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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Turmoil At DOJ: Six Resign Over Order To Drop NYC Mayor's Case; Trump: "I Trust" Putin On Ukraine; Trump Questions If McConnell Had Polio: "I Have No Idea." Aired 9-10p ET
Aired February 13, 2025 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: --and you guys are just -- you're doing incredible things, and it's such a sacrifice. And I appreciate talking to you. And I appreciate all you're doing. Thank you. It makes us all proud.
CMDR. SUNITA "SUNI" WILLIAMS, NASA ASTRONAUT: Anderson, it's been a pleasure, talking to you, today. And thank you so much for being interested in the International Space Station, and our Space Program. We have a lot of things to do in the future, and we're looking forward to having a bunch more space explorers join us.
CAPT. BARRY "BUTCH" WILMORE, NASA ASTRONAUT: Yes, thank you, Anderson.
COOPER: All right. You take care.
WILMORE: Thanks so much.
COOPER: Stay safe.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Never had somebody flip at the end of an interview. How great are they?
Thanks for watching. The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Straight from THE SOURCE tonight.
Explosive allegations from the now-former top federal prosecutor, in New York, resigning after refusing to drop charges against New York City mayor, Eric Adams, and what she's calling a quid pro quo, involving the top DOJ official, who previously was Trump's lawyer.
Plus, the President echoing the Kremlin's rationale for the war in Ukraine, but says that he trusts that President Putin wants peace.
And Mitch McConnell voting against the new Health secretary, RFK Jr., issuing a scathing statement about his anti-vaccine history, resulting in Trump doubting that McConnell actually had polio as a child.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
A private battle is exploding into public view, tonight, inside the Justice Department, as the top federal prosecutor in New York is out, and so are five other high-ranking DOJ officials.
All of them resigning after refusing to carry out an order, from Trump's acting Attorney General, Emil Bove, who, before this job, was a personal attorney of President Trump's. That order was to drop the corruption case against New York City mayor, Eric Adams.
The legal bombshell dropped, courtesy of Danielle Sassoon, who, until today, was the acting U.S. attorney for the powerful Southern District of New York.
In her resignation letter, to Attorney General Pam Bondi, she makes some explosive allegations against the acting number two at the DOJ. She alleges that Emil Bove wanted her office to drop the case against Mayor Adams, because the Mayor was going to help the White House with its immigration initiatives.
There was a meeting, last month, where she says, and I'm quoting from her resignation letter, now, Adams's attorneys repeatedly urged what amounted to a quid pro quo, indicating that Adams would be in a position to assist with the Department's enforcement priorities only if the indictment were dismissed.
That, and the subsequent order from the DOJ headquarters to drop the charges, crossed a red line for her, she says, especially because, as she writes in that letter, there was another charge being prepared against Adams for obstruction, based on evidence that Adams himself destroyed evidence. She also alleges that he told others to destroy evidence, and to lie to the FBI.
All of this pushing Sassoon beyond her oath, and leaving her, quote, Baffled by the rushed and superficial process by which this decision was reached.
Emil Bove issued the directive to dismiss this case anyway. And when she refused, the case was transferred to the Public Integrity section, here in Washington. But then two people who led that unit resigned, and three others have now followed tonight.
The President, meanwhile, was asked about this question, by CNN's Kevin Liptak today, in the Oval Office, and denied having anything to do with it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEVIN LIPTAK, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Did you personally request the Justice Department to drop that case?
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: No, I didn't. I know nothing about it. I did not.
That U.S. attorney was actually fired. I don't know if he or she resigned. But that U.S. attorney was fired.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Trump had been asked about this, and then later came back and said that she was fired.
I should note, our sources are telling CNN tonight that she resigned before Emil Bove could carry out the plans to fire her.
Adams' team is denying tonight that there was any deal, any kind of quid pro quo, saying, The idea that there was a quid pro quo is a, quote, "Total lie."
All this is coming as the Mayor, as you can see here, is sitting on the right side of that table. Across, on his -- on the left, that's Tom Homan, Trump's border czar. They met today, as they are making moves, in New York City, to allow immigration officers back into New York City jails.
My sources tonight are:
Shan Wu, former federal prosecutor.
Tom Dupree, former deputy Assistant Attorney General.
And Evan Perez, CNN's Senior Justice Correspondent.
Evan, I mean, people are calling this the Thursday Night Massacre--
EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yes.
COLLINS: --is how this is happening, here in Washington.
I was texting you earlier, in the press conference at the White House, to confirm it was three people who had resigned. And you said, Actually, now it's up to five.
What is happening behind closed doors tonight?
PEREZ: Yes, look, I mean, this is a full meltdown, and this is a spiraling crisis, for the Justice Department.
[21:05:00]
And look, there's a couple of goals here. One of the things that the President, and the Attorney General, have done in their opening days, is they're gutting public corruption prosecutions. They're scaling back the FCPA, which is the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act. They are putting a pause on a lot of investigations, and they're going to make it difficult to do public corruption cases. That much is clear.
We -- this is a part of a broader effort, right? And there's a reason. Donald Trump has been pursued by these people. These people, the public corruption prosecutors in particular, have been involved in some of these cases, and that's part of his annoyance with the Justice Department. But the thing that emerged today, that I found really extraordinary, was this new theory that we saw from Emil Bove, in his memo and his letter, which is essentially that it's improper to prosecute the Mayor of New York City, because it interferes with him being able to do his job, which is, again, look, it's a theory that worked kind of well for Trump, and his legal team, for prosecuting him. It kind of worked in the end.
But it is -- that has never been a rule for the Justice Department, with a mayor. I mean, as much as we love New York City, it's not the presidency.
COLLINS: Yes, and he's essentially arguing that this isn't -- because the merits of the case that they wanted dropped, it's--
PEREZ: Yes.
COLLINS: --more because of that.
Tom, Adams' attorney tonight, Alex Spiro, is denying these claims that this was a quid pro quo that happened here. I mean, this is, meeting, clearly, was remarkable. They said, I don't know what 'amounted to' the quid pro quo means... We were asked if the case had any bearing on national security and immigration enforcement, and we truthfully answered that it did.
But is that something that prosecutors at the Southern District of New York would take into consideration?
TOM DUPREE, FORMER DEPUTY ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL: No, look, I mean, it's whole thing. I mean, from my perspective, I don't like what happened. And I look at this, and I think I'm all for de-weaponizing the Justice Department. But the way that you de-weaponize the Justice Department is by taking politics out of the equation.
And what seems to have happened here, in these really extraordinary, remarkable dueling letters, from the Deputy Attorney General, and the former head of the prosecutor of the SDNY, it really lays out the story of what happened is that, from her perspective, the administration was expressly infusing a law enforcement decision with political considerations. Which is exactly the opposite of what Trump had campaigned on, and how he promised to reform the Justice Department.
That's why, as a rule of law conservative, what went down today is very disturbing.
COLLINS: Also, as a conservative, how do they attack the acting U.S. Attorney here. I mean, she has some pretty sterling conservative credentials.
DUPREE: She is gold -- the gold -- Scalia clerk.
PEREZ: He -- he -- Donald Trump (ph) elevated her.
(CROSSTALK) COLLINS: --conservative Republican.
DUPREE: Yes.
PEREZ: Donald Trump appointed her.
COLLINS: How did he elevate her?
PEREZ: He appointed her as the acting U.S. Attorney while Jay Clayton is awaiting his nomination, right? So, she was--
COLLINS: Who's going to be the permanent U.S. attorney--
PEREZ: Right.
COLLINS: --in that office.
PEREZ: She was named by Emil Bove, and the leadership at DOJ, because of her Republican and her conservative--
DUPREE: She is no bleeding-heart liberal.
PEREZ: She is not.
DUPREE: She is conservative as they come. We want people like Danielle Sassoon--
PEREZ: Yes.
DUPREE: --in the Justice Department.
COLLINS: OK.
DUPREE: I say that as a conservative.
COLLINS: So, Shan.
PEREZ: Absolutely.
COLLINS: On the other side of this, the Trump team would say, Well, she's ignoring the orders she got from main Justice. If you do that, you're going to be fired. I mean, what would you say to that?
SHAN WU, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR, FORMER COUNSEL TO THE ATTORNEY GENERAL: Their argument that she's being, quote, Insubordinate? That's true. She's not following the orders from on top. That's correct.
And she is really acting quite heroically. I mean, what distinguishes this from the Saturday Night Massacre in the Watergate era, that was the attorney general and deputy A.G., quitting. Those are like big wigs. They've got a future ahead of them.
These are the rank-and-file heart of DOJ's political corruption people standing up, and saying, I'll put my career on the line, I won't follow this order. Yes, they could have waited to be fired, instead if -- she couldn't wait to be fired rather than resigning. But this is an extraordinarily courageous effort, and it really shows how outrageous the behavior is.
COLLINS: Well, and for people who don't know Emil Bove, he was Trump's attorney on his personal team.
PEREZ: Right.
COLLINS: He represented him in the Manhattan hush money case. He was in there in court, questioning--
PEREZ: He came in kind of late. I mean, in 2022.
COLLINS: --questioning witnesses.
PEREZ: Correct.
COLLINS: Yes, he's a more recent addition to his team.
She is alleging in this letter that in that meeting they had, that one of her -- someone from her office, was taking notes.
PEREZ: Correct.
COLLINS: This is the meeting with Emil Bove, Eric Adams' legal team--
PEREZ: That's right.
COLLINS: --and her team. That he scolded them for taking notes, and then took them from them?
PEREZ: Right. She alleges in her -- in her letter, that at the end of it, my -- you know, Mr. Bove admonished a member of my team, who took notes during that meeting, and directed the collection of those notes at the end of the conclusion.
Essentially, they didn't want any record of that meeting, which were being taken by someone on her team, and they raised the question of whether there would be leaks.
Look, one of the things that I don't know, we don't -- this is a story that's going to continue spiraling. This is about also bringing to heel, SDNY. The Southern District of New York is known as the most independent office in the department, and that -- this is also as much about that, because the Justice Department really needs to control that, if they're going to trust prosecutors not to -- not to go rogue.
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COLLINS: Didn't Trump's about-to-be deputy A.G., Todd Blanche, work in SDNY?
PEREZ: That's right. Yes, right.
COLLINS: OK. So, they're very familiar with it.
PEREZ: Bove did -- Bove did as well.
WU: And Bove--
COLLINS: And Bove did as well.
DUPREE: Yes.
COLLINS: And so, technically, this case still has not been dropped, as far as I know.
DUPREE: It hasn't. And look, the other shoe's going to drop when they have to go before a judge, and explain why they're dismissing the case.
PEREZ: Yes. They'll have to find--
DUPREE: In other words--
WU: Find someone to drop it first.
DUPREE: Right. They got to find someone to drop it. Then they have to go to the judge and explain the circumstances.
WU: Yes.
DUPREE: So, this isn't over yet.
COLLINS: Can the judge say no?
DUPREE: So, well, ultimately the judge can say no, although, as a practical matter, though, it'd be exceedingly unusual.
PEREZ: I mean, they're--
DUPREE: I mean, if the Justice Department is saying, We're not going to prosecute?
PEREZ: Yes, we--
DUPREE: They're not going to prosecute.
PEREZ: We ran into this issue, during the first Trump administration, where Bill Barr dropped the case against Mike Flynn.
DUPREE: Mike Flynn.
PEREZ: And a judge really made it excruciatingly difficult and embarrassing for DOJ. He kind of put them through the wringer. But in the end, he did accept. At one point, he thought, or he said, he discussed appointing a special counsel--
WU: Right.
PEREZ: --that worked for the judge--
WU: Right.
PEREZ: --to bring the case. He ended up abandoning that plan. We could well see a replay of that here. But, in the end, I think the Justice Department really will win the -- the dismissal.
DUPREE: It will.
PEREZ: Yes.
DUPREE: It will.
COLLINS: But -- and Bove is saying he's going to conduct an investigation into this--
PEREZ: Sassoon.
COLLINS: --acting U.S. attorney--
WU: Right.
COLLINS: --for her behavior.
WU: And further subordinates, considering whether they--
(CROSSTALK)
COLLINS: Is that a real threat to her? How seriously would you take that?
WU: Well, the internal investigation is no threat to her at all, because she's gone. OPR can't really do anything to you once you leave the department.
DUPREE: But it's very likely they're going to find that she's within her standing.
PEREZ: Yes.
WU: Oh, no--
COLLINS: So could that embarrass--
WU: Absolutely.
PEREZ: That could end up -- that could end up--
COLLINS: --the leadership at the DOJ?
WU: Yes.
DUPREE: --backfiring on both.
WU: Yes, and that's part of the risk they face, as career employees taking this kind of stand. I mean, it's one thing for Bill Barr to be investigating, it's like, OK, have at it. But for these career people, there's a lot of embarrassment and attempt to shame them here. And it's really extraordinary. I mean, if you look at the tenor, the tone of Bove's response--
PEREZ: Yes. WU: --to her. I mean, it's just unbelievable that the Deputy Attorney General would get into this like questioning whether she understood her mentor, Scalia's views on things, saying, Your behavior shouldn't be romanticized by people.
I mean, it's obviously a performative thing for Trump. But it's really just -- having worked for an attorney general, dealt with deputy attorney generals, I can't tell you how out of the ordinary that kind of response is.
DUPREE: It truly is. I mean, they were sending a message on the most personal level possible--
WU: Yes.
DUPREE: --that they wanted to resonate, throughout the Justice Department--
WU: Yes.
DUPREE: --and, frankly, throughout the administration. The interesting thing about all of this also is, to some extent, it's a self-inflicted error, because Trump always had the opportunity, the option to pardon--
PEREZ: Right.
DUPREE: --Adams--
WU: Yes.
DUPREE: --if he wanted. In other words, instead of pardoning him, and making the case go away, he instead directed someone else to make the case go away by dismissing it. That's why they're in the hot water there.
And that's why the President was put on the spot today, when he was directly asked, Did you authorize this? And he said, I had nothing to do with this.
They could have avoided all of this by simply having--
PEREZ: Yes.
DUPREE: --Trump exercise his pardon power. But they chose not to do it.
COLLINS: And then he stepped back in--
PEREZ: And you also wonder--
COLLINS: --to say she was--
PEREZ: You also wonder whether--
COLLINS: --fired. WU: Right.
PEREZ: --really Eric Adams is worth it, right? No offense to the Mayor. But look, it's not -- he doesn't have the power to just rescind sanctuary policy. This is really what Trump wants, and that's in the hands of the City Council.
So, it's not clear that they're really -- I mean, what you saw today, which is he's going to house migrants at Rikers, it's about as much as he can deliver. What they really want is have the NYPD become an immigration arm, right?
WU: Yes.
PEREZ: An arm of DHS and immigration enforcement. And that's harder to do, because, A, New York City has a sanctuary policy. City Council controls that. So, they're going to war over Eric Adams. And I'm not sure what the -- whether all of this is worth that.
WU: Who, the governor could always just remove.
PEREZ: Correct.
COLLINS: Yes, which AOC is calling on Governor Hochul to do.
PEREZ: The Lieutenant Governor as well, I guess.
COLLINS: I mean, a remarkable set of developments here. We'll continue to follow this story closely, and if there's any other resignations.
Up next for us tonight. President Trump earlier asked about the war in Ukraine. A walk back from his Defense secretary, what he said yesterday. And also, does he trust President Putin, when it comes to negotiating an end to this war? We'll show you what he told me.
Also, Elon Musk met with the Indian Prime Minister Modi, who's in town. The question is, if he was doing that on the -- as the world's richest man, or as a Special Government employee.
[21:15:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: The French President called President Trump's return to office a, quote, "Electroshock," the same phrase he once used to describe Russia's invasion of Ukraine almost three years ago.
This comes, following President Trump's call with President Putin, the first confirmed call they've had since Trump took office.
And today, I directly asked him about his relationship in this term, with Russian president, Vladimir Putin.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Do you trust President Putin? TRUMP: I believe that -- yes, I believe that he would like to see something happen. I trust him on this subject. I think he'd like to see something happen. I think it could have happened a long time ago.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My source on this tonight is the Ambassador to Ukraine under Presidents Bush and Obama, and point person for Ukraine in the first Trump administration, Ambassador Bill Taylor.
And it's great to have you here, sir.
Because, obviously, if Putin did want to see something happen, he could have withdrawn his forces from Ukraine. But I wonder what you made of that answer in this moment that we're in, as Trump says, he is jumpstarting negotiations between his team, the Russians, and the Ukrainians.
WILLIAM TAYLOR, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO UKRAINE: Kaitlan, I do believe that Putin would like to be out of this war. I think he recognizes this was a bad mistake. If he had to do it again, he wouldn't do it. He has -- he's lost a -- not just the soldiers that he's lost, but he's lost the economy, his strength in NATO. This has been a strategic disaster for Putin.
[21:20:00]
And so, I believe President Trump, when he says that Putin wants to negotiate, and he wants to get out of this war.
COLLINS: Were you reassured at all? Because there have been some questions in Kyiv, I know, over the last 24 hours, about Ukraine having a seat at the table, for any of these talks, and what that would look like.
Did it reassure you when Trump told me that Ukraine will have a seat at the table, essentially?
TAYLOR: Absolutely.
And you're exactly right. There was a lot of anxiety in Kyiv. I talked to several people there. I talked to other people around Washington as well. A lot of anxiety about whether or not the Ukrainians, in particular, President Zelenskyy would be at the table.
And so, in answer to your question, I'm glad he said, President Trump said, Of course they're going to be there. And that's the right answer. Of course, they're going to be at the table.
COLLINS: Yes. And of course, still questions about what that looks like, because we heard Trump say today, he agrees with what his Defense secretary said, yesterday, that joining NATO is not likely for Ukraine, and neither is going back to those pre-2014 borders, when, obviously, Russia illegally annexed Crimea.
And for that, Russia was kicked out of the G8, that group of nations that is now known as the G7.
Trump told me today that he thinks Russia should rejoin. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Do you want to add Russia back to the G7, sir?
TRUMP: I'd love to have him back. I think it was a mistake to throw him out. Look, it's not a question of liking Russia or not liking Russia. It was the G8. And, you know, I've -- I said, What are you doing? You guys, all you talk about is Russia, and you -- they should be sitting at the table. I think Putin would love to be back.
Obama and a couple of other people made a mistake, and they got Russia out. It's very possible that if that was the G8, you wouldn't have had the problem with Ukraine.
COLLINS: They kicked them out, of course, because they illegally annexed Crimea. I mean, how would you have responded, if Russia invaded or took over land--
TRUMP: Well, you know, they took Crimea during--
COLLINS: --that wasn't theirs.
TRUMP: --Obama.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 2014.
TRUMP: They took -- they took. Well now they're looking to take the whole thing. Then they took a big chunk of land and people, as you know, during Bush. And now they're trying to take the whole thing during Biden. You know, the only one that didn't give them anything is Trump. They never took anything with Trump.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: What does it look like if Russia does rejoin the G7?
TAYLOR: So, the question about Russia joining any group is whether or not the Russians agree with and can contribute to the values and the purposes of the group.
So, the question for the Russians is not those values. As President Trump just said, they have invaded, they have taken, and they want more. He's exactly right. They are at -- the Russians are after all of Ukraine. And that is inconsistent with the way that the -- that the values that the G7 have.
COLLINS: What do you make of how -- how should President Zelenskyy handle this moment? Obviously, where Trump spoke to Putin, and then he spoke to Zelenskyy almost for longer, I think, if you exclude the translation. What does this moment mean for Zelenskyy, as he negotiates and navigates his relationship with Trump? TAYLOR: So, President Zelenskyy has had some experience with President Trump. And President Zelenskyy is a very keen observer of U.S. politics, and he has been very careful to not get into a partisan discussion.
President Zelenskyy understands that bipartisan support, in the United States, is very important to him, and he knows that President Trump is going to be very influential in these discussions.
So, President Zelenskyy is playing this carefully, and wants to be able to be sure that President Trump understands the values that the Ukrainians have, understands the importance of Ukrainians winning this war.
And President Trump wants to be a winner. And so, that's, I think, the way that the peace through strength, the winning the war, not being outplayed by Putin, is going to be a very important message from President Zelenskyy.
COLLINS: Do you think he is nervous, given we've heard Trump say what Ukraine will probably have to give up, but we have not heard what Putin will probably have to give up.
TAYLOR: This is why it's so important for what President Trump said, it's so important for Ukraine to be at the table. This discussion of what the Ukrainians can give, what the Ukrainians can demand, what the Ukrainians can expect, is going to be an important part of these negotiations. So, again, that's why it's so important for the Ukrainians to be a part of these negotiations, as President Trump has said today.
COLLINS: Ambassador Bill Taylor, we'll be watching it all very closely. Thank you for your expertise tonight.
TAYLOR: Thank you, Kaitlan. Good to be here.
[21:25:00]
COLLINS: Up next. Mitch McConnell just voted no, again, on another one of President Trump's most controversial Cabinet picks. He cited RFK's vaccine stance and his own childhood illness. How Trump is taking the news.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: He had polio, obviously. And he cited the vaccines as why.
TRUMP: I don't know -- I don't know anything about he had polio -- he had polio. And--
COLLINS: Are you doubting that he had polio?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) COLLINS: Today, there was only one Republican senator, who voted against Robert F. Kennedy Jr. to become the next Health and Human Services Secretary. That was Senator Mitch McConnell, who has now voted against three of President Trump's most controversial Cabinet nominees, more than any other Republican in the Senate.
[21:30:00]
In a statement, explaining why he would not support the longtime vaccine-skeptic, McConnell, who survived polio as a child, and what has been described as a defining moment in his life, said, quote, "Vaccines save millions of lives... I will not condone the re- litigation of proven cures, and neither will millions of Americans who credit their survival and quality of life to scientific miracles."
As Trump railed against McConnell today, for those no-votes, he also cast doubt on whether he had ever had polio.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Mitch McConnell has now voted against several of your nominees. He voted against RFK Jr. as the next Health secretary, citing conspiracy theories. What's your reaction to that?
TRUMP: Well, I feel sorry for Mitch.
He's not equipped mentally. He wasn't equipped 10 years ago, mentally, in my opinion. He'd let the Republican Party go to hell. If I didn't come along, the Republican Party wouldn't even exist right now.
I was the one that got him to drop out of the leadership position. So, he can't love me. But he's not voting against Bobby. He's voting against me. But that's all right. He endorsed me. You know, Mitch -- do you know that Mitch endorsed me, right?
COLLINS: Well, he did have polio.
TRUMP: You think that was easy?
COLLINS: And he--
TRUMP: What?
COLLINS: He had polio, obviously. And he cited the vaccines as why.
TRUMP: I don't know -- I don't know anything about he had polio -- he had polio. And--
COLLINS: Are you doubting that he had polio?
TRUMP: I have no idea if he had polio. All I can tell you about him is that he shouldn't have been leader. He knows that. He voted against Bobby. He votes against almost everything now. He's a, you know, very bitter guy.
(END VIDEO CLIP) COLLINS: Joining me now are my political sources.
Karen Finney is the former DNC communications director.
Ramesh Ponnuru, Editor of the National Review.
And Sarah Matthews, who once worked for former President Trump in his last term.
Sarah, when you see Trump casting doubt on something that is an incredibly well-known part of Mitch McConnell's biography, what does that -- I don't know, what goes through your mind? I don't even know what to ask, honestly.
SARAH MATTHEWS, FORMER TRUMP DEPUTY PRESS SECRETARY: I genuinely think there is a very real and realistic scenario that he didn't know, and that it -- or it slipped his brain. I'm sure a staffer told him, at one point.
COLLINS: Do you?
MATTHEWS: I really do think that maybe -- because that's how he kind of responds. When he gets asked things, he's like, Oh well, he could have had it. Like, and so it sounds like he's casting doubt. But very really, I don't know whether or not he knew.
But what I will say is that it's really interesting to me that we're villainizing Mitch McConnell now in the Republican Party for voting against unqualified nominees, when it's very clear to me that RFK Jr. is unfit for this job, lacks the qualifications, the personal character, and is dangerous and spreads conspiracy theories.
And so, I'm proud of Mitch McConnell for standing up, and standing on principle, and saying no to a lot of these nominees that are unfit. But then, the rest of the Republican Party is just falling in line, and it's just kind of disappointing to see, because, yes, now Trump is attacking a polio survivor, for voting against someone who has said that more people died from the polio vaccine than polio itself.
RAMESH PONNURU, EDITOR, NATIONAL REVIEW, COLUMNIST, THE WASHINGTON POST: Which is of course in the same statement, right?
COLLINS: Yes, which is obviously--
PONNURU: I mean, it's not just a baseless statement. It's crazy.
COLLINS: But Mitch McConnell was confined to a bed--
PONNURU: Yes.
COLLINS: --when he was 2-years-old. He went under -- underwent a very strict physical therapy regimen to deal with the polio--
PONNURU: Right.
COLLINS: --that he was suffering from. PONNURU: So apparently, he takes it personally.
Look, the thing that I thought really deserves some challenge was when Trump said, He's not voting against Bobby Kennedy, he's voting against me.
And the fact is, McConnell has voted for almost all of Trump's nominees. He has drawn the line at a few nominees that he thought were just unacceptable. Robert F. Kennedy Jr. was. And if it had been a secret ballot for the Senate confirmation vote, he would have had a lot of company.
The difference is, McConnell doesn't have anything to lose. He doesn't have the responsibility of being the party leader in the Senate anymore. And so, he felt free to vote the way that probably a lot of other senators would have voted, if they felt the same freedom.
KAREN FINNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER DNC COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: It felt more to me, though -- because Trump sometimes says this, if things are in the ether, he'll try to get ahead of it by saying something like, I know you are, but what am I, kind of junkyard dog style.
I'm not calling him a junkyard dog, people. Just for the Twitterers.
But the fact that he goes after McConnell, when the truth is he's there because of Mitch McConnell. Let's be very clear. Mitch McConnell is the one, who was lobbying Republican senators after January 6th, when they were trying to impeach him, which, by the way, if we're going to give him credit with regard to vaccines, he already knew that Trump was a crazy vaccine denier.
He saw the way he had -- despite having done so much to get the COVID vaccine, he then kind of built up the conspiracy theory. So, it's not like he didn't know that that's who he was long ago, and he still tried to -- you know, he basically saved Donald Trump, and he's a big part of why Trump is there.
So, I had this feeling of, I wonder if he's heard in the ether, people saying, Well, McConnell was the one who saved him from, when the impeachment was happening.
And so, instead, he flipped it back to say, Mitch McConnell is here because of me, right? Because I saved him, and I saved the Republican Party. Yes.
[21:35:00]
COLLINS: Well, he also has three Supreme Court justices, in part--
FINNEY: Yes.
COLLINS: --because of Mitch McConnell.
But I think, disagreeing with someone voting against your nominees. I mean, Trump expects loyalty from all Republicans, we know this. That's not surprising. But I think casting doubt on the polio aspect of this was what was genuinely surprising, given that is like--
PONNURU: And the mental -- and McConnell's mental acuity.
FINNEY: Yes.
COLLINS: And saying he was essentially mentally hurt.
PONNURU: He's talking about a Cabinet nominee who had brain worms, by his own admission.
MATTHEWS: Well, let's compare this to then -- I can't help but think, you know. So, obviously, we know Mitch McConnell stated in why he voted for -- or voted against this confirmation, was because of his personal story with polio.
But then I look at someone like Senator Bill Cassidy of Louisiana, who is a doctor himself. And he said that he had doubts about this nomination, and he still voted to confirm him.
And it's because he does have something to lose, to your point, where we know that the writing's on the wall, it seems like Mitch McConnell, he stepped down from his leadership role. He might not seek reelection, when his term comes to an end.
But someone like Bill Cassidy wants to have a political future. So, he feels like he has to vote for this nominee--
FINNEY: Right.
MATTHEWS: --who he knows to be dangerous and unqualified, but will do it anyways.
FINNEY: But there aren't--
COLLINS: Listen to what--
FINNEY: Yes.
COLLINS: --RFK Jr.
I want to hear your thoughts.
But listen to what RFK Jr. said today, after he was sworn in, inside the Oval Office. That's why this question was brought up. And here's what the new Health secretary had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR., UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES: I'm not going to take away anybody's vaccine. If people are happy with their vaccines, they ought to be able to get them. What we're going to do is give people good science. We don't have good safety studies on almost any of the vaccines.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: "We don't have good safety studies on almost any of the vaccines," I think.
FINNEY: Right. And again, that is a ludicrous statement. It is not true. But again, let's not excuse Donald Trump for the role that he has played as a vaccine sort of denier of sorts, and talking to us about not wearing masks, and denying the vaccines.
COLLINS: But he did lead Operation Warp Speed, which is--
FINNEY: Yes, but then--
COLLINS: --is touted as one of the biggest accomplishments of his administration.
FINNEY: And yet, he tries to have it both ways, right? Because at the same time, he then told people, Don't get vaccinated, and don't wear a mask. I mean--
MATTHEWS: I will say--
PONNURU: Well, RFK--
(CROSSTALK)
PONNURU: RFK's record is not a vaccine skeptic. It's a vaccine liar.
FINNEY: Yes.
PONNURU: It is somebody who is totally uninterested in the evidence, impervious to the evidence, when it's brought before him, just denies, denies, denies the scientific evidence.
MATTHEWS: Something else that I want to add on top of that too is, not only does he have a record of the vaccine lying. But he also has decades of being pro-abortion. So, to see almost all of these Senate Republicans then vote for him. I mean, I get a lot of flack for not being conservative enough anymore, because I speak out against Trump. But hey, you know what? They all voted for the guy who was supportive of abortion up until a full-term, so.
COLLINS: Yes.
PONNURU: Absolutely.
COLLINS: Which was, I think, a year ago that he said that.
Well, he is confirmed. He is now the next Health secretary. We will see what that era looks like.
Up next. Speaking of government employees. Elon Musk was tapped to cut government spending. He is also the world's richest man, not stepping away from his businesses. The President told me today, he is personally the one who is overseeing whether or not there are conflicts of interest for Elon Musk.
And this comes as Musk met one-on-one with a world leader, here in Washington today. What the world leader had to say about that meeting? Next.
[21:40:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Elon Musk's companies have raked in billions of dollars in government contracts, including nearly $20 billion between the Pentagon and NASA to SpaceX.
I asked President Trump today, given how much this has come up, now that Elon Musk is working in the government, as a Special Government employee, about whether or not he is concerned, and whether there will be any new contracts given and awarded to Musk and his companies during this time.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Will he secure any new government contracts while he is working on DOGE for you?
TRUMP: No, not if -- not if there's a conflict. If there's no conflict, I guess, what difference does it make? But we won't let him do any of the -- anything having to do with a contract.
COLLINS: Are you personally checking to make sure there's no conflicts of interest?
TRUMP: Yes, I am. I am.
COLLINS: That's -- he answers to you?
TRUMP: Sure, he does.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. President--
TRUMP: First of all, he wouldn't do it. And second of all, we're not going to let him do anything, where there's a conflict of interest.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Joining me tonight.
Veteran tech journalist, Kara Swisher.
And WIRED's Executive Editor, Brian Barrett, who has a lot of new exclusive reporting about Musk and DOGE and what's been happening.
So, it's great to have both of you here, joining me tonight on this.
KARA SWISHER, CNN CONTRIBUTOR, PODCAST HOST, "ON WITH KARA SWISHER" & "PIVOT": Thanks.
COLLINS: Kara, when you hear that answer on conflicts of interest, and just how this is being looked at, given how expansive the government contracts that Elon Musk has are, what goes through your mind? SWISHER: I don't believe them. I don't believe them at all. There's no checking here. And I think at one point, he was going to check it himself.
His portfolio is so wide, across the entire government, it would hard -- it would be hard to know where to start and where to begin. He's touching everything, and his businesses touch everything across the government. So, there's conflicts of interests everywhere. And it's kind of that Silicon Valley idea of no conflict, no interest. So, I don't believe him.
COLLINS: Well, Brian, obviously on this. His contracts with the federal government are pretty wide-ranging. Is there any way, based on your reporting that you've done on DOGE, and what these efforts have looked like, behind-the-scenes, to kind of check on this?
BRIAN BARRETT, EXECUTIVE EDITOR, WIRED: No, I -- we haven't seen anything that indicates that there's anything going on that would put any curbs on Elon Musk's activity, whether that's self-dealing with contracts, accessing data, or accessing data that might contain competitors' contracts.
I think that's another area when even it's not a direct conflict of interest, he can see all of the stuff that is going on. He has access to all of the procurement data that's going on, through his people at the GSA.
So, I think there are layers upon layers of conflict here. And the idea that anyone has any interest in doing anything about them, so far, seems sort of laughable on its face.
[21:45:00]
COLLINS: Well, and Kara, we heard from Elon Musk about what he's doing as he's gotten more power, in the last few days, with Trump signing that executive order about DOGE, and hiring practices in the federal government.
He was speaking to a conference, overnight, where he was arguing that entire government agencies need to be deleted, was the word he used.
SWISHER: Yes.
COLLINS: Saying that if he only left part of it behind, that he compared it to a weed that you have to pull the entire root out of the ground.
SWISHER: He did.
COLLINS: Obviously, a lot of that would require congressional action. But what stood out to you in those comments?
SWISHER: That that's exactly what's going to happen. Obviously, they run roughshod over any of these things. It was interesting. Weed is the new metaphor. The last one was ball of worms, I think, I believe, something like that. COLLINS: Yes.
SWISHER: I mean, they want to eliminate and destroy government institutions, and especially the ones that trouble them, or make -- you know, speaking of his businesses, that bother his businesses. So, you've noticed sort of a pattern of stuff that has concerned him, over the years. And he has been very vocal about regulation and everything else, for a long time.
But I think it's just he wants to -- he doesn't want to reform government by any means. He just wants to destroy it and remove it from their site, essentially, whether it's the Department of Education, whether it's Consumer Protection Bureaus, and things like that. CISA, which is -- which is very important to warning people about issues around foreign interference and et cetera. Doesn't matter, they just want to get rid of them, essentially.
COLLINS: Yes, CISA is obviously what came out and has talked about election security in the United States, and monitoring that all the time, not just around elections.
SWISHER: Yes.
COLLINS: And Brian, this is all coming as we're seeing Elon Musk is just kind of ever-present, it feels like. He was there as Trump was meeting with Prime Minister Modi of India today.
But before that, famously when world leaders come to Washington, they stay right across the street from the White House at what is known as the Blair House. And Elon Musk went and met with the Prime Minister there.
And Trump was asked in what capacity was Elon Musk sitting down with the Indian Prime Minister? This is what Trump said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Elon Musk met with Prime Minister Modi earlier today. Did he do so as an American CEO? Or did he do so as a representative of the U.S. government?
TRUMP: Are you talking about me?
REPORTER: No, Elon Musk.
TRUMP: Elon, I don't know he -- they met. And I assume, he wants to do business in India.
REPORTER: Does Modi know whether he's meeting with a CEO or meeting with a representative of your government?
TRUMP: Well, he's meeting with me in a little while, so I'm going to ask him that question, all right? I'll ask him that question.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Modi said later to reporters that he has known Elon Musk for a long time.
But what stood out to you in terms of Musk's position as the world's largest man, seeking business interest, obviously, but also working as an employee of the federal government to a degree now.
BARRETT: Yes, I guess, a couple of things.
One, I think it wasn't just Elon Musk. It was Elon Musk and a few of his kids, which we saw in the Oval Office as well. He brought his kid to work there. I think we're seeing a certain sense that he has, that he can sort of act with impunity, and treat all of these appearances like a family outing.
But the conflicts of interest here are staggering too. Starlink currently has -- is currently under review in India, trying to see if they can get enough satellite bandwidth to run their service. This is an active, ongoing negotiation.
And that conversation is very different, if you're talking to Elon Musk, the CEO, or if you're talking to Elon Musk, the person who is controlling vast swaths of the United States government. And, right now, it's the latter, and that's sort of a -- it's an uncomfortable thought that he has--
SWISHER: Yes.
BARRETT: --sort of bridged that divide so thoroughly.
COLLINS: Well, Kara, if we could just pull that picture back up of Musk's meeting with Modi.
SWISHER: Sure.
COLLINS: I mean, it's remarkable because it's the Indian delegation sitting there on the -- on the right side of the screen, when you look at the picture.
SWISHER: Yes.
COLLINS: And then on the left side, it's Elon Musk's children, mostly sitting there. It was a remarkable scene to see today.
SWISHER: Well, he can do -- he does whatever he wants. He's trying to sort of project a soft and squishy image, I guess, that he's nice daddy, versus cutting -- cutting all the government, essentially, or tough billionaire, or whatever. So, I assume he's just -- is performative on his part. And so, that's what he's doing, and it's being allowed.
And the access that you're talking about is the most important. Whether he brings his kids or not, that's just -- I think it's wrong for him to be showing off his kid's face in public. But that's just me, as a parent. But I think that he has to -- he gets access that other CEOs don't get, and that's what's critical here. Other CEOs are not allowed this kind of access.
COLLINS: Kara Swisher. Brian Barrett. Great to have you both here tonight. Thank you.
BARRETT: Thank you.
COLLINS: And speaking of Elon Musk, as he and the President are trying to reshape the federal government, we're going to speak to a Democrat in Congress. What are they planning to do about this? How do they respond? That's next.
[21:50:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: At least one member of Elon Musk's so-called Department of Government Efficiency, visited the IRS today, in Washington, as his team has gained new power and made its way to the federal government over the last several weeks.
This comes as scores of people, we are now learning, are losing their jobs, at federal agencies, with employees at the Department of Education, the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, and the Small Business Administration, going from being on paid leave to just being flat-out fired.
This is the first wave of President Trump and Elon Musk's efforts to drastically shrink the federal workforce. And it comes as the President's nominee for the Secretary of Education told senators, on Capitol Hill today, that she's on board with shutting down the department she is tasked to lead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LINDA MCMAHON, EDUCATION SECRETARY NOMINEE: And I am really all for the President's mission, which is to return education to the states.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My source, tonight, Florida Democratic congressman, Maxwell Frost.
And it's great to have you here, Congressman.
Because we're just listening to Linda McMahon there.
[21:55:00]
But on this effort, overall, on reducing the size of the federal government, we've seen the courts slow down parts of it, then reinstate it and allow it to move forward. As a member of Congress, do you believe that your party, that Congress, is doing enough, to oversee these decisions?
REP. MAXWELL FROST (D-FL): No, I think we need to be doing a lot more oversight, in terms of what DOGE is doing.
And that's part of the reason that a lot of my Democratic colleagues, and I, actually had to go to a lot of these institutions and departments. Over the past week, we've been to USAID, we've been to the Department of Education, Department of Treasury. Because as we reach out to the administration, what we're getting back is crickets. And as I speak with a lot of my colleagues, who have been in Congress for a long time, this is completely abnormal.
We should all be concerned about the fact that Elon Musk and his small team of DOGE coders have absolutely zero oversight. There's no one looking over the work they're doing, to make sure that, of course, there's no conflict of interest, but that it's also being done in the right way.
COLLINS: So, what needs to be done differently? Because we've seen, you yourself, have gone, in front of some of these departments and agencies, as you've noted there. But, I mean, that hasn't really slowed Elon Musk down much, if at all.
FROST: The President needs to cease this entire DOGE operation. If he wants to make drastic cuts to the federal government, if he wants to move forward with this Project 2025 agenda, he needs to come to the United States Congress. But there's a reason why he's not coming to Congress, and it's because he knows that he doesn't have the votes.
Members of his party are not going to vote to get rid of the Department of Education, which means, and a lot of people don't know what this means, getting rid of things like Head Start, getting rid of grants that help feed children in schools, getting rid of grants that help us educate people in rural communities that are more disconnected from their school district. Special Education Programs. These are the programs that are at risk with DOGE and Donald Trump.
And so, what we really need, as well, is some of these congressional Republicans, who purport to be moderates, to step up, so we, as Congress, can do something.
But on the Democratic side, we're going to continue to fight hard, work with groups on the outside, on litigation. We have a new taskforce, a rapid response taskforce, to make sure the American people know exactly what's going on, and what programs are being targeted.
A lot of times, people don't understand exactly what a department does. But they know what Head Start is, they know what the school lunch program is, and that's what--
COLLINS: Yes.
FROST: --we need to keep talking about.
COLLINS: I think some Republicans -- I don't know, Trump might get the votes. I think he just, maybe he doesn't feel the need to go to Congress, because they're not even trying to say that they would like oversight of this from a lot of Republicans.
And what's clear is that Democrats disagree with how Trump and Musk are going out, and making cuts, and trying to reduce bloat in the federal government. But do you think, given, we've seen American people say -- the American people say, Yes, I'm on board with that. Do you think your party has offered enough, or any alternatives, for how to reduce waste in the federal government?
FROST: Yes, we have. We've been talking about this, over the last several years, especially on the House Oversight Committee. But there's a way that you do that.
We're all about efficiency. We all want to make sure government is efficient. We -- I've spoken about this, personally, the fact that we need to innovate and modernize a lot of our systems in government.
But the way he's doing this is not the right way. What he's looking to do is not make government more efficient for America. He's looking to come in, with Elon Musk, and do this corporate slash-and-burn technique -- technique, which doesn't work, and which will make our country less safe.
And the other thing I want to say is, on the Oversight Committee, about a week ago, we had Governor Reynolds from Iowa in. They brought her in to pump up this whole DOGE-Trump effort, because apparently she did a government efficiency effort in Iowa.
During the whole time, there's two things she kept talking about. The fact that she went to her legislature, and passed legislation, to make the biggest changes. And the second part, which I thought was interesting, is she was so excited and proud, to talk about the fact that she didn't have to fire a single person, to make that government more efficient.
So, every case study, even with Republicans at the state level, shows us that this is being done in the wrong way. And I believe, and many of us believe, that it's being set up to make our government less responsive to a lot of the corporate price fixing, to make sure that we slash--
COLLINS: Yes.
FROST: --the parts of the IRS that were focused on tax cheats, and different things like that. And it's the same game--
COLLINS: Can I ask you--
FROST: --of the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer.
COLLINS: In terms of who's being the face of this, for your party, do you think that your party has chosen the right people? I mean, there has been some criticism and mocking of who's been out there, protesting and being the voice here.
FROST: Well, we're all elected members of Congress, right? Something I always tell people, we all represent the same amount of people, and we're all leaders in this fight. So, for me, it's less about what specific leaders have been chosen, specific positions in the caucus. More the fact that we all have a duty to fight, on behalf of our constituents.
[22:00:00]
And, like I've been telling people, get caught fighting. Because this is something that people are very concerned about. This is our democracy. And that they're programs that we have fought for, for generations, to make sure that we can all be safe, that people with special education are able to go get that, that people in rural communities have the education they deserve.
All these programs are at risk, right now, because an unelected billionaire has been given unfettered access to the government with absolutely zero accountability.
COLLINS: Congressman Maxwell Frost, keep us updated on your efforts. Thank you for joining us.
Thank you all so much for joining us.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" is up next.
