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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
FBI Arrests Wisconsin Judge For Allegedly Obstructing ICE; Trump Says Ukraine & Russia Very Close To A Deal; Trump Pardons Ally Convicted Of Spending Memorial Funds On Plastic Surgery, Rent & Daughter's Wedding. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired April 25, 2025 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: I'll be back in just six hours, along with CNN's Clarissa Ward, and Christopher Lamb, and others, for a special live coverage of Pope Francis' funeral, from here in Saint Peter's Square, in Vatican City, starting at 03:00 a.m., Eastern Time.
That's it for us right now. The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Straight from THE SOURCE tonight.
The FBI arrests and charges a sitting judge accused of obstructing an immigration arrest. What exactly she's accused of, and why the Attorney General is warning others, quote, We will come after you.
Plus, President Trump just told TIME Magazine that he's made 200 tariff deals, but he won't say with whom, and he insists that China's President has called him, though he hasn't said exactly when. The reporter who interviewed him is here tonight.
And she raised money to honor fallen police officers. But then she used it on plastic surgery, rent, and her daughter's wedding. What we know about this person convicted of fraud who just got a pardon from President Trump?
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
Tonight, the White House is defending the arrest of a sitting judge, as Democrats are assailing the move, in what is a major escalation in the battle, here in D.C., over immigration and deportations.
Milwaukee County Circuit Court Judge Hannah Dugan is facing two counts of obstruction for allegedly helping an undocumented immigrant avoid arrest and evade immigration agents, by leaving through a side door. Now, the individual at the center of all of this was in her courthouse for a hearing, after being charged with domestic abuse.
And tonight, amid uproar from Democrats in the state, the Attorney General, Pam Bondi, is defending Judge Dugan's arrest.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAM BONDI, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: Shame on her. It was a domestic violence case of all cases, and she's protecting a criminal defendant over victims of crime.
What has happened to our judiciary is beyond me.
I think some of these judges think they are beyond and above the law. And they are not. And we're sending a very strong message today, if you are harboring a fugitive, we don't care who you are, if you are helping hide one, if you are giving a TDA member guns, anyone who is illegally in this country, we will come after you, and we will prosecute you. We will find you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now when you hear that a sitting state court judge has been arrested, it can be alarming. So we've looked at the charging document here. What exactly happened?
And it lays out a pretty dramatic scene from one week ago tonight, when the judge here, Judge Dugan, was alerted that there were ICE agents in the hallway, as Eduardo Flores-Ruiz was inside her courtroom.
The FBI affidavit says that the judge declared that situation, quote, Absurd, and she went to speak with the ICE agents who were just outside.
Then, quote, "Witnesses uniformly reported that Judge DUGAN was visibly upset and had a confrontational, angry demeanor." And after back and forth over what kind of warrant they had, Judge Dugan demanded that, quote, "Deportation Officer A speak with the Chief Judge" of the courthouse.
Officials say that while the agents went to find the Chief Judge, Dugan went back to her courtroom. That's where Flores-Ruiz, the man at the center of all of this, was seated inside the jury box, rather than in the gallery, which is unusual.
And then the defense counsel for Flores-Ruiz, and the man, walked toward each other and toward the public courtroom exit. That's when the courtroom deputy saw Judge Dugan get up, and heard the judge say something to the effect of, Wait, come with me.
Judge Dugan, then, according to this, escorted Flores-Ruiz and his counsel out of the courtroom through the jury door.
While two of the ICE agents were still speaking with the chief judge, over the phone, in another room in the courthouse, a DEA agent who had stayed outside the courtroom, this whole time, saw him leaving the building. That person alerted the other agents who then approached him outside.
The complaint says then a foot chase ensued, with agents pursuing Flores-Ruiz for the entire length of the courthouse before eventually catching and arresting him.
Cut to one week later, today, when Judge Dugan herself was taken into custody by the FBI.
A statement released on her behalf says the judge has, quote, "Committed herself to the rule of law and the principles of due process for her entire career... Judge Dugan will defend herself vigorously, and looks forward to being exonerated."
Just moments ago, we heard from the FBI Director, Kash Patel, who posted this picture, which we are told by one of his aides is indeed of Judge Dugan here, that says, quote, "No one is above the law."
We're going to start this hour with Wisconsin Democratic congresswoman, Gwen Moore.
And it's great to have you here, Congresswoman.
Just first on how all of this has happened, and how quickly. Have you been in touch with Judge Dugan, or any of her attorneys, about what happened at the courthouse?
REP. GWEN MOORE (D-WI): Thanks for having me.
No, I have not. I'm not in the city.
[21:05:00]
But I can tell you that Judge Dugan is an outstanding jurist. And I too look forward to her defending herself vigorously and being exonerated.
The jurisprudence and the guidance that all of us have subscribed to, and I certainly was helpful in crafting our legislation that indicated that ICE was not supposed to try to attack people in sensitive places. Hospitals, churches and the courtroom. Which was an initiative of mine.
Of course, we want people to come to the courthouse and not fear, when they come to the courthouse that ICE will intervene in proceedings. We want people to get justice, whether they're a victim, or a perpetrator, for domestic violence.
But Judge Dugan, this was her courtroom. She certainly is not required to cooperate with ICE. And our guidance, and what we have been telling people is that they do not have to cooperate with ICE. They do not have to -- that local officials, our police department, our sheriff's department, our judicial system, we are not required to assist ICE. And this was her courtroom, and she made--
COLLINS: Yes.
MOORE: --the decision that she -- yes, right.
COLLINS: But it's not just assisting. I think, obviously, what is at the center of this, when you read the charging document, is that not only was she not assisting ICE, she was interfering with the immigration agents who were standing outside her courthouse, or her courtroom, which was, they said, was a public space in the hallway.
And as you know, President Trump rescinded that order, and now, ICE can go into schools, hospitals and courthouses, if they -- if they so choose.
And so, I guess, the question, when you -- when you look at this is, do you believe she was interfering in the arrest of this man?
MOORE: I don't -- I don't have the ability to say whether she was or not. I do know that she has the authority of her courtroom, and that she will have her day in court.
But I do know that Pam Bondi, it was just about getting (ph), the Attorney General, when she arrested Judge Dugan, because I think that there was more value in intimidating the judiciary, in continuing the assault on our judiciary, and pushing the envelope and the edges of what's constitutional and what separation of powers to its -- to its edges.
I do know that the only thing that has prevented us from falling into a constitutional crisis has been our judiciary. And Bondi's assertion today, and her arrest of Judge Dugan, was a signal to the judiciary that, You had better stay out of our way, because this authoritarian regime is going to continue doing what it's doing.
COLLINS: But can I--
MOORE: I just want to say one thing.
COLLINS: Can I ask you--
MOORE: This all happened on Good -- yes.
COLLINS: Go ahead. Finish your thought.
MOORE: This was -- this all happened on Good Friday. And I would say, as John Lewis, the late John Lewis, would say, I'm glad that she got in good trouble on Good Friday.
COLLINS: But can I ask you, because you just referred to the White House as an authoritarian regime. We've heard a lot of Democrats criticize the White House over that, say, President Trump needs to abide by the law. But doesn't that apply to everyone here? Shouldn't Judge Dugan here also be abiding by the law, which she's accused of not doing?
MOORE: Well, no one is above the law. But I think that the law is mutable, in the case of the White House.
Again, I want to reassert that we had come to some sort of agreement in this country, that there were sensitive places, where ICE would not operate, you know? And so sort of -- to sort of dice and splice, about whether or not she should have, could have, would have, ought to have left it out at an outside door, and whether or not that was interference or cooperation, I think those are things that are going to be litigated.
But the point is, is that jurists ought to be able to have control of their courtroom, and localities should not be pressured into executing and assisting ICE.
COLLINS: Yes. But if they -- if the ICE agents--
MOORE: And I think that that's the bigger question.
COLLINS: I just want to drill down on this, because I do think this is important in terms of, if the ICE agents were waiting outside of the courtroom, in a public area, where they had told a bailiff, according to this document, that they were out there, and they were waiting for the court hearing to be done, then they were going to execute on that arrest. And the judge finds out about that and interferes with that.
I mean, if they can prove that she did this, do you believe she committed a crime here?
[21:10:00]
MOORE: Well, you know what? This is not fair to ask me that question, because she has not had her day in court yet, to litigate and to defend herself vigorously, which I think she will do.
What you're asking me to do is to -- you're asking me to sort of -- of not go along with what I believe is. Because I think that ICE ought to operate, and they ought to do it, clearly, outside of her -- you know, not outside her courtroom, and maybe on the street. Where they arrested him, on the street, was the appropriate place. They should not even have been in the courthouse, as far as I'm concerned.
COLLINS: Congresswoman--
MOORE: And so, to say that, they can arrest you in the cafeteria of the hospital, but not in your hospital room, this is slicing and dicing it, in such a way, where the Justice Department is determined to intimidate the judiciary, and I think that we need to fight back.
COLLINS: Congresswoman Gwen Moore, thank you for your time tonight. We'll see what happens here.
MOORE: Thank you.
COLLINS: I've also got my legal sources here.
The former Deputy Assistant Attorney General, Tom Dupree.
And the former Justice Department pardon attorney, Liz Oyer, here.
And Tom, when you look at this, I think, taking the politics out of this, because obviously that is the lens through which some people are viewing this. This has been an ongoing conversation, here in Washington, all day. If the judge did what she's accused of here, do you believe she committed a crime? TOM DUPREE, FORMER DEPUTY ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL: Yes, I kind of think -- I think if the government can prove what they allege in the complaint, that does strike me as crossing the line.
They've charged her with two offenses. One is obstruction of an official proceeding, the other is concealing or harboring some fugitive.
And I think that what they allege here is that this is a judge who, rightly or wrongly, made the decision to help this guy evade execution of a lawful warrant, where, as far as I know, ICE had the right to go in and serve the warrant and take him into custody. He's accused of domestic abuse. He's here present unlawfully.
I'm not quite sure what ICE is accused of doing wrong. I mean, the Congresswoman is mistaken if she thinks that they didn't have the authority to go in the courthouse, and get him. Under current law, I think they did have the right to do that.
So, again, I'm hard-pressed to see exactly what justification the judge would have, for doing what she is at least accused of doing. Obviously, they have to prove it. We'll see what the evidence shows. But I'd be interested to hear what she thinks she was doing, and why it wasn't wrong.
COLLINS: So, even if the arrest is justified, I'm curious or -- the just arrest in and of itself, I'm curious if how it was carried out is normal. Is this typically the process that you would see, including with the FBI Director tonight, tweeting like he is?
LIZ OYER, FORMER DOJ PARDON ATTORNEY, FIRED DOJ PARDON ATTORNEY: Well, Kaitlan, I want to start by saying, I respectfully don't agree with Tom that it's so clear-cut that if the judge did what she's accused of, then she has committed a crime.
I want to note that there is a very good reason why we don't typically see arrests taking place in a courthouse. What the Representative said is that it does have a chilling effect on deterring people from coming to court, which makes our communities less safe. So, it seems clear that there was a legitimate reason why this judge was upset, when these immigration agents showed up in her courtroom to arrest someone.
COLLINS: Yes, but Trump rescinded that--
OYER: I want to note--
COLLINS: --that policy.
OYER: Well, I want to note that this is -- this is a problem that's -- that is supported by data, especially in domestic violence cases. The Attorney General expressed a lot of righteous indignation, feigned indignation, about the fact that this is a domestic violence case.
The data shows that domestic violence is underreported massively in immigrant communities, because there is fear of immigration authorities swooping in and arresting people. So, it has a real chilling effect on women, who may have a spouse who is not lawfully in the country, in reporting instances of domestic violence, if their spouse can be arrested in court.
COLLINS: Yes.
OYER: I also want to note that the charge that was brought -- there are two charges. One is a misdemeanor. One is a felony. The felony charge refers to a statute that talks about obstructing a pending proceeding. And there's not a pending immigration proceeding in this case. So it's unclear whether that felony charge is even supportable.
COLLINS: Yes, well, we'll see what they say.
But in terms of this, and also, I should note the people, the accusers here of domestic abuse, according to the document, were sitting inside the courtroom when all of this happened.
But the judge went up to them, according to the charging document, which is quite fascinating, and asked the agents if they had an administrative warrant or a judicial warrant.
What is the difference in that? They had an administrative one, not a judicial one. What is the difference in the two of those?
DUPREE: Well, legally, I'm not sure that there is a difference. In other words, I think they had the right to execute either.
Administrative warrant is a warrant that would be issued from an agency, presumably, in this case, it would be ICE, or one of the executive branch agencies. A judicial warrant is one that's issued by the court.
I suspect that the judge was going in under the assumption that it would be OK for them to serve a judicial warrant, but not an administrative warrant. I think she's mistaken about that.
[21:15:00]
But from my perspective, I guess, what bugs me is that she clearly knew that the ICE agents were there, and then she took fairly extraordinary measures to get this guy out of her courtroom, through kind of a non-public entrance, hustle him down the hall, and ensure his escape from the courtroom, which, as you reported, led to an actual foot chase, outside the courtroom, so they could apprehend him. I mean, that doesn't strike me as kind of proper judicial behavior, to say the least.
COLLINS: Yes. We'll continue to follow this.
Tom Dupree. Liz Oyer. Stick around, coming back.
Meanwhile, President Trump's envoy is in Russia, right now, just sat down with President Putin. And we just got our first readout. And now the President himself, who has just landed in Rome, for the Pope's funeral, is suggesting maybe it is time for President Putin and President Zelenskyy to meet. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, President Trump and the first lady have landed in Rome ahead of Pope Francis' funeral. You can see them here descending the steps of Air Force One.
[21:20:00]
During his short trip in Italy, the President's foreign envoy, Steve Witkoff, is in Russia, meanwhile, where he sat down today with Russian President, Vladimir Putin, in Moscow.
And following that, the President posted on Truth Social tonight, that it was, quote, A good day of talks, and he said optimistically, that Russia and Ukraine are, quote, "Very close to a deal, and the two sides should now meet, at very high levels," to "finish it off."
Now, Zelenskyy, for his part, has said that he is going to try to travel to the Vatican for the Pope's funeral if he can make it in time, after attending a number of war-related meetings.
My sources tonight are:
Philip Shenon, who is a former New York Times investigative reporter, and the Author of "Jesus Wept: Seven Popes and the Battle for the Soul of the Catholic Church."
As well as CNN's former Moscow Bureau Chief, Jill Dougherty.
And Jill, it's great to have you here.
Because looking at the President's post here. He says not only that they should finish it off. He says, Most of the major points are agreed to, and says, We will be wherever is necessary to help facilitate the end to this cruel and senseless war.
That seems like quite a surprising update in about 24 hours from where we were just last night.
JILL DOUGHERTY, ADJUNCT PROFESSOR, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY, CNN FORMER MOSCOW BUREAU CHIEF: Well, I think there's a bit of give on both sides -- excuse me.
I have noticed there have been some reports coming out now about Zelenskyy being a little less clear about what he would or wouldn't go for.
And sometimes, obfuscation helps in these things, because they're very, very precise. So if you're not that precise, you might be able to get to some type of deal that sounds good enough to get a ceasefire. But ultimately, I think it is the security issue, long- term, that's going to be the decider. Does this work or not?
COLLINS: Do you think President Zelenskyy would actually be willing to sit down with President Putin right now? DOUGHERTY: I think probably yes, because I think ultimately this does have to be decided with some type of negotiations and peace. And Zelenskyy has been excoriated by President Trump for not being willing to do something. So if he were to talk with Vladimir Putin, that would be pretty major, and it would be a big sign that he is willing.
COLLINS: And we're closing in on 100 days of Trump's presidency in the second term. He had said time and time again, when he was on the campaign trail, that he wanted to get this war done in one day. 24 hours. He said it many times.
And when he was asked about this in a new interview, with TIME Magazine, and we're going to talk to the person who interviewed him in just a few moments, the President said, Well, I said that figuratively, and I said that as an exaggeration, because to make a point, and you know, it gets, of course, by the fake news... Obviously, people know that when I said that, it was said in jest.
DOUGHERTY: Well, I've seen that video a million times. It didn't look like a jest to me.
COLLINS: Can we actually show that video?
DOUGHERTY: Yes. That would be great.
COLLINS: I'm glad you brought that up.
DOUGHERTY: That would be great.
COLLINS: Let me play that for a moment.
DOUGHERTY: Yes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: It will take me no longer than one day.
(APPLAUSE)
TRUMP: I'll have that done in 24 hours. I'll have it done.
I will have the horrible war between Russia and Ukraine settled. It will be done within 24 hours.
(APPLAUSE)
TRUMP: Before I even arrive at the Oval Office, shortly after I win the presidency, I will have the horrible war between Russia and Ukraine settled.
(APPLAUSE)
TRUMP: Shortly after I win the presidency, I will have the horrible war between Russia and Ukraine settled, and we'll do it quickly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOUGHERTY: Well, that sounds like he was going to solve it immediately.
But that's the problem. I mean, this is a president who wrote the book, "The Art of the Deal." So he may well have believed that he could just kind of bring them together, do a deal the way he had done real estate deals or whatever. And it's not that way. This is a very different deal.
COLLINS: He did have a ghostwriter for that book who is very outspoken.
DOUGHERTY: Oh.
COLLINS: Just to note. His name, of course, is on it, and he does style himself after that.
Philip, since you're here. As we're looking at this funeral that is just going to -- going to get kicked off in just a few hours from now. President Trump is on the ground for a very brief moment of time. He actually doesn't have a ton of staff traveling with him, based on what we're told, because they only allot so many tickets into the Pope's funeral.
President Zelenskyy, though, is attempting to get to Rome in time for that.
We were looking back on Pope Francis' last message on Easter, where he had a call for ending this war, which would just -- you know, just to think of that moment, and to think of Zelenskyy and Trump both being in the Vatican for this funeral is quite something.
PHILIP SHENON, AUTHOR, "JESUS WEPT": And I think Zelenskyy has suggested he'd like to meet with Trump, during the -- during the period of the funeral, to have discussion about potential for peace.
I think this is going to be quite an interesting and awkward funeral for a lot of world leaders. You're going to have Trump and Zelenskyy. You're going to have lots of European leaders, who are at odds with the President. I think the next 24 hours in Rome are going to be pretty interesting.
[21:25:00]
COLLINS: Can we talk about what we're going to see in just a few hours, and what this is going to look like, in terms of there are so many dignitaries and VIPs who will be on hand for this. We know President Biden, obviously, one of the most famous Catholics, will be there in attendance as well.
How does the seating for the Pope's funeral work?
SHENON: Well, it's going to be a bit awkward, because apparently there are going to be certain dignitaries who are on the front row, including the President of Argentina, the President of Italy. And President Trump and Melania Trump will apparently be in the third row, and I'm not sure how President Trump will feel about that.
COLLINS: What else are you going to be looking for, just in this moment, and as we're watching something that obviously so many people have not seen in quite some time?
SHENON: Well, it's going to be full of the pageantry of a grand Vatican tradition, a papal funeral.
It's going to be interesting to see how this one is carried out however, because Pope Francis requested a much simpler funeral than his predecessors. And he's also asked that he not be buried in the Grottoes of St. Peter's Basilica. He'll be buried at a basilica that's in the center of Rome near the train station. And I think there are many Catholics who believe that the Francis' decision to be buried outside Vatican City will perhaps create a shrine that will be a rival to the -- to St. Peter's in some ways.
COLLINS: I can't wait to watch it, and just see all of that.
Philip Shenon, thank you so much for your time.
Jill Dougherty, your expertise as well.
Also tonight. That TIME interview that I was talking about, it was incredibly quotable. In it, the President said he has made 200 trade deals. There are not even 200 countries in the world. Our White House insiders are here to break down everything the President said, and the highlights of that interview.
[21:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, President Trump says he's made more trade deals than there are countries in the world. It was in a wide-ranging interview, with TIME Magazine, where the President said that he has made deals with dozens of nations, after he announced a 90-day pause on his massive, sweeping tariffs, to allow for negotiations to take place.
Asked about the status of those talks, the President said, and I'm quoting him now, "You have to understand, I'm dealing with all the companies, very friendly countries. We're meeting with China. We're doing fine with everybody. But ultimately, I've made all the deals."
TIME Magazine asked, Not one has been announced yet. When are you going to announce them?
The President said, I've made 200 deals.
TIME: You've made 200 deals?
Trump: 100 percent.
The White House, of course, has not formally announced any new trade deals. They previewed some with South Korea. But let alone 200 of them. And given there are just under 200 countries in the world, that would effectively mean the President has negotiated deals with almost every country on the planet.
The White House has also been pretty cagey when it comes to one of the largest and trickiest negotiations, with China. It's been hard for us to nail down exactly whether or not the President has spoken directly with the Chinese leader, Xi Jinping. And TIME asked about that too.
Will you call President Xi if he doesn't answer -- well -- if he doesn't call you?
No.
You won't?
Nope.
Has he called you yet?
Yep.
When did he call you?
He's called.
Yet the White House has not provided any readout showing that the two leaders have spoken.
My deeply-sourced White House insiders are here tonight.
Bloomberg News' Josh Wingrove.
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution's Tia Mitchell.
And the man who sat across from President Trump for the TIME Magazine interview, Eric Cortellessa.
And it's great to have you here.
What stood out to you? I'll just start there. This is quite a comprehensive interview.
ERIC CORTELLESSA, SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, TIME, CONDUCTED TIME INTERVIEW WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP: Yes, no, it was very interesting.
I think what really stood out to me was how different Trump seemed, from the last two times I spoke to him last year, where he was kind of in a triumphant setting, either coming off, having clinched the Republican nomination, seeming like he was in a good position to beat Joe Biden, or having won the election, and we interviewed him for Time Person of the Year.
Now, he's under siege in some ways. He's faced with the challenges of governing. And so, he was a little more evasive, a little more cantankerous. But he's also as aggressive and assertive as he was throughout the campaign.
COLLINS: That's really interesting. You found him to be more emboldened to a degree one year ago than he was, now that he's in office.
CORTELLESSA: I think he was more unencumbered a year ago. I think he was a little more liberated a year ago.
When I spoke to him in November, at Mar-a-Lago, shortly after the election, he seemed like the volume was toned down. I mean, he was super-confident. He was super-vindicated.
He's still confident. But obviously, right now, he's got a lot of challenges to his -- the power that he's trying to both amass and execute, now that he's in office.
COLLINS: Yes, and he's hit -- reaching that 100-day mark.
Obviously, the key question has been, has he spoken to the Chinese president. We have not really gotten a clear answer. Including tonight, on Air Force One, on the way to Rome, reporters were trying to nail that down.
It obviously matters a lot, if those high-level discussions have happened on such a sensitive topic, like these 145 percent tariffs that are in place.
JOSH WINGROVE, WHITE HOUSE REPORTER, BLOOMBERG NEWS: Yes, and we should note, the Chinese are denying that that has taken place. Of course, who's to say.
Typically, though, the way that our colleagues in Asia would tell you that this would go is Xi likes to be the one to clinch the deal, not start the talks. Trump likes to be sort of in the mix from the beginning. So, there is an impasse here. In other words, Xi wants to start from the bottom and work up to him.
[21:35:00]
And so, we -- it seems like they haven't talked at all candidly. But the White House is claiming vaguely that Trump has spoken with him at some point. You can maybe deduce something in there.
But I think, right now, one of the interesting things, I thought, from the interview -- I thought it was great -- great job, by the way -- was the talk about tariffs.
And you asked him, Hey, if we still have tariffs of 20 percent, 30 percent, or 50 percent a year from now, how will you view that? And Trump said, Total victory.
I think that is a signal to people. Remember those China tariffs are at 145 combined, right now. All signs are those are going to come down sort of one way or another in the -- you know, at some point.
But he still has those 10 percent baseline tariffs. Those could snap up again to high numbers, up to 50 percent. He's got sectoral tariffs, 25 percent, on a lot of things. So, tariffs are here. They're here to stay. And I think he's really doubling down.
The tariff stuff in this interview was--
COLLINS: Yes.
WINGROVE: --was compelling.
COLLINS: Yes. Fascinating to see what Wall Street thinks of that. I'm sure they don't view it as a total victory.
WINGROVE: No.
COLLINS: But you also asked about the Kilmar Abrego Garcia case. And on this front, the President was asked about this, the agreement with El Salvador and President Bukele there, to send detained migrants in the United States there. Obviously, a lot have been gone since the Senator -- a lot of court battles.
You -- Eric asked, How much are we paying President Bukele for holding them?
And Trump said, quote, "I don't know. I could get you the information, but we're paying less than we would normally."
Asked if he personally approved those payments. He said, "No, I didn't."
And he also kept deferring to his attorneys, when it came to facilitating the return of Abrego Garcia, which I thought was quite notable--
TIA MITCHELL, WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF, THE ATLANTA JOURNAL- CONSTITUTION: Yes.
COLLINS: --given how defiant he was to me in the Oval Office, about a week and a half ago.
MITCHELL: Yes, I think it's interesting, because, again, the courts are the only place where there have kind of been guardrails put on the administration, and we know the courts have given kind of very specific directives when it comes to further deportations to El Salvador, as well as particularly about Abrego Garcia.
And I think he's at least concerned, I think. I think they've been trying to walk a fine line between not outright saying, We are defying court orders. We are just not going to do what the courts have told us to do.
They've made excuses for why they've done what they've done. But they've stopped short of saying, We are defying the courts. And I think that's what he's still trying to do, is not outright cross the line. Of course, there are plenty of people that are saying, It's already there. But he hasn't quite come out and said, We are defying court orders.
COLLINS: Yes, what did you take of how he was talking -- answering those questions, in terms of fully answering them? Or was he pretty deferential to the attorneys? CORTELLESSA: Oh--
COLLINS: How did you read it?
CORTELLESSA: I read it as if this was an answer his attorneys had told him to give if he was ever asked on this subject. It seems like it would strain credulity that he didn't ask President Bukele of El Salvador, or he couldn't ask President Bukele. And if he did ask him, that President Bukele wouldn't listen to him, wouldn't honor his request. Remember, they're a client state of the United States. Trump has all the power.
I also think he's kind of getting around the matter of the ruling by saying, Well, our lawyers actually interpret the ruling differently. President Trump told me he did not believe that the Supreme Court ordered him to bring back Kilmar Abrego Garcia.
I then read from the ruling, saying that--
COLLINS: Yes.
CORTELLESSA: --the order requires you to facilitate his return. Are you facilitating his return? Have you asked President Bukele? Well, if you haven't asked President Bukele, how are you facilitating his return?
So, there's a lot of sort of linguistic and legal acrobatics going on, to kind of get around this issue.
COLLINS: Yes.
CORTELLESSA: So they don't say that he's defying the court order.
COLLINS: I want to ask you about my favorite moment of the interview.
But Josh, quickly on Canada, the President said repeatedly -- you said, maybe he's trolling when he was talking about taking over Canada as the 51st state, and he cut in to go, I'm really not trolling.
WINGROVE: Yes, your interview might have swung a couple seats in this election, by the way, that's coming up here.
He has been continually talking, as you know, Kaitlan, about Canada, and the pressure on it. This has been a core issue in the election campaign. That vote coming up, of course, in just a few days, has really helped--
COLLINS: Yes.
WINGROVE: --revive the fortunes of the Liberal Party, which was last -- led by Justin Trudeau, now by Mark Carney. And so this will make a lot of news in my home country of Canada right now for that.
But I think, right now, the question in that election is, who can stand up to Donald Trump? And both the conservative and the liberal there, who are of the two leading candidates, really jockeying to frame how they can be the one to do that.
COLLINS: Yes, and Trump brings up President Biden a lot during his 100 -- nearly 100 days.
There was a moment where he was talking about Biden, and saying that he would never do an interview because he was grossly incompetent.
Y'all told him, We spoke to him last year, actually, Mr. President.
He said, Huh?
We spoke to him a year ago.
The President responded, How did he do?
Y'all said, You can read the interview yourself.
And the President said, Not too good. I did read the interview. He didn't do well.
Do you think he had read the interview?
CORTELLESSA: It's possible. Don't know. My colleagues, our Editor-in- Chief, Sam Jacobs, and Massimo Calabresi, interviewed Biden about a year ago for a cover story. I think President Trump did speak a bit more at length with us than President Biden did. But that was a funny moment.
[21:40:00]
And one thing that you just can't miss, when you talk to Trump, these days, is how much the Biden comparison, and the sort of preoccupation with Biden is ever present. He always reverts back to that. He's always comparing things. When he shows you around the Oval Office is, I don't think Biden would do that, would he? So it's always there.
COLLINS: Yes, and there was a side-by-side of the last time that he had done TIME Magazine, and this time, which I thought -- or from 2015 to 2025 which I thought was, was really interesting.
What did you make of that answer?
MITCHELL: Again, like you said, it's like Biden is still on his mind. I think part of it is because, when he was campaigning for president, there was that contrast, and he convinced the American people that he would be a better president than Joe Biden.
I think in some ways that's still part of his pitch to the American people, is that, I'm better than Joe Biden. I'm doing things that Joe Biden wouldn't do. And in some ways, he is. We know he is way more accessible to the media as one example--
CORTELLESSA: Absolutely.
MITCHELL: --of the contrast between him and President Biden. But also, Biden is long gone now. We're well into the Trump administration. And I don't think that's resonating as much with voters anymore, this contrast with Joe Biden. They're looking at, You are the president now, what are you doing? And is it good or bad for the American people?
COLLINS: Yes.
WINGROVE: And some of the things that he was most defensive about or itchy about are things that are -- the polls are showing he's losing ground on, immigration, tariffs.
COLLINS: Yes, it's a good point.
And a great interview. So thanks for doing it and for joining us tonight.
CORTELLESSA: Thank you.
COLLINS: Thanks to all of you.
Up next here. President Trump just pardoned a woman who said she was raising money to honor fallen officers. What did she use it for? Let me tell you. Not that. My legal sources are here, next.
[21:45:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: A White House official has confirmed to CNN tonight, that President Trump has pardoned a Nevada lawmaker, found guilty of fraud charges, after she took money that was meant for memorial, honoring two slain police officers, and instead spent it on herself. At trial, prosecutors said that Michele Fiore used that money for cosmetic surgery, rent and even on her daughter's wedding.
The former Las Vegas councilwoman responded by saying that she is, quote, Deeply and eternally grateful to President Trump for granting her this pardon.
She's well-known in Nevada Republican politics. And she once has gotten awards on this. She also previously campaigned on the trail for President Trump.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHELE FIORE, JUSTICE OF THE PEACE OF NYE COUNTY: Do you want to know what my license plate is, from the DMV, on that Ford pickup truck?
AUDIENCE: Yes.
FIORE: It's Trump 47.
(CHEERING)
(END VIDEO CLIP) COLLINS: My legal sources are back with me now.
Liz, you were the pardon attorney at the Justice Department, until recently. I guess that moment maybe makes clear why she was ultimately pardoned here, given her clear support for the President. But what do you make of this, given what she was accused of?
OYER: Kaitlan, it seems like pardons have become completely transactional. The President is using them to reward people who show political loyalty. He is using them to grant them to people who have the resources to lobby him and curry favor. They have become gifts to wealthy people who can afford that access.
And for me, this feels a little bit personal, because I spent three years as pardon attorney, really trying to ensure that the process was accessible to ordinary Americans, to people who are serving overly lengthy, outdated sentences, to people who have demonstrated real rehabilitation and contributions to their community. And those people are being completely overlooked in this process. There is no path forward for them to receive clemency.
There are hundreds of people who have been recommended by the Office of the Pardon Attorney, who are just being ignored in favor of friends of the President.
COLLINS: Well, and obviously, the President has the right to pardon whomever he wants. Any president does. President Biden pardoned a lot of people that many of his allies wished he had not, on his way out the door, including family members.
But I think what stands out about this is that what the woman is -- what she was convicted of, which was fraud, because she raised money for the memorial for slain police officers. And obviously, this is a president who has prided himself publicly on having the backs of police officers.
DUPREE: Yes, it's hard to see the law enforcement community really being jazzed up about this pardon.
And look, the Constitution gives the President, as you say, pretty broad authority to issue pardons. The Constitution doesn't require the president to explain his reason for the pardons.
That said, I do think it would behoove the President, I think it would behoove the White House, to explain the rationale for the pardon, just so people understand why he chose to exercise his clemency power in this way with this particular individual.
COLLINS: And can I ask about some other breaking news tonight? We were just talking about immigration at the top of the hour, in terms of the escalation we're seeing in Milwaukee, with a district court judge has been arrested there.
This is separate. But a federal judge tonight is asking for answers from the administration over whether or not a 2-year-old U.S. citizen who has a birth certificate, she was born, I believe, in New Orleans, was deported, in the judge's words, with no meaningful process.
She was deported with her mother. And Politico is reporting that the mom informed ICE officials she wanted to take her daughter with her to Honduras, but the father was apparently fighting that, and the judge seems to have a lot of questions about this.
OYER: Yes, so this is an example of why we need due process. Due process means a proceeding in advance of a deportation, in which all of the facts are hashed out.
[21:50:00]
There should have been a process by which the parents could determine what should be the fate of this child, if their parent were being lawfully deported. But when you do the deportations first, and ask questions later, that opportunity is denied, which is not how our justice system is supposed to work.
COLLINS: What do you make of this case?
DUPREE: What I think is particularly interesting is that the judge who issued this order is a very conservative judge from Louisiana. He's a Trump appointee. In fact, his opinion referred to the Gulf of America. So he's kind of clearly on board with Trump. And yet--
COLLINS: That sounds so (ph).
DUPREE: And yet, he is saying, to Liz's point, he's saying we need to kick the tires a little bit here. We have to make sure that this child, this 2-year-old American, was not wrongfully deported. So he's calling all the lawyers, the government officials back in, in a couple weeks, to explain what happened, make sure that this did, in fact, happen with the mother's consent.
But it's interesting that even conservative Trump judges are saying, We've got to make sure the rules are followed here.
COLLINS: Yes, that's obviously something to stay on top of.
But switching to another legal topic before I lose both of you tonight, George Santos, who we know is convicted and found guilty, he was sentenced today to seven years, a little more than that, for his aggravated identity theft and wire fraud charges. What did you make of that sentencing?
OYER: That's a really significant sentence, Kaitlan.
This is a fraud that by the scale of federal crimes, it's not the biggest, it's not the most sophisticated. So, I think what the length of the sentence, which is seven years and change, shows, is the importance that this -- the federal sentencing guidelines and federal judges place on the integrity of public officials.
This really reflects the fact that the court's taking this very seriously because of the way his fraud helped him to get into office, and effectively defrauded the constituents that he served. DUPREE: This was a serious sentence.
COLLINS: Win stupid games -- Play stupid games, win stupid prizes? I don't know, like.
DUPREE: Exactly. Look, this is -- this is a serious offense, serious charges. The punishment was at the higher end of the scale. And in my view, justice was served. I think kind of Santos is something that I think all Americans can unite around, just the level of misconduct, the need for severe punishment, and it was served in this case.
COLLINS: But how is he going to make his Cameo videos?
DUPREE: I don't know. He was offering them at a significant discount this week.
COLLINS: Yes.
DUPREE: Before he had to start serving his sentence.
COLLINS: Does it send a message to other lawmakers, who are watching this incredibly -- I mean, between this and the Menendez conviction, recently, in the sentence there, I mean, obviously quite significant.
OYER: Yes, it does seem like one constant across administrations, is that that level of corruption on the part of a public official is not tolerated.
But I will say, on the other hand, you've got the president pardoning public officials who engage in corruption. So, we'll see if these convictions stick.
COLLINS: Well, and he is talking about getting a pardon from Trump. He said, The President knows my predicament. It's not like it's a secret. If the President, he told The Times, thinks I'm worthy of any level of clemency that is bestowed upon him, he can go ahead and do it, but for me to seek a pardon is to deny accountability and responsibility.
DUPREE: I don't think he realistically expects pardon. I don't think he's going to get one. We'll see what happens. But I think even Santos recognizes that for Trump, a pardon for Santos may be a bridge too far.
OYER: We shall see.
Tom Dupree. Liz Oyer. Great to have you both.
Up next for us here, a new look at Eva Longoria's new show, debuting right here on CNN, where she explores what you need to know, and hopefully you are, traveling to Spain.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're on Carrer Parlament. If you ask anyone here in Barcelona what is Parlament all about, they'll tell you vermouth.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:55:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: In the new CNN Original Series, "SEARCHING FOR SPAIN," Eva Longoria travels across Spain, exploring how it's dominating the world's culinary scene, while also showcasing cultures and history across different regions.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do you think is that chicharron?
EVA LONGORIA, AMERICAN ACTRESS AND FILM PRODUCER (on camera): Shiitake mushroom.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a duck tongue.
LONGORIA (on camera): Duck tongue? I didn't even know ducks had tongues.
(LAUGHTER)
LONGORIA (on camera): Hello.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Eva Longoria.
LONGORIA (on camera): (FOREIGN LANGUAGE).
Hola.
LONGORIA (voice-over): A 11 generations ago, one of my ancestors left Spain for the new world and a new life. 400 years later, I'm back.
LONGORIA (on camera): I'm so excited.
LONGORIA (voice-over): To see how the land and its people have created one of the world's most exciting cuisines.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have an important question.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you hungry?
LONGORIA (on camera): I'm hungry.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Perfect.
LONGORIA (on camera): Wow.
You can taste the land, the grass, what they eat.
Look at that guy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ooh.
LONGORIA (on camera): Oh, yes.
LONGORIA (on camera): Food makes me so happy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
LONGORIA (on camera): Is it supposed to be eaten in one bite?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
LONGORIA (on camera): Oh, she's a pincho expert.
I get to visit long-lost family.
Hola familia.
(FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
(APPLAUSE)
LONGORIA (on camera): If you can preserve your food and your recipes, then you can teach the rest of the world who you are.
This is so beautiful. Salud to that.
(MUSIC)
LONGORIA (on camera): This is cuisine at a different level.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is the best place to be a chef.
LONGORIA (on camera): Oh, my God. We have found Spain.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: Be sure to tune in to watch all that, and more. The all-new CNN Original Series, "EVA LONGORIA: SEARCHING FOR SPAIN," premieres this Sunday, 09:00 p.m., Eastern and Pacific, only here on CNN.
Before we go, a reminder that our special coverage of Pope Francis' funeral will begin at 03:00 a.m., Eastern. That special coverage will continue throughout the morning, as Anderson Cooper is on the ground, in Rome, with all of our experts.
[22:00:00]
As you will see world leaders and dignitaries all gathered there, including President Trump and, the first lady, Melania Trump. And potentially, also including President Zelenskyy. Something that the world will be watching, not just for the Pope Francis' funeral, but for those moments, also as well.
Thank you so much for joining us.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" is up next.
