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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Trump Punts On Immigration Cases: "Speak To The Lawyers"; Police: Two Killed, Five Injured In Florida State University Shooting; Sen. Van Hollen Meets With Mistakenly Deported Man. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired April 17, 2025 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: --a potentially major advancement to treat obesity and diabetes tonight.
Drugmaker Eli Lilly says it has successfully created a pill that is as effective as those popular injectable drugs, known as GLP-1s already on the market. The drugmaker says those who took the highest dose lost an average of 16 pounds, and that side effects were similar to those of the injectable drugs.
Lilly says it plans to publish the results, later this year, and expects to apply for approval as a drug for weight loss, by the end of this year, then for type two diabetes, next year.
All right, that is all for us tonight. I will see you tomorrow at 07:00 a.m., alongside Sara Sidner and Kate Bolduan, for "CNN NEWS CENTRAL."
In the meantime, the news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Straight from THE SOURCE tonight.
Ask the attorneys, President Trump defers to the Justice Department while distancing himself from the court fight confronting his White House. His border czar, Tom Homan, is my source tonight.
Plus, can the President fire the head of the Federal Reserve? He sure seems to think he can. It's never been done before. But that doesn't mean it would stop President Trump. Why he's trashing the man that he first nominated?
And we're learning new details tonight, after two people were killed and more injured, in a mass shooting at Florida State. The shooter's connection to law enforcement.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
At the White House today, there was a noticeable shift in President Trump's answers, when he was questioned about two critical cases before the courts right now, on immigration. As his administration has been going head-to-head with judges who say there's reason to believe, that administration has violated their orders.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Yesterday, Judge Boasberg, in a case against your administration, said the Constitution does not tolerate willful disobedience of judicial order. Do you agree with that statement?
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Well you're going to have to speak to the lawyers. We have great lawyers,
REPORTER: If a court holds you in contempt, will you take steps to return Kilmar Abrego Garcia to the United States and put him in front of a judge?
TRUMP: Well, I'm not involved in it. I'm going to respond to that by saying, you'll have to speak to the lawyers, the DOJ. I've heard many things about him, and we'll have to find out what the truth is.
REPORTER: Do you believe he deserves due process here?
TRUMP: Well, I must tell you, I have to refer again to the lawyers. I'll have to do what they ask me to do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Speak to the lawyers.
Compare that to his more defiant answer, much more defiant, when I asked President Trump, just a few days ago, about this case of the mistakenly deported man.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Mr. President, you said that if the Supreme Court said someone needed to be returned, that you would abide by that. You said that on Air Force One, just a few days ago. And they said that--
TRUMP: How long do we have to answer this question from you? Why don't you just say, Isn't it wonderful that we're keeping criminals out of our country? Why can't you just say that?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: So what's changed since Monday? In short, it really seems to be the courts. Meaning, threats of investigations as the White House has been testing the balance of their power and the balance of that, and the judicial branch's power.
A pretty blistering response came out of the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals today, where a judge, who I'll note here was appointed by President Ronald Reagan, wrote in a unanimous opinion this, about the administration's response, or lack thereof, to an order mandating that they facilitate the return of Kilmar Abrego Garcia, who, as we know and has been well-established by now, was deported to El Salvador, despite an immigration judge, in 2019, expressly forbidding him from being sent to El Salvador. The Appeals court wrote, and I'm quoting now, "The government is asserting a right to stash away residents of this country in foreign prisons without the semblance of due process that is the foundation of our constitutional order. This should be shocking not only to judges, but to the intuitive sense of liberty that Americans far removed from courthouses still hold dear."
And my source tonight has spent decades working on immigration enforcement, serving as a top ICE official under President Obama, and now serving as President Trump's border czar.
Tom Homan, welcome back to the show. It's great to have you.
We heard from President Trump today, essentially telling reporters, Talk to the lawyers, when he was asked about Judge Boasberg's ruling that probable cause exists to hold officials in criminal contempt, potentially, for violating his orders.
Do you think that any of your colleagues have violated orders here?
TOM HOMAN, PRESIDENT TRUMP'S BORDER CZAR: No, I don't. I think we followed the judge's order. I think we'll let that litigate in court. You know, DOJ is fighting that in court. But I don't think we did anything wrong.
COLLINS: And so you're not worried about any of the conversations when it came to Judge Boasberg, saying, Turn the deportation flights around, and yet they continued to make their way to El Salvador?
HOMAN: Well, it's -- I think the information shows those planes were already near in international waters, as far as I know. So, I don't think we did anything wrong. According to his written order, I think we did everything by the numbers.
COLLINS: And sir, you're not ultimately worried here that anyone will be held in contempt or anything like that, when as they continue this fact-finding investigation, overall on this effort?
[21:05:00]
HOMAN: No, I'm not concerned about me. Fact-find all they want. I think the evidence's clear. I think DOJ has made a strong case, and we'll let it play out in court. I mean, as I sit here today, talking to you, I don't think anybody in the administration did anything wrong. I don't think we actually violated a court order.
COLLINS: So we have two judges here. That's Judge Boasberg's ruling that we found yesterday, that the President was asked about. The other judge here, the federal judge in Maryland, Judge Xinis, has been criticizing the government, this week, for what she says is doing, quote, Nothing to return Kilmar Abrego Garcia to the United States.
Are you personally aware of any steps that have been taken to facilitate his return to the United States?
HOMAN: Look, I think he's a citizen of El Salvador. He's in El Salvador. He's home. He's an illegal alien with a final order of removal. He's a MS-13 member, which is now classified as a terrorist. So we removed the illegal alien MS-13 member, who has a final order of removal issued by an immigration judge, to his homeland.
COLLINS: So should I read that as to say nothing has been done to bring him back to the United States? That's what it sounds like.
HOMAN: I can't speak to everybody in the administration. I can just tell you what my stance is. And I think we did the right thing. I think he's where he should be. And the order withholding that everybody keeps talking about, or withholding as you set aside because he is a -- he's a designated terrorist, with -- which order withholding is meaningless, I believe, according to the attorneys.
And look, even if we -- even if he came back, people think he's going to be released and go back to? No, he's going to be detained, and he's going to be removed, as per the order of removal, either to El Salvador, or another country. So this person has an order of removal. He's seen two different immigration judges, and he's been ordered to deport, and that's exactly what happened.
COLLINS: I'm glad you brought that up, because that withholding removal order essentially said the one place he can't go is El Salvador, where he's from. He claimed that he was concerned he could be persecuted if he was returned.
Why not simply have him return to the U.S., detain him, and then deport him to a third country? Wouldn't that be in accordance with the law?
HOMAN: I think we're in accordance with the law. I mean, I'm not an attorney, I'm not DOJ, fighting this case. But my opinion, and in the years I spent doing this job, he is now designated a terrorist. That withholding orders, it's set aside.
And we got to remember, that withholding order was issued years ago. Things have changed. El Salvador is one of the safest countries in the region because of the steps President Bukele takes. The gangs are no longer operating on the streets of Venezuela -- in El Salvador. That's why he built that prison. So, I don't think the gang danger that they once thought was there is even there anymore. So situation has changed.
It's much like Temporary Protected Status, the TPS that it's only temporary. When the conditions in the country were to change, TPS can be ended, and they can be removed to the country.
COLLINS: But why not make that argument in court? If you think that you can make the argument that he is fine to go back to El Salvador, why not -- why not just make that argument and try to terminate that order that said that the one place he couldn't go to was the one place that he was sent to?
HOMAN: Look, again, I'm not litigating this case. It's the DOJ. I think DOJ has continued to litigate the case. But I think we're in a good stance. I think we're in a good place. Again, I'm not an attorney. I can just speak to my experience as a guy who enforces immigration law. But I think that DOJ has a strong case, and I think we're standing by what we did was the correct thing to do.
COLLINS: Has the Attorney General, Pam Bondi, to your knowledge, attempted to revise that withholding removal order?
HOMAN: I have not spoken to Pam Bondi about this.
COLLINS: You mentioned the Justice Department. One thing that has been on my mind, as we've been covering this, is President Trump was in office in 2019, when an immigration judge granted this withholding removal status to Abrego Garcia. It was the Trump Justice Department then that decided not to appeal it or fight it.
Do you believe that they should have here?
HOMAN: Well, the conditions of the country are different now than they were back then. Maybe the condition of the country is one that their withholding made sense. I mean, again, I wasn't familiar with the case back in the first administration.
But lot of things could have changed since I -- changed since then. The condition in the countries could change. The ruling could change. The facts of the case could change. I'm not familiar on the investigation, the removal from back in the Trump 45. But I'm sure DOJ is well-aware of it, and they're litigating it as they seem appropriate.
COLLINS: But are they litigating it? Because what we heard from the Attorney General, essentially, the other day, was that it's out of their hands to have him return to the United States, that it's up to the President of El Salvador.
HOMAN: Well, that's a question for Pam Bondi. Again, I -- DOJ has their mission. I have my mission. That's a question for her.
COLLINS: But you are someone who has worked in immigration for decades, and you have a view here, that you believe that this was the right move, ultimately, to have him sent here.
[21:10:00]
But wouldn't the proper stance here, essentially be to contest this in court, to try to terminate that order, and then have him sent? And then you wouldn't be in the middle of this massive legal fight that is playing out over where the administration's right is here, and whether or not they violated an order, a court order.
HOMAN: I don't think they violated court order. I think we did the right thing. And I think it's been litigated by DOJ, and I'll let them fight that on court or not fight it on court. But I think we did the right thing. As far as what we should do next in judicial process or litigation, I'll leave it up to DOJ. That's their job.
COLLINS: But of course, you are someone who is at the center of the immigration fight, and deporting people who are here illegally. This one individual--
HOMAN: How is I the center of immigration fight, and all these -- it's just, you know, Kaitlan, no one asks these questions about the proper vetting of the millions of people the Biden administration pushed across the border, and released in this country illegally. No one is concerned about the vetting, then. All of a sudden now, everybody wants to be concerned about the vetting of people that need to be deported. I mean, it seems like a one-side show.
But I stand by the fact that I think things were done right with this case. He's an MS-13 gang member. He has a final order of removal. He is designated terrorist. And he's back in El Salvador, his homeland. And anything beyond that, we'll let the courts settle on them.
COLLINS: You say everything was done right here. And I heard Stephen Miller, in the Oval Office on Monday, also arguing that he was lawfully deported. But this administration has admitted in court that he was mistakenly deported, that he should not have been deported.
HOMAN: Look, they say there was an administrative error. But if you look at the case, if I look at the case as a non-attorney, just an enforcement officer, I think things were done right.
Again, they're talking about, well, the movement of paper (ph), or about the withholding. But if we look at the case, then he's designated terrorist. I think that withholding has been set aside. That is my opinion. But again, we'll let DOJ fight it out.
COLLINS: Well, I mean, the Solicitor General, who is the third in the chain of command at the DOJ has said that this was an error.
HOMAN: Then I'll let them deal with that. I'm giving you my opinion. I said I'm not going to get in the middle of what DOJ's arguing in court. I'm telling you from my stance, what we've done, I believe, is correct, and that's why DOJ's standing by the fact that what we did was right.
COLLINS: I have seen some people look at this, and say they're worried that the stance of this administration, when it comes to this, is that if someone is deported by accident, that they have no responsibility for them once they are in the custody of another -- of a foreign government. What would you say to that?
HOMAN: Well, they're in the custody of El Salvador. He's an El Salvadoran national. He was born in El Salvador. El Salvador has him in custody, and El Salvador decides what's going to -- what'll happen to him. I mean, again, the El Salvadoran President made it clear he's not going to release him.
So again, I'm going to go back, the DOJ, they can fight this out in the courts, as I'm not a part of that. I'm not -- I'm not an attorney. I'm not a prosecutor. So we'll let the courts know and decide what the next steps will be.
COLLINS: Even though it was a U.S. immigration judge, who said the one place he can't go is El Salvador. I mean, he could have been deported, literally anywhere else--
HOMAN: Again -- again we--
COLLINS: --and this would not be a fight.
HOMAN: We keep going back and back. Well, again, that was -- that was years ago. Country conditions were different. That gang no longer exists in El Salvador. He had been designated a terrorist since that time.
Two different federal judges said he's an MS-13 member. A police department said he's an MS-13 member. ICE status shows he's an MS-13 member. El Salvador says he's an MS-13 member. As you know, MS-13 been designated terrorist. The case says -- the facts of the case have changed since that first decision.
So again, I'll leave it up to DOJ to argue that case in court. But that is where I stand, and that's my belief.
COLLINS: Yes, it was six years ago, of course, when that happened, under -- when Trump was in office, as I noted.
In her ruling, the judge here, Judge Xinis, that I quoted, of Maryland, said, quote, No evidence before the court connects Abrego Garcia to MS-13, or any other criminal organization.
You just argued yourself that you believe there is evidence of that. Why has that not been included in this? Why has the administration not made that argument, not just publicly on television, but in court?
HOMAN: Well, there is evidence, like two different federal judges said he was MS-13 gang member, immigration court as a part of file. You know the file's -- the file's there.
And I think yesterday, the administration did release police reports on this subject being MS-13 member, and being involved with MS-13 activities, and even had rank within MS-13. I think those -- some of those reports were released yesterday.
COLLINS: But I don't see any of that being made in a court filing. I've been looking at the court filings. Yes, I've heard it in the briefing room. I've heard it in television interviews. But I haven't seen any of that in court, where it obviously, not just the court of public opinion here.
[21:15:00]
HOMAN: Well, it's not a court of public opinion. It's evidence that was released yesterday, showing to American people, this person was actually a member of MS-13, and the police report showing that.
So look, again, admitting it in a court, that's the job of the Department of Justice. I'm with -- I'm in Homeland Security, and I enforce immigration law. But Department of Justice litigates. So if there's something that needs to be given to the court, as evidence to the court, then I'll leave it up to DOJ. That is -- that is their mission, their job and their responsibility.
COLLINS: Has the DHS shared this information with the Justice Department, so they theoretically could make that argument in court if they wanted to?
HOMAN: The administration released it yesterday at the White House. I'm sure everybody's aware of it. I mean, I saw it. And, I mean, it's out there.
COLLINS: Right. But it's different than in a court argument, is what I'm--
HOMAN: I'm sure you've -- I'm sure you've seen it. I mean, it's out in the media. I'm sure you've even seen it. I mean, it's all there.
I mean, I don't know what the Department of Justice, what their plan is, and what their procedure is, or what they're doing with this information. But it's out there for all of America to see. The police report has been shared by the White House is out there. Anybody can read it.
COLLINS: Yes. Well, the judge here seems to argue that it should be made in a court filing, and she has not seen that yet.
Mr. Homan, you have been brought in to carry out this mass deportation effort, one of the biggest promises that President Trump made when he was on the campaign trail. We saw a poll from The Washington Post that found that 56 percent of Americans supported deporting all undocumented immigrants in the United States.
Given the concerns that have surrounded this, though, with due process and whether or not a court order from an immigration judge was violated here, do you worry that this essentially clouds that effort that you were undertaking here?
HOMAN: No. No court order was disobeyed. I've said, again, the facts of the case have changed since that court order came down. Withholding, I think, is set aside because he is now classified as a terrorist. And he wasn't, back when that court order was given. So I don't think mistake was made.
But look, we are -- we are keeping the promise of President Trump. We're going to remove illegal aliens from this country with a priority on public safety threats and national security threats, and that's what we're doing.
The vast majority of people we're removing, we're arresting and deporting, are criminals. The collaterals, the non-criminals, there's a population that means (ph) creeping up, and it's creeping up because sanctuary cities won't let us get the criminal in the county jail. You and I have talked about this. So we got to go in the neighborhood and find them.
And when we find that criminal alien, many times, they're with others who are in the country illegally. May not be a criminal target, but they're in the country legally. ICE is there. ICE is going to take them in custody too. So we're going to continue doing what we do, until the aperture opens up beyond the criminals.
COLLINS: I mean, I think there are a lot of questions about whether or not due process is being followed here, for the people who are being deported. Obviously, you have stood by that.
The other option that has been raised by President Trump here is deporting and sending American prisoners to foreign prisons, including in El Salvador. I asked you about this other day. You said you had not -- you had just gotten back, you had not heard about it yet.
Just to follow-up, do you believe it would be legal to send American prisoners to foreign prisons?
HOMAN: Again, I'm in the deportation business. So I don't think you're talking about deportation. I think you're talking about prisoner transfer or extradition. That's a question for Pam Bondi, the Department of Justice, and the U.S. Marshals.
I'm in the deportation business, so I deal with illegal aliens that get a final order to deport, and that's what I'm in the business of. U.S. citizens, I don't -- I don't deport U.S. citizens.
I think what they're talking about is either extradition or prisoner transfer, and that'd be a question for DOJ.
COLLINS: But you personally would not be involved in sending American prisoners to foreign prisons, including in El Salvador?
HOMAN: As the border czar, I will not remove U.S. citizens. No. The Department of Justice can either do that through prisoner transfer or extradition. That would be under the -- that's out of my lane. That would be with the Department of Justice and U.S. Marshals.
COLLINS: Tom Homan, I really appreciate your time tonight. Thank you, sir.
HOMAN: Thank you.
COLLINS: And I want to bring you some breaking news on this very topic tonight, as we are just hearing from the Maryland Democratic senator, Chris Van Hollen, who has been in El Salvador for the last day, posting on social media just tonight that he has met with Abrego Garcia in El Salvador, sharing this picture with him, as you can see, the two of them sitting at a table.
As the Senator wrote, quote, I said my main goal of this trip was to meet with Kilmar. Tonight I had that chance. I have also called his wife, Jennifer, to pass along his message of love. I look forward to providing a full update upon my return.
You can see there, of course, the Senator sitting down, meeting. We also know he met with El Salvador's Vice President yesterday, as he and others in his party have been fighting to bring Abrego Garcia back to the United States.
Look at this. This is what the President of El Salvador, President Bukele, also posted tonight. Tweeting, Kilmar Abrego Garcia, miraculously risen from the death camps and torture, now sipping margaritas with Senator Van Hollen in the tropical paradise of El Salvador.
[21:20:00]
Of course, you can see there, he is not inside that prison, the notorious mega prison that we were told he was deported to. A lot of questions for the Senator on what happens next here, and what he learned from that meeting. We'll bring you more developments as we get them.
Also tonight, we're tracking new information on that devastating mass shooting that happened at Florida State University. Two people were killed, multiple injured. What we know about the accused gunman here, who is the son of a local sheriff's deputy, and is in custody tonight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: We're learning shocking new details tonight, on the shooting that happened today at Florida State University, as police now reveal that the alleged shooter is the son of a local sheriff's deputy.
Police say that the 20-year-old suspect here, Phoenix Ikner, opened fire around noon, killing two people who were not students, and injuring five others on campus.
[21:25:00]
What unfolded was a scene that we have seen all too often here in the United States. Students with their arms above their heads, as they make their way through the hallway. Others running in fear for their lives. Desks stacked on top of each other, in an attempt to block doorways. And that terrifying sound of gunshots on a campus.
I want to warn you that what you're about to see from today and what you're about to hear is disturbing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(GUNSHOTS)
(BLEEP)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Police say that they shot the suspect, that he remains in the hospital tonight. As officials have also recovered a shotgun in the Student Center, another in the suspect's car, as well as a handgun, which turned out to be his mother's old service weapon.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHERIFF WALTER MCNEIL, LEON COUNTY, FLORIDA: The alleged shooter was also a longstanding member of the Leon County Sheriff's Office Citizen Advisory or our Youth Advisory Council. So he has been steep in the Leon County Sheriff's Office family, engaged in a number of training programs that we have. So it's not a surprise to us that he had access to weapons.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My source tonight is the former FBI Deputy Director, Andrew McCabe.
And it's great to have you here.
I mean, it's pretty chilling to hear him say there, Not a surprise that he had access to these weapons that were on campus with him today.
ANDREW MCCABE, FORMER FBI DEPUTY DIRECTOR, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Yes, not a surprise at all, right?
We -- as common as these tragedies are, each one of them unfolds with its own unique misery. And certainly, this element of the story today is totally unique in my experience, in covering many of these and, of course, working many of them in the FBI.
So we have the child of not just a law enforcement officer, but a deputy sheriff who was employed as a school safety officer. So her job, her career, has been to provide a safe space for students to learn, and for their teachers to teach them. And now to have her own -- her own son, engage in a shooting, it's just -- it's just head spinning.
COLLINS: And what we heard tonight was that he was not speaking to law enforcement, as he had been taken into custody. He had been shot. He was alive still. How does that investigate -- we always -- we see so many of these instances where the shooter dies, in these--
MCCABE: That's right.
COLLINS: --in these incidents, whether it's by self-inflicted, or if it's from police.
What does it say that, and what does this mean for the investigation, that he's still alive?
MCCABE: So the steps they're taking right now are very similar. It starts with the search warrant at the residence, where you hope to collect as much computer media, telephones, all the devices that he might be using to contact other people, to conduct internet searches, things like that. And then you'll execute search warrants on all those devices.
But the results of all those searches, the stakes are much higher for those results in a case like this, where you are going to have to prosecute this person.
Now, while it's not legally necessary to be able to prove motive in court, lawyers like to be able to lay that out for a jury, to explain how we got to this point of tragedy. So, I'm sure they're doing a lot of work in that regard tonight.
They'll expand the scope by also identifying his contacts, his friends, maybe if he has -- if he has a -- if he works some place, they'll contact all of those people, and conduct hundreds of interviews, to get a better sense of who they're dealing with.
COLLINS: We saw for the first time recently, where a parent was held accountable for a school shooting carried out by their child. We don't know a lot of -- we're still waiting and learning a lot of the details here tonight. But given this was his mom's old service weapon, is that something that could be at play here?
MCCABE: I'm sure it's something they'll look into. But as you've -- as you mentioned, we don't have a really good grasp of the facts that would suggest that that will be a productive inquiry for them.
The cases in which we've seen parents held responsible had some really egregious facts, parents who supplied their minor children with weapons, despite knowing that they were suffering from psychological trauma and things of that nature, so.
And this is a different case, in that he's a 20-year-old adult, who shares the home, obviously, with his parents. Even the Florida gun safety laws are designed to require parents to protect guns from minor children. So here, and the fact that he's an adult, it really puts that into a very different light.
COLLINS: Yes. Andrew McCabe, we'll stay on top of all the new details. Thank you for your expertise tonight.
MCCABE: Sure.
COLLINS: And back to our breaking news this hour, as we have just learned that the Democratic senator, Chris Van Hollen, of Maryland, has met with Kilmar Abrego Garcia in El Salvador. We're seeing the first pictures of this mistakenly deported man since that happened, and the senator. They're joined together in these pictures, as we can see here. More details about what we've learned, and what this means for this case, next.
[21:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: We have some breaking news this hour. A major update in a case that has been a big flashpoint for the Trump White House, in its attempt to carry out an aggressive deportation campaign.
If you look at these images, here, you can see the Maryland Democratic senator, Chris Van Hollen, has just posted on his social media tonight, he has met with Kilmar Abrego Garcia in El Salvador.
That is the man who was mistakenly deported by the Trump administration to El Salvador, the one country that an immigration judge said he explicitly could not be deported to. Van Hollen went there to meet with him, given he was living in Maryland at the time that he was detained and then deported.
[21:35:00]
And the Senator then posted a picture with him, after he said he was initially denied a visit with Abrego Garcia. And he writes tonight, I said my main goal of this trip was to meet with Kilmar. Tonight I had that chance. I have called his wife, Jennifer, to pass along his message of love. I look forward to providing a full update upon my return.
The President of El Salvador posted his own message, moments later, saying, Kilmar Abrego Garcia miraculously risen from the, quote, "Death camps" and torture, now sipping margaritas with Senator Van Hollen in the tropical paradise of El Salvador.
President Bukele also just posted a few moments ago, we're watching these updates in real-time, that Abrego Garcia is back in custody, after that meeting with Senator Van Hollen. He wrote, quote, Now that he's been confirmed healthy, he gets the honor of staying in El Salvador's custody.
My White House insiders are here.
And Shelby, you were inside the Oval Office today, as President Trump was repeatedly asked about this. One, I think him -- Bukele referring to his health is, there were questions about whether or not he was alive and well, given he was sent to this notorious mega prison. What do you make of the images that we're seeing from Senator Van Hollen tonight?
SHELBY TALCOTT, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, SEMAFOR: I think it's surprising. When we were in Oval Office, the President was asked repeatedly about this, and really didn't give any actual answer. He just said, essentially, Talk to my lawyers about it, which is notable when it comes to the President, because he is not always known for sort of following what his lawyers want him to say.
But I think there's a lot of questions now. We don't have a lot of information. Did the White House know about this? If this man is actually a gang member, why is he meeting with a lawmaker, presumably out of prison, with margaritas? What happens now? Is he going back to the El Salvador prison? So there are a lot of questions that I think we still don't know about.
COLLINS: Yes, and also, it's interesting. These were the images that Van Hollen posted, Jasmine, where there's no margaritas in this picture.
JASMINE WRIGHT, POLITICS REPORTER, NOTUS: Yes.
COLLINS: I mean, there are obviously real questions about how this is being staged--
WRIGHT: Sure.
COLLINS: --and managed from both perspectives that we are hearing from this in real-time tonight. What do you make of this, and also what Bukele has been posting on Twitter since?
WRIGHT: Yes. I mean, I think for Bukele, this is why Donald Trump likes him.
Bukele is creating the narrative, basically to throw it back into Democrats' face, that CECOT is not a dangerous place, although, notoriously, it is known that it is, and that Democrats are basically overreacting and thus throwing themselves in the same pool as gang members, really bolstering the White House's narrative.
I think the politics on this is kind of a wait-and-see game.
In some ways, Van Hollen can come back and dominate at least one news cycle, tomorrow, talking about just what terrible treatment this man is receiving in this El Salvadorian prison, and the fact that the White House is not adhering to due process, one of the tenets of American society.
But then it could also kind of blow back in his face, and we just don't know yet, because the politics just haven't played out yet.
COLLINS: Well, and we heard from Senator Van Hollen earlier. For people who haven't been watching this very closely. He's been in El Salvador. He has not been able to visit with Abrego Garcia. He held a press conference earlier, essentially arguing this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. CHRIS VAN HOLLEN (D-MD): Our goal was very simple today, which was to check on the health and wellbeing of Kilmar.
But we were stopped by soldiers at a checkpoint, about three kilometers from the CECOT prison. We were told by the soldiers that they've been ordered not to allow us to proceed any further than that point.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TALCOTT: Right, so the question is, what changed, right? Why suddenly was he able to meet with this man, and what happens next? We don't have any of those answers. I don't know if he has those answers either.
We were told -- my colleague at Semafor asked and confirmed that this meeting happened, and they said that they'd have more information tomorrow. So perhaps we'll learn more tomorrow.
WRIGHT: Yes.
TALCOTT: But again, this is -- this is playing out in real-time. And we don't know exactly what changed. Clearly something changed, and I'm really curious about whether the White House was in touch with El Salvador--
COLLINS: Yes.
TALCOTT: --leading up to this sort of photo evidence.
COLLINS: And also the big news, when you were in the Oval Office, earlier today, was what the President said about the Federal Reserve Chair, Jay Powell, which it seemed like this was inevitable, given we saw Jay Powell, yesterday, criticizing the President's tariffs.
Nick, you're here. And you've been talking about the Federal Chair -- the Reserve Chair's future, potentially.
The question tonight really is, can Trump fire Jay Powell, or force his ouster, after he made very clear today that his termination cannot come soon enough, even though he's got another year left on his term, and essentially was heavily critical of him inside the Oval Office.
NICK TIMIRAOS, CHIEF ECONOMICS CORRESPONDENT, THE WALL STREET JOURNAL: Well, you have to remember, Trump has done this before. He did it in his first term.
The Fed Chair, Jay Powell, is, you know, he speaks in dry, understated tones. He doesn't -- he doesn't punch back. So he's almost a perfect scapegoat here.
[21:40:00]
And what's happening, you know, Paul Riley (ph) observed yesterday that tariffs are not going to be great for the economy, in the short run. They're going to send up prices, and they could weaken growth. We could have a recession. He didn't say that.
And so, it puts the Fed in a very difficult spot. It is a supply shock for the economy. It's an awful situation for central bankers, really, because they have to focus on, do you -- do you try to prevent prices from going higher? Or do you try to prevent growth from getting weaker? And you only have one tool, which is interest rates. Trying to help on one could make the other worse, and vice versa.
COLLINS: And the question is, legally, can he do this? I mean, Trump has tested that theory on other situations. But the second is, what would the markets do, if Trump did something that no other U.S. President has ever tried to do, which is oust the Federal Reserve Chair?
TIMIRAOS: Well, see, Kaitlan, that's the issue. I mean, people can talk about what Justices Roberts and Alito and Kavanaugh would do in this hypothetical scenario. But the real guardrail here is the bond market.
The bond market is what got Donald Trump to back down on tariffs, one week ago. And the reaction of the market, I mean, you talk to people on Wall Street, they treat this as sort of a holy, sacrosanct thing.
And if you're going to pull the Fed Chair out of there, that's the sort of thing that you see in emerging markets. You see it in Turkey. Oh, I'll put my cousin in there. That's not the sort of thing that you want to do with a $30 trillion Treasury debt in the economy that you need to roll over. COLLINS: Safe to say that is not true.
Nick, great to have you. Also, Jasmine and Shelby, for your reporting.
Up next. He resigned from a top law firm, here in Washington, after it struck a deal with President Trump. Why? We'll hear it from the source himself.
[21:45:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: As of tonight's counting, at least nine big law firms have struck deals with President Trump and his White House, altogether, committing about a billion dollars' worth of free legal work for the administration, all to escape the President's revenge campaign for their partners' or their clients' political work, and any ties to criminal investigations into the President.
According to The New York Times, some of those firms have agreed to do pro bono work on uncontroversial causes, like helping veterans. But the President has also suggested in recent days that he expects them to do a whole lot more.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I think we're going to try to use these, these very prestigious firms, to help us out with the trade.
Japan is flying here to make a deal. South Korea is flying here to make a deal. And others are flying here. I mean, my only problem is, I'm not sure I have enough. We're going to have to use those, those great law firms, I think, to help us with that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: The New York Times also reports tonight, that White House officials believe these firms could be called upon to represent Trump, or any of his allies, if they become ensnared in investigations.
One of those elite law firms, Paul Weiss, cut a deal with the President, last month, to provide $40 million in free legal work. Weeks later, the top pro bono leader at that firm resigned. His name is Steven Banks -- Steve Banks, and he joins me now.
And it's great to have you here, sir.
Because you ultimately made the decision to leave weeks after this agreement was struck. Was it because of this agreement?
STEVEN BANKS, RESIGNED FROM PAUL WEISS' PRO BONO PRACTICE: Well, thanks for having me on.
I turned 68 recently, and I know that my time as a lawyer to make a difference is narrowing. I've had a lot of opportunities as a lawyer. I spent 33 years at The Legal Aid Society in New York City, including 10 years running it. I served as the City Social Services Commissioner for eight years, running an agency I had sued for most of my time as a Legal Aid lawyer. And then I ran the pro bono program for three years at Paul Weiss.
But at this historical moment, it's really a break-the-glass kind of moment, where people are really needed on the front lines. And I wanted to go back to the front lines, where I had been when I started as a Legal Aid lawyer, 44 years ago, trying to make a difference.
Another thing that happened in my life recently is I became a grandfather. And I know that when my granddaughter is older, she's going to say, Grandpa, what did you do when so much was at stake? And I want to be able to say, I reported back to the front lines.
And frankly, your interview a little earlier this evening, about the Garcia case is sort of Exhibit A for why I know I needed to be back on the front lines, with my colleagues at Legal Aid and the not-for- profits, that are really fighting for the rule of law.
Listening to the answers to your questions about why someone was deported by mistake, when you had a valid order from an immigration judge that said that shouldn't have happened, should send chills through all of us that we're at a moment where our democracy is at stake and our government, that is so critical for people, is at stake.
And I just thought that going back to my roots was really where I was needed.
COLLINS: Yes.
BANKS: This is something that's been weighing heavily on me since the election, and--
COLLINS: Yes.
BANKS: --and I wanted to take this step now.
COLLINS: Well, congratulations on your grandchild, and happy belated as well.
BANKS: Thank you very much.
COLLINS: That's very exciting time. I know that.
I just wonder, though, given your experience in both different -- in different roles and facets, some of these law firms are fighting this. Some are going to court and saying, You can't do this to us. I wonder what you make in the difference in how some firms are handling this and others that are choosing to go to court.
BANKS: With respect, I think one of the sort of distractions from what is happening in the country is who is fighting and who is not. We need everybody to be part of this fight, but let's keep our eye on who's the actual villain here. It's the person, making these demands on institutions, on universities, on the law firms. And no one person -- I can't change everything for the better. But lots of people working together on the front lines can change things for the better.
[21:50:00]
But we have to keep focused on what the problem is. The problem isn't necessarily institutions that are being forced to make deals. The problem is the person who is forcing them to make those deals. And if we don't all stand up, and do what we can, I think the democracy that our Founding Fathers set up is going to have a short life.
COLLINS: Kind of sounds like you view it, not just for law firms, but for schools and stuff. I mean, maybe I don't want to put words in your mouth, you tell me, but do you believe it's -- it borderlines on extortion?
BANKS: Well, listen, listening to the clip you just played, where the deals were about providing pro bono services, across a number of different firms, helping with tariffs, helping with trade agreements. That's not pro bono.
Pro bono is providing services to the least fortunate among us, the most vulnerable among us. And the organizations, the not-for-profits that serve the most needy, the most vulnerable among us, people like Mr. Garcia, people like his family, people like the clients who are experiencing homelessness in New York City that the Coalition is serving which I'm going back to work with.
That's what pro bono is about, helping people who can't help themselves. Not helping the government implement tariffs, which are hurting people, across the country, raising the prices of the basics that people need to live. And not just the clients that I've represented, but everyday Americans are suffering.
COLLINS: Mr. Banks, thank you for joining tonight.
BANKS: Thank you for having me.
COLLINS: Up next tonight. A special story to me. The legendary Lee Corso has just announced he is retiring from College GameDay, after nearly four decades on the job. His ESPN co-host, Rece Davis, is going to join me next.
[21:55:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: If you know College GameDay, you know the legend that is Lee Corso.
After nearly four decades at the desk, and more than 400 famous mascot headgear picks, Lee Corso is signing off from College GameDay. But as he'd say, Not so fast, my friend. He'll make one final pick on August 30th, as ESPN kicks off the college football season.
And Corso, who turns 90 in August, has been part of GameDay since it debuted in 1987, and has provided us with so many iconic moments along the way.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEE CORSO, AMERICAN BROADCASTER AND SPORTS COACH: I'll tell you what.
(CHEERING)
CORSO: Buckeyes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Off comes the headset.
(CHEERING)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On goes the headgear.
(CHEERING)
(APPLAUSE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We got a lot of games.
(CHEERING)
(APPLAUSE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Lee, where are you?
(CHEERING)
CORSO: Not here.
(CHEERING)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What is the headgear pick?
CORSO: Hey, give me that.
(CHEERING)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh-oh.
(CHEERING)
CORSO: I would have gone with Georgia. If I didn't go to Florida State. But that dog is ugly. Give me this thing here.
(BOOING)
CORSO: That's an ugly dog.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: And joining me now is Lee Corso's fellow College GameDay host, and my fellow Alabama alum, Rece Davis.
It's so great to have you here.
You called Corso, the cornerstone of College GameDay. I think everybody would agree with that. I mean, how are you feeling tonight, and just reflecting on sharing the desk with him for the last 10 years.
RECE DAVIS, HOST, ESPN'S COLLEGE GAMEDAY: Kaitlan, he's such a legend. He's the consummate entertainer. I think he was groundbreaking in the way he interacted with audiences, and just his reverence (ph) and his humor. And he just, he was sort of the soul and the conscience of our show. And we're going to miss him greatly. But we're going to celebrate him with that final show in late August, and we'll have a blast.
I spoke to him today, and he just -- I left him a message, and he thanked me. And he's sort of, Quintessential Lee was upbeat. He was fired up. And he's always -- always spreading great energy. We'll certainly miss him. He's been -- he's the reason that show has endured as long as it has.
COLLINS: Of course. I mean, everyone waits to see. I mean, he keeps everyone until the end, to see who he's going to pick. Is he going to put on the Big Al headgear.
I mean, you've got to have a lot of favorite moments from your time, going from city to city and town to town with him.
DAVIS: I think anytime that you came up with something you wanted to do, like I love to write the open. He and I used to joke, I said, LC, the only thing that matters, the beginning of the show and the headgear. Everything else in the middle is just filler material.
But we were in Chicago, a few years ago, Kaitlan, and we got the actual police car from the Blues Brothers movie. And LC and I dressed up like Blues Brothers. We scripted this open, and he was totally into it the whole time, delivered the line, delivered his Belushi line perfectly.
He crowd-surfed at Penn State, one time, when security was going. This is a really bad idea, and so I get on the headset, and say, LC, security wants you to come back, they worry the crowd will put you down. And he said, Hell no, sweetheart, we're doing it. You know? He would always tell us, Entertainment, sweetheart, football is our vehicle.
COLLINS: I mean, I think the question everyone has is, one, you can never replace Lee Corso. I mean, as you just noted there, like to hear how he interacted with the crowd. But are the headgear picks still going to happen? Is that still something you all have to decide?
DAVIS: I think I'm going to have to tackle anybody that tries to do a headgear pick, other than Lee Corso. That, to me, is his signature moment, and it should stay with him, in my judgment. And I will fight very hard not to be overruled or vetoed on that, because many people tell me that it's just something that they look forward to every week. And I think -- I think that is his and his alone.
COLLINS: I totally -- I totally agree with that.
[22:00:00]
Rece Davis, tell Lee, give him our best, we love watching him. And I can't wait to watch his final pick. Thank you so much for joining us to talk about him tonight.
DAVIS: Thanks for having me, Kaitlan. See you soon.
COLLINS: Great to have you. Roll Tide.
And thank you all so much for joining us.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" is up next.
