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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Sen. Warren Grills RFK Jr. On Money From Vaccine Lawsuits: "Kids Might Die, But Robert Kennedy Can Keep Cashing In"; WH Backpedals On Chaotic Funding Freeze Hours After Announcing It; FAA: Passenger Jet Collided In Midair With Black Hawk Helicopter. Aired 9- 10p ET
Aired January 29, 2025 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: But also to how so many of these foreigners seem to be being deployed to the hotspots of the frontline, to urgently make up holes in Ukraine's manpower -- startling shortages in infantry, we constantly hear about. And that's, really, I think, playing to Russia's advantage here, Anderson.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: All right. Nick Paton Walsh, be careful. Thank you.
That's it for us. The news continues. We'll see you, tomorrow. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Straight from THE SOURCE tonight.
Democrats unloading on Robert F. Kennedy Jr., as he fights to the nation -- to become the nation's top public health official. Vaccines, chronic disease and conspiracies all came up. But perhaps the most explosive moment happened when my lead source, tonight, Senator Elizabeth Warren, had the mic.
Also, Trump's latest directive for his cabinet, sending 30,000 migrants to Guantanamo. We asked his top immigration officials how, and when, this would work, and when could that happen.
And check your sources, as President Trump says, the U.S. spent $50 million on condoms in Gaza. Our lead fact-checker is very skeptical, and he'll tell us why.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
It was a dramatic day on Capitol Hill, to say the least, for President Trump's Health secretary nominee, as Robert F. Kennedy Jr. faced off with Democrats in his first of two confirmation hearings.
It was about as contentious as you might have thought, with the senators on the Finance Committee questioning the former Democratic presidential candidate turned MAGA mainstay, on his long history of spreading discredited theories about vaccines.
But before they did, he sought to dispel any notion that he's anti- vax.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR., PRESIDENT TRUMP'S PICK FOR SECRETARY OF THE DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES: News reports have claimed that I'm anti-vaccine or anti-industry. I am neither.
I believe that my -- that vaccines play a critical role in health care. All of my kids are vaccinated.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I should note, that was actually the point that his cousin, Caroline Kennedy, made, when she urged senators to reject him, basically arguing that he's a hypocrite.
Kennedy also has a long record of public statements and actions, where he has criticized safe and effective vaccines, including just this past summer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KENNEDY JR.: There's no vaccine that is, you know, safe and effective.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: The top Democrat on the committee today, Ron Wyden of Oregon, invoked Kennedy's own words, during his questions.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. RON WYDEN (D-OR): So, are you lying to Congress today, when you say you are pro-vaccine, or did you lie on all those podcasts?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: And then there was Senator Michael Bennet, a Democrat from Colorado, who went through a list of Kennedy's past conspiratorial rhetoric, including this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. MICHAEL BENNET (D-CO): Did you say that exposure to pesticides causes children to become transgender?
KENNEDY JR.: No, I never said that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Bennet noted that the record indicates otherwise.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KENNEDY JR.: The capacity for these chemicals that we are just raining down on our children right now to induce these very profound sexual changes in them is something we need to be thinking about as a society.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Senator Bennet also pressed Trump's nominee, on another conspiracy that he's advocated. This time, involving the military.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BENNET: Did you say Lyme disease is a highly likely militarily- engineered bioweapon?
KENNEDY JR.: I probably did say that.
BENNET: Did you say that--
KENNEDY JR.: And that's what the developer of Lyme disease said.
BENNET: OK. I want all of our colleagues to hear, Mr. Kennedy. I want them to hear it. You said yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now, those are all Democrats on the committee that you just heard from.
Kennedy did get a lot of support from Republicans on the committee, even as some of them questioned him, from the right, on abortion and his changing stance on that. But mostly, they seemed satisfied by his answers. And Republicans generally were largely complimentary.
Kennedy also got applause from supporters, who were in the gallery, when he mentioned how passionate he is about fighting chronic disease.
But the moments that really stood out came during those clashes with Democrats today, including my first source tonight, Senator Elizabeth Warren, pressing Kennedy on whether he pledged not to benefit from suing drug companies, in his personal capacity as an attorney, either while in office, or for four years after.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D-MA): And for all of his talk about follow the science and his promise that he won't interfere with those of us who want to vaccinate his kids, the bottom line is the same. Kennedy can kill off access to vaccines and make millions of dollars while he does it. Kids might die, but Robert Kennedy can keep cashing in.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: And I'm joined now, as promised, by the senator you saw there. Massachusetts senator, Elizabeth Warren.
What were your takeaways from today?
[21:05:00] WARREN: Well, it's that Robert Kennedy intends to keep on making money from his anti-vax stand. Whether it's making money, he's made it with the onesies that we saw. But it's principally participating in these lawsuits.
And the reason this is important, is that the Secretary of Health and Human Services has a lot of ways to readjust what the environment is like for vaccines. So, they can change what the labeling is that's required. He can promote his anti-vax theories. Only he can do it on government letterhead now.
So, I read a whole list of things that the Secretary of HHS can do. And what that can do is affect the value of these lawsuits. So, it can make some lawsuits that would otherwise lose, win. It can make a little return into a great big return.
And Robert Kennedy gets a piece of the action out of every one of those lawsuits. That means that he has an incentive, when he is Secretary of HHS, to do all the little things to make those lawsuits work better for him, and worse for the manufacturers of vaccines.
COLLINS: And he never ultimately committed to what you asked him.
WARREN: No. I asked, over and over, I said, All I'm asking for is say that you will not take any money. You can go do what you want. But you--
COLLINS: You weren't saying he shouldn't sue the vaccine companies--
WARREN: No.
COLLINS: --or the drug companies.
WARREN: I said, You can sue anybody you want when you're a private citizen, but you won't be taking money from these other lawsuits.
He, right now, he has an arrangement with a law firm. He goes out and he advertises in social media and commercials. And if these lawsuits go through and win, he gets 10 percent of the take. That is the deal. And it's been disclosed. It's in his financial disclosures. So somebody gets a $10 million payoff? Robert Kennedy gets $1 million, right off the top.
What I said is, Just agree you won't do that while you are Secretary, and have your hands on the controls, and you won't do it for four years after, just the money part of it. He refused.
COLLINS: Well, and to be clear, you weren't picking on him, in terms of the conflicts of interests. You've asked other Trump nominees about this--
WARREN: Oh, no.
COLLINS: --including Pete Hegseth, as his hearing for the Pentagon nominee, and for Howard Lutnick as the Commerce nominee.
WARREN: Yes.
COLLINS: I mean, this is a question, where you've essentially asked all of them about where they could have conflicts of interest, going forward. Has a single one of them committed to your request not to work or lobby for the industry, after they left office?
WARREN: No, they have not.
And I want to be clear here, Kaitlan. You're right, I have asked the other Republicans. But I've been doing this for a long time. I asked Biden's nominees, many of them the same question.
And for example, Secretary of Defense said yes, he would agree that he would not -- he would not take this on. The last person, who headed up the FDA, said he would not lobby or work for any of the pharmaceutical companies, afterwards, for a four-year period.
So, I haven't always been successful, but I have asked repeatedly for Democrats and Republicans to make this pledge.
COLLINS: Yes, because McDonough and Granholm, two secretaries under Biden, they did not -- they retained their consulting firms--
WARREN: Yes.
COLLINS: --while they were in office. You still voted for them.
What would you say to someone, who looks at how you questioned RFK Jr., today, or the other Trump nominees, but you still voted for the Biden nominees on that matter?
WARREN: Look, I have been pressing the issue of ethics. What I want to see is, I want us to change the law. And I've been asking Democrats and Republicans, in the Senate and the House, to do that. And we've gotten a little bit here and there. But what we really need to do is bear down on these people.
In the case of Robert Kennedy, he's already got his financial arrangement laid out. And the connection, the clear line, between what he can do, as Secretary of HHS, and how he can help destroy access to vaccines, is a clear through line, and he has a financial incentive to do that.
And I just want to add here. This is partly about Robert Kennedy and making money. But it's also about whether your kids will get access to vaccines.
COLLINS: When he says he's not anti-vaccine, and says his kids have been vaccinated, what went through your mind?
WARREN: You know, look, you showed part of it. Just over and over and over, he would say he didn't say things, that you have the videotape showing that he did.
He said what he thinks he has to say, right now, to make it on through a confirmation. And the problem with that is the day he is voted, and that final vote is in, we're done with getting anything from Robert Kennedy. He heads right off in the direction he wants to go.
[21:10:00]
COLLINS: Do you think Republicans can trust him, that he has changed his position, or that he would listen to Trump, on abortion? Because he's recently said he would be OK with full term -- that abortions up until a full term.
WARREN: You know, and yet you show the videos of him out there, saying with passion, in New Hampshire, that it is a woman's right to choose. So, you tell me, which Robert Kennedy do you believe?
COLLINS: The other thing that came up today that was a really notable moment was on Medicaid.
WARREN: Yes.
COLLINS: This is something Republicans were questioning him on. Senator Bill Cassidy of Louisiana was asking, What kind of changes and reforms would you want to see to this massive program that benefits about 80 million Americans, providing them with health care, who are low-income, and rely on the government for this.
When he was asked about that, this is a moment that got a lot of attention.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KENNEDY JR.: Well Medicaid is not working for Americans, and it's specifically not working, for the target population. Most Americans, like myself, I'm on Medicare Advantage, and I'm very happy with it. Most people who are on Medicaid are not happy. The premiums are too high, the deductibles are too high.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Obviously, people who are on Medicaid aren't generally charged premiums or deductibles.
WARREN: Yes.
COLLINS: That's why they're on Medicaid, because they can't.
WARREN: Right.
COLLINS: It's for low-income Americans.
But he would be in charge of this program--
WARREN: Yes.
COLLINS: --to be clear, if he is confirmed.
WARREN: Right. So understand, he will have massive power in this role, and he doesn't even understand the basics. I had the same kind of conversation with him, when I talked to him about the ability to bring down drug prices, and I talked about the different tools that are available to the Secretary of HHS. And he kept saying, Really, you can do that? And I just wanted--
COLLINS: This was in your meeting with him?
WARREN: Yes. And--
COLLINS: He was shocked at the authorities--
WARREN: No--
COLLINS: --that he would have?
WARREN: Yes. Just said, Oh, he didn't know about that. And if he had that, well maybe he would figure out how to use it.
Here's the thing. He really is not qualified to do this work. But I want to remind you. He's known now for how long, two months, that he was nominated for this? He hadn't even done his homework.
COLLINS: Does it make you feel better that Dr. Oz would be the CMS administrator?
WARREN: No. Dr. Oz is someone, who also has a financial stake in the program that he would oversee.
So remember, RFK just mentioned it, Medicare versus Medicare Advantage. About half of folks are on Medicare. It's good, solid program. Medicare Advantage is the privatized version.
COLLINS: Exactly.
WARREN: And Medicare Advantage, right now, according to independent analysts, is ripping off the American taxpayer by about $83 billion a year. And how do they do that? They do it by manipulating the billing that they get from the taxpayer, and at the same time denying coverage to the people who are entitled to care. So, that's a program that needs to be reformed.
Dr. Oz, according to his financial statements, has a stake in the Medicare Advantage companies.
COLLINS: And he's not Senate-confirmed, I should--
WARREN: Oh, no. He will.
COLLINS: Or he will be Senate-confirmed. He's not Senate-confirmed--
WARREN: He's just not yet.
COLLINS: --yet, in that position. Kennedy goes first.
On this overall, just before we get to whether or not he can get confirmed, what was your reaction to him acknowledging to Michael Bennet, Senator of Colorado, that he has said it's highly likely Lyme disease was a military bioweapon. I mean, they have found cavemen that had Lyme disease--
WARREN: Right.
COLLINS: --if I'm not mistaken.
WARREN: That's right. That's right. Look, he has been promoting one conspiracy theory after another. And some, like the Lymes disease, you can kind of roll your eyes.
But understand this. When, for example, in Samoa, he got involved in helping drive down the vaccination rates, and then, no surprise, a measles outbreak hits, and kids start dying? His response was to double down and suggest, the problem was not they were dying from measles. They were dying from the vaccine, which then frightens parents, all around the world.
Understand, ultimately, about vaccines, this is about whether or not your kids, our kids, my grandkids, will even have access to vaccines. And he says, Oh no, I'm not going to cut it off.
Go back to what we were talking about earlier. He has so many ways, as Secretary of HHS, to undermine vaccines, and to undermine the vaccine manufacturers.
COLLINS: And you asked if he took responsibility for that. He told you, no.
Does he make it out of committee, the committee vote to advance to the full Senate, in your view?
WARREN: Well, he's not getting any Democrats.
COLLINS: Not a single Democrat, you believe?
WARREN: I don't believe so.
COLLINS: What about in the entire Senate, do you think any Democrats? There's this idea of maybe they were flirting with it. Do you think a single Democrat in the Senate will vote for him?
WARREN: Look, I don't want to speak for others. But after a hearing like today, I just don't see how that's possible.
COLLINS: Senator Elizabeth Warren, more to come. Thank you very much for joining us, here tonight.
WARREN: Thanks.
[21:15:00]
COLLINS: Tonight, also at the White House, there's more confusion as they have rescinded that order that we were telling you about, last night, freezing trillions of dollars in federal spending. We're going to try to sort out what's happening. Plus, I have new reporting, tonight, on the multi-million dollar settlement that President Trump just signed in the Oval Office, ending the lawsuit he brought against Meta, after his social media accounts were suspended following January 6th.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, another federal judge says he plans to block President Trump's freeze on federal aid, even though the White House rescinded the original memo ordering that freeze today.
The whiplash and widespread confusion, over Trump's pause and reversal, remains very real tonight.
[21:20:00]
But here is where things stand, right now, as of 09:19 p.m. The White House says, in a tweet today, that the federal funding freeze has not been rescinded, but the memo ordering it has, and that Trump's executive orders, freezing foreign assistance and ending Diversity, Equity and Inclusion initiatives remain in effect.
The judge today actually cited that tweet from Karoline Leavitt, and his reason for issuing another block.
My political sources tonight are Lulu Garcia-Navarro and Scott Jennings.
And hopefully, we can sort this out, Lulu.
LULU GARCIA-NAVARRO, NEW YORK TIMES HOST, "THE INTERVIEW," CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Yes, Scott. Tell us, what is going on.
SCOTT JENNINGS, FORMER SR. ADVISER TO MITCH MCCONNELL, FORMER SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO PRES. GEORGE W. BUSH, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I actually -- you know what?
COLLINS: I was -- I was here to start and you go (ph).
JENNINGS: I actually--
COLLINS: We'll go there.
JENNINGS: I actually can, because I did a little digging on this tonight.
Here's what I think happened. I think they've been having a pretty good rollout of most of what they're doing. This memo somehow got written outside of the normal process and released into the wild.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Aha?
JENNINGS: I think they were trying to bring some further clarity to some of their priorities, but it had the opposite impact. And so, they rescinded it, which was the responsible thing to do. They were trying to eliminate confusion. They ended up sowing some confusion. They've now taken that down.
The President's executive order of last week, which did freeze--
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Scott, this was a hot mess.
JENNINGS: Let me finish. Let me finish. The President--
GARCIA-NAVARRO: This was just a hot mess.
JENNINGS: The President's executive order of last week still stands, and there's no confusion about that, on the DEI funding and other things. And so, that's fine.
And I think, tonight, where I -- where I see it is, yes, this memo did cause confusion, but it has been pulled down. And there are still people going out, saying, This will be pulled, that will be pulled, Meals on Wheels can't -- now, they are the ones sowing the confusion.
So, I think everybody should agree, the memo is off the table now. It was a mistake. But it's been pulled down.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Well, how is that clear? I mean, honestly, how is it clear? First of all, you stop--
JENNINGS: I just said it.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Well I--
JENNINGS: I think they did it. They took it down.
COLLINS: OK, let her explain.
JENNINGS: Yes.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: I got it.
COLLINS: She let you explain. Go ahead.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: I gave you your time. Give me my time.
JENNINGS: Go ahead.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: You start with this thing where, which is unprecedented, which you stop, all of a sudden, trillions of dollars that goes across the country to all sorts of different things. And you say, You know what? Because we want to stop wokeism, we're going to stop all this.
There's an immediate backlash. People are calling their senators, they're calling their congresspeople. And then, you have an order rescinding it. And then, you have Karoline Leavitt, saying, You know what? I'm sorry, this thing is actually still in effect, but this other thing isn't.
Do you think anyone understands this? It's very confusing. You must admit it. COLLINS: And can I ask--
GARCIA-NAVARRO: It's very confusing.
COLLINS: But can I ask? Because this came out on Monday night, right around by the time we got off air. It was just rescinded today.
JENNINGS: Yes.
COLLINS: And White House officials spent yesterday defending it, and saying it was actually the media who was causing the confusion. I mean, we -- I personally, looked at the memo. Obviously, we don't aim to put out confusion.
JENNINGS: Yes.
COLLINS: It was confusing. It didn't have clarity on what programs it affected. Stephen Miller was arguing that it was the media. Trump today was arguing, it was the media.
But it was the memo itself that did not provide clarity to where I heard that lawmakers, and state officials, governors, were calling the White House, saying, Hey, is this impacted? I can't get a clear read on it.
JENNINGS: Let me concede your point. It was confusing. I agree with you. That's number one.
Number two, I also heard the same thing, that they were getting some calls from friendly governors and friendly legislators out there. That's never a good thing, when your allies are a little scrambled.
COLLINS: And what were those governors and allies saying?
JENNINGS: Well, I think they were -- I think they were also confused about how they were supposed to be handling incoming calls, about different things.
But the greater point, tonight, as we sit here, right now, is they've pulled it down. Because they wanted to do something. It happened, I think, outside of the normal policy process, and they realized what had happened, and they have pulled it down.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: But the bigger -- but--
JENNINGS: And so, nothing is being canceled.
COLLINS: But Lulu, can I ask you--
GARCIA-NAVARRO: OK. That's fine. But there's a bigger--
JENNINGS: Nothing is being canceled.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: But this sits in a bigger context, which is they are pushing the bounds of what is actually constitutional. I mean, this is the thing. The fact that this has to go towards now two judges. The fact that there are legislators saying, Hey, we control the power of the purse, not the president.
So what is actually going on here? What is the point of all of this?
COLLINS: Well, and Scott, but -- Scott, going back and looking at the bigger picture, it has been a pretty, a much better executed rollout in the first few days of Trump's administration--
JENNINGS: Yes.
COLLINS: --than round one, than Trump -- Trump's first term. And White House officials will acknowledge that.
JENNINGS: Yes.
COLLINS: I think a lot of them are irritated by this, because it--
JENNINGS: Agree.
COLLINS: --it kind of threw a bump into that.
But looking at that, and to her point, there are still a lot of questions about the constitutionality of some of his moves, or the legality.
But Democrats, today, are saying, We've gotten a win.
They don't have many wins. Democrat--
JENNINGS: Ah.
COLLINS: Hakeem Jeffries apparently was very fired up on a call today--
JENNINGS: Yes.
COLLINS: --saying, We won, basically.
JENNINGS: OK, so I mean, wins, losses, in the context of what has been a really good rollout, where President Trump has very high approval ratings. I mean, I'll let Hakeem Jeffries be the judge of that.
Here's what I think. They did the right thing. This memo did sow confusion. They pulled it back. I don't think it should taint what has otherwise been a really good rollout.
And just one political point. I do think the American people are looking for somebody to say, Wait a minute, is all this money we're spending going to the things that it's supposed to? That impulse is, is the right impulse. Perhaps--
COLLINS: But isn't that Congress' job?
JENNINGS: Well, yes. But I also think the Executive branch is the one sending the money out. I think -- I think voters are like, Somebody, please look into this for a minute.
[21:25:00]
GARCIA-NAVARRO: But the American people do not like things taken away from them. They don't like if you--
JENNINGS: Nothing's been taken away.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Yes, but for a moment there, it looked like things were.
JENNINGS: But it's -- but it's not.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Meals on Wheels and all these things.
JENNINGS: It's not.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Nobody likes that.
JENNINGS: I know. But it's not.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Right?
JENNINGS: So that -- so I think that--
COLLINS: It's not--
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Another point that you--
(CROSSTALK)
COLLINS: --now that it's been rescinded.
JENNINGS: But -- but yes, because--
GARCIA-NAVARRO: People don't like things taken away from them.
JENNINGS: Yes, but, tonight--
COLLINS: Scott Jennings.
JENNINGS: --the Meals on Wheels, the cancer aid (ph), none of that is going away, like, if you take nothing away from this conversation, that is not going away.
COLLINS: Because they rescinded the memo--
JENNINGS: Correct.
COLLINS: --that paused it.
JENNINGS: That is correct.
COLLINS: Scott Jennings.
JENNINGS: The memo is gone.
COLLINS: Lulu Garcia-Navarro. Like how you said your last point was the political one, like, the whole thing wasn't a political--
JENNINGS: No. No.
COLLINS: --argument.
JENNINGS: No, I wanted to make a point about the fact that the American people would like to see us spend a little less money. I think that's true.
COLLINS: Up next. We're going to talk about another executive action that was signed by President Trump today, as far as his immigration crackdown.
I actually caught up with his new Homeland Security Secretary, and his Border czar, to ask them about the plan to send tens of thousands of migrants to Guantanamo Bay.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Secretary Noem, can we ask you a few questions here, please? Would you guys gaggle with reporters for a few moments?
You are both the top immigration advisers to President Trump, in addition to Stephen Miller. He just announced that he's signing an executive order to put 30,000 detention beds at Guantanamo Bay.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Some breaking news this hour, as a small plane has just crashed into the Potomac River, here in Washington, near the Ronald Reagan Airport, just outside Washington, D.C. That's according to the D.C. Fire Department.
As you can see here, fire boats are now on the scene.
And Reagan National Airport says that all takeoffs and landings from the airport have been halted for now, as emergency personnel are responding to the situation that is unfolding.
We're just learning new details, and I want to get to CNN's Pete Muntean.
Pete, first off, what can you tell us? What do we know about the size of this aircraft, or just what happened here?
PETE MUNTEAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: This is developing by the moment, Kaitlan. And it sounds at least, according to the preliminary data, from Flightradar24, one of the big flight tracking sites, that this may have been a regional jet operated by PSA Airlines. That would have been a co-chair with American Airlines, meaning you buy a ticket on American, the flight is operated by PSA.
This flight was apparently on its way from Wichita, Kansas, to DCA, Reagan National Airport, just over the D.C. line in Virginia. Apparently about 08:48 Eastern Standard Time is when this flight was scheduled to arrive, according to the latest flight tracking data. And apparently, there was some sort of incident.
You can see in the live image there. This is from our D.C. Bureau, in northeast D.C., looking across the Potomac River, so looking essentially southwest towards Reagan National Airport. All the flashing lights of the police response, and also the D.C. Fire fire boats there, in the Potomac River.
The good news here is that this is -- we have broken the cold streak, here in D.C., so the water temperatures are not as frigid as they were. It was a relatively warm day, here in Washington, D.C. So, that will aid rescuers and response crews, as they're trying to get to the scene.
But Reagan National Airport, one of the busiest airports in the country. And apparently, this flight, according to the flight tracking data, was coming in from the south. That's called the Mount Vernon approach into Reagan National Airport, landing on Runway 1, at Reagan National Airport, which is to the north. That's the busiest single runway in the National Airspace System.
A lot of folks still finding out about this. We have calls out to the Federal Aviation Administration, the National Transportation Safety Board, American Airlines and beyond.
Right now, we're just getting very early preliminary information, from the Metropolitan Washington Airport Authority itself, which operates Reagan National Airport. They say there was an incident at the airport right now. But things are still developing all the time. And we're trying to figure out exactly what the circumstances were here.
COLLINS: Yes.
MUNTEAN: If this was a crash of a commercial airliner, that has not happened in the United States, in about 15 years. The last major crash of a commercial airliner in the U.S. was the Colgan air crash of 2009, left an indelible mark on aviation, left sweeping regulatory changes that are still being dealt with, in aviation, to this day.
It's a really, really, really busy slice of airspace. And I can tell you, as a pilot, as a flight instructor, as somebody who has a small airplane at an airport, not too far away from Reagan National Airport. It is a very restricted piece of airspace, but it's also very busy with commercial traffic. Also very busy with helicopters, not only from local law enforcement, but also military and government agencies.
We just saw in D.C., if you have ever spent a long time in the District of Columbia, you know that helicopters are a way of life here.
COLLINS: Yes. MUNTEAN: So there are some now big questions here about the busyness of the airspace, and what exactly took place here. We don't want to speculate. We want to rule things out. But right now, we're just finding out--
COLLINS: Yes.
MUNTEAN: --very preliminary information, about what has taken place here, at Reagan National Airport. Very clearly an incident, and very clearly, an incident with an incredible police--
COLLINS: Yes, and Pete--
MUNTEAN: --and fire response.
COLLINS: And just on the helicopters. I mean, there's -- there's literally a Twitter account dedicated to what helicopter's flying where, because there are so many flying in U.S. airspace. Marine One flies over the Potomac, to be clear as well. That's that flight pattern.
But on this plane, specifically, is it a passenger plane. And if so, how many passengers does it fit exactly?
MUNTEAN: This is what we think, according to the preliminary flight tracking data. And I'm going to underscore again and again, this is preliminary. That this flight was a Canadair Regional Jet.
[21:35:00]
It's, I'm just going to pull up the data again. CRJ is what they're called. You've probably been on them before. They operate the regional flights for major airlines, between smaller airports and larger airports. They are a very common site at Reagan National Airport.
It looks like this was a CRJ700. So that is a larger, longer regional jet, seats about 60 or 70 people or so. I'd have to check on it. I'm sure somebody will also check me on that, who's watching right now.
So, this could be potentially very significant. And if this involves, indeed a commercial flight, and that's what the preliminary flight tracking data says, that this flight was on approach into Reagan National Airport, approaching from the South to the North, on the Mount Vernon approach, initially landing on Runway 1, and then potentially, according to the flight data, did a swing-around maneuver, where they sort of swing over the Maryland side of the Potomac, and then line up with a northwesterly runway called Runway 33? That's a pretty common thing for these smaller regional jets to do. It's something, a maneuver that can be very tricky at times.
This, of course, happened at night, which makes things a bit more complicated, not only for the pilots who were flying this airplane, but also for rescuers.
COLLINS: Yes.
MUNTEAN: It is very, very dark on the Potomac. And it is--
COLLINS: Yes.
MUNTEAN: It was out, just a minute ago. It seemed like mostly a moonlit night, or mostly a moonless night, which makes things even harder for them to respond to this, right now.
You can see the lights and the major response out there. It's a little hard to make it out. But that is the Wilson Bridge off in the distance. If you're familiar with the D.C. area, that is the bottom side of the Beltway. So we're looking towards Virginia, right now. This happening essentially on the shores of the Potomac in Arlington, Virginia, just over the D.C. line.
COLLINS: Yes, and Pete, just, the airport was not allowing takeoffs or landings. We are now being -- are hearing from an FAA advisory that Reagan National Airport is closed due to an emergency.
And as you noted there, you can see this massive response here. And from this angle, this camera from the D.C. Bureau, I mean, just to give everyone a heads-up, we're about a 15-minute drive from Reagan National, here at the Bureau. And that just shows you, we can see just how overwhelming this response is, right now.
And as you noted, I mean, this is not something that has happened in decades, if so, as we are still waiting to learn more details.
MUNTEAN: Commercial aviation, worldwide, and especially in the United States, is incredibly safe. And in the U.S., it is really the gold standards, that of -- the gold standard that other countries follow, when it comes to our regulatory framework that essentially protects lives. And the rules in aviation are essentially written in blood.
And there were times in aviation, where there were major spates of accidents and major fatalities, over and over again. And aviation really did clean up its act, through the 90s and beyond.
This, if it is a significant incident, and we really do not know a lot right now, could really mark the end of an incredible safety streak for commercial aviation in the United States. I just checked, in a CRJ700 like this, seats between 66 and 78 people.
COLLINS: Wow.
MUNTEAN: So, it's not the -- it's not the small -- you know, we've called it a small airplane on our air.
COLLINS: It's not that small, yes.
MUNTEAN: Our initial -- our initial copy here, internally at CNN, and beyond. That this was a small airplane. Small is very relative. This is -- this is not involving a Cessna. This is not a Piper. This is not a Beechcraft. This is not a Cirrus.
This is something that is -- that this is a real bona fide airliner. And it's likely one that you and I, and folks at home, have been on, especially connecting smaller, busier airports, metropolitan airports like DCA, like Reagan National Airport, to larger hubs.
It appears from the, at least the early data from Flightradar24, that this was a flight from Wichita, Kansas, here into Reagan National Airport, and was slated to arrive--
COLLINS: And Pete?
MUNTEAN: --around 08:48, this evening.
COLLINS: What we are -- what we are told is that this crash, just in the Potomac River, not on the runway or right outside the airport. I mean, they're obviously very close. You fly over the river, when you're landing at Reagan National. But the plane has actually crashed in the river, we believe.
MUNTEAN: Yes, that's the initial thinking. And a rescue effort in the water would be incredibly difficult, especially given the darkness of the hour, and the fact that it is so cold.
[21:40:00]
And there has been a track record, a history here back -- someone's going to have to check me on this as well. But in the early 80s, I think in '82, Air Florida Flight 90 crashed on takeoff from Reagan National Airport on Runway 1. Back then, it was a different number. But taking off to the north, the pilots were in a bit of a rush. It was snowing out. And they hit the 14th Street Bridge between Virginia and D.C. It was a very perilous cold, frigid day in January. And only a few people on that flight survived.
It really makes things much, much -- compounds the risk here, and the danger, incredibly high, because this happened in the water, and, not to mention, at night. So, we're still sort of getting more details here to figure out exactly the circumstance here.
COLLINS: Yes.
MUNTEAN: But this did -- if it indeed involve a commercial airliner, this would just be awful.
COLLINS: Yes. And this is a flight that took off at about 06:20, just before 06:30 Eastern Time from Wichita, 05:20 their time, was on its way here to Reagan National Airport.
Pete Muntean, as you continue to talk to your sources, obviously, let us know what they're saying as they're continuing this research, as we're looking into this, and just getting the sense of what exactly this looks like, Pete.
I mean, you have, you're -- you're so well-versed in this. What does a rescue effort, like this, where do they even start, as they're trying to get an assessment? How are they having comms with flight control, with either the pilots who were on that plane, or at the tower at Reagan National Airport? What does that look like?
MUNTEAN: You have to feel for the air traffic controllers involved here. They do a very hard and very stressful job. Many of them are working mandatory six-day weeks, on 12-hour shifts. They are oftentimes very helpless, when something like this happens. They are sort of confined to the tower.
The tower there at Reagan National Airport has an incredible view, not only of the airport itself, the three main runways at National Airport, although one runway is the primary one. But they also have a great view of Washington and of the Maryland side of the Potomac.
The response here -- and I spoke with Noah Gray at D.C. Fire. He was on his way to a fire boat that D.C. Fire has, simply for things like this.
There are occasionally boats stationed, as part of the response plan. And a commercial airport, like Reagan National Airport, has practiced and well-equipped Crash Fire Rescue Team, specifically in place, to respond to a major air incident.
So they also, because it is the Potomac, and the Potomac is -- the airport is right on the banks of the Potomac, it is mostly built on infill? It was built primarily in the 30s and 40s. It is right there on the Potomac. They have to have this as part of the response. Not every airport has that. It's really not necessary, for an airport that is inland.
COLLINS: Yes.
MUNTEAN: But Reagan National Airport is a very, very unique case. And so, to be able to go out into the water, especially in a way inspired by the Air Florida crash, back in the 80s, that is something that is so unique and so significant here.
We're -- this is now a live image, from my--
COLLINS: Yes, this is from an affiliate, Pete. What are you--
MUNTEAN: Yes, from WUSA.
COLLINS: I mean, this is obviously much closer. What can you see in this, as we're looking at this response?
MUNTEAN: I--
COLLINS: And just how large this response is, from what they prepare for, as they do that?
Voice of MUNTEAN: I'm happy, we've taken it full. In the distance there, you can -- you can see Crystal City, Virginia, there. Of course, the red and white flashing lights.
I can see the -- the yellow fire truck at about the two-thirds position of your screen, about a third from screen right? That's likely one of the foam trucks that is used by the Metropolitan Washington Airport Authority, specifically for Crash Fire Rescue. I've met some of these firefighters. They do incredible work. They have fire boats there. And I think, if you see sort of in the center of the screen, you can see the reflection of the Potomac there. This is looking westbound from the Maryland side. You can see the reflection there. The camera is moving a little bit. But that little opening that's light, that looks like it is one of the fire -- the response boat pens or docks, where they keep the boats for specifically, potentially an incident like this. This is an incredible response.
This is not the type of response you see when somebody is sick on an airplane. This is not the type of response that you see when there is even an engine fire, or some incident where an airplane slides off the runway.
[21:45:00]
This shows, to me, that there is something extremely significant, happening here at Reagan National Airport. And -- and it seems like there is -- there's probably never, ever been an emergency response, like this, at the airport, in modern times. I mean, this is, it really something else to behold.
Voice of COLLINS: It's remarkable to see.
Pete Muntean, I want you to stay with us.
Voice of MUNTEAN: You can see one of the fire boats there now at that--
Voice of COLLINS: Yes, yes, you can see it--
Voice of MUNTEAN: Yes.
Voice of COLLINS: --getting up around the side, driving up.
Pete, I want you to check in -- take a moment, check in with your sources. You are the best-sourced aviation correspondent. Check in with them. See what you are hearing from the officials on the scene. Stay with us, though. Obviously, we're going to come back to you.
I also am being joined by Mary Schiavo, who is the former I.G. for the U.S. Department of Transportation.
Can you just walk us through -- obviously, as Pete was noting, we have not seen a passenger plane crash, in the United States, in quite some time. Tell us what you're seeing in these images, and what your questions are right now.
Voice of MARY SCHIAVO, FMR I.G., U.S. DEPT OF TRANSPORTATION: Well, and I just flew into Washington, D.C., myself, not two hours ago. There, you know, there were -- there was some -- some not -- you know, the wind that would shut the airport. But there was some pretty significant wind.
And, of course, also local coverage in D.C. and feeds from D.C., there was shown, not long ago, of actual footage of the midair, and there was quite an explosion in the air, and then the response at the airport is massive.
So, there hasn't been a confirmation on exactly what flight, what plane. But you could see, in local footage and local video, in Washington, D.C., the actual moment of the collision and the explosion in the air. So clearly, what they're reporting does appear to have happened, and the response at the airport is quite -- is quite massive.
And, again, at first, they reported, it was just a small plane into the river. But now, local reports are saying a scheduled small jet. So obviously, it was a commercial passenger service air accident, like this, obviously, there will be a significant number of people who are on board.
Voice of COLLINS: In your guesstimate, how many people would be on board? Pete had said he believed about, I mean, at least several dozen, close to 70.
We see more, I should note, response arriving, ambulance and a police -- and a police car just arriving there on the scene.
And just to bring everyone up to speed. We are watching the reaction and the emergency response underway, right now, at Reagan National Airport. You can see the water here. That is the Potomac River shot, where we are told a plane has crashed into the Potomac River. It was on its way here to D.C., from Wichita, Kansas.
The two senators from Kansas, I should note, say that they are in contact with emergency response, regarding this crash as well.
But how many people, Mary, would be on a plane of this size, based on what you know?
Voice of SCHIAVO: Well, you know, there are a number of different versions of regional jets, which I would think it would be a regional plane from Wichita. It could be, you know, it could be a full-sized plane, depending upon the load factors out of Wichita.
But on a regional jet, you likely have anywhere from 50 to a 120 people. That's just what the planes hold. Now, the regional jet I just flew in on, a couple hours ago, it was -- mine was an American, and it came from Charleston, South Carolina. That one held -- you know, that one held about 90 people. It was not full. So, there's always a possibility of that.
But you know, D.C. is a -- you know, it's a popular airport. Everyone wants to fly in it. That the issue's concerning D.C. airport, even years ago. I mean, decades ago, when Dulles was built, D.C. was supposed to close, because of the crowded airspace. But no one would -- you know, no one wanted to tolerate that, because it's such popular airport, it's so close to Washington, D.C. And obviously, there's lots of local other traffic, government helicopters and planes, et cetera.
The first reports is that it was a small private plane. And that also raised concern. Because to fly into Reagan National, you either have to have special permission, or be a government plane-- Voice of COLLINS: Right.
Voice of SCHIAVO: --or have security on board.
Voice of COLLINS: Mary?
Voice of SCHIAVO: But they're reporting commercial airplane.
Voice of COLLINS: Yes, emergency response had said initially here in D.C. that they believed, this was a small plane.
Obviously, we are no longer calling it a small plane, given--
Voice of SCHIAVO: Right.
Voice of COLLINS: --that is obviously relative.
Voice of SCHIAVO: Right.
Voice of COLLINS: Stand by, Mary. Because Pete Muntean is back with me.
Pete, what have you learned?
Voice of MUNTEAN: I have this statement now, a bombshell statement, really, from the Federal Aviation Administration. I'm going to read it to you verbatim.
PSA Airlines Bombardier CRJ700 regional jet collided in midair with a Sikorsky H-60 helicopter -- that's a Black Hawk -- while on approach to Runway 33 at Reagan National Airport, around 09:00 p.m. local time. PSA was operating as Flight 5342 for American Airlines. It departed from Wichita, Kansas.
[21:50:00]
FAA will investigate. NTSB will investigate. NTSB will lead the investigation, the FAA says. And the FAA says, it will provide more information as it comes in.
The huge news here, not only was this a crash involving a commercial flight, this Flight 5342, from Wichita, Kansas, to Reagan National Airport. But that this was a midair collision with a helicopter. This was a midair collision not with any helicopter. This was a midair collision with a H-60, which is more colloquially known as the Black Hawk helicopter.
The -- the approach -- I'm stumbling over my words here, because this is just so staggering that there is a midair collision, involving a commercial airliner.
Commercial flights are equipped, for ages, with a system called TCAS, Traffic Collision Avoidance System. It tells the pilots in the cockpit how to avoid other airplanes nearby. It is a system that came about, because of midair collisions with commercial airliners and small general aviation aircraft, commercial airliners and helicopters. It tells the pilots, There's traffic ahead of you. Climb, climb now. Descend, descend now.
This would be an incredible lining up of the holes in the Swiss cheese, the -- which is the saying in aviation, the gaps in the safety chain in aviation, that this happened.
And now, investigators have an incredible amount of work cut out for them, to figure out how a commercial airliner, in the United States, in 2025, when the pilots are incredibly trained, the technology is incredibly sharp, collided with what is apparently a military or government helicopter. Nobody else uses the Black Hawk.
Voice of COLLINS: Yes.
Voice of MUNTEAN: It is -- it is really something else. I -- I'm just stunned.
Initially, we had heard that this may had been a collision with a police helicopter. And what the FAA is laying out here is that is not the case. This was a midair collision, between this commercial flight, and a government or military helicopter.
To put this into context for you. Reagan National Airport is right across the river. On the Maryland side is Joint Base Anacostia- Bolling. That is where the presidential helicopter fleet is based. You'll often see Marine One staged there, as well as the decoy helicopters that are part of the flight. That when there is a presidential movement, you'll often also see Black Hawk helicopters there as well.
I drive by it all the time. It's right on D.C. 295, if you're familiar with the Washington Metro area. And I'm sure if you are, you have seen the helicopters overhead, the green military helicopters.
We do not know who is operating this helicopter. We know who was operating the airliner. PSA Airlines, on behalf of American Airlines.
We have seen, and you can see -- this is actually a much better shot now, because you can see the end of the runway there, that is looking -- this is now looking westbound, from the Virginia side of the Potomac, looking west towards where Joint Base Anacostia-Bolling is, Reagan National Airport is closest to us there.
You can see, the runway lights emerge from above the graphic there, towards the center of your screen. And then, of course, the Police, Fire, EMS, Crash Fire Rescue Response there, on the west -- that is the Eastern Shore, the west edge of the Reagan National Airport property.
You can see some boats in the water there, and that's one of likely the D.C. fire boats that we've just taken the live shot of, from WUSA. And there have been several helicopters.
I just spoke to a source, who is there on the south edge of the airport. And he tells me that there are multiple helicopters in the air, that they're apparently searching in the water with spotlights out. A flurry of activity, not only on the Virginia side of the Potomac, where Reagan National Airport is, but also on the west side, where Joint Base Anacostia-Bolling is, on the Maryland side.
We can see now--
Voice of COLLINS: And Pete, can you see? This is CNN's camera, showing this emergency response. I mean, those are the boats that they are -- more boats that they are presumably going to put in the water.
I mean, just to put into plain terms, Pete. I mean, to say that a passenger plane has just collided with a Black Hawk helicopter in over the Potomac. And we are seeing the size of this response. And they are still preparing to put more boats in the water. I mean, obviously we want to wait to see what happens. But this has the potential to be an unthinkable tragedy.
[21:55:00]
Voice of MUNTEAN: Yes. I mean, a CRJ, a Canadair Regional Jet, like this, holds about 70 people. And there's no confirmation of injuries or fatalities here. Of course, we hope and pray that that is not the case.
If there is a midair collision, that is something that is so infrequently survivable, and is one of the reasons why aircraft, commercial aircraft in the U.S., are required to be equipped with anti-collision technology, and the pilots are required to follow the commands from that anti-collision technology.
This is a response that is far and wide. It is not only in D.C. This is -- these are crews, apparently, from Fairfax County, which is two counties away, or a county away, from Arlington County, where the airport is. So, this is an incredible response to try and truly -- you can also see helicopters in the air, to make this a happy ending.
One has to wonder, if there is going to be any happy ending here. It is just so staggeringly sad.
Voice of COLLINS: I mean, it is stunning news. And obviously, we are praying for everyone who is involved here.
Pete Muntean, I'm going to let you check in with your sources. Let us know when you're hearing more about the scene that we are watching unfold, right now.
Miles O'Brien is on the phone with me.
Miles, I just -- we have talked to you about so many aviation issues, and problems, over the years. Have you ever seen a passenger plane colliding, in midair, with a Black Hawk helicopter?
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN AVIATION ANALYST (On Telephone): No, this one is a first, Kaitlan, sadly.
I'm looking at the complicated airspace, along the Potomac River, in Washington. And there are, of course, helicopter routes all up the Potomac River. Anybody who's been to Washington has seen the low-level helicopter flights, military flights. And that route passes just on the other side of the threshold to the runway, which this aircraft was lining up for. So, that's probably where the collision occurred.
And clearly, one of these aircraft was in the wrong spot. These corridors are very specific about their location and altitude. And an aircraft on approach to Runway 33 would have very specific glide slope, it would be following. So, somebody was off-course here, for this to happen, clearly.
Voice of COLLINS: Miles, I want you to watch. We're watching the emergency response right now. This is video we just got, where you see what we believe is the crash down there. I want you to watch this again, Miles, if you can see this.
O'BRIEN (On Telephone): Apologies. But I can't see right at the moment.
Voice of COLLINS: Did you see that, Miles? Hold on. We'll replay it for you.
O'BRIEN (On Telephone): I'm sorry. I don't -- I'm not able to see CNN, right at the moment, Kaitlan. I apologize.
Voice of COLLINS: Essentially, what we're watching is you can see the explosion appear to happen in midair, as you see what looks--
O'BRIEN (On Telephone): Oh.
Voice of COLLINS: --and appears to be a helicopter then hitting a -- hitting the plane.
O'BRIEN (On Telephone): OK. I'm seeing it now. And I have seen this video before I got on the air.
And what you're seeing, essentially, is you see how the aircraft is banking. The way you fly the approach into National Airport for Runway 33, which is the shorter runway that an aircraft of this size would use, is you fly the approach to Runway 1, which is due north, pretty much, and then you, at a certain point, you turn off and line up on the north-westerly runway.
And that aircraft was in that banking turn, as it was lining up for approach, for Runway 33. And that is that spot where underneath is a helicopter route. And so, that's -- this is the collision point, clearly, is at that location along that helicopter corridor along the Potomac River.
Voice of COLLINS: How does this happen with the technology that we have in 2025? I mean, that is the question, I think everyone who is watching this, right now, who has flown into this airport, or been on a regional plane like this one. How does this happen, Miles?
O'BRIEN (On Telephone): Yes, there is a technological solution here. And one of the big questions that accident investigators will attempt to answer here is, did those systems work, that the TCAS, a Terminal Collision Avoidance System, which has origins, all the way back to 1978, Kaitlan, San Diego crash, where a small Cessna aircraft hit a 727, causing numerous fatalities. It was one of these, what we call, watershed accidents in aviation, and helped change the rules, which led to this device called TCAS, which identifies a potential collision course, and gives the pilot a solution.
[22:00:00]
So, we have to figure out what happened here.
Voice of COLLINS: Yes. I mean, as we are watching this response, we are obviously praying for all these responders, and that this is a very quick and hopefully strong response, as we're watching all of this play out.
Miles O'Brien, thank you for your expertise.
Pete Muntean, for your reporting.
COLLINS: We are watching the emergency response, after it was confirmed by the FAA, that a passenger plane collided with a Black Hawk.
The breaking news continues, right here on CNN.
