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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Trump Tones Down Attacks On China Marking Shift In Trade War; Trump Presses Zelenskyy, Not Putin, To Give In On Peace Deal; Dick Durbin, Number Two Senate Democrat, Won't Run For Re-Election. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired April 23, 2025 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
IRENE WEISS, HOLOCAUST SURVIVOR: --not so subtly changing as we watch it in this country. Who is the enemy? Who is to be hated? Who is to be excluded? It's happening all the time.
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ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: Irene Weiss. You can listen to the full interview with Irene Weiss. It's on my podcast, "All There Is." It's available wherever you get your podcasts. It's in the third season of the podcast. It's an incredible interview. I hope you listen to it.
That's it for us. Kaitlan Collins, and "THE SOURCE" starts now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: It was just a few days ago, here at the White House, that the nation's top three retailers, all issued a warning, directly to President Trump, about his sweeping trade war that's underway, and warning about what they could see in a matter of weeks. Empty shelves in stores and major supply chain disruptions. Certainly a scary warning for a president who was elected to bring down prices for Americans.
Was that what resulted in the President turning the dial down, when it came to his talk about tariffs on China? We'll tell you what he's saying tonight.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: And welcome to THE SOURCE tonight, here in Washington, where wild swings in the stock market are becoming increasingly normal, as the White House's message on President Trump's trade war with China is up, down, and then often up again.
It was the President's own actions and his words that triggered the economic chaos, confusion and panic from a lot of investors that we've been hearing from. Though, a stark warning from the chiefs of the nation's top three retailers seems to have driven home the message about a potential course correction, key word being, potential.
CNN has confirmed that the CEOs of Walmart, Target, and Home Depot, and Lowe's, warned him directly that as a result of his ongoing trade war, it could be American consumers confronting empty shelves, as soon as two weeks from now.
It's that message, in part, that is driving what we are hearing from the President, as he considers slashing the steep tariffs that he enacted against China, only weeks ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: How soon do you want to bring the tariffs on Chinese goods?
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Well, that depends on them.
Over the next two, three weeks, we'll be setting the number--
REPORTER: Fourth time (ph).
TRUMP: --and we're going to pick.
REPORTER: Were you worried about what the 145 percent tariffs were doing to small businesses here in the U.S.?
TRUMP: No, no.
REPORTER: Is that why you're bringing it down?
TRUMP: No, no. No, I haven't brought it down. I haven't brought it -- still 145, I haven't brought it down.
REPORTER: But you're saying (ph)--
TRUMP: I said it's a high tariff. It is a high tariff. But I haven't brought it down.
I get along very well with President Xi, and I hope we can make a deal. Otherwise we'll set a price. And hopefully, they'll come here, and they'll contribute. And if they don't, that's OK.
Going to get along great with China, I have no doubt about it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: So, just to summarize, in the last 24 hours, President Trump said the tariffs on Chinese goods would come down, quote, Substantially, noting the sky-high number that is currently in place at 145 percent. That caused investors to take a breath, maybe for the first time in weeks, for some of them. They liked what they heard. The markets shot up. But about an hour after those markets closed today, the President argued that really what happens here depends on China.
We also heard from the Treasury Secretary, Scott Bessent, who said there won't be a unilateral disarmament in this trade war, meaning, basically that if Trump blinks, China has to blink right there along with him.
There's no public indication so far that the Chinese president is rushing to get on the phone, or to potentially slash those tariffs. We still haven't heard of any direct engagement, at the highest level, between the White House and Beijing.
But as some in China are taking a victory lap over all of this, and mocking President Trump, this hashtag, Trump Chickened Out, became a top trend on social media there. It racked up more than a 150 million views, we're told.
And while Wall Street liked what Trump said yesterday, they're also looking for action and maybe fewer comments like these.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: China obviously treats us very badly.
Ripped off and taken advantage of by China.
They've ripped us off beyond anybody. We're resetting the table.
If you retaliate, we're going to double it, and that's what I did with China.
What other presidents allow China to get away with is absolutely criminal, but I'm not like the other presidents.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now, the President has been arguing that, yes, while it is disruptive, his trade war is worth the pain to fix a system, he thinks, is fundamentally unfair.
But there is a line for the President, apparently, when it comes to disruption.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Would you support a millionaire tax?
TRUMP: I think it would be very disruptive, because a lot of the millionaires would leave the country. You know, in the old days, they left states. They'd go from one state to the other. Now, with transportation so quick and so easy, they leave countries. You lose a lot of money, if you do that. That would -- and other countries that have done it have lost a lot of people. They lose their wealthy people. That would be bad, because the wealthy people pay the tax.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: For more on everything that we're seeing coming out of the White House, my fellow White House insiders are here, including CNN's Chief National Affairs Correspondent, Jeff Zeleny, and Reuters' Jeff Mason.
[21:05:00]
And Jeff Zeleny, you had reporting this morning about how it was a combination of that warning from these retailers to the President on Monday, but also pressure he's been getting from the markets, comments from his advisers on all of this. Is it a U-turn? Did it turn back around? I mean, what are we looking at right now?
JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: I think it's a U-turn for now. But can also, can always turn again, as we've seen, the on-again, off-again, trade policies.
But something has seemed different this week. And I think when the markets -- I think a 11 minutes after the markets opened, on Monday morning, when the President sent out this message, once again, calling Jerome Powell, the Chairman of the Federal Reserve, a major loser, that really set -- was one of the things that set the markets just into chaos that day.
And at the same time, later that day, he had this meeting in the Oval Office. And we knew about it at the time. We didn't know exactly what was said in that meeting. But I am told that these four CEOs were invited in by the White House Chief of Staff, Susie Wiles, and others, to kind of give the President somewhat of an education on what the real-world impact of these tariff policy fallout sort of is.
And the empty shelves, really, kind of is an image. That's what you can see. And the President is so attuned to visuals. We know that he is. And this is something that, of course, harkens back to the pandemic, but even before that. I mean, think of the 1970s gas lines, or something like that. So I'm told, the image, and just the idea of that really sort of rattled him.
But really, ever since then, they have softened their tone on China after that. So I think we've seen a shift this week. Will it last, who knows? But it doesn't answer the big question, what does it do with China? He's softening his tone. China has been silent.
COLLINS: Yes, and he was saying today that there's some high-level talks, or that there are direct talks between China, he says every day.
But there's a real question to Jeff's point, of what this looks like, and actually, where it's going anytime soon, which is the real question.
JEFF MASON, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, REUTERS: 100 percent. And I think that's a little bit why you didn't see the markets go up even further today.
I started my career as a stock market reporter. I know what those--
COLLINS: So what do you make of what's happening?
MASON: I know what those traders are talking about.
ZELENY: Astute planning (ph). MASON: I didn't know -- didn't know that at the time.
But those traders are talking about these things, and they don't know what to believe.
And so when the President says, one day, We need to terminate Jay Powell, and the next day says, I never had that intention? When the President says, one day, I get along great with the China, and the next day, We're doing a 145 percent? That kind of mixed message makes it really hard to plan.
It makes it hard to plan for businesses. It makes it hard to plan for CEOs. And it makes it hard to make investment decisions for the people who are on those trading floors.
COLLINS: Well, and I think that is really the key point here. All of this is being driven truly by President Trump. I mean, the stock market will go up at the whim of something that the Treasury Secretary said, behind closed doors. That was reported and quickly dispersed to reporters. But really, everything that we're seeing here is it's the Trump effect on the markets, and it's completely driven by what he is saying.
ZELENY: It definitely is. And it's a reason that for three days in a row this week, he was not scheduled to make any public remarks till after the markets closed.
MASON: Yes, I think of--
ZELENY: He did wander out onto the North Lawn today, to look for a place to plant a flagpole, and he talked for a second. But he's being managed in a big way.
But the Treasury Secretary, you mentioned him, I mean, those remarks yesterday were by design, once again, for Scott Bessent, to sort of calm the markets. He's emerged as a leading figure in a role that that is what a central part of his job is. And the President is clearly -- is clearly listening to him, for now.
COLLINS: Yes.
And for people who are curious about the flagpoles, we're going to get back to that in a moment, later on in this show.
But we're also hearing from Senate Republicans, including James Lankford, who is essentially talking about the timing of all of this, and how important that is to his constituents.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JAMES LANKFORD (R-OK): But my advice is resolve it as quickly as we can, stabilize the opportunity where people can actually do contracts.
Because our worst-case scenario is people pause for two, three, four, months to be able to figure out what's going to happen in the future, and we start having supply chain issues, like we did during COVID, where there's one or two parts that people just can't get, and we start to be able to deal with all those dynamics.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Is there any point, where the White House feels maybe they are backed into a corner, or that President Trump is, in terms of what he said he's going to do, and the realities of the effects of that?
MASON: A couple of things, like when they do feel backed into a corner, President Trump does not react well. I mean, he doesn't react with what some people would consider a reasonable response. So, if people are trying to back him into a corner, I think what we've seen from both the first term, and now, that that's probably not going to lead to them getting the result that they want.
Number two, I think he knows, and I think this White House knows right now that they own this economy, and they also know that there are political ramifications to that. So that's, I think, one of the reasons why there's been a little bit of more hinting of flexibility.
[21:10:00]
But the final thing I would say is reality check, making 90 deals with 90 countries in 90 days is a nearly impossible task. And so, if people think that that's going to happen that quickly, and that there's going to be a resolution to this quickly, it's hard, reasonably, to look at that and make that expectation.
COLLINS: Yes, and a topline agreement is not a full-fledged trade deal.
Jeff Zeleny, and Jeff Mason, great to have both of our Jeffs here tonight.
My next source is an economist, who served as the Director of the National Economic Council, the Vice Chair of the Federal Reserve, that's timely, and also the Undersecretary of the Treasury.
Dr. Lael Brainard, it's great to have you here.
Just on the China aspect of all of this, and what we're seeing play out. I was thinking about this today, because under Presidents Obama and Biden, you spoke about the need to stand up to China's trade practices, that it is unfair.
And I've heard this from some executives who say, the President has a point on China and the U.S. trade. But their point is, usually, It's how it's done that is the problem that they're having.
LAEL BRAINARD, FORMER NATIONAL ECONOMIC COUNCIL DIRECTOR, FORMER VICE CHAIR OF THE FEDERAL RESERVE, FORMER UNDERSECRETARY OF THE TREASURY, GEORGETOWN UNIV. PSAROS CENTER FOR FINANCIAL MARKETS & POLICY, HARVARD KENNEDY SCHOOL: Absolutely.
So, I think that clearly you do have to stand up for fair trade. American businesses and workers expect you to. And China has not been a fair trader.
The last administration raised tariffs on cars from China to 100 percent. And that was done after an investigation that made very clear they were using unfair practices to flood international markets with unfairly underpriced cars. So there are times where you absolutely have to stand up and do that.
What is different this time is that this White House has imposed very high tariffs on every country, and then backed off in the face of market pressures, and has ramped up tariffs against China to a 145 percent. That's basically stopping trade with China. And, again, backed off when the markets really pushed back. And so, it's different than having targeted, strategic tariffs.
COLLINS: Yes, the President himself today, in the Oval Office, acknowledged that trade with China is basically stopped. Because the tariffs are so high that it just makes the prices too insane, essentially.
I wonder what you see, though, in how China is responding to this. We saw the Foreign Ministry put out a statement today, saying, When they're ready to be respectful and not bullying. To that effect. I'm not quoting exactly.
What stands out to you about the fact that we haven't yet seen, kind of that direct contact between President Trump and President Xi that we know of, I should caveat?
BRAINARD: Well, I think they, first of all, did a lot of tit-for-tat kind of escalation. So, they raised their tariffs, and went after very specific industries in the U.S. They went after Hollywood movies. They went after Boeing. They're going after our agricultural exports.
So, they made clear that they have some negotiating leverage here, too. And they have sat back and waited, for this administration to come to them. And that's what we saw in the last two days.
COLLINS: Yes. And, speaking of all this, Jeff Mason made the great point there about how much of this is hinging on the Federal Reserve, and how that's also shaking the markets up, up and down, up and down.
The President today was essentially trying to say, and to a degree, that he hasn't considered or talked about firing the Federal Reserve chair, Jay Powell. He did say his termination couldn't come fast enough.
I should note, you were interviewed to be the Fed chair, by President Biden, and you have been a close adviser, previously, of the current Fed chair, Jay Powell's. This is what Trump had to say about him today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I haven't called him. But I believe he's making a mistake by not lowering interest rates. And I think as well as we're doing, we'd do much better. He's keeping rates too high. He historically has been late, except when it came to Biden. He was recommended by a certain person that I'm not particularly happy with. But he will hopefully do the right thing. The right thing is to lower interest rates. So we'll see what happens.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Do you think if President Trump called the Federal Reserve chair, Jay Powell, one, would he answer that?
BRAINARD: So, look, I think what the markets were telling the White House was Fed independence is an underpinning of why people like to invest in America. And when he started going after the Fed chair, it led to a market reaction that got the White House to pull back.
And it's really important that people believe that the Fed has independence to keep inflation in check. It's more important than ever, because we just had a period with high inflation, and consumers are very worried about the tariffs, raising prices and reigniting inflation.
So, right now, having the separation of the Federal Reserve, and the ability for them to make their judgments about what it takes to stop inflation from rising, is important to the markets, and of course, it's important to our economy.
[21:15:00]
COLLINS: Does the President have any point, though, when he warns that the Fed may cut interest rates too late?
BRAINARD: So it's a very complicated judgment for the members of the Federal Reserve.
It is, on the one hand, tariffs do raise prices. And the level of tariffs and the breadth of tariffs that the President has talked about, could lead to a big increase in prices.
On the other hand, they also stop businesses from investing and hiring. And so, they may weaken the economy and the job market. And that puts the Fed in a very difficult place, should it cut interest rates and--
COLLINS: Yes.
BRAINARD: --risk seeing higher inflation.
COLLINS: Well, and with Jay Powell, it was actually Steve Mnuchin, who's his Treasury Secretary in the first term, that recommended him picking Jay Powell. He did. President Biden re-nominated him, at that time, as you know.
But I just wonder, do you think about what would happen if you had that job, and what position you'd be in, in a moment like this?
BRAINARD: I think any Federal Reserve chair right now is grappling with the basic responsibility that Congress gave them. It doesn't really matter who it is. Basically, Congress said, You need, Federal Reserve, to independently keep inflation in check, while also supporting a strong labor market.
When you see a massive increase in tariffs, that threatens both sides of that basic responsibility. Higher inflation, lower employment. And any Fed chair would be grappling with this challenge.
COLLINS: Much less the President directly calling you out on a daily basis.
BRAINARD: Much more difficult when you're also hearing, indirectly, that the President thinks you're doing a bad job.
COLLINS: And knows nothing about interest rates, as he put it.
Lael Brainard, great to have you and your expertise in this matter. So thank you so much.
BRAINARD: Thank you.
COLLINS: Great to have you.
Up next. It is very clear when you hear the President speaking, as we did in the Oval Office today, that his patience, to get a deal, over the war in Ukraine, is thinning. He's accusing President Zelenskyy of prolonging Russia's war, and saying that he has two options. Peace, or fight another three years and lose his entire country.
We're going to speak to Trump's former National Security Advisor, Ambassador John Bolton, next.
[21:20:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, President Trump had a short response when he was asked if a ceasefire deal between Russia and Ukraine would include forcing Kyiv to recognize Russia's illegal seizure of Crimea in 2014. Quote, "I don't care."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Look, I just want to see the war end. I don't care. If they're both happy, they both sign an agreement. I have no favorites. I don't want to have any favorites. I want to have a deal done.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now, as the President argues that ultimately, the recognition of who controls Crimea doesn't matter to him. He does care greatly about reaching a deal to end this war in Ukraine. And, we're told, he's become increasingly frustrated that a peace agreement has proven so elusive, so far, as he is now approaching his 100th day in office.
The President told reporters today that he has no favorites when it comes to the outcome here. But he did also criticize President Zelenskyy, for being, what he said, was more difficult to deal with than President Putin.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I think we have a deal with Russia. We have to get a deal with Zelenskyy. And I hope that Zelenskyy -- I thought it might be easier to deal with Zelenskyy. So far, it's been harder, but that's OK.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: The President's Special Envoy, Steve Witkoff, who you see here, is also expected to meet one-on-one with the Russian leader, for a second time, this Friday. This comes as Russian missiles are still striking Kyiv, and Ukraine's second largest city, Kharkiv, tonight.
As my source, to start us off this hour, is Trump's former National Security Advisor, Ambassador John Bolton.
And Ambassador, when you hear what the President said, about not having favorites here. Obviously, you served as his National Security Advisor. I wonder -- I just wonder, what you make of that.
JOHN BOLTON, FORMER TRUMP NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO UNITED NATIONS: Well, of course, he's got favorites. And his favorite is not Russia. His favorite is Vladimir Putin, whom he thinks is his friend.
Trump has already made major concessions to the Russians. He has said, weeks and months ago, that he would not support Ukraine being restored to its full sovereignty and territorial integrity, which is a rejection of the U.S. position and the NATO position, going back to February 24th, 2022, when the Russians invaded.
Trump has said that Ukraine will never become a member of NATO, which is a rejection of the U.S. position, since 2008, when George W. Bush first advocated it. He said that there will be no NATO security guarantees. That, this basically lays down central elements of what Russia already wants, and that has affected the negotiations, which, by the way, have been more about a ceasefire than a permanent peace settlement. A permanent deal is a long way away.
COLLINS: But what do you make of everything you just laid out there still hasn't resulted in a ceasefire? Why do you think that is?
BOLTON: Because that amounts to surrender for Ukraine. That is -- these are the Russian positions that then give them the basis, after they regroup and rebuild their army, for the third invasion of Ukraine, to finish what Putin and the Kremlin began, back in 2005, announcing it publicly to the world, that they were about recreating the Russian Empire. And that includes, critically, getting control of Ukraine.
[21:25:00]
This Trump approach to Russia, I think, is a critical mistake for the United States. This will be one of the biggest reversals of policy in history. It will have ramifications for American national security, all over the world. And as Trump says, he doesn't really care about it. He just wants to do it to get the war behind him. That's all he really cares about.
COLLINS: What do you make of how it seems he's very frustrated that he's approaching a 100 days in office, and still there is no agreement, nothing?
BOLTON: Well, in part, because he doesn't understand what this war is all about. He has said several times, including in the State of the Union message, he thinks the war is senseless.
For very different reasons, neither the Russians nor the Ukrainians think that. The Ukrainians are fighting for their freedom and independence. The Russians are fighting to expand the Russian Empire. That's a hard position to compromise, whether Trump thinks it's senseless or not.
Anybody who understands this history would appreciate that this is going to be more difficult than Trump and Steve Witkoff think. But if we see these reports turn out to be true -- this, by the way, is Witkoff's fourth meeting with Putin on the subject of Ukraine. Witkoff has apparently been urging that sanctions against Russia, and particularly sanctions against the Nord Stream 2 pipeline, be revoked. This would be a huge further concession to Russia.
COLLINS: Yes, Politico is reporting that tonight. We haven't confirmed that yet.
But as Steve Witkoff is on his way to meet with Putin, on Friday, in and Russia, I want you to listen to what the Vice President said about how ready the U.S. is, basically, to walk away from this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JD VANCE (R), U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: We've issued a very explicit proposal to both the Russians and the Ukrainians, and it's time for them to either say yes, or for the United States to walk away from this process.
And the only way to really stop the killing is for the armies to both put down their weapons, to freeze this thing, and to get on with the business of actually building a better Russia and a better Ukraine.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: If the U.S. does walk away, what do you think that means for relations with Russia from the United States' perspective? Do they try to normalize them after that, and essentially just leave this? Or what could that look like?
BOLTON: Yes, I think they leave Ukraine in the dust. When Vance says, We're giving Russia and Ukraine terms that they should agree to, he's saying, Ukraine should surrender 20 percent of its territory, in response to two acts of unprovoked aggression over the last 10 years.
This is a roadmap for Red China -- sorry, Freudian slip -- for People's Republic of China, to go after Taiwan, to continue to go after the South China Sea, for Russia to take aggression action elsewhere in the territory, the former Soviet Union, and, in fact, the license for rogue states around the world.
This is -- it's not necessarily Trump's view, but I think it is Vance's view. This is a significant American retreat from responsibility for its own national security, globally.
COLLINS: On one other thing. The President said today, No one is asking Ukraine to recognize Crimea as Russia's. That was something that President Zelenskyy had said, earlier, was not going to happen.
But The New York Times does report tonight that European officials, who have seen this proposed agreement say the U.S. would recognize Crimea as that. And The New York Times pointed out that when Secretary of State, Marco Rubio, was a senator, he co-sponsored an amendment to block the U.S. from ever recognizing any Russian claim of sovereignty over parts of Ukraine that it has seized.
BOLTON: Yes, well, Rubio was right the first time.
If we recognize the Russian seizure of the Crimea and the annexation as legal, it would not only be contrary to American national security interest, it would be a mark of shame on the administration, on Trump, on Vance, on everybody in the administration who supported it, and it would be an open license for other countries to take aggressive action.
I don't think people are focused enough, on how the rest of the world will read this. Along with everything else Trump has done, including the tariff war that he's launched against friends and allies, I think people all over America -- all over the world, doubt America's word.
Doubt our extended nuclear deterrent, thus providing an incentive for nuclear proliferation. Doubt our word as an ally, thus fragmenting the alliances further. All of which doesn't benefit the United States. It endangers us in a very complex, very dangerous, increasingly threatening world, and the Trump administration does not get it.
COLLINS: Ambassador John Bolton, thank you for your time tonight.
BOLTON: Thank you.
COLLINS: My next sources here are:
CNN Contributor, and the former CNN Moscow Bureau Chief, Jill Dougherty.
And Washington Post National Security Reporter, Dan Lamothe.
It's great to have you both here.
Jill, you heard what the Ambassador said there. That comes after President Zelenskyy seemed to be addressing what Trump has said today, talking about emotions have run high, to say the least. How do you think Ukraine's seeing all this? JILL DOUGHERTY, ADJUNCT PROFESSOR, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY, CNN CONTRIBUTOR, FORMER CNN MOSCOW BUREAU CHIEF: Well, I mean, on that issue of Crimea, I think it is crucial--
COLLINS: Yes, you were shaking your head, yes, as he was talking.
[21:30:00]
DOUGHERTY: Yes, because, I mean, Crimea -- look, if, number one, Zelenskyy cannot recognize Russia owns Crimea, because it's in the Constitution. And even if they wanted to change the constitution, they would have to have a plebiscite around the country, which now is at war, and people at this very minute, in Kyiv, are in bomb shelters. So that's impossible.
But I think that that point -- when the President said, and I actually hadn't heard that sound bite before, where he said, I don't care? I think that's really significant. Because these things do matter. These details that may seem extraneous, are very, very important. They deal with history. They deal with the security of a country in Europe, et cetera.
So I think, unfortunately, you have to pay attention to details. You can't just have a ceasefire, poof, and everything ends.
COLLINS: Dan, what are you hearing from the Pentagon?
DAN LAMOTHE, NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER, THE WASHINGTON POST: I think we're in a wait-and-see mode with the Pentagon, right? Like, these negotiations are not going well.
There's no sign that there's a deal in the offing here, anytime soon. And it comes at the same time as there's pretty open forecasting of at least some amount of troop withdrawals in Europe for the United States. There's a lot of concern of how many and out of what countries and what kind of shifting around you see.
But the Trump administration has been pretty frank that they want to focus on China first. And that's going to raise a lot of alarms in Europe, particularly as some of these next steps might come.
COLLINS: Yes, well, and those alarms in Europe. I mean, we heard from a European official today, saying that they believe the U.S. is pushing for this deal to -- because they want to get it within the first 100 days. Obviously, the slogan under Biden was, Nothing about Ukraine without Ukraine. Things are very different now.
How much does that timeline affect the negotiations, do you think?
DOUGHERTY: I think for President Trump, it's major. I think the time -- time is ticking away. He seems very focused, in fact, almost exclusively on just getting it done, period, get it off the table.
And for everybody else. Well, let's say Putin has a very long timeframe. If this drags out for a very long time, it's actually good for Putin. He can do a lot of things. He can continue to pressure Zelenskyy. He can pressure -- he can pressure President Trump, to do things, indirectly.
COLLINS: Yes.
DOUGHERTY: And he can wait for the allies to fall apart.
COLLINS: Yes. And speaking of what's happening at the Pentagon, you know, all -- these are major issues that are being decided, potentially, within days. We'll see what happens here.
This comes as there's been a major distraction, facing the Pentagon front office with Secretary Hegseth and the second Signal chat that was recently revealed. You have new reporting today about how that app, which is not a government-authorized app, got on his computer in the first place.
LAMOTHE: Yes. So, I mean, there's reporting out there that he's used this on his personal phone. Tonight, we're also reporting that it was actually installed on a computer in his office. We're not clear on what occasion he used, which device.
But you couldn't bring the phone, typically, into a secure environment, like this Defense Secretary's office. So they basically found an end-around. And it seems like that was, in part, driven by a desire to stay in touch with the White House.
Everything's moving fast, and there were concerns that, particularly when you're away from your desk, at the Pentagon, in a building where there's no cell signal for a good majority of the building, it was causing them all kinds of communications problems.
COLLINS: Wow. That's remarkable.
Dan, great reporting.
Jill, great to have your expertise here tonight as well.
Up next. A WWE at the White House. There is a report tonight, and the White House is not denying it, about a heated shouting match, involving Elon Musk and a Cabinet secretary, as one witness described it as quite a scene that was loud and, quote, And I mean, loud.
[21:35:00]
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COLLINS: Elon Musk says he plans to start pulling back from his government role, starting next month, which might be welcome news for some of the members of the President's Cabinet.
According to a new report, in Axios, tonight, Musk and Treasury Secretary, Scott Bessent, got into a full-blown shouting match, last week, in earshot of the Oval Office.
And a witness tells them that the President, quote, "Saw it, and then they carried it down the hall, and that's when they did it again." Another added that, "It was two billionaire, middle-aged men thinking it was WWE in the hall of the West Wing."
We reported, of course, on a power struggle that happened between the two of them, last week, after the acting IRS Commissioner, who had Elon Musk's backing, was ousted from that role after just about 72 hours.
And today, the White House, when asked about this report, did not deny that Bessent and Musk got into a shouting match.
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KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Look, there are disagreements amongst the President's staff and Cabinet sometimes. But we think that's part of the healthy debate process. And everybody knows that ultimately, President Trump is the decision-maker.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My source tonight is the veteran tech journalist, Kara Swisher.
Kara Swisher, for your thoughts?
[21:40:00]
KARA SWISHER, PODCAST HOST, "ON WITH KARA SWISHER" & "PIVOT", CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Boys will be boys, I think that's the excuse they used, last time, when Musk was fighting with Peter Navarro, and called him a moron, which is not inaccurate, but nonetheless.
This is -- this is a sort of a thing that Musk does a lot. And I think probably many Cabinet secretaries are kind of irritated and sick of him. I've heard from lots of people saying that.
And I think Bessent is just, is not -- doesn't want to be rolled over, and he won't be. He certainly is qualified to be Treasury Secretary. He's a longtime Wall Street titan, essentially. So he doesn't want to get pushed around by Elon Musk.
COLLINS: Well, and neither of them really seem to shout all that much. I mean, we've interviewed Secretary Bessent. He's a relatively quiet demeanor.
SWISHER: Yes.
COLLINS: Elon Musk, obviously, when you hear from his -- well, I mean, it does seem to speak to the tension--
SWISHER: He shouts. I've heard him shout.
COLLINS: --between the two of them.
SWISHER: I've heard him shout. I think he likes to sort of bully people. That's his way. But I'm sure Scott Bessent has, you know, when pushed too far, just decides it's -- he's the Secretary of the Treasury. He doesn't want to be dictated to by Elon Musk, or make decisions, like this. He was, you know, he was -- Congress approved him, and everything else.
And Elon Musk is sort of this unfettered, unelected person that Donald Trump has been putting a lot of trust in.
And he runs the Treasury Department, so he was probably just protecting his turf, and from Wall Street, that's how they -- they also work there.
So I think it's weird for people to be yelling that are this age, that they don't have to -- they get in these fights. It looked like it was a little bit more than that, a little chest-bumping kind of thing. It's juvenile. But of course, the White House likes. If you're running a reality show President, you're going to have a reality show scenes like this.
COLLINS: Yes, certainly some of them who don't like it aren't thrilled with it. But, I mean, I do have to ask what everyone at home is maybe asking themselves, right now, which is when you've heard Elon Musk shout?
SWISHER: It's not great. It's not great. You know, he -- you know, he goes on rants. Well, he's famous for that. He's famous for throwing and knocking over things. And that's his style. He doesn't do it all the time, but I've certainly heard about it. I've seen it myself. And he's like that. He gets his way.
And he's run into, you know, when -- you know what -- he's run into an immovable object, which is Scott Bessent, who wants to run the Treasury Department the way he wants to.
And a lot of the decisions Bessent has been making right now and getting Trump to pull back are the smart ones. He shouldn't have let him do it in the first place, let's be clear. But getting him to pull back and stop with this nonsense of creating this economic -- unnecessary economic turmoil, it probably means a lot to him to decide who's running the IRS. He already was giving Musk a lot of power within the IRS and the Treasury Department, and I guess he was just pushed too far.
COLLINS: Well on Musk overall, saying he's going to start spending a lot less time at the White House, starting in May. We'll see what that actually looks like. I think, there's always got to be a wait-and-see period.
SWISHER: Sure.
COLLINS: But Steve Bannon, on the DOGE effort overall, in this interview with Semafor, said, and I thought this was notable, he said, We need to have a very specific accounting of what he found, as far as fraud goes and waste, and I mean details. He said, quote, "None of this makes sense."
SWISHER: Yes.
COLLINS: And he says he wants to see a letter of certification showing that no one has taken any data from the administration or from the government.
SWISHER: Yes, I'm with -- I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm with Steve Bannon on that.
I think it's going to show he did a lot of hand-waving and not much else. I mean, he obviously was making great -- like he does with everything. He always says, there's going to be a robotaxi, this week. And of course, he hasn't had one, and Google's been operating one for years. I ride in them in San Francisco. He does this all the time in his businesses. This is going to happen next year, next year, next year. And I think he made a lot of -- he over-promised here and under- delivered.
And so, I think Bannon is correct -- oh god, I can't believe I'm saying this. But Bannon is correct. There should be an accounting of what he found and not -- and checked out, because everything that gets checked out, by people like David Fahrenthold from The New York Times, seems to be not real, like it wasn't savings, it wasn't real savings.
And as I said before, the only thing this is kind of proving is that maybe the government is working a little better than it should. It's actually smaller than it was 30 years ago, and there's more people it's serving.
So, I don't know. I think -- I think we need an accounting of it, and we have to make sure the data that he's been bringing together is not -- is not gone off somewhere, is not in within any--
COLLINS: Yes.
SWISHER: --anything he has. And that's going to be difficult, because they let people, including Scott Bessent, they let Musk's troops, run rampant within these systems, without enough security. And that's been warned over and over again by people in the government.
COLLINS: Two times now that you agreed with Steve Bannon, and one with Kirby (ph).
SWISHER: Sorry (ph).
COLLINS: Kara Swisher. A meeting of the minds. Thank you so much for--
SWISHER: Never again. Never again. Yes.
COLLINS: --for joining tonight. Great to have you.
SWISHER: Thanks.
COLLINS: Also, when it comes to Democrats, here in Washington, a real question about passing of the torch. A staple of Senate Democratic leadership just said he is not running again. He wants to make way for a generation of new leaders. What does that mean? What does that look like? We're going to speak to a top congressional Democrat, next.
[21:45:00]
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COLLINS: The number two Democrat in the Senate is leaving, as Illinois senator, Dick Durbin, is now jumpstarting not one but two crowded competitions when he made this announcement today.
[21:50:00]
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SEN. DICK DURBIN (D-IL): The decision of whether to run for re- election has not been easy. I truly love the job of being a United States Senator. But in my heart, I know it's time to pass the torch. So, I'm announcing today that I will not be seeking re-election at the end of my term. The people of Illinois have honored me with this responsibility longer than anyone elected to the Senate in our state's history. I'm truly grateful.
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COLLINS: In Washington, that announcement means that Democrats will now have to decide who takes the leadership position that Senator Durbin has held for two decades. In Illinois, it means a rare open seat in a solidly blue state.
And Senator Durbin's decision is just the latest in a generational shift that we've seen happening in the upper chamber. He's now the fifth sitting senator headed toward retirement all over the age of 65.
My congressional source tonight is himself a veteran of Democratic leadership. South Carolina congressman, James Clyburn.
And it's great to have you here, sir.
Because part of what Senator Durbin said, was that it's time to face reality and make way for someone new. Do you believe he's right, that Democrats do need new leadership?
REP. JAMES CLYBURN (D-SC): Well, thank you very much for having me.
Well, all of these things are relative to the congressional district that you represent, to the state that you represent.
I know Dick Durbin. We served together in the House. And all of us, I think he's younger than I am, but we all age differently. I think I also read somewhere that Jan Schakowsky from Illinois is about to announce her retirement. She too is younger than I am. But we all age differently.
And I think that we all stay in close touch with our constituents. And our constituents and our family members will let us know, when they think it's time for us to go. And so, I'm going to be guided by that, and I'll respond when the time comes. COLLINS: OK. You'll respond when the time comes.
In terms of just this overall, Senator Durbin told my friend, Carl Hulse, at The New York Times, that it was actually a tough call because of who's in the Oval Office right now. He said that, there are times where he worried about missing out on the fight against President Trump.
Is that something that plays a calculus, plays a role in, maybe, your thinking?
CLYBURN: Well, sure. I've been involved in politics over 70 years, 72 to be exact. I first got elected president of my NAACP Youth Council, when I was 12-years-old. I was very active in the incidents that led up to Brown v. Board of Education at the age of 14. John Lewis and I met as college students at the age of 19. And so, I've been involved in this for a long time, and I'm always up for it, and it becomes a part of who and what you are.
And so, you get to the Congress, and you interact with other like- minded people, and then you encounter peoples whose thoughts and whose understandings are a little bit different. And so, you have to take the battle to them. And that's why I've been having town hall meetings.
Last night, I was in Spartanburg, South Carolina, the 4th Congressional District, way outside of my district, and encountering people and taking the fight to my Republican colleagues. And it's something you learn to enjoy doing, and I'm sure that Dick Durbin will miss that. And so, that is something you always put into your calculation.
COLLINS: Well on these town halls, I mean they've been fascinating to watch, and to see what voters are saying. Obviously, there's been a bunch of anger towards Elon Musk and DOGE. But also a lot, towards Democrats who say they -- you know, voters seem to feel that they don't feel like they're doing enough, when it comes to President Trump, or having a cohesive message.
You were quoted recently as saying that you think the message coming from the Democratic Party is a good message. You said, quote, The problem is that we have to depend on the media to deliver it.
Some people might take issue with that, and say, it's incumbent upon the lawmakers themselves to deliver that. What would you say to that, sir?
CLYBURN: Well, sure, I don't disagree with that. But what lawmaker own the airwaves? What lawmaker owns the newspapers?
And when I read that, the ownership of newspapers -- and I just read yesterday, that CBS' "60 Minutes" producer is quitting. Why? Because the ownership seems to be curtailing his ability to produce his shows, and they are capitulating. And so, it's not all media. But a significant portion of the media are in fact capitulated. A significant number of law firms are in fact capitulated. [21:55:00]
We have a one Constitution, and we have a one country to represent. And so, when you decide that you are going to conduct yourself, legally, to the wishes of one autocrat, then you are not doing what I think ought to be done for the American people, and that's -- that happened with some members of the fourth estate.
I used to be in the newspaper business. And so, I know exactly what is expected of us. And then--
COLLINS: Yes.
CLYBURN: --I also know, there are some people, in the business, that's not doing what they ought to do.
My friend, Mr. Montgomery (ph), has resigned from The Washington Post. Eugene Montgomery (ph), I've known him and his family. They're right here in my congressional district. Why is he quitting? Because the owner of that newspaper is capitulating to this outcry (ph).
COLLINS: Congressman James Clyburn, always, thanks for your time tonight.
CLYBURN: Thank you very much for having me.
COLLINS: And thank you so much for joining us.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" is up next, after a quick break.
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