJU: Yes, that was essentially it. At least the questions that Tillis had, he said that he needed to speak to Hegseth. Hegseth responded to those questions. And not just Hegseth, responding to those questions. Other Republicans also weighing in directly with Thom Tillis. The Majority Leader of the Senate, John Thune, spoke to him several times through the course of the day. So, no doubt Thom Tillis, up for reelection in 2026, potentially could face a primary as well, has faced enormous pressure to get in line, to fall in line. But believes that his questions have been answered about those allegations of--
COLLINS: Yes.
RAJU: --abuse of behavior and the like. So that's how we got to yes, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: Yes, that's remarkable. Great reporting there, Manu Raju.
Everyone stay with us. We're going to take a quick break. But we are watching closely, because we do believe we're going to see something, as Manu noted there, that you don't ever see the Vice President having to come in and break a vote for a cabinet nominee. Only the second time in modern history. We'll be back with that moment, in a quick second.
[21:30:00]
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COLLINS: And we are watching closely, on the Senate floor, as we are waiting to see Vice President, JD Vance, come out on the floor, to break the tie, we believe, is expected here, on Pete Hegseth's confirmation, as the next Defense secretary at the Pentagon.
The reason he's going to be needed to come out and break that tie is because there are three Republican no votes, on Pete Hegseth. Lisa Murkowski, Susan Collins and Mitch McConnell.
Trump, this morning, as he was leaving the White House, predicted that this would be the case, and that McConnell would ultimately vote no, on Pete Hegseth. He was holding his cards quite close to the vest.
And seeing JD Vance come out here and break this tie will be something that you don't often see for a cabinet nominee. It's only the second time that this has ever happened in modern history.
But we are waiting to see him come out on the Senate floor, where you were seeing the senators chat with their colleagues, as they are waiting for this vote for Trump's Defense secretary -- Defense secretary nominee to be final and over.
My political panel is here at the table with me.
And it's great to have both of you here.
Shermichael, we're looking at this letter that Pete Hegseth just posted. Because Thom Tillis was -- it was not clear how he was going to vote--
SHERMICHAEL SINGLETON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Yes. COLLINS: --on Pete Hegseth's nomination. He actually had a claim from his sister-in-law, once upon a time, I don't believe she's his sister- in-law anymore, where she made all these allegations about him and his actions toward his second wife.
He sent out this very detailed letter that I just read that he sent to Senator Thom Tillis, disputing her characterizations, saying that some of them he believes are false or made up or inaccurate. But it clearly shows how on the fence Thom Tillis was that this required a letter from Pete Hegseth to him, disputing these allegations one by one.
SINGLETON: I mean, look, he has a right to defend himself. But it wasn't just Pete Hegseth defending himself. It was also the voters of Tillis' state. I remember talking about this two months ago.
And you slowly began to see Republican and conservative activist groups, within the state, and across the country, beginning to showcase their ire against Tillis, saying, You need to support the president.
He's also up for reelection pretty soon. And the last thing--
COLLINS: In 2026.
SINGLETON: Exactly. And the last thing he wants is the President of the United States going against him. Because I think if that were to happen, he would probably lose.
[21:35:00]
We have seen what happens when Republicans don't vote in the direction of the Republican voters who voted them into office. Most of them are now retired. I think Tillis made the right decision, because he saw the writing on the wall.
COLLINS: What's your view, just watching all of this shake out? And the fact that this is going to be, we don't ever see a Defense secretary nominee vote this close. Carl Hulse did a great breakdown in The New York Times, earlier today, with just the numbers. Chuck Hagel was the closest, and he was at, I wrote it down here, 58 to 41. We're about to see a 50-50 vote, we believe for Pete Hegseth.
ASHLEY ETIENNE, FORMER COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR FOR VP HARRIS: Well, I mean, it's primarily because of his character, his actions, what we know about who he is as a person, not just how he treats women. And this is not just from his former sister-in-law. This is also from his mother. Remember his mother put down in an email--
SINGLETON: Which she retracted, by the way.
ETIENNE: Yes, because you now have a child, I have a child, that we don't want to hurt our children's feelings. But the reality is, we have to be honest with them. You don't put in -- put that in an email to your child, unless it's actually true.
So nevertheless, so this -- that's what it boils down to. It's character, and it's competency. And too many Republicans had questions on both of those facts. That's why the two senators are deciding -- three senators are now, Republicans, are deciding they're not going to vote for him.
But here's the thing is, Trump could have gotten any number of people to run the Defense department. Why Hegseth? That's really the question here.
COLLINS: And some of his nominees are getting through overwhelmingly. I mean, Marco Rubio, a senator, so obviously, has goodwill with his colleagues, and he's getting that.
But this is getting so bad that -- but can I -- can I just read two posts?
ETIENNE: Yes, go ahead.
COLLINS: As we're watching this all happen in real time.
JD Vance just tweeted with the crying laughing emoji, I thought I was done voting in the Senate. Because he's coming -- to come back in here and break this tie.
ETIENNE: I mean, it's sad that he thinks that this is a joke. We're talking about the Department of Defense, the largest, most aggressive, well-funded military in the world. Not only do people in this country, but the world depends on the Department of Defense.
And you're going to now install someone, who we're not even sure that he's a recovering alcoholic.
SINGLETON: OK. So, wait, wait, wait, wait, no, no, no, no, no. We're not--
ETIENNE: There's no -- there's no dispute about that particular issue.
SINGLETON: We're not going to do that. There were a lot--
ETIENNE: No, no, I mean, the reality is, is--
SINGLETON: There were a lot of people--
ETIENNE: --senators owe the American people--
SINGLETON: There were a lot of people--
ETIENNE: --these Republicans--
SINGLETON: There were a lot of people at Fox News, who worked with Pete Hegseth, who came out and spoke very favorably about his character.
ETIENNE: Fox News, is that your source?
SINGLETON: If they worked with him--
ETIENNE: Get out of town.
SINGLETON: --they have every right to come out and speak to his character. They know him better than the two of us, maybe the three of us sitting at this panel.
ETIENNE: Well, I'm talking about his mother, his sister-in-law, his ex-wife.
SINGLETON: Also -- wait a minute. Also, there were dozens of veterans -- there were dozens of veterans--
ETIENNE: Those people really know everything, even those at Fox News.
SINGLETON: --who showed up to the Senate confirmation hearing, to showcase their force and belief that Pete Hegseth was and is the right person for this job.
ETIENNE: How about the veteran organizations that fired him for misappropriation?
SINGLETON: There's a reason the President nominated him, because he wanted a disrupter.
ETIENNE: How about those organizations?
SINGLETON: And I think Pete Hegseth is going to be that.
Now, we can talk about the history of the Department of Defense.
ETIENNE: Actually I think I agree with you on that.
SINGLETON: The Department of Defense has a slew of issues. We should be able to acknowledge that. Military readiness is a problem. The Department of Defense has a slew of issues, as it pertains to not being able to account for budget. The Department of Defense has issues as it pertains to hypersonic missiles.
ETIENNE: And he was fired for misappropriating funds.
SINGLETON: So let's not -- let's--
ETIENNE: For running veterans organization into the ground.
SINGLETON: Wait a minute. Wait a minute, Ashley.
ETIENNE: Shermichael, let's be honest.
SINGLETON: Let's not pretend that the Department of Defense is just beacon of successful departments in the United States government.
ETIENNE: Let's be honest about Hegseth.
SINGLETON: It is not.
ETIENNE: If you want me to be honest about the Department of Defense, let's be honest about Hegseth. He ran veterans organizations into the ground. He got fired.
SINGLETON: Two.
ETIENNE: That's enough.
COLLINS: What does it say--
ETIENNE: I mean. That's enough. Why would you put him in charge of the biggest budget in the government?
SINGLETON: So, how many--
COLLINS: What does it say--
SINGLETON: --how many -- wait a minute here.
COLLINS: Hang on. No, no. Hang on.
SINGLETON: How many -- go ahead, Kaitlan.
ETIENNE: There you go.
COLLINS: What does it say that Senator McConnell, though, clearly agrees -- I mean, Senator McConnell is no shrinking violet, and clearly not is some Democrat. Eric Trump is tweeting--
ETIENNE: He has nothing to lose.
COLLINS: Eric Trump is treating Senator McConnell's the worst because he voted no on this.
He is not someone, who takes defense issues lightly. He is someone, who believes that Ukraine should continue to get U.S. support. I mean, that's how he is viewing this. And he may have known that Tillis was not going to necessarily be a no. And now he voted no, still more as a symbolic vote, knowing it was not going to ultimately sink this nomination.
SINGLETON: I mean, look, I'm going to pull this up. Let's remember George H.W. Bush's Defense secretary.
COLLINS: John Tower.
SINGLETON: How did Mitch McConnell vote for him?
COLLINS: He voted yes on him. We just did that fun fact.
SINGLETON: Well, there you go.
COLLINS: In 1989--
SINGLETON: So, Mitch McConnell is a hypocrite. I could care less what Mitch McConnell thinks. He's irrelevant at this point in time. He, once upon a time, had power. His influence over the U.S. Senate is over. COLLINS: One moment. I do want to standby, because we are expecting to see the Vice President, JD Vance, arrive here on the floor to cast that vote. As Ashley noted his response there, saying that she believed he was making light of the fact that he is going to have to come in and do something we rarely have to see a vice president do, break a tied-vote on a cabinet nominee.
We're going to bring that moment to you live, after a quick break.
[21:40:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Back with our breaking news this hour, as we are awaiting Vice President, JD Vance, to arrive here, where he was doing this job not that long ago, voting on nominees for the candidate. This time, he's voting in a very different way. He will be voting to break the tie to confirm President Trump's nominee for the Defense secretary, Pete Hegseth.
We're watching the motorcade arrive here as he is -- we're expecting JD Vance to get out of this motorcade, where he was going to go in. He's joking online, about having to cast this tie-breaking vote, given he is in a very new job, this is not that different from what his old job was.
My source tonight is Democratic congresswoman Mikie Sherrill of New Jersey, who spent nearly a decade on active duty in the United States Navy, flying missions throughout Europe and in the Middle East, as a helicopter pilot.
And it's great to have you here.
Because I just want to note. We are watching to see JD Vance come in. We're also seeing Donald Trump in Los Angeles boarding Air Force One. We're waiting to see if he is going to comment on how all of this is playing out. That yes, ultimately, it looks like Pete Hegseth is going to get confirmed here.
But on this news that Mitch McConnell is voting no, what was your reaction to that?
[21:45:00]
REP. MIKIE SHERRILL (D-NJ): I think it's been very interesting to watch the dynamic here, between the Republican women, and some of the women who have just kind of drawn a line at this. And then certainly McConnell voting, no.
I guess I just look at this, and I have to wonder, does anyone in the country feel more safe tonight with this news? And I'd have to think no, given the history of Pete Hegseth.
So, what this says to me, as a veteran, and a member of the Armed Forces Committee in the House, is that we are going to have to work overtime, to make sure that we are continuing to push in on innovation, making sure the appropriations and procurement processes work well, because these are not areas that I think Pete Hegseth has any sort of experience in.
We heard one of your commentators say before, he was going to be a disrupter? I just don't see how that's possible, because I don't think he has the history of running organizations well, especially an organization as difficult as the Pentagon.
So, I think, this puts a lot of impetus on our House Armed Services Committee, the Senate Armed Services Committee, to really perform the oversight, and push in here, to continue to move our military forward.
COLLINS: Are you saying that you think this decision will ultimately backfire on Senate Republicans?
SHERRILL: I just, as I look at this, I don't see how Pete Hegseth, and this history, can gain the respect of our military, and can continue to move our military forward. I think, at this point, it's really difficult.
I have questioned admirals and generals at hearings. I've been in what we call SCIFs and secret meetings with them, to try to push them, to innovate, to get a better procurement process going. And it's a constant battle, as you have the entrenchment of the Pentagon, and you're pushing for change.
I don't know that, given his background, he has the ability to do what we need our Pentagon to do, to innovate, to make sure we have the munitions in place, to protect our country, to make sure that we're continuing the denial of certain areas, the passage of ships through some of the strategic chokepoints, to continue to show that U.S. ships can pass through there.
Is he going to be able to run an organization like this? I don't think people feel he has those skills. So, that's why we're going to have to make sure that on the House Armed Services Committee, we're pushing forward. We're continuing to do this work. And at the end of the day, continuing to make sure that we hold Pete Hegseth accountable, for the things that he stated that he's changed his mind on--
COLLINS: Yes.
SHERRILL: --within the military, for example. Well, I certainly hope so, because the Chief of Naval Operations is a woman, right now.
COLLINS: One we're watching, right now, seeing Senator McConnell there, standing not far from Senator Tuberville, who's been a fervent backer of Pete Hegseth's.
When you look at this, and you're watching how this vote is playing out, as they are all waiting on Vice President Vance, who has just arrived on the Hill, to come in and break that tie. What does it say to you about Democrats' strategy here, on these nominees?
I mean, if Republicans remain united, Trump is going to get all of his nominees. And only these three say no? Trump could theoretically get all of his nominees confirmed.
SHERRILL: Well, I think, Kaitlan, there's so much Democrats have to do, and the work that we have to do to push back against this.
You mentioned Tuberville. I mean, if there's somebody who held up all of the flag officer promotions, because he wanted to attack women seeking reproductive health care in our military. It just sort of defies logic, the type of people that are -- that are kind of beating our military up.
But there are those of us who are going to stand strong, who are going to make sure the men and women who serve, have the respect they deserve, have the tools they deserve, that our country is kept safe.
But it's part of the reason, quite frankly, right now I'm running for governor, because we need strong Democratic governors. We need executives in this country, who are going to push back against some of the bad policies, against some of the chaos that we see coming out of Washington, at this time.
COLLINS: Congresswoman Mikie Sherrill, thank you for joining us tonight.
And I should note, we are watching here--
SHERRILL: Thanks so much.
COLLINS: Thank you for that.
We are watching here, as Vice President, JD Vance, is there, as you can see him on the left side of your screen, he's just arrived, where he used to work not that long ago, and where he was casting votes not that long ago. This time, in his role as Vice President, which means he is the President of the Senate.
Let's listen in to see what he's going to say.
JD VANCE (R), U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: All right. Are there any senators in the chamber who wish to vote or change a vote?
If not, on this vote, the yeas are 50, and the nays are 50. The Senate being equally divided, the Vice President votes in the affirmative, and the nomination is confirmed.
(APPLAUSE)
[21:50:00]
COLLINS: And there it is, with that tie-breaking vote from Vice President, JD Vance, Pete Hegseth has been confirmed as the next Defense secretary of the United States. One of the closest votes that we have seen for Defense secretary in modern history, with Vance coming into break that tie.
And we are now hearing from Senator Mitch McConnell with his statement on why he voted no. Let's listen in to Senate Majority Leader, John Thune as well.
SEN. JOHN THUNE (R-SD): And laid upon the table and the President be immediately notified of the Senate's action. Further that the mandatory quorum call with respect to the Noem nomination be waived.
VANCE: Is there objection?
Without objection, the clerk will report the motion to invoke cloture.
CLERK: Cloture Motion. We, the undersigned Senators, in accordance with the provisions of Rule XXII of the Standing Rules of the Senate, do hereby move to bring to a close debate on the nomination of Kristi Noem of South Dakota to be Secretary of Homeland Security.
COLLINS: Our voting on Kristi Noem as the Department of Homeland Security Secretary. She's voting there.
My panel is here with me, of my White House insiders.
We are now getting Mitch McConnell's statement on why he was a no. Obviously, that's a very significant no vote. It is largely symbolic, because it didn't ultimately tank Pete Hegseth's nomination here. That's why JD Vance is sitting in that chair.
But in here, he says, as Shermichael was just defending Hegseth as a change agent. He says, Mere desire to be a change agent is not enough to fill these shoes, and no dust on boots fails even to distinguish this nominee from multiple predecessors of the last decade, nor does a precondition for the success. Secretaries with distinguished combat experience and a time in the trenches have also failed at this job.
He said that Pete Hegseth has failed as yet to demonstrate that he will pass this test. But as he assumes the office, the consequences of failure are as high as they have ever been.
DASHA BURNS, WHITE HOUSE BUREAU CHIEF, POLITICO: So, I've just been talking to a source in Hegseth world, a Hegseth adviser, and I asked him about that McConnell vote.
Here's what he said. He said, McConnell is a fraud. Spent his entire career as a leader talking about the team. As soon as he's out of leadership, the first thing he does is stab the team right in the back.
There were some expletives involved.
COLLINS: That's someone on Hegseth's team who said that?
BURNS: A Hegseth adviser. Expletives involved in this message, I can't say on CNN, by the way.
COLLINS: OK. We'll talk about that. We are cable. But we'll talk about that in a break. Standby, because I want to get your thoughts on this as well with what you're hearing from sources on this monumental vote, tonight. We are going to squeeze in a quick break. More in just a moment, as Pete Hegseth has just been confirmed as the next Defense secretary.
[21:55:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Back to our breaking news this hour, as the Senate that you're looking at here just voted to confirm Pete Hegseth as the next Defense secretary. It was a nail-biter, requiring Vice President, JD Vance, to come in and cast the tie-breaking vote, after three Republican senators opposed Hegseth, including Senator Mitch McConnell.
Moments ago, President Trump responded to reporters, saying, quote, I just heard that we won. Winning is what matters, right?
My fellow White House insiders are back.
And just looking at this moment for Trump. He's out traveling. He's been in North Carolina and Los Angeles. This was a huge test, obviously, of the willpower for Republicans, who maybe privately weren't sure that Pete Hegseth was the right pick for the job, but clearly felt that they ultimately needed to vote to confirm him.
SABRINA RODRIGUEZ, NATIONAL POLITICS REPORTER, THE WASHINGTON POST: Yes, this is a huge win for Trump. I mean, just as early as today, he, himself publicly, was expressing some level of doubt. He said, before he did his travel today, he said, I hope he makes it.
Which for Trump, who, for weeks, has been emboldened, excited about Pete Hegseth, feeling like, OK, those first weeks were a little shaky in the nomination, but then there was this momentum for Hegseth. I think today, it was really a OK, is this going to happen?
It was a nail-biter in many ways. But ultimately, Donald Trump, he said himself, Winning is what matters.
So, while we're going to be talking about the tie-breaking vote and how historic that is, in many ways, the fact that this is the second time that that happens for a cabinet nominee's confirmation. Trump is focused on, he got the guy he wanted in, and this is a win for him, and for his administration.
COLLINS: Well, and the question is, what does this say about what Mitch McConnell is willing to do on other nominees? Because there are the Tulsi Gabbards and the Kash Patels that are coming up. And there was a real question of whether or not McConnell would be willing to buck Trump on this, or if he would go along and vote to confirm him.
BURNS: Well, I think this also shows how much McConnell's influence has waned. It doesn't even seem like he tried to influence anyone. He just stood by what he believed here, right? But it's not what it used to be, where the way McConnell went, so went a whole lot of other folks. This was a very small group of senators, who decided to buck Trump. And ultimately, Trump and Hegseth world, that same adviser that was -- had the expletive-filled message to me, earlier, said, when I asked the view from Hegseth world, he said simply, Giddy.
COLLINS: And as they're giddy about this, I mean, this was a real point of nervousness for them. Evidence of the fact that Pete Hegseth himself was up on Capitol Hill, and has been -- that he was there for this tie-breaking vote. We don't normally see the nominees themselves up on the Hill.
But as Lauren Fox was reporting earlier, there was a time in December where his nomination was on really shaky ground. And he overcame that by sitting down and meeting with a lot of these senators. I mean, Manu was saying he spoke to Thom Tillis, who was up in the air, it seemed like earlier, for two hours today, to try to quiet the concerns that Republicans had about him.
RODRIGUEZ: Yes, in many ways, Hegseth has been unshakable. He's recognized that he needed to go directly to the senators, and kind of talk to them about their concerns, walk them through that.
But he also has recognized that much of this is a production, much of this is a show. And he has known from the beginning that he has an audience of Trump. And he needed Trump to stay on his side throughout this, to have Trump pushing for him to win, pushing for him to get confirmed.
And I think that played a role, too, at the end of the day. People understood that this is the guy that Trump wanted in this position, and he needed to get through.
[22:00:00]
COLLINS: Yes. And we'll see what this means for McConnell, going forward.
BURNS: Well, and let's not forget the pressure campaign on Joni Ernst.
COLLINS: Yes.
BURNS: I wonder if that's going to end up being a model for future problematic nominees.
COLLINS: Right, because she had been expressing some skepticism, and then there was an intense pressure campaign, even in her home state.
BURNS: That's right.
COLLINS: And she overcame that, and was pretty receptive to him.
Dasha Burns. Sabrina Rodriguez. Great to have you both here, tonight, for that breaking news.
Thank you all for joining us for the breaking news.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" is up next.
