Return to Transcripts main page

The Source with Kaitlan Collins

Pence Honored With JFK Profile In Courage Award; Pence: Trump's Oval Office Spat With Zelenskyy Was "Regrettable"; Trump Says He Will Reopen Infamous Alcatraz Prison. Aired 9-10p ET

Aired May 05, 2025 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[21:00:05]

VERONICA MIRACLE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And we've been all around the island today. The buildings are in various states of disrepair. If you can see this one, it's just ruins behind me, the building still standing. I'm told, they would have to be completely probably built -- rebuilt from the ground-up, not even renovated.

And if you just take a look, we're right here on the cliff's edge. So in terms of building out, there's really no space to go. It's a rocky, small island.

Anderson, back to you.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: All right. Veronica Miracle, thanks very much.

The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST: Tonight, a SOURCE exclusive.

Former Vice President Mike Pence gets candid about President Trump's second term for the first time. What he thinks the President is getting wrong this time around, and what he believes his former boss has delivered on so far.

I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is a special edition of THE SOURCE.

Tonight in a SOURCE exclusive, former Vice President Mike Pence sits down for his first primetime interview, since Donald Trump returned to the White House.

Removed from the limits of elected office, and free to speak his mind, the former Vice President praised what he sees as the current administration's successes, and he was also blunt in warning about what he thinks his former boss is getting wrong. Whether that was on how Americans will pay a price for President Trump's tariffs, the President's views of Russian president Vladimir Putin, and the member of Trump's current Cabinet that he calls, quote, Unacceptable.

The timing of our conversation coming, as the President of the United States said this, about the oath that he swore to just over a 100 days ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KRISTEN WELKER, MODERATOR, "MEET THE PRESS," NBC NEWS: Don't you need to uphold the Constitution of the United States as president?

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I don't know. I have to respond by saying, again, I have brilliant lawyers that work for me, and they are going to obviously follow what the Supreme Court said.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: I asked the former Vice President about that comment, and much more, in our revealing conversation.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COLLINS: Mr. Vice President, thank you for being here.

And I should note where we are. We're in Boston, at the JFK Library, because you just received the John F. Kennedy Profile in Courage Award, last night, for certifying the election results in 2020. And in your acceptance speech, you invoked the Constitution, and you said, it's the common ground on which we stand. How has that been a guiding principle for you?

MIKE PENCE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, it's good to see you, Kaitlan, thanks. Thanks for traveling up here to the Kennedy Library.

It was deeply humbling for me to receive the recognition, the Profile in Courage Award, last night. As I shared with his family, President Kennedy was an inspiring figure, since I was a little boy, and his eloquence and his example inspires me still. And so, to be in any way associated with President Kennedy's legacy is something I'll cherish for the rest of my life.

But as I shared last night, the thing that I am more convinced of than ever, is that as we face challenges in our country, at home and abroad, as we resolve differences between Americans, that the Constitution is the common ground on which we stand.

And I saw that first hand, over the last four years, when people, literally, from every political perspective, have stopped me on the street, walked up to me in airports, and simply expressed appreciation for the fact that, as I said, last night, that I believe I did my duty under the Constitution, on that fateful day, to see to the peaceful transfer of power.

The American people cherish our Constitution. They cherish our rich traditions in liberty. And I think recognizing that the people of this country will always stand on that common ground should be a great source of encouragement to all of us.

COLLINS: Well, given that, when President Trump was asked if he thinks that he has to uphold the Constitution, he said, quote, I don't know.

Is there any doubt in your view that the President must uphold the Constitution?

PENCE: Well, we all take the same oath, which is, we put our left hand on the Bible, and raise our right hand, and we swear to support and defend the Constitution of the United States.

And despite our enduring differences about my duty, four years ago, I believe President Trump understands that well. Honestly, Kaitlan, I saw a bit of that clip, and I think the President was simply saying that he didn't yet know what his lawyers' views of that question was.

[21:05:00]

But I served alongside the President for four-and-a-half years. We had a good working relationship. I'm proud of the record of the Trump- Pence administration. And I believe the President understands what his responsibilities and duties are.

And also, I want to say that I have great confidence in Attorney General, Pam Bondi, and in the team around the President. I think Tom Homan is a great lawman. And as I wrote, last week, I commend President Trump and the administration for the strong steps that they've taken to secure our border and reduce illegal immigration by 90 percent. I think these are important steps. It's what the American people were hoping to see, and I greatly welcome it.

COLLINS: But in your view, there's no question of whether the President has to uphold the Constitution?

PENCE: No, we all take -- as my Marine Corps son reminded me, a few days before January 6, he said, You took the same oath I took, dad. It's the oath that people in the military, people in law enforcement, people in public life, take. And I have every confidence the President understands his responsibilities.

COLLINS: He didn't say it nearly as clearly as you did this just there. Because he was asked about this argument that has been playing out when it comes to -- you mentioned immigration. But a lot of this has been playing out, not on the southern border, but inside the courtroom and court fights.

And when he was asked if he agreed that everyone on U.S. soil deserves due process, he also said, quote, I don't know, I'm not a lawyer. Despite it being guaranteed by the Fifth Amendment.

Is it clear to you that everyone on U.S. soil is afforded due process?

PENCE: Well, I think that's one of the -- one of the genius aspects of our system, and of our Constitution, is that the protections of the liberties that are enshrined there, are provided to persons in America, not just citizens in America. And I have every confidence that the administration understands that.

The Supreme Court recently ruled that the President was fully acting within the law to use the Foreign Aliens Act to deport individuals from this country. They called for reasonable due process, recognizing that the safety of the American people is paramount. When people are in this country illegally, when people represent a threat to our communities, when they are engaged in criminal activities, there's a different standard.

And as I said, I have confidence in the administration, I have confidence in our Attorney General, and also, as I said, confidence in Tom Homan, who has a long career, served in our administration with great distinction, that they'll work through the issues of due process with the backstop of our courts.

But the priority has to be to protect our communities. I mean, we have seen tragic consequences, over the last four years, from the open- borders policies of the Biden administration.

And I think, in many respects, President Trump's historic victory, that incredible comeback of a year ago, last fall, was owing to the fact that the American people wanted to get back to the policies of our administration, not only on the economy, also believe, on the world stage, and certainly in the way that we secured the southern border of the United States.

COLLINS: But can they do both? Can't you protect communities, and also provide people due process, in your view?

PENCE: You sure can. And I have confidence in our justice system, I have confidence in our courts that we'll do just that, Kaitlan.

COLLINS: On the economy, you obviously were serving as Vice President, the last time President Trump was putting tariffs in place. He's gone much bigger and broader, this time. And he seems to be downplaying any concerns that people have about a recession. Instead, he's arguing, in the long run, his policies will be successful.

Do you worry, though, that the tariffs he's putting in place could potentially lead the U.S. into a recession?

PENCE: Well, let me -- let me back up for a second and say that I really do believe that President Trump's historic reelection, last year, was, in many respects, not just a reflection of personality, but it was also that, what I heard all over the country is, that people wanted to get back to the policies of our administration.

In addition to strong American leadership on the world stage, which we can get into in a minute, it also was that we cut taxes, rolled back regulation, unleashed American energy. But we also used targeted tariffs, particularly against China. After decades of trade abuses and intellectual property theft, we brought China to the table, and achieved that 2020 phase one trade deal, that was truly historic and was a beginning of changing the dynamic of our relationship with China.

[21:10:00]

So now, as I see this administration, I do have concerns that with the President's call for broad-based tariffs, against friend and foe alike, that ultimately he -- the administration is advancing policies that are not targeted at countries that have been abusing our trade relationship, but rather are essentially new industrial policy that will result in inflation, that will harm consumers, and ultimately harm the American economy.

So, again, I want to be clear. When it comes to China, when it comes to decades of trade abuses, my view always is free trade with free nations that we ought to be engaging our trading partners, across the free world, to lower trade barriers, lower non-tariff barriers and subsidies. But when it comes to authoritarian regimes, we ought to get tough, stay tough, and demand that they open their markets and respect our intellectual property.

COLLINS: He dubbed it, Liberation Day. And you wrote, in reference to that, that the only thing that Americans had been liberated from were trillions of dollars in investments.

Do you think he understands the impact that it could be having on regular Americans?

PENCE: I think he does. I -- look, I--

COLLINS: But he's still doing it anyway, in your view?

PENCE: President Trump and I had many long conversations about trade, in our four-and-a-half years. I strongly supported our administration's policies on trade, including the Get tough policies with Mexico and Canada, that resulted in the United States-Mexico- Canada agreement, the largest trade agreement in U.S. history.

But we were well on our way. We'd renegotiated a trade agreement with South Korea. We were well on our way to a new trade agreement with Japan, with the U.K., even the EU was in discussions. But it was -- it was all based on using his instinct that tariffs served the American economy, to bring our trading partners to the table, to open up markets.

My concern now is, I see the President following more of what I think has been his historic view that, at the end of the day, a certain minimum threshold of tariffs on all goods coming into the country will serve the American public and our economy. Some people believe that.

I hold the view that trade means jobs, and that if we were to erect even, even the 10 percent minimum tariff that is on today, if that was all that remained after this, I think -- I think ultimately, it would stifle American growth, limit prosperity, drive up costs for American consumers.

And we ought to be driving again toward that principle of free trade with free nations, and standing tough, standing firm on authoritarian regimes, like China.

COLLINS: So you think he's wrong on tariffs?

PENCE: I do think this version of tariff policy, that's broad-based, indiscriminate, applies tariffs to friend and foe alike, is not a win for the American people. COLLINS: One argument he's been making lately is that maybe children will have to make do with fewer toys, fewer dolls. The quote that he had yesterday was, I'm just saying that they don't need to have 30 dolls. They can have three. They don't need to have 250 pencils. They can have five.

Do you think the American people buy that argument?

PENCE: I have two grown daughters. I have three small granddaughters. And look, keeping dolls affordable, keeping our kids' toys affordable, that really is part of the American Dream.

I remember recently, the Secretary of the Treasury said that cheap goods was not a part of the American Dream. Well, I'm somebody who spent almost my entire life in public service. We lived on our paycheck, while we raised three kids, and put three kids through college. Cheap goods are a big part of it, and I think we ought to be candid about that.

What I will give the President credit for, is conceding the fact that his tariff policies will raise the cost of goods for consumers, whether it be toys, or pencils, or other products. And I appreciate him being forthright about that. I just think the American people cherish their freedom to--

COLLINS: But is he being forthright about that?

PENCE: --cherish their freedom to purchase their goods at the lowest possible cost. And that's not to say that, the end of the day, there are key industries that are important to have here.

[21:15:00]

But I think the way we generate manufacturing jobs, I think the way we generate high tech jobs, the way we generate the kind of jobs that will serve America's security and prosperity, is by making the Trump- Pence tax cuts permanent, rolling back regulation, lowering the cost of energy across the board, and making America the most attractive place in the world to invest and create jobs.

COLLINS: Well, and obviously, he came into office promising to lower prices. So if prices go up as a result of those policies, is that backtracking on a pretty big campaign promise?

PENCE: Well, some prices have gone down, as the President has conceded. And prices will fluctuate.

But I do have a concern that when the so-called 90-day pause comes off, that even the Administration has conceded that there may be a price shock in the economy. And there may be shortages.

Kaitlan, there were reports, over the weekend, of maybe a 35 percent reduction in the number of imports headed our way across the Pacific. And look, I think the American people are going to -- are going to see the consequences of this, I think they'll demand a different approach, and I think that approach is free trade with free nations. Let's use the leverage, the threat of tariffs, to negotiate down trade barriers with free nations, even while we stand firm with China and others.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COLLINS: Coming up, in part two of our exclusive interview, with former Vice President Mike Pence, what he thought about that remarkable Oval Office meeting, between Presidents Trump and Zelenskyy. Yes, that one.

[21:20:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: More now from my conversation with former Vice President Mike Pence. In perhaps his biggest and sharpest break with President Trump, the former Vice President laid out, in pretty blunt remarks, why he believes Trump is wrong when he says that he thinks Putin wants peace.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COLLINS: You have been very outspoken on foreign policy, especially when it comes to the war in Ukraine. You've traveled to Ukraine, met with President Zelenskyy.

When President Trump says that he thinks President Putin wants peace, do you agree with that?

PENCE: Well, I think if the last three years teaches us anything, it's that Vladimir Putin doesn't want peace. He wants Ukraine. And the fact that we are now nearly two months following a ceasefire agreement that Ukraine has agreed to, and Russia continues to delay and give excuses, I think, confirms that point.

Look, I've met Vladimir Putin. I have studied his leadership in Russia, over the decades, and I really believe that Putin only understands power. And it's the reason why, in this moment, we need to make it clear that the United States is going to continue to lead the free world, to provide Ukraine with the military support they need, to repel the Russian invasion, and achieve a just and lasting peace.

The wavering support the administration has shown, over the last few months, I believe, has only emboldened Russia. We continue to see their brutal assault on civilian populations, claiming innocent lives.

Now, let me be clear. This is not just about Ukraine, for me. I really do believe that if Vladimir Putin overruns Ukraine, it's just a matter of time before he crosses a border, where our men and women in uniform are going to have to go fight him. I mean, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, are all NATO allies. And if Russia crosses those borders, and we have a treaty obligation to engage them, militarily.

I hold, as we sit here at the Kennedy Library, I hold to that old Reagan Doctrine that, If you're willing to fight our enemies on your soil, we'll give you the means to fight them there, so we don't have to fight them. And that's the principle we should be following here, in giving President Zelenskyy and Ukraine the military support they need, to repel and to stand down that brutal Russian invasion.

COLLINS: You talked about studying Putin. There has been some concern or questions that maybe he's stringing the President along, that he's just slow-walking the negotiations with no intent of coming to the table. Do you share that view?

PENCE: Well, I think -- I think President Trump is starting to suspect that. He said, not long ago, that he was concerned he might be tapping him along, as he says, in that New York parlance. And I think he's right. If I was sitting with the President right now, instead of you, I would -- I would tell him: Follow your instincts on this. That's who this guy is.

And he only understands strength. I mean, look, there's a reason why Russia never even attempted to redraw international lines by force, during our first four years. And that was because our administration rebuilt our military. We took down Nord Stream 2, which was a tremendous blow to Russia. We gave approval to our military, in Syria, to take out a 100 Russian mercenaries without a single American casualty. We fired cruise missiles, not once, but twice in, into Syria, against Russia's ally, the Bashar Assad regime.

[21:25:00]

Russia knew, we were willing to use military force to defend our interests, and our allies. And so different than the Bush administration, the Obama administration, and then the Biden administration, Vladimir Putin stayed across the border during our years. And it convinced me more than anything else, that this is a moment for American strength, and the pathway to peace is by an unwavering commitment to freedom.

COLLINS: Given that, I just have to know what was going through your mind when you were watching that remarkable Oval Office meeting, where President Trump and Vice President Vance had an incredibly contentious exchange with President Zelenskyy.

What would you have done if you were in that room that day?

PENCE: Well, I've been in a lot of contentious meetings, in the Oval Office, just usually not on camera.

(LAUGHTER)

PENCE: There was -- there was one occasion, where we had congressional leaders in, that got a little sporty. My own personal posture was to--

COLLINS: But this is a president who's fighting for--

PENCE: But the President had his way.

COLLINS: --for his country, and so. And you've met President Zelenskyy.

PENCE: I have.

COLLINS: So I just, I wonder what you thought when you saw that.

PENCE: Well, I thought it was regrettable. I thought -- I thought President Zelenskyy was ill-advised to take his argument before the media, in the Oval Office. And I thought it was unfortunate, the way the President and the administration responded in that moment.

But I'm encouraged all the way through the knee-to-knee meeting, at the Vatican, that it looks like we've put the dialog back together.

Look, this really matters, I believe, for not just for Ukraine, not just for Europe, but for America, for all the reasons that I said, Kaitlan. I think it's absolutely essential. And I'm very encouraged that the President secured this historic minerals deal with Ukraine. I think -- I think that's going to benefit the American people with rare earth minerals. But more important than that, it sends a deafening message to Moscow, that America and Ukraine are here to stay.

COLLINS: Yes. Well, given contentious Oval Office meetings, the new Prime Minister of Canada is visiting tomorrow.

PENCE: Yes.

COLLINS: The President has been saying that he's not kidding when he's talking about making Canada the 51st state.

What advice would you give to the new Prime Minister, as he's going into that meeting?

PENCE: Well, I don't know that I would advise the Prime Minister of Canada. I've worked with his predecessor. And look, I--

COLLINS: Do you think Canada should be the 51st state?

PENCE: I think Canada has been a great ally of ours, whose soldiers have fought and died alongside Americans in every war, since World War I.

But I think I'd suggest to him that you come in, and let your yes be yes and your no be no, and speak plainly to the President. I think -- I think President Trump respects strength, he respects people with conviction, and has the capacity to adjust. And I expect it will be a good meeting.

COLLINS: Do you think he's serious when he won't rule out military force to retake Greenland -- or to take Greenland?

PENCE: Well, I think, Greenland is enormously important to us, and our national security. But the fact that we already have two military bases there, and the ability to negotiate further, is more than enough for us to satisfy that need, and then otherwise allow -- allow the people of our two nations to discuss any arrangements, going forward.

COLLINS: OK. So you don't think it needs to be taken over by military force? PENCE: I just -- I think we can -- I think we can address our security needs, in Greenland, by other means.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COLLINS: Up next. What the former Vice President had to say about President Trump pardoning virtually every January 6 rioter, including those who assaulted police officers on that day.

[21:30:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: In my conversation with the former Vice President Mike Pence, at the JFK Library, in Boston, this morning, there was one member of President Trump's Cabinet, in particular, that Pence took issue with. JFK's nephew, the Secretary of Health and Human Services now, Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COLLINS: Your organization, Advancing American Freedom, publicly opposed the nomination and, it turns out, the confirmation of RFK Jr., as the HHS Secretary.

The United States, right now, is facing its single largest measles outbreak in 25 years. Do you trust his leadership, in a moment like this one?

PENCE: Well, as you know, Kaitlan, I'm pro-life. I don't apologize for it. And the very idea that a Republican president would nominate an abortion rights supporter, to lead the Department of Health and Human Services was just unacceptable to me.

Policies regarding the sanctity of life, regarding conscience protections, all flow through HHS. And I had those concerns. Evidenced recently, with the Secretary's FDA chief, who said, despite promises that were made in the confirmation hearings, that they have no plans to even look into the harmful effect of the abortion pill on women, across the country. And so, that was the core of our concern.

[21:35:00]

But I -- you know, as I said, as I've got -- I've got four grandchildren, going on five coming this fall.

COLLINS: Congratulations.

PENCE: Thank you.

And measles is a very serious disease, particularly for small children. And we should send no message across America, other than to encourage parents at the time that young children are able to be vaccinated, to get that measles vaccine. It's a completely preventable disease. And I do have concerns that we have a Secretary, at HHS, who has had a lifetime career of undermining public confidence in vaccines. We should have the opposite. And I hope that we continue to hear voices, around the country, that speak into this moment, for the sake of our kids, and our grandkids.

COLLINS: I mentioned the reason that we're here, and why you were getting this award. And it's because of how you acted, and what you did, or to the President's chagrin, did not do, on January 6.

And when you were recounting that day, during your speech, last night, the line stood out to me where you said, The only heroes that you saw that day were wearing uniforms. Meaning, the officers who were there, protecting the Capitol, and protecting you and others.

What should it say to the American people then, that President Trump pardoned the people who were convicted of assaulting police officers that day?

PENCE: Over the last four years, I've had people come up and thank me for what I did that day.

But I've said, a 100 times, the only heroes I saw that day were wearing uniforms. When we were evacuated down to the parking garage, underneath the

Senate, I literally saw Capitol Hill Police coming and going through that area, some of whom had injuries, and -- but none of whom flinched.

I mean, it was clear that our Capitol Hill Police, the security at our Capitol, was caught off-guard, by the massive riot that ensued. But their courage, their bravery, should be heralded for generations to come, because they secured the Capitol, and allowed us to reconvene the very same day and complete our work under the Constitution.

I will tell you I was -- I was deeply disappointed to see President Trump pardon people that engaged in violence against law enforcement officers, on that day. President has every right, under the Constitution, to grant pardons. But in that moment, I thought it sent the wrong message.

COLLINS: It was nearly 10 years ago, almost hard to believe, that you said, on the campaign trail, in 2016, Character matters to the presidency, and Donald Trump will bring the highest level of integrity to the highest office in the land. You can count on it.

Do you still feel that way today?

PENCE: Well, I want to be very clear. I'm very proud of the record of the Trump-Pence administration.

President Trump and I had a good professional and personal relationship for four-and-a-half years. I surprise people sometimes, when I tell them that we never had a crossword between us, until those fateful days at the end. We're very different men. We have different ways of expressing ourselves, and, in some ways, different priorities. But we had a great working relationship, and I think we delivered for the American people.

For me, ultimately, character in public life is about doing what you said you're going to do. And we did that in our four years.

And I will tell you that in the early days of this new Trump administration, I think the President, in many ways, has been doing that again.

He's delivered on securing the border.

He's restored morale in our military, where now recruitment in our military, having been flagging over the last several years, is now exceeding goals in every branch of our service. We took the fight to the Houthis, on their soil, on our terms, and fought back, after the Biden administration had largely abandoned the region.

And I think all those steps give evidence of the fact that President Trump is keeping his word to the American people, just as we did.

Where I'm going to continue to seek to be a voice, as a happy warrior and the conservative that I've always been, is where I see this Trump administration departing from the successful policies of our administration. Whether it be making the tax cuts permanent, when some in and around the administration are talking about actually raising the top marginal rate, a move that would be an enormous tax increase on small businessowners across this country.

[21:40:00]

Where I see the wavering support for Ukraine, it contradicts the strong leadership on the world stage that President Trump and our administration provided, in our first four years.

And where I see a marginalizing of the right to life, both in personnel and in policy decisions, and that's different from our administration where we--

COLLINS: What do you attribute those changes to?

PENCE: --we stood strong for the right to life.

COLLINS: What do you attribute those changes to? I mean, if those were the policies when you were there, and this is what's happening now, is that -- is it because you're not there? Is it staffing? Or is it the President himself that's changed?

PENCE: Well, I can't account for it. I know that it's true to say that personnel is policy. We had a diversity of views around the President. That's his -- his leadership style was to put a lot of people around that Resolute Desk in the Oval Office, hear a lot of ideas.

And I hope, even from the outside, that I and others can maybe give the President another thought, remind him of the policies that succeeded in our administration, that created security and prosperity, and strengthened the values of the American people, preserved our liberties in our courts. And whatever the future holds for me, I'm going to try and be a consistent voice for those conservative values that I think are not only the right policy for the Republican Party. But I think they're the best way forward for a boundless future for the American people.

COLLINS: Vice President Pence, thank you for your time.

PENCE: Thank you, Kaitlan.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COLLINS: Coming up. We'll dig into Vice President Pence's comments with two former staffers from the first Trump administration, and also a former Democratic congressman. My political sources are here next.

[21:45:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: More now on my sit-down with the former Vice President Mike Pence, his first primetime interview since his former boss returned to the White House.

My political sources are here tonight, joining me at the table.

Alyssa, you obviously worked with Vice President Pence, when you were in the Trump administration, last time. I wonder what stood out to you from his comments there.

ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: A couple of things.

He couldn't help but start by praising what he agreed with that President Trump did, and that's vintage Mike Pence. He's somebody who largely agrees with him on the issues, and he's going to give him credit. He's not somebody who speaks often. He doesn't take needless swipes. And I think that his words are more effective because he speaks so infrequently.

He did break with him on a few key areas. In areas that I know him well enough to know, he would have told Donald Trump to his face, he thinks maybe we should consider a different option, tariffs in Ukraine. Those are things we dealt with in the first term, that Mike Pence, his Chief of Staff, Marc Short, were people who were regularly kind of pushing back, on sort of the Peter Navarro approach to tariffs. And he would have been somebody who had those conversations first term around.

So, I think he's just echoing from the outside, where he strongly breaks with the President. But a lot of it was also acknowledging he agrees with some of what he's doing.

COLLINS: Yes, he doesn't bluntly come out and just criticize him. But for Mike Pence to say what he said there about the tariffs, I thought, was quite notable, in terms of saying that he is worried that it's going to do real damage. And he said that -- I mean, it seemed to be a kind of a play on words, where he was saying it was good that Trump was acknowledging prices are going to go up as a result of this.

BILL STEPIEN, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE POLITICAL DIRECTOR: I mean, Pence cares as much about free trade as Trump does tariffs. I mean, he's from Indiana, pro-NAFTA. His state benefited greatly, in his eyes, from that legislation. So, I mean, he cares as much about it, just on the flipside of the issue.

COLLINS: Yes, what stood out to you as you were listening to that?

MONDAIRE JONES, (D) FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE: Well, the first thing that stood out to me was that he was receiving a Profile in Courage for doing what should be uncontroversial, which was simply fulfilling his constitutional duty to certify the 2020 election, OK? That speaks to how sort of morally and democratically bankrupt the Republican Party has become, that that is considered remarkable, to the point where he would be awarded for that.

But also, at the same time, I thought his interview with you is a Profile in Cowardice. He explained away President Trump's comment to the press, a few days ago, that he wasn't sure whether he had an obligation to fulfill the Constitution.

And he really did not break with him until halfway through your interview, when it came to the issue of tariffs, and of course, when it came to the issue of our support, or lack thereof, of Ukraine. Now, those are two areas I happen to agree with the former Vice President.

But when it came to defending our Constitution, he minimized the assault on our institutions that is just emanating from this White House, every single day, whether it is, on -- in defiance of a nine- zero Supreme Court order, which continues to this day. Just weeks later, he still has not facilitated the return of this individual who was illegally deported. Obviously, we've also learned that at least one U.S. citizen has been deported. And he is crashing the economy.

COLLINS: On due process, what he said there, and people may not have caught it, that was the part of the whole how Trump got into the, Do you believe you have to uphold the Constitution, back-and-forth, with Kristen Welker, was he was asked if due process is afforded to just citizens or to everyone in the United States. Obviously, in the Fifth Amendment, it says, Persons.

And Pence was saying there that that's the genius of the Constitution. And he seemed to make that distinction there, which may not have been as notable, and it might not have stood out as much as the other comments, but it was a break with what Trump would not say.

[21:50:00]

FARAH GRIFFIN: I thought it was -- it was a notable distinction. And I do think in the Trump era, there's this desire by some, who oppose him, to want those who criticize him, on certain things, to come out against everything he says.

Now, Vice President Pence agrees with him on many things. But their fundamental break, January 6th, and sometimes how he may interpret the Constitution. Those are places that he's going to be firm and definitive. But he's not going to overinterpret things.

I heard -- when Pence said that he's -- that answer to the question was more deferring to his attorneys? I actually agree with him. And I'm deeply critical of Donald Trump. I think that that was more speaking to just the fact that he's answering the question, thinking like, I might get feedback from my attorneys that's different. So, I see it a little bit differently.

But I think that he chooses his words cautiously, because he only speaks out in very rare moments.

JONES: I think he's afraid of repercussions. I mean, is it possible that the reason he continues to carry water for this President is because he's afraid of the physical ramifications that Senator Lisa Murkowski of Alaska also alluded to? The question about due process and about--

FARAH GRIFFIN: I don't think he carried water for him.

JONES: --and about upholding the Constitution was a very straight- forward question. I want to be very clear on that. The question was whether he thinks he has an obligation to uphold the Constitution. And he said, I don't know, I have to consult my lawyers on that. That is absurd, given the oath that he has taken, multiple times.

STEPIEN: There are more differences in my eyes, between the men, than similarities, right? They're kind of like that married couple friend group that you're shocked when they get divorced, right? But when you peel back the onion, like, there were big policy differences between the two, irreconcilable differences between the two. It was kind of a marriage of convenience.

I mean, go back to 2016, Pence was not reassured of winning reelection. He needed an escape hatch. Trump needed conservative credibility, which came in quite handy, later on in the campaign. So, when you come back to 2016, it really was a marriage of convenience.

FARAH GRIFFIN: That said, though, if I--

COLLINS: Well--

FARAH GRIFFIN: --if I could say. I think that's something that Pence brought to the table, that's undervalued in politics, is that he was willing to say no to Donald Trump, or to give him alternative perspectives, but he would do it one-on-one. He would never do it in the media. He would never discuss his conversations he had with him one-on-one.

But he was somebody who he would have gone in before Liberation Day, and said, This is going to tank markets. This is going to hurt your first-100-day agenda. This is not the direction. Let's find a way to get there that achieves what you think is right, but what also the plurality of your economic advisers think is the best thing for the economy.

He did it in the first term. We both know Donald Trump loves him some tariffs. I think that's something he might be missing, right now, is a Mike Pence who has the respect to tell him to his face, when maybe he should reconsider things.

COLLINS: Yes, well, when he said, We'd have had a lot of conversations about tariffs, it was clear that--

FARAH GRIFFIN: Yes.

COLLINS: --one of them thinks tariffs work in a broad manner, and one does not.

On January 6, you said, his Profile in Courage that he got the award for, was for certifying the results. Obviously, he was facing immense pressure not to do so, from the President.

JONES: Sure.

COLLINS: When he commented on the pardons of the rioters, who assaulted law enforcement that day, he came out -- and there was no caveat there, no praise of certain things there. He said that--

JONES: Yes.

COLLINS: --it was a huge disappointment for him.

JONES: But you know what else I noticed about that?

COLLINS: What?

JONES: He didn't directly answer your question. Because your question to him was, What message do you think it sends to the American people? And where he ended up was that he disagreed with the -- he said he was disappointed. Disappointed -- I -- almost died on January 6. Disappointed? They almost hung -- you know, they were calling to hang Mike Pence. Everything was so muted.

And of course, the answer to your question is that it sends the message that this President is a lawless president, who will reward loyalty, over upholding the Constitution and the rule of law that he has a run-on, on the past several -- in the past several election cycles.

COLLINS: Final word?

FARAH GRIFFIN: Pence did the right thing on January 6. I agree that he should have gotten this award. And I think his words today echo that.

STEPIEN: I think principle's pretty rare in Washington, D.C. I respect it, whether it comes from Rand Paul, or AOC. Like, he knew his political career was over on that day when he made that decision, and he made it anyway. There aren't many people in D.C. who would do that.

FARAH GRIFFIN: Yes.

COLLINS: Thank you all for being here. Great to have everyone to break down the interview. So thank you so much. Up next. Alcatraz was nearly three times more expensive to operate than any other federal prison. That's why it's no longer one. President Trump wants to reopen it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Nobody ever escaped. One person almost got there. But they, as you know the story, they found his clothing rather badly ripped up, and it was a lot of shark bites, a lot of -- lot of problems.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[21:55:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: Tonight, President Trump says he's serious about rebuilding and reopening Alcatraz. Previously, one of the most notorious maximum security prisons in the United States. But for the last 50 years, a major historical landmark and tourist destination.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: It's right now a museum, believe it or not. A lot of people go there. It has the most violent criminals in the world, and nobody ever escaped. One person almost got there. But they, as you know the story, they found his clothing rather badly ripped up, and it was a lot of shark bites, a lot of -- lot of problems.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: The President argued that restoring the prison island, off the coast of San Francisco, would, quote, "Serve as a symbol of Law, Order, and JUSTICE," given its history of once housing some of the most dangerous criminals in the country, including Al Capone and Whitey Bulger.

[22:00:00]

But as the Bureau of Prisons acknowledges, on its own website, The Rock, as it became known, was nearly three times more expensive to operate than any other federal prison. That's why it's been closed since 1963.

Now, three people did escape Alcatraz, in 1962. They were never found. The Bureau of Prisons though says on its website that the idea that there are man-eating sharks in the San Francisco Bay is a myth.

Thanks so much for joining us tonight.

"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" is up next.