Return to Transcripts main page
The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Trump Says U.S. In A "Good Position" As Trade War Escalates; Trump Suggests He Would Bring Back Mistakenly Deported Man After Supreme Court Ordered It; Report: Social Security Ditches DOGE Plan To Cut Phone Hotline After Backlash, Chaos. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired April 11, 2025 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): He says, even I could be a target.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm not sure yet if you are or are not on the Deep State target list, because I haven't consumed all of the information that you've put forth, to determine what your status should be.
O'SULLIVAN (on camera): But we've been hanging out over the last--
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As we ruin you.
O'SULLIVAN (on camera): As you what?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just like you ruined us. An eye for an eye. Look up Leviticus, as a Christian man.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: Wow.
Don't miss the new episode of "THE WHOLE STORY," "MisinfoNation: Extreme America," this Sunday, at 08:00 p.m., here on CNN.
That's it for us. The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Straight from THE SOURCE tonight.
China retaliates with major new tariffs on U.S. products, as the world's two biggest economies wait to see who blinks first. With investors rattled, and Americans losing faith in the economy, the White House tells the country to, quote, Trust in President Trump.
Plus, the President says he took a cognitive test during his physical exam today, and that he got every answer right. What else he just told my White House insiders on Air Force One, moments ago.
And as Luigi Mangione's lawyers move to take the death penalty off the table, tonight we have an inside look at his supporters cheering on an accused killer.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
Tonight, as China strikes back, and President Trump is plotting his next move, we're seeing and hearing dire new warnings about the consequences of the world's two biggest superpowers, and the two biggest economies, being engaged in all-out trade war.
The tariffs that the U.S. and China are now using to pummel each other, back and forth, come as Wall Street is sounding the alarm today. Economists say that this game of chicken, between President Trump and Chinese President Xi Jinping, could drag the global economy into a downward spiral, and that pain could reach far and wide, and almost no one will be spared.
With that weighing on the minds of so many Americans tonight, the President has left the White House, to spend the weekend, working, at his Mar-a-Lago Club in Florida, as both he and his team are publicly projecting confidence, as he did on Air Force One tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Whatever it is it is, I think we're in a very good position. We're doing well. We have a lot of things happening. New companies are coming on board because of the tariffs, and because of the November 5th election.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: But given no new trade deals have been announced, and there are real questions about what's happening with the conversations between the White House and China, my colleague, Jeff Zeleny, asked the press secretary, earlier today, about why the White House feels so confident.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Why is American consumer confidence so low?
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Look, I think there's a great optimism in this economy, great optimism for the American people, a lot of reason for people to feel optimistic.
MARY BRUCE, CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, ABC NEWS: Is he waiting for China to make the first move here?
LEAVITT: I'm not going to comment on communications that are happening or may not be happening.
BRUCE: Why is he optimistic that China's going to make a deal, or wants to make a deal? If they're not talking--
LEAVITT: He--
BRUCE: --where is that optimism coming from? LEAVITT: He's optimistic.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: That's the message from the White House.
But the message from China, at least so far, has been, essentially, Don't hold your breath. Fresh off retaliating with those 125 percent tariffs on American goods, the Chinese government called the President's policies, quote, A joke.
Now, for American consumers, tonight, there is certainly nothing to laugh about. We're seeing consumer sentiment dropping a 11 percent, making Americans' confidence in the economy now lower than any time during the Great Recession.
Then there are the ominous warnings that we're hearing from U.S. business titans, people like the BlackRock CEO, Larry Fink, who says he conveyed his thoughts to the White House.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LARRY FINK, CEO, BLACKROCK: I think we're very close, if not in a recession now.
This is not a pandemic. This is not a financial crisis. This is something that we have created.
United States, post-World War II, was a global stabilizer. We are the global destabilizer.
In the short run, I'm petrified at some of these issues.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Petrified.
The President, however, according to what a senior White House adviser told my colleague, Jeff Zeleny, today, said, quote, He just loves this... Talking deals with the most powerful people in the world when he's got all the cards and leverage is like air for him. That's the view of the White House.
My lead sources tonight have both had the President's ear when it comes to China. Just different presidents, to be clear.
Gene Sperling has worked under Presidents Clinton, Obama and Biden.
And Stephen Moore was a senior economic adviser for Trump's presidential campaigns.
And it's great to have you both here tonight.
Stephen Moore, let me start with you.
GENE SPERLING, FORMER BIDEN ECONOMIC ADVISER, FORMER DIRECTOR, NATIONAL ECONOMIC COUNCIL: Thank you.
COLLINS: Because, we are kind of likening this to a game of chicken. Maybe there's a better way to kind of lay out what's happening here with this, this view between China and the United States, the world's two biggest economies.
Our reporting shows so far that Beijing is not engaging in a leader- level phone call that the White House would like to have. What does that say to you about the standoff and how long it could last?
[21:05:00]
STEPHEN MOORE, FORMER TRUMP ECONOMIC ADVISER, DISTINGUISHED FELLOW, THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION: Well, I think the one thing that all Americans are unified at -- and we're a pretty polarized country right now.
COLLINS: Stephen, I think we're having a bit of trouble hearing you. I'm not sure if you're -- you're--
MOORE: But I think one thing that almost--
COLLINS: Go ahead, Stephen.
MOORE: Can you hear me better now? Can you hear me better now?
COLLINS: Yes, yes. Go ahead. Go ahead. Thank you so much.
MOORE: So what I was going to say, what I was starting to say, is that I think the one thing that unifies all Americans, regardless if they're liberal or conservative, Democrat or Republican, is that China is sort of the new evil empire.
They lie. They cheat. They steal. They don't play by the rules. They have tariffs that are three to four times higher than the tariffs we impose on them. And they're building up their military and in a very aggressive and frightening way. So, we're not the one who's destabilizing the world economy. China is.
And we need to unite as a country, and I think we have to unite as a world, and isolate China as the bad actor. And I think that's Trump strategy. He's talked about that for eight years now.
And there's no way that China can win a tit-for-tat trade war, because if they can't trade with the United States, they're going to go into a Great Depression. And Trump is using that leverage, to get better behavior out of China, because we cannot continue on the course that we're on, in my opinion.
COLLINS: And Gene Sperling, when you hear that, in that argument, what is -- I mean, obviously China, this has been something that every U.S. President has had to deal with. President Trump's argument is that he is finally dealing with it when others should have -- should have dealt with this sooner. What is your view of what's playing out right now? SPERLING: Well, Kaitlan, as important, and it is incredibly important, this immediate challenge with China, this game of chicken with China, maybe even mutually assured destruction, economically, with China, is extremely important.
But I don't think one can look at this in isolation and just say, what's happening, the last few months, is just the newest round of the U.S.-China challenge. Because I agree with Steve that there is lots that China does wrong, that's unfair to us, and that we should combat.
What is making our -- what is putting the global economy at risk is the fact that not that you're taking an economic policy that I favor versus Steve, or Steve favors versus myself, but that you are seeing a degree of recklessness and amateur hour, from the White House, completely on trade, that has shaken global economic confidence, from the top investors to typical consumers.
And you are shaking, in doing so, you are getting rid of so many of those benefits we have had, since Alexander Hamilton, of being the safe haven in the storm, the place people want to invest, the place people want to trust, maybe the place people want to coordinate with to attack China. And now, what we see is we see a loss of confidence in the global economy, and as you said, even among consumers.
Let's not pass over the fact that we have now seen the S&P go down 12 percent since Trump's first trade speech, and at the same time, and we've almost never seen this before in our country, people losing so much faith in us, that they're not even investing in our bonds, and yields are going up. That is a terrible sign.
And at the same time, at the consumer level, I want to emphasize, you heard Larry Fink say, nothing happened. We are not dealing with a war, a pandemic, a financial crisis. Just based on the President's reckless fiscal policies, I mean trade policies, we have seen a drop in consumer confidence, the second worst since 1951.
And just last thing I'll say is consumer expectations--
COLLINS: Well, and--
SPERLING: --of inflation have gone from 2.9 percent to 6.7 percent, just based on reckless policy. Nothing else.
COLLINS: Well, and we're hearing from Wall Street as well. I mean, Larry Fink was saying that today. We heard from JPMorgan's Jamie Dimon as well.
And Steve, on that point. President Trump was just on Air Force One with reporters, and he was being asked about what's happening with the bond market, confidence in that, to Gene's point.
I want you to listen to what President Trump just told reporters.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I think the bond market is going good. It had its little moments, but I solved that problem very quickly. I'm very good at that stuff, and I solved it very quickly. I didn't know I solved it that well, we had the biggest day in history.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I don't know if you could hear him, Stephen Moore. But he was saying, The bond market's had a little bit of a problem, but he solved it very quickly.
Stephen Moore. We're still working on his connection, having a bit of an issue. If you can hear me.
[21:10:00]
He said he solved it very quickly. But I think, some people would look at that and say, But he also caused it very quickly.
MOORE: Right. Solve -- look, I respect Gene very, very much. He's a great economist. And I think he and I both agree that in the best of all worlds, we would have free trade.
But you know what? We don't have free trade right now because other countries really do -- we have the lowest tariffs in the world, and these other countries really have not played by the rules.
Voice of MOORE: They -- we don't have a level playing field. And what I would say to you and your listener -- your viewers, and to Gene, I think Americans are a little bit fed up with the fact that the rest of the world takes advantage of the United States and they -- in, I don't (inaudible) Gene, about what Trump is saying.
He's saying, Look, we will lower our tariffs, if you lower your tariffs. And this whole idea of a reciprocal trade agreement, I think, is something that most Americans would generally agree with.
So, I don't always agree with Trump on tariffs. But I do think, at the end of the day, if he can pull this off? And look, he's a great negotiator. I think, at the end of the day, he may well win. We will have freer and fair trade, Gene, and that would make everybody better off.
COLLINS: Yes, and obviously we've seen some countries remove those tariffs and still not get that zero percent. Obviously, we'll see what plays out here.
Stephen Moore. Gene Sperling. Great to have you both. We'll have you back for this discussion. Thank you for being here.
We also have our White House insiders, here tonight.
And I want to bring in Jeff Mason.
Because Jeff, you were just on Air Force One with President Trump, as you were flying down to South Florida. He talked about his relationship with President Xi. And just the backstory here is that the White House is not getting the engagement from China that they want, not at the high level that they are seeking, and they want them to make the first move here, based on our reporting.
This is what President Trump had to say about his relationship with the Chinese leader.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I've always gotten along well with President Xi. We had a good relationship, very good. And I think something positive is going to come out of it.
JEFF MASON, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, REUTERS: Are you done with that level? Their last response... (inaudible).
TRUMP: We're going to see what happens. I mean, look, China is a very big, great country. He's a very good leader and very smart leader.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Jeff, what else stood out to you from what the President said?
MASON: Well, I think that was a good moment to play, Kaitlan, because it underscores the complicated relationship that the President has with China, generally.
I mean, I think, as you saw in his quote there, and what he said earlier this week as well, is that he actually really admires and likes President Xi, and considers him a friend. And yet, he's putting these enormous tariffs on China, and China has retaliated.
So, I think in the same way that he loves tariffs, I think he actually really likes the leader of China, but is disappointed that they're not playing the game the way that President Trump was hoping to.
As far as other things that stood out, I asked him about the Maryland man, who was wrongly taken to the El Salvador prison. And he said that if the Supreme Court says that he needs to come back, that his administration would bring him back. So I thought that was significant.
Also, his chat about the markets this week, and that impact, was interesting as well.
COLLINS: Yes, certainly on the bond markets.
And obviously, the President was on the phone, this morning, the White House said, talking with the leaders from the other nations who're trying to make sure those 90-day tariffs that are -- or those tariffs that have been paused for 90 days, the reciprocal tariffs, aren't put back in place.
He was actually late to get his annual physical, a little bit late, according to the schedule, Dasha Burns. But that's where he spent the afternoon, getting that annual physical, at Walter Reed. And on Air Force One tonight, the President said, as part of that he took a cognitive test.
Here's what else he told Jeff and company.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I took -- I wanted to be a little different than Biden. I took a cognitive test. And I don't know what to tell you other than I got every answer right.
REPORTER: Can you tell us about the cognitive test? Is that man, woman, person, camera, TV?
TRUMP: It's a -- I think it's a pretty well-known test. Whatever it is, I got every one, I got it all right. As I've done about four times before. You know, I've taken -- I've taken the cognitive test, I think, four times, and I've gotten nothing wrong.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I think everyone remembers the first term, when Trump was saying, he took, where you have to recite, woman, person, man, camera, TV, I think it was. That's just my memory.
DASHA BURNS, WHITE HOUSE BUREAU CHIEF, POLITICO: It is.
COLLINS: I might have failed that answer.
But Dasha, what are you hearing from the White House about how public they're going to be with what the results of this are, what they found from this exam?
BURNS: I mean, they've been claiming since the beginning that (ph) they are the most transparent administration in history. They are saying, right now, that they are going to be transparent about this.
[21:15:00]
I mean, look, this is a classic Trumpian moment that we saw on the airplane here. And it's telling that with everything else going on in the subject of the lead of the show tonight, this is still something that he is focused on.
And it was interesting to hear the quote that Jeff Zeleny got from the White House today, about how much Trump is loving this moment. That drives (ph) so much with what I've been hearing throughout this week, even as we saw the cratering of the stock market, the cratering of the bond market. His advisers got very concerned, especially when we saw the bond market piece.
But Trump has been on cloud nine. He is living his best life. He's doing this exactly the way that he has planned, though those around him are growing increasingly concerned about what all of this moment means for him and this administration. COLLINS: Yes.
And Seung Min Kim, let me bring you in.
Because, on top of all of this, as we're watching what's happening here and following that closely. Also today, something was revealed at the White House where, earlier this week, our eagle-eyed CNN team had spotted a painting being brought into the White House. Now we see where it is. It's the iconic scene, of course, from the attempted assassination of President Trump, in Butler, Pennsylvania.
You can see there, that is earlier this week, we saw it bringing -- being brought into the White House. Now we know it's hanging, actually where the portrait of President Obama used to be at the White House, right there when you walk into the East Wing. It is there on the left. That is now where this portrait is, that the White House revealed today.
The Obama portrait, I should note, has just been moved across the hall, and they've done some reshuffling with the other past presidential portraits.
But Seung Min Kim, what do you make of the White House's decision to put this portrait in such a prominent place?
SEUNG MIN KIM, WHITE HOUSE REPORTER, ASSOCIATED PRESS: They love that image. I mean, this is an image that they are so proud of. It's such an iconic image of the President's campaign, last summer. I will say, it was taken by some of the bravest news photographers that you and I all know, who work in this business, who were able to capture those images.
And this is -- they see this as kind of the embodiment of what Trump is, that this is -- this is who -- this is Trump. He's willing to even go as far as to take a bullet, to fight for the American people. So this is, again, an image that -- this is an image that they've adored. It is on the cover of his commemorative book. So, you're going to be seeing that image for a long time.
COLLINS: Yes, it is an incredible image, obviously. And the White House has certainly placed it in a very prominent position.
Thanks everyone for being here on everything happening inside the White House.
Up next here for us. The Supreme Court says that the White House has to facilitate the man who was mistakenly deported by the administration to El Salvador. How they're responding, though, which is not exactly in line with what the judge was expecting inside court today.
[21:20:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Moments ago, President Trump suggested he would bring back a man who his administration admitted was mistakenly deported to El Salvador.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MASON: How does the administration, how do you plan to respond to the Supreme Court ruling, and the other courts, about the gentleman who is from Maryland, who was put in the El Salvador prison?
TRUMP: Is that the one that was not Tren de Aragua but he was MS-13?
MASON: Just the one that they've said needs to come back.
TRUMP: No, but was he MS-13? Because I only know about that, I mean. I don't know which one. But if the Supreme Court said, Bring somebody back, I would do that. I respect the Supreme Court.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: The President saying he respects what the Supreme Court has decided here. This is what they ruled yesterday, that Trump officials are required to, quote, Facilitate Kilmar Abrego Garcia's release from custody in El Salvador, and his return to the United States.
Earlier today, a lower court judge tried to nail down the whereabouts of this Maryland father, whose last-known location was at this notorian (ph) mega prison in El Salvador.
Pressing for any kind of information, the judge asked the lawyers for the Trump administration, quote, "I am asking a very simple question: Where is he?"
The Justice Department attorney responded, quote, "I do not have that information provided to me."
Without the answers, the judge has ordered the Justice Department to provide future daily updates about their efforts to bring him back.
My legal sources tonight are:
The retired U.S. district court judge for the Southern District of New York, Shira Scheindlin.
And former federal prosecutor, Elie Honig.
And it's great to have you both here.
Elie, I should note, there are no charges against Abrego Garcia. Obviously, that has been at the center of this.
The President, it didn't seem totally clear that he -- which case he was referencing. Obviously, there's been a few here that we've been talking about. But if he says, I respect the Supreme Court's decision, does that mean they're going to bring him back? Because that is not really the vibe that we got from the White House briefing today.
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY, SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NY: Yes, it would be great if DOJ was acting accordingly. But that's not what happened in the courthouse today with DOJ. They send in an AUSA, like I once was, who says, basically, I don't have any of the relevant information here.
And what the administration is doing? Let me be clear about what they're doing. So the decision from the Supreme Court was you have to facilitate his return, but not effectuate it, OK?
COLLINS: Which means?
HONIG: Facilitate means, basically, you have to try to help. Effectuate means, you have to make it happen.
And so, what the administration is doing is they're manipulating that. They're saying, Well, we're sort of trying. We don't necessarily have to actually succeed in bringing him back here. But what's happening is they're slow-playing this. They send in some lawyer who does not have the relevant information.
I mean, I wonder what you would have done, Judge Scheindlin, if I had appeared in front of you, and the key point, I said, I just don't know that. You would not accept that?
SHIRA SCHEINDLIN, FORMER U.S. DISTRICT JUDGE, SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NY: I would not. And I really feel the pain of that judge.
HONIG: Yes.
[21:25:00]
SCHEINDLIN: She must be so frustrated, so frustrated with the Department of Justice, and their attorneys that would dare to walk into court, and say, I don't know. I don't have the answer. Nobody told me. What am I supposed to do?
And the last lawyer who tried to say that he couldn't get the information, well, he got fired.
HONIG: Suspended, yes.
SCHEINDLIN: He just got fired, just like that. Suspended. Fired. It's pretty close to the same thing.
HONIG: Yes.
SCHEINDLIN: So, lawyers are in a tough spot at the DOJ right now. I feel their pain too.
But I really feel the court's pain. Because the court wants this done. And this difference between facilitate and effectuate. It got sent back. It was remanded by the Supreme Court and said, The judge has to clarify, has to clarify. What does he mean -- what does she mean by effectuate? It seems so silly to me.
COLLINS: Yes, because it wasn't -- I mean, it was a nine-zero ruling from the Supreme Court.
SCHEINDLIN: Yes.
COLLINS: But the language was a little bit unclear. And so, I mean, today there were two court-imposed deadlines, Elie, for them to provide answers about what they have done.
Part of the filing from the Justice Department, they argued, Foreign affairs cannot operate on judicial timelines, in part because it involves sensitive country-specific considerations wholly inappropriate for judicial review.
OK, take that, though. But also, the President of El Salvador is coming to Washington, next week--
HONIG: I mean--
COLLINS: --as was raised to the White House today.
HONIG: DOJ is intentionally making this as hard on themselves as they can. They are showing no actual motivation to get this done.
I am sure. I promise you, if DOJ, and the administration, really wanted to return this guy, they could do it like that. I mean, he's apparently in the very prison that we are essentially renting, in El Salvador, $6 million.
COLLINS: Yes, the U.S. is paying for this.
HONIG: Right. And Kristi Noem, the DHS Secretary, bragged a few weeks ago about how this prison is a great tool in our toolkit. He's right there. They probably know what cell he's in.
SCHEINDLIN: Or you hope he's right there. This is -- this is the mystery. Maybe he's not right there.
HONIG: Boy.
SCHEINDLIN: And that's a frightening thought, so.
COLLINS: Is that what this tells you that maybe they actually--
SCHEINDLIN: Well, it worries me.
COLLINS: --they don't know.
HONIG: Yes.
SCHEINDLIN: It worries me that they couldn't confirm that that's exactly where he is. Because I agree with you, if they want this guy back, they'll just say, during the meeting, Bring him back, bring him back.
HONIG: Yes.
SCHEINDLIN: I mean, this is the United States president, you know?
COLLINS: But what options does a judge have if they're slowing -- if they're dragging their feet, as Elie says, seems to be the case here?
SCHEINDLIN: We've been going over and over this. What is the power of the court, if the -- if the party doesn't obey the order? What's the power?
Is it contempt? Would they really go for a civil contempt? And who would they hold in contempt? Would they eventually hold Pam Bondi in contempt? I mean, somebody, it has to be a person. You sort of can't hold the United States in contempt. It's a person. And that person can be fined. That person can be in jail in a civil contempt. I've had that. So, it can be done.
But the judge is frustrated, and said, You're going to report to me every day at 5 o'clock.
HONIG: Yes.
SCHEINDLIN: Every day. Write it out.
This is like children playing--
HONIG: Well, and I think Judge Scheindlin's hitting on a key point here, which is a lot of this just depends on the good faith of the players, right? On DOJ doing the right thing, on DOJ listening to judges.
SCHEINDLIN: Yes.
HONIG: Because as a judge, you have a lot of power. You wear the robe. You can push hard. You can demand answers. But ultimately, DOJ has to play ball. Because, you're right, you're not going to lock up Pam Bondi.
SCHEINDLIN: And they haven't been playing ball. That's what--
HONIG: Right.
SCHEINDLIN: They've been slow walking case after case. And this one, with the admission, they have to bring this guy back--
COLLINS: Yes.
SCHEINDLIN: --if they can find him, and if he's alive, and if he's well. I have a lot of questions.
COLLINS: We'll see if the President's comments tonight change that.
Judge, great to have you. Elie, as well.
Also, as we're talking about many different cases here, the Trump administration did get a win in a different deportation case today. That's because we saw that Louisiana judge ruling, late this afternoon.
Now remember the detained Columbia University student, Mahmoud Khalil. He helped lead pro-Palestinian protests, on the Ivy League campus, last year, and has been at the center of a huge dispute with the White House. This judge ruled that he is, quote, Removable from the United States despite his status as a legal permanent resident.
My source tonight is his attorney. Marc Van Der Hout is here.
And it's great to have you here, sir.
Because there is a real question here, given this order did not say this has to be done immediately. There is time for you to appeal this decision for relief. Do you believe this is the final word?
MARC VAN DER HOUT, ATTORNEY FOR COLUMBIA STUDENT MAHMOUD KHALIL: No, we don't think this is the final word at all.
But it's a very frightening position that the administration is taking in this case. This is a statute that has been rarely used. It was put in, in 1990, and it was geared towards people like the Shah of Iran.
The statute says that someone can be deported from the United States if their presence, their statements, their beliefs or activities would be contrary to U.S. foreign policy interests. But Congress said, If they try to do it for First Amendment-protected activity, which would be statement, belief, or activity, they cannot do that unless they have a compelling government interest.
[21:30:00]
So, we were waiting, for a month, to find out what was this compelling government interest. Two days ago, we finally got the two-page letter, three-paragraphs letter, from Secretary Rubio, that said, This person should be deported. Why? He's never done anything illegal in his life. But that his views about the Middle East are, what they said, anti- Semitic.
Now, this is a problem in our country, where people--
COLLINS: But--
VAN DER HOUT: --equate criticism of Israel with anti-Semitism. That's furthest from the truth.
COLLINS: And in that leader--
VAN DER HOUT: He is a respected leader in Columbia.
COLLINS: Can I -- can I ask you--
VAN DER HOUT: Yes, go ahead.
COLLINS: --because in that letter you're holding, does that -- does that -- did it--
VAN DER HOUT: Yes.
COLLINS: Did they accuse him of any crimes or anything -- anything else? Because I know, they were trying to introduce something in court today.
VAN DER HOUT: Zero.
COLLINS: Do you know what were they trying to introduce in court today that the judge stopped them from doing?
VAN DER HOUT: Actually, they didn't stop the government for doing anything. They stopped us from challenging the Rubio determination getting behind it.
We wanted the evidence that they were relying on, to say that his presence in the United States would be contrary to U.S. foreign policy interests and a compelling need to deport someone for First Amendment- protected activity.
The immigration judge railroaded this case. We got the evidence, this letter, two days ago. 48 hours later, she came in with a prepared decision, saying, I don't have any jurisdiction to go behind the Secretary of State's determination.
Zero criminal activity by him. Zero evidence of anti-Semitism. All he was, was a person, who was leading the negotiations between Columbia University, and the protesters, to try to work out what could be worked out with their protests. And they don't like what he's doing. This is extremely frightening, Kaitlan, because this maybe about--
COLLINS: So, what happens next here, for your client, though, sir?
VAN DER HOUT: We are in district court, also at the same time. Immediately after the hearing today, the judge in New Jersey, who's the district court judge, asked us to come to court and explain what happened in court. We explained that there was no hearing whatsoever, really, no evidence presented, no ability to challenge anything.
And so, we are going to district court to say, Judge, the immigration court process is a sham. There is no ability to really challenge the evidence here, to challenge the allegations, and we need the district court to step in and say he has a constitutional right to speak his mind.
And what is important here, it's not just about Palestine or Gaza. What's the next thing this Trump administration is going to do? Are they going to say that U.S. citizens who speak out about the policy on Social Security should be kicked out of the country, should be jailed, because they disagree with the Trump administration policies? So, we're very -- we're very concerned about this.
COLLINS: Yes. But can I ask you--
VAN DER HOUT: And it's really ironic, it's -- yes.
COLLINS: Can I ask you, because given -- obviously, you're going to another judge. But given this Louisiana judge affirmed the Secretary of State's power to remove him from the country, and others that they can make this argument with, does it concern you that ultimately he will be removed from the United States? VAN DER HOUT: We certainly hope not. The process through the immigration court system, the Board of Immigration Appeals, which is the appellate body, has also said, We can't go behind these determinations. So, our remedy really is in district court to show that this is a First Amendment violation, and that's what we're hoping.
COLLINS: OK.
VAN DER HOUT: But I do want to -- I do want to point out one thing. It's totally ironic that the -- this administration is talking about the need to kick out somebody, like him, because of concerns about anti-Semitism, when they just supported the far-right party in Germany, a neo Nazi Party. They, under the past Trump administration, they were praising people in Charlottesville. It is like really a double standard, and really absurd for this administration to take this position.
COLLINS: Yes.
VAN DER HOUT: We think the district court judge will ultimately see that, and we're hopeful that that will reverse--
COLLINS: OK. All right.
VAN DER HOUT: --they'll ultimately reverse it.
COLLINS: Marc Van Der Hout, we'll see what ultimately happens here. Please keep us updated. Obviously, we've been following this very closely.
VAN DER HOUT: OK.
COLLINS: Thank you for your time tonight.
VAN DER HOUT: Happy to. Thank you, Kaitlan. Thank you, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: Up next for us here, on DOGE and Elon Musk's team. We should note, Elon Musk traveled with the President tonight. They are now backing down on a plan that we've covered here that would have made accessing Social Security benefits, some critics said, more difficult for Americans. We'll tell you what happens here, and the public outcry over this.
[21:35:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, the Trump administration's DOGE department is reportedly backing off plans to scrap the Social Security Administration's phone services, after there was major backlash from Americans, across the country, wondering what the effects of it were going to be.
The agency said that the initial plan was to effort -- was an effort to combat identity fraud that they had seen in their DOGE efforts, since President Trump took office.
But in the weeks since that announcement, people have been lining up at field offices, enduring long wait times, even disconnections, on that Social Security hotline, and they flooded and crashed, at times, the department's website over it.
[21:40:00]
The Washington Post reports tonight that lawmakers, quote, "Besieged by angry constituents... demanded that the acting commissioner end the chaos."
Now, according to this internal memo that was obtained by The Post, the plans to force people awarded retirement, disability and Medicare benefits to set up direct-deposit payments online or in person have been canceled after the agency concluded it would vet these transactions for fraud by phone.
My source tonight is Martin O'Malley, who was the former Commissioner of the Social Security Administration under President Biden.
And it's great to have you back.
Since we talked about this very effort, and you warned essentially this was going to happen, that it was going to cause a lot of confusion--
MARTIN O'MALLEY, FORMER SOCIAL SECURITY COMMISSIONER: Right.
COLLINS: --it was going to be really difficult for people who gets Social Security to be able to do this.
What do you make of DOGE, backing off this plan?
O'MALLEY: Well, I think they burned their hand on the stove of the American public.
They've been doing a lot of things, Kaitlan, for the last 45, 60, days that are designed to degrade the public service that -- and the customer service that Social Security is supposed to offer people, that have earned these benefits.
And all of them seem to have been designed to cram people into crowded field offices, to turn the public and sour the public against this agency that so many Americans depend upon. And I honestly think they're trying to wreck it, so they can rob it, and then get away with it.
But in this case, the anger from the public, to their congresspeople, was so great, whether Democrats or Republicans, that they had to back away from them.
COLLINS: Yes. And Elon Musk will say that what he wants to do is save Social Security money, so that people can actually rely on it more and get more benefits. And their argument here, just because I want you to address this, since you know it, since you oversaw this, was that people who were calling in to change beneficiary information, that they claimed, 40 percent of the calls were fraud.
I don't think the number was right. I think it was that 40 percent of the actual fraud attempts were done by the phone.
But what do you make -- can you just address how this works and what is the--
O'MALLEY: Right.
COLLINS: --best solution here?
O'MALLEY: Yes, and don't give them a break on conflating the 40 percent, and the 40 percent.
I mean, the truth is that, for the last 60 days, Elon Musk and his DOGE team, have been trying to undermine public confidence in Social Security, by saying this is -- that this agency, which has an improper payment year after year after year of less than 1 percent, is just rife with fraud.
Some of the big lies are that immigrants steal from it, millions of them, even though immigrants can't get -- illegal immigrants can't get benefits. And they also said that there was this zombie apocalypse with all sorts of dead people getting checks.
And on this one, absolute total lie and falsehood. The truth is that only one out of every 3,100 calls to Social Security is a successful fraud attempt. And Social Security forts (ph) five others for every one. As a percentage, it's not 40 percent. It's 0.0032 percent. So that's a lie, another big lie from the guy who will not even go on any reputable news station, or talk to any journalist, about the lies he continues to spew.
And in this case, fortunately, Social Security is a program that is supported by 80 percent of the American public, regardless of party.
COLLINS: Yes.
O'MALLEY: And in this case, they really burned their hand on the -- on the stove, and they had to back away.
COLLINS: But can I ask you about the other action that we're seeing with Social Security?
Because someone from the Department of Homeland Security has requested the SSA, the Social Security Administration, to provide more than 6,000 names of immigrants into its database used to track dead people, which is apparently meant to basically be able to deny these people from being able to use these numbers that they will--
O'MALLEY: Right.
COLLINS: --and ultimately it hopes -- that they will self-deport from the country, is the argument that we're hearing from the White House.
O'MALLEY: Right. Kaitlan, this is so unlawful, and so contrary, to every regulation ever adopted by Social Security since the very first one, to protect the privacy of people that are required to pay into Social Security.
[21:45:00]
So, let's unpack this a little bit. There is a Master, what they call, a Master Death File. It is required by Congress to be kept by Social Security. Banking institutions, credit agencies, all ping off of this.
So what the acting puppet commissioner of Social Security said was that they are going to terminate the financial lives of people who came into this country legally, non-citizens. People who came in here legally, were given Social Security numbers. And now, suddenly, can't get into their bank accounts. Because falsely, for the first time in the 90-year history of Social Security, the President of the United States ordered that there be false information inputted in these 6,000 records. And they're not stopping here.
And Kaitlan, it's really not about this group of people. If they can do this to people who are legally here, they can do this to anyone. Declare them dead, and terminate their financial lives--
COLLINS: Yes.
O'MALLEY: --and make it impossible for them to operate in the United States. Welcome to the early days of Pinochet.
COLLINS: Martin O'Malley, we're going to have to leave it there. Thank you so much for your time tonight.
O'MALLEY: Thank you.
COLLINS: Up next. We have an update in the CEO murder case that is underway. The attorneys for the accused killer, Luigi Mangione, are now accusing the United States government of intending to, quote, Kill him as a political stunt.
CNN's Donie O'Sullivan is getting an inside look at the other end of the spectrum, some of his biggest fans and supporters.
[21:50:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, Luigi Mangione's lawyers are asking a federal judge to block the Justice Department from seeking the death penalty against him, claiming that the government, quote, Intends to kill Mr. Mangione, as a political stunt.
Mangione, of course, is accused of killing the UnitedHealthcare CEO, Brian Thompson, in New York City.
The Attorney General, Pam Bondi, recently announced, the Justice Department was seeking the death penalty, as part of President Trump's campaign promise to resume lethal punishment in certain cases.
So far, Mangione's supporters have poured $850,000 into his legal defense fund, as dozens of supporters have appeared outside the courthouse, here in Manhattan, during recent hearings.
CNN's Donie O'Sullivan spoke with a few of them for the latest episode of "THE WHOLE STORY WITH ANDERSON COOPER."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
O'SULLIVAN (on camera): What was it like seeing Luigi?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You know, like we've all seen, like, tons of pictures of him, like, I think you could just see his more human side when you're seeing him in person, for sure.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Nadine Seiler is a long-time progressive activist.
O'SULLIVAN (on camera): We've met before. I've seen you at protests, in Washington, D.C.
NADINE SEILER, LONG-TIME PROGRESSIVE ACTIVIST: Yes. Yes.
O'SULLIVAN (on camera): Against Trump.
SEILER: Yes.
O'SULLIVAN (on camera): Against January 6th--
SEILER: Yes.
O'SULLIVAN (on camera): --all that sort of stuff.
SEILER: Yes.
O'SULLIVAN (on camera): Is accepting the violence that was committed against Brian Thompson--
SEILER: America was founded on violence.
O'SULLIVAN (on camera): But by--
SEILER: America was founded -- And Make America Great Again. To when? They came and massacred the indigenous people, millions and millions of indigenous people.
O'SULLIVAN (on camera): But by supporting the murder of a health care CEO does that -- doesn't that make your side as culpable?
SEILER: I mean, I don't hate -- I'm condemning this, the Proud Boys who he said, Stand by, whatever they stop -- once they start condemning them, then I will reassess.
O'SULLIVAN (on camera): Yes.
SEILER: But until then, no, I'm not reassessing.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: And Donie O'Sullivan joins me now.
It's kind of jarring to hear like the laugh of--
O'SULLIVAN: Yes.
COLLINS: --of like the excitement of seeing him, from--
O'SULLIVAN: Yes.
COLLINS: --from some of these fans.
But what stood out to you? How many people were there? What did this look like?
O'SULLIVAN: There was a lot of people. I mean, there's, I would say, I'm bad with crowd numbers, but definitely in the dozens and probably more in the hundreds. And it was freezing cold that day, back in -- back in February.
And look, I think this is all part of a special we have, on Sunday night, where we are looking at the rise of extremism in America.
And it is important to point out, off the top here that we're -- most the time, we're speaking about right-wing extremism in this country, and that is because that is by and -- by a massive margin where the extremist attacks have come from, right, from Charlottesville to January 6.
However, the reason why we were focusing on, on the Mangione fans here is that because, it was quite striking, as you say, to see just how many people were really celebrating this man's murder.
COLLINS: Yes, and obviously, this all comes, as in the filing we saw Mangione's attorneys, this was last month, I believe, where they shared a photo of heart-shaped notes that he had gotten from supporters, and a bag of clothing. One read, Luigi, we are rooting for you. Keep your head held high and know there are thousands of people wishing you luck.
I mean, do they -- when you talk to them and you remind them that he is charged with the murder of a father, what do they say to that?
O'SULLIVAN: Yes. And I mean, the young woman who we played the clip for -- who was at the start of the clip we played there, she explained, she said that, obviously she is a supporter of Mangione. None of these people want to rush to judgment. I mean, a lot of them are, frankly, don't think he's guilty. And of course, a court will decide that.
But these are people who actually really do care and have been affected by the health care system in this country. And we all know how very broken that system is for millions of Americans. So I think what we're seeing manifesting, outside of court, is people who have actually been really hurt, and who have earned a desperate situation, and have a rage, a sort of rightful rage, and this for them, is justice. I mean, it's a concerning thing, when you see any people cheering on violence. But that's -- that's their reason.
COLLINS: Can't wait to watch it.
Donie O'Sullivan, thank you for the great reporting.
O'SULLIVAN: Thank you.
COLLINS: Be sure to tune in. It's an all-new episode of "THE WHOLE STORY WITH ANDERSON COOPER." It airs this Sunday, 08:00 p.m. Eastern and Pacific, here on CNN.
[21:55:00]
Up next. We're going to take a look at one of the most explosive corruption scandals in American political history.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, we have a preview of this week's new episode of the "UNITED STATES OF SCANDAL WITH JAKE TAPPER." It follows the story of a notorious D.C. lobbyist, Jack Abramoff. But in the early 2000s, it was revealed that Jack was involved in conspiracy, fraud and tax evasion that shocked the country.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAKE TAPPER, HOST, "UNITED STATES OF SCANDAL," CNN ANCHOR & CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: When you look back at Jack Abramoff's world, was it just about greed for him? Was it about power? Was it about attention?
[22:00:00]
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now, do I think he is the worst lobbyist that's ever walked the earth? No. Jack could take your wallet and make you think it was OK. And I don't mean that in a bad way. He was like a chameleon. He could--
TAPPER: But that you're really not describing a chameleon. You're really describing a sociopath, though?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, yes, you could say that.
TAPPER: I mean, that's--
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sure.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: It is a must-watch. Tune into a new episode of the "UNITED STATES OF SCANDAL WITH JAKE TAPPER" that airs this Sunday, at 09:00 p.m., right here on CNN.
Thank you so much for joining us tonight.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" is up next.
