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The Source with Kaitlan Collins

Trump: Musk "Won't Do Anything Without Our Approval"; Trump Declares Victory In Stand-Off With Mexico & Canada; Father: All Victims "Deserve To Be Remembered." Aired 9-10p ET

Aired February 03, 2025 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[21:00:00]

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GARY O'HARA, FATHER OF BLACK HAWK VICTIM STAFF SGT. RYAN O'HARA: --one of the teachers, in elementary school, one of the teachers was throwing out an electric pencil sharpener. He took it out of the trash, and he brought it home, and repaired it, brought it to her the next day.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: It's like he was born to do this. I mean, this is something -- that's just incredible, to me.

G. O'HARA: Yes.

COOPER: So many people do stuff that they don't really love, they don't really like. They're doing it because they need -- you know, everybody needs to make a living. But this was a passion, and he was serving his country, and there's just -- just what an extraordinary life and contribution he made.

So, thank you. Thank you for talking to us, Gary and Mary. I really appreciate it.

MARY O'HARA, MOTHER OF BLACK HAWK VICTIM STAFF SGT. RYAN O'HARA: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Ryan O'Hara was 28-years-old.

That's it for us. The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Straight from THE SOURCE, tonight.

My new reporting on Elon Musk, and his two-week blitz across the federal government, new details on his role, his power, and his access to the U.S. Treasury's checkbook.

Also, President Trump threatening U.S. neighbors with tariffs. Then backing off, after getting Canada and Mexico on the phone. But did he get anything in return? What the President said to me, just after his second call with the Canadian Prime Minister.

And officials at the FBI are bracing tonight, as Trump's DOJ is demanding the names of anyone who was involved with the January 6th cases, raising questions of whether a purge is around the corner.

I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.

We're a couple weeks in. And for many, in Washington, it feels like President Trump hopped in a Tesla, with Elon Musk at the wheel, and has now left tire tracks across much of the federal government, with just two weeks.

So much has happened in so little time that it can be hard for even the most plugged-in politicos to keep up. Today, that involved threatening a trade war with Canada and Mexico, with a midnight deadline tonight. But after a few calls and some last-minute deals, that trade war has been averted for now. We'll tell you the details in a moment.

And in the meantime, Elon Musk is working to shutter USAID without Trump's help -- with Trump's help, but without Congress' authority. Musk described the agency that administers foreign aid to countries in need as a, quote, "Criminal organization," and wrote, "Time for it to die."

As for Musk, we are also learning more about his role inside the federal government. Even though his team previously said that he would remain on the outside, we've now confirmed that he has been designated, since Trump's inauguration, as what's known as a Special Government Employee, meaning he's not fully in the federal government, but he's not fully outside of it either.

Musk is getting no salary with this job. But he has gained access, and that includes to a critical payment system at the Treasury department that is basically in charge of disbursing trillions of dollars.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: He's got access only to letting people go that he thinks are no good, if we agree with him, and it's only if we agree with him. He's a very talented guy, from the standpoint of management and costs.

Elon can't do and won't do anything without our approval. And we'll give him the approval, where appropriate. Where not appropriate, we won't.

He's running, obviously, a big company. Has nothing to do -- if there's a conflict, that we won't let him get near it. But he does have a good, natural instinct.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Now, being what is known as a Special Government Employee, an SGE, typically means you can only work a 130 days or less out of a 365-day period. We've seen them in previous administrations, like the Biden administration and the Trump administration.

But for Musk, we'll see what it means, and whether he has to file a financial disclosure form, whether that financial disclosure form becomes public. Because what is clear, right now, is that he's mired in the middle -- in the middle ground of potential conflicts that we have never seen before. He's a private citizen, who happens to also be the richest person on the planet, who has now essentially been handed the keys to the federal government.

My source tonight is veteran tech journalist, Kara Swisher.

And Kara, just as someone who has interviewed Elon Musk, who's observed him, who's known him for years. What is your takeaway on what we've seen him do, in the last two weeks?

KARA SWISHER, PODCAST HOST, "ON WITH KARA SWISHER" & "PIVOT," CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, it's very typical. This is how he conducts himself all the time.

He's always in a state of high drama, high agitation. He did this, when Tesla was in big trouble, he had to sleep on the floor of the factory, even though there was a hotel, next door, because it was dramatic.

He thinks he's the center of the universe, which is really strange. He's very into video games. And so, I think he thinks he's sort of Ready Player One. He thinks nothing can happen without his existence. He often used to say, If Tesla failed, the human race was doomed, to me on a number of occasions, things like that.

So, it's massive narcissism with a lot of talent, and a lot of PR, and a lot of drama, and that's what you're seeing right now.

COLLINS: It's interesting what you said about the bed thing, because I saw in The New York Times reporting tonight--

SWISHER: Yes.

COLLINS: --that he has moved beds into the headquarters of the--

SWISHER: Yes, interesting.

COLLINS: --the Federal Personnel Office. It's a few blocks from the White House. Essentially recreating what happened at Tesla and what happened at Twitter.

[21:05:00]

SWISHER: Well, he does it all the time. He thinks it's very dramatic, and it shows his hard -- the word he likes to use is hardcore, which is just hustle porn. It's just a different way -- they do this in Silicon Valley. They sleep under their desks. They think this is an accomplishment to show how committed they are. It just means they're exhausted.

This is what he does. He's up all night. And so, I work on weekends, that's my superpower.

Well, Kaitlan, I know you work on weekends, and so do I. I don't think we consider it a superpower.

And he -- stuff like that. He wants to -- and he also likes to criticize people relentlessly about how lazy they are, how stupid. And you saw that in The New York Times piece, the same thing, persistent insults of everybody and what they -- how they're doing, and how they -- they are terrible compared to him.

COLLINS: On that front -- I hope that's not Elon Musk calling you, right now, Kara.

SWISHER: No. God, no.

COLLINS: But what you--

SWISHER: Sorry about that.

COLLINS: --what you had posted -- or what you're referencing what he posted.

He said, Very few in the bureaucracy actually work the weekend, so it's like the opposing team just leaves the field for two days. Working the weekend is a superpower.

But on that front, when you read that and thinking less even about the federal employees, do Democrats in Washington, you think, know how to respond?

SWISHER: No.

COLLINS: Or treat Elon Musk?

SWISHER: No, he does this all the time. This is a guy, who blows up rockets to get it right, like he'll do -- he goes to the extremes. He's a high-risk individual.

And one of the things, I have been texting and writing them all, for weeks, like, Look what he's going to do. He's going to come in there. He's going -- he's been at Mar-a-Lago. He was preparing himself to.

Everyone thought it wouldn't last when Trump got to D.C., and there were more strictures around him. But that's precisely what happened. He did exactly what he was doing before moving into Mar-a-Lago -- in a thing. And now he's moving into Washington and moving into federal buildings.

And so, his manic nature is a benefit for him, given how slow the Democrats have been. Just an hour ago, Chuck Schumer was like, This is a hostile takeover of government, which a lot of us been saying for a week.

And so, they have to -- they have to be more intense with this guy, because he's very intense, and he will outrun them and out-dramatize them. And he has Twitter to do that. He has X to do that. He has the bully pulpit. He's got the President. They've got their -- they've got a match in front of them.

COLLINS: Yes, and he has a massive platform, massive leeway, and also a lot of support on Capitol Hill from Republicans, but even some Democrats, who were initially open to--

SWISHER: Sure.

COLLINS: --to the Government Efficiency aspect of this.

Did anything stand out to you, from what we heard from Trump today? It was probably his most extensive comments on the authority that Elon Musk has, and how much Trump is listening to him--

SWISHER: Yes.

COLLINS: --or, as he said, maybe not listening to him?

SWISHER: Well, I think he was saying, We're in control here, which he's not, by the way. I don't think he knows half the things Elon is doing. And he -- Elon's saying he's getting permission for everything. But I think they have a lot of that around Trump. And I think he wants to say, I'm in control of this guy, don't worry.

I think Elon has the upper hand here in many ways.

How can he really stop them? I think Trump officials are saying that. I've heard from Trump officials. They don't know what to do. And I said, Good luck, because he will do whatever he wants.

COLLINS: You've heard from Trump officials, who say they don't know what to do with Elon Musk?

SWISHER: Yes, right afterwards, when I was being critical of him at the beginning, they were like, He's the best thing ever. And I said, You're going to -- you're not -- you don't even understand what's about to happen with this guy, he goes off like a Roman candle. And he has.

I think he pushes his way into meetings. He makes himself present. He makes himself inevitable in many ways. And I think probably a lot of people aren't used to -- he doesn't tell people when he's doing things. These kids that he has working for him, who knows which ones have clearance. Nothing is clear.

He makes up things about the ball of worms. The whole ball of worms thing that he did in this -- in this Twitter Spaces thing, where he called USAID, a ball of worms and criminals. I'm sure that was not cleared with anybody, that these -- this kind of language. But they kind of like it, because he's like a junkyard dog, and he'll -- he'll do the fights they don't have to, and Trump is protected from that.

COLLINS: Kara Swisher, thank you, as always.

SWISHER: Thank you.

COLLINS: Also here tonight are my White House insiders. Isaac Arnsdorf is a Senior White House Reporter for The Washington Post.

And Dasha Burns is the White House Bureau Chief for Politico.

And you heard what Kara said there, about the people who are working for Elon Musk. This has also been a point of reporting.

I asked Karoline Leavitt today, she's the White House press secretary, about whether or not all of those people who were at USAID, this weekend, or at the Treasury department, with Elon Musk getting access to that, if they have these security clearances. This is what she had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: And do you know about anyone who's on his team that was at USAID this weekend or at Treasury department, whether they also have security clearances?

KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I don't, no. But I -- again, I can check on that for you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: What do we make of who is helping Elon Musk carry this out?

ISAAC ARNSDORF, SENIOR WHITE HOUSE REPORTER, THE WASHINGTON POST: It's a shoot-first-ask-questions-later situation. I mean, so many people have been talking about the legality of all of this. But really, the question is the enforcement.

I mean, we're starting to see lawsuits being filed, challenging his authority to look under the hood of the -- of the Treasury payment system. I know you're going to talk about later. But all -- you know, by the time that plays out in court, like Kara said, he's going to be moved on to a million things later.

[21:10:00]

COLLINS: Yes, he may not even be in the federal government still. If he's an SGE, he's got a 130 days at max. Maybe that can be renewed. I mean, it's not really clear who would say that can't happen again.

DASHA BURNS, WHITE HOUSE BUREAU CHIEF, POLITICO: Yes. I mean, it's the same flood-the-zone strategy that Trump is using in so many of these facets, and it's difficult for anyone to keep up, including, by the way, people inside of the White House, similar to what you just heard from Karoline Leavitt.

My question is, how much does Susie Wiles know about what he's doing day-to-day. It doesn't seem like there's a whole lot of cohesion, right now, with what Musk is doing, and the rest of the administration.

And also, I mean, I'm just hearing constantly, from my sources, that those two men are on a serious collision course. You have these two giant personalities. The Trump team is used to having one of those. They are used to cleaning up Trump's press problems. They are used to having Trump be the source of chaos. They're not really happy that there's another one of those guys that they now have to look out for.

COLLINS: Yes, well publicly, they're all defending, a lot of them are defending, I guess I should say, what Elon Musk is doing, in terms of carrying out with USAID, saying he's got a point when he's going after them and talking about how it's being run.

But are you hearing differently behind-the-scenes as well?

ARNSDORF: Yes, I mean, Trump and a lot of his advisers see a benefit to some distance between him and what Musk is doing. That Musk is kind of doing his dirty work, Musk is acting as a heat shield, doing some of these controversial things, that the pressure is on Musk, not on Trump.

Trump can take credit anytime something goes well, but he doesn't necessarily get his hands dirty with anything he doesn't want to be associated with.

BURNS: Trump was being asked all these questions today, in the Oval Office, a lot about the trade war that we thought was going to happen in three hours from now. It's now been paused, at least temporarily.

He was in there, and Rupert Murdoch happened to be sitting in the corner of the Oval Office. And as Trump was taking these questions, and signing these EOs, he started to go off on The Wall Street Journal's editorial, basically just calling this the dumbest trade war in American history.

You can see Rupert Murdoch there.

Trump said he wanted them to stay for his Oval Office signing.

But listen to what Trump had to say about that editorial, as the cameras were in the room.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I'm going to have to talk to him about that.

(LAUGHTER)

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: (inaudible) concern about the--

TRUMP: I've been right over the Wall Street Journal many times, I will tell you. I don't agree with him on some things. No, it's -- not only is it not dumb. You're going to see. You're going to see. Every single one of those countries is dying to make a deal. You know why? Because they're ripping us off.

(END VIDEO CLIP) COLLINS: Howard Lutnick is laughing. I don't think Trump was kidding, though, when he was -- his anger about this -- this editorial, and how they're -- how they were viewing his trade moves.

BURNS: No, not at all. I mean, we know how much he pays attention to those headlines, and, by the way, also watches the market.

I did ask a source today about whether The Wall Street Journal headline, whether seeing the Futures go down, had an impact on him, sort of backing off of this.

I got two different answers from two different people I talked to. One said, Absolutely. The other said, No, like he really believes that immigration and this drug crisis are his biggest mandates. And he spent the day with Laken Riley's family, and that shook him to the core. And he's not watching for what anyone else is doing. He wants to deliver for these families.

But we know, he's watching.

COLLINS: Yes, he kind of dismissed the stock market, when Jeff Zeleny was asking him there about it. But, I mean, he does care and value the stock market a lot. It's one of the biggest indicators, maybe, to him.

ARNSDORF: Well, it's another example of he's -- it's always thanks to him every time it goes up, but it's not his fault every time it goes down.

COLLINS: Isaac Arnsdorf. Dasha Burns. Great to have you both here. Thank you.

Up next. Speaking of that trade war with Canada and Mexico, put on hold for now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: How did the call with Trudeau go?

TRUMP: Say again?

COLLINS: How did the call with Trudeau go?

TRUMP: Very good.

COLLINS: Are you still doing the tariffs?

TRUMP: It went very well.

COLLINS: Are you still doing the tariffs tonight?

TRUMP: Watch.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: The answer to that is no. We'll tell you why. Also, the President's revenge campaign over January 6th seems to be ramping up as thousands of people with the FBI are bracing to potentially be fired.

[21:15:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: President Trump is declaring victory for now, in his trade standoffs with Mexico and Canada, with the President pausing, for at least the next month, on actions that could have dramatically increased prices for Americans on everything, from cars to avocados.

But Trump, the same person who, of course, on the cover of "The Art of the Deal," said this today about his goal, ultimately with Canada.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: What I'd like to see, Canada become our 51st state.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: That was after his first phone call with Canadian Prime Minister Trudeau, today, but before his second one. I was there in the East Room, shortly after that second call had ended.

Trump here, overall, seems to have won an agreement, where Canada is really going to do what it was already going to do. The Prime Minister saying this $1.3 billion border plan that he announced, back in December, is going to go into place.

And as for Mexico, this is how President Trump explained that result.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: They have agreed to put in 10,000 soldiers, permanently, like forever, 10,000 soldiers at their side of the border, and stop fentanyl and illegal aliens from coming into our country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: According to Mexico's Defense Ministry, there are already 15,000 troops, nearly, there on the border. It's a deployment that started in 2019.

My congressional source tonight is the Republican congressman, Warren Davidson, of Ohio.

And Congressman, it's great to have you here.

[21:20:00]

What does the U.S. have today that it did not have before this morning, from Canada or Mexico?

REP. WARREN DAVIDSON (R-OH): Well, look, President Trump is focused on, on trade.

And look, before I was in Congress, I was in manufacturing. And our manufacturing companies', the number one elephant in the room is China. And with Canada, with Mexico, with a number of Western Hemisphere countries, you see them continually doing more and more business with China, including Colombia.

So, what I think Trump is doing, right now, is setting conditions for everybody to be reminded to not take the United States of America for granted, and that we need to be your number one trading partner, and when the time comes, you work with us to deal with the -- with the challenge of China.

COLLINS: And the China tariffs are still going into effect. They are not getting a reprieve like Canada and Mexico are.

But did the White House, in your view, extract anything from Canada or Mexico, to call off this trade war?

DAVIDSON: Well, I think absolutely, he got -- he got both Sheinbaum and Trudeau to acknowledge, we need to help deal with fentanyl. We need to deal with the black market.

And the black market is wrecking our country. It's killing tens of thousands of Americans every year, far more than we've lost in many years in any kind of terrorist combat, any kind of thing like that. We're getting tens of thousands of Americans.

And the thing about fentanyl, it's not like people intentionally take fentanyl. They -- you know, we had a young lady who -- Lizzie Murphy. She took a -- she took a Xanax at a party. Not a great idea, but it's not supposed to kill you. It was laced with fentanyl. Dead at 21- years-old. And that's happening, thousands and thousands of families, all over the country.

COLLINS: Yes, no one's denying that, of course. I mean, it's ravaged hometowns. Everyone understands the fentanyl crisis. But one, the amount of fentanyl that comes from Canada is nowhere near the scale of the southern border. A lot of it comes through legal ports of entry.

But on this specifically, he called this off, saying that he had won concessions from both of them. But is there a tangible concession, in your view?

DAVIDSON: Yes, absolutely, he won the concessions. And part of it is--

COLLINS: But what is -- what's--

DAVIDSON: Part of it is -- part of it is--

COLLINS: What's new?

DAVIDSON: Well, it's a -- it's a commitment from Trudeau that wasn't there, to help with fentanyl, to help with the black market--

COLLINS: Well he announced the plan-- DAVIDSON: --and to secure the border.

COLLINS: He announced that plan, though, six weeks ago, back in December.

DAVIDSON: Well, at least he's reiterated it and formalized it.

And here's the thing. When you look at it, you say, Oh, well, why so much drama?

Well, because you very publicly put them in a position, where they're clearly going to do it.

And I think the other thing is, he's shaping electoral politics in Canada and Mexico as well. And look, we're in a position, where our ally to the north could be a much better ally, once Trudeau is not their leader.

COLLINS: Do you still want Congress to enact a law that would restrict a President's ability to unilaterally impose tariffs on any country?

DAVIDSON: Well, look, I introduced a bill in 2017 that was called the Global Trade Accountability Act.

COLLINS: Yes.

DAVIDSON: Article I of the Constitution gives the primary authority to Congress on tariffs. And there will be a time for that. The goal for that tariff thing is--

COLLINS: But that time is not now?

DAVIDSON: No, because we're in negotiations, right now. You can't have -- look, you can't have 535 members of Congress, 435 in the House, a 100 in the Senate, be part of the negotiations. But once you see some stability, and we confront China.

Look, when China became part of the World Trade Organization's? Bill Clinton's crowning achievement, right? He created this globalist trade regime. China said they were going to be a market economy.

But they're not. They steal intellectual property with a whole-of- government approach. They -- they dump, they block market access, they do all these things, and no one's confronted them. Donald Trump has. Joe Biden ignored the problem for four years. It was made worse.

COLLINS: Well Biden actually kept the -- a lot of--

DAVIDSON: He gives them -- he gives them tariffs, but he didn't do--

COLLINS: --lot of the tariffs in place on China.

DAVIDSON: He didn't do any negotiations to improve it.

COLLINS: Sure. But he left the -- he left the tariffs in place.

DAVIDSON: Donald Trump is going to aggressively improve our trade deal.

COLLINS: I'm just saying, he left -- he kept the Trump tariffs in place because they didn't feel like they could remove them.

On China and Elon Musk. And we've seen how he's kind of wielding his access and his influence inside the White House. He does have multiple Chinese government contracts. Does it bother you that he has access to the -- to the federal payment system for the U.S. Treasury?

DAVIDSON: I am euphoric that he finally has access to it. I mean, look, I'm the Chairman for the Subcommittee on National Security and Illicit Finance. The whole point of it is to just follow the money. So, if you want to solve this, you look at, Well, where is the money flowing?

Any agency that hasn't passed an audit forever, which is a lot of them, once DOGE has access to the network, suddenly they're like, Oh, crap. Now look at USAID. They're like, Well, yes, we kind of were funding this and that and everything else. Reorganization underway, that's now being directly controlled by the Secretary.

You look at just today too, CFPB, Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. Great title, good cause, but out of control, non-responsive to Congress. So, they're going to work with Congress, on how to shape that. But in the meantime, Secretary of Treasury is going to take control of that.

COLLINS: But the Secretary of the Treasury is Senate-confirmed, and has gone before and filed massive financial disclosures, and was pressed by senators in an advice and consent process.

Does it bother you, in any way, shape, or form, that Elon Musk, who is an unelected, the richest person on the planet, has access to all this information?

DAVIDSON: Well, he and his IT team have access to the information.

[21:25:00]

And let's be clear. The President of the United States has the authority to declassify anything, and share anything he wants, with whomever, right? And these people are acting on his behalf, at his request, as employees. The authority still is the President's, and in this case, the Secretary's. So he's made it clear while they have visibility--

COLLINS: Your answer is no, that it doesn't bother you?

DAVIDSON: No, I mean -- not only does it not bother me, I'm excited for it. Look, Trump 2.0 is way better than 1.0. And so far, in my opinion, the best sequel ever.

COLLINS: As we said, two weeks in, we will make sure -- we'll see if you stand by that statement.

Congressman Warren Davidson, thank you for coming in tonight. Up next. FBI employees have been ordered to reveal the roles they've played in doing their jobs, the January 6th investigations, as the Trump Justice Department is now weighing extraordinary mass firings, tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I think the FBI was a very corrupt institution, and I'm a -- I'm a victim of it in a true sense.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[21:30:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: After those sweeping pardons that President Trump signed on his first day in office, the people who committed crimes on January 6th are now walking free, as we know. But this comes as his administration is now scrutinizing and potentially preparing to fire the people who investigated them.

We are now four hours past a deadline for at least six senior FBI leaders to retire, resign or be fired. And now, the FBI is asking employees, in a written questionnaire that showed up in their inboxes over the weekend, to detail their roles in investigating January 6th.

A source tonight is the former FBI deputy director, John Pistole, who I should note, was also interviewed to potentially be the FBI director in Trump's first term.

And it's great to have you here.

If you're -- if you're looking at those senior firings, the six positions that we just mentioned, it would mean, really, the loss of the entire senior leadership team at the FBI. What sort of impact would that have on just the ability to function for the FBI?

JOHN PISTOLE, FORMER FBI DEPUTY DIRECTOR: Well, that's right, Kaitlan.

And just to distinguish. The firings at FBI headquarters of the Executive Assistant Director. So you have a director, deputy director, and then executive assistant directors. And then you have the field offices, 55 field offices around the country. And several of those persons were identified as being fired or to be -- to resign or to be fired.

And so, yes, it's a clear, I mean, it's almost a decapitation of the leadership. And the question is, without those leaders, then, to whom will those field office Agents in Charge, SAC, Special Agent in Charge, to whom will they report? And what does that do to the effectiveness and the efficiency of the FBI to do its job, which is to uphold and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

And with the current threat environment as high as it is, both from foreign adversaries, whether it's Iranians who want to get revenge against the U.S., for targeted killings, or whether it's domestic individuals, such as in New Orleans, where they commit heinous acts because of a grievance or because they have committed themselves to a jihadi organization, this is not the time to be implicating the effectiveness of the FBI, to protect the American citizens against those enemies, again, whether foreign or domestic.

So, it's a terrible message. It sends a chilling -- it has a chilling effect on anybody, not only currently in the FBI. But I can imagine, who'd want to apply to become an FBI agent or an analyst, if they think that they might be fired for simply doing their jobs as they have been instructed to do, when it's a lawful order.

COLLINS: Well and--

PISTOLE: If it's an unlawful order--

COLLINS: And -- but--

PISTOLE: --you can't do that, obviously.

COLLINS: Speaking of people doing their jobs. Rank-and-file agents are assigned to work on investigations. I know they can ask sometimes. But typically, they're just assigned to do this.

PISTOLE: Yes.

COLLINS: And this questionnaire that was sent to FBI employees over the weekend, ask them, this is according to The New York Times, if they collected evidence, provided support services, interviewed witnesses, executed search warrants, or testified at the trial for the January 6 rioters, the people who, over a 1,000 of them, pleaded guilty to those crimes.

I don't have to tell you. Those are basic activities of FBI employees.

You joined the FBI in 1983. Have you ever seen anything like this questionnaire?

PISTOLE: Nothing. It's extraordinarily -- and it's extraordinarily dangerous, I believe, because we're talking about thousands of FBI agents.

I don't think most people realize that even though it's an organization of maybe 37,000 employees, there's only about 13,500, let's say, current agents. And thousands, maybe 5,000, as many, 6,000 agents, had some role in the January 6 investigations, one of the largest, not the largest, investigations in the Bureau's history, since 1908.

And so the fact that everybody, all agents, are being asked to fill out this questionnaire and delineate their role just sends that -- it focuses everybody's attention away from the threats that I mentioned earlier, and unfortunately distracts them.

And as we know, from 9/11, where there was a failure of imagination, as the 9/11 Commission said. I don't think there's a failure of imagination. There's a failure of intimidation for acts that they have done, or may even do in the future, that would be political in nature, and there's no basis.

[21:35:00]

The FBI has about 300-plus federal statutes that they can have authorized investigations on. Investigating a political opponent is not one. Clearly, investigating an attack on the Capitol, to try to disrupt the certification of the election of 2020, that -- those are criminal offenses, and the people who were tried and convicted and sentenced accordingly.

COLLINS: Yes. I mean, some of these people, Trump's argument when he pardoned them, was that they had served enough time, or maybe they had too long of sentences, or aggressive prosecutions. But I mean, these -- some of them are on camera, beating up cops. And now, the people who prosecuted them for that are being investigated.

John Pistole, we'll see what happens. And if they are fired, if they are, we'll bring you back for your perspective. Thank you so much for that, as always.

PISTOLE: Thank you.

COLLINS: Up next tonight. My source is someone, who used to work at that federal agency that Elon Musk said was criminal, and wants to get rid of. What does it mean, though, for foreign policy, and also national security, as we are seeing Elon Musk work with Trump, to reshape the federal government.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: I've just learned what kind of employee Elon Musk is here, inside the federal government. He's what's known as a Special Government Employee, which means he's not really fully in the federal government, nor is he fully outside of it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[21:40:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: Tonight, the future of the U.S. government's leading humanitarian aid agency is in limbo, as President Trump argues it should have been shut down a long time ago.

And the person that he has put in charge of Government Efficiency is making this case for why USAID should be scrapped.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ELON MUSK, BUSINESSMAN AND UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL: As we dug into USAID, it became apparent that what we have here is, is not an apple with a worm in it, but we have actually just a ball of worms. If you've got an apple that's got a worm in it, maybe you can take the worm out. But if you've got actually just a ball of worms, it -- it's -- it's hopeless. And USAID is a ball of worms. There, there is no apple. And when there is no apple, that's, you've just got to basically get rid of the whole thing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Now, in his first term, Trump tried to cut USAID's budget, but then later actually asked for a $100 million more dollars for -- to help further his daughter Ivanka Trump's women initiatives that she had worked on, when she was inside the West Wing.

In this term, his administration has essentially shut down the Washington headquarters, overnight, put the independent agency, created by Congress, under the State Department's purview as well.

My source tonight is Dr. Atul Gawande, who led Global Health efforts at USAID under President Biden, and resigned, I should note, before President Trump took office.

Given what we've seen, with the top officials suspended, iced out of their systems, the headquarters virtually shuttered here in Washington, people told, Don't come in. Just what is your view, on what has happened in the last 24 hours?

DR. ATUL GAWANDE, FMR. ASSISTANT ADMINISTRATOR FOR GLOBAL HEALTH, USAID: This has been a takeover. But the takeover started more than a week ago. It started first with a freeze on funds, a pause.

And you have to understand, I'm a surgeon. I've -- overseeing this work. And I think of an operation and being told, Oh, pause halfway through, we'll be back in 90 days, we just want to review whether the hospital's working or not.

And that's what's happened here. These are programs that are global HIV programs, reaching 20 million people. You have 90 million women and children, who are reached in programs. And these -- there's people who are immediately hurt.

And now this -- then there was a purge, and now this attempt to seize the whole program, and shut it down, is enormously damaging. And my worry is, I don't know if they're ignorant or indifferent to the damage being done to America, and to millions of people around the world.

COLLINS: Well, and we've seen some Republicans, tonight, coming out and defending key parts of USAID.

Senator Bill Cassidy, who is also a doctor, from Louisiana, was talking about how the freeze on foreign assistance really affected PEPFAR, which is this program that was put in place under George W. Bush.

He posted, tonight -- because they said there was an exclusion to that funding, Bill Cassidy said, PEPFAR is the epitome of soft power. It's a Republican initiative. It's pro-life, pro-America, the most popular U.S. program in Africa. Because, obviously, it's credited with saving 20 million lives. He said that there are drugs that are still being withheld at clinics in Africa. This must be reversed immediately.

GAWANDE: Yes, those 20 million lives that are saved, these are 20 million people who are -- who cannot go without their medication, because it's keeping them alive. 6.5 million of those people are children. So, they're going without services, right now, as we speak

Simultaneously, this work oversees -- outbreaks going on around the world. We have three serious outbreaks going on, and all activities are frozen. We're not even watching bird flu, where we had monitoring in 49 countries. And we already have had one death from bird flu on our American soil.

COLLINS: There's been a lot of criticism over the agency. That's why Musk, and allies, and Trump, say that they are doing this, and that they're just essentially dismantling it. Part of it will still go under Secretary of State, Rubio's purview now, even though it's an independent agency, there's questions of the constitutionality of that.

But I want you to respond to something that the press secretary, Karoline Leavitt, said today, about what USAID was funding.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEAVITT: These are some of the insane priorities that that organization has been spending money on. $1.5 million to advance DEI in Serbia's workplaces. $70,000 for a production of a DEI musical in Ireland. $47,000 for a transgender opera in Colombia. $32,000 for a transgender comic book in Peru.

[21:45:00]

I don't know about you. But as an American taxpayer, I don't want my dollars going towards this crap.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GAWANDE: Well, number one, this is -- the diversity issue is one that we're having loud debates around. Every administration does a review, from top to bottom, about what policies they want or don't want. But you don't destroy the larger program that is doing enormous good around the world.

The two biggest parts of AID is humanitarian assistance in disasters, conflicts, wars, around the world, and then these global health programs that are saving millions of lives, touched hundreds of millions of people.

All -- you know, and our Global Health Budget, they talk about waste. The Global Health Budget is half the budget of my hospital where I do surgery. And it is reaching, as I said, hundreds of millions of people, and protecting the United States, and giving us influence in Africa and Asia, that China and Russia are celebrating the destruction of AID--

COLLINS: Because China does this--

GAWANDE: --that's happening now.

COLLINS: --for so many countries. It's not because they're trying to be nice. It's because they're trying to advance their influence.

GAWANDE: Yes, they have propaganda that for years have been arguing that this kind of claims that are spurious, that the DOGE folks are putting on USAID, are going on. And now, they finally achieve their goals with our own internal propaganda that's false.

COLLINS: Dr. Atul Gawande, thank you, as always, for your time and your experience.

GAWANDE: Thank you.

COLLINS: Up next. Here in Washington, recovery crews are raising the wreckage of that passenger jet that collided with an Army helicopter over the Potomac River. I'm going to be joined by someone who lost his wife and his daughter in this disaster, and how he wants to help honor their memories tonight.

[21:50:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: Tonight, a daunting recovery operation is underway at the scene of that midair collision between a passenger jet and a Black Hawk helicopter.

Crews are now in the painstaking process of lifting the wreckage from the waters of the Potomac, including one of the plane's engines, as you can see here. Not all of the victims have been recovered. It's still unclear tonight how long this process will take.

We are hearing from authorities that say they've identified 55 of the 67 people who were killed, including 28 athletes, coaches, friends and family associated with U.S. Figure Skating.

An unthinkable loss, that includes 12-year-old Brielle Beyer, and her mother, Justyna. Their husband and father, Andy Beyer, joins me now.

And Andy, it's hard to know where to even start. And let me just first say I'm so sorry, so incredibly sorry for your loss. Tell me what's going through your mind tonight.

ANDY BEYER, LOST WIFE AND DAUGHTER IN D.C. PLANE CRASH: Just -- just so many things. It's just -- just been so hard. It feels -- feels unreal. I go through these moments of like extreme, like sadness and -- and tears, and then I get flat and numb, and then I feel guilty that I'm not just crying all the time, you know? But it's just -- it's just been hard. It's been really hard.

COLLINS: And how did you -- I know you're from the area. How did you learn about what happened to their flight?

BEYER: Yes, well, I mean, we were -- we were supposed to pick them up, me and my son, like we did from these trips all the time. And we're waiting for them, nearby Reagan, in a parking lot. And we're texting with them, right before they were supposed to land. And the tracker said, landed. And texts went from blue to green. And then fire trucks started going by. And, I mean, at that point, I knew something was wrong.

Called someone that was able to confirm that their plane was in a crash. And I told my son. He came in the front seat with me. He had a really long cry. He let out just like there's -- No, you know, it was -- it really hurt. That's how we found out, right before anything was really official, you know? But we already knew.

COLLINS: I can't even imagine having to have that conversation with your young son in that -- in that moment, where you don't even, as a dad, have a few moments to process it by yourself.

BEYER: I mean, it's hard. Yes, I don't know what else to say about that. But yes, you're right. It was hard.

COLLINS: I see all the family pictures behind you. And you're just -- you're such a beautiful family. And I know Brielle's so special, so talented. The video of her figure skating, is just something else to watch.

What's it like being her dad?

[21:55:00]

BEYER: It was the most amazing gift that I could have asked for. I mean, all I ever wanted, when I was like a little kid, I remember, just wanting a family to love, you know? And we were -- we were living our dream. And she was like, the dream girl that you could ask for. My son is a dream son too.

She was just the dream girl, from the moment that I met her. And she just kept exceeding our expectations, from the time she was a baby, to the time she was reading chapter books at age three, to how she excelled in figure skating, made friendships, better than my wife ever could. She just was this social butterfly, smiled in the smallest moments. Just, she was a joy and a gift.

We never forgot that. We soaked it all in. People will tell you to make sure you -- we did soak it all in and -- but you just never think like something like this could happen to you, and that it could be taken away from you.

COLLINS: I couldn't believe it when I read that she overcame cancer as just a baby at 4-months-old.

BEYER: Yes, I mean, that was -- that was hard, because that was -- that was like waking up to a nightmare.

But at least there was hope then, you know? And we went through so many cycles of kind of like loss and then relief. You'd get a bad result, and then there was still hope. And then when she finally was more or less cleared, we just had this sense of relief.

And so, for this to happen after, we just didn't think anything so bad could ever happen again, you know? I mean, that cancer was like one in a 100,000. And you know no -- plane travel is supposed to be safe. So, yes.

COLLINS: I think a lot of people are going to be wondering just how you can even talk about this. I mean, just to be so in this moment of losing Justyna and Brielle. Why is it important for you to talk about them?

BEYER: I mean, they, like all the victims, but they -- they deserve to be remembered. They deserve to have their story known to the world. I mean, everyone dies, right? And they live on in through our memories. And I want people to have a memory of them, so that they live on. So that's why I want to share their story.

COLLINS: Thank you. Thank you for doing so, Andy. And I think everyone will be really touched to hear from you. So, thank you. Thank you for coming on to talk about that.

BEYER: Thank you for sharing their story. I could talk to you all day about them.

And I know we haven't talked about my wife, but she was the most wonderful mother. She wanted to make every moment special for the kids, and she did. She gave them those magic memories, you know? Brielle too. And we thought those would sustain her into adulthood, she'd be able to draw from them. So, it's really sad that she doesn't get to do that, because she deserved that. But she was wonderful, and she was my soulmate. I am going to miss her so much.

COLLINS: Yes, you are clearly both amazing parents, Andy. And I just want you to know that everyone is praying for you, and thinking of you, in this moment. I know that doesn't -- that doesn't help. But everyone is just really thinking of you guys in this moment. So thank you for joining me.

BEYER: I -- just, I want to say one last thing, if I can, which is the community and all my close friends and family, everyone has stepped up in such a big way, and it is what is keeping me going.

And I know I haven't been able to reach out to thank people, and I want to thank people for that, for everything that everyone is doing for me. It has been so helpful. It's the only thing keeping me going.

It's -- they've been helping me with my son. He's been having play dates, and so he can live in the moment, and it's -- it's really in -- thing that's saving us, right now. So thank you.

COLLINS: That's beautiful to hear. And thank you for saying that, Andy. Again, thank you, thank you so much.

BEYER: Thank you. COLLINS: Before we go tonight. A Philadelphia dad is calling his 10- year-old son a superhero, after he saved his younger sister from the flying debris, in that Philadelphia plane crash, on Friday night.

Andre Howard and his siblings were sitting in the back seat of the car, when that medevac jet crashed nearby. He dove on top of his 4- year-old sister sitting next to him, and covered her, as flames and metal debris flew into their car.

One of those fragments hit him, in the side of the head. And after he underwent surgery, doctors say that he is making progress in his recovery tonight. First thing that he asked, when he woke up? Whether he saved his sister.

Our hearts go out to them, and to all the seven people who were killed on Friday night.

[22:00:00]

Thank you so much for joining me.

"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" is up next.

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST, CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP: Tonight, a government smash and grab. Elon Musk's soldiers break down the digital doors to your data in the name of cleaning up the federal bureaucracy--