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The Source with Kaitlan Collins

Sen. Murphy: Trump's Funding Freeze "Grossly Unconstitutional"; WH: "We Will Win" If DOJ Prosecutors Challenge Firings In Court; Caroline Kennedy: RFK Jr. "Preys" On Parents, "Hypocritically" Discouraging Vaccinations While Vaccinating His Own Kids. Aired 9-10p ET

Aired January 28, 2025 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


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That's it for us. The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST: Straight from THE SOURCE tonight.

A federal funding freeze, causing chaos and confusion, as a federal judge is slamming the brakes, but only for now. We'll speak with a Senate Democrat, who believes Trump's latest move is illegal.

Also, inside the White House, for the first briefing of Trump's second term, the first time it was Sean Spicer and crowd sizes. Today had a much different vibe. We'll take you inside the room.

And JFK's daughter, Caroline Kennedy warning that her cousin, RFK Jr. is a predator who is addicted, she says, to attention. This is all coming hours away from his first hearing on Capitol Hill.

I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.

Late tonight, a federal judge is pumping the brakes on a nationwide panic, a panic that was caused and sparked when the Trump administration, with little warning, turned off $3 trillion in federal assistance programs, with little guidance about what was affected, how it was affected, and where exactly the money would continue to flow.

For much of the day, what was an attempt by President Trump to root out the so-called woke ideology, in the federal government, looked more like national uncertainty. Americans wondering if they still had access to their health care. Seniors on strict budgets, unsure if they'd get their next meal from programs that provide them. And families in need, questioning whether or not they'd be able to keep the heat on.

The Trump administration's order, to freeze trillions of dollars in federal grants and loans, was sweeping, and it didn't really offer a lot of clarity. That's why many officials, nationwide, were wondering what the immediate impacts were.

Now, all of this came from the Office of Management and Budget. It's run by an acting Director right now, but will likely soon be run by one of the authors of Project 2025. That is where a plan was laid out in writing, with the, quote, "Many executive tools a courageous conservative president can use to handcuff the bureaucracy."

Now, the confusion prompted the White House to issue a memo clarifying what was not affected by this funding freeze that happened overnight. That includes Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid and SNAP.

Trump has said repeatedly that he won't touch Social Security or Medicare. But there were a lot of questions during that first White House briefing of the administration on this, and the legal backing behind such a move.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: On the freeze in federal funding. Who advised the President on the legality of telling government agencies that they don't have to spend money that was already appropriated by Congress?

KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Well, as the OMB memo states, this is certainly within the confines of the law. So, White House Counsel's Office believes that this is within the president's power to do it, and therefore he's doing it.

COLLINS: OK, so they disagree with lawmakers who say that they don't have the power to freeze this funding?

LEAVITT: Again, I would point you to the language in the memo that clearly states this is within the law.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Now, Trump officials insisted that Medicaid was not affected by this freeze. But there was so much confusion that there was a temporary outage with the portals through states, through which state Medicaid departments get their federal funding.

And tonight, programs from Head Start to Meals on Wheels are telling CNN, they're still not sure what this means for them.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think the uncertainty, the chaos that has happened since last evening, when we heard about this, has caused a lot of grave concern, on the part of older adults who rely on Meals on Wheels as a lifeline. (END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: And my congressional source tonight is Democratic senator of Connecticut, Chris Murphy.

And it's great to have you here, Senator.

This pause that the judge has put in place, on what the Trump administration has done here, is also only temporary. Goes until Monday. The White House was arguing to me today that this is, quote, Within the president's power to do it, and therefore he is doing it.

Do you believe that the action the Trump administration is taking here is illegal?

SEN. CHRIS MURPHY (D-CT): It's grossly unconstitutional. It is absolutely clear, based upon prior Supreme Court decisions, that the President cannot unilaterally suspend government programs, in order to impose his own priorities, and his own policy, on top of what was passed by Congress.

[21:05:00]

To me, this is inherently corrupt. What Trump is trying to do is seize control of government spending, so that he can send money to his friends, and to his loyalists, and he can punish states, for instance, like Connecticut, that are represented by his political opponents.

Obviously, today was a day of chaos. The Medicaid program was down. Head Start reimbursements were down. By the end of the day, they came back up.

But what he is trying to do is send a message that, If you don't line up with me and my political priorities, it's going to cost you and your state, money.

COLLINS: How is it affecting people in Connecticut? Because that was kind of how we were hearing that the portals for Medicaid were down, and that they expected them to come back up. But what did you hear from constituents today about this?

MURPHY: Well, what we heard today was that hospitals and doctors weren't getting paid.

Our Head Start programs, our preschool programs, in Connecticut, today, started to make plans to lay off employees, and consider shuttering their doors to kids, because they run in a way where they can't go more than a few days or a week without payment.

Our school systems that rely on federal dollars to pay for special education are, as we speak, making plans to potentially downsize the services that they offer kids in need, because they're not sure that those payments will be available to them for the rest of the school year.

So, the entire state is in crisis, right now, because so many of our young people, our vulnerable populations, rely on consistent federal funding. And all we know is that from here until Monday, they will continue to receive that money, and then all bets are off.

COLLINS: So when the White House argues, as they did today, that individuals who get assistance won't be directly affected, you say?

MURPHY: I mean, that's not what happened today. I mean, today, Medicaid, which is a payment program that is due to individuals who qualified, was suspended. And there is absolutely no guarantee that individuals, who are receiving veterans benefits, or housing benefits, are going to continue to receive those after Monday.

COLLINS: Yes, and of course, they say Medicaid is not affected. They were -- they are aware at the White House that the portals were down, which obviously speaks to the confusion that was caused by this coming out last night.

Some of your Republican colleagues were asked about this. What you just got out there, which is that this is Congress' power of the purse here, in allocating this funding. This is what some Republicans had to say about this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. ERIC SCHMITT (R-MO): I think it's appropriate to take a look at it, and make sure there isn't some nefarious actions.

SEN. MIKE ROUNDS (R-SD): I think that some of the areas that could be restricted if they are items that the Executive branch has the authority to issue or to look at.

SEN. TOMMY TUBERVILLE (R-AL): He's not halting. He's reviewing it. And in a certain amount of time, he's going to release it again. That's what he ran on.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Why do you think the Republicans, on Capitol Hill, were not bothered, or near as bothered as you are, by a very clear willingness by the White House to subvert Congress, when it comes to funding?

MURPHY: I think, for two reasons.

One, they're pretty confident that if Trump is in charge of what states get money, or what disasters get money, that their constituents in their states will be taken care of.

Two, this is also an exercise in withholding all of these payments, so that the President can reserve money to pay for his giant tax cut, mostly going to billionaires and corporations. So--

COLLINS: You think that's what he is doing here?

MURPHY: I think that's part of the rationale here, is trying to create a pretext, in which he can say, Hey, don't worry about how much I'm giving away in a corporate tax cut, or an elimination of the estate tax on the wealthiest billionaire families, because I saved a bunch of money by shutting down funding for elementary schools and middle schools in this country.

So for Republicans, their money probably still comes to their states, and they get to a little bit better argument that they have the money to pay for the billionaire and corporate tax cuts.

COLLINS: I think all states, right now, are affected by this, and the confusion of what this actually gets to.

But the Senate Majority Leader, John Thune, said that he doesn't think it's unusual for an administration to pause funding, and take a hard look, and scrub how these programs are being spent, and how they interact with the executive orders, Trump signed.

Is that how you see it? Or do you believe this is a highly unusual?

MURPHY: Well, it's not what I believe. It's just true. Never before in the history of the country has a president suspended, all at once, virtually every federal program and every foreign aid program, and also sent out an order to agencies that, If you see or suspect anyone inside your agency that isn't complying, you are to report them.

Inside USAID, yesterday, as you know, almost the entire senior leadership was dismissed, in an attempt to rid the agency of anybody that didn't share the very particular political priorities of the President. All of this is completely unprecedented.

COLLINS: Stephen Miller is the deputy Chief of Staff to the -- deputy adviser to Trump, the Homeland Security Adviser, when it comes to policy on the former (ph) there. He was on with Jake Tapper earlier, and he actually talked about these USAID employees. This is what he had to say.

[21:10:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEPHEN MILLER, WHITE HOUSE DEPUTY CHIEF OF STAFF: There's 2 million employees in the federal government. Overwhelmingly, the career federal service in this country is far-left, left-wing.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: I don't know -- I don't--

S. MILLER: The American people--

TAPPER: I don't know that to be a fact.

S. MILLER: Well, I'll give you a great example. We looked at USAID as an example. 98 percent--

TAPPER: That's--

S. MILLER: --98 percent of the workforce either donated to Kamala Harris, or another left-wing candidate. (END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: What is your reaction to a senior West Wing employee seeming to say that they are looking into the political affiliations of career government employees?

MURPHY: First of all, that's not true. 98 percent of employees at USAID did not donate to Kamala Harris. They are making a--

COLLINS: He said, Or a left-wing candidate, was his--

MURPHY: They are -- they are -- they are making up facts.

Yes, they have made no bones about it. They want to purge from government, people who just show up every day to implement the law and the Constitution.

The only qualification to Donald Trump, for you to serve in government, is if you pledge a loyalty oath to him, personally, and are willing to facilitate his corruption. He is trying to turn government into an enrichment vehicle for his billionaire friends. He wants to steal from ordinary people, in order to help his Mar-a-Lago crowd. And if you aren't interested in that agenda, then you can't work for the President of the United States.

All those people at USAID, they are not partisans. They are not political. They are just trying to implement a system of assistance, around the world, that protects U.S. interests.

COLLINS: Some people may ask, OK, everything you just laid out there, what are Democrats doing about it? House Democrats are having an emergency meeting, tomorrow, on Trump's federal funding freeze. But, I mean, it happened last night. We had today, with all the confusion.

Do you think that your party is responding to Trump in a way that is -- that works in your view?

MURPHY: Well, I think today has been a wake-up call. What we did in the Senate, today, was denied the Republicans the ability to proceed to any legislation that doesn't have to do with restoring this funding and ending this corruption.

I hope that my colleagues will view nominees through a different lens, right now. We have Lee Zeldin up for the EPA tomorrow. Whatever you think about Lee Zeldin, he is going to the EPA to implement a deeply corrupt and unconstitutional policy.

So, I hope the Democrats will take a harder line on legislation and on nominees, because our entreaties to the country, our arguments that this is a five-alarm fire, are not going to be taken as serious, unless we are using all the powers that we have available to us, to stop the implementation of this corrupt agenda inside the new administration.

COLLINS: And of course, Lee Zeldin would argue that point that you made about what he's going to do at the EPA. There is a question of these nominees. Some Democrats are trying to stall the vote for Russ Vought, who is Trump's pick to run the Office of Management and Budget, which handles all of this, when it comes to the trillions of dollars in federal funding. He worked primarily on Project 2025. He was questioned about it a lot in his briefing.

This pause today, and this idea that they can eliminate parts of federal funding that Trump does not believe fits with his agenda, does align with what you read of some in Project 2025. What do you make of that?

MURPHY: Trump said, during the campaign, I don't know anything about Project 2025, those people aren't going to have anything to do with my administration.

The people who are writing these executive orders are the people that constructed Project 2025. And what Project 2025 is, is an evisceration of democracy, so that the only people that serve in government are people that believe in deeply conservative ideas, and believe in preserving Donald Trump's political power.

So yes, you are seeing Project 2025 being put into effect, right now. And Russ Vought was one of the prime authors and pushers of that agenda.

COLLINS: Yes, he seems very likely to get confirmed.

Senator Chris Murphy, thank you for your time tonight.

MURPHY: Thanks, Kaitlan.

COLLINS: Up next. Another dimension on the Trump second-term strategy, testing the boundaries of the law. Nixon's White House Counsel, and a former Trump White House Communications Director, are my sources next.

Also tonight, Caroline Kennedy is calling her cousin, RFK Jr., a predator. Hear the former Ambassador, in her own words, describe how he put animals into a blender.

[21:15:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: It's week two, and there already seems to be a pattern to President Trump's second-term strategy. Wield executive power far and wide, at any cost, and deal with the consequences and possibly the law, later.

Look no further than the firing of the career Justice Department prosecutors, who previously investigated Trump. This is something I asked the White House press secretary, Karoline Leavitt, about, during the first briefing, earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: As you know, they are career prosecutors, therefore they are afforded civil service protections. How is the administration deciding which laws to follow and which ones to ignore?

LEAVITT: So, it is the belief of this White House, and the White House Counsel's Office, that the President was within his executive authority to do that. He is the executive of the executive branch, and therefore he has the power to fire anyone within the executive branch that he wishes to.

COLLINS: So, you're confident that if they bring lawsuits against you, the prosecutors who were fired, that they will succeed?

LEAVITT: We will win in court, yes.

COLLINS: And did he personally direct this, given they've worked on the classified documents investigation and the election interference investigation?

LEAVITT: This was a memo that went out by the Presidential Personnel Office. And the President is the leader of this White House. So yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[21:20:00]

COLLINS: My White House sources tonight are:

Alyssa Farah Griffin, a former White House Communications Director in the first administration.

And John Dean, the former White House counsel to President Nixon.

John Dean, let me start with you.

Because I just wonder. First, she said that it was President Trump's directive to fire those prosecutors who investigated him. That stands in contrast to what a Justice Department official told CNN yesterday, and Katelyn Polantz, which is that the acting A.G. made this decision.

But putting that aside, what do you make of the confidence level that the White House has, that Trump can fire people who have civil service protections, or these career prosecutors, or the inspectors general, without that 30-day notification to Congress that is legally required?

JOHN DEAN, FORMER NIXON WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: I think they're clearly testing the law. They're taking very aggressive action, very early, so they know where they stand with the courts, because it's going to take a while for this to process through the courts.

But I think this is a test to see what his authority might be. And I think he's going to be pulled back by the courts. The big question is, will he follow the court orders?

COLLINS: That is a big question.

Alyssa, you worked for him in the first administration. What is your view of whether or not he'll follow the court orders, and also just how they're operating in the last eight days compared to eight years ago?

ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, listen, Trump's doing what he telegraphed on the campaign that he was going to do, basically to the word that he had promised.

And I think they're going with a very broad interpretation of the powers of the American presidency. And he is willing to push the limits and test the limits. I think he still has a lot of frustration from the first term, where he felt like he was often thwarted by what he would call no name, faceless bureaucrats within -- or the Deep State, within the federal government.

He wants to try to get as much of his agenda through, before the midterms. And that means having loyalists in place, and also taking out actors that he thinks are going to work against his agenda.

And one item that I found very interesting was this OPM memo that went out today to basically all federal employees, giving them the option to resign if they don't want to come back to in-person work.

It seems like actually a fairly brilliant workaround to what Trump was wanting to do with Schedule F, which would basically change all federal employees to be fire at will, like political appointees. This actually kind of puts the onus on the employee to decide to step aside, if they're not going to meet some of these new standards.

So, it really is a wholesale remaking of the federal government in the image of Trump, staffed with loyalists to Donald Trump.

COLLINS: Yes, John Dean, on that. This is something that came out tonight that Alyssa is referencing there. It's roughly to 2 million federal employees. And it's basically saying that if they choose to resign, instead of staying on, obviously, as the administration acknowledges, it's harder to fire them, that basically they would get paid through September if they do so.

How do you view? Kind of like, it's a buyout being offered to federal employees here.

DEAN: What they've done, apparently, is they're giving them administrative leave during that eight-month period, so they're paid. There's no penalty. They're not being fired. Keeps their record in good shape. They can work at home if they want to. Many of them are now being called back. And that is raised -- this is a way to avoid that, if they don't want to come back into the office.

So, it is a workaround, and it is clever. I'm not sure it's legal. I don't think you can put another name on something, and it totally escaped the law. Again, I suspect this will be tested as well, Kaitlan.

COLLINS: Alyssa, do you see, just from your experience working. I mean, the person who has the job that you had, I should note, was in the White House briefing room today, sitting in those chairs alongside, as Karoline Leavitt was taking questions from reporters. But just from your vantage point, do you see Trump doing things, this time around, that he either was talked out of doing the first time or advised against?

FARAH GRIFFIN: Yes, I think, listen, the gloves are off with Trump.

I think that the first time, there was a learning curve when he came into office. There was just figuring out the mechanics of the federal government. It was also working within a system that he didn't fully understand, didn't have total control over.

And he's kind of been in this White House, and waiting at Mar-a-Lago for the last four years, where he's been deciding on priorities that he wants to emphasize, what executive orders he wants to do, how he wants to work within the system, and maybe at times around the system, to get things done. And he's coming in far, far smarter and more capable of implementing his agenda than before.

Just the -- just the sheer volume of what he's done in basically a week and a half in office is remarkable, like, by any standard. Sure there have been some messes and some cleanup needed. But I mean, the sheer number of executive orders and actions taken, the outreach to foreign leaders, to me, it does seem like he's much smarter at doing this, and he's much more focused on getting his agenda through quickly.

COLLINS: Yes. Though John seems to think that it's going to be stymied by the courts. We will see what happens.

John Dean. Alyssa Farah Griffin. Great to have you both, joining us here tonight.

DEAN: Thank you.

[21:25:00]

COLLINS: Up next. A scathing letter from Caroline Kennedy to senators today, telling them not to confirm her cousin, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Her assessment of his character and her disturbing allegation, involving a blender and baby chickens.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: Tonight, as Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is preparing for what could be an explosive confirmation hearing, to be the nation's next Health secretary, his own cousin is publicly urging lawmakers to reject him.

[21:30:00]

It's a scathing letter to senators today, that was sent by Caroline Kennedy, who is JFK's daughter, detailing why she says RFK Jr. is not only woefully unqualified, but also dangerous.

Caroline Kennedy, who has served as the Ambassador to Japan and to Australia, and rarely makes waves publicly in this manner, punctuated her letter by reading it, out loud, for these senators, and for the country, to hear it in her own voice.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CAROLINE KENNEDY, FORMER UNITED STATES AMBASSADOR TO AUSTRALIA: I've known Bobby my whole life. We grew up together. It's no surprise that he keeps birds of prey as pets, because Bobby himself is a predator.

I watched his younger brothers and cousins follow him down the path of drug addiction. His basement, his garage, his dorm room were always the center of the action, where drugs were available, and he enjoyed showing off how he put baby chickens and mice in a blender to feed to his hawks. It was often a perverse scene of despair and violence.

Bobby was able to pull himself out of illness and disease. I admire the discipline that took, and the continuing commitment it requires. But siblings and cousins who Bobby encouraged down the path of substance abuse, suffered addiction, illness and death, while Bobby has gone on to misrepresent, lie and cheat his way through life.

Today, while he may encourage a younger generation to attend AA meetings, Bobby is addicted to attention and power. Bobby preys on the desperation of parents of sick children, vaccinating his own kids while building a following hypocritically discouraging other parents from vaccinating theirs.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: My political sources are here at the table with me.

Maria Cardona, I mean, that's a searing indictment.

MARIA CARDONA, AMERICAN STRATEGIST AND COMMENTATOR: Yes.

COLLINS: And she kind of says, I don't often come out and say things like this, because of my family--

CARDONA: Right.

COLLINS: --and because I don't want to be talking about them.

But she felt the need to do this, hours before he goes up on the Hill, tomorrow morning.

CARDONA: It's scathing. And it is, when you hear it, it is very jarring.

And I think that if Democrats do their job well, they could turn that into a massive movement, to put phone calls into senators, to keep him from being confirmed. Because really, that's the only way to do it. And I think that's exactly what they have to do.

Looking at what HHS does, and looking at what RFK Jr. has said and done in the past that makes him dangerous for this position, you have a lot of constituencies that could be motivated and activated to put those calls into those senators. You have moms. I mean, clearly, there's a lot more mothers and families, who vaccinate their children than don't. They can be motivated.

You have a lot of older people. There's millions of older Americans, who will be affected by the lack of qualifications of somebody like RFK Jr., people who depend on Medicaid, Medicare, the -- you know, all of the medications that he's going to be in charge of.

COLLINS: Yes.

CARDONA: And then families who depend on safe food. All of us depend on that, right?

So, I think it's going to depend on how Democrats make sure that not just what she has said goes viral, but that all of the constituencies that will be affected, by his lack of qualifications, get them to make those phone calls.

COLLINS: Yes, and she was saying, not only is he unqualified. She was really also just talking about his character, and going after it in that way, from a personal experience perspective.

SARAH MATTHEWS, FORMER DEPUTY PRESS SECRETARY, TRUMP ADMINISTRATION: Yes, this kind of feels like a Hail Mary on her part.

It seems like she sees the writing on the wall that these Republican senators probably are going to confirm him. We saw with Pete Hegseth that there were issues with his character, and coming into question. And Republican senators, a majority of them, still chose to confirm him. And so, I think she sees that this is a last-ditch effort for her to go out there and kind of say her piece.

Because I think when he was running for president, she knew it was a long shot. She knew that he probably wasn't going to get anywhere with his presidential run, and so it wouldn't be that he would be in a position of power. But now she sees that it's very real that he could be confirmed as the head of HHS.

COLLINS: Nicole Shanahan was his running mate when he was running to be president. She is the former wife of the founder of Google. She has a lot of money, and has used that for political purposes, I mean, not only for their race, but also for -- to defeat senators in key races in the U.S.

She just put out a video, a few moments ago, basically warning anyone who is considering voting against RFK Jr.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NICOLE SHANAHAN, ATTORNEY: Please know, I will be watching your votes very closely.

While Bobby may be willing to play nice, I won't. If you vote against him, I will personally fund challengers to primary you, in your next election. And I will enlist hundreds of thousands to join me. (END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: How do Republican senators hear something like -- any senators hear something like that, I guess I should say?

[21:35:00]

KEVIN MADDEN, CAMPAIGN ADVISER, MITT ROMNEY 2008 & 2012 CAMPAIGNS: Well, I think, Republican senators aren't necessarily worried about Nicole Shanahan. I think they're much worried -- more worried about the MAGA Inc. that has been very effective at playing an outside-in game, in supporting the President's nominees.

I agree with Maria. It's searing. It's scathing. But what we heard today from Caroline Kennedy is late, and it's very personal.

When we were just here the other night, you were interviewing Rahm Emanuel. Rahm Emanuel said, Forget about the personal, make it about the substance.

And this is very personal, in a way that I think gets lost on a lot of folks out there, and isn't going to really generate the sort of grassroots, like voices of people calling in Democrat senators.

And here's the other thing. Democratic senators aren't necessarily going to be the ones that need to be swung here. There's a group of maybe Republican voters, that you could peel--

CARDONA: Right.

MADDEN: --Republican senators that you could peel off. And I don't think anything that Caroline Kennedy said today is going to change that, right now.

CARDONA: So--

COLLINS: He's going in front of the Senate Finance Committee, tomorrow. Then he's got to go in front of the Senate Health Committee, which is chaired by a doctor, I should note, who is a Republican.

CARDONA: Yes.

COLLINS: But, I mean, on the substance issues beyond talking about putting animals in a blender for people to watch, to feed his hawks. I mean, there are going to be questions that we've even heard from Senate Republicans, privately, that they have.

CARDONA: Yes, and I think that's where we're going to really tell how much of the -- how much the worry is within the Republican senators, in terms of, is it going to go to the threshold of them voting against RFK Jr.? I mean, we've already seen that the appetite for going up against Donald Trump is not big within Republicans, right?

Now, I'm going to be interested to see what Senator McConnell does, right, on this whole vaccination thing. I think he's going to be somewhat -- he voted against Hegseth. Good for him. Think he's found his spine. He's not running for reelection, so he's not really beholden to anyone. I think he could be one of the ones that votes against him. But they have to get three more, right?

MATTHEWS: Yes. And--

CARDONA: And that's not going to be an easy feat.

MATTHEWS: They certainly do. And I think the -- obviously, the vaccination is one big issue too.

But also something that's been really striking to me is how pro- abortion he is, and how that, there has not been a lot of talk about that, not a lot of pushback from Republicans or these grassroots organizations. I mean, you saw from Mike Pence's group, they came out against him.

CARDONA: Yes, that was interesting.

MATTHEWS: Which I thought, I agreed with.

Because, look, Trump is someone who champions on being the most pro- life president ever. And then we're putting up a nominee for HHS, someone who was, for most of his career, supportive of abortion, up until the nine-month mark.

So, it's things like that where I also have issues with his candidacy. I mean, even just all the conspiracies he thread about -- spread about COVID, he said that Ashkenazi Jews and the Chinese were the most immune.

COLLINS: Yes.

MATTHEWS: So, I hope that those are questions that get brought up at the hearings as well.

CARDONA: Yes.

COLLINS: I assume they will be. We will be watching, starting tomorrow morning. Many more hearings to come. Thank you, everybody.

Up next. It is a time-honored tradition that kicked off inside the West Wing today, with a new twist. All the behind-the-scenes details with my White House insiders on this briefing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Karoline Leavitt's first briefing as Donald Trump's White House Press Secretary in his second term. It was a packed house inside the Briefing Room. People were standing alongside the walls that you see here, because there were so many people in there, after those briefings were essentially must-see television during the first Trump term.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[21:40:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: Tonight, we're taking you behind-the-scenes of the first White House press briefing of President Trump's second term. I was there, as press secretary, Karoline Leavitt, was pressed by reporters for details on the dizzying level of activity we've seen coming out of the White House, over the last eight days.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Who advised the President on the legality of telling government agencies that they don't have to spend money that was already appropriated by Congress?

LEAVITT: Well, as the OMB memo states, this is certainly within the confines of the law.

ZEKE MILLER, CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, THE ASSOCIATED PRESS: How does that uncertainty service the President's voters?

LEAVITT: Well, I think there's only uncertainty in this room amongst the media. There's no uncertainty in this building.

ISAAC ARNSDORF, SENIOR WHITE HOUSE REPORTER, THE WASHINGTON POST: Could you clarify what the military's role was, where the water came from, and how it got there?

LEAVITT: Again, the Army Corps of Engineers has been on the ground, in California, to respond to the devastation from these wildfires.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: My White House insiders tonight are:

Isaac Arnsdorf, Senior White House Reporter at The Washington Post, that you just saw there.

And Jeff Zeleny, CNN's Chief National Affairs Correspondent.

And Isaac, that question that you just asked. That was because Trump posted last night that the military had gone into California. But today, the Pentagon could not even offer any clarity, or comment, on that, of what exactly it was that he was talking about.

ARNSDORF: Well, we did shake an answer loose from the State of California that said there were these Army Corps of Engineer. They were -- they were -- the reservoirs that were controlled by the Army Corps of Engineers, that were shut down for maintenance, not related to the fire, then they turned those back on.

But this is not -- there's nothing like the valve that Trump was describing, where the military invaded California, and moved a bunch of water to L.A. That just isn't a thing.

COLLINS: Jeff, there are always questions for every press secretary, of every president, of every party, and many of them during -- about details of what they're carrying out.

But as someone who has covered President Trump, and President Biden, and President Obama, and Trump round one, what were your takeaways from the briefing today?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Look, I mean, it always starts with the press secretary being asked, usually by the Associated Press reporter, Will you tell the truth in here, and as your obligation to the truth to the American people or to the President? And that was similar.

[21:45:00]

I was struck by just the size of it, I mean. And at the very beginning of this, the White House press secretary, Karoline Leavitt, made very clear that there is a shift underway in media, which she's right about that, obviously. But she was derisive toward legacy media, easy target, I would say.

But otherwise, it felt pretty normal. And I thought, for a 27-year-old White House press secretary, she was remarkably fluid on issues. But look, similar to the campaign, and to her multiple interviews on Fox and other places, I mean, it required a fact-check.

So, I'm not sure how much information will come from these briefings, in terms of, like, the depth of congressional relations and legislation. But I thought, in terms of an opening ground, I thought it was -- it was pretty decent.

COLLINS: Yes, for all the questions over the last two months, since Trump won, and whether they'd removed the White House briefing entirely, or try to put another building. The change was that they had new media, two reporters, who were sitting alongside in those seats. Those are actually controlled by the White House. Reporters don't typically sit in those seats. But they had them ask questions first.

And then they went to the Associated Press, which is typically the first question of any briefing of any administration, usually.

ARNSDORF: Well, and one of the two new media faces, quote-unquote, was Mike Allen, who a lot of people know is probably like the most Washington insider stalwart you can get.

COLLINS: Yes, we love Mike Allen.

ARNSDORF: Yes.

COLLINS: And he has been around Washington, and excellent at covering.

Jeff, you've been talking and doing some reporting, tonight, on what we were talking about earlier, on the buyouts from the -- that is being offered to federal career employees, tonight, kind of as a way, it seems, to get around having to attempt to fire them, which is very difficult to do. And instead, offering them these buyouts.

But there are striking similarities between that, and something that Elon Musk has emailed out before.

ZELENY: It's really interesting. And we know that Elon Musk has been really focused on, through his Government Efficiency project, of these buyouts, and shrinking the workforce. He talked about it a lot on the campaign trail.

But there was something on the top of the subject line of the email that was sent out to everyone to, the blast, it said, a Fork in the Road.

You can see that right there.

ARNSDORF: Yes.

COLLINS: That's what went out today?

ZELENY: Right, this went out this afternoon to every federal employee.

Well, turns out that's the exact same language he sent to his employees out at Twitter, in 2022, when he was trying to urge them to leave as well. You can see that right there, Fork in the Road. So, just a small thing.

But our reporting shows that he's been deeply involved with the Office of Personnel Management, which, of course, is taking a lead on all of these things. So, this is going to be just an ongoing story, how much Elon Musk is involved in. We know his hands are in many, many things. But the Government Efficiency thing is at the heart of all this.

The question is, how much of all this is legal, and how many people are actually going to leave the workforce because of this. Some have been fired. This is going to be as much of a legal beat as a White House beat.

COLLINS: Yes, we saw that a lot today. So many of the questions were about what they legally can do.

On Elon Musk, I will say, when Karoline Leavitt talked about DOGE today, in this effort, she referred to as President Trump's effort, which, obviously he's the leader of the government, and it is. I didn't hear Elon Musk mentioned, though, as she was -- she was talking about those initiatives, and that effort, as it's very clearly been he who has gotten a lot of the attention for this effort.

ARNSDORF: She did go out of her way to include DOGE with OMB, as part of what was identifying these programs that they were trying to cut.

And I want to note on the buyout -- I mean, you've got the federal employee unions already coming out and saying, Wait a minute, not so fast. Be careful what you're signing here. Because it doesn't offer -- the only thing it offers is that you don't have to return to office. It doesn't really say that you don't have to do your job anymore, and will get paid until September.

COLLINS: So, there's still a lot of questions about whether or not -- the validity of this essentially. ARNSDORF: What you're actually signing up for, and how it's enforceable.

COLLINS: Isaac--

ZELENY: And you have to sign up by next week, like, that's a thing as well. Not a lot of time to think about it.

COLLINS: Yes. All right, we'll see what happens here.

Isaac Arnsdorf. Jeff Zeleny. Great to have you both, on set, tonight.

ZELENY: Thanks.

COLLINS: My next source tonight is an active-duty Navy commander who is transgender. What is her view on the executive order by Trump, banning transgender service members? And also, what is her response to Congressman Dan Crenshaw, who said that he believes transgender military members are, quote, Not fit to serve.

[21:50:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: Some breaking news for you this hour, as an armed man was arrested at the Capitol. And according to a court filing, he told police, yesterday, that he wanted to murder the newly-confirmed Defense secretary, the Treasury secretary, and the House Speaker.

Capitol Police say that this 24-year-old from Massachusetts had a knife, a lighter, and two homemade fire bombs when he surrendered. We'll keep you updated, as we learn more about that story.

Also, here in Washington, tonight, we are hearing from a major veterans group, criticizing President Trump's ban on transgender troops from serving in the military. The CEO of Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America says that the President's order tells service members, their sacrifice is not valued.

Last night, we spoke to Republican congressman, Dan Crenshaw, about this, and he argued also that he believes transgender people are not fit to serve.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. DAN CRENSHAW (R-TX): I'm saying, by definition, if you -- if you have transitioned into a different gender, you are not meeting our medical standards. There's -- you're creating--

COLLINS: Right. But that's your opinion.

[21:55:00]

CRENSHAW: No, it's not an opinion.

And again, there's a-- COLLINS: But then how are there trans people serving in the military, right now?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Tonight, the President's latest ban is being challenged in a court, in a lawsuit that was brought by six transgender service members, and two transgender individuals who wanted to enlist.

My source on this tonight is the U.S. Navy Commander, Emily Shilling, who has done two tours of duty in Iraq and Afghanistan as a Navy pilot, was awarded three Air Medals, and an award for superior airmanship as well. She transitioned years ago, and has since been promoted with merit. She's also the President of SPARTA, which is an advocacy organization made of transgender troops.

And I want to thank you so much for being here.

Just this order that came out, and we finally got to read the text of it, this morning. You have almost two decades in your naval career. What is your view of this?

CMDR. EMILY SHILLING, U.S. NAVY, PRESIDENT OF SPARTA: Well, it hit me kind of hard. I have dedicated about 19 and a half years of service. It was my dream to join and fly for the Navy, since I was little.

I did the two tours in Iraq and Afghanistan, 60 combat missions. I got a lot of value at it, and a lot of self -- you know, self-identity out of it. Later, I went on to be a test pilot, and then the meritorious promotions. I have been at the pinnacle of naval aviation. I think I'm proof, standing here, that we are qualified to serve.

COLLINS: And when you see this, and the language of it. I was reading through this, because the Congressman and I were kind of going back and forth on this, last night.

And it says that, quote, an "Adoption of a gender identity inconsistent with an individual's sex conflicts with a soldier's commitment to an honorable, truthful, and disciplined lifestyle, even in one's personal life."

What is it like for you to hear those words?

SHILLING: First off, all I want to do is keep serving. I've done that almost 20 years. I want to keep going. I have no desire to get out.

And the feedback that I've had from prior to transition to after is that it's made me actually a better leader, able to connect with my people more, and in a more authentic way, because I can meet them wherever they are.

COLLINS: And so, when you hear this idea that, because you've gone through that, that you are not fit to serve, as the Congressman was stating, saying that though -- that you wouldn't be able to be up to the standards? I mean, you know what the standards are, and what those requirements are, and what that requires from you. What is your response to that?

SHILLING: Yes, Kaitlan, there's a lot of disinformation out there, and a lot of talking points on it.

But I'm one of the first naval aviators to regain my flight clearance, post-transition. And what that means is the Navy was rightfully medically conservative. I'm going to go fly a $100 million aircraft, the F-18, like you saw in "Top Gun 2." So, they ran me through every psychological evaluation, every physical evaluation they could think of. And at the end of the day, there was no reason to keep me out of the cockpit.

We see this with all of the troops that are deployed across the world today, already embedded in combat units. We have lawyers, doctors, Special Forces, Rangers, and they're all there today. If we yank them out, it leaves critical holes that are going to take decades to fill.

COLLINS: So, we dug in on this with the Congressman. I want you to listen to what he said about that exactly, and the test that you do go through.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CRENSHAW: I know what war is like, and I know what it takes to deploy. I was not allowed to deploy for vision issues.

Now, what if you need to be on a bunch of medications, and your -- and your entire body has been -- has been changed radically into another gender? It makes it very difficult to deploy you into the places that we need to deploy you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: You're basically arguing, you're proof that they're wrong?

SHILLING: I am proof. My total med downtime, as they put it, was about a month. That's in line with somebody, who has minor knee surgery. We have individuals, who go through as much a transition as they want without ever being down. It's really just bad gouge.

COLLINS: And we've heard from people like the new Secretary of Defense, Pete Hegseth, talk about recruitment, and how they need to improve, and how the numbers are down, and they're trying to appeal to people.

So, what does it say, when an order like this comes out, saying, Even if you want to serve, we're saying you can't? At a time, when we're saying we're also at low levels of recruitment.

SHILLING: Yes. So, the executive order actually just asked the SecDef to generate new policy. And if you read his most recent memo to the troops, the last line says that he supports all members and all families of the armed forces. I hope he stands by those words.

COLLINS: What would you -- I mean, if you could see Defense secretary, Hegseth, and talk about your own service, and what you've been through. He also served. What would you say?

SHILLING: I think that would be a really wonderful conversation. I would welcome it. When people get to know somebody who's transgender, we're able to kind of change the narrative. I think there's a lot of misconception of what it's like to live in my shoes, or live in my boots, as it was.

COLLINS: Commander, it was so great to have you on. Thank you for coming on and sharing that perspective, following that interview, last night.

SHILLING: Thank you so much.

COLLINS: I really appreciate it.

[22:00:00]

And thank you all so much for joining us.

"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" is up next.

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST, CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP: Tonight.

He came in like a wrecking ball.