Return to Transcripts main page
The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Trump Says It's "OK" If Tariffs Lead To Short-Term Recession; Vance: "Trump Is The Leader Of The Democratic Party"; NPR, PBS Vow To Fight Trump's "Unlawful" Order To Cut Funding. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired May 02, 2025 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Ruth Buzzi had a big laugh and even bigger smile, hardly a big ego though. She once said, I never took my work for granted, nor assumed I deserved more of the credit or spotlight or more pay than anyone else. I was just thrilled to drive down the hill to NBC every day as an employed actor with a job to do.
She did that job remarkably well. Ruth Buzzi was 88-years-old.
That's it for us. The news continues. Hope you have a great weekend. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now. I'll see you, Monday.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Straight from THE SOURCE tonight.
President Trump was just asked if a short-term recession would justify his long-term trade goals. How will the markets respond to this answer, after good news on the jobs market front sent them surging today.
Plus, a federal judge has just permanently blocked the President from targeting a law firm, calling his action, Shakespearean, and reminiscent of the phrase, The first thing we do, kill all the lawyers.
And PBS and NPR are gearing up to fight the President over his order to cut their federal funding. They say, it is blatantly unlawful. PBS icon, Bill Nye, the Science Guy, is here to respond.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
On a rare day of good news for the U.S. economy, President Trump may have just stepped on it when he said this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KRISTEN WELKER, MODERATOR, "MEET THE PRESS," NBC NEWS: Are you comfortable with the country potentially dipping into a recession for a period of time if you are able to achieve your long-term goals.
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Well, you know, you say, Some people on Wall Street say -- well, I tell you something else. Some people on Wall Street say that we're going to have the greatest economy in history. Why don't you talk about them? Because some people on Wall Street say, this is the greatest windfall ever happened.
WELKER: Well, that's what I'm getting at. That's what I'm getting at, though.
TRUMP: There are many -- there are many people--
WELKER: It's the same question.
TRUMP: Yes. There are many people--
WELKER: Yes.
TRUMP: --on Wall Street say this is going to be the greatest windfall ever happened.
WELKER: And that's my question.
TRUMP: Remember this--
WELKER: The long-term.
TRUMP: Yes.
WELKER: Is it OK in the short-term--
TRUMP: If you look at this--
WELKER: --to have a recession?
TRUMP: Look, uh, yes. It's -- everything's OK. What we are, I said this is a transition period. I think we're going to do fantastically.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now, that interview clip was released after the markets closed tonight. You have to wonder how they might react after rallying, earlier today, thanks to the good news that more Americans got a new job last month than experts were expecting. Meaning, in this world of serious economic uncertainty, the job market is holding steady for now.
The markets, which President Trump said earlier this week are President Biden's, when they were down, ended on a positive note with the S&P 500 actually in the midst of its longest winning streak in more than two decades, after all that decline.
Now that may have to do with this subtle but still notable shift from China, where officials currently say that they are assessing whether to begin trade talks with the President's team. That, despite the White House insisting those talks are already ongoing. They're not exactly on the same page there. But that alone is enough to move the markets these days.
And despite the actual good news that we're seeing on the economy, the President keeps making up numbers about gas prices, as he did last night when he was speaking to graduates at the University of Alabama.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Gasoline prices just hit $1.88 a gallon in three states. Can you believe it? It was at $3.50.
(CHEERING)
(APPLAUSE)
TRUMP: It was at $4 -- we're drilling, oh, we're drilling. You know, Drill, baby, drill, right? We Drill, baby, drill. We do that. We got it down. We have it going good.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: That number went up $0.10 this morning, when the President posted gasoline just broke $1.98 a gallon, the lowest in years. Neither of those are accurate, and prices aren't close to $1.88 or $1.98 in any state, as drivers across the country are well-aware of.
Actually, we checked. And according to AAA, the national average right now is about $3.18 a gallon. Mississippi has the lowest. But even there, drivers are still paying about $2.66.
My lead source tonight is The New York Times' Maggie Haberman.
And Maggie, on that comment the President made in this interview that he did with "Meet the Press," do you think he is as unconcerned about the prospect of a recession as a result of his trade policies, as he seemed to be there?
MAGGIE HABERMAN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, THE NEW YORK TIMES: No, I don't. But I think that that is the front that he is putting on. They did get good news today in terms of the jobs front. Yes, the market numbers rebounded somewhat.
You are correct that he keeps saying things about prices that just don't comport with reality. It was actually interesting, I was looking at a similar Truth Social post that he did, his social media website, where he said, Prices are falling and everything is very, very low now. And a bunch of replies which are normally very praising of him, over the top praising, were saying, essentially, Not where I live, Not where I live, Not where I live.
So there is actually a limit to how much he can keep saying that and have his own voters believe him. But he, right now, seems to believe himself.
COLLINS: That's actually really interesting, because I have a Truth Social account to obviously monitor what the President says. But people who get Truth Social account typically are--
HABERMAN: Correct.
COLLINS: --supporters of the President's. [21:05:00]
HABERMAN: I had never seen pushback on something he was saying before. And there were still some praise in response. But there were a number of comments of people saying, That's not happening where I am.
COLLINS: Well and the President, as his policies start to seem to be clashing with what people are spending and buying, even cheap, fast fashion from overseas. One of the things they've gotten rid of is essentially this loophole, that if you bought under a certain amount from overseas, places like China, that you didn't have to pay tariffs. They have now gotten rid of that, anything under $800.
This is what the President said about this earlier this week.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: It's very important. De minimis, it's very -- it's a big deal. It's a big scam going on against our country, against, really, small businesses. And we've ended it. We've put an end to it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: The thing is, and the reality of that is, if you shop at Temu, or Shein, or any of these sites that are incredibly popular in the United States, the prices are changing as a result of this. And they're saying on some -- in some cases, that that is the case. Does the White House assert -- are they taking that into account?
HABERMAN: They are, and they're aware of it. But again, there is no clear endgame here. They want to de-escalate with China. That's very clear. That's very clear in everything you see. The President keeps saying, I've spoken to President Xi Jinping. Just doesn't say when he spoke to him. And there's no end -- China is denying that that happened.
But there is -- they are worried. There are people within the White House who are worried about this. You would not have seen the reaction about the report about Amazon doing something similar, as aggressively as you saw the President respond and Karoline Leavitt respond, if they weren't worried. But again, they're all kind of stuck right now, until there is an off-ramp. And there isn't one right now.
COLLINS: I do think that's important for people to know what it is like inside the White House, in terms of, there is real concern over not just China, but where these trade negotiations stand overall.
HABERMAN: Right.
COLLINS: And getting some kind of progress, some kind of movement. Nothing still has been announced.
HABERMAN: Right.
COLLINS: They do have time (ph), as they will point out. They say the President is this master deal-maker. But there is a real sense of concern inside the West Wing.
HABERMAN: Yes, and because, again, there is no -- first of all, they never really laid out what exactly the endgame was here. Because there is this pause in place, the President has left open the idea of extending the pause.
As you say, there are no deals announced. And even when they do announce, when and if they announce deals, and they keep saying, India is soon, or this one's soon, and it hasn't been announced, it's now been two -- more than two weeks. It will just be a framework for a deal. Actual trade deals take months, and, in some cases, years. So what this ends up looking like for consumers remains to be seen, and is very much in flux.
COLLINS: But do you expect them to tout any topline agreement as an actual trade deal?
HABERMAN: Yes, I do.
COLLINS: Yes.
HABERMAN: We'll see. Again, we are still -- this is all hypothetical, because they keep saying, This is coming, India is coming, Japan is coming, We're having some kind of discussions offline with China.
China -- I don't know if what China is saying is true, either.
But either way, whatever comes, whatever version of a deal they get, they will tout that as something substantive, regardless of whether it is.
COLLINS: Yes, they said yesterday one would be announced by the end of the day.
HABERMAN: Right.
COLLINS: That has come and gone. Nothing was announced.
HABERMAN: Right.
COLLINS: The Prime Minister -- the new Prime Minister of Canada, will be at the White House, on Tuesday, which is going to be a moment in and of itself for everyone to watch.
HABERMAN: Indeed.
COLLINS: Given the frustration with the Canadians, over Trump saying he's not joking about making them a 51st state.
But trade is a huge subject with them as well. And I want you to listen to what the new Prime Minister said about those negotiations.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARK CARNEY, CANADIAN PRIME MINISTER: I go there with the expectation of constructive, difficult, but constructive discussions. That's the spirit of the conversations that the President and I had. You know, you go to these meetings well-prepared, understanding the objectives of your counterpart, and always acting in the best interests of Canada, and we'll go from there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: He said, go in as best prepared as you can.
But every world leader goes in meeting with Trump, not really knowing what is going to happen in those meetings.
HABERMAN: No, although they do have some sense of what sort of the extreme is, which is, say, a Zelenskyy moment with Donald Trump in the Oval Office. And then--
COLLINS: Yes, I think that's set the bar now.
HABERMAN: Right. Or then -- and then -- or a Netanyahu moment in the Oval Office, right? And there are -- there -- it's a spectrum.
I think that many world leaders talk to each other, they talk to their top aides, they talk to diplomats in the U.S., about how best to approach Donald Trump.
The Prime Minister is going into this in a specific way, because the Prime Minister was elected in part as a backlash to what Donald Trump is saying, which means that he is not in a position where the Conservative leader would have been, had he won, which is sort of dependent on Trump, and Trump would have treated him as an appendage. This is a rejection of Trump. And so, we'll see what that looks like in a conversation.
COLLINS: Yes. But has Trump to thank still, given he--
HABERMAN: Sure.
COLLINS: --helped fuel that.
HABERMAN: And Trump seems strangely kind of proud of that, because it still puts him at the center one way or the other.
COLLINS: Yes. And he likes world leaders -- I mean, his relationships with world leaders are so fascinating, in terms of how they interact and, you know, the French leader.
[21:10:00]
But all of this is going on as, the change, the first major shakeup this week in the staffing. We had not seen a major change since Trump took office, this term. His National Security Advisor is out, going to be nominated to be the Ambassador to the United Nations, here in New York. Obviously, essentially, basically Siberia compared to the West Wing, if you're that far away, you don't have proximity to the President.
What do you make of Secretary of State, Marco Rubio, taking over that role on an interim basis?
HABERMAN: So that was something that had been suggested as a possibility many weeks ago, among other options that they were looking at when it seemed as if Mike Waltz was going to leave, right after Signalgate.
I think it's worth noting, Kaitlan, I know you know this, Mike Waltz has been basically in jeopardy in his job since before the inauguration. I mean, this has always been seen as a strange fit. There were a lot of people who didn't like how he was interacting with other members of the team. They thought that he saw himself as a principal, as opposed to more of a staffer. And ideologically, they thought that he was just not the best fit.
Marco Rubio has done everything he has been asked to do. There is -- there is obviously a model for this, the Kissinger model in the past, where he simultaneously wore both hats. Marco Rubio is not coming into this with his own well-defined view of foreign policy that he is going to try to put on Donald Trump, I don't think. I think he is going to just try to just try to channel Donald Trump, and I think that will be a difference.
COLLINS: Well, and it's fascinating, because of how the envoys that Trump has given, really--
HABERMAN: Yes.
COLLINS: --free reign to operate as they will, have been operating as shadow Secretaries of State, in some instances.
HABERMAN: Correct.
COLLINS: One thing that we did -- that the army did confirm today is they are going to be holding a massive military parade, on Trump's birthday. And in terms of what that looks like, and this is something I think that it's important for people to know, he has wanted for years.
HABERMAN: He's wanted since he took office. I mean, I think my memory is that they were done -- correct me if I'm misremembering, but I believe that there was talk about doing this for his inauguration, the first time, what he wanted.
And he was told that that couldn't work, for all of the reasons there were concerns about at this time, which is among the fact that -- the reasons that this just isn't typically done in the U.S. It's also really heavy on Washington, D.C. streets.
But he is, as we have seen, over the course of the last several months, he has been getting what he wants more often than not. Not always with the courts. But certainly in terms of what he is just going to plow through, in terms of norms.
COLLINS: Yes, they were worried it would like, it would literally crack Pennsylvania Avenue.
HABERMAN: Correct.
COLLINS: The streets just could not sustain, like a tank rolling through them.
HABERMAN: Right. And I think the Mayor of D.C. had said, Let's see what the money looks like to try to repair the streets afterwards.
COLLINS: Maggie Haberman, New York Times' White House correspondent, great to have you. Thank you for that reporting tonight.
HABERMAN: Thanks, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: We also have some breaking news as a federal judge tonight has just permanently blocked the President's executive order that targeted a law firm, which represented Hillary Clinton in 2016.
The judge's ruling tonight that the President's order was an unconstitutional effort to a amass power, and the ruling from Judge Beryl Howell is scathing, because it says this, and I'm quoting now, "In purpose and effect, this action draws from a playbook as old as Shakespeare, who penned the phrase: 'The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.'"
She goes on to write, "When Shakespeare's character, a rebel leader intent on becoming king hears this suggestion, he promptly incorporates this tactic as part of his plan to assume power."
My legal source tonight is former federal prosecutor, and friend of the show, Elie Honig.
I'm pretty sure you have also quoted this on the show before. Am I right?
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY, SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NY: Yes, no, I like that quote. I dug into the CliffsNotes. It's from Henry the Sixth, the character that says it is.
COLLINS: You like that quote?
HONIG: Yes, I think it's interesting, because it doesn't mean--
COLLINS: Because you're a lawyer, so you.
HONIG: Right. Well but it doesn't mean, Hey, let's throw Elie Honig in the river and all his friends. It means, If you want to take over, if you want to be autocratic, if you want a lawless society? Get those pesky lawyers out of the way. So I think it's applicable here.
COLLINS: Some people might say that anyway.
HONIG: Could be.
COLLINS: Really though, in terms of what this ruling means.
HONIG: Yes. COLLINS: We have been watching this fight with the courts and Trump all along. To say that they're permanently blocking this. I mean, what does that mean for other law firms that are -- that are fighting Trump.
HONIG: I want to make a public service announcement. Every law firm that fights this in court will win.
These executive orders, and I don't mean to be overly dramatic here, these executive orders are wildly, patently over-the-top, illegal. They violate the First Amendment right to free speech. They violate the First Amendment right to free association, because they punish people at law firms around these people, Trump has singled out. They punish clients. They violate the right to counsel that people have, right of counsel of their choosing.
It is no surprise this judge struck this down. And I think other law firms who are finding themselves in this dilemma should take a lesson from this.
COLLINS: But I was thinking, my first thought today was, what does this mean for law firms that already settled with Trump--
HONIG: Yes.
COLLINS: --and agreed to do one cajillion hours of pro bono for him, and also his aides made money in the process of brokering it--
HONIG: They--
COLLINS: --outside the White House.
HONIG: Right. They -- the firms that have bent the knee here and entered into these quote-unquote settlements, what I would call, shakedown agreements, they probably are and should be feeling some buyers' remorse now.
And the thing about these deals these firms have struck is they have no guarantee that they'll be protected from here on out. I mean, extortionists do not stop when you pay them the first time.
What's to stop Donald Trump from saying, Now I want more pro bono hours from you. Now I want more concessions about your personnel.
[21:15:00]
So there's an interesting, really rift happening here within the big law firm community, where some are digging in and fighting, and others are giving in. And there's actually a lot of tension and disagreement there.
COLLINS: Well, and Harvard is one of the institutions that is fighting back against the President. We heard from the President, who told The Wall Street Journal earlier and said -- but after the President posted this morning that he is taking away Harvard's tax-exempt status--
HONIG: Right.
COLLINS: --that it is decided.
The White House is trying to argue that's not an official IRS move. I don't know what that -- where that puts the IRS in the middle of all this.
HONIG: Yes. So there is a law, a criminal law, that says, the President and certain other high-ranking executive officials may not request that the IRS open any investigation. Period. It's a criminal law. It's a five-year max.
COLLINS: Which came about because of Nixon.
HONIG: Right, exactly. And unfortunately, now we are in an era -- look, I'm not going to sort of glibly say, Oh the President needs to be arrested or anything like that.
But we are now in an era, when you see something like this happen, and you immediately know what's going to happen next out of DOJ, which is nothing. They're not going to look at it. They're not going to open an investigation. And that's just the reality of what they are.
And there's, I've read some reporting that, well, maybe the IRS opening up these investigations is coincidental. I mean, I don't buy that for a second. Trump is out there tweeting about it, I'm going to strip their tax-exempt status. Flagrantly violating the rule. And next thing, you know IRS is on it.
COLLINS: Well, and they just named the new acting IRS commissioner as well.
HONIG: Yes. Fifth one.
COLLINS: There was a whole -- whole fight over that.
But the President of Harvard said, told The Journal, "If the government goes through with a plan to revoke our tax-exempt status, it would be highly illegal unless there is some reasoning that we have not been exposed to that would justify this dramatic move."
HONIG: Yes.
COLLINS: I mean, is it possible, though, that they find something that they use as the -- as the justification here?
HONIG: I don't think so, because the way that an organization or a college loses its tax-exempt status is if they're engaged in political or commercial activity, too much of it, right?
And Trump's argument is, Well, Harvard is extremely liberal. Student body leans left.
That's true. I mean, disclosure, I went there from law school. I'm not just saying it to say. I have to say it. But it is a liberal-leaning place. That's not the equivalent of engaging in political activity. Every student body in the country leans one way or another, most of them lean left. But that doesn't mean colleges are engaged in political activity.
He's conflating. Is there an ideology that prevails on campus with actual political activity, things like paying for campaign ads, active canvassing, using the school's resources. So, I think this effort will fail in court as well.
COLLINS: Elie Honig, we will see.
HONIG: Very opinionated tonight.
COLLINS: You?
HONIG: Yes.
COLLINS: I mean, I think that's pretty much every night. But anyway, we love to have you.
HONIG: Thanks.
COLLINS: Up next here for us. The President just unveiled his plan for cutting government programs. Even Republicans are mad about this.
[21:20:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: President Trump revealed today that he'd like to see massive and, frankly, unprecedented funding cuts across the federal government that would axe domestic spending to its lowest level in the modern era.
In one of the few spending increases, in the President's spending wishlist that he's sending to Congress, he would raise the Pentagon's budget to a trillion dollars, basically resulting in a 13 percent increase.
He called for a $163 billion in cuts that target education, housing, health, climate and safety net programs. That includes slashing the CDC's budget by $5 billion, and also taking nearly $18 billion out of the NIH programs that are focused on research.
The President also wants $26 billion cut by eliminating the government's rental assistance program, and also asking to eliminate another program that helps Americans pay their heating bills.
There's also a $12 billion cut to the federal -- to the Department of Education, of course, the department that the President has essentially vowed to dismantle and get rid of entirely.
Now, I said, if enacted, because Congress by no means has to follow what the President has designed here. This is essentially a request to lawmakers, and it may not happen, especially if you listen to what some Republicans are saying, and certainly if you're listening to Democrats. My congressional source tonight is the Democratic congresswoman, Jasmine Crockett, of Texas.
And it's great to have you here.
I just wonder what you make of how this is playing out among Republicans.
Because Speaker Mike Johnson endorsed this. He praised it.
But we heard from several Republicans who said they didn't like it. Senator Roger Wicker said that the President's advisers were apparently not listening, because of the depending on spending. Senator Mitch McConnell said it was material neglect. Susan Collins called it late, and expressed concern over those cuts as well.
What do you think is going to happen here?
REP. JASMINE CROCKETT (D-TX): Listen, I have no idea. Unfortunately, I don't feel like we're living at a time in which these representatives, whether they're senators or House members, are listening to their constituents. If you listen to your constituents, then you will hear pain, and that pain is spread across the political spectrum. Whether you're a Democrat, Republican, or Independent, the cuts that you talked about, they are going to impact everyone.
And it's interesting, as we are going through reconciliation, we had a reconciliation markup in Oversight as well as Judiciary, so I had a very long night on Wednesday. And to listen to them, the things that they were not willing to say that they were OK with cutting, or the things that they were willing to cut, right? It's absolutely insane.
And I have to tell you that the House Budget Democrats have made sure that we have every single district listed out, with the amount of people that will be impacted by the Medicaid cuts, with the amount of people that will be impacted by the SNAP cuts.
[21:25:00]
But you even went a lot deeper there. And here's the reality. You say that he wants there to be a portion of the budget that goes up to a trillion dollars, on the Defense side. And when we look at Defense, you know who can't pass a clean budget or a clean audit? It's Defense. They have failed the very last seven audits. So why would they continue to get raises, which they always do. Yet we're going to hurt the most vulnerable amongst us?
COLLINS: Yes, and they're saying that it's targeted. It's for certain programs of the Pentagon. It wouldn't just be to boost overall spending. But I still think it's a good question, in terms of what that looks like.
But do you think the President will get what he wants here from Republicans? I mean, what is your sense of watching your colleagues, across the aisle? CROCKETT: It seems like they do whatever he wants them to do, at all times, right? Like, behind closed doors, they will talk about how these things are crazy.
You can find plenty of Republicans that will tell you that these tariffs are a problem. They will tell you that, and they know that it's a problem. This is why they don't want to go out, and listen to their constituents, by having town halls. This is exactly why, if you tune in and watch any of these hearings, when it comes down to marking up these bills, where these cuts are supposed to be, you know who won't even defend them? The Republicans.
We sat in hours and hours and hours of -- in listening to amendments, as we were going through the markups. And every time, we started calling out specific Republicans, and said, Congressman such and such, what do you think? And they literally were silent. It was almost like they were told, Don't say anything, because we can't win. We just have to vote down these commonsense amendments and get through this, because this is what we've been told to do.
COLLINS: Well, and on the Pentagon spending part, part of this is -- the wishlist includes the Golden Dome, which is basically this--
CROCKETT: Yes.
COLLINS: --this new missile defense shield.
CROCKETT: Yes.
COLLINS: New space missions to Mars, and also to the moon.
The question is, who would benefit from that. And based on the person who has massive federal contracts for that right now, is Elon Musk.
I do wonder, though, given the backlash that some Republicans have seen at town halls, and Democrats who are accused by some constituents of not doing enough to push back against Elon Musk, if you -- what you make of that, and whether or not that will be in the final spending bill here.
CROCKETT: I mean, it's all about making sure that he and his friends are happy. That's it. So, yes, absolutely, I can see that -- you know, we've talked about this Gold Dome situation and Elon. I don't know that I'll see that in there. I'll be perfectly honest. I don't know. I think that they may say, This is where we kind of draw the line.
There was an increase even under President Biden for Defense as well, and that came as a part of a negotiation to raise the debt ceiling, the last time. They said, Well, when we get to the budget, you've got to make sure that you do this increase.
But here's the bigger issue. We can talk about the specifics of cuts and where there's going to be increases. The real issues are this, is that when you start to cut, regardless of if you think it's a handout, or whatever you think it is, this impacts all of us, even if you are not the person that, say, is on Medicaid. When you have to show up to that hospital? Or when you have to go see your doctor? Or when your children are have to -- having to go to school with other children that aren't getting their health care?
COLLINS: Yes.
CROCKETT: Listen, we learned this in the pandemic, that you can't just say, Oh, well, I have enough money, so I can escape this. You can't. This is going to impact those of us that aren't the one-percenters.
COLLINS: Well, and obviously we're seeing disagreement, among Republicans.
Democrats also are not agreeing, that no one seems to be able to strike the balance on where you're going, what's the best way to respond to President Trump.
Vice President JD Vance was asked tonight who he believes is leading the Democratic Party. And I want you to listen to his answer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRET BAIER, FOX NEWS HOST: Do you think Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, AOC, is the new leader?
JD VANCE (R), U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: Oh, again, I don't know.
BAIER: Could it be Vance-AOC in 2028?
VANCE: President AOC, the stuff of nightmares, Bret, thank you. You've ruined my sleep for this evening.
BAIER: Who is the leader of the Democratic Party?
VANCE: I don't know. Honestly, I think--
BAIER: Do you think about it?
VANCE: I think to the extent the Democrats have a leader, Donald J. Trump is the leader of the Democratic Party.
BAIER: Because they're against him on everything.
VANCE: Because they're just against everything that he does.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CROCKETT: Oh.
COLLINS: Is Trump leading the Democratic Party?
CROCKETT: Under no circumstances.
And I think that he absolutely, in fact, you know, he had my name in his mouth here recently. No, listen, that is not true. But I do think that one of our problems right now is that everybody's like, Who is our leader? And I keep trying to tell people that you are waiting on somebody to come and save you, but your savior is you. It is the people.
The most -- you know, as we listen to the Vice President speak, or -- Vice President Kamala Harris, let me just say that. As we listen to her speak on Wednesday, one of the things that she talked about being inspired by was the people.
And that is what I'm trying to do, is I'm trying to make sure that, listen, no matter how you associate politically, this is about us. And right now, Trump has made it about him and his rich billionaire friends.
COLLINS: So, if you were asked who the leader of the Democratic Party is, you would not say, Any elected official. You would say, The voters.
CROCKETT: I would absolutely say, the people. I would.
COLLINS: Speaking of leadership and what that looks like. There was sad news in the House, this week, when your colleague, Gerry Connolly, announced that his cancer has returned.
CROCKETT: Yes.
COLLINS: He's going to be stepping away from his role as the lead Democrat on House Oversight.
CROCKETT: Yes.
COLLINS: That's a key position. Are you interested in taking that position?
[21:30:00]
CROCKETT: Yes, listen, I first must say that we have all benefited from the service of Gerry Connolly for 30 years. And I hate to hear it. But I am the Vice Ranker on the Oversight Committee. And if given an opportunity to lead, I am ready to go, on day one.
COLLINS: And so you are throwing your hat in the ring for that?
CROCKETT: If there is an election. He's not resigned his post. But we know that he's not seeking reelection. So, it may be next term before that post opens.
COLLINS: Why do you think that you would be the best Democrat to take that position?
CROCKETT: Because I think--
COLLINS: Which is essentially to fight the President and his agenda.
CROCKETT: Exactly. It is. Listen, Oversight has so much latitude. But beyond that, we are allowed to conduct investigations. We are allowed to send out subpoenas and get documents. And here's the deal. My legal experience, I think, helps me be able to kind of guide through that part.
But one thing we've always done really well as Democrats is get down and do the work. But we've got to communicate what it is that we were able to get in that work and translate it.
And so, I think that I can not only do the work but make sure that people understand, This is why we're having these problems at the FDA. This is why we're having these problems at the VA. This is why we have planes that are falling out of the sky.
It is to do the investigation, find out about these firings, and how they are impacting us. The information that this administration wants to hide from the American people, I want to make sure I can shine a light on it.
COLLINS: Congresswoman Jasmine Crockett, thank you for your time tonight. Great to have you here on set.
CROCKETT: Thank you. Good to see you.
COLLINS: Up next here for us. President Trump has threatened to strip federal funding from NPR and PBS. Does he have the authority to do so? These organizations don't think so.
PBS' staple, Bill Nye, the Science Guy, is joining me next.
[21:35:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, NPR and PBS are vowing a legal fight with President Trump, after he issued an executive order instructing the Corporation for Public Broadcasting to defund the organizations. They're arguing, he can't do that.
His order claims that America's two biggest public broadcasters should not get the more than $500 million in taxpayer funds to public radio and TV stations nationwide, because he argues they don't present, quote, "A fair, accurate, or unbiased portrayal of current events."
Despite the President's order, the CPB is a private entity, and it was created that way, by Congress, to insulate it from political pressure.
NPR tonight says it's going to challenge this order.
And the Chief Executive over at PBS said this, and I'm quoting her now. "The president's blatantly unlawful executive order, issued in the middle of the night, threatens our ability to serve the American public with educational programming, as we have" done "for the past 50-plus years."
All of this comes as the President's newly-proposed budget, that we were just talking about with the Congresswoman, would cut more than $6 billion from NASA, as it moves the agency's focus away from space science to primarily getting astronauts to the moon and to Mars.
My source tonight is Bill Nye, who we all know from PBS, as Bill Nye, the Science Guy, and also the CEO of The Planetary Society.
And it's great to have you back here, sir.
Because obviously, you've reached countless people, through PBS, over the years, fostering a love and an understanding, for some of us, of science. I wonder what you make of this news tonight?
BILL NYE, SCIENCE EDUCATOR, CEO, THE PLANETARY SOCIETY: Well, it's not good news for us for -- it will be in -- in modern terms, it will be unpopular. Unpopular.
And so, you'll find that -- they'll find that a great many small communities rely on public broadcasting, for weather information, for evacuation information and so on. And then everybody who's a parent, has raised their kids, using public broadcasting children's programming. There's nothing like it.
And that's why the organization was created, the system was created, and that's why people are going to push back against this. The citizens will. This will be very unpopular with members of Congress and the Senate. They will push back.
And this is another executive order that was made for reasons that aren't entirely clear. But it will not -- people won't -- I don't think, will stand for it.
And the legal -- the legal issue, will go on, I guess, for a long time.
COLLINS: I mean I'm sure--
NYE: So.
COLLINS: You, personally, must have interacted and encountered so many people, over the years--
NYE: Yes.
COLLINS: --who have talked about how beneficial that was to them, or to their kids, or to their families.
NYE: Well, it says, it's not millions or tens of millions. It's hundreds of millions of people watch the Science Guy show. Thank you all. Put my heart and soul into that thing.
And this is elementary science that is, for many people that I have spoken with, is sort of the main, the main science they got in middle and often high school. And so the reason we made that show, and the reason the show was made at that education level, is it was based on very, very compelling research, back in the 20th Century, about what people needed to get this fundamental understanding of science. [21:40:00]
And what -- you know, everything happens for a reason, Kaitlan. And that reason, it's usually physics. So, if you want to have -- if you want to have this advanced military capability, this, for example, this Golden Dome, you're going to need people in the pipeline to come be engineers, and physicists, scientists, to build these -- this extraordinary system. And those people are going to get their love of science from public broadcasting. So this is--
COLLINS: Yes.
NYE: --this is very well documented and so on. This is not in the national interest.
COLLINS: Well and just--
NYE: And it will be unpopular.
COLLINS: In terms of how you did that, and how you accomplished that, which I do, think some people may say, I don't remember what I learned in the sixth grade, but I remember what I learned watching Bill Nye, and he did it in a way that I could remember it and understand it, and it was actually enjoyable.
I just want to take people back for a moment, and remind them of some of what that was like.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NYE: Imagining distances in space is difficult because everything is so far apart. But think of it this way. Let's say that this miniature soccer ball is the size of our Sun, and it's right on the goal of a soccer field.
How far do you think it is to the next star? Well, it's not in here.
(MUSIC)
NYE: It would be here. The nearest star would be here, seven hours of highway driving, about 700 kilometers away.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I mean, you watch that, everyone loves that, and they just -- you know, gets an understanding of it.
But I wonder, given what we just talked about with NPR and PBS. Also cutting the NASA budget by 24 percent, which is his goal. Doesn't mean it's going to happen, but that's what they want to do. And also moving it, to prioritizing sending people to the moon and to Mars.
What is your -- what do you make of that?
NYE: Well, it's very troubling, you know? So, The Planetary Society was started by Carl Sagan, a visionary who realized that public interest in space exploration is very high. And government support of it was not back in 1980. And so that turns out it's true again today.
Now everybody, objectively, I have very competent staff at The Planetary, along with 42,000 members around the world. We have very competent staff who have analyzed the NASA budget, over the last five decades.
We have spent about $23 billion to study the planet Mars, get rocks sample, geologists are into rock samples, from exactly the right place on Mars, to learn the most what we think about where there was water and whether signs of life. The current administration is planning to abandon that, to abandon that program. That's just a fantastic waste of tax dollars. That's, if I may, ripping us off.
Furthermore, Mars is just one example. We have a mission on the way to Europa, the moon of Jupiter, twice as much ocean water as Earth. We have missions on the way to moons of Saturn, to a moon of Saturn. Everybody, this is in no one's best interest.
Furthermore, NASA is the best brand the United States has. By abandoning funding for NASA, at this extraordinary level? Right now, NASA Science cut is 25 percent. That's the biggest cut since the Apollo. I was alive for the Apollo era, when President Nixon was concerned that somebody is going to die in the moon exploration, so they turned it off. And this cut's even bigger than that. And the cut to NASA Science, 47 percent.
COLLINS: Yes.
NYE: That's one report. 48 percent. Would be a so-called extinction- level event for NASA Science. This is in no one's best interest. And even, even Tom Cole from Oklahoma, very conservative guy, is very concerned about this.
And I think the people on the other side are going to have a great deal of difficult -- what is the -- what is the most untrustworthy person on earth, for people on the other side? Yes, an unelected government bureaucrat. Well, apparently it's a guy at the Office of Management and Budget, Russ Vought, who is behind all this. And so, we'll see how long Congress and Senate -- members of Congress and Senate put up with this.
COLLINS: Yes. And of course, the Senate just confirmed him to that position, Senate Republicans.
Bill Nye, no one better to talk about this with than you. Thank you for joining us on a Friday night.
NYE: Thanks, you guys. Thanks for including us. Let's work together and make the world better for everyone.
COLLINS: Great to have you.
NYE: Thank you, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: Thank you so much.
Up next. I don't know how you can top Bill Nye, but we're going to see if Donie O'Sullivan can do it. He's here, next.
[21:45:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, the Justice Department has reached a settlement with the family of Ashli Babbitt, who was shot and killed during the January 6th Capitol attack.
While the terms of the settlement aren't known, hasn't formally been signed, we're told, we do know that her family was seeking $30 million from the government, in their initial lawsuit. They claim that the police officer from Capitol Hill who shot her had failed to de- escalate and didn't warn her before he fired, as she was trying to break into the Speaker's Lobby over the -- near the House chamber.
That officer, Lieutenant Michael Byrd, has been cleared of any criminal wrongdoing.
But of course, the questions over the settlement and what happens next remain.
[21:50:00]
My source tonight is CNN's Donie O'Sullivan, who was at the Capitol on January 6th, and has since interviewed Ashli Babbitt's family.
I know you spoke to her mom. I just wonder, based on that conversation, how this has shaken out, how her family is viewing a moment like this.
DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: Yes, and look, a lot of Americans who don't think every day about January 6 certainly don't hear the name Ashli Babbitt every day, might not even remember the details of her case and her dying at the Capitol.
Ashli Babbitt has really become an icon within the MAGA movement, within the sort of January 6 Pardon movement. And her mom, Micki, spends hundreds of nights outside the D.C. jail. She was part of the vigil that was held outside the jail to get people pardoned.
For her, she wanted to reopen investigations into that officer. As you mentioned, he was cleared of any wrongdoing. We'll have to see what else comes up in this settlement. But very much looking for justice.
So having spoken to her, doesn't sound like they can comment at the moment on the settlement. But certainly know that this will mean a lot.
And really, if you just think about what a big turnaround all of this is. From 12 months ago--
COLLINS: Yes.
O'SULLIVAN: --this was a case-closed-type scenario. Obviously, the J6ers in the prison and jails across the country, now, they're all released, and we have a case like this.
COLLINS: Yes. And obviously, you have been covering this, but also just this world. I mean, this is the reason, you know what a prominent name she is. And if you go to Trump rally, obviously they all know who Ashli Babbitt is. But in terms of just all of this, you have this new podcast, Persuadable. I love the name.
O'SULLIVAN: Persuadable
COLLINS: And you talk about, essentially the people that you've talked to, people who were there that day, people who have embraced conspiracy theories. And you had a psychiatrist on.
O'SULLIVAN: Yes. So in this--
COLLINS: Not for yourself, though.
O'SULLIVAN: No. I need a team of psychiatrists. So one won't do.
But in this show, speaking a lot of times to people who are deep down rabbit holes, every time I do one of these stories, for years now, people reach out and say, Look, I have somebody in my life who maybe isn't all the way full in QAnon or whatever, but they're there, and I'm worried about them.
And I want you to take a look at this clip from the psychologist, as you mentioned.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oftentimes, the agenda is, how can I talk them out of this crazy belief? And if you start from that perspective, you know, then you're -- then you're done. Because we're all, I think, kind of primed to defend our beliefs, and particularly when those beliefs become integrated or fused with our identities.
Because when that happens, and this is true, oftentimes of religious beliefs or ideological beliefs, or in some cases, like with QAnon conspiracy theory beliefs, if I'm going to concede, oh my gosh, I'm wrong, you know, what does that mean? It means that not only is my belief wrong, but because it's become fused with my identity, I'm sort of fundamentally wrong.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'SULLIVAN: So yes, you can listen to the podcast, everywhere you get your podcasts, and hopefully helping some people to get out of rabbit holes, or helping loved ones who have people in rabbit holes, get out.
COLLINS: Persuadable. I can't wait to listen to it.
O'SULLIVAN: Thank you.
COLLINS: Donie O'Sullivan, you're very persuadable. Thank you for being here.
O'SULLIVAN: Up next, we have a busy and behind-the-scenes look at an eventful week at the White House. You don't want to miss this.
[21:55:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: It was quite a newsy week in Washington, as President Trump marked 100 days in office. Here's what we witnessed behind-the-scenes while reporting at the White House.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Happy first 100 days.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome the Super Bowl LII champions, the Philadelphia Eagles.
(CHEERING)
COLLINS: Should we do our Eagles video from right here in the shade?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I like that.
(APPLAUSE)
TRUMP: Thank you very much, everybody. It's an honor.
COLLINS: There's a lot of players who are here, including the star, Saquon Barkley. There is one player who is missing, though. That is the MVP of the team, Jalen Hurts, a University of Alabama alum.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He said everything with the Washington monument (ph) for the 100 days.
COLLINS: Right here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes? OK.
COLLINS: Donald Trump has now been in office for 100 days. And as someone who covered both his first term and now his second, one of the biggest things that stands out is how much faster he's moving this time around. Immigration, which was a key campaign promise of his, to secure the border. We've seen just how dramatically those border crossings have dropped.
TOM HOMAN, WHITE HOUSE BORDER CZAR: If you choose to have a U.S.- citizen child, knowing you're in this country illegally, you put yourself in that position.
JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: CNN's Kaitlan Collins at the White House.
Kaitlan, how will these new executive orders target illegal immigration?
COLLINS: Well, Jake, obviously, the President has signed over 200 executive orders. Good morning.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. That's everything you need. Tested (ph).
LEAVITT: This is a hostile and political act by Amazon.
COLLINS: They are going to start listing the price difference, because of President Trump's tariffs, when someone is checking out, so they can see, Here's what the price would be without these tariffs, here's what it is now with these tariffs.
TRUMP: Any questions?
COLLINS: How did your call with Jeff Bezos go? How did your call with Jeff Bezos go?
TRUMP: Great. Jeff Bezos was very nice. He was terrific. He solved the problem very quickly.
TAPPER: So why does Trump get to blame Biden for the current economy?
COLLINS: Yes, Jake, and it's a defensive tone from President Trump when he's looking at this new data. He also hinted that for the second quarter he may also be prepared to blame his predecessor.
TRUMP: This is Biden, and you could even say the next quarter is sort of Biden, because it doesn't just happen on a daily or an hourly basis.
[22:00:00]
COLLINS: Just a few moments ago, President Trump finally acknowledged that he was indeed ousting Mike Waltz as his National Security Advisor. That instead, he is going to nominate Waltz as the next Ambassador for the U.S. to the United Nations.
Any comment on Mike Waltz, Mr. President?
So, we just left the South Lawn departure. President Trump did not come over and speak to reporters despite shouted questions about his outgoing National Security Advisor, Mike Waltz.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: That's your look at the White House this week.
Thank you so much for joining us tonight.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" is up next.
