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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Trump: Tariffs Will Mean "A Booming Country"; Trump Fires At Least Three National Security Staffers After Meeting With Far-Right Activist Laura Loomer; Trump: I Want Musk To "Stay As Long As Possible" In DOGE Role. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired April 03, 2025 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: --don't miss "The War on Government: A Fareed Zakaria Special" at Sunday, at 08:00 p.m. Eastern and Pacific, right here on CNN.
And following that, at 09:00, her fashionable looks and outrageous lies took social media by storm. How Anna Delvey, now Anna Delvey talks to Jake Tapper, about her infamous time in the spotlight, a new episode of "United States of Scandal."
I'll be back on tomorrow morning, when the markets open at 09:30. Brace yourself. That one could be something too.
That's all for us tonight. The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Straight from THE SOURCE tonight.
President Trump shrugs, as the stock market plunges, and the dollar weakens. Amid warnings that his tariffs could throw the United States into a recession, the President likened it to a surgical procedure.
Plus, the President confirms and defends the firing of those several national security staffers today. My latest reporting on who convinced him to do it. Not his National Security Advisor, but a far-right activist who once said that 9/11 was an inside job.
And the White House declared it was case closed on the Signal scandal. But the Pentagon's watchdog just opened it back up, launching a brand- new investigation.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
Tonight, heads of state, business leaders, and hundreds of millions of consumers, are all anxiously watching the trade war that is now engulfing the planet, stunned by what they saw on Wall Street today.
But over at the White House, just a short time ago, we heard from Vice President, JD Vance, who actually said he thought it was going to be much worse. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JD VANCE (R), U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: We're feeling good. Look, I frankly thought in some ways it could be worse in the markets, because this is a big transition.
ROB SCHMITT, NEWSMAX HOST, ROB SCHMITT TONIGHT: Yes.
VANCE: You saw the President said, earlier today, it's like a patient who was very sick, we did the operation, and now it's time to make the patient better.
SCHMITT: Yes.
VANCE: And that's exactly what we're doing.
Look, one bad day in the stock market compared to what President Trump said earlier today, and I think he's right about this--
SCHMITT: Yes.
VANCE: --we're going to have a booming stock market for a long time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Here's what Vice President Vance likened to one bad day in the stock market. Trillions of dollars in value for American companies vanished, as U.S. stocks suffered their worst day in years, making it the biggest one-day wipeout since 2020.
Those numbers, of course, mean a huge difference in the lives of millions of Americans. Because with shoes and clothes mostly made overseas, companies like Nike, Under Armour, Ralph Lauren, and Levi, all down double-digits. The stores where you probably shop for your family, Amazon, Target, Best Buy, Kohl's, all down.
Restaurants concerned about people eating out less, also took hits across the board. And airlines went from high hopes of strong profits, to new concerns about people canceling their upcoming trips. Even investors in your bank are worried about the threat of a recession.
But one person, who says today that he is not worried? The President. He shrugged off the market turmoil today, and predicted an eventual rebound as he left Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: It's to be expected. We're a -- this is a patient that was very sick. We inherited, we really inherited a terrible economy, as you know.
It was a sick patient, it went through an operation on Liberation Day. And it's going to be -- it's going to be a booming country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Not exactly the boom that economists have been talking about.
Because, as for other countries responding, despite what you heard from the Treasury Secretary, Scott Bessent, here last night, urging countries to sit back, take a deep breath, don't immediately retaliate, as he said, this is what we heard from them today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARK CARNEY, CANADIAN PRIME MINISTER: They're all unjustified, unwarranted, and, in our judgment, misguided.
OLAF SCHOLZ, GERMAN CHANCELLOR (through translator): I believe the latest decision on tariffs, by the U.S. President, are fundamentally wrong.
EMMANUEL MACRON, FRENCH PRESIDENT (through translator): It's a very bad idea, because we have a strength. It's a market of 450 million residents. That's Europe.
YOSHIMASA HAYASHI, JAPANESE CHIEF CABINET SECRETARY (through translator): We are extremely disappointed and regret that such measures have been implemented.
LUIZ INACIO LULA DA SILVA, BRAZILIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): We will take all appropriate measures to defend our companies and our Brazilian workers.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now, the first major response came out of Canada today, announcing a 25 percent counter-tariff on cars that are imported from the United States that are not compliant with that trade deal that the President negotiated during his first term in office.
Other nations are waiting to see whether the President sees these cuts as permanent, some of them say, or maybe as a way to negotiate.
Despite the President's aides insisting that it is the former, he contradicted them today when he argued maybe it's the latter.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOWARD LUTNICK, SECRETARY OF COMMERCE: I don't think there's any chance they're going to -- that President Trump's going to back off his tariffs.
PETER NAVARRO, COUNSELOR TO THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This is not a negotiation, Jesse. This is a national emergency.
TRUMP: The tariffs give us great power to negotiate, always have.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Asked if he was willing to make a deal with other countries, the President told reporters, quote, It depends.
My top economic and political sources are here tonight.
[21:05:00]
And Jennifer, when you look at this and you hear the Vice President say, It's just one bad day in the stock market. Is it that, or is this something that we're going to continue to see?
JENNIFER HILLMAN, SENIOR FELLOW FOR TRADE, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS, FORMER GENERAL COUNSEL, OFFICE OF THE U.S. TRADE REPRESENTATIVE: Well, again, I think we have to reflect on the fact that this is the largest tax increase that we've had in more than 50 years. It's taking tariffs up to the highest level they have been since the 1930s.
So, I don't think it's going to be a quick flash in the pan. These are very, very dramatic tariffs, and a huge increase from everywhere that we have been, again, for more than -- for more than 50 years.
COLLINS: Marc Short, you were there, the first time that President Trump was in office.
We keep hearing aides say economists were wrong when Trump did this before. And he implemented tariffs, and they predicted madness, and it didn't happen. It's not going to happen now.
But the scope is so much bigger this time around.
MARC SHORT, FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF TO VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE: Yes, he never did this before, Kaitlan. The reality is that there were very targeted tariffs toward China, in the first administration, and some steel and aluminum.
The reality is, I think, markets rallied between Election Day and inauguration, because there was an expectation he would continue his deregulatory agenda and tax relief agenda. I think, as the markets begun to digest how, in fact, wild this is, and how economically illiterate it is, they've obviously taken a different approach.
And for the notion that we're going to be helping to save manufacturing jobs, you've seen Whirlpool announce layoffs. You've seen Cleveland-Cliffs, the biggest steel manufacturer in America, announce layoffs. If they thought this would be working, they would not be announcing layoffs. It's hurting the economy.
And there's even a national security component, Kaitlan, because when we were able to isolate China in the first administration, we had trade deals with other nations. By basically assessing tariffs across the entire globe, you're now pushing those countries into China's hands. And so, it's not just an economic catastrophe, it's a national security problem too.
COLLINS: What are you hearing from White House officials in terms of, is this the response that they predicted here? I mean, I've seen a lot of them saying, blaming the media--
JASMINE WRIGHT, POLITICS REPORTER, NOTUS: Yes. COLLINS: --or saying that this isn't -- you know, this is exaggerated compared to what they think is ultimately they believe going to be successful here.
WRIGHT: Yes. I mean, I think what you hear from when I talk to White House sources is basically they figure that this reaction was kind of baked in. They thought that the markets would react kind of wonky, because they do not want these tariffs. But that eventually that they would get to a point where they'd be OK, just like you heard President Trump say.
I think one thing is like just interesting, being a White House reporter, right now, which is that, you can go through the whole day, where White House aides are basically saying. This is not a negotiation, this is an emergency. And then five hours later, you hear from the President, who says, Yes, this is a good tool for negotiation. It's just such a fascinating thing.
But I'll tell you, I asked Karoline Leavitt, earlier this week, what market indicators they were looking at, when trying to assess whether or not these tariffs would be successful. And she basically shrugged off the stock market. She said, That's not real America, and this -- and the stock market will be fine.
But I think if people are looking at their 401(k)s, which are real Americans, I think when people are looking at all these other indicators, they don't feel fine right now. The question is whether or not they feel fine in a week or in a year, as President Trump said, that's how long it may take our manufacturing to come back online.
COLLINS: You mentioned what the President's top aides are saying.
We heard from the Commerce Secretary, Howard Lutnick, earlier, essentially saying, Trust Trump.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LUTNICK: Let Donald Trump run the global economy. He knows what he's doing. He's been talking about it for 35 years. You got to trust Donald Trump in the White House. That's why they put him there. Let him fix it, OK?
PAMELA BROWN, ANCHOR/CHIEF INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: Right, I understand.
LUTNICK: It's broken. Let him fix it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL SCHERER, STAFF WRITER, THE ATLANTIC: No one makes a deal like Donald Trump, right? I think, I mean, for them, obviously, they have faith in their boss.
Donald Trump has had almost a religious belief that tariffs are a good thing. Going back to 1987, if you remember that newspaper ad he took out, in The New York Times and The Washington Post, calling for tariffs against Japan at the time. That was our big foreign trade.
COLLINS: Yes, we played the comments of him, last night, telling Oprah--
SCHERER: Right.
COLLINS: --that Japan was treating the United States so unfairly. It is a long -- long deeply-held belief of him.
SCHERER: And the truth is, as a political matter, that's become a winning message.
We had Obama talking about need to rebuild American manufacturing and the damage of NAFTA.
You had Biden doing a whole bunch of things, during his time in office, to try and rebuild American manufacturing.
And even during the last campaign, the Harris campaign internally, they would -- advisers would say, We can't really talk about tariffs, because tariffs are actually kind of popular, politically.
And now, the rubber is meeting the road, and it -- I think America is going to -- about to be educated about what this really means. If the economists are right, we're headed towards a -- towards a pretty rough road. And I think the politics of this issue are going to flip very quickly.
COLLINS: Well, and we know why now. They're arguing it's a national emergency. But on the how of how they calculated all of this, people were trying to crack the code of this, last night. I believe we have the equation that we can show you that was published with the White House today.
Basically someone -- this is what it looked like on the USTR website, which is, the Treasury Secretary, last night -- last night, told me, when I asked him how they calculated it, that they've got loads of data, they looked at it.
[21:10:00]
But a reporter looked at it, and essentially, it's taking a country's trade deficit, dividing it by its exports to the United States, and multiplying that by half.
Is that -- is that typical?
HILLMAN: The reporter is correct. That is exactly what they did. And again, it has nothing to do with the reality of what they were suggesting.
What they said is, again, you remember the President saying, If they charge us, we'll charge them. So the theory behind this was, We were going to impose so-called reciprocal tariffs. We were going to put on tariffs at the level of what the other countries were charging us. And then, look at what they did. For example, Korea has ended up with a 26 percent tariff. And yet, what do we have with Korea? A free trade agreement. So what was Korea charging for U.S. exports? Zero. Zero duties. And yet, they're ending up with this reciprocal tariff of 26 percent. Because it's--
COLLINS: So, you don't think it's technically--
HILLMAN: --it's not calculated on the basis of how much another country is actually imposing on the United States. It is exactly as you describe it. How much was the trade deficit that we ran with that country, divided by their exports, divided by two. And that's the number that everybody got.
COLLINS: So, we shouldn't be calling it a reciprocal tariff, is what you're saying?
HILLMAN: No, it is not a reciprocal tariff.
SHORT: Look, I think that the president--
COLLINS: I mean, can I just say what the Vice President said about this, last night, who you used to obviously work for? He called it the largest peacetime tax in United States' history.
SHORT: Yes.
COLLINS: The White House, and Howard Lutnick, the Commerce Secretary, responded by calling him bitter, and basically saying he didn't know what he was talking about.
SHORT: Well, they're obviously not responding on the facts. The reality is, this is an enormous tax hike. And the reality is, I think that the President is committed to this is what he's always believed, as Michael said. There's many things he's been flexible on. He's always been consistent on the protectionism. But he doesn't like the notion of being laughed at.
And I think that when you see this comedic sort of formula that's so sophomoric, and you see them rolling out tariffs on small islands that have much larger penguin populations than they actually do people, those things are not going to sit well with the President.
Maybe we're not appreciating the amount of fentanyl that the penguins are swimming in. But I do think that those sorts of stories are going to bother him in the long-term. And that could be actually what causes him to actually have some changes.
COLLINS: Republicans defend the White House, over pretty much everything. I mean, you know that, from working there, in the first term.
It's so interesting to see what Republican lawmakers are saying now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX): Tariffs are a tax on consumers, and I'm not a fan of jacking up taxes on American consumers.
SEN. MARKWAYNE MULLIN (R-OK): Sometimes in business, you have to have short-term -- short-term pain to have long-term gain.
SEN. JERRY MORAN (R-KS): It's very damaging. Steel and aluminum is also a significant component of what we manufacture, including ag equipment, in Kansas, and so the prices go up.
SEN. STEVE DAINES (R-MT): There's always short-term blowback, but we're looking at the long haul here.
SEN. THOM TILLIS (R-NC): Anyone who says there may be a little bit of pain before we get things right, need to talk about farmers who are one crop away from bankruptcy. They don't have time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I mean, it's interesting to see how they're responding to this.
WRIGHT: Yes, I mean, I think what has been true is that reporters, Democrats have been maybe even a little bit surprised at the fact that Republicans haven't been willing to buck President Trump on basically anything for the last two months. But now you're starting to see some cracks.
I think Republicans are kind of divided into two camps right now. There's one camp with Markwayne Mullin inside of that one, basically saying, Let's see how it goes. Let's give him a little bit of breathing room so he can prove his case. And there's another case moving to try to curtail the executive -- what power the executive branch has, when it comes to putting in tariffs. And so I think it's going to be interesting to see how this goes.
But the reality is, is that these lawmakers are going to have to go home, over Easter, and they're going to have to talk to people, who are experiencing their 401(k)s being wiped out.
SCHERER: Well--
WRIGHT: They're going to have to talk to people who may not be happy with this. And then, then what do they say? Because we know that that's when folks express a lot of anger.
SCHERER: There's a scenario where the backlash goes very quickly. The stock market continues to deteriorate. You're going to have Republicans joining together in the Senate, objecting to this.
Trump has it out here, and that's -- that he can -- he doesn't mind reversing himself entirely. He's done it before, many times. And he's already set the predicate here. He said, Look, I brought back trillions of dollars of investment. He'll just pick a number, and could maybe in a month, start pulling these things back.
COLLINS: We'll see what that looks like.
Thanks everyone for being here. And Marc for your humor tonight.
Those tariffs, already triggering hundreds of layoffs, I should note, in very serious matter, at five U.S. auto plants today. What does this mean for those workers? My next source is the head of one of the biggest auto unions in the country. We'll get his thoughts.
[21:15:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, car companies are responding to the President's tariffs.
Stellantis, which makes Jeep and Chrysler, laid off 900 people, at five different plants, in Michigan and Indiana, as the company says those layoffs are temporary, but necessary, because it's pausing production at two of its assembly plants in Canada and Mexico.
Ford, meanwhile, trying to entice people to buy cars now, and they're offering this employee discount pricing, what employees pay essentially, to all shoppers in the United States, through the start of June.
My source tonight is the President of the United Auto Workers Union, which supports President Trump's tariffs. Shawn Fain got his start with Union in 1994, as an electrician at one of the plants that is hit by today's layoffs, actually.
And it's great to have you here, Mr. Fain. You have praised the auto tariffs here, 25 percent, that went into effect last night. What's your response to what Stellantis did today?
SHAWN FAIN, PRESIDENT, UNITED AUTOMOBILE WORKERS: Hey, thanks for having me, Kaitlan.
Look, it's more the same from Stellantis, unfortunately.
It's interesting. The administration has been very clear that these tariffs were coming. They backed off twice now. And now that it's time to be implemented.
[21:20:00]
Ford, obviously, has been proactive. They dropped the price of vehicles. They're extending discounts to consumers. GM announced they're going to bring some work back.
And meanwhile, Stellantis, who's had several months to prepare, announces that they're going to use employees as collateral damage. It's more the same, so.
And that's the thing. There's -- I heard a lot of talk today about, it takes two and a half years and three years to build a plant. There's all this talking heads talking about that, and all this fear- mongering. There's excess capacity all over this country, right now, and Stellantis has excess capacity, right, in Warren, Michigan, where they're laying people off again. They can move Ram Truck production there, in very short order, be producing Ram Trucks.
I'm here in Chattanooga, Tennessee, right now, Volkswagen. Volkswagen produces 75 percent of their vehicles in Mexico. And there's excess capacity right here at this plant. So Lordstown, Ohio, Lordstown assembly plant. I mean, there's plenty of capacity in this country.
People forget about the arsenal of democracy, and how excess capacity in this country was used to support the war effort, and delivered a victory in World War II for America. And so, we really have to look at reality, and quit using fear tactics and scare tactics, and talking about this.
COLLINS: Yes, well, obviously it's a question for those workers, how -- what temporary means to them.
But I'm glad you brought up, how long it would take to ramp up manufacturing, because this has been a real question, just in terms of what that looks like. They can't turn on a dime, as you know.
And the President was asked this today. Here's what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Well, let's say it's a two-year process. They start a plant, and they're big plants. We're giving them approval to also, in many cases, to build the electric facility with it. So you have electric generation and the plant, and they're big plants. Now the good news is a lot of money for them, and they can build them fast, but they're still very big plants. So I'd always say it would take a year and a half to two years.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Would it take a year and a half to two years?
FAIN: Well, I mean, look, I think it's a two-pronged attack here. I mean, look, these companies can build new plants. But the thing they need to do in the immediate, to address this crisis in this country, is use the excess capacity that they already have.
And like I said, we could be producing Ram Trucks right back at Warren Truck, where they've been producing them for 80 years, within a month. It's a choice the company is making, and it's a choice the company is making to sacrifice employees today, versus doing the right thing. So there's a lot of opportunity.
And this goes back just to a bigger issue. I mean, working-class people in this country have been left behind for decades by a broken trade system. Tariffs aren't the solution to everything. Tariffs are a tool in the toolbox. But ultimately, we got to fix the broken trade system.
COLLINS: Yes.
FAIN: And that's the part, unfortunately, when we hear all these talking heads talk about the crisis with the stock market dropping. Where was the cry out of the crisis, when millions of jobs were leaving this country, the last 20 or 30 years?
COLLINS: Well, on that point, when you say tariffs are a tool. I mean, what happens when it's a 10 percent baseline across the board, then two or three times that on some of the biggest U.S. allies and biggest U.S. trading partners?
I mean, your auto workers, maybe they're happy with the auto tariffs. We saw some of them in the Rose Garden, yesterday, cheering the President's moves. But what about when they're paying more for food and clothes and electronics? Are they worried about that tonight?
FAIN: Well, I mean, I think everyone's worried about it. But let's talk about the real problem here. The real problem isn't these tariffs. The real problem here is corporate greed.
I mean, let's talk about the auto industry, from 2020 to 2023, when they jacked up the price of vehicles, 35 percent. It wasn't because wages went up. It wasn't because of tariffs. People were manipulating and price gouging consumer because of a pandemic that was in place. So, it's a choice.
And we heard the same thing, when we were bargaining our contracts in the Big Three, that if we bargain these great conditions for workers and these record contracts, it was going to be end of the world, the companies wouldn't be able to survive.
Guess what happened? We got record contracts. The companies still paid out billions of dollars in dividends and buybacks to shareholders, and they still made billions of dollars in profits. So, we need to be real, and start talking about facts, when we talk about these things.
And I keep hearing the cry -- I've heard this crying, all day, about the stock market. A majority of Americans don't own stock. Working- class people, 60 percent don't have any retirement savings. That's the crisis in this country. That's what we need to be talking about, and how do we -- how do we make the trade laws, and make these things fair, and bring work back that puts people to work, where they can -- where they can have a decent quality of life.
COLLINS: Yes. And on that retirement comment, that's something Senator Bernie Sanders would agree with you on.
[21:25:00]
But I think some people, in the audience watching, who have seen you on this show before, heard you talk, especially during the campaign, at the Democratic Convention and whatnot, they might be surprised to hear you saying, No, I agree with what President Trump is doing on this front.
The Vice President was actually asked about this, earlier tonight, and this was his response to your comments.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCHMITT: How funny is it watching Shawn Fain, the auto work -- the Auto Workers Union guy, who, by the way, picked like--
VANCE: The guy who trashed us.
SCHMITT: --picked a worse horse ever.
VANCE: Yes, right.
SCHMITT: I mean, like, he picked Kamala over Trump.
VANCE: Yes.
SCHMITT: And now he's praising the President. I bet you, he's got to be embarrassed by his choice in this last election.
VANCE: Well, you know, he trashed us.
SCHMITT: Yes.
VANCE: But we're welcome to have--
SCHMITT: Yes.
VANCE: --everybody on the team.
SCHMITT: Yes.
VANCE: And Shawn Fain recognizes what so many auto workers recognize.
SCHMITT: Yes.
VANCE: Which is that President Trump's policies are great. And yes, there is some transition that's going to come along with this, but you're already seeing the evidence that things are getting better.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: What do you make of that?
FAIN: Well, I mean, you know, I mean, let's be blunt about it. There's a lot of things we disagree with this administration on. Like, eliminating contracts for hundreds of thousands of federal workers, attacking a lot of the foundational things that support organized labor in this country, like the NLRB, and the Department of Labor, and OSHA, and free speech rights for people who are exercising their right to protest or sit in. But on this issue, we agree on tariffs.
And this is what's wrong. This is the biggest -- this is the problem of what's wrong in America right now. This is why half of Americans don't vote. Because one party gets in power, and the other party blocks everything. The other party gets in power, and the other party tries to block everything. And what happens in that process is the people get left behind. So leaders, it's time for leaders to step up and lead.
And just because Donald Trump supports tariffs, and we didn't support Donald Trump in the election, doesn't mean we're going to say, Well, because Donald Trump supports it now we're going to -- we're going to say they're bad. We believe this is the right thing to do, at this time, especially for the auto industry, and regardless of political party.
We've been clear about this. We don't care what party people come from. Our mission doesn't change. We expect workers' rights to be taken care of. We expect our leaders of this country to look after working-class people in this country. And that's what we stand for. There's no flip-flopping. There's no 180. It's just doing -- it's having integrity, and that's something that's missing in the political system in this country.
COLLINS: Shawn Fain, great to have you as always. Thank you.
FAIN: Hey, thanks for having me.
COLLINS: Up next. I'll take you inside a wild meeting, inside the Oval Office, that the President had, with the far-right activist, Laura Loomer, that you see here leaving the West Wing. It resulted today in the firings of several national security staffers. More ahead.
[21:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: President Trump confirming tonight that multiple members of the National Security Council have been fired, not because of their role in the Signal controversy, but at the urging of the far-right activist, Laura Loomer.
We spotted Loomer at the White House yesterday. She was greeting the Commerce Secretary, Howard Lutnick, here, before ultimately leaving the White House campus.
She had just come from a meeting with President Trump, inside the Oval Office, where our sources tell us, she showed him a list of nearly a dozen staffers, and argued that they weren't loyal to his agenda, and advocated for them to be fired.
I'm told that the National Security Advisor, Mike Waltz, had just finished his own meeting with the President. He was in the Oval Office, for part of this meeting, with Laura Loomer, as she pushed to fire several of the senior directors on his team.
He defended them. But given the fallout from his role, in that Signal group chat controversy, he doesn't really have much sway, or standing, to urge the President to keep them. That much was proven today, when we were told that at least four people were fired, with more expected.
The President defended the firings and Loomer, who once claimed that 9/11 was an inside job, on Air Force One.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I saw her yesterday for a little while. She makes recommendations of things and people. And sometimes I listen to those recommendations, like I do with everybody. I listen to everybody, and then I make a decision.
Always we're going to let go of people, people that we don't like, or people that we don't think can do the job, or people that may have loyalties to somebody else.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now this all comes as the Pentagon's top watchdog launched a review of the Defense Secretary, Pete Hegseth's use of Signal to talk about those military strikes in Yemen, and whether or not he complied with classification and records retention requirements.
My source tonight sits on the Senate Intelligence Select Committee. The Democratic senator from Colorado, Michael Bennet.
And it's great to have you.
Obviously, you questioned some of the top officials, the CIA Director, the DNI Director, on that Signal group chat fallout. When it comes to this watchdog investigation from the Pentagon, do you have confidence that it will be a thorough, substantive investigation?
SEN. MICHAEL BENNET (D-CO): I think it will be thorough. I think it will be substantive.
It's amazing that there is an acting I.G. in the Defense Department, because, as you know, the President fired 17 inspectors general across the agencies, just to prevent this kind of thing from happening.
But what you're seeing is there's pushback to what Donald Trump is doing as president, from even a guy who's just the acting Inspector General, who is taking a job that somebody else was fired from, because Donald Trump was worried that he wasn't as loyal to him as, let's say, Laura Loomer might be.
COLLINS: And what kind of questions do you want this investigation to answer?
[21:35:00]
BENNET: I think it's important for them to answer why the top national security officials in our government were using Signal to have a discussion about the pending military action in Yemen.
It's important for us to understand whether there was classified information. Although, I will tell you, based on what I've seen, there's literally nothing I've seen more classified than what Pete Hegseth put on that chat, as a member of the Intelligence Committee. So, I know that will be the determination. And whether they were using official phones.
I mean, there are all kinds of things that people in the Pentagon have to do, every day, to comply--
COLLINS: Yes.
BENNET: --and protect the secrets of the United States of America. We want to know if the leadership is doing that too.
COLLINS: The Vice President was asked about the firings of these National Security Council staffers tonight, which is separate from that. I want you to listen to what he said about it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VANCE: The President just decided those folks there, you know, they can be good people.
SCHMITT: Yes.
VANCE: But that they weren't helping his agenda. So he's going to hire the people who do. It's very simple.
This was so different--
SCHMITT: Yes.
VANCE: --from the Biden administration. Where, the Biden administration would not get rid of anybody, they would not force anyone to suffer any consequences.
All the President is saying is, I want my own team, and I want the right team around me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: What does it say to you that the staffers who were fired today were not fired because of the Signal controversy. And he was essentially saying there, that the Biden administration didn't take efforts to, or steps, to fire people, when it warranted being fired.
BENNET: I think it -- what it says to me is that Donald Trump wants loyalty to himself, not to the United States of America.
He had six Secretaries of Defense, I think, in his first term as president, because nobody could stay in the job, because nobody could find a way to stay in the job and be loyal to the Constitution, not just loyal to Donald Trump.
So, it's not surprising that he would put somebody, like Pete Hegseth in, as Secretary of Defense, force my colleagues in the Senate to walk the plank to approve his nomination, just to show who's in charge, at this moment, of the Republican Party, and what kind of loyalty he's demanding from other people.
COLLINS: But what does it say that a 9/11 truther -- she posted a video, said 9/11 was an inside job -- seems to have more sway over who is staffing the National Security Council than the National Security Advisor does. BENNET: That's fairly staggering. But when it's three weeks of people using Signal to reveal classified information about bombings in Yemen, Laura Loomer might turn out to be the least of our problems.
It is a pattern that is disgraceful, and the problem is that it's poorly serving our national -- our national security. It's poorly serving the people that serve in our Department of Defense, and our intelligence agencies. And the American people deserve a lot better than this.
COLLINS: Senator Bennet, thank you for your time tonight.
BENNET: Thanks for having me.
COLLINS: Up next here. We're going to have more of our reporting on that White House meeting. And a reminder. Who is Laura Loomer? What has she said before? That's right after a quick break.
[21:40:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, President Trump defended the far-right activist, Laura Loomer, as a patriot, after he followed her advice to fire several of his own National Security Council staffers, after she argued they were not sufficiently loyal to his agenda.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: So, Laura Loomer is a very good patriot. She is a very strong person.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now, this revelation that Loomer is clearly more influential over who staffs the National Security Council, than the actual National Security Advisor is, comes as Loomer herself has complained publicly about not getting access to the White House, and staff blocking or limiting her access to the President himself. A look at her past comments may show why.
She once said that, If Kamala Harris wins, the White House will quote smell like curry. Comments that Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene condemned.
Loomer also once said, the FBI allows shootings to take place as a way to help the Democrat Party push for gun control in election years.
She called Supreme Court Justice, Amy Coney Barrett, a DEI appointee, showing a family photo with Barrett's two adopted Haitian children. Just to be clear. We are blurring out the faces of her children. Loomer did not.
She also shared a video, claiming that 9/11 was an inside job.
None of that stopped her rise within the President's orbit or his praise for her.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: You've been really very special. You work hard and you are -- you are a very opinionated lady, I have to tell you that. And in my opinion, I like that.
A friend of all of ours, and this woman is amazing. Laura Loomer. Where is she?
(CHEERING)
(APPLAUSE)
TRUMP: Where is Laura? She is amazing.
And a person who has really taken the country by storm. Very powerful person. Very strong person. Very courageous person. A warrior. Laura Loomer.
Laura, where are you?
(CHEERING)
(APPLAUSE)
TRUMP: Thank you, Laura. Great job, you do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: A team of national security and White House insiders join me now.
Marc Short, as someone who is the former Vice President's Chief of Staff, what do you make of, of Loomer's access to the White House? But clearly, also, I think people might see those comments and say, She's this far-right activist. She does have sway with the President, though, obviously.
[21:45:00]
SHORT: I think she does. I do think the President, as he said, listens to a lot of people. I'm not sure that's always bad, Kaitlan.
But I also think that Mike Waltz is one of the stronger people inside the White House. I think it's an incredibly important role. And if you're in a position like that, that basically, you're not getting an opportunity to make your own personnel decisions? I think you have to ask, How much longer are you going to serve in that role?
And so, I hope he continues, because I think that he's a great voice inside that White House. But if you're not being allowed to make your own personnel decisions, then I think there's basically a signal that's being sent to you from above.
COLLINS: Chris, is that how you see it in terms of, obviously, the National Security Advisor typically does pick those senior director roles, gets to tap in there. Obviously, the President makes the ultimate decision here. But they work directly underneath the NSA.
CHRIS MEAGHER, FORMER PENTAGON SENIOR SPOKESPERSON: Yes, and they're obviously entitled to people that they want to be working in those positions. But there are just so many questions about this.
One, what is Laura Loomer putting together this random list of NSC staffers for exactly?
What is Laura Loomer, a right-wing conspiracy theorist, as you pointed out with plenty of examples, what is she doing anywhere near the White House, let alone inside the Oval Office, meeting with the President of the United States?
And on top of that, the President taking her advice over Mike Waltz, the National Security Advisor, on personnel decisions.
If he's going to be -- if the President is going to be accepting random lists of people, who he should be considering firing? I would submit Pete Hegseth and Mike Waltz themselves for Signalgate, for putting classified information in an unclassified space that endangered our troops.
COLLINS: One person she did advocate for the firing of, I was told, was Alex Wong, who is Mike Waltz's principal deputy, his main deputy. He, as of what we know right now is still on the job. He was not fired today. What does that say to you?
WRIGHT: Yes, I mean, I think that it seems like they don't want anybody fired, that was anywhere close to Signalgate. Because at the end of the day, what is true is that Donald Trump does not want to give The Atlantic a skelp (ph). Now let's see how long he lasts, right? Is he gone in two weeks, three weeks, a month? Does he go along with Mike Waltz, if he leaves pretty soon?
I think the reality here, though, and this is what once were said to me, is that even though Susie Wiles, and other folks, who really have tried to make a more professional Oval Office, White House function, they couldn't keep Laura Loomer out for the simple fact that Donald Trump likes her. Not only does he listen to her, but he likes her. He enjoys her. He likes the things that she has to say, and he takes some of them into consideration.
And so, I know that you said that, up to four people. I've heard as many as six people, so far, have been let go. And so the reality is, is that she's basically gotten more skelps (ph) than all of the reporting have so far. And let's see who else falls in the domino effect.
But I think that it is true that Donald Trump likes her, and likes what she says, and there are people within his orbit, who listen to the things that he said -- that she says.
SCHERER: I don't think we're done with this story. I think Loomer is going to continue to look at other departments. I was told today that the President has asked for information about people at the State Department.
This goes back to the campaign, when Charlie Spies, a very well- respected Republican lawyer, was brought in to advise Donald Trump. A group of outside MAGA loyalists came to Trump, around Susie Wiles, and the leadership of the campaign, said, Don't trust him. Here's some things he once said. Spies was eventually pushed out of that campaign. That's going to, I think, continue this entire presidency, going forward.
COLLINS: But you know what -- what to -- in the terms of them not being sufficiently loyal to the President? You saw Mike Waltz getting on the air -- on Marine One with Trump today, and also Sergio Gor, who is the head of personnel for Trump, who led this entire vetting process, over the last few months, including loyalty questions.
I mean, this wasn't just OK, Chris, you're in. They grilled these people if they worked for Vice President Pence, if they worked for Nikki Haley, if they worked for anyone like that.
SHORT: I don't think this is about loyalty or Signalgate. I think it's about what the world view is.
And Mike Waltz comes from a position of believing that America's role in the world, we should have a strong influence. And I think there are people within that White House, including people (ph), who don't want that. They want America to be retreating and have a more isolationist approach.
COLLINS: All right, we'll see if this story continues from here. Thanks, everyone.
And also, he was just sworn in as one of the newest members of the House of Representatives. Speaker Mike Johnson is very happy about this. The Trump-backed candidate, Republican Congressman Randy Fine is here, after pulling off a closer-than-expected special election win in Florida.
Plus, the President tonight talking about Elon's role and his future inside the White House and Washington.
[21:50:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, President Trump says that Elon Musk will stay in his administration for as long as he can.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Just so you understand. I don't want to get it wrong. I want Elon to stay as long as possible. Number one, I like him. Number two, he's doing a great job. Number three, he is a patriot. That's why he's doing this, and he's -- you know, it's very costly for him.
(END VIDEO CLIP) COLLINS: That endorsement, coming, as the leader of DOGE has become a political lightning rod in some parts of the country, as we learned from this week's special elections in Florida and Wisconsin.
My next source won his race in Florida's 6th Congressional District, on Tuesday. Republican Randy Fine is here.
And welcome, now Congressman. Obviously, Speaker Mike Johnson wanted you sworn in as soon as possible.
[21:55:00]
But this was kind of our first taste, to a degree, of what voters were thinking about Elon Musk. I know his super PAC was sending out messages, on your behalf, praising you. How much of a factor do you think he played in the minds of voters, in your district?
REP. RANDY FINE (R-FL): President Trump or Elon Musk?
COLLINS: Elon Musk.
FINE: It's hard to tell, I mean, because they got merged together.
What I will tell you in my district is we saw that Democrats were angry, and they turned out. Because every time President Trump wins, they lose. They don't believe in President Trump's agenda.
But we also saw Republicans, who support President Trump, turn out in record numbers for a special election.
The lines were longer on Election Day than they were last November for voters. And they were so long, they went beyond the zone, where you could actually talk to people. As I talked to dozens of voters on Election Day, the ones who supported me said, Tell President Trump, we're still with him.
COLLINS: But on the Elon Musk of it all, did you hear that from voters, when you were talking to them during the campaign? Or was that not really something that came up?
FINE: No, I hear the opposite. I mean, voters are angry about the kinds of things that Elon Musk is finding. Whether it's the condom boxes, 300-year-olds on Social Security, I mean.
And, by the way, voters are grateful. Elon Musk is the wealthiest guy in the world. He doesn't need to do any of this. He doesn't benefit from any of it. In fact, it hurts his companies. And I think people are grateful.
COLLINS: You just mentioned turnout and excitement. Republicans were sweating your race, near the end of it. I'm sure you heard this from Republican--
FINE: Oh, I did.
COLLINS: --Republican leaders. What did you hear? I mean, we had reporting that they had said, the campaign needed to get its stuff together, but they used an expletive. What was the feedback you got?
FINE: Well, look, we were always working hard. Our polling showed that 50 percent of Republicans planned to vote on Election Day. That's unique to Florida. Our voters still vote on Election Day. So as the Democrats were turning out, people freaked out. But then they showed up on Election Day.
I won by 14 points. Cook rates my district as plus-14. When Ron DeSantis ran the first time for Congress, he won by 14. So the result was completely normal. I think a lot of the concern was unneeded.
COLLINS: Well, and they were looking back at how much President Trump won the district by, in the fall, 30 points, and saying, that margin was too close for comfort for them.
But I'm glad you brought up Governor DeSantis, because he was saying that the argument -- the results in those numbers was about you, essentially.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. RON DESANTIS (R-FL): I think you have a candidate in Randy Fine, who, one, he's a squish, OK?
He repels people.
I think the Election Day turnout was really good for a special election for Republicans in the district, and I attribute that to President Trump's intervention. I think these are voters who didn't like Randy Fine, but who basically were like, You know what? We're going to take one for the team. President needs another vote up there, and so we're going to do it.
So I do -- I would not read into the underperformance that this is somehow a referendum on MAGA or Trump. I think it was a unique issue with this particular candidate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I'm going to guess you two aren't very close.
FINE: No, I think I'm -- Ronald -- Ron DeSantis is repelled by me. I think that much is shown.
But look, Ron has never forgiven me for endorsing President Trump in 2023. I was the first legislator to switch from him to President Trump. And I'm the only Jewish Republican in the Florida Legislature. It was a big deal.
But I'm not interested in trying to set petty political scores. My focus is how I run up the score for my district. He's looking in the past. I'm looking to the future. COLLINS: And he didn't endorse you, or your opponent who was also running in the other district, where it was a special election. Didn't really do a lot. He was actually pretty critical of you, as a candidate--
FINE: Yes.
COLLINS: --when it was the crescendo of Republican panic over your race.
What does that say to you about Governor DeSantis' view of keeping Republicans in the House and keeping that majority?
FINE: Well, look, it was disappointing. I think he should have, however he feels about me, he should have said, What matters is the team. And look, had he beaten President Trump, I'd have been all-in for him, despite our real personal issues. It was disappointing.
But look, it's his right to do that. I don't think it will be remembered well. But now we move forward, and we figure out how to improve the country.
COLLINS: Well, you're ready for Washington, at least.
FINE: Let's see.
COLLINS: Congressman Randy Fine, great to have you.
FINE: Thank you.
COLLINS: Thanks for your first interview, doing it here.
Also, stay tuned, because this Sunday, here on CNN, there's a new episode of the "United States of Scandal with Jake Tapper," where he follows the story of a fake German heiress.
Anna Delvey was able to convince New York's elite of her fictitious backstory. In a few years, she used her status to con banks, hotels, businesses, even her friends. It's an episode that will take you through the web of lies and the deception that she left in her wake.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It says on her reservation that she is a friend of Aby Rosen, so she avoids putting down a credit card, she's going to pay by a wire transfer.
It wasn't a lie. She was in negotiations to purchase a building at 281 Park Avenue, which is owned by a Aby Rosen.
JAKE TAPPER, HOST, "UNITED STATES OF SCANDAL," CNN ANCHOR & CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Despite being as broke as your average 20-something in New York, Anna was negotiating a lease for a $50 million headquarters for her Arts Foundation.
Anna had already charmed the beautiful people of New York, and now, armed with a few Photoshop documents and unshakable confidence, she'd get an investment bank to foot the bill.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
[21:00:00]
COLLINS: That new episode of the "United States of Scandal with Jake Tapper" will air this Sunday, 09:00 p.m. Eastern, only here on CNN.
Thank you all so much for joining us tonight.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" is up next.
