Return to Transcripts main page

The Source with Kaitlan Collins

Judge Orders Trump Administration To Preserve Signal Messages; Musk: Social Security Recipients Will Get "More Money" Because Of DOGE; Trump Pulls Stefanik's U.N. Nomination To Protect GOP House Majority. Aired 9-10p ET

Aired March 27, 2025 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[21:00:00]

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: What's next for those federal employees?

RANDI KAYE, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson, they're really in limbo, as they wait for their case and their reinstatement to be appealed. Since it is on appeal right now, they're not even sure if they're going to have a job to go back to.

But in the meantime, the union rep we spoke with said that he believes these firings are actually illegal. He said that the Trump administration was required to give them 60 days' notice, which he says they didn't. He also said that the firings were performance- based, and he said these people performed well. Their conduct was excellent.

COOPER: Yes.

KAYE: And there was no reason to fire them, Anderson.

COOPER: Randi, thanks very much.

The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Straight from THE SOURCE tonight.

A federal judge tells President Trump's top aides to preserve their records, ordering them not to delete those texts containing sensitive attack plans. What this means for Trump's inner circle, and the scandal that's not going away.

Plus, the President pulls the nomination of Congresswoman Elise Stefanik, a stunning turn for one of his biggest supporters who had already done a goodbye to her in her district. Why the President says it was a move he had to make.

And meet the DOGE team. We're finally hearing from Elon Musk's government chainsaws. What they say about what they're seeing behind the walls of the federal government.

I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE. Tonight, as the White House was hoping the Signal scandal would start to fade out of the headlines, a federal judge, here in Washington, has virtually ensured that it won't.

And not just any federal judge. Judge James Boasberg has ordered all agencies, involved in the group chat about military strikes in Yemen, to preserve the messages between March 11th and March 15th, the judge asking for an update on how that's going, by Monday.

And if that name sounds familiar, it certainly is to President Trump. That is the same Judge Boasberg, who is also in the middle of trying to determine if the administration ignored his verbal order to turn around deportation flights, in a separate case, making him one of the President's biggest targets lately.

Now tonight, as he presided over this saga, the Signal saga, Judge Boasberg quipped from the bench, Don't worry, my order will be in writing.

Jokes aside, this judge's assignment at this case was chosen at random. But it's not sitting well with top Trump allies, like the Attorney General, Pam Bondi.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAM BONDI, UNITED STATES ATTORNEY GENERAL: He shouldn't be on any of these cases. He cannot be objective. He's made that crystal clear.

These judges across the country, and again, they think they have authority, but it's going to be short-lived, because these cases are going to get to the Supreme Court very fast.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Bondi also asked there if it was just a coincidence that Boasberg was chosen for this. That echoes what we heard from President Trump, overnight, wrongly claiming it was statistically impossible for this judge to be assigned to this case.

But Boasberg, seemingly in reference to the President's Truth Social post, explained in court today that this was the normal process of random selection, out of a total of 24 judges in the district.

Now, as for the Attorney General, in this new interview tonight, she made clear that not only is she not investigating the use of this Signal group chat, to talk about sensitive and, many have argued, classified information, she has no problem using the app.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LAURA INGRAHAM, FOX NEWS HOST: You are completely confident that this was -- this was a mistake, and nothing more than that?

BONDI: We are. And all the -- all of our intelligence officials who were on it are confident of that as well.

I think Signal is a very safe way to communicate. I don't think foreign adversaries are able to hack Signal, as far as I know.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Now, for people who don't use Signal, it's like any messaging app that has high-value targets. State-backed hackers have tried to find a way onto Signal chats, leaving open the possibility that it could certainly be vulnerable to prying eyes.

Just last month, we saw that report from a Google-owned security firm that found Russian-linked spies were trying to break into the Signal accounts, the same Signal, the same platform, those accounts of Ukrainian military personnel by posing as their trusted Signal contacts.

But here in Washington, we talk about the court. But this push for accountability on this issue goes far beyond the courts, all the way to Capitol Hill tonight. The top Democrat and Republican, on the Senate Armed Services Committee, have now officially requested a watchdog investigation into the potential use of, quote, "The use of unclassified networks to discuss sensitive and classified information."

My lead sources tonight are:

The former federal prosecutor, Elliot Williams.

And retired New York State Supreme Court Justice, Jill Konviser.

And Judge Jill, it's great to have you here tonight.

Because you heard Attorney General Pam Bondi arguing there, that they don't think Judge Boasberg can be objective here.

[21:05:00]

Now, I should note, he was very clear. He was not saying that there's been any wrongdoing here. He was just saying, Preserve these messages from March 11th to March 15th.

Did you find that to be a standard order? What did you read into that tonight?

JILL KONVISER, RETIRED NY STATE SUPREME COURT JUSTICE: I found that to be a standard order. There is no information, or very little information, before the court. He's taking the very smart and reasonable and responsible step, to say, Preserve the evidence. We don't know where this is going.

It's not unusual at all. When we need phone records, we'll tell a cell phone company to preserve records. Social media, I've told them to preserve records, in criminal investigations, because we don't know where it's going. It's a common practice.

COLLINS: What happens if they don't abide by it, or those messages have already disappeared? What happens there? KONVISER: Well, if the messages have disappeared, of course there are experts who might be able to look into it, and I imagine the judge could order someone to do that.

But you have to remember that there is something called the Federal Reporting Act, as well as Administrative Procedure Acts, which require members of the federal government to keep track of these conversations.

That's why Signal is a platform that Ms. Bondi should know falls most likely and runs most likely afoul of those federal statutes, because they do have to preserve. That's why we have presidential libraries at the end of the day. But it's also an important form of a check and balance that this country is so desperately in need of.

COLLINS: Yes, well, and Elliot given that, and given all -- given, for people who don't use Signal, you can essentially set, if there's a conversation that the two of us are having? In one hour, the messages delete. In eight hours, the messages delete. It can be that they don't delete. It depends on how you set them. And these were set, I believe, at one week, and then at four weeks.

Did that force the judge's hand here? Is that why he made this call tonight?

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Yes, it certainly forced the speed with which the judge ruled. Judges can take as long as they want to rule. But the simple fact is, if he had taken several days to rule, some of this information would have been lost.

But to back up the judge's point, that -- the law requires the retention of records. This isn't just about checking The Atlantic, or making sure that we see these things in the public record. This is for compliance with loss. It was very important that the judge issued this order, to at least give more time to assess whether these can be properly preserved.

COLLINS: What did you make of what we heard from the Attorney General on not investigating, not looking into this. I mean, is that -- that doesn't mean someone would be charged, necessarily. But that's the decision up to prosecutors, as you know. Is it normal or typical, though, or traditional, I guess I should say, that they would not investigate this?

WILLIAMS: You would often, at least open an investigation. And I think you really touched it, hit the nail on the head. It's not always about bringing charges. It's about getting to the bottom of what happened.

But I think, more than anything else, it's a reminder that elections have consequences, not just for tax policy, and abortion, and all of these sort of social matters that people care about. It's also when investigations are opened. The choice of an attorney general, or the choice of a Justice Department who's going to lead it, also has an impact on the kinds of investigations that get brought by a government. COLLINS: Now Judge, I mentioned how Judge Boasberg was explaining, inside the courtroom today, how he was chosen here. Can you walk us through that process?

Because the President is basically saying it's impossible that Boasberg was chosen here. He wrote, the fact that he was given a fourth case seems statistically impossible, that he is grabbing all the Trump cases to himself, even though it is not supposed to happen that way. He said, Is there still such a thing as the wheel where the judges are chosen fairly and at random?

KONVISER: So there is a wheel. There's always been a wheel in every courthouse. And I'm going to suspect, go out on a limb here, and tell you, the last person who wanted this case was probably Judge Boasberg.

But there's no way to determine, really, whether there was a statistical anomaly here or not, unless you know how many cases have come in, in the past month. And someone has to sit down and do the math. It can't -- you can't just conclude it's statistically impossible, because you don't like it or you think that it seems strange.

But I think, as I said, he probably didn't want it, and it was a sign that way. I mean, everyone knew that this would be a conversation, that we'd be having this conversation. So, if it looked like someone was feeding it to him, they may have thought twice. I imagine it really, truly was random.

COLLINS: Yes, I got a lot of the side-eye emojis from some officials when I asked them about this happening.

Judge Jill Konviser. Elliot Williams. Great to have both of your expertise here on this.

My next expert and source is Senior Political Correspondent for The New York Times, Maggie Haberman.

And Maggie, I wonder what you're hearing from just the White House, the administration in general, and their reaction to this order, from the judge tonight, which is keeping this story very much on the front page, which is not obviously where the White House wanted it to be.

MAGGIE HABERMAN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST, SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, NY TIMES: Right. They're not happy, Kaitlan, as you know. They are certainly not happy about Judge Boasberg, as you know.

[21:10:00]

I will note that the administration officials, who keep saying that the judges all have conflicts are Trump's own former personal attorneys, who are now running the Justice Department, and they presumably have views about all of this as well.

But there -- nobody wants this, in the Trump administration, to continue. They have tried talking about a number of other issues, tariffs, executive orders about law firms, executive orders about history and cultural institutions.

This is not going away. You are correct. This is going to keep it going. Their own reactions are going to keep it going. And there is a slow drip, drip of questions, primarily about Mike Waltz, the National Security Advisor, who started the Signal chain, but not only about him, in terms of what was said in it.

COLLINS: So what does that playbook look like? Because this week, obviously, it's been a very familiar one, of not admitting a mistake--

HABERMAN: Yes.

COLLINS: --or really going as far as. We've seen Secretary Rubio do so, but that's really the only person who has come out--

HABERMAN: Right.

COLLINS: --as much as he did. Instead, they've gone on the attack, against Jeffrey Goldberg, against just all sorts of things in this matter.

But is that still the playbook, do you think, if this stays in the headlines?

HABERMAN: I think that if this stays in the headlines, they are going to have a choice to make.

Trump is very clear that, according to a number of people I've spoken to, he does not want to fire someone, because he sees that as giving in to the media. People around him see that as weak. And I think you will hear that for a while.

Whether this is sustainable for them, is another story. And some of what is going to determine that is how many more headlines continue that relate to this. As you say, it is not going away.

And it is, Kaitlan, it's important to note, there's such a flood-the- zone from this administration, and has been since day one, frankly, since he won the election, very few things really break through to the general public. This one really has, and it is showing no sign of abating, and they are not helping make it go away with the amplified attacks, so frequently.

COLLINS: Yes, we've even seen people who are typically huge allies of Trump's, or people that he often quotes.

Andy McCarthy is one who has been pretty critical of this. I was looking at some of the headlines he wrote today on National Review, just saying, A Disclosure Violation Is Still a Violation, Even If It Wasn't a Worse Violation. He said, The Signal App Not Authorized for Classified Communications.

I mean, these are not people who are typically critics of his, on this matter. How much does that matter to the President?

HABERMAN: I think it depends on how loud it gets, and how much it starts sinking through to his base of supporters. You are seeing some Republicans express some concern about this. It's not as vocal as certainly you would have heard, had it been Joe Biden or somebody else. But there are some people who are concerned, because it is hard for them to explain this away.

I will say also, this is an issue that involves a number of officials. And we are seeing, Kaitlan, the limits of -- Donald Trump is able to use the Donald Trump playbook, and have the laws of gravity not apply -- political gravity, not apply to him. That is not true for everybody around him.

And a lot of them still continue to act as if that playbook works for them, because that's what he wants them to do. It doesn't really work for them the same way. And so, we are seeing the limits of that here.

COLLINS: You just mentioned that part of this is he does not want to fire anyone, because it feels like he's giving in--

HABERMAN: Right.

COLLINS: --or providing a concession. But I think it's important to point out that that doesn't necessarily mean behind-the-scenes, he's not angry about what's happening here--

HABERMAN: Right.

COLLINS: --or has that irritation with some of his top aides, people like the National Security Advisor, who added this reporter, Jeffrey Goldberg, to the chat, and kind of is the reason we're here.

HABERMAN: That is true. There are a lot of people in the administration who like Mike Waltz, there are a lot of people in the House who served with Mike Waltz, or in the Senate who know Mike Waltz, who do not want to see him go, both because they like him and because they are concerned, Kaitlan, about who would fill that slot after him. And so, I think that that is part of what you are seeing here, in terms of people who are in the President's ear.

The President is not happy about this. And again, to your point, it's not so much that he's upset about the disclosure of information. The mission was not compromised, and that's something that he's talked to a number of people about. He's really upset about Jeffrey Goldberg being added to this chat. And that is, from a number of people I've spoken to, going to be hard for him to stop thinking about when it comes to Mike Waltz. So, we will see how this plays out.

COLLINS: Indeed, we will.

Maggie Haberman, thank you for that excellent reporting tonight.

HABERMAN: Thanks, Kaitlan.

COLLINS: Up next. You remember when we heard from the President's Commerce Secretary that fraudsters were the ones who would complain if they -- loudly, if they missed a Social Security check. He is not the only person, it turns out, on the President's team who feels that way. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ELON MUSK, SENIOR ADVISOR TO THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You know who complains the loudest and the -- with the most amount of fake righteous indignation? The fraudsters. That's -- it's a tell.

BRET BAIER, FOX NEWS HOST: I think that most people, commonsense wise, would say, The fraud's got to end.

MUSK: Yes.

[21:15:00]

BAIER: They're concerned about the 94-year-old mother who skips a check or somehow doesn't get what she's supposed to get.

MUSK: Right. And what we're trying to say is actually that, that the 94-year-old grandmother is actually, as a result of DOGE's work, going to get her check.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: Tonight, we saw Elon Musk's first interview, alongside the team responsible for overhauling the federal government.

It wasn't the young staffers that we've reported on, who are also certainly working on this team. But instead, it was seven of the top DOGE officials joining him, as Elon Musk himself argued that you'd have to go back nearly 250 years, to try to find a comparison to what they are doing right now.

[21:20:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MUSK: Well, this is a revolution. And I think it might be the -- might be the biggest revolution in government since the original revolution.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: When he was asked about concerns that the cuts that they're making could impact programs, and people who receive Social Security, Elon Musk offered this guarantee.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MUSK: No, in fact what we're doing will help their benefits. Legitimate people, as a result of the work of DOGE, will receive more Social Security, not less. Want to emphasize that. As a result of the work of DOGE, legitimate recipients of Social Security will receive more money, not less money.

BAIER: All right. DOGE employees (ph)-- MUSK: I want to emphasize that point. And let the record show that I said this, and it will be proven out to be true. Let's check back on this in the future.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: My deeply-sourced White House insiders are here tonight.

Semafor's Shelby Talcott.

And Politico's Eli Stokols.

I think Republicans hear that, and they're like, Yes, I hope that that is borne out to be true.

SHELBY TALCOTT, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, SEMAFOR: Yes, certainly.

And Donald Trump hopes that it is borne out to be true. Because Donald Trump has sort of been plagued by this issue, where he keeps saying, We're not going to touch Social Security, we're not going to touch these things. And then, you have people in his administration kind of almost counteracting that. And so, I think this was a -- Donald Trump is probably very happy to hear this tonight, to try to get that clarification.

But at the same time, DOGE is inside the Social Security Administration, and they are making changes, and those changes can have negative effects. And so, it's going to be really interesting to see what actually plays out, as DOGE continues to come in and make these cuts, to areas that include the Social Security Administration.

COLLINS: Well, and part of that is that -- one of the claims that they made tonight, it was one of the software engineers that said, 40 percent of the phone calls to Social Security attempting to basically change beneficiary information, this is a part of a change, we saw last week, are fraudulent. They said 15 million (ph) people, aged 120- plus, were on agency's rolls.

We know that less than 1 percent of what Social Security pays out was found to actually be fraudulent.

Obviously, anything that's fraudulent, people do not support. But if you look at the grand scheme of things. But I think it raises questions over what they're saying they're seeing, what's actually happening, and what they are doing to fix it.

ELI STOKOLS, WHITE HOUSE AND FOREIGN AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT, POLITICO: Well, the entire mission of DOGE is to root out waste, fraud and abuse. That's the stated mission.

But we have seen, over the last couple months, since this whole thing started, that a lot of the claims of waste, fraud and abuse, that Elon Musk and others involved with DOGE have made, have had to be walked back.

He's saying, I'm saying this, about Social Security checks, hold me accountable. But he's also stood in the Oval Office next to the President and said, Well, we're going to make mistakes. Trying to wash away all the misstatements that he has made.

I saw the clip about 40 percent of fraud, shooting around X and other social media sites. Republicans were seizing on that. And so in that sense, maybe it's effective public relations, which I think is what this interview is.

We had polls this month showing that DOGE is not popular, Musk is not popular. Two-thirds of Americans now don't want to buy a Tesla. And there are a lot of people who have wondered, Why didn't they do something like this sooner?

We remember him on stage at CPAC with the chainsaw. That image wasn't working. So, you have a much more sort of sedate Elon Musk with more serious people, seated behind him today, trying to maybe put a different face on DOGE.

But I think when they make these claims, the public will rightly be fairly skeptical about what they're saying about waste, fraud and abuse, especially because, as you point out, the inspector general report, a year ago--

COLLINS: Yes.

STOKOLS: --found that 1 percent of Social Security payments were fraudulent.

COLLINS: Yes, and my question about the 40 percent of phone calls that wasn't clarified was, does that mean they're successful, or just 40 percent are trying? Because that doesn't mean that they are--

STOKOLS: Right.

COLLINS: --actually successful in changing the information.

But when you look at the people who are surrounding Elon Musk, if we can pull up that image one more time, just the seven men who are around him, those are the top officials working on this.

I should note, one thing that stood out, none of them are named, Amy Gleason, who is -- who the White House has named, actually in court, saying that she's the actual Administrator of DOE. She was not there, speaking to this.

But we did hear from one. He's the Airbnb co-founder. He's not the -- he's not still there. He's on the Board, but he's not actively running Airbnb, from what I understand. But he shared a vision that he has for the federal government.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE GEBBIA, AMERICAN DESIGNER, DOGE EMPLOYEE: We really believe that the government can have an Apple Store-like experience, beautifully designed, great user experience, modern systems.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: What does that say to you about what they're hoping to do here?

TALCOTT: I mean, they're hoping to drastically rehaul the federal government, that's clear.

And I think it was also interesting in that interview, they kept talking about, like, computer systems and stuff like that. It's clear that they want to upgrade sort of everything in the federal government to what they've called private sector standards.

That might be difficult to do in that time frame that Elon Musk also mentioned during that interview, because he is a Special Government employee, he only has a certain amount of time to do it. And he says that he's confident that they're going to get this done.

[21:25:00]

But these are massive, massive changes that they want to take from the top to the bottom down of the federal government.

COLLINS: Yes, and as Bret Baier was interviewing Elon Musk, he was talking about what Elon Musk has talked about, the sacrifice that he's making to do this.

The other top -- those are other people, who run companies and are working in the federal government, they kind of made a similar argument. They don't have to be doing this. They're choosing to put their skills to work here, and hoping that it will be -- will be good.

But as Elon Musk was being interviewed by Bret Baier, Bret Baier asked him about, sometimes maybe he feels like he's wrongfully criticized, but sometimes maybe rightfully criticized, like when he called Senator Mark Kelly of Arizona, a combat veteran, a traitor, after he got back from Ukraine.

This answer, I found to be quite interesting.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BAIER: Senator Mark Kelly posted on X about his trip to Ukraine, to push for continuing to send U.S. weapons and support there, and you posted that he was a traitor. Why do that?

MUSK: Well, I think somebody should be -- should care about the interests of the United States above the interests of another country.

BAIER: Sure.

MUSK: And if they don't, they're a traitor.

BAIER: Yes, but he's a decorated veteran, a former astronaut, a sitting U.S. senator.

MUSK: That doesn't mean he's -- it's OK for him to put the interests of another country above America.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Wow.

STOKOLS: I mean, it's remarkable thing to say about someone who's worn the uniform of this country.

But also, it is very much in line with the view that Elon Musk has expressed before, that JD Vance and others. It's sort of a commonly- held view in this White House.

And it's not necessarily in line with what a lot of Republicans on Capitol Hill, and a lot of other Republicans who are sort of not full- fledged MAGA members would say, that that it is in the U.S. interest to be defending Ukraine, because they are fighting against an autocrat who invaded another country. They are defending democratic values.

Elon Musk, JD Vance, others in this White House, clearly don't feel that way. And so, to go as far as to call someone a traitor, who disagrees on the issue, is sort of a remarkable statement.

But it just also tells you how much the Overton window, or the sort of median position, in the Republican Party on foreign policy. Used to be a very hawkish party, very pro-defense of American values, the National Security party. That's not the sort of norm or the center in this current version of the Republican Party of Donald Trump's White House.

COLLINS: Yes, he didn't backtrack at all.

Eli Stokols. Shelby Talcott. Great to have you both here.

Up next. You saw today, Congresswoman Elise Stefanik looked like she'd been ready -- getting ready to start her new role as the United States Ambassador to the United Nations. But President Trump has suddenly asked her to stay in Congress. More on the back story, ahead.

[21:30:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: President Trump's first Cabinet pick for his second term is no longer going to be joining that Cabinet. The President has personally asked New York congresswoman, Elise Stefanik, to withdraw her nomination for United Nations ambassador, as she was being -- as she was on the verge of being confirmed by the Senate.

Moments ago, we heard the first comments from her, personally, on this matter.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. ELISE STEFANIK (R-NY): I have been proud to be a team player. The President knows that. He and I had multiple conversations today. And we are committed to delivering results on behalf of the American people. And as always, I'm committed to delivering results on behalf of my constituents.

You see a highly, highly politicized radical left trying to do everything they can to defeat the President. And this is about stepping up as a team.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Now here's the backstory. The President asked Stefanik to stay in Congress, and he wrote on Truth Social today, confirming reporting as much, saying, With a very tight Majority, I don't want to take a chance on anyone else running for Elise's seat. There are others that can do a good job at the United Nations.

Now, Stefanik, well, certainly seemed well on her way to the United Nations. You were seeing that she was sharing highlights from her experience in Congress, on social media, doing a farewell to her, in her district. But now, she will stay on Capitol Hill to play her part in that ultra-slim majority. But it remains to be seen what leadership role she'll have, after she gave up her number three leadership post to take this job.

My political sources tonight:

Ashley Allison, White House senior policy adviser under President Obama.

And Shermichael Singleton, a Republican strategist.

Shermichael, is this just math for the White House, in terms of clearly, Republicans seem to be nervous about having enough numbers to get Trump's legislative agenda passed, they need Elise Stefanik that badly?

SHERMICHAEL SINGLETON, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Look, we do have a slim majority. I want to salute Congresswoman Stefanik. I've known her a long time. It takes a lot to bypass such a monumental job, position like being U.N. ambassador.

With that said, Emperor Hochul, Governor Hochul is about to find out the emperor has no clothes, because she was willing to essentially not allow someone to run for that seat up to a year, which essentially would mean close to a million New Yorkers who she's supposed to represent and serve as governor wouldn't have representation in Congress.

So, I think it's less about the numbers, and more so about would that seat be vacant for a year, who could Republicans potentially put up to run, and when. We have no idea. So I think the President looked at the reality, I think the Congresswoman looked at the reality, and ultimately made the right decision.

[21:35:00]

But I got to say, shame on Governor Hochul for threatening to not allow a special election to occur for a year. The people in that district deserved an opportunity to vote for someone else. COLLINS: Well, and Democrats are taking this tonight and saying, Maybe this is a sign that we were going to -- we're going to do better, that we have the synergy on our side.

They were probably not going to flip that seat. But obviously, that was a question here, in terms of this reliably red area that Republicans didn't want to take a chance with the New York special election, given how long it could take and how the result could be.

ASHLEY ALLISON, WHITE HOUSE SENIOR POLICY ADVISER UNDER OBAMA, NATIONAL COALITIONS DIRECTOR FOR BIDEN-HARRIS 2020: Yes, they are -- Mike Johnson has to work every day, all day, around the clock, to keep his conference together, and not to lose one vote.

COLLINS: And Mike Johnson will tell you that.

ALLISON: And he will tell you that. And the President knows that.

And just be clear. The Trump administration has done a lot. But they have passed no real legislative agenda yet. They've passed nothing. They have--

SINGLETON: I'm not interrupting you. I'm going to let you finish, Ashley.

ALLISON: Right, OK. They've passed the CR.

SINGLETON: Go ahead (ph).

ALLISON: They've passed -- they have passed -- all the -- all these magnificent bills that he was going to pass, they haven't done it, and they have the House and the Senate. So, Donald Trump is saying, at some point, hopefully, I'll get some legislation passed. And he doesn't want to have an open seat.

Whether the governor was going to run a special election or not, there are other special elections happening from other members of Congress--

SINGLETON: Yes.

ALLISON: --that the President tapped, or tapped, and then they have also stepped down, from the House, and it was just too risky.

Now here's what I will say to Democrats. This is not a victory lap, OK? They still have the majority. If you think that you could have flipped that seat, or even got close in the margins, you need to ask why. And if you don't have the answer, that's what you need to be focused on, tonight.

SINGLETON: Which they don't have the answer, by the way. They do not have the answer.

And I just want to say, as it pertains to legislation, John Thune just announced yesterday that he was going to agree to raising the debt ceiling with Mike Johnson reconciliation. That's a good thing. We're not talking about that a lot, because obviously we keep talking about this fricking Signal thing. But there are some movements that we're seeing on both the House and Senate side.

COLLINS: Well, but can we talk about what's happening in -- I like how you described this, like major scandal that's engulfing them, as the fricking Signal thing.

ALLISON: Signal.

COLLINS: I'm not sure that's not the White House would describe it, but maybe with an expletive.

But can we talk what's happening in Florida?

SINGLETON: Well I can say that (ph) not here. I don't think.

COLLINS: You can.

ALLISON: It's after 8.

COLLINS: Your mom might not like it.

OK. Anyway. But can we talk what's happening in Florida tonight?

ALLISON: Yes.

COLLINS: Because the President was calling into these tele rallies that are being held. One of them is to replace Mike Waltz. I mean, part of this why Elise Stefanik is not joining, is people like Mike Waltz have joined, and taken away those numbers from Mike Johnson.

The guy who's supposed to be replacing Mike Waltz in a district he won by 33 points, appears to be in trouble tonight, and is essentially running this campaign, where they thought it would be OK. But it seems that Republicans are coming under pressure. And the White House is putting the pressure on Randy Fine to make sure he wins this race.

SINGLETON: I mean, look, he's going to win the race. We know that for a fact. I think the concern is that he--

COLLINS: Is he?

SINGLETON: Of course, he is. He's just not going to have the numbers that Waltz had. He's not going to have -- he's going to underperform Trump, essentially.

And that's not necessary, but the guy isn't out there campaigning. Like, just because it's a safe-R district, it doesn't mean you don't have to get out there and actually do the job of running. Which is why the White House is like, Dude, what in the hell are you doing? Members on the House side, who are charged with getting Republicans elected, have said, Get your stuff together. I'll put it in that way.

COLLINS: Well that's--

ALLISON: You're being real explicit tonight, Shermichael.

SINGLETON: Well because -- because -- here's my thing, like we have-- COLLINS: But he's actually quoted them. They--

SINGLETON: --well we have a slim majority. It's like, What are you doing?

ALLISON: Yes, What are you doing?

SINGLETON: Get your butt out there--

ALLISON: Why am I asking -- why am I asking my nominee--

SINGLETON: --and work hard.

ALLISON: --to step down--

SINGLETON: Of course.

ALLISON: --for the U.N. ambassador, so we keep our majority, and you're up in a special election, and you're not doing what you're doing.

SINGLETON: Yes, well, thank you.

ALLISON: So I don't know if -- I don't know Florida as well as I know some of the other states. It's hard to lose a district that he--

SINGLETON: It is.

ALLISON: --somebody won by 33 points within just what, like five months? That's a real swing. I had to tell you, that swing happens, Republicans need to beware.

SINGLETON: It's not happening. Not happening.

ALLISON: But even -- but even if it -- even cuts -- is cut in half, that is a strong indicator. If it happened in Wisconsin, it might not mean as much. But happening in Florida, a place where Democrats haven't won in some time, cutting a district that is a 33-plus district in half, even by a quarter? I would not -- I would not just sleep on that, I would say.

SINGLETON: Well, I think that's a fair critique. I don't think it will be by a quarter. But I do think there's a chance that he could underperform the President, and he doesn't have to underperform the President, which is why so many Republicans are so annoyed by this.

COLLINS: But what will Republicans read into that? Will it be quality of the candidate and their campaigning, or will it say something more as to what we're -- you know, we're all trying to read the tea leaves, with the town halls and everything that we're seeing in response to Trump and DOGE.

SINGLETON: Look, I think -- I think, the President is clearly trying to give him a necessary boost, so that he doesn't underperform. I certainly get that the optics aren't necessarily great there. This is just a lazy candidate. I mean, I'm just going to be honest about it. There are some candidates, you've worked for candidates, who work hard. They get on the phones, they go knocking on doors, they show up for events. And hell, I've worked for some where I'm just like, Do you really want this?

ALLISON: No way, yes.

SINGLETON: Because I can't tell.

ALLISON: Yes.

SINGLETON: And this is one of those candidates.

ALLISON: Yes.

SINGLETON: But hey, kudos to the White House for really trying to get him out there, though, because this is an easy seat for us to maintain.

[21:40:00]

ALLISON: I do think, though, that what -- sometimes, a pivot -- with a race like this, people know. It might not really have impact in the broader public ecosystem. But in a race like this, where Republicans feel like they have this mandate, if Democrats can make inroads--

SINGLETON: We do.

ALLISON: They don't. But--

SINGLETON: We do.

ALLISON: They don't. But if you feel like Democrats can make some inroads, it stops the momentum that feels like it's happening in Washington. And so that also is why I think Democrats are paying close attention.

Also, the fundraising numbers are outrageous for this Democratic candidate in that region.

The other thing I'm watching is how much Elon Musk shows up in the last minute and supports (ph). He just made his first contribution into the race.

SINGLETON: Yes.

ALLISON: That outside money could play a big impact.

SINGLETON: Elon, we need like $10 million, man. Please, help us out here.

ALLISON: Yes, buy our elections, Elon. Buy our elections.

COLLINS: Shermichael Singleton. Ashley Allison. Great to have you both. Up next here tonight. We heard an update from the Secretary of State, Marco Rubio, today. He defended revoking student visas, when he was asked about the remarkable scene that you're watching here. Officers, immigration officers, detaining a Tufts University student. We're going to show you the full video, and speak to my next source about this matter and what's looking into this.

[21:45:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: Tonight, a Tufts University PhD student remains detained without any charges. Rumeysa Ozturk is the latest foreign national arrested by immigration officers.

You can watch it all on this surveillance video, where Ozturk was on her way to break the Ramadan fast this week, when six plainclothes officers, as you're watching here, surrounded her near her apartment, that's in Somerville, Massachusetts. The officers revealed their badges. Only once she had been restrained. They kept their faces covered, for most of what you're watching.

The Department of Homeland Security says that they are arguing that Ozturk, quote, Engaged in activities in support of Hamas, but they haven't specified exactly what those were.

Here's what we do know from our reporting. She published this March 2024 Op-Ed, where she is a co-author, as you can see here, with several names there on that byline, she's the first one, calling for the university to divest from companies that had ties to Israel because of the war in Gaza.

That's something that the Secretary of State, Marco Rubio, cited today, when he was defending her detention.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARCO RUBIO, SECRETARY OF STATE: If you apply for a visa to enter the United States and be a student, and you tell us that the reason why you're coming to the United States is not just because you want to write op-eds, but because you want to participate in movements that are involved in doing things like vandalizing universities, harassing students, taking over buildings, creating a ruckus, we're not going to give you a visa.

I go to your house and I start putting mud on your couch and spray- painting your kitchen, I bet you you're going to kick me out. Well, we're going to do the same thing if you come into the United States as a visitor and create a ruckus for us. We don't want it. We don't want it in our country. Go back and do it in your country, but you're not going to do it in our country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: My source tonight is CNN Legal Analyst, Joey Jackson.

And it's great to have you, Joey.

Because Ozturk has not been charged with a crime. What we heard from DHS officials is that he determined her activities have, quote -- he being Secretary Rubio, have, quote, Potentially serious adverse foreign policy consequences.

As an attorney, is that enough to arrest someone, in this situation?

JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Kaitlan, good to be with you.

The answer is absolutely not, right? We are living in the upside-down right now. The foundation of our country, really two things that we think about.

The first thing is the First Amendment. I'm allowed to disagree with you, tonight or any other night. We can have a robust debate. My views might be extreme. Your views might be extreme. But we get to express them. And that's the essence of our democracy. That's how it's been, that's how it should be, right? First Amendment, number one.

Number two, due process. You just don't get to call people, lunatics, get to say that people are doing bad things, and tearing up buildings. Generally, right, we, attorneys, have to produce evidence in a court of law. Everyone could be called something. People can castigate others. That's fine. But you have to be held to proof.

And so, you just can't start rounding up people, and saying they have views that are inconsistent from yours, or inconsistent from your policy choices, so they have to be removed from the country.

What is the criminality for what she's been charged? If Mr. Rubio is right, with regard to her activities, being tearing up the school, offending regulations, doing all these things? When was she charged? When was she prosecuted? Were those charges sustained?

We can disagree, Kaitlan, all night and all day. I can protest. In fact, the essence of a college education is protesting, expressing views, writing Op-Eds and disagreeing with teachers, disagreeing with fellow students. It makes us better. So, when I say we're living in the upside-down, we are.

Last point, Kaitlan, and that's this. The problem is, is that you have now the Republicans controlling everything. They control the presidency, they control the Congress, and they have a supermajority in the Supreme Court.

So what's going to be of value to me, as this moves forward, is, are we going to have a Supreme Court that rubber-stamps illegality? Are they going to stand up for the principles of the Constitution, no matter what side you're on?

This is a democracy that we're not going to recognize soon, if we allow things like this to continue.

COLLINS: Yes, and I should -- for people wondering, Well, then if Joey Jackson says they can't do this, how are they doing this? They're citing the Immigration and Nationality Act, and this provision of it, and what that -- they've been looking at. Because this isn't the first time we've seen this happen. Obviously, we've been covering this, and watching this.

[21:50:00]

And when we heard from Secretary Rubio today, he was saying that they have revoked hundreds of visas. At one point, he said more than 300 at this point. Listen to him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUBIO: It might be more than 300 at this point. We do it every day. Every time I find one of these lunatics, I take away their visa.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It could -- you're saying it could be more than 300 visas?

RUBIO: Sure. I hope -- I mean, at some point I hope we run out because we've gotten rid of all of them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: You're making that argument that essentially, you don't believe they can do this.

But he's saying, We're going to continue doing this.

JACKSON: So here's the issue, right? The issue is that the Secretary has broad authority. But just because you have broad authority to do something doesn't mean what you do is proper. And that's why decisions that are made, that are discretionary decisions, can be challenged if courts find that they're arbitrary, capricious or abusive of authority.

This is -- this is crazy. It shouldn't happen, and people should be afforded due process.

COLLINS: Joey Jackson, obviously, we'll be watching this very closely. Thanks for joining with your expertise tonight.

JACKSON: Thank you, Kaitlan.

COLLINS: Up next. A preview of the next episode of "THE WHOLE STORY." A shocking look inside America's fentanyl crisis, how doctors are treating newborn babies that are suffering from withdrawal.

[21:55:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: We have a new look for you tonight, at this week's episode of "THE WHOLE STORY WITH ANDERSON COOPER."

Because for the last two years, my colleague, Kate Bolduan, has been documenting the front lines of America's evolving fentanyl crisis, through the eyes of paramedics, dealers, active users. And also a doctor, inside a NICU, treating the youngest victims, newborn babies who are suffering from withdrawal.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DR. LAUREN DAVIDSON, NEONATOLOGIST: She is having some tremors.

The fentanyl crisis has been very real. I mean, opiate use in general. Since the time I started practicing in pediatrics and neonatology, there's been an increase in over 300 percent of patients.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Oh, my God.

DAVIDSON: I know.

What we found is that there are so many of these moms that are using that were not comfortable with sharing that information.

BOLDUAN: If a pregnant woman comes in and she holds this information back, how does that impact the care?

DAVIDSON: If they wouldn't have shared it with their provider, they wouldn't know that it's actually more dangerous to stop using if you're already pregnant. So, they would try to get themselves off of it. And sometimes cold turkey, stop using.

BOLDUAN: People are going to hear that and, What?

DAVIDSON: The baby can die inside. So, the baby will then also go through withdrawal, much like the mom will, if she stops using, and it can cause the baby to actually die in utero.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COLLINS: Kate Bolduan joins me now.

And just to hear that moment there, of -- which actually just seems to go against, as you were reacting there, all conventional wisdom, that actually moms who are deciding about stopping, it could actually kill their baby in the womb.

BOLDUAN: It's -- and that stopped me in my tracks.

And it continued to, over this two-year journey that this project has taken us on, continued to return to that these women are stigmatized and judged and wracked with guilt, and they're faced with this horrendous choice of they are pregnant -- they are addicted, they are pregnant, and then they realize they need to stay on this drug, while they are -- while they're also taking prenatal vitamins and watching what they eat, Kaitlan, that is what they told me, in order to keep their baby alive.

It's really encapsulate -- encapsulated these mothers that we followed, encapsulated the evolving nature of this crisis. With overdose deaths coming down, you now have this wave of people who are living with addiction and recovery, to this horrendously powerful drug.

COLLINS: Yes. What else stood out to you? What else are we going to see on Sunday night, just in the -- in the two years that you've been following this?

BOLDUAN: Some amazing courage of people who have never spoken out before, telling their stories.

Mothers who are addicted to fentanyl, and pregnant, and their journey. I mean, we've now followed children, who are now 2-years-old because we followed their pregnancy and their birth.

Drug dealers speaking publicly, speaking to us on camera, because he says he wants to tell his story, because they are often at the center of this crisis, and most blamed.

EMTs using a first-in-the-nation program of using a -- not just NARCAN to keep people alive and bring them back, but also a drug called Buprenorphine, as a secondary medication in order to try to help them with the withdrawal symptoms. And it's shown huge success, like a six- fold increase in the likelihood that these -- that these people will end up in treatment within 30 days.

So, a lot of -- there's a ton of heartbreak in this, there has to be, because it's about the fentanyl crisis and addiction. But through the raw and real journey that we took over two years, seeing this evolving crisis, we also found a remarkable amount of compassion and hope, that I really can't wait to share with everybody.

COLLINS: Yes, well I can't wait to watch it.

[22:00:00]

Kate Bolduan, thank you for studying this for two years. And can't wait to watch. Thanks for joining tonight.

BOLDUAN: Thanks, Kaitlan.

COLLINS: And be sure to tune in everyone, who just saw that. You can watch the whole episode of "THE WHOLE STORY WITH ANDERSON COOPER." It's one whole hour, one whole story aired, by Kate, this Sunday, at 08:00 p.m. Eastern and Pacific, only here on CNN.

Thank you all so much for joining us tonight.

"CNN NEWSNIGHT" is up next.