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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Canada & Europe Hit Back With Tariffs In Escalating Trade War; Judge Orders Govt. To Give Pro-Palestinian Activist Access To Attorneys While Held At Louisiana Immigration Facility; Trump Admin To Roll Back More Than A Dozen Major Climate Policies In Rapid-Fire Deregulation Spree. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired March 12, 2025 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: --well, SpaceX says it has another window to launch the mission on Thursday night.
CNN's Original Series, "Twitter: Breaking The Bird," this Sunday at 10:00 p.m. Eastern. That is the first time that's going to air. Hope you watch it. Kara Swisher, as we said, who was a guest earlier on, is prominently featured in that.
That's it for us. The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Straight from THE SOURCE tonight.
The Allies striking back against Trump's tariffs with billions in tariffs of their own. As Americans pay -- prepare to pay the price, I'll speak to his top Republican senator about that in moments.
Also tonight, Vladimir Putin is decked out in his military fatigues, something you don't see every day, as he visits Russian troops on the front lines of the war in Ukraine. The question is, is his covered-in- camo fashion statement a bad sign, potentially for hopes of a quick ceasefire.
And also, what the judge ruled today in the Trump administration's fight to deport that pro-Palestinian activist, now stuck in legal limbo. Mahmoud Khalil's attorney is here, and I'll speak with her live in moments.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
Tonight, at the White House, where I spent most of the day reporting, President Trump is plotting his next move, and planning to retaliate against U.S. allies who just retaliated against him.
Canada and the European Union hitting the U.S. with tens of billions of tariffs on U.S. goods, escalating a trade war that could derail the U.S. economy with really, right now, no signs of an off-ramp.
If and when the President follows through, that would be in addition to those 25 percent tariffs on all steel and aluminum imported into the United States, which the President is arguing will level the playing field for manufacturing here in the U.S.
But it could also drive up prices, undermining the good signs that we saw on today's inflation report, showing that it slowed in February for the first time since September.
If your head is spinning from watching all the economic news, you're not alone. When he was asked by a reporter, in the Oval Office, today, if what he's doing is inconsistent, the President responded with a hard-no.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I have the right to adjust.
It's called flexibility. It's not called inconsistency. It's called flexibility.
But there will be very little flexibility once we start. April 2nd is going to be a very big day for the United States of America. The United States of America is going to take back a lot of what was stolen from it by other countries.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now, what you could not see in that tight shot that was just showing the President sitting there, the Irish Prime Minister, who is seated to his right. He's in town for the annual St. Patrick's Day celebration at the White House. More on that celebration and that conversation between the two of them in a moment.
But inside the Oval Office, the President was arguing that there shouldn't really be any backlash to his hardline tariff plans.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Whatever they charge us, we're charging them. Nobody can complain about that, whatever it is.
I don't know why people get upset about that, because there's nothing more fair than that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: But it may not be just other nations that are, quote, Complaining.
As the President says he's playing the long game, American voters seem to be getting more worried about what those tariffs are going to mean for them, specifically, as they're waiting for the President to fulfill his many economic promises.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SHANE CUSICK, SMALL BUSINESS OWNER: The tariff's kind of like, they're on, they're off, they're on, they're off. It's -- it's hard to sort of forecast.
And the big tariff, yes, we have to increase the prices to cover that extra cost, which -- which means, unfortunately, you know, the cost of the bikes goes up, and our customers are paying more for the bikes.
JEFF WARE, PRESIDENT, RESURGENCE BREWING COMPANY: We've been getting hit from all angles. All of our cans either come from Canada, or the aluminum being used to make the cans come from Canada. So we're going to get hit with it one way or another.
We're looking at probably at 25 percent, a one to two cents per can increase. If we go to 50 percent, it's going to double those numbers. And, you know, there's only so much we can eat before we have to push that off to the consumer on the shelf.
MARY KEITH, CO-OWNER, GLOBAL PRODUCT SOURCING: It's going to have to be a delicate dance, and we're certainly concerned about rising prices, because we have to pass them along to our customers.
DOUG FULLER, FARMER: They aren't good for me. And who could blame -- who could blame them putting reciprocal tariffs on us, you know? It's just a -- it's just a (bleep) match, you know? And nobody's going to win.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My lead source tonight, a Republican senator, Markwayne Mullin of Oklahoma.
And Senator, it's great to have you here.
You heard those voters themselves.
SEN. MARKWAYNE MULLIN (R-OK): Right.
COLLINS: A few expletives in some of those situations.
[21:05:00]
Your own home state imports more than $7 billion in oil, as you know, and more than $49 million in natural gas coming from Canada. Now, with the new tariffs going in place, and what this is going to look like, what should they be preparing for? Is it going to be a difficult period for them, over the next few months?
MULLIN: One -- one of the reasons why there's so much importing from Canada is because we have Cushing, where we store it, so we're actually not -- we're holding it as it transports on to refineries in Houston. So we're not just necessarily importing that.
It is a concern to us.
COLLINS: Right. And it goes to -- it speaks to your economic development. It's people's jobs, and whatnot.
MULLIN: Yes, well, yes. But we're just holding it, as it goes through. We're not -- we're not actually passing on to any consumers. We're just holding it in storage tanks, in Cushing, Oklahoma. It's across lines of -- or the pipeline intersection of the world, basically is what we call it, and then it goes on. But that's beside the point.
What we do understand, though, is there is cost. It's going to be here. There's two things that's happening here.
You have the reciprocal tariffs that are on other countries, especially Europe, that has been taken advantage of our economy, because we allow them to rebuild after World War II, we did that. We've never actually corrected that.
And then you've got national security issues that's going on between Canada and Mexico. They have illegal activities through trafficking of drugs, and trafficking of humans, coming across our northern and southern border.
How this whole thing started was, is we asked him for help. You remember Trudeau, he responded by saying that, You should worry about your own streets and not just try to come after us and try to have us fix your problem.
The problem is the illegal activity is coming from their countries. They're openly allowing the cartels to work in their countries. What we've asked, and what President Trump asked--
COLLINS: But--
MULLIN: --is, Help us, if -- We will partner with you. We're not asking you to do this yourself. Help us stop the illegal activities coming across our northern and southern border.
COLLINS: Well, I don't know about the word, openly. But that is something that we heard from Trump and Canadian officials.
But then we've also spoken with Canadian officials, talking directly to the -- to the White House, who say, One day, it's the fentanyl numbers, one day, it's the dairy tariffs, which haven't even actually hit the market, the USMCA agreement that Trump negotiated. One day, it's that -- it's the trade deficit. And Trump's pulling back without some of those things being addressed. So they're saying, essentially, it's mixed signals, and we don't know exactly what barometer we're supposed to be hitting here.
MULLIN: Well, I get what they're saying. But I can tell you where we've been at. We've been laser-focused on national security, and the President has been laser-focused on securing our borders.
Just in the last seven days, Oklahoma has apprehended five pounds of fentanyl. Now, five pounds doesn't sound like a lot.
COLLINS: No, it's a lot.
MULLIN: But two -- but two--
COLLINS: Because obviously a little bit of fentanyl can be devastating.
MULLIN: Yes, but 2.2 pounds of fentanyl is enough to kill--
COLLINS: Yes.
MULLIN: --500,000 people. That's just in Oklahoma alone. So this has happened to every one of our cities.
If they don't want to partner with us on national security, then how else do we get their attention? Like I said, we're not asking them to do it alone. We're saying, Let us partner with you to go after the cartels that's getting their illegal activity across our border.
COLLINS: Yes. But you are talking about just Canada. I mean, this is going across the board on steel and aluminum, and it's about to go across the board even further, come April 2nd--
MULLIN: Right.
COLLINS: --according to the President.
He argued today that there's not inconsistency here. He said that he needed to have flexibility.
MULLIN: Right.
COLLINS: But if you're a business owner, that is inconsistency and its uncertainty. They don't know what's hitting what and when--
MULLIN: Sure.
COLLINS: --and if the threats are real or not.
MULLIN: Well--
COLLINS: I mean, what are you supposed to do if you're a business owner here?
MULLIN: So, the first time the President put this on, Canada came in and said, Listen, we're going to put $1.3 billion worth of technology on our border. And Mexico came and said, We're going to put 2-- 10,000 Marines on our southern border and work with you on it. The President said, OK, we'll stop, we'll pause that for 30 days and see how it goes.
The problem was is they did put the Marines there that has helped with the human trafficking. But the drug trafficking is still flowing in, and we're not going after the cartels. All it stopped is the flow coming across one part of the border, and now they've pushed it someplace else. But we're saying, Let's go after the bad actors. They're refusing to do that.
COLLINS: But if they're working with you, and you still put that -- but the -- you say, Mexico is -- is not refusing. They just sent all these--
MULLIN: Well--
COLLINS: --cartel leaders to the United States.
MULLIN: --they said 26 people that they were -- that we already had -- had the intel on them, and told them to go pick them up. We were trying to get them picked up--
COLLINS: But that was a big deal--
(CROSSTALK)
MULLIN: It was a big deal, but there's more that can be done.
And the same thing on this -- on the northern border, what the Canadians did is they put technology there. They showed us where the illegal activity was crossing.
But like, OK, if you know where it's crossing, then why aren't you apprehending them before they get to our border? Why are you allowing them to still come in? And then there's been this tit-for-tat, and the President is doing exactly what he said he was going to do. He was going to secure our borders. Its promises made and promises kept by the President.
COLLINS: Well, but the businesses seem confused. I mean, Wall Street, we're watching--
MULLIN: I didn't see that.
COLLINS: I mean, you're seeing the numbers.
MULLIN: Sure.
COLLINS: What's a business leader left to think, or an investor?
MULLIN: It's tough, right now, and I understand that. I'm a business owner. We all make decisions based on two things. We're raising -- our life experience before politics, all I ever did was business. You need certainty, which is why we need a tax policy that's permanent, not that's able to fade in and out. I'm not trying to get off on that subject, but I'm just saying that, we need certainty in the business.
[21:10:00]
Well, tariffs is a tax, and it will be passed on consumers, but it also allows us to have open markets. So, if you want to have open markets, and access to other markets, so let's go past Canada, and let's go past Mexico, and start talking about the rest of the countries we allow to come in here, that the President says, We want to have reciprocal taxes on you, if you're going to -- or tariffs on you. If you're going to charge us 36 percent, we're going to charge you 36 percent. If you want to charge us zero, we'll charge you zero.
Every one of these countries want access to the strongest and greatest economy in the world, that's United States.
COLLINS: What you--
MULLIN: We don't necessarily have to have their market. But if they're going to have access to us, we want access to their markets too.
COLLINS: What you just said is important, that a tariff is a tax--
MULLIN: Of course it is.
COLLINS: --and it is passed on to consumers.
MULLIN: Of course, it is. Everybody knows that.
COLLINS: That is something the White House does not acknowledge.
MULLIN: No, that is something that the President, who is a businessperson, understands that completely. No one understands the economy better than this president. There hasn't been a president that understands this economy better than this president.
COLLINS: And I think you'd agree that and part of why he won re- election was because of his promises on the economy.
MULLIN: Right.
COLLINS: There's a new CNN poll today out, that says Americans are not that impressed with how he's handled it so far. It's 56 percent majority of the public disapproves. That's actually lower -- or that's a higher disapproval than it ever was during his first term in office.
MULLIN: It's still higher than it ever was with Biden, though.
COLLINS: Well, but -- you're already judging him, just on Biden's numbers--
MULLIN: No, I'm just saying that if you're going to--
COLLINS: --or also on him (ph)?
MULLIN: --if you're going to use numbers, you're using his high number, in his first four years, we had inflation--
COLLINS: It's worse--
MULLIN: --at 1.4 percent.
COLLINS: It's worse than it ever was--
MULLIN: But--
COLLINS: --during his first term--
MULLIN: But he is--
COLLINS: --in terms of how they're viewing it. But my point-- MULLIN: Sure. But he's got to recover from four years of Biden. Keep in mind, we had a very --
COLLINS: But they're asked about how Trump's handling the economy--
MULLIN: --we were in a recession, already with Biden. But no one talked about it.
COLLINS: --not how Biden is handling the economy.
MULLIN: Sorry. I'm sorry. Say that again.
COLLINS: They were -- they were asked how Trump is handling the economy over Biden.
MULLIN: Sure, OK.
COLLINS: I mean, they were asked about the tariffs specifically, and they said they disapprove of that even by a wider margin, 61 to 39 percent.
MULLIN: President Trump will get this economy where it needs to go. He said that he was going to do what he's doing with the tariffs, moving on. He said he's going to keep people from taking advantage of us. These countries have been taking advantage of us.
A lot of people didn't understand tariffs, because most presidents just didn't talk about it. They have been taking advantage of us, and we've been losing billions and trillions of dollars by propping up their economy, while our economy is suffering.
When our economy suffers, then we have to have national debt, or our national debt is climbing. The way to get that solved is we have a growth in our GDP, bring back manufacturing to the United States, rather than allow these companies to go into Mexico, or go into Taiwan, or go into China, make their product from there that are American countries -- and turn back around and sell it to us? Well that's ridiculous.
COLLINS: OK. So, you're essentially, they need to have a little faith in the President and wait for his policies.
MULLIN: Yes.
COLLINS: Speaking of what's happening on the Hill today. Chuck Schumer, the leader of the Senate Democrats, came out and said they have the votes to block the House funding bill that came through from Republicans, on that, in terms of what that's going to look like. They're arguing, because Republicans didn't work for them -- work with them on this, that they're not going to pass it.
What happened?
MULLIN: Well we--
COLLINS: Is the government going to shut down in your view? MULLIN: And Chuck obviously knew he had the votes to begin with, because we only have 53. It takes 60 to get there. So we don't have six to eight--
COLLINS: Yes, you need eight Democrats--
MULLIN: Yes.
COLLINS: --to vote with you.
MULLIN: Well, we were going to need -- we were going to need eight, because Rand Paul's a no, so that we have 52. But we don't have 53 Republicans.
It's interesting to me that he said that because I was on the floor when he said that today. I'm like, Well, isn't this the same CR, the same spending levels that you voted for in September, the same spending levels that you voted for in December? So what has changed?
What's changed is you have President Trump in office rather than President Biden in office, because there's no other argument you can have here. They weren't willing to shut it down. They were OK with these numbers two other times, but this is in 2024.
Now that Trump's in office, it's their hatred towards Trump that they're willing to shut down the government for it. It's absurd. Why wouldn't they support the policies, the numbers that they voted for underneath Biden?
COLLINS: Do you think the government will shut down?
MULLIN: No, I think they cave-in by Friday.
COLLINS: OK. Do you think that -- OK, you just mentioned the debt though.
MULLIN: Right.
COLLINS: Rand Paul's not voting for it, because he says it adds $2 trillion to the debt this year.
How do you justify voting for it?
MULLIN: Rand Paul's decisions, and what he makes, is his decision. You have to ask him himself. For me--
COLLINS: But you care about the debt.
MULLIN: Yes, absolutely I do.
But for me, we have leftovers. This should have been taken care of, October 1st. Chuck Schumer never brought a spending bill to the floor. He had every one of them by July 31st. He refused to hear one appropriation bill, not one.
So now, we have leftovers that we got to deal with from the Biden administration. How long do we deal with that? We're not going to balance a budget off of -- when we're six months into this -- to this FY25, which ends September 30th.
At some point, we need to cut the umbilical cord from the Biden administration, say, OK, we can't deal with your mess anymore. We need to be looking to the policies and to the fiscal responsibility that Trump can bring. And so, that's FY26.
So the longer we deal with FY25, which is what we're doing right now, which should have already been taken care of, mind you, on October 1st, the longer we do it, that the more it distracts us from delivering what the American people wanted--
COLLINS: But--
MULLIN: --November 3rd bill.
COLLINS: Did Republicans get anything out of this?
MULLIN: Out of this? Not--
COLLINS: Because you're also voting for the same levels that--
MULLIN: Yes.
COLLINS: --Biden and Schumer negotiated.
MULLIN: Of course, I understand that completely. But I want to start focusing on Trump's policies. I want to start -- I want to quit dealing with Biden's policies. We can't. It's a distraction right now, OK?
[21:15:00]
Let's go ahead. Pass it. Let's fund it for the rest of the year. Start working on Trump's policies through Trump's appropriations, within a -- with a Republican-led House, and a Republican-led Senate, with a Republican-led White House, because that's where we can get change.
You're not going to effect change halfway through a fiscal year already that the money was spent by Biden in that administration. We can make real change in FY26.
COLLINS: We'll see what that looks like.
Senator Mullin, thank you for joining us.
MULLIN: Thank you.
COLLINS: We'll see how long you're in town this week, based on the shutdown threat.
Up next, for more on what we saw inside the White House today, the President threatened even more tariffs, as he was sitting down with the Irish Prime Minister, Micheal Martin, inside the Oval Office.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I'm here inside the East Room, where the President is about to greet the Irish Taoiseach, as they are holding a special celebration to celebrate the United States-Ireland relationship. But that comes after earlier at the White House, when the Prime Minister arrived, President Trump greeted him by criticizing the low tax rate they have in Ireland to attract U.S. businesses and other interests.
TRUMP: The Irish is smart, you're a smart people. And you took our pharmaceutical companies and other companies, but, you know, through taxation, and proper taxation. They made it very -- very good for companies to move over there.
COLLINS: Of course, the Irish Prime Minister responded by saying that they have a great relationship with the United States.
But as part of that conversation, Trump was saying he is not going to hesitate to retaliate against the EU retaliation that has gone into place today, as we've seen after those steel and aluminum tariffs across the board have gone into place.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My White House insiders are here tonight.
Isaac Arnsdorf is a Senior White House Reporter for The Washington Post, and also the co-author of the upcoming book, "2024."
Also with us, Sabrina Rodriguez, The Washington Post National Political Reporter.
It's great to have you both here.
Just digging into that Oval Office meeting. It seems, every meeting that Trump has with a world leader, this is one of the number one issues that gets brought up, and he has -- he's downed in on exactly what he thinks that country has done wrong to the United States.
What did you -- what were your takeaways from his sit-down in the Oval?
ISAAC ARNSDORF, SENIOR WHITE HOUSE REPORTER, THE WASHINGTON POST: Well, we, at The Washington Post, are reporting tonight that European allies were helping to prepare and coach the Irish Prime Minister, going into this meeting, how, based on their experience, and what the European allies are all trying to communicate to Trump, on tariffs, and on Ukraine, how do you break through to him? How do you use this St. Patrick's Day commemoration to try to strengthen that alliance at a time when it's showing these signs of strain.
And Trump really didn't give him an opportunity for that. I mean, this wasn't really a bilateral meeting, where they could have a private word. It was all in front of the cameras. It wasn't exactly the Zelenskyy meeting. But the first question Trump immediately launches into, attacking Ireland and attacking the EU. COLLINS: Yes, that's amazing that they are coaching him, essentially. Is it the other world leaders who have been inside the Oval Office with Trump before?
ARNSDORF: Yes, he talked to Keir Starmer about it based on his experience. And it was also it was among the European allies at the -- at the foreign minister level, how -- what needs to be communicated, and what's the best way when you're dealing with Trump.
COLLINS: Well, and how this speaks not just with the other world leaders that he's dealing with.
It was really notable to hear the Senator say, Yes, tariffs are a tax, and yes, this price is going to be passed on to consumers. Because the White House often pushes back on that, the President himself, top economic advisers on this.
And obviously the 101 of Politics is, It's the economy, stupid. And so when you see these numbers of voters saying, I don't like the way he's handling this, or I don't like the way that the tariffs are being put in place, how much do you think White House officials are listening to that?
SABRINA RODRIGUEZ, NATIONAL POLITICS REPORTER, THE WASHINGTON POST: Well, I think, I mean 100 percent, Kaitlan, when he was saying that, my ears perked up immediately to hear him, and then to sort of dismiss it as, Everyone knows this.
No, not everyone knows this.
COLLINS: Maybe not -- everyone acknowledges it.
RODRIGUEZ: And not everyone acknowledges it.
But I think there's been a notable shift within White House officials and Republicans writ large that are sort of trying to toe this line of saying, Well, you know, it might be a little painful. I mean, we saw Trump himself say it in his address to Congress, last week, saying, a little turbulence. We saw him say in his Fox Business interview this week -- this weekend, that it would be a period of transition.
I mean, they're clearly trying to strike this balance, because there is an awareness that this is going to hurt the American public, that American companies are concerned about this. I mean, we heard JPMorgan CEO -- JPMorgan Chase CEO, Jamie Dimon, today say, Uncertainty is not a good thing. And that's a huge shift from two months ago, when he was saying, Get over it, when talking about tariffs.
COLLINS: Yes, he was arguing that if it's good for national security, it's worth it. Now, obviously we've seen just what has happened in those two months.
Great to have you both and your insights and reporting, Isaac and Sabrina.
Also, see what happens when two very different worlds collide. You've got to just watch this. Yes, this is not photo-edited. It is actually Gavin Newsom and Steve Bannon sitting down, talking on the governor's podcast at the largest liberal state, of course. More on that ahead.
Also, reaction from a big name seeking to replace Newsom as governor. Katie Porter is here live.
[21:20:00]
And then the very latest tonight on the Columbia graduate student, and pro-Palestinian activist, who was detained by the Trump administration. We're going to speak to his attorney, ahead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My husband was kidnapped from our home. I demand his immediate release.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: A federal judge has ordered the U.S. authorities to give the pro-Palestinian activist, Mahmoud Khalil, access to his legal team, after attorneys fighting for his release say that they were unable to speak with him at an ICE detention center in Louisiana.
Mr. Khalil, of course, in recent days, was arrested by federal immigration authorities, acting on State Department orders, in New York, last Saturday, and he was transferred more than 1,300 miles away, ultimately.
[21:25:00]
This is all part of the Trump administration's efforts to say that they want to deport the man who helped lead last year's student protest movement at Columbia University, demanding a ceasefire in Gaza.
You saw protesters in the streets and the court -- outside the courthouse, in Lower Manhattan today, calling for his return to his wife, who is eight months pregnant. She shared this statement, which was read by her husband's legal team on the courthouse steps.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My husband was kidnapped from our home, and it's shameful that the United States government continues to hold him, because he stood for the rights and lives of his people. I demand his immediate release and return to our family.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My source tonight was inside the courtroom. Mahmoud Khalil's attorney, Diala Shamas.
And it's great to have you here tonight. Because I know the judge ruled that officials have to let the legal team speak with your client, at least once today, once tomorrow. Have you gotten the chance to do so yet?
DIALA SHAMAS, ATTORNEY FOR MAHMOUD KHALIL, SENIOR STAFF ATTORNEY AT THE CENTER FOR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS: Thank you for having me.
The legal team just had their first call. I am here with you, so I was not able to be on that call. But yes, the judge did order those two calls, finally, to have a legally confidential, privileged call with the client.
COLLINS: And without going into what he said, did they have any description of how he's doing, or feeling, in light of all of this?
SHAMAS: I have -- I have not been able to actually hear from them, yet. I do know that, obviously, from the spouse, understandably distressed, and is very engaged in wanting to fight this unlawful detention, and is reading up and wanting to be very active, and finally, able to have those conversations with him, thankfully.
COLLINS: Yes, notable that those conversations are able to happen.
Overall here, what the administration is arguing is that that he has been detained based on this rarely-used provision of the Immigration and Nationality Act. It gives the Secretary of State, in this case, Marco Rubio, broad powers to deport anyone who is not a U.S. citizen or a U.S. national.
Why And what is your argument that that does not apply to Mr. Khalil?
SHAMAS: Well, to be clear, the rarely-invoked and really draconian provision of immigration law gives the Secretary of State, the ability to determine that someone -- that someone is deportable if they're potentially -- if they find that they have potentially serious adverse foreign policy consequences.
And so, this is a really scary and rarely-invoked provision in immigration law. And the government here is invoking it simply to deport somebody whose opinions on foreign policy they don't like. This is in retaliation to his protected speech, his protected advocacy. He's a Palestinian student on a campus. Can't imagine any other appropriate response, but to protest, all of last year. And now he's being punished for that.
COLLINS: Yes, they haven't--
SHAMAS: So there're serious--
COLLINS: Go ahead.
SHAMAS: Well, there are serious legal problems. First of all, the First Amendment protections that apply to full (ph) United States, regardless of their status. Again, Mr. Khalil is a lawful permanent resident. He's married to a United States citizen. He's expecting his first child in a month, like eight months pregnant. And these are, in this, in many ways, sort of opening shot by this administration, to deliver on what they've promised to be a complete repression of dissent on campuses, and any criticism of the U.S. government's foreign policy, and any criticism of Israel's war on Gaza.
COLLINS: Yes. And as part of this, he hasn't been charged with any crime. I mean, we've asked the DHS Secretary, we've asked White House officials.
They have shown these pamphlets that the White House, Karoline Leavitt, was describing as pro-Hamas propaganda. I'm showing some of the ones that the White House said that they had here. They argued that Khalil and his campus organizations distributed them.
Do you know if your client had a -- had a hand in handing out these leaflets or flyers while at Columbia?
SHAMAS: I mean, first of all, they've presented no information connecting him with those flyers. But second of all, are we really talking about flyers and pamphleting on a campus? I mean, is that the extent of information that we want to be deporting people on?
But to be clear, those are -- those -- I've seen those images, and those are not images -- those are not pamphlets that they've attributed to -- that anyone has shown him actually distributing or having any role to play in.
[21:30:00]
But I really do want to underscore what the government is doing here, which is they're essentially saying that distributing leaflets on a campus, which is when every campus student does, at some point in their college career, makes you deportable, if the content of those pamphlets is something that the government disapproves of.
COLLINS: Yes, they had images of Yahya Sinwar on them, in some of them.
But you're saying that you haven't -- you personally haven't even seen any evidence, or connection between your client and these pamphlets, and that you believe--
SHAMAS: All we--
COLLINS: --that would be covered by the First Amendment?
SHAMAS: Everything that we've learned is what they've put out in the press. The government has not presented his legal team with any information beyond what is in the notice to appear, which simply is a determination that he's -- activities have potentially serious adverse foreign policy consequences, which is just a regurgitation of the language of the -- of the INA, which is the part of the statute and that they're citing.
So no, they're -- they're trying to smear him in the court of public opinion, painting him as a bad person. But they're not even raising any -- they're not even alleging that he's any kind of risk to national security, that he's engaged in any kind. They're not even doing that. They're simply saying that they don't like his opinions.
COLLINS: Diala Shamas, we're obviously going to be following this very closely. Thank you for your time tonight, and I hope you'll come back in the future as we continue to follow this case.
SHAMAS: Thank you for having me, and thank you for following this case. It's a really important one, and one that hopefully does not portend more to come, as this administration has announced.
COLLINS: Yes. Good to have you. Thank you very much.
Also, tonight, on the foreign policy front, Ukraine is waiting to hear, so is the United States, from Russia. Yet, Russia has not yet agreed to that U.S.-proposed ceasefire. But was Vladimir Putin sending a message by doing something he doesn't normally do today?
[21:35:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, the Russian president, Vladimir Putin, has still not engaged on the U.S. proposal for a 30-day ceasefire with Ukraine. But his actions and maybe his outfit could give us some insight into his thinking, at least.
Earlier, we saw the Russian leader dressed in military fatigues, visiting a command post near the front lines of a Russian region that his troops are trying to recapture from Ukrainian forces, something you certainly don't see every day.
My source tonight is Rahm Emanuel, CNN's Senior Political and Global Affairs Commentator, and also the former Ambassador to Japan under President Biden.
And it's great to have you here.
Because when you see him wearing that military uniform, near the front lines of an area that Ukraine is trying to hold on to, to me, my first thought was, this does not necessarily look like someone who was on the verge of accepting a 30-day ceasefire deal.
What did it say to you?
RAHM EMANUEL, AMBASSADOR TO JAPAN UNDER PRESIDENT BIDEN, FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF TO OBAMA, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL & GLOBAL AFFAIRS COMMENTATOR: No, I mean, that's exactly right.
This is, first of all, he's setting the tone. And I also think you're going to -- what he's going to probably look at, because Zelenskyy, President Zelenskyy of Ukraine, turned the tables on him. He's going to say yes, but. And the part that comes after the but, is going to be the most important. He is not going to agree to this, because the fundamental differences here is Ukraine likes to have and maintain their sovereignty. The last thing that President Putin will agree to is a sovereign, independent Ukraine. Second, Ukraine wants defenses. He wants a defenseless Ukraine. Third, they want to have their own kind of government, and he wants one that he can manipulate. That's been the history of President Putin's position since 2007 and 2014.
So, I actually think the onus is going to quickly turn around on the United States. And I think this administration is going to need a plan B.
So the outfit tells you everything. He is planning on continuing the war. We have to figure out a very clear path for Ukraine to sustain itself, to bring President Putin to the table, because there is nowhere, when you look at the positions he has had, and he's raised the bar from his original positions a year ago, that he is going to be Yes, I agree. It's going to be a Yes, but, so he can drag out the war and change what's happening on the ground.
And the United States, where it's going to be, the tables are going to turn on us, and we -- and the administration is going to need a plan B to respond to that.
COLLINS: There's been--
EMANUEL: And I think it should be very clear about what its position is going to be vis-a-vis Ukraine, their security, their long-term economic and political interests.
COLLINS: Yes. Well, on that front, though, there has been a lot of criticism of Trump for how he's talked about Ukraine versus how he's talked about Russia, as they've gotten closer to where we're at right now.
Do you think that the administration and the President deserves credit in terms of, having Ukraine agree to this ceasefire, and really putting the onus on Russia here, in terms of what it's going to do and, as our expert, last night, was saying, kind of has backed Russia into a corner here.
EMANUEL: Well, I don't agree with that, because I think it was a mistake to kind of put the President of Ukraine, President Zelenskyy, in a kind of a strategic full nelson.
Early on, the President agreed to all the -- and assented to all the kind of benchmarks that President Putin had. He could have said, Look, there will be no NATO membership, but there will be EU membership. There will be no land grabs here. There will be actually a sovereign, independent Ukraine, and that's going to be fundamental.
He never outlined what were the things we agreed for Ukraine. We outlined what were the things that we agreed with on President Putin. And so, I don't think they've actually done a swift job.
Now, if he all of a sudden turns around tomorrow, and says, Yes, no ifs ands or buts, 30-day ceasefire, we'll begin negotiations for a long-term peace? That is a victory, and I'll be the first to say it.
[21:40:00]
I don't think, given the outfit and a series of things that you -- when you lose 600,000 lives in a -- rather, 600,000 lives of Russians have been both lost and wounded. He is in a political problem at home. He is more vulnerable. His economy is crushing. His military has been shown to be very, very weak. He's lost thousands and thousands, hundreds of thousands of both men--
COLLINS: Yes.
EMANUEL: --and also who are permanently wounded. So he is vulnerable, and the idea that he can turn around and say, after all this, OK, ceasefire? Not a chance. Nobody, autocrat, democratic-elected government, can survive that politically.
COLLINS: Yes, it's obviously no easy issue. We'll see, obviously, what Putin says.
I do want to ask you, though, about another thing that was of interest today online. Jonathan Martin, of Politico, published a new column that had the headline, Rahm Emanuel Is Gearing Up To Run For President, essentially laying out this argument that you were laying the groundwork for a run in 2028.
Is that true?
EMANUEL: No. I think, look, the last thing you got to worry about is my job and my economic security. I'm going to be fine.
The thing that you got to worry about is the nurse that was laid off at the Veterans Administration who doesn't have a job, the person who was going to be hired at a small business and got told, We got to put you on hold. The scientist that was working at the National Institutes of Health.
I'm going to be fine. Don't worry about me. If I have something to say, I've never been shy, I'll say it. The thing you have to worry about are people's--
COLLINS: Well I don't think anyone thinks it's job security for you.
EMANUEL: --economic security--
COLLINS: I think they're just wondering what your ambitions are, and whether or not it's crossed your mind.
EMANUEL: Yes, well, no, look, what's crossed my mind is I actually think we have a challenge in this country, and I think we're actually -- today, I think that America is less safe, I think our economy is less stable, and I think your future is less secure. And if you have answers to those? That's one thing. I'm back two months, got something to say? I'll say it.
COLLINS: OK. Well, feel free to say it here at 9 o'clock. Rahm Emanuel, great to have you here. Thanks for working in.
EMANUEL: I got to stay up that late.
COLLINS: Thanks for having you. Good to see you.
EMANUEL: Thanks.
COLLINS: Speaking of running for office, my next source tonight just said that she is running for Governor of California. As the current Governor of California just sat down with his polar opposite on a podcast. I don't know, the hair, we're drawing some comparisons today. Gavin Newsom, Steve Bannon, together, we'll show you more of that, ahead.
[21:45:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: California's Democratic governor has welcomed another MAGA- world-voice, perhaps the MAGA-world-voice onto his podcast.
Steve Bannon, this week's guest on "This is Gavin Newsom." As the Governor said, he launched this podcast to specifically have these kinds of conversations, with these kinds of people, on the opposite side of the political spectrum from him.
During their conversation today, Donald Trump's former chief strategist anointed Newsom, he says, as a leader of the Democratic Party.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEVE BANNON, EXECUTIVE AND FORMER WHITE HOUSE CHIEF STRATEGIST: If we're ever to get a control of the oligarchs, you--
GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM (D-CA): Yes.
BANNON: --as governor and as, quite frankly, the leader of that wing of the party, have got to work with us to say, Hey, this can't go on any longer.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My Democratic source is a former member of Congress who, just yesterday, announced she is running for the job Newsom has now, because he can't run again. Katie Porter is here now.
And it's great to have you.
I do want to just first off ask, do you agree with what Steve Bannon there said, about Governor Newsom being the leader of that part of the Democratic Party?
KATIE PORTER, (D) CALIFORNIA GOVERNOR CANDIDATE, FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE (D-CA): Well, I was in the classroom all day, teaching, and with students, so I haven't listened to the whole conversation. I just heard the clip that you played.
Over and over again, I think Governor Newsom has been a spirited defender of our American values and our California values. I'm sure he did that in that conversation with Steve Bannon.
I do think from the left, and the right, and the middle, we are hearing a lot of concerns about making sure that we have an economy that works for those who are workers. And so, I think that is an issue that we should be talking about, and we should be delivering policy solutions on.
I personally was in the Capitol Complex on January 6th. I detest Steve Bannon as somebody who saw that carnage and that -- the loss of life that we had that day. But I think, generally, the point stands that Democrats need to be having difficult conversations.
COLLINS: So you think this is a good idea to be sitting down? Maybe you personally wouldn't sit down with Steve Bannon for a conversation. But do you think this is overall a helpful strategy, in terms of, his argument has been that these guys are better than your guys, that the Charlie Kirks of the world and the Steve Bannons are essentially better at using social media as a mass comms tool to reach Americans?
PORTER: As someone who represents -- or represented Orange County, for several years, I flipped a Republican district, I live in this purple area, we cannot wall ourselves off from people that we disagree with.
I think the real task, the real challenge, for all of us, and something that I worked hard to do, is to engage with voters, right, to talk to them, to listen to their concerns. And I think that is the single most important task for Democratic leaders. Going forward, if we're going to expand our party, if we're going to win back voters that we have lost, then we're going to do it by listening to them.
And then, number one -- you know, there's two things you hear over and over and over again, across the State of California. I'm sure Governor Newsom has heard them too. Which are that people are very concerned about Trump's attacks on basic things that people count on, like health care and Social Security, and the second is that the cost of living is too high.
So, I think those are the two things that we have to be focusing on, and listening to everyday voters is an important strategy for that.
COLLINS: Well, and obviously, I'm sure you anticipate you'll be doing a lot of that, now that you announced you're running for the Governor of California, after you had an unsuccessful Senate run that we covered, obviously, spoke to you then.
On this race, what do you want to do differently in order to try to win?
PORTER: Well, I think it's really important to understand the moment that we're in. This is a moment in which California is going to have to block and tackle.
[21:50:00]
Trump is going to be coming for things that we value, that we have fought hard -- hard for, things like clean air and clean water, things like health care for everybody who needs it, abortion rights, LGBTQ rights. There's a lot that we need to be standing up to Trump to. And in Congress, I showed I was willing to go toe-to-toe with Donald Trump and his cronies.
I am somebody who, both in Congress, and in my career as a consumer protection attorney, has shown that I am willing to listen to good ideas. I don't care if they're coming from, who they're coming from, the right, the left the middle. That is what we need to be trying to find.
I cannot be bought by special interests or by any entity or organization. And I think that is the kind of no-nonsense kind of tough approach that this moment calls for, both with Donald Trump, and with some of the challenges California is facing.
COLLINS: Yes. And we're waiting to see what that field looks like. We don't know if Vice President Harris is going to join. If she does, are you going to stay in the race?
PORTER: Well, I think we're going to see the field probably both grow and shrink. It's very early. The primary is in June of 2026. But this is a big state and a big job.
One of the things I hear over and over again is people are hungry for leadership. They want to be planning for, what comes next for California? How are we going to deal with Donald Trump? How are we going to deal with some of our challenges?
I have great respect for Vice President Harris. She's going to make her own decision in her own time. I obviously respect that. I saw firsthand when I worked as the -- helping with the foreclosure crisis, at her request, the job, the terrific job she did, as our Attorney General. And so, I think everyone has to acknowledge that she would be an incredibly formidable opponent. We have to be realistic about that.
But I think it's also important to be very clear with people. This is a moment that calls for leadership, and I am not waiting.
COLLINS: Yes, the two of you obviously have a close relationship. I did think it was notable that you got in the race before we heard from her. But will her getting in the race make a difference to you running as a candidate?
PORTER: I will definitely take it into consideration. Look, if she enters the race tomorrow, that is -- that is a real -- that's a real thing. That's a very real factor. She doesn't -- not given a firm indication. She said, it may be months from now.
So, in the meantime, I'm going to be listening to Californians. I'm going to be talking to businesses, talking to non-profits, talking to my colleagues in Congress, making the best plans I can, to be the strongest possible governor that I can be. The reality is that she's going to make her decision, in her time. I have made my decision, and I'm running for California governor. If she makes her decision, that will have a big near field-clearing effect. I'm sure everybody will have to reevaluate, if and when that happens.
COLLINS: All right. Katie Porter, thank you so much for joining us. Great to have you.
PORTER: Thank you.
COLLINS: And we're following breaking news, this hour. Why the Trump administration just called today the most consequential day of deregulation in U.S. history. More on what's happening, next.
[21:55:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: We have some breaking news this hour, as we are following a move by the Trump administration to announce a rapid-fire gutting of key climate policies, slashing regulations that control vehicle and power plant pollution, also at the same time, preparing to strip the EPA's authority to manage the pollution that causes global warming.
My source tonight is CNN's Chief Climate Correspondent, Bill Weir.
And Bill, as we're looking at these rollbacks that have been put in place by the White House, in just the last two hours alone or so, so far. What can you tell us about just the scope, what does this mean, and how is it going to affect people?
BILL WEIR, CNN CHIEF CLIMATE CORRESPONDENT: It is the chainsaw effect that we've been watching all these weeks. Famously, President Trump promised oil executives, carte blanche, when it came to deregulation.
And today's event, which is actually timed to the biggest Energy Conference in Houston, today, Lee Zeldin put out a video on X, and they were putting out press releases with such a flurry, about 31 different actions and rollbacks that some of them had typos or placeholders at the top.
We have one of those there. Trump EPA announces 000 -- you can see there.
COLLINS: Oops.
WEIR: It's sort of shoot first, fill out the press release later.
They're going after, of course, as you mentioned, vehicle emissions, tailpipe emissions, power plant pollution, mercury pollution that comes out of there, coal, wastewater oil and gas, coal ash. Reporting CO2, industries just kind of keeping a tally on how much planet- cooking pollution they're putting in to the sea and sky, where they no need to do that anymore.
Now, a lot of this is symbolic. It still has to go through the courts. It has to go through Congress. But it just is the latest in an all-out war on science, around public health, around the environment, and, of course, around the climate crisis.
COLLINS: Well, Bill, I mean, you travel out in the country. You go when there are these natural disasters, and we see what happens. I mean, you talk to people every day, who kind of confront a lot of these things that are put in place for that -- for that reason. What's it going to look like for people's everyday life?
WEIR: Well, it's going to affect everything on earth, eventually. But in the near-term, it'll be the folks who have struggled with the biggest costs of our economies, folks who live next to factories and toxic waste sites.
There's one example, this week. About 30 miles outside of New Orleans, there's a big petrochemical plant, right next to a community, right next to an elementary school.
There was a Department of Justice lawsuit supposed to go to -- before a judge, next month, dropped by the Trump administration. They said, because it was a blow against the radical Diversity, Equity, Inclusion policies of the last administration.
It was potentially deadly chemicals coming out of a factory. Does it matter the race of the elementary school nearby?
But this is what -- all of these programs are just being systematically destroyed. And then you've got the forecasting scientists, the climate-modeling folks. They've gutted resiliency funding for communities to try to build back from fires out in California, or hurricanes in Florida
[22:00:00]
Every level of this, every mention of climate change or science is being stripped out of federal websites, right now. And so, this will affect everything. But in the near-term, it's economies. It's people's health, wealth, happiness, are tied to this story--
COLLINS: Yes.
WEIR: --in so many ways.
COLLINS: Yes. Obviously, we'll be following it all closely with you, Bill Weir. Thank you for breaking that down.
Thank you all so much for joining us.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" is up next.
