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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Defending DOGE: Musk & Trump Questioned On Aggressive Overhaul; Trump Repeats Gaza Plan: "We're Going To Take It"; Marc Fogel Lands In U.S. After Trump Secures Release. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired February 11, 2025 - 21:00 ET
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JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: And Anderson, farmers say, one of the issues that is so frustrating to them is trying to dispel all of the misinformation, they say, that is circulating among consumers. Going forward, they also say, knowing as much as they can, about the disease, is one of the best ways that they have to fight it.
Anderson.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Jason Carroll, thanks so much.
That's it for us. The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST: Straight from THE SOURCE tonight.
Elon Musk, taking questions for the first time since throwing the federal government, as he put it, into a wood chipper. Musk defending DOGE and himself, inside the Oval Office. My lead source was in the room.
Also, an American teacher who was wrongfully detained in Russia, for years, now free. And we are expecting to see him any moment at the White House.
Also, the war of words underway over the Gulf. Why the White House blocked a reporter from the Oval Office, today, and the free speech implications.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
I want to start with breaking news, this hour, because any moment, the American teacher, Marc Fogel, is about to land at Joint Base Andrews, back on U.S. soil for the first time in more than three years after he was wrongfully detained in Russia.
The White House announced this today, in a surprise statement, and called the deal an exchange, as we are waiting on more details, and to see how Marc Fogel is doing when he steps off that plane. He will later be going to the White House, where the President is expected to meet him, after he returns and arrives at the Diplomatic Reception Room there. The press corps is standing by. We are standing by.
Also joining me, right now, off the top, is President Trump's Special Envoy for Hostage Affairs, Adam Boehler, who helped negotiate the release of Marc Fogel. And I should note, he is also with the Secretary of State, Marco Rubio.
And it's great to have you both joining us. Obviously, this is such an exciting moment, for Marc Fogel's family, for his mother, I know.
And Adam, you posted that photo of him, on the plane, back home, earlier today, that everyone saw, really the first scene of him outside of Russia that we have seen.
(GRAPHIC IS SHOWN OF MARC FOGEL, AMERICAN FREED FROM RUSSIA)
COLLINS: Can you just walk us through how this happened, and how quickly this came together?
We're trying to get Adam Boehler back on the line, as you can hear there.
What they're doing, right now, is they are at Joint Base Andrews. They are waiting on the plane, that is carrying Marc Fogel, to land back.
It is a plane, I should note, that belongs to Steve Witkoff, Trump's Middle East envoy, who has been such a big part of dealing with the Middle East. And then was meeting with the King of Jordan, here in Washington, just earlier this week. And then, we heard word that he was in Russia. There was questions over why.
And then, it was announced by Trump's National Security Advisor, Mike Waltz, earlier today, who said that Marc Fogel was indeed going to be coming home, after this negotiation.
Such an exciting moment for his family, who was very upset when Marc Fogel was not included in the last release by Russia, the prisoner swap that happened when Evan Gershkovich, The Wall Street Journal reporter, came home.
And Adam, I think you're back on the phone with me. The question I had for you, in this -- in this moment, was just walk us through how this happened, and how quickly this came together.
ADAM BOEHLER, U.S. SPECIAL ENVOY FOR HOSTAGE AFFAIRS, NEGOTIATED RELEASE OF MARC FOGEL: Well, it was a major effort on behalf of Secretary Rubio, here with me, with Steve Witkoff, and others. And it came together very quickly, but that's because the President leaned in.
COLLINS: Secretary Rubio, can you just give us your thoughts on this?
MARCO RUBIO, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: Yes.
COLLINS: And what we know about how -- how Marc Fogel's doing, how his health is, right now?
RUBIO: Well, we'll find out soon enough. From all the reports, he's doing fine, he's doing well. Obviously, he's been in prison for three years. That's never good for anyone. But he seems to be in good health. And we'll learn more here in a second.
Sorry about all the adjusting.
BOEHLER: Yes, our technology -- our technology is not that great. Sorry.
RUBIO: But--
BOEHLER: But -- yes.
RUBIO: But just to add to what Adam said. This is a great team. Obviously, Steve Witkoff is phenomenal, and Adam and his shop (ph), and what they do, and the President.
Look, let's be fair and frank here. I mean, the President's made it a priority to bring home Americans. And I think this is the 10th American who has come home, since the President took office. And it's always a happy moment, when something like this happens. It's great for the family. We're excited to be a part of it.
COLLINS: Yes, it's such an exciting moment for his family. I know his mom is on the verge of turning 96, and she was talking about having that conversation with him, earlier today.
We've seen these swaps before. We heard Mike Waltz, the National Security Advisor, call it an exchange today. Did the U.S. or an ally release someone in exchange for Marc Fogel?
BOEHLER: Well, what happened here is there was consideration, one way or the other, for non-violent criminal. And so, the United States gave some consideration, although it wasn't linked one way or the other.
[21:05:00]
And so, at the end of the day, what we wanted to do here is look at a step-forward. And I think you see Russia making a step, for the President, for President Trump, based on his focus on hostages.
COLLINS: So, tell me what you mean by that, in terms of whether there was a direct exchange for this, or is it -- is it an agreement to have a conversation about releasing other people from either the U.S. or other nations?
BOEHLER: For us, it was the start. This was a unilateral decision. It means, for us, we make and give thoughts to other people that are non- violent from a Russia perspective. And so, it means the President's open to things now, because this was the first step, one way or the other.
COLLINS: OK. So, it's signaling a conversation for something to happen, but not an actual one-for-one exchange, as we've seen play out on the tarmac, in situations before. Do I have that right?
BOEHLER: Yes, that's correct. You won't see an exchange go on, right now. I think you will see the President give consideration if there are some non-violent people, or maybe there's no issues one way or the other. But you will not see a one-for-one thing happening at the same time. COLLINS: And Secretary Rubio, can you walk us through what was behind the decision to have Steve Witkoff, who we've seen playing a critical role in a lot of these foreign policy moments, go directly to Russia, instead of a third-party country? What should that -- what should that tell us?
RUBIO: Well, he went to pick up Marc Fogel. I mean, that's where he was. So, he went there to get him and bring him back. And we're grateful for his willingness to do it on his own airplane, on his own dime. It's a great service to this country.
And look, he's very talented. I mean, he's a very talented man, very savvy in business, and -- but he went over there to pick him up and bring him back. And we're grateful to him for what -- his willingness to do it.
And he's a great asset to the team and -- and I'd just go back. Look, the President has made it a priority. He's been in office now for three weeks. He's made it a priority to bring back as many Americans, who are overseas and detained. We've seen that focus. And I think there's a very positive thing.
And look, I think it's good, as well, for our ability to communicate with Russia. I mean, we'd like to see this war in Ukraine come to an end, a fair end, a fair peace, a just peace, an enduring peace.
But obviously, it's always good to see these things. They're not linked. But I do think it's a good sign that they're willing to be cooperative in this way. And obviously, it's a small step forward, they're not exactly linked together. But anytime an American's coming home, we should be excited about it, and we certainly are.
COLLINS: Yes, this is the first time we've seen a senior U.S. official, that we know of, that has gone to Russia since 2021, I believe, since before Russia invaded Ukraine.
So Secretary Rubio, in your role, what does this mean, and what does this signal about what could be next for negotiating it into that war, which obviously President Trump has talked about at length?
RUBIO: Well, there's -- even as we speak, there are multiple people involved. The Vice President, the Treasury Secretary, in Europe. I'll be there later this week. Secretary Hegseth's in Europe now.
So, we'll be talking to our European allies. We'll be talking to the Ukrainians. I'll be meeting with them later this week, so will the Vice President. I think Secretary -- Treasury Secretary Bessent is always -- going to be meeting with them as well.
So, there's a lot to engage here. This is a difficult conflict. It's a complicated conflict. And it's not just about bringing an end to it. The President's made clear, he wants to bring an end to it, because there's a lot of people dying, and a lot of destruction, but it's about a fair one, one in which Ukraine remains a country that's sovereign and independent, and we can bring an end to this very costly and destructive conflict. It's a long way to go between here and there. It's not going to be easy. And again, I don't want to claim that what's happening here, tonight, is in any way the first step towards that. But I do think it's a good sign that the Russians were willing to do something in this regard. And hopefully, we can build on that in the days to come.
COLLINS: What do you think made them willing to do this?
RUBIO: President Trump. I think that they want to have a relationship with him. And I think they want -- they understand that this is a president that comes from a position of strength, not a position of weakness, who's made his feelings pretty clear, especially over the last few weeks. So, I think, there's not a coincidence that we're seeing things happen under President Trump that were not possible under the previous administration.
So, like I said, look, there's a lot of hard work ahead to bring an end to that conflict, and deal with all the other things going on in the world, which are very complicated.
But tonight is a happy occasion, certainly for the Fogel family, and for so many who loved him, who were so worried about him for so long.
BOEHLER: And I just want to note, this is a unique circumstance, as Secretary Rubio's saying. This is a unilateral move. It follows unilateral moves by Venezuela, other countries. We have another American coming in tomorrow. And so, this is -- the President has made this a top priority, and he's got the A-Team on it. He's got Steve Witkoff on it. He's got Marco on it. He's got Waltz on it.
We're waiting for Waltz to join us right now, and the three of us will be there to welcome him. In the snow, we drove out, because nothing's more important than Americans, and bringing our Americans home, and we'll never forget them.
COLLINS: Who is the next American that's coming home?
BOEHLER: Well, that's going to be a surprise for tomorrow.
COLLINS: So the -- is it from Russia?
[21:10:00]
BOEHLER: I can't comment on where it's from. But you know, you'll have patience, you'll see tomorrow. You need other things for the viewers tomorrow too.
COLLINS: OK. So, we'll be waiting to see. I mean, obviously, we're hearing from -- we heard from Marc Fogel's mom, this morning, who said she got a call from him, he was at an airport telling her that he was coming home. An exciting moment.
Secretary Rubio, how directly involved was -- obviously, this is a decision that President Putin makes. How directly involved was he in this, in terms of getting this across the finish line? RUBIO: Well, I think, we all know enough about Russia to know that nothing happens there, of this magnitude, without President Putin being involved, and having some role to play in that regard, so.
Now, I won't comment on all the details of it, other than to say that we don't want to endanger the opportunity to communicate with them in the future. But I think that -- I think it's fair to say that it wouldn't have happened without him OK-ing it.
COLLINS: You did mention, there is a lot of movement, this week, happening between, this happening right now, and this announcement that we heard from you all at the White House today, to Secretary -- Treasury Secretary Bessent is going to Ukraine, as Trump confirmed today. Vice President Vance is going to be meeting with him. You said you're going to be meeting with him, Mr. Secretary.
How do you feel about the timeline of when this war could come to an end, given this?
RUBIO: Well, yes, I don't think anybody--
COLLINS: Should it be sooner than people (ph) expected?
RUBIO: I don't think anybody can assign a time or date to it. These are complicated. This is a conflict that's been going on for two years now. Obviously, there's a lot of complexities to it. So, I would hate to assign a timeline.
We want to see it end as soon as possible. We don't just want to see it end. We want to see it end in a way that's sustainable, meaning that we're not going to be back here, in two years, with a new war, and in a way that the Ukrainians retain their sovereignty and their national integrity. And so, I think -- but I wouldn't assign a timeline to it.
It's a priority. The President campaigned on ending this war, in a fair and just way. And obviously, we're going to have a lot of work to do. I hope it happens as soon as possible. But I can't give you a timeframe on it.
COLLINS: You sound optimistic, though.
RUBIO: Well, I mean, I'm optimistic, we're going to work really hard. At the end of the day, you've got some really complicated situations here. We're dealing with some pretty tough people. The Ukrainians have sacrificed a lot. The Russians and Putin have already committed a lot to this as well. It's not going to be easy to stop it.
But I'm optimistic that we're going to work harder than any administration's ever worked, to bring an end to this. The President's made it a priority. He campaigned on it and -- but it's not going to be easy. There's a lot of work (inaudible).
COLLINS: Yes.
Adam Boehler. Secretary of State, Marco Rubio. You're both at Joint Base Andrews, waiting on Marc Foley (ph) to come home, and just -- Marc Fogel to come home, and just seeing what this moment means, of course, in terms of his return for his family. I know that they are very happy tonight. Thank you for taking the time to hop on the phone with us.
RUBIO: Thanks.
BOEHLER: Thanks a lot.
COLLINS: Really appreciate it.
And also, joining me here is Roger Carstens, who is the former U.S. Special Envoy for Hostage Affairs, under President Trump and President Biden, who I should note, helped secure the release of several American prisoners out of Russia, including Brittney Griner, Evan Gershkovich, and Trevor Reed.
And Adam Boehler, who you saw there, at Joint Base Andrews, is essentially in the position that you were just in. What is it -- what is a moment like this like, when these Americans are coming home, after such a long time being detained wrongfully?
ROGER CARSTENS, FORMER SPECIAL PRESIDENTIAL ENVOY FOR HOSTAGE AFFAIRS: Yes, Kaitlan, first off, thanks for having me.
And secondly, a big shout-out to the team that just brought him back. Adam Boehler, a good friend of mine. Mike Waltz, good friend of mine. And the President. The Secretary of State, Rubio. And, of course, Steve Witkoff. Amazing work that they just did to bring these -- to bring Marc Foley (ph) out.
But the moment is very special. And I think I've said it before that it almost feels too personal to watch, when an American comes down a ramp from a plane, and steps foot on U.S. soil for the first time in years, and you watch them collide in with their loved ones, or else, meet a senior official like the president. And it's very emotional. It's very personal.
And there are times when I almost felt like I didn't want to watch, because you're witnessing something that was so special. And yet, I watched every time, because you work for these moments.
And the job that Adam has taken, it's a tough job that's going to be very emotionally draining, physically taxing. And so, to watch those victories that you get every now and then, they'll recharge the batteries, and that's important, because the job goes on.
There're still Americans out there, like in Russia, Ksenia Khavana, and we have Steve Hubbard, people that are waiting for the United States to find that magic that's going to take to get people loose.
COLLINS: Yes, and Adam Boehler mentioned there that there is another American, they are expecting to be released tomorrow. They obviously did not say who.
CARSTENS: Yes. COLLINS: These are very sensitive things, and we don't know if they're out of whatever -- wherever they are right now, in this moment.
But what did you make of what he said about the exchange that happened here? Mike Waltz referred to it as an exchange, and he said it essentially opened the door to a conversation, for people who they consider to be non-violent, to potentially be released. But was saying, essentially, this wasn't a one-for-one kind of--
CARSTENS: Yes.
COLLINS: --prisoner swap.
[21:15:00]
CARSTENS: Yes, I think that's very nuanced. If -- that can imagine perhaps that we get Fogel tonight, and then maybe in a few weeks or a few months, we release someone that we've taken a hard look at.
When the United States releases someone back to another country, usually, we've had the intelligence communities take a look at them, to see if they would have any residual threat to U.S. national security or our allies.
So, I imagine, if there is going to be someone that heads in the direction of Russia, that's held in a U.S. prison, that's going to be someone that, as you said, non-violent, and does not still pose a threat to the United States. Is that going to happen? I don't know. That seems like those are the indications. But I'd actually say that's pretty good negotiating.
COLLINS: Yes. And then the President was asked earlier, inside the Oval Office if -- he was asked if Russia gotten anything in return. I think he went what the U.S. got -- or what Russia got in return for this, essentially. I mean, that is the question here, because it's a difficult decision to make.
CARSTENS: Yes.
COLLINS: I mean, when Viktor Bout was released, it was criticized. But we heard from U.S. officials who said, at the time, when you were serving, It was kind of a necessary evil of a question to challenge.
CARSTENS: Yes, none of these negotiations are very easy. The other side holds the key to the jail cell, and you're always trying to find, what's it going to take?
I would say that we've probably seen that Russia and Venezuela, to my mind, are being very wise. They're trying to, perhaps, try to shape those initial foreign policy moves that might pay them great benefit, as time goes on. I would encourage the Taliban to do the same thing with the Americans that they're holding. But it's a wise move on their behalf. It's good for us. And at the end of the day, it brings Americans home. And that's always a good news story.
COLLINS: Are different American -- you know, when you were in, back on the flight, with these Americans, are they sometimes quiet? Are they talkative? I mean, what is it -- it must differ. But what is it like?
CARSTENS: I always think they're going to be quiet. Never. I mean, everyone wants to talk about what they went through.
I think I told you. Brittney Griner, we had to have a 17-hour flight, and we must have talked about 13 or 14 hours of that. Trevor Reed, same thing, he was in a COVID bubble, and I had a mask on, but we still found a way to communicate for about probably eight or nine hours. But it's fascinating to listen to these people, who are tasting freedom, and in some cases, have not even been allowed to speak English for a year or two prior.
So it's going to be -- it's a special trip. I hope Steve's enjoying it. It was nice to see Marc with, I think, probably a Scotch in his hand or a rum, but well-earned. And I think that's going to be something that Steve will never forget.
COLLINS: Yes, that picture that Adam Boehler posted, flying back on Steve Witkoff's plane. There it is. That's Marc Fogel.
(GRAPHIC IS SHOWN OF MARC FOGEL, AMERICAN FREED FROM RUSSIA)
CARSTENS: Beautiful.
COLLINS: About to be home, on U.S. soil, for the first time.
CARSTENS: That's frameable.
COLLINS: Yes, absolutely.
Roger Carstens, great to have you.
CARSTENS: Yes.
COLLINS: Thank you very much.
CARSTENS: It was good seeing you, thank you.
COLLINS: And up next. As we are waiting for Marc Fogel to be returned, we will be bringing that to you live here, so you'll be able to watch all of it.
Meanwhile, also today at the White House, he is known as a Special Government employee. He might be the most powerful one in history. Elon Musk took questions, for the first time since Trump took office. We're going to take you inside that Oval Office moment, what it was like, next.
[21:20:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: A remarkable scene played out, in front of the cameras, inside the Oval Office today, where the attention was just as focused on the person, standing next to the President, as it was on him. That's because all eyes were on Elon Musk, taking questions from reporters at length, as he stood next to the Resolute Desk, which Time Magazine recently portrayed as his, on that cover.
But today, with his son on his shoulders, and with the President sitting patiently and pretty quietly next to him, Elon Musk defended his overhaul of the federal government, and told everyone that he is perfectly fine with being probed.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ELON MUSK, DEPARTMENT OF GOVERNMENT EFFICIENCY: I fully expect to be scrutinized and get a daily proctology exam, basically. Might as well just camp out there. So, it's not like I think I can get away with something. I'll be scrutinized non-stop.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: That is, of course, certainly one way of putting it. The scrutiny, it certainly exists for Elon Musk, and for the rest of his DOGE team that has been somewhat secretive, as they have moved like a buzzsaw across the federal government in recent weeks.
It also exists because of the false claims that Musk himself has boosted about what they are doing, like the $50 million of condoms that the U.S. did not actually send to Gaza, despite that claim.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MUSK: First of all, some of the things that I say will be incorrect, and should be corrected. So nobody's going to bat a 1,000. I mean, any -- you know, we will make mistakes, but we'll act quickly to correct any mistakes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Of course, those are corrections that people would expect to be timely.
But there have also been questions raised about the conflict of interest, and the potential for that, that Musk appears to have, as he is targeting government agencies that also pay his companies, billions of dollars, which Musk argued today was not something to be concerned with.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MUSK: Transparency is what builds trust, not simply somebody asserting trust. So -- not somebody saying they are trustworthy, but transparency, so you can see everything that's going on. And then you can see, am I doing something that benefits one of my companies or not? It's totally obvious.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: It's not totally obvious to all. This comes, as one White House official told CNN, today, we will see Elon Musk file a financial disclosure form, but it is not expected to be made public. As the administration views it, he doesn't have to make one public, in his role as an unpaid Special Government employee.
As Musk, his DOGE squad, and the administration, are moving fast and breaking things in the process, as they say, the challenges to those moves are also making their way through the courts, amid questions about how the President and his administration will respond to them.
We've seen at least one federal judge this week accuse the administration of defying his ruling. But President Trump, when asked today, told reporters he won't.
[21:25:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Well, I always abide by the courts, and then I'll have to appeal it. But then what he's done is he's slowed down the momentum, and it gives crooked people more time to cover up the books. You know, if a person's crooked, and they get caught, other people see that, and all of a sudden it becomes harder later on, so.
MUSK: Yes.
TRUMP: Yes, the answer is, I always abide by the courts. Always abide by them. And will appeal.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My sources tonight.
Semafor's Shelby Talcott.
CNN Legal Analyst, Elliot Williams.
And also CNN's Jeff Zeleny, who is still at the White House tonight.
Shelby, let me start with you, because you were actually inside the Oval, as all of this was going on. I think reporters were surprised to see Elon Musk in the -- in the Oval today. What were your impressions from being inside the room?
SHELBY TALCOTT, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, SEMAFOR: This was really notable for a few reasons.
And I'm told that some of the reasons that they decided to have Elon Musk there was, in part, because there has been so much drama and mystery surrounding DOGE. So, this was sort of intended to ease the concerns, for him to be able to answer these questions himself.
It also showed that Elon is working in lockstep with Donald Trump, which, of course, has been a concern, and people have raised questions about that. So, this was designed around that.
And it was also designed around the executive order that the President ended up signing after we all left the room, which essentially gives DOGE more access. It directs DOGE to -- it directs agencies, to let DOGE limit the workforce effectively.
But it was really notable. This was the first time that Elon Musk was answering questions himself, about DOGE. And much of the reporting we have gotten has not been from Elon Musk himself. So, this was an extraordinary moment.
And it was an extraordinary moment, as well, to see President Trump sort of sitting back, and letting Elon Musk take all of these questions. And really, this was like an Elon Musk press conference, more so than it was the Donald Trump press conference.
COLLINS: Yes, which obviously in the Oval, it's typically the President, who is the one holding court, especially Trump, as he takes a lot of questions inside the Oval.
Jeff Zeleny, from the first moment, kind of, as Elon Musk was speaking, it seemed that this was not going to be your typical pool spray inside the Oval Office.
I want people to listen to when our colleague, in the press corps, Jeff Mason, asked a question about Elon Musk's detractors. This is what he said, immediately.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEFF MASON, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, REUTERS: Your detractors, Mr. Musk, including--
MUSK: I'm -- what?
MASON: --including a lot of Democrats...
MUSK: I have detractors?
MASON: You do, sir.
MUSK: I don't believe it.
MASON: -- say that you're orchestrating a hostile takeover of government and doing it in a non-transparent way. What's your response to that criticism?
MUSK: Well, first of all, you couldn't ask for a stronger mandate from the public. The public voted -- you know, to have a -- a majority of the public vote -- voting for President Trump. We've won the House. We won the Senate. The people voted for major government reform. There should be no doubt about that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Jeff, what did you make of the heat that Musk has gotten here? And since, a lot of it has focused on him and his team, and not necessarily the White House itself, or to President Trump himself.
JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Look, part of that has been by design. And our colleague, Jeff Mason, our friend from Reuters, was asking those questions.
And look, this has been something that the President has been eager to sort of watch from afar, I think, benefiting from the headlines of government is being trimmed back, but also keeping a bit of a distance in case there are any issues here.
But it was extraordinary to see them standing so close for so long. And Kaitlan, I was thinking back to the eve of the inauguration, when you and I were at a rally at the Capital One Arena, not far from here. We saw Elon Musk come on stage, talking for just a couple minutes. Three weeks later, he has actually the work to show for what he has been doing. And it was extraordinary to see him going on and seeing the President allow it, and in fact, wanted them to do it.
I'm told, the White House also is interested in shining a light on what Elon Musk has been doing, but also pushing back a bit, in a public relations effort, a campaign effort, if you will, to sort of respond to some of these illegal criticisms, of what is going on throughout the government. But so many unfounded claims as well that we do not have evidence for, if there is actually fraud being found.
And I thought it was really interesting what Elon Musk was saying there. The American people elected the House and the Senate. The House and Senate also have Oversight committees. Inspector generals were at all of these agencies. They have been fired. So, it's not like no one has been watching these. I mean, the government is set up with many structures to watch spending.
This is a whole different thing that we've never seen before. He's the richest man in the world. He's unelected. And he's clearly unrestrained, in terms of what the President wants him to do. That was so clear. The President has ordered him to do this, and they're both enjoying it immensely.
[21:30:00]
COLLINS: Yes, and a great point you make there, Jeff, because shortly after that happened, speaking of transparency and being fine with criticism, the Inspector General for USAID was fired--
ZELENY: Right.
COLLINS: --one day after issuing a report that was critical of the efforts that DOGE is undertaking.
And Elliot, on that front, I mean, that has been the question here of what this oversight is going to look like, because an inspector general is supposed to be a non-political watchdog, non-partisan, that can kind of speak truth to power in these moments of concerns.
That happened, as Trump was asked, and the biggest headline he made was, he was saying he will not defy a ruling from a federal judge, after a lot of Democrats were saying that we were on the precipice of him doing that. But then he did say, we will appeal. But he said appeals take so long.
What was your takeaway?
ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: I'm glad that he said that he would apply -- that he would adhere to court orders.
Look, the President is entitled to have whatever opinion he wants to have about courts. He can mock judges all he wants. But when those orders come down, it is incumbent upon the White House, and the President, to follow them. Now, they have a right to appeal. We'll see what they do there.
But it was a positive statement. In a sea of problematic statements, it was a very positive statement, today. The President said, Yes, I will adhere to court orders. That's the most we can hope for, right now, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: Elliot Williams. Shelby Talcott. Jeff Zeleny at the White House. Thank you all.
Up next here for us. President Trump said today, he has the authority by the U.S. to take Gaza. That was, as he was sitting next to the King of Jordan, who is vehemently opposed to his plan. What he said after leaving that meeting with Trump today.
[21:35:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: President Trump pushed his plan for the U.S. to take over Gaza after moving Palestinians out of it. All, as he sat next to a U.S. ally, who vehemently disagrees with him.
The King of Jordan chose his words carefully, and deflected at times, when he was asked directly if he was on board with the President's view that the millions of Palestinians, who live in Gaza, should be moved out, during this moment in the Oval Office today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: We're not going to have to buy. We're going to -- we're going to have Gaza. We don't have to buy. There's nothing to buy. We will have Gaza.
REPORTER: What does that mean?
TRUMP: No reason to buy. There is nothing to buy. It's Gaza. It's -- it's a war-torn area. We're going to take it. We're going to hold it. We're going to cherish it.
REPORTER: Mr. President, take it under what authority? It is sovereign territory.
TRUMP: Under the U.S. authority.
(END VIDEO CLIP) COLLINS: My source tonight is the former NATO Supreme Allied Commander, Admiral James Stavridis, whose responsibilities included Afghanistan, Libya, the Balkans, Syria and much more.
And it's great to have you here, Admiral.
Because after that happened, in the Oval Office, when the King was asked about Trump's plan, for the U.S. to be in control of Gaza, he said after that, Jordan maintains its steadfast position against the displacement of Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank.
What do you make of the position he's in here?
ADMIRAL JAMES STAVRIDIS (RET.), FORMER NATO SUPREME ALLIED COMMANDER, AUTHOR, "THE RESTLESS WAVE": Well, King Abdullah, a gracious, charming man, is never going to create a huge scene sitting in the Oval Office.
But there are clearly kind of three big problems with this idea.
Number one, the Palestinians themselves, they look at that land as sacred, very much the way the Israelis look at that land as sacred. They're not going to simply allow themselves to be removed.
Number two, the rest of the Arab world, in this case, notably the Jordanians, lot of tension in Jordan, between Palestinians, the Hashemite Arabs, very destabilizing.
And number three, Kaitlan, it's the resources. Who's going to pay for the reconstruction? Who's going to pay for the security forces? Who is going to help ultimately reconstruct it, bring the Palestinians back, if you've pushed them out?
These are three almost insurmountable odds against the idea of the United States simply taking over Gaza.
COLLINS: Yes. And of course, we've seen -- we saw the King talk today, about taking sick Palestinian children into Jordan.
STAVRIDIS: Yes.
COLLINS: There's already 2 million Palestinian refugees, who live in Jordan. So, it's not clear what would be different there.
But on this notion of the U.S. taking over Gaza. When you hear Trump say that it would be the U.S. authority to take it, that he wouldn't have to buy it, as he was responding to a question about that, what is your view of that? Do you know of any legal authority that that would -- that that would be?
STAVRIDIS: Of course not. And I think we have to kind of stack this alongside the other mergers and acquisitions, M&A process, the United States seems to be talking about.
Number one, Greenland. Are we going to take over Greenland?
Number two, the Panama Canal. Number three, is Canada going to become the 51st state? I can assure you that Canadians don't think so.
And number four, Gaza.
The idea that the United States is simply going to announce that it now owns new properties, around the world, as though we're purchasing them through a real estate conglomerate, just doesn't make a lot of sense.
COLLINS: Before we go, what are your thoughts on the ultimatum that Trump and Netanyahu have issued, saying Hamas needs to release the hostages by this Saturday. Trump saying all of them by this Saturday, or as he warned, all hell is going to break out. Do you think that that is something Hamas will be responsive to?
[21:40:00]
STAVRIDIS: Actually, I do. Hamas is kind of out of options, at this point. And for them to try and withhold this deal, crater this ceasefire, hold on to the remaining hostages, doesn't make a lot of sense for them. More importantly, their money funders, the Qataris are going to put immense pressure on them to step back in line with this deal.
So, I think it's unlikely the deal stops. I hope it does not. We need to get those hostages back. At the end of the day, I think, both President Trump and President Netanyahu -- Prime Minister Netanyahu, are right to put pressure on Hamas, who are simply using the release of these hostages as ongoing diabolical theater. Let's keep the pressure on. Let's get the hostages back.
COLLINS: Yes, that's certainly what their families want.
Admiral James Stavridis, I always appreciate your time. Thank you for joining. I should note, your novel, "The Restless Wave" is excellent. Everyone should read it. Thank you for your time tonight.
STAVRIDIS: Thanks, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: Up next. We'll turn to Capitol Hill, amid questions about Elon Musk and the President that they are making. How are they responding and struggling to figure out what is their role, given they control the power of the purse.
[21:45:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, President Trump says it's fine with him if Congress wants to approve Elon Musk spending cuts. But House Speaker, Mike Johnson, signaled that he's on board without that congressional approval.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): I've been asked so many times, Aren't you uncomfortable with this? No, I'm not. Because when Congress, for example, appropriates dollars, for the executive branch to use, we build in, not only in the spirit of the law, but in the letter of law, a broad amount of discretion for how that is used. There is a presupposition in America that the Commander-in-Chief is going to be a good steward of taxpayer dollars.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My political sources are here at the table with me tonight.
And Shermichael, as you listen to that. And Republicans control House and the Senate.
SHERMICHAEL SINGLETON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Yes.
COLLINS: Trump says he's willing to go to them for their approval. But, I mean, he -- no one -- none of the Republicans are really asking for it.
SINGLETON: I mean, clearly, the Speaker said it's not necessary.
I actually don't think it's a bad thing to give Republicans, the opportunity to approve this. We have races that are going to be coming up. We still have a very slim majority. I know Democrats are focused on some of those vulnerable Republican seats.
I would actually like to give Republicans, an opportunity, to go back to the districts, and say, Just like you have to manage your fiscal order in your own home, we're doing the same thing in Congress. I think that's a good political talking point.
COLLINS: I mean, how do Democrats deal with this, in the terms of they've talked about what Elon Musk is doing. They've talked about it. But is it -- is what Democrats are saying about Elon Musk breaking through with voters?
AMESHIA CROSS, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST, FORMER OBAMA CAMPAIGN ADVISER: I think so. And to that aspect, it's going far -- too far too fast. We saw that with the -- with the Trump executive orders, on the federal budget.
But we've seen more so with DOGE, where it is literally stripping apart federal agencies. We're hearing about 18-year-olds, 19-year- olds, sending emails that are knocking out whole staffs. In addition to Elon, again, not being an elected leader. We live in a representative democracy. Votes matter. Donald Trump was elected, Elon Musk was not.
I think that what we've seen with DOGE is very dramatic in a very short amount of time, a complete overhaul and restructuring of government systems. And that part is hitting people, especially when we talk about things like U.S. aid, and what that means for the progress of medicine, the progress of health care, when we see what they're planning on doing with the Department of Education, for instance.
We've seen time and time again, this unelected figure decide that he is basically going to do essentially what Congress does, and do it without having to have a single vote.
COLLINS: Which--
SINGLETON: I don't know if Democrats really have a strong or firm standing on that, particularly USAID. I mean, when you look at a lot of polling data, on where Americans stand on sending U.S. dollars to other countries, for whatever the case or issue may be, the numbers really support Republicans' argument that, Look, we need to keep some of this money domestically, and deal with our own issues.
If I'm Democrats, that's not the argument that I'm trying to make, again, especially if you're trying to potentially win back the House. I think Democrats got to be very careful.
Donald Trump was given, if you will, a mandate to sort of restructure things. People sort of expect that. You look at the polling data, Democrats, some, conservative-leaning, some right-leaning Independents, and pretty much every single Republican supports what the President-elect (ph) is doing for the most part. And so, I think you got to give him some lateral limits here, in terms of what he's doing.
CROSS: People did not vote for eradicating cancer research. They did not vote for ensuring that--
SINGLETON: That's fair point.
CROSS: --young children are not able to live to see even their teen years. They did not vote for--
SINGLETON: That's a -- now you got us.
CROSS: They did not vote for--
SINGLETON: But Democrats are really making that argument, though, Ameshia. That's the problem.
CROSS: I think that -- I agree. I think that Democrats, writ large, the party, does have some issues. And it's not only messaging, it's also who their messengers happen to be.
More state and local officials need to be speaking out-front, more people who actually run those support organizations, who depend on federal funding, to ensure that individuals have health care, have housing, are supporting our veterans -- our veterans, who are in need of a variety of things, as they return back to regular citizenry. Those are the people who need to be out front.
SINGLETON: Look, I think--
COLLINS: Well-- SINGLETON: --I think that's a fair argument that Ameshia is making. And as a Republican, I'm willing to debate that argument. But that's not the argument coming from the Democrats, which is why I still believe Republicans have the upper hand on this issue.
If you're Democrats, and you're saying, Well, wait a minute, here. We got all these great people and all these federal agencies. And Republicans are saying, Well if they're so great, how come we are spending so much money, wasting so much money? The American people are likely going to buy the argument coming from Republicans versus Democrats.
COLLINS: And we'll see, of course, how Democrats continue to message that. And Republicans seeming to be fine with it--
SINGLETON: Yes.
COLLINS: --even though they allocated that money, I should note.
Shermichael Singleton. Ameshia Cross. Great to have you both here tonight.
And breaking news. As we talked about at the beginning of the show, Marc Fogel, the White House tweeting this moments, just -- this picture, just moments ago, as you can see. That is the American, Marc Fogel. He just landed back on U.S. soil. He has been held in Russia, wrongfully detained, for more than three years.
[21:50:00]
And what is expected, tonight, is for him to not only go from getting off that plane, as you can see him there with, I believe that is the National Security Advisor, Mike Waltz on your left, and Adam Boehler, who we just spoke with at the top of the show, the President's Hostage Envoy, on your right.
He is now expected to go to the White House. He is going to be meeting with President Trump, our cameras are there, in a ceremony, any minute now. We'll bring that to you live, when it happens.
Up next here. At the White House, a moment that happened inside the Oval Office, today, where a reporter was blocked from entering an event. Why? And why that's a concerning precedent?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:55:00]
COLLINS: When reporters entered the Oval Office, for a joint appearance by President Trump, and Elon Musk, to defend their sweeping changes to the federal government, there were many reporters in the room, but not an Associated Press one.
That's because, according to The AP tonight, their outlet, which is a wire, meaning an AP reporter is included in all coverage of White House events, traditionally, was barred from the event, because The Associated Press does not refer to the Gulf of Mexico as the Gulf of America.
Trump signed an executive order renaming it the Gulf of America. But The AP's guidance, which is not only used by AP reporters, but many reporters across the nation, still recommends calling it by its historic name.
My source tonight is Axios Media Correspondent, Sara Fischer.
And Sara, Julie Pace is the Executive Editor of The Associated Press. She's been in those moments before, because she used to cover the White House.
She said, quote, "It is alarming that the Trump administration would punish AP for its independent journalism. Limiting our access to the Oval Office based on the content of AP's speech not only severely impedes the public's access to independent news, it plainly violates the First Amendment."
SARA FISCHER, CNN MEDIA ANALYST, SENIOR MEDIA REPORTER, AXIOS: Yes, and that's what a lot of press freedom groups are saying. They're saying, This sets a dangerous precedent, not just for reporters covering the White House, but for anybody covering people in power around the country.
But at the end of the day, this is within Trump's abilities, right now. It's not like he needs to go through Congress to pass a law that's going to strip funding, like what he needs to do with PBS and NPR. In this type of situation, he doesn't need permission or to pass a law from anybody, to be able to pull a journalist out of an Oval Office meeting.
I will say, though, Kaitlan, his first administration, this is something that went to court, when Donald Trump tried to block people on Twitter. The court made a precedent -- set a precedent, saying that that's a public space, and you can't block people from it.
So, these types of efforts, while there's no blatant rules, sometimes press freedom groups will sue, and try to challenge them.
COLLINS: Yes, and it's essentially because he's mad that they're not using Gulf of America.
And they explained why. They said, it's been the Gulf of Mexico for more than 400 years, and, as a global news agency that disseminates news around the world, they must ensure that names and geography are easily recognizable to all audiences. I mean, this isn't a political decision by The Associated Press to not reflect the executive order Trump signed.
FISCHER: Yes, but you can see where this is going. So first, this is going to start off with Gulf of Mexico. Next, they're going to take a look at the way that they label certain terrorist groups, or the way they talk about DEI policies, right?
This is them, setting a precedent for how they'll go after news companies, based on their editorial standards, or their practices, and use that as a weapon against them, like that's what you're going to expect from this playbook.
COLLINS: Yes, and what do you -- I mean, this isn't just an isolated incident. Of course, we've seen the kind of posture that Trump has taken, always to the media, but in recent weeks and months, with ABC, and obviously the legal action they pursued there, with CBS right now that they're in the middle of, in this moment.
FISCHER: But here's the thing. I have never seen press freedom groups draw such an outcry over this, in the past few weeks.
All those things are true. The FCC is probing PBS and NPR. Marjorie Taylor Greene's first hearing is going to be on the two public broadcasters. ABC settled. CBS is getting sued. I mean, there's a lot.
But this one in particular really got press advocates nerved. And I think the reason being is that it's not something, like I said, that Donald Trump has to try to get a law repealed, or go through a heavy legal system, in order to make damage. This is something he can do very easily. And, like I said before, it could be the start of a slippery slope.
COLLINS: Yes. What does this look like? What would you be watching for, over the next four years?
FISCHER: They said, they'd cancel subscriptions. They could go further and pull advertising. They're trying to, right now, go around Congress. They could try to get certain laws appealed. They could go to states, and say, Pull public notice funding, which would crush local newspapers. Like, I'm hesitant to say this on air, because I'm not trying to give people ideas, but this could be the tip of the iceberg.
COLLINS: Yes.
Sara Fischer, thank you for that reporting.
And as speaking, as someone with experience on this front, it is unacceptable to block a reporter from covering a White House event, simply because the administration doesn't like their coverage. A free press should have access to full coverage, and we stand with The Associated Press, in seeking that.
Tonight, as we end, we start -- how we started here, as we're expecting to see the freed American, Marc Fogel, back at the White House. He was wrongly detained in Russia, for more than three years.
(GRAPHIC IS SHOWN OF MARC FOGEL LANDING IN U.S. AFTER PRESIDENT TRUMP SECURES RELEASE)
COLLINS: And the White House tweeted this picture of him getting off a plane at Joint Base Andrews. From there, back on U.S. soil for the first time, and certainly a happy moment for his family, he is going to the White House here, where President Trump is waiting to greet him, and welcome him into the Diplomatic Reception Room.
We'll be following that closely. Stick with CNN. Thank you so much for joining me tonight.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" is up next.
[22:00:00]
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST, CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP: Tonight. Elon explains.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MUSK: They're going to get what they voted for.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: The head of DOGE defends his dismantling of the federal government.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MUSK: I have detractors?
MASON: You do, sir.
MUSK: I don't believe it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: And his reasons for doing it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: That present a conflict of interest for you?
MUSK: No.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
