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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Trump Says Tariff "Situation" Will Help GOP In Midterms: Will "Be Legendary... In A Positive Way"; White House On Musk-Navarro Feud: "Boys Will Be Boys"; Acting IRS Chief Resigning After Agency Secures Data-Sharing Deal With Immigration Authorities. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired April 08, 2025 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Colossal Biosciences is calling them the, quote, World's first successfully de-extincted animal. The three wolves are named Romulus, Remus, and Khaleesi, the latter a reference to the HBO series, "Game of Thrones." Technically, they're hybrids, but.
A quick programming note. With President Trump's tariffs and new policies reshaping the country, and Democrats searching for a path forward, Independent senator, Bernie Sanders, joins me for Town Hall, tomorrow night, 09:00 p.m. Eastern, right here on CNN.
That's it for me. The news continues. "THE SOURCE" starts now. I'll see you, tomorrow.
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Straight from THE SOURCE tonight.
Will it trigger mayhem at midnight? President Trump forging ahead with a staggering 104 percent tariff on all goods from China, set to take effect less than three hours from now, as Beijing refuses to back down, and the markets slide again.
Senate Democratic Leader, Chuck Schumer, is here tonight.
Also, schoolyard insults are flying back and forth between two of Trump's top advisers, a very ugly and very public feud that the White House is chalking up to, I kid you not, Boys being boys.
And breaking right now. The third IRS leader, just since Trump took office, is out. Why she just told the Trump administration, I quit?
I'm Brianna Keilar, in for Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
Tonight, as we come on the air, at the White House, they're watching the clock, because in just under three hours, President Trump's enormous global tariffs officially take effect, and the whole world is bracing for impact.
Economists are warning of dire consequences for the American economy. But well into the evening, tonight, the President sounds like he can't wait for the clock to strike midnight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: They don't want tariffs on themselves. And it's very simple. We're making deals, and people are paying tariffs. Countries are paying tariffs. Right now, China is paying a 104 percent tariff. Think of it, 104 percent.
(CHEERING)
(APPLAUSE)
TRUMP: Now, it sounds ridiculous. But they charged us for many items, a 100 percent, a 125 percent. Many countries have. They've ripped us off left and right. But now, it's our turn to do the rippin'.
(CHEERING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: Our turn to do the rippin'. To the tune of a 104 percent cumulative tariff on China. And that means you will pay more for many of the things that you buy.
But the President is exuding confidence in his plan and in himself. In fact, he's convinced it will be a boon for Republicans in the midterms. And that's not all.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: But we're going to win the midterm elections, and we're going to have a tremendous, thundering landslide. I really believe that. And it's so important that we passed a big, beautiful bill, because that's going to be. And I really think--
(APPLAUSE)
(CHEERING)
TRUMP: And I really think we're helped a lot by the tariff situation that's going on, which is a good situation, not a bad. It's great. It's going to be legendary. You watch. Legendary, in a positive way, I have to say.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: Legendary. Only time will tell.
But we did notice a shift in the President's language, earlier today. He's still all-in on implementing his tariffs, but the message is now more clearly, Let's talk.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: We're doing very well in making, I call them, tailored deals. Not off-the-rack. These are tailored, highly-tailored deals. Right now, Japan is flying here to make a deal, South Korea is flying here to make a deal, and others are flying here.
It's been amazing, what's happened.
We've had talks with many, many countries, over 70, they all want to come in. Our problem is can't see that many that fast. But we don't have to, because, as you know, the tariffs are on, and the money is pouring in at a level that we've never seen before.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: So many countries want to talk, he says. That is a noticeable shift from the White House line over the last few days.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETER NAVARRO, COUNSELOR TO THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This is not a negotiation. This is a national emergency.
HOWARD LUTNICK, COMMERCE SECRETARY: I don't think there's any chance they're going to -- that President Trump's going to back off his tariffs.
PAMELA BROWN, ANCHOR/CHIEF INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: That's cemented?
LUTNICK: He is not going to back off.
There is no postponing. They are definitely going to stay in place for days and weeks.
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The President made it clear yesterday, this is not a negotiation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: Things went from, It's not a negotiation, to Hey, let's talk about making a deal. Why? Because after days of watching trillions of dollars evaporate from the markets, including a lot of money in Americans' 401(k)s, the Trump team is being bombarded to change course.
But the White House insists there's been no change at all.
[21:05:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEAVITT: I would reject that there was an evolution. On day one, we had said that the President will always pick up the phone for other nations and other companies that call this administration. The President always has a listening ear. And it's a non-negotiable fact that America has faced a national security and economic crisis for many decades. And President Trump is just the first to address this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: So what happens after the clock strikes midnight? Well, markets have already opened in Asia, and as we speak, they're slumping yet again, already down 3 percent in Japan.
My source is the leading Democrat in the Senate, Chuck Schumer.
Leader, thank you so much for being with us.
And as of today, there are seven Republicans--
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): Good to be here.
KEILAR: Great to have you.
There are seven Republicans that have joined Democrats in this effort to rein in President Trump's tariff power. You have Republican senator, Rand Paul, in another effort that you are a part of, to roll back the tariff -- tariffs. And it's notable bipartisan support. But what's the endgame here?
SCHUMER: Well, the end game is to roll these tariffs back. They are the Trump tariff tax. It will cost the average American family, over $4,000 a year. American families will pay more for food and for pharmaceuticals. They'll pay more for cars, and gasoline, and clothing, everything. So they're a disaster. It's one of the largest tax increases on the American people for a long time.
And Republicans are feeling the heat from their constituents. They rarely break with President Trump. Not that they always agree him, but they're also afraid of them.
But we found four who broke with us on the last bill that Tim Kaine put forward. We hope that Senator Grassley and seven other Republicans have joined Maria Cantwell, in a bill, to prevent future tariffs. And the bill that Senator Wyden and I introduced this -- this today, has bipartisan support as well. The Republicans are feeling the heat. They're fighting with each other.
Democrats, Brianna, are unified. We're unified in wanting to stop the massive, massive cuts to Medicaid, to -- we want to preserve Social Security, almost sacred in America. Trump's destroying it. We don't believe billionaires should get tax cuts.
And so, next week, you're going to see Democrats have a Medicaid Day of Action, next week, where Democrats in the House and Senate will be back in our districts, talking to our constituents how we're fighting this. We're going to have a Social Security Day of Action, next week.
And the week after will be Cost of Living Week, where the high cost of living by these tariffs we will fight tooth and nail, in Republican districts, letting their constituents know how Donald Trump has broken his promises and betrayed them, and how Republican congressmen and senators seem to be going along, unfortunately.
KEILAR: But on these tariff efforts. And you mentioned Senator Kaine's. That's dead in the water, right? It goes nowhere. These all will be dead as soon as they pass the Senate, if they pass the Senate. Speaker Johnson won't take them up in the House. The President is clear he'll veto them. So, what then? SCHUMER: Well, first, Kaine's bill did pass the Senate, and it goes to the House. But public sentiment is everything. And the Republicans are just reeling--
KEILAR: But the Speaker is not expected to take it up, just to be clear.
SCHUMER: Well, let's see. If his members come back from this, after we have these Days of Action, and this Week of Action, and tell the Speaker that, This is intolerable? Maybe he will change.
If not, the American people are going to know how Trump betrayed them, and they are going to tell their representatives, and their senators, Stop embracing Trump. Not only on this, but on tax cuts for the rich, on slamming Medicaid, and even touching something as sacred as Social Security.
We're fighting them on every front. They're losing ground. Look what happened in Wisconsin, where they lost the election. Look what happened in Louisiana, where five ballot -- four ballot initiatives put forward by the conservative Republican governor were defeated, in a state like Louisiana. They are losing ground.
They are losing ground, and we are continuing to fight. And if we keep fighting every day, in every way, I believe that Republicans will soon believe it will be poison, to embrace Trump's tariffs, to embrace his cuts to Medicaid, to embrace his destroying Social Security.
KEILAR: To be clear, there is a bipartisan effort for a resolution in the House. So, we'll be seeing where that is headed.
SCHUMER: Right.
KEILAR: You've been hearing administration officials, lots of emphasis today on deal-making. If President Trump does strike deals, here in the near-term, is there a chance, actually, that the U.S. could come out of this in a better place, on trade?
SCHUMER: No. Damage -- immense damage has already been done. It's been done in the financial markets. The average American has lost close to a $100,000 in their retirement savings. Between cutting Social Security, and having the market react so negatively to the tariffs, average Americans are being hurt.
And there's another point here, Brianna. Chaos. He says, one thing one day, one thing another day. Oh, yes, they'll do this. Keep people in the administration contradicting each other. Elon Musk calls the head tariff guy in the administration, a moron. And so, the chaos.
[21:10:00]
Businesses like certainty. Businesses need to plan. Consumers need to plan. Consumer confidence is at its lowest point in decades. And businesspeople are already counting on a recession and cutting back. That means fewer jobs. That means fewer pay raises. That means goods being more expensive. And so, the damage is already being done. KEILAR: Republicans insist they're not cutting entitlements. But I hear your point. Hard to see how they make the cuts they're talking about without touching some of those things.
SCHUMER: And look at -- that, you know, just one thing, Brianna. I'm sorry. They say they're cutting -- they're not -- attacking Social Security. They turned off all e-mails to Social Security offices. How can people communicate, get their information, see if their checks are there?
And furthermore, they're closing offices. They've closed two in New York State, in Elmira, a Republican community, that's going crazy about that, and in White Plains, where over 200,000 people visit a year.
So, the American people -- Trump sold them a bill of goods, when he was running. They're very quickly getting wise to him, and we're seeing that in how the American people are reacting to Trump. I think a lot of them are feeling that Trump is betraying them.
KEILAR: On the tariff issue. You've been in the Senate for more than a quarter century.
SCHUMER: Yes.
KEILAR: And in that time, Congress has been really willing to delegate tariff power to the President. Should Democrats have reclaimed that power, when they had last, the majority? You saw what Trump did in his first term with tariffs.
SCHUMER: Well, yes, but we were able to beat back a lot of what Trump did on tariffs. And nothing is extensive, as this is. Over a 180 countries affected. Hey, this has been so carelessly done that they're even taxing -- they're putting tariffs on penguins. There are two islands near Australia, called the Heard Island--
KEILAR: But his tariffs -- I hear what you're -- but Senator, I hear what you're saying.
SCHUMER: So, Congress has a--
KEILAR: The tariffs are extraordinary now compared to what they were in his first term. But what he did in his first term was also pretty extraordinary.
SCHUMER: But Brianna -- listen.
KEILAR: Should Democrats have protected against this?
SCHUMER: Congress has always had the power to deal with tariffs, and we've always had these fights, in the past, on some of the tariff issues as well.
But now that Congress -- that Trump is going so overboard, Congress can, has every legal authority to take those powers back, and that's what we aim to do. And we hope our colleagues, in the Republican Party, knowing how bad this is, instead of just trembling in their boots because they're afraid of Trump, join with us and side with the American people.
KEILAR: Senator Cory Booker, your colleague who broke the record for longest Senate floor speech last week.
SCHUMER: Yes.
KEILAR: He was on "The View," yesterday. He was asked on the show podcast, if he should replace you. Here's the moment of that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SUNNY HOSTIN, AMERICAN LAWYER, AUTHOR, AND TELEVISION HOST: Do you think that you should be the new Minority Leader?
SEN. CORY BOOKER (D-NJ): No. Definitely not.
HOSTIN: Really?
BOOKER: I don't want that job.
HOSTIN: Why?
BOOKER: Look, I--
HOSTIN: Because you brought so many people together.
BOOKER: I appreciate it. And Chuck has been doing a -- in the last election, remember, we won Senate races.
HOSTIN: Yes.
BOOKER: Something that often is not done.
I look at Chuck as somebody who has a record of success, and he has the caucus support. There's just no way. He is a firm hold on the 47 of us. But that doesn't take away from my role in--
HOSTIN: Right.
BOOKER: --to be a leader, to be a leader in the Senate, but more importantly, is to try to be -- to offer leadership in our -- in our country, in our community.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCHUMER: And he's done a great job at that. I love Cory. I helped him when he was preparing for his speech. We have so much talent in our Democratic caucus.
KEILAR: But let me -- but I want to ask you a question.
SCHUMER: I'm sort of like an altruistic--
KEILAR: I want to ask you a question, Senator. SCHUMER: Yes. Sure, go ahead.
KEILAR: Because I saw you nodding. I know you're happy with what he said. He's clearly Team Chuck here.
SCHUMER: I sure am.
KEILAR: But there are a lot of Democratic voters who are not pleased with you. You're aware of this. They have been very vocal since you supported funding the government.
SCHUMER: Look -- yes.
KEILAR: And I do want to ask you though, as you speak to them, why do you say that you are the man for the moment, when they seem to have an impression that they would like someone else--
SCHUMER: Look--
KEILAR: --who they think has more fire in the belly from how they see things?
SCHUMER: Look, I have the full support of my caucus, and we are all, and I think Democrats -- look at the demonstrations this week, all aimed at Trump and what he's doing.
Democrats are united. We know who our problem is. Our problem is Donald Trump. We are moving forward. We are totally united. I have the full support of my caucus. We all are working together, the House and Senate. Hakeem Jeffries and I met again today, with our leaderships, to discuss how to move forward.
[21:15:00]
And we are looking forward, because we know the danger of Trump. And I believe that we're going to show the American people, as we're doing already, or was -- beginning to do already, how bad he is, and they will -- they will not embrace people who embrace Trump. So, I'm feeling very good about the future, in terms of how Democrats are united and having some real success.
KEILAR: United, and with some Republicans. We are watching it. Though, we'll see where it does go.
Senate Minority Leader, Chuck Schumer, thanks so much for being with us.
SCHUMER: Thanks, Brianna. Nice to talk to you.
KEILAR: And now I want to bring in my White House insiders to talk more about this.
And I wonder here, Dasha, just a few hours out from these tariffs taking hold. You hear Chuck Schumer there. He's emphasizing these Republicans joining them. That's going to go nowhere, legislatively. But what is the vibe like in the White House? What's the President thinking? Is he swayed by any of this?
DASHA BURNS, WHITE HOUSE BUREAU CHIEF, POLITICO: Everything that I'm hearing from inside the White House, the answer is no.
He is single-track mind right now. I heard the word, brilliant (ph), used for the mood in the White House from one very close ally, telling me that the backbone on this issue is the strongest that they have ever seen from both Trump and those around him.
There is something about tariffs. I mean, this is something he's been talking about for about 40 years, at this point. He is not a super ideological guy. You've seen him wish-wash on so many different issues. This is one where he is extremely passionate.
And right now, there are no more guardrails. He's removed them. There's no reelection to keep him in check. And in term one, when there was so much reporting about how much the stock market sort of kept him in check, he doesn't care, right now. He sees this as the issue of the moment. And right now, all those around him are on board.
KEILAR: His wishes are coming true. But he's hearing from the Hill, people sounding the alarm, in his own party, people who normally support him, Jeff. Do you think that as that maybe grows and persists, it could sway him?
JEFF MASON, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, REUTERS: I don't disagree with Dasha about how steadfast he is. I do perhaps disagree slightly about the impact that those Republican votes are having on him, and others in the White House. I don't think that he's going to change his tune.
But they did change their messaging, and that actually had a bit of a policy implication too, which was played at the beginning of the show, in terms of being willing to negotiate. I think that is a result of some of the pressure.
BURNS: Well and--
MASON: And the pressure from Republicans, politically, is worth a lot more than any pressure from the Democrats.
BURNS: Well, my colleague, Megan Messerly, had a great report -- scoop, this morning, that Scott Bessent was the one that was pushing Trump to change -- not to change policy, to be clear, because no one wants to tell him to do something different, but to change the messaging from, This is non-negotiable, to, No, we're here to cut deals.
KEILAR: What do you think about the single-mindedness, gentlemen, that you're hearing, coming from the President, even as they're talking about talking more? What do you think?
ALEX ISENSTADT, NATIONAL POLITICAL REPORTER, POLITICO, SENIOR POLITICS REPORTER, AXIOS, AUTHOR, "REVENGE": This is a totally different White House than Trump 1.0, right?
KEILAR: Yes. ISENSTADT: Trump 1.0 had -- you had Peter Navarro in there, and you had other America-First people, like Steve Bannon. But you also had counterweights, people like Gary Cohn, Jared Kushner, people who did not like tariffs, who tried to reel Peter Navarro back in.
This White House, completely different. This is a White House that is less about different warring power centers than about facilitating what Trump wants. And so, Peter Navarro, in this -- in this situation, has a tremendous amount of power, in terms of helping to push forward Trump, on tariffs, which is something that he's wanted for a very long time.
KEILAR: Yes. It's alarming.
NICK TIMIRAOS, CHIEF ECONOMICS CORRESPONDENT, THE WALL STREET JOURNAL: Yes.
KEILAR: Certainly to Wall Street and Main Street.
TIMIRAOS: Well, you talk about what Trump wants. What you see, right now, in the stock market, and what you see, right now, in the bond market is confusion over what the President wants. He has not been able to decide, frankly, whether he wants these tariffs to stay, and we're going to raise the revenue, and you're going to have to invest in factories here in the United States.
Those are things that take years. I mean, you're going to put a multi- billion dollar outlay that's going to take years. So you want to know that these tariffs are going to be there permanently. Or are we going to cut deals? And so, you're going to have the tariffs go away after a while, and you're not going to invest in those factories.
And so, what we see on Wall Street, right now, what we see in the stock market, is bewilderment, frankly, over what exactly is the President going to decide that he wants to do today?
KEILAR: Yes, how do you plan on quicksand, which is kind of how it feels right now.
All right, everyone, if you could stick around, we have much more to discuss, on this Trump tariff drama, including the President's new claim, tonight, about how far some countries are going to make deals.
[21:20:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KEILAR: Despite the uncertainty and concern that now stretches across the globe, due to Trump's trade war, tonight, the President insisted it's all going according to plan.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I know what the hell I'm doing. I know what I'm doing.
These countries are calling us up, kissing my ass. They are-- (LAUGHTER)
TRUMP: They are dying to make a deal. Please. Please, sir, make a deal. I'll do anything. I'll do anything, sir.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: And we're back now with our White House insiders.
OK. So Nick, if they all want to make a deal, that's a lot of countries trying to make deals that take a long time. According to the Peterson Institute for International Economics, negotiating a bilateral trade deal can take up to about two and a half years on average. And this would be a lot of those. I mean, how do you even do that?
TIMIRAOS: Yes, it takes a lot of bandwidth.
I think what, you know -- in the first term, when you saw the stock market go down, suddenly, Trump would throw something out to the markets. Oh, the deals are picking up with China, the talks are going well. Harder to do that when you have a 100-some odd countries that are looking for deals.
The other concern right now, Brianna, is it's not just the stock market selling off. In the last two days, you've seen bond yields go up. Why should we care about the bond market? That's mortgage rates. That's the cost of refinancing the government's debt.
[21:25:00]
Normally, when the stock market goes down, bond yields come down. So when bond yields are going up, that's a sign that something's going wrong, right now, in the market. It's a concern on Wall Street. It's a sign that maybe the U.S. doesn't have its act together right here. And that's something that's a little bit more worrisome.
KEILAR: Is he impervious to that, I mean? Because you have small businessowners saying they're going to have to, at least in the near- term, shutter their businesses because of this.
MASON: I think -- I mean, the first thing I wanted to say is, what -- which country is not calling? Which country is not saying, We want to make a deal?
KEILAR: China.
MASON: China. And that's one reason the market ended up falling more today, is because they -- the White House, they remained steadfast on that 104 percent, which the President was just talking about earlier.
China is the second biggest economy in the world, and very important trading partner for the U.S., and that's definitely -- that's not on President Trump's, at the top of the list, to try and make that right.
To your second point. Are they impervious? I don't know that they're impervious. But it's not -- they think everything is just going to work out. And in fact, some of the staunch supporters of these tariffs, within Trump's base, are saying, he is focused on the working-class, and that's the reason he's doing these tariffs in the first place.
KEILAR: That's some kind of optimism.
ISENSTADT: Yes. But here's the other thing, which is that even if you were to look for an off-ramp, it's kind of hard to find that off-ramp right now. He's in pretty deep at this point. So, let's say, even if he were to try to reverse course, find a way out of this? He couldn't do that without taking a pretty big political hit, right? And Trump is well-aware of that.
BURNS: And he's not going to.
ISENSTADT: Yes.
BURNS: I mean, by all accounts, he has dug in on this issue.
And when it comes to this debate, is it negotiations, or is this like a fundamental reshaping of the world order? They're saying, right now, their posture is they can do both.
The trouble that they're in right now, though, is they're planning to do this by, my reporting, and what they've said publicly too, is they're doing this country by country. There are a lot of countries, right now, that they put tariffs on, including those poor penguins, right? So, like, the amount of calls--
KEILAR: What did they do?
BURNS: What did they do? We're going to have to take it up with them.
But, right now, Politico has reporting that the Philippines has called, is waiting for a response. The U.K. has called, pitched a deal, is waiting for a response. So that means they now have this long queue. They're going to get some good hold music, because there are all of these countries that are trying to make deals, but that doesn't happen overnight, to your point.
KEILAR: So today, Congress actually grilled the U.S. Trade Rep. It was very interesting to hear what Jamieson Greer said. And the tariffs, of course, the formula for the tariffs came up, which was very interesting, a topic of considerable interest, especially in the case of Australia, where the U.S. has a trade surplus, but Australia still gets slapped with a tariff.
And here's how Greer defended this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. MARK WARNER (D-VA): We have a trade surplus with Australia. We have a free trade agreement. Why -- they're an incredibly important national security partner. Why were they whacked with a tariff? JAMIESON GREER, U.S. TRADE REPRESENTATIVE: Senator, despite the agreement, they ban our beef, they ban our pork, they're getting ready to impose measures on our digital companies.
WARNER: But with your metric -- with your--
GREER: It's incredible.
WARNER: With your Greek letter formula, the fact that we have a trade surplus.
GREER: We have a global tariff on every -- we're trying to address the $1.2 trillion deficit--
WARNER: I think that answer--
GREER: --that Biden left us with, sir.
WARNER: I think that answer -- sir, you're a much smarter person than that answer.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: What did you think of that moment?
TIMIRAOS: I think it speaks to the fundamental tension here. Are we doing the original reciprocal 1.0 where, If you lower your tariffs on us, we'll lower our tariffs on you? Or are we trying to eliminate all individual, bilateral trade deficits? And, oh, by the way, if you have a trade surplus with us, we're still going to put a 10 percent tariff on you. It is -- it is not coherent, what the endgame is for this.
KEILAR: All right. Dasha and Jeff, you are going to stick around for more with me later.
Nick and Alex, thank you so much to both.
ISENSTADT: Thank you.
KEILAR: We really appreciate the conversation.
And in the backdrop of all of this tariff drama, is quite an open war between two of the President's top advisers, with potty mouths, no less. Why the White House is shrugging it all off as, Boys will be boys.
[21:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KEILAR: Tonight, a very public brawl between two top Trump advisers is getting more heated, with Elon Musk, slamming senior trade adviser, Peter Navarro as a moron and dumber than a sack of bricks.
That is after Navarro claimed that Musk's company, Tesla, is not a car manufacturer, but a car assembler, putting Musk at odds with Trump's tariffs.
Musk, though, insists Tesla has the most American-made cars, and doubled down by apologizing to bricks, because his comments would be unfair to them.
And don't worry, this spat, it's got the White House's blessing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALAYNA TREENE, CNN REPORTER: Is the administration, the President, all concerned that this is maybe impacting the public's understanding of these tariffs? It might be messing with the message on it?
LEAVITT: No. Look, these are obviously two individuals who have very different views on trade and on tariffs. Boys will be boys, and we will let their public sparring continue.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: My source tonight is veteran tech journalist, Kara Swisher.
Kara, thank you so much for being with us.
KARA SWISHER, HOST, "ON WITH KARA SWISHER" & "PIVOT" PODCASTS, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Hey, Brianna.
[21:35:00]
KEILAR: And listen. Mother of boys to mother of boys.
SWISHER: Yes, three of them.
KEILAR: Like I don't--
SWISHER: Yes.
KEILAR: --I don't know. This is an acknowledgment, I guess, that they're behaving like children. But I don't know boys who actually would do this.
SWISHER: No. They're also very old boys. If you want to talk -- I think Peter Navarro's 75. Elon's 53.
It's just -- look, in this case, Elon's right. Peter Navarro is as dumb as a sack of bricks on this stuff, compared to Elon. And I think he's pushing back for a lot of reasons, one of which is that he's lost, I don't know, a couple -- a $100 billion in the last couple of days with the stock market sell-off. And I think it was just $44 billion in the last two days, and $30 billion before that, and since this has all started, quite a bit, as has other tech guys.
So they're losing a lot -- boys are losing a lot of money in this, in this ridiculous, sort of haphazard, chaotic rollout that Navarro has been running, I guess.
KEILAR: Yes. So Bloomberg's Billionaires Index, as of last glance, showed his net worth dropping roughly $31 billion. You are saying it's higher than that, and certainly--
SWISHER: Higher, yes, he just -- he just--
KEILAR: --as this proceeds.
SWISHER: He just -- since he -- had a bump when Trump got in office, because the perception--
KEILAR: That's right.
SWISHER: --that he would do very well. And now it's dropped very considerably. It's below $300 billion. It had risen to $350 billion, and now it's below that. But he's losing tons and tons of money. And over the course of the last year, and especially Tesla, and other things he's doing is -- are falling off as Wall Street does.
KEILAR: So, you've covered him for so long. Does that -- how much does that kind of thing bother him?
SWISHER: The money? I just think he doesn't want to be lectured to by someone who really is beneath him in terms of -- look, I have real problems with Elon Musk on lots and lots of issues. But his car company is really impressive, and it is -- he would know more about this than Peter Navarro would.
And I think a lot of tech people, where they have budget surplus -- when they have surpluses, we do very well with technology around the world, are probably really irritated by what's happening here. And I know Apple's been hit, Amazon's definitely been hit, Tesla's been hit, all kinds of things.
And so I think it's more about this sort of ham-handed trade policy run by a guy, as Elon, correctly, points out, made up an economist with an anagram of his name. It just is -- I can't imagine he'd enjoy talking to him. He is smart, of all things, with Elon, he's a smart man.
KEILAR: Yes, that was a very interesting Peter Navarro anecdote--
SWISHER: Yes.
KEILAR: --as it were.
SWISHER: Yes.
KEILAR: So other tech companies, as you mentioned, I mean, collectively, they've lost trillions of dollars since Trump's inauguration.
SWISHER: Yes.
KEILAR: Do you think that Big Tech has a breaking point with Trump, if the hemorrhaging continues?
SWISHER: I think they're very interested in like -- no regulation, getting off on the privacy stuff. I know Zuckerberg really wants the Justice Department investigations to go away. Google's in the middle of one, I think they'd like it to back off. But the Trump administration has not backed off. And in fact, a lot of them started during the first Trump administration, which is somewhat interesting.
So, I think the question is, what are they getting for that, standing in the front row there, and the million-dollar donations. We'll see. I mean, there's all sorts of benefits they can get from Trump, including around A.I. and contracts.
But this fall-off, it -- you know, I know musk and Bezos have gotten different contracts, but the fall-off has been dramatic. And I'm sure anybody even, no matter how rich you are, if you lose $30 billion, $40 billion in a day, it doesn't feel great, I suspect.
KEILAR: No.
SWISHER: I wouldn't know.
KEILAR: I was going to say--
SWISHER: Yes, I wouldn't know.
KEILAR: --I can only imagine. OK, so I do want to get your take--
SWISHER: I don't feel good. I have stock. I don't feel good.
KEILAR: I don't--
SWISHER: I feel bad.
KEILAR: I don't even feel good talking about that.
So the White House is insisting, and I want to get your take on this, that--
SWISHER: Yes.
KEILAR: --Apple will make iPhones here in the U.S. Let's listen to this moment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAGGIE HABERMAN, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, THE NEW YORK TIMES: Does the President endorse something that Howard Lutnick said on television, this weekend, which was that the army of millions and millions of human beings screwing in little screws to make iPhones, that that kind of thing is going to be moving to the U.S.?
Is that how the President envisions manufacturing shifting? And, if so, how long would that take roughly?
LEAVITT: The President wants to increase manufacturing jobs here in the United States of America. But he's also looking at advanced technologies. He's also looking at A.I.
HABERMAN: iPhones specifically, is that something that he thinks is the kind of technology that can move to the U.S.?
LEAVITT: Absolutely.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: So, the press secretary also mentioned--
SWISHER: And now -- and now we have -- and now -- sorry. We have a 27- year-old, who doesn't know anything about this talking about it. It's just not true. They're not going to move the iPhones back to this country. Not happening. Ever.
KEILAR: OK. Yes. So--
SWISHER: Ever.
KEILAR: OK. But let's dig into this a little bit. Because she said that Apple said it would put this $500 billion into expanding U.S. facilities over the next four years.
SWISHER: Sure.
KEILAR: So as -- I mean, you're fact-checking her there. It does seem like how the heck could this even happen?
SWISHER: Well, let me just say.
KEILAR: What do you make of this -- this promise?
[21:40:00]
SWISHER: That they have talked about this before, and in the previous Trump administration, they said they were to commit (ph) money. They do make advanced technologies, like Gorilla Glass, and things like that here. And last time they did this, they did it, it was already stuff they were doing here, which is important to have some of the manufacturing here, especially the very sophisticated stuff.
But the idea that they're going to make iPhones here, this idea that American workers, it's too -- iPhones would cost, it would just be, that you couldn't buy them, they'd be so expensive. And so, it's just, this is not what's going to be happening here.
Where we're going to excel is in the services part, in A.I. Turbines are really doing well recently, because they're making all this energy for these data centers. That's where we're going to excel.
And the idea that American workers are going to make iPhones is just, it's -- it is not happening. It's just nonsense. It's made-up. It's fictional.
KEILAR: Agree.
SWISHER: And I think Apple will invest, it will invest in A.I., and data facilities, and things like that. But they've said that under every administration. KEILAR: Yes.
SWISHER: They just -- they've announced this several different times, and so have other tech companies.
KEILAR: Yes.
SWISHER: And Trump touts it, which so did the Biden administration, so whatever. But not what she's talking about by any means.
KEILAR: Yes. Certainly a good thing to remember.
Kara, always great to speak with you, Kara Swisher. Thank you so much.
SWISHER: Thank you, Brianna. Bye.
KEILAR: And next, breaking news out of the IRS, why the acting head of the tax agency is now resigning.
[21:45:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KEILAR: Breaking tonight. The acting head of the IRS is quitting.
Sources tell CNN, Melanie Krause informed her staff today she's leaving after accepting the agency's deferred resignation offer. And this comes a day after the IRS, and Homeland Security Department, finalized an agreement to provide sensitive taxpayer data to federal immigration authorities, to help find and deport undocumented immigrants. We're told that agreement played a role in Krause's decision to leave.
My White House insiders are here, along with CNN Legal Analysts, Elie Honig, and Elliot Williams.
And Elie, there's a source telling CNN that multiple senior career IRS officials actually refused to sign this data-sharing agreement with DHS because they have grave concerns about its legality. Were they right to be concerned?
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY, SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NY: Oh, for sure. This is a complete 180 in the way the IRS operates, in the way the IRS treats its information.
When I was at the Justice Department, it was hands-off in all but the most extreme situations, when it came to getting information from the IRS. If you wanted to get information, you had to first get approval from DOJ, then you had to go to a judge. I mean, it was this extraordinary process, reserved for the rarest circumstances.
And now this new deal is, We're going to just hand it over to ICE for whatever immigration enforcement purposes you want. So it's a complete sea change, and doesn't surprise me that people are resigning because of it.
KEILAR: It is an extraordinary move.
ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Yes, and I think the red herring here is the fact that it deals with people who are unlawfully present in the country. People hear that and think illegal aliens, therefore not entitled to some of the protections under law that Americans enjoy. And that's simply not the case.
We, one, as a government, extend privacy protections to anybody whose information is in the custody of the government. But two, we believe in privacy rights as Americans, and as an American population, generally.
And so, I think -- this comes up in the gang context too, in a lot of these immigration cases, where the mere fact that folks are involved in gangs or unsavory characters, sort of leads people to think that we ought to be suspending due process protections. That's just not way -- not the way the system works. And to echo Elie's point, that just wasn't the way it was any time that I was in government.
KEILAR: But if the administration's priority is to deport criminals. And instead, this will allow them to target people who are actually paying their fair share when it comes to taxes. What message is that sending?
BURNS: Well, look, the due process piece, like, this is the issue that the administration is actually taking with so much of this. And the Supreme Court and several courts have now said, No, no, no, due process is still a thing. We need to stick to that. However, the message from the White House is focused on, Well, these are folks who shouldn't be here.
And to this person who resigned, we're seeing that across agencies. And Brianna, here's the deal. This White House actually wants that. If you are not on board with how this administration wants to do business, legal or not, part of the norms, or outside the norms, they don't want you here. So, you can either leave or you potentially will be part of those DOGE cuts at some point, so.
KEILAR: It's a self-selecting Exodus.
MASON: Yes. And I think to add to what you were saying, Dasha, like, two points.
One, I wrote a story last week about how the President is using all levers of power that he can get his hands on. Well, of course, he's going to -- he's going to tell the two departments that might be able to help with this ultimate goal of getting people out of the country, to talk. And that, whether it's challenged in the courts or not, that's fully consistent with something that he would do.
Secondly, I just think it's worth pointing out that this little-known fact, I think for a lot of us, and a lot of people, that many undocumented workers pay taxes.
KEILAR: Yes, and these ones certainly do, right? That's the whole point of this. Elliot, tonight, the Supreme Court has handed the Trump administration yet another win, and this is one on DOGE, because the justices actually blocked a lower court ruling that would require the administration to rehire 16,000 fired federal workers. This lets the administration keep them off of the payroll while all of this plays out in a lower court.
WILLIAMS: Right.
KEILAR: What's your takeaway from the ruling?
WILLIAMS: The most important thing was that last little clause, While all of this plays out in a lower court.
[21:50:00]
And yes, it's a victory. But it's a victory on process in effect. What the court found was that the individuals who did not have standing to bring the suit, they were not the people who were injured in the eyes of the law.
What we're seeing a lot of are these cases being decided on procedural matters, before the Supreme Court has the time to get to the real meat and the heart of these issues, because they're happening so quickly, and they have to act on an emergency basis.
So no, this is not the end that we have seen of this case. It's going to come back.
HONIG: It's important to understand what the Supreme Court did and did not decide with this decision. They did not make any ruling at all about the legality of the way these people were fired. All they said is, These plaintiffs, the people who brought this suit, were not the right people to bring the suit, did not have standing to use the legalese.
And I have to say, what an unforced error by the plaintiffs here. This was so eminently foreseeable. Two years ago, the Supreme Court rejected a case on almost the exact same basis. They said, Labor unions, trade associations, non-profits, you are not the actual people impacted. They threw out a case. This is what -- was the Mifepristone case.
KEILAR: That's right.
HONIG: And that's why Mifepristone remains widely available.
A district judge, a few months ago, threw out another challenge, and said, No, labor unions, trade associations, you're not the right people to sue.
So, this was a disservice done to the plaintiffs by the folks who took up the mantle and brought this case.
BURNS: And, by the way, while it's going from one court to another, bouncing back down, bouncing back up, there are dozens more actions that the administration is taking that are legally either in a gray area, or some would say, actually illegal. But they're happening so much so fast that it's already done, before the court even gets to take it up.
KEILAR: Yes, it's a good point.
Everyone, thank you so much. Really appreciate the conversation.
And ahead, a concerning update on the measles outbreak in America, several children testing positive at one daycare, with the number of cases rising across the nation.
[21:55:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KEILAR: Tonight, there are no signs that the deadly measles outbreak is slowing down. Health officials say, there are now close to 600 cases in several states. But experts say, that's a severe undercount, because many cases go unreported.
Just hours ago, in West Texas, the epicenter of this crisis, officials reported at least seven new cases at a daycare center, including children who are too young to be fully vaccinated. In response, Lubbock County health officials changed the age recommendations for the first measles vaccination to 6-months-old, instead of one year.
At least three unvaccinated people have died from this outbreak, including two elementary school-aged children. The second child died just a few days ago.
My source tonight is Katherine Wells. She is the Director of Lubbock Public Health.
Katherine, thank you for being with us.
And, as I mentioned, given so many of these cases going unreported, what do you think the real scope of this outbreak is, and just how hard is it going to be to contain it?
KATHERINE WELLS, DIRECTOR, LUBBOCK PUBLIC HEALTH: Well, we definitely have a significant number of cases of measles, out here in West Texas.
A lot of the data around measles says that for every one death, there's about a 1,000 cases. So if you use that simple math, that would say that there's been almost 2,000 cases in this area.
The State of Texas, and myself, and local health departments, are reporting about 505 cases, as of today, is the official case count.
KEILAR: OK. So this recommendation that kids get the MMR, the Measles, Mumps, Rubella vaccine at six months, instead of one year, is that something that the unvaccinated community is open to, in the area? Are you getting that sense? Is this a recommendation that may actually be adopted? Or do you think people are still going to be reticent to that? WELLS: It's going to be a mix. I think for parents that are very open to vaccine, we're going to see them move -- move and start vaccinating their children at this early age. That's going to protect those individuals.
We are also seeing more parents that have kind of been on the fence with vaccinations. Maybe they haven't seen measles, and didn't see that as a risk, and are now moving to vaccinate their children.
KEILAR: So, I want to ask you. Because RFK Jr., the HHS Secretary, who's a longtime vaccine-skeptic, as you're well-aware, attended the funeral of this second child who died in Texas.
And he put out a lengthy post. And there was a statement in there. But again, it says this, The most effective way to prevent the spread of measles is the MMR vaccine. But it's kind of buried in there.
And in a follow-up post, he also seemed to boast about meeting with healers, who treated children with other treatments, including an antibiotic that treats bacterial infections.
What does that kind of messaging do, to your public health efforts?
WELLS: I think it's key that every level of government, from federal level, state, down to those who are answering the phone at my health department, are very strong about the importance of the vaccination. The measles -- the MMR vaccine that protects us against measles is the way to stop from getting measles.
The other things that we talk about are treatments for those who have been exposed, or those who already have the virus. But the key here is preventing new infections.
[22:00:00]
KEILAR: And just real quick, Katherine. How long do you think this is going to continue? Just very quickly. We have only a few seconds.
WELLS: Yes. Yes, I mean, this is growing daily, and I don't have a good estimate for that. But I know we're in this for the long haul. At least multiple ones.
KEILAR: All right. Katherine Wells, thank you so much. We appreciate it.
And thank you for joining us.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" is up next.
