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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Chicago Native The First American To Be Named Pope; Trump Admin. Plans Air Traffic Control System Overhaul; Trump Names Fox's Jeanine Pirro Interim U.S. Attorney For D.C. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired May 08, 2025 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
FATHER ROBERT HAGAN, O.S.A., FRIEND OF POPE LEO XIV, PRIOR PROVINCIAL OF THE PROVINCE OF ST. THOMAS OF VILLANOVA: --and I think for Leo, I don't think people aspire to be Pope. I think he loved God, and he loved his neighbor, and it took him to places like the poorest of the poor in Peru, and to places around the world.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: Yes.
HAGAN: Where people just discovered this authenticity and this genuine love for people.
COOPER: Yes.
Father Hagan, it's really a pleasure to talk to you. Thank you so much. I wish you the best.
Coming up. Kaitlan Collins starts now with "THE SOURCE."
Thanks for watching. I'll see you tomorrow.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Straight from THE SOURCE tonight.
For the first time ever, the Pope is American. He is from Chicago, to be precise. What Pope Leo XIV said in his first words from the Vatican balcony, and how the White House is responding tonight.
Also, speaking of the U.S., the Transportation Secretary has a plan to fix our nation's air traffic control disaster. How quickly can it happen, though, and how much is it going to cost? President Trump's former Transportation Secretary, Elaine Chao, is my source tonight.
And President Trump was just forced to pull his choice for D.C.'s top federal prosecutor. He just replaced him with Fox News host, and former judge, Jeanine Pirro. What my sources are saying tonight about that pick.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
Tonight, the white smoke that is billowing out of the chimney atop the Sistine Chapel marked a first in the history of this country and a first ever for the Catholic Church. Cardinal Robert Francis Prevost is now Pope Leo XIV, the first American to ever be the Pope. Most recently, he held a powerful Vatican office for Bishop appointments, and now he is the Bishop of Rome.
It was just a few months ago that he gave this insight into how he sees the role of bishops.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POPE LEO XIV, SOVEREIGN OF VATICAN CITY STATE: Pope Francis has reminded us many times a bishop is called to serve. His authority is service. And so, to look for different ways in which a bishop can serve in any given society, in any given church, I think, is very important.
The bishop is not supposed to be a little prince sitting in his kingdom. But rather called authentically, to be humble, to be close to the people he serves, to walk with them, to suffer with them, and to look for ways that he can better-live the gospel message in the midst of his people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Here in America, it's the story of the boy who grew up in this Chicago home, cheered on the White Sox, and prayed at Saint Mary of the Assumption Parish on the South Side, now the Holy Father to the world's 1.4 billion Catholics.
The selection of the first American Pope was met with astonishment from those who knew him as a child.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Robbie, he was nice. He was nice.
I mean, we think the Pope would come from here, you know? And I said, Oh, a fair chance, you know? And then I just got a text saying that he was the Pope. I thought, You got to be kidding.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Similar reaction played out on the campus of Villanova University, where students were wrapping their heads around the fact that they now have the Pope as an alum.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh my gosh, like, the Pope went to Villanova. I was like, Oh my gosh, no way.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh my god, the Pope, he went to Villanova. And so I've had a lot of Villanova families, so we're all kind of freaking out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was stunned silence everywhere, and I was overwhelmed, I started crying.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: At the White House, President Trump, whose relationship with the late Pope Francis, was certainly marked by disagreements, and vastly different views, offered this reaction.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Mr. President, are you planning to meet the Pope in the future?
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I do. They've already called.
They have already spoken to us, and we'll see what happens. But again, to have the Pope from the United States of America, that's a great honor.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: For his part, Pope Leo is expected to build on Pope Francis' reforms.
Before becoming the Pope, Prevost spent much of his career as a missionary in South America, and holds a dual citizenship in the United States and Peru, where he served as a bishop.
CNN's David Culver was there to witness it all today.
DAVID CULVER, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Kaitlan, it feels rather lonely here in St Peter's Square. It wasn't like that throughout the day. It was shoulder-to-shoulder, jam-packed, especially as the white smoke went up, and then we saw for the first time, Pope Leo XIV coming to the balcony behind me.
And folks were flocking from all parts of the city, and you had people who, coincidentally, were obviously passing through as tourists, and just wanted to be here for this moment.
Many of them shocked to realize, especially those from the U.S. and from Latin America, that this is a Pope of the Americas. And we say, Of the Americas, because he is American, yes, from the U.S., but also Peruvian, and that seems to be embraced here heavily.
In fact, I had one woman come up to me and say, Is he, in fact, an American? And I said, Yes, he is. And she seemed disappointed at first, in fact, and then she said, Oh, but yes, he's also got ties to Latin America. And that seemed to be, for her, a rewarding aspect in all of this.
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And it's something that's going to speak to his ability to, as the church looks at it, potentially unify, especially in a moment of such division and polarization. It's something that he perhaps is looking at as well. As he came out, he spoke two languages, Italian and Spanish. He mentioned his diocese that he served in Peru for many years. But beyond that, he didn't speak any English. And we know obviously he's fluent. He's U.S. citizen and American, and yet he seemed to avoid that.
And perhaps that was intentional, Kaitlan, or perhaps it was -- it was just his moment to want to recognize those who were in front of him. And of course, he is here looking on to Saint Peter's Square, in Italy.
And so, I think that is something that folks now, going ahead, as we look into the next days, are going to be watching closely, to see what steps he takes to either continue on with Pope Francis' message, or starts to set his own tone.
Kaitlan.
COLLINS: David Culver from Rome, thank you for that.
My next source tonight is the Archbishop of Miami, Thomas Wenski.
And it's so great to have you here.
Because I think a lot of people maybe did not see this coming to have the first American Pope.
ARCHBISHOP THOMAS WENSKI, ARCHDIOCESE OF MIAMI: You're correct. And there were a few people, handicappers, that had him in the runup. But when he came out of the loggia, everybody was shocked and surprised, and I certainly was, and many other priests I've spoken to were as well.
And that was because the conventional wisdom said that no American could ever be elected Pope, because America is this superpower and rich country. And so, they said that the optics would make the election of an American Pope impossible, until it wasn't. And so today, the impossible became possible, and we have an American Pope.
But a Pope of the Americas, he is the second Pope from the Americas. Pope Francis came from Argentina. He comes from United States and Peru. So they were both Americans in that wider sense that would include and embrace the whole hemisphere. And he's a citizen of Peru, a citizen of the United States, and as of today, he is also the Citizen and the Sovereign of the Vatican City State.
COLLINS: Yes. Why do you think that changed, that notion that we could never have an American Pope? What do you attribute that to?
WENSKI: Well, I think the world has gotten a little bit perhaps more mature in that sense. And again, at this point, the bishops were looking beyond nationalities or ethnicities. They were looking at the -- at the person himself. This was not an election where you had to check off a diversity index and say, We have to have this type of diversity, or avoid that type of diversity, so. And if you look at the life of Pope Leo XIV, he checks off a lot of boxes that make him certainly a competent administrator as Pope, and an innovative strategist, and also a sensitive pastor to people in the world, and a world that is driven by division and conflict.
COLLINS: Yes.
WENSKI: And he checks off those boxes. I mean, he speaks many languages. He was a seminary professor. He was a vocation recruiter, somebody who was recruiting future priests. He was a teacher. He was a missionary in Latin America. He was the Superior of his Augustinian community. And most recently, he was the one in charge of the Congregation of Bishops, the committee, if you will, that is charged with vetting possible candidates--
COLLINS: Yes.
WENSKI: --for the episcopacy throughout the whole world.
COLLINS: And I know you had met Pope Francis on several occasions. Just to see this moment now. It's so great to hear from you. Archbishop Thomas Wenski--
WENSKI: And--
COLLINS: --thank you for your time.
WENSKI: And I'm looking forward to meeting Pope Leo XIV as well. Yes. Yes.
COLLINS: And when you do, please let us know. We'll have you back to hear your thoughts.
WENSKI: OK. And the word, Leo, means lion in Latin. And so, we pray that he will be a gentle shepherd of souls, but with the heart and the courage of a lion. And I'm sure in months and years to come, we will hear him roar.
COLLINS: A great prayer. Thank you so much. It's great to have you.
Also here at the table with me.
Dr. Kurt Martens, Professor of Canon Law at The Catholic University of America.
[21:10:00]
And CNN Vatican Analyst, Katie Prejean McGrady, who is the host of the "Katie McGrady Show" on SiriusXM's The Catholic Channel, which is operated by the Archdiocese of New York.
It's great to have you both here.
I mean, just to hear his thoughts on this, and in terms of which the Archbishop was saying this will look like, I do think there are questions about what direction this Pope will take the church in. KATIE PREJEAN MCGRADY, CNN VATICAN ANALYST, HOST, THE KATIE MCGRADY SHOW ON THE SIRIUSXM'S THE CATHOLIC CHANNEL: I mean, certainly questions. The one that's kind of lurking in my mind is, is his name a signal to us? Leo XIII was a bridge-builder Pope. He was elected at 69. That was pointed out a little earlier on CNN. And everybody kind of thought Leo XIII would be a short pope. He wasn't in the best of health when he was elected. And then he led us into the 1900s.
And so who's to say what this 69-year-old Leo will be, what he will build bridges in. I think he's certainly going to be a peacemaking Pope. That's kind of what I got my eye on.
COLLINS: A peacemaking Pope. I mean, and the idea of him being a Pope, as David Culver was saying, I thought that was well-put, not just of America, but of the Americas.
I mean, if you were betting on this, you would have made a lot of money, if you bet that an American was going to be the Pope, because the odds just were so slim, in terms of this, and in terms of what that means for the church having a first ever like this.
KURT MARTENS, PROFESSOR OF CANON LAW, THE CATHOLIC UNIVERSITY OF AMERICA: That's true. Actually, I should have betted on him.
COLLINS: We all should have.
MARTENS: Because he was on the top of my list, so.
COLLINS: Was he?
MARTENS: Well, actually, I was sitting today in my office, with someone of our comms team. And as the white smoke was coming out, we were waiting for the name. And so I was making my list, and I had Prevost on one, and then Cardinal David from the Philippines on two, and Parolin and Tagle on three and four.
COLLINS: You had him as your first choice.
MARTENS: That's--
COLLINS: Why? What made you?
MARTENS: Because it went fast, and we were all kind of misled by what Archbishop Wenski just called, conventional wisdom, It's not going to be an American Pope.
But don't forget. We threw out the first conventional wisdom in 2013, because we would never have a Jesuit Pope, because you could not have a Black Pope, the Superior of the Jesuits, and a Jesuit Pope, the White Pope. So we threw that out in 2013. We would never have a Jesuit as Pope. We have one.
Someone asked me earlier this week in an interview, Would we have an American? I said, Well, there is this wisdom. However say, Never say never. And so there we are. So we have our first American-born Pope. COLLINS: I mean, we have his yearbook photos, which, this is something I've been fascinated by and looking at today. And you heard those students on Villanova's campus. What I was saying earlier is, he's the first who's ever maybe filled out a March Madness bracket. But that's his is college yearbook photo, 1977. And I just think it's so relatable--
PREJEAN MCGRADY: Yes.
COLLINS: --to see the Pope's yearbook photo.
MARTENS: It is.
PREJEAN MCGRADY: He could be my dad, which is kind of wild. He plays Wordle. His brother said that.
COLLINS: Oh, really?
PREJEAN MCGRADY: He's a White Sox fan, even though the Wrigley Field sign said he's a Cubs fan.
COLLINS: Yes.
PREJEAN MCGRADY: His brother clarified that, Our mom was a Cubs fan, he's a White Sox fan.
And I think that relatability is something that's going to appeal to the world. It makes for great TV, here in the States. But I think the whole world is like, Wait a second, who is this guy? And he is a very global figure. He knew the bishops of the world. He's very -- I mean, it was Portuguese, French, Italian, Spanish. He could read German and Latin. I mean, the guy's a genius.
There's something about -- a friend of mine texted me earlier, saw a video of me, said, he sounds like me. And there's something relatable about that.
COLLINS: Yes.
MARTENS: That's right. And I think what was just said here about, he's a universalist. He's born here, but he spent time in United States one-third of his life. Then was a missionary in South America, in Peru, was a bishop there. Then went to Rome. And so he has all these experiences.
Archbishop Wenski was also pointing out he trained priests. He was a professor at the seminary. And so, he has all these things that he knows about. And so, he has this universalist view that we could expect a pope to have.
COLLINS: Yes, and he was asked what he does in his free time, in an interview, two years ago. And he said, he considered himself to be quite the amateur tennis player.
PREJEAN MCGRADY: Wow. COLLINS: He said he's had few occasions to practice. He looks forward to getting back on the court. I'm not sure he's going to have a ton of time for that.
PREJEAN MCGRADY: You know that there's Vatican Gardens. They could probably fit a pickleball court next to the Vatican Museum.
MARTENS: Actually, to that point, don't forget, when John Paul II was elected, he asked the Vatican offices, Can you install a swimming pool for me? And they kind of protested it, Holy Father, it's going to cost a lot of money. He said, It's that or a new conclave. So they installed a new swimming pool for him. So I'm sure that a tennis court is going to cost less than a--
PREJEAN MCGRADY: They put one on the roof. There's plenty of space.
COLLINS: And it's beautiful over there.
PREJEAN MCGRADY: Oh, it's gorgeous.
COLLINS: I mean, you could easily put one over there.
PREJEAN MCGRADY: Yes, I think so.
COLLINS: It's a great place to play tennis.
MARTENS: Sure. But we'll have to inform the Vatican to hire men to make sure that they pick up the balls when they go over the wall.
PREJEAN MCGRADY: Yes.
COLLINS: Yes, that's a good point, actually. Might hit a few unsuspecting tourists.
MARTENS: Exactly.
COLLINS: I do have to read what his brother clarified earlier, because it was going around Cubs or White Sox, what is he? There was some confusion.
[21:15:00]
And his brother, John, put out a statement, setting the record straight. He told WGN, in Chicago, that He was never, ever a Cubs fan, I don't know where that came from--
PREJEAN MCGRADY: Ever.
COLLINS: --He was always a Sox fan.
PREJEAN MCGRADY: I mean, he's a South Side boy, right?
COLLINS: So great to have you both. I can't wait to see what happens, including the renovations that happen at the Vatican.
Also tonight, a live look at the Empire State Building. It is lit up in white and gold. That is in honor of the first American Pope. Pope Leo has only been on the job a few hours. But you have to see what some people from MAGA-world are saying about this election. We'll tell you why, with a top Democratic senator, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:20:00]
COLLINS: President Trump is celebrating the election of the first American Pope. But not everyone in MAGA-world seems to be happy with Pope Leo XIV.
Before Cardinal Robert Francis Prevost became Pope, a social media account posting under his name shared critical views of the Vice President, JD Vance. In February, the account shared this article, criticizing his interpretation of the Christian doctrine, calling it quote, Wrong.
Last month, the account posted a tweet claiming that Trump and El Salvador's President laughing about the deportation of migrants there, seeming to criticize that. And in 2020, the account reposted a bishop who said he was praying for George Floyd and his family.
Far-right activist and a huge Trump ally, Laura Loomer, took issue with that. She responded today with this quote, in all-caps, MARXIST POPE.
I'll note, CNN has not independently confirmed that that X account is connected to Prevost, who was elected the 267th Pope today.
Joining me tonight is the Democratic senator, Tim Kaine, of Virginia.
And Senator, just first as an American, and as a Catholic, what does it mean to you to see the first American Pope elected? Were you surprised?
SEN. TIM KAINE (D-VA): Kaitlan, I was surprised. I was surprised at his story. And it was emotional, when you are, as a Catholic, and you hear that there's white smoke, you're on the edge of your seat.
But this particular pope, Pope Leo XIV, his background, born in Chicago, went to Villanova University, joined the Augustinian order. Much of his priestly life and service has been in Peru. I was a missionary with Jesuits in Honduras, back in the early 80s. So somebody who went and worked in Latin America, as a priest, reminds me of so many of the missionaries I worked with.
And then his work with Pope Francis to select bishops and cardinals was a powerful thing, and I think that may be one of the reasons he was chosen. He had gotten to know the cardinals well.
And then the other thing for Catholics is choosing the name, Pope Leo. Pope Leo XIII was a very, very well-regarded Pope in the latter half of the 1800s, who spoke very passionately about the rights of working people, everyday people. And so, to have this first American choose Pope Leo as his name sends a very strong message about the pope he would like to be. And I also think it's a message of continuity with the path that Pope Francis was treading.
I look forward to my continuing journey, as a Catholic, under the leadership of Pope Leo XIV.
COLLINS: Yes. And given that Villanova background, maybe the first pope to have filled out a March Madness bracket. We'll see what he says about that.
But on the front of both of your shared experiences being missionaries, I wonder what that says to you about how he will handle this role.
KAINE: I think he -- look, he's a guy who, early in his life, to be a priest, got out of his comfort zone, and went to a place where he might not have known many, and might not have known the language. But he made it not just a temporary home, but years and years and years.
I think, in at least three different chapters in his life, he was in Peru. That makes him a citizen of the world. That makes him somebody who understands deeply why people migrated. It makes him understands the needs of poor people, and how the poor often find such deep solace and resilience in their faith.
That was the eye-opening experience for me, a kid from suburban Kansas City, when I went to work in Honduras in 1980 and 1981, is being put into a different environment and seeing how people relied so deeply on their faith--
COLLINS: Yes.
KAINE: --to get them through the adversities of life. He will have experienced that, and that will give him a deep level of compassion, in my view.
COLLINS: I mentioned that Twitter account that is linked to him, that shows he has some pretty strong views on positions that have been taken by the Vice President, JD Vance, and just the administration overall. One with that article that said, JD Vance is wrong, Jesus doesn't ask for us to rank our love for others.
Since he was elected, I should note the President and Vice President have both sent him well wishes today.
But I wonder if you hope the new pope shares that view, that opinion, with the administration, now that he is the Pope.
KAINE: Well, look, the Pope is beyond politics. I mean, not that there's no politics in the job, but I'm sure the Pope has got things in his Twitter account that I might not like, and he might have things that JD Vance doesn't like.
Catholic means, as you know, universal. It's a universal church, people all over the world. The one thing I really love about the church is when I got a mass on Sunday, there's not many places in our life, these days, where you can drive through the parking lot, and there are bumper stickers of all political persuasions. We often self- select, but not as Catholics.
And so, look, it's an enormous burden that is on his shoulders. I think his life has prepared him for it. He'll probably say things that all of us might tussle with him on. But if he's making us think about our faith, if he's making us think about our responsibilities toward one another, and toward God, I mean, what more could you ask for a pope?
[21:25:00]
COLLINS: That's a good point.
And on the topic of immigration. I know you're on Capitol Hill right now. You're planning to force a Senate vote on a resolution that would essentially require the administration to release a report, detailing their efforts to comply with court orders, when it comes to deportations, which some courts have said were wrongful deportations, to places like El Salvador.
Have any of your Republicans colleagues told you that they'll vote for this with you?
KAINE: Not yet. But I'm expecting votes.
As you might know, Kaitlan, in the last couple of weeks, I've had a number of provisions on the floor, sort of challenging actions of the executive, that I think, are overreach. And I've been able to get some Republicans to vote with me on tariffs. I encouraged some Republicans to vote with me to counter the Hegseth nomination to be Secretary of Defense.
This particular motion is called a privileged motion. Even one senator can file it and force a vote, even one in the Minority. And it's basically this. If the President is going to pay taxpayer dollars to send people into Salvadoran prisons, then we should at least get a human rights report about conditions in those prisons. What we do with the report, we'll see. But we should at least see a fair report on conditions there. That will come up for a vote next week.
And if the President proposes to use dollars to send people into prisons, elsewhere in the world, I'm going to file the same human rights motion, with respect to those countries as well.
COLLINS: We heard from President Biden today, a rare appearance since he left office. He was on "The View."
I want you to listen to what he had to say about what happened, last November.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, CO-HOST, "THE VIEW," STRATEGIST AND FORMER PRESS SECRETARY OF THE DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE OF THE UNITED STATES: Knowing what you know now, do you think you would have beat him?
JOE BIDEN, 46TH U.S. PRESIDENT: Yes, he still got 7 million fewer votes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
BIDEN: Yes, OK? A lot of people didn't show up. Number one. Number one. Number two, the -- they're very close in those -- those toss-up states. It was -- it wasn't a slam-dunk.
Let me put this way. He's had the worst 100 days any president's ever had.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Do you agree with President Biden that he would have defeated Donald Trump in the election?
KAINE: Kaitlan, here's the way I look at this. I was on a ticket in 2016, and we lost. And I've thought about a lot of things might have gone differently, if FBI Director hadn't publicly spoken in the last 10 days, or if Russians wouldn't have done this or that. But the important thing is not to rethink what happened. The important thing is to deal with the current reality.
I do agree with President Biden that the -- that President Trump has taken one of the strongest economies in the world, in a 100 days, essentially taken a chainsaw to it. And now there's red lights, warning signs, and question marks, all over it. And he's taking a series of other actions that are very dangerous, including ignoring Supreme Court orders.
So, the burden's on the shoulders of all of us, not just those in elected office, but Americans, to stand strong for democracy, when we're getting ready to commemorate 2026, the 250th birthday of this nation. There's never been a more important time than to stand for democracy against overreaching executive power.
COLLINS: As the Democrats are kind of doing some soul-searching these days, do you think the former President's appearances are helpful to your party?
KAINE: You know I -- look, he has earned the right to say whatever he wants. Joe Biden, what an amazing and patriotic American, an amazing public servant, he's earned the right to say what he wants.
We are doing soul-searching. And I think, again, in recent days in the Senate, I've been able to put some bills on the Senate floor that even some Republicans have stood up and said, Yes, you're right, the Article I branch needs to check against executive overreach. And even Republicans are now joining me in those efforts.
Democrats, we need to -- we need to focus our efforts. One of the things that President Trump does is a million things every day, and then that can distract your attention. The economy is what we ought to be focusing on, as well as cuts to programs that matter the most, to the most people, like Medicaid, Medicare and Social Security.
COLLINS: Senator Tim Kaine, thank you for your time. KAINE: You bet, Kaitlan. Thanks.
COLLINS: Up next. The White House wants a major upgrade to the nation's aging air traffic control system. The question is, what are they asking for? How soon could you see this actually happen?
We'll see former Transportation Secretary, Elaine Chao, here next, is my source.
[21:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Transportation Secretary, Sean Duffy, has had his hands certainly full since he was confirmed to the job in late January.
A deadly crash here in Washington, planes catching on fire while on the tarmac, collisions on the runway, all of those have left Americans deeply concerned about their safety when boarding flights these days.
The latest challenge we've seen playing out is this meltdown that's been underway at Newark Airport, in New Jersey. Air traffic controllers, screens and radios went out for up to 90 seconds there, in recent days.
And today, Secretary Duffy announced a dramatic overhaul to the nation's entire air traffic control system, as President Trump called in to voice his support.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
D. TRUMP: I'm sorry what you're going through with the terminals, but we're going to get them fixed up. And I imagine Sean's been telling you that. And I was going to do that in my first month of my second term, but my second term got delayed four years, unbelievably.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:35:00]
COLLINS: Now this plan that the Secretary rolled out is quite ambitious. It includes updating 4,600 air traffic control facilities, nationwide, replacing about 600 different radars, and also rebuilding six air traffic control centers. What could be more ambitious is the timeline, the goal to get it all done in three to four years.
My next source tonight knows a lot about this. She served as the Transportation Secretary in the first Trump administration, and was Labor Secretary under President George W. Bush. And Elaine Chao joins me now.
It's so great to have you here, Secretary.
ELAINE CHAO, FORMER TRANSPORTATION SECRETARY, FORMER LABOR SECRETARY: Thank you for having me. COLLINS: Obviously, this is a huge undertaking that they are -- they are about to try to face. I wonder what you make of how challenging it will be to fix what we're seeing play out right now.
CHAO: Well, I think Secretary Duffy deserves a great deal of credit for just strongly addressing this issue. This is one of the most difficult issues in our country today, and it has been simmering for decades, and it has been so difficult to address it.
So when I was in office, we actually introduced a bill in 2017, that would take the air traffic controllers out of the FAA, and put it in its own independent status, with its own board, so that it would have much greater freedom in addressing procurement delays, in hiring, and also in addressing the facilities which clearly need a great deal of attention and investment.
COLLINS: What do you make of the three to four years' timeline? Because he's argued essentially that he's been given certain timelines, and he wants to speed that up. Understandably, they'd like to see this change when they're in office. But do you think maybe it's too ambitious? Or do you think it's doable?
CHAO: I think it's doable, depends on how you define success. This is a very, very complicated problem. Basically, the whole air traffic control situation is reduced to three major topics, factors.
One is, basically, personnel, air traffic controls -- controllers. We're missing about 3,000 air traffic controllers out of the 13,000 that we need as a nation.
And the second issue is, of course, technology. It just takes so long to procure the necessary equipment to make our system an updated one. I mean, we hear all these horror stories, about how outdated the equipment is.
And then, thirdly, there are so many facilities that, frankly, need to be looked at, and see whether some better reform or organization would really address this.
So unless we address all of that, I think it would be hard to really address the issues about delays. But again, what Secretary Duffy did today was very necessary, and it's a very important first step.
COLLINS: Yes, and the other aspect is getting Congress to approve all of this.
CHAO: Yes.
COLLINS: I mean, and this -- it didn't seem to be as maybe at the top of minds for everyone. House Republicans, including Sean Duffy, when you were the Transportation Secretary, voted against upgrades to the air traffic control system. It was a party line vote. They all voted against it.
One thing that has happened as we've watched all this play out is a bit of a blame game. And we've heard some people say, it's President Biden's fault, and Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg's.
CHAO: Yes (ph).
COLLINS: They were in office for four years. Obviously, President Trump and you were there before.
I wonder what you would say in terms of just, the state of where it is right now, and who's responsible for that.
CHAO: I think we should put the blame game aside. I mean, these are very important issues. The air traffic control system affects the economic vitality, the vibrancy of our economy. It affects productivity.
So I think we should just come together as a country, and gather the political will, to make these changes. And that includes all sorts of changes. Like, we don't have enough air traffic controllers. It used to be, prior to 2016, there was three -- there were many sources of people who can come in, as air traffic controllers, if they were part of the military, if they went to a college, and they had training there. But no longer.
And so, given what's happened, there is a tremendous washout of people who just don't make the final cut. And out of thousands of applicants, 36 successful candidates emerge at the end of the year.
COLLINS: Yes, it's such a--
CHAO: That's just so small.
COLLINS: --a highly-skilled position.
On this front, you were one of the longest-serving Cabinet secretaries--
CHAO: Yes.
COLLINS: --in the President's first term. Obviously, there's a lot of turnover, so that really says something. But you were there when the trade wars, the battles were happening, the first time around.
I wonder, given this time around, since we saw him announce that deal with the U.K., the framework of it today, what you make of his approach to tariffs this time around, because it's much broader than it was the first time.
[21:40:00]
CHAO: It is. And I wish that there was a better explanation of the grand plan. Because I think for us to be in conflict with our traditional allies, like Canada, like Mexico, and the Danes have been tremendous allies of the United States. So I think we can achieve the goal of equity, without putting so much conflict into our international affairs. And the tariffs are going to obviously result in increased prices to consumers.
COLLINS: How--
CHAO: That would take a little while. I mean, if you are -- even if you are -- if you are the OEMs, if you are an automaker, if you are a retailer, and your raw materials are being taxed or being levied with tariffs, you're not going to eat that. There's no way that a vendor or a manufacturer can eat that cost. So, they have to pass it forward, and that will add to the price of goods that we see in the country shuttle (ph).
COLLINS: Well, and part of this is we've seen such a slowdown in traffic coming into the ports and containers.
CHAO: Yes.
COLLINS: We were just speaking with someone, last night, about this.
And President Trump was asked about port slowdown today. And this is what he told reporters, inside the Oval Office.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: The traffic has really slowed.
D. TRUMP: That's good.
REPORTER: And now thousands of dock workers and truck drivers are worried about their jobs. Is that--
D. TRUMP: Yes, no, we lose -- that means we lose less money, you know. When I see that, that means we lose less money.
So when you say it's slowed down, that's -- that's a good thing, not a bad thing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHAO: I think a lot of activity, economic activity in the country has slowed down, primarily because there's such uncertainty. Businesses just want certainty. They can deal with all sorts of different scenarios. We're a very entrepreneurial nation. But what the business sector, the private sector, wants is certainty, so they can plan long- term. And that's hard to do when there is such uncertainty on the current tariff policies.
COLLINS: Yes, it seems quite difficult.
CHAO: Right.
COLLINS: For businesses.
CHAO: And so that's going to result -- that uncertainty is going to result in kind of a paralysis, where people are not going out, making long-term decisions because they want to hedge a bit, and they're a little concerned as to what's going to happen next.
And I've got to think that that kind of activity, this suppression, this concern, is going to result in lower economic activity. Although the jobs numbers look pretty good.
COLLINS: But some experts have said--
CHAO: 140--
COLLINS: --it's like kind of hiding in the data so far.
CHAO: Well, a 144,000 net new jobs have been created. Unemployment rate is still 4.2 percent. But the labor participation rate is still very low, and so that means a lot of people can come back in. Right now, it's about 62.6 percent. That's almost pre-COVID, very low.
COLLINS: I mentioned that you were one of the longest-serving Cabinet secretaries. You resigned in the final days over January 6, because you cited what you saw that day, and that you were a believer in strong democracies.
And so, I wonder what you thought -- because we just talked about this, this week, with the former Vice President, Mike Pence, when President Trump pardoned virtually everyone who was convicted because of January 6.
CHAO: And what did he say?
COLLINS: He said that he was essentially disappointed in it, because he had pardoned people who beat up cops that day.
CHAO: Well, I issued a statement on the day that I resigned, and I think it speaks for itself, that I was very saddened by the events of that day.
COLLINS: And I assume that means you don't believe those people should have been pardoned?
CHAO: Well, I've known -- I knew the people up on the Hill. They were my -- they're my friends. I've worked with them. I take great pride in having good relations with both sides of the aisle. And so, it was really sad.
COLLINS: What's your view in the biggest difference, maybe welcome or unwelcome, in how the first term operated, and how the second Trump term is going?
CHAO: It seems to me as if the second term, folks, appointees are much more sure-footed. They're much more aggressive, right out the gate. So they clearly have an agenda. They know what they want to do.
I think directionally, I don't think many Americans will argue that there is fraud and abuse in departments. The issue is, how do you make these reforms, and should it be done with a scalpel, or should it be done with a machete? And it takes skill to cut wisely, because there are so many layers of support, that federal servants do -- federal public servants do. So, it takes wisdom, and skill, and experience.
COLLINS: As a Cabinet secretary, do you think you would have had Elon Musk have as much influence over who you were cutting and what your budget looked like?
CHAO: I would not have liked it if, I were the Cabinet secretary. And I think they should be given their original authorities and responsibilities. They should make the cut, because they know the departments.
COLLINS: Secretary Elaine Chao, you have such deep experience, it's great to hear from you. Thank you for coming on tonight.
CHAO: Thanks for having me.
COLLINS: Great to have you.
Up next here. Speaking of prosecutors, here in Washington, President Trump just picked a very well-known name to be the D.C.'s top prosecutor. It is another personality from Fox News. We'll talk about it with our legal sources, next.
[21:45:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Breaking news tonight, as President Trump says he has now picked Fox News host, Jeanine Pirro, to be the next interim top prosecutor in the nation's capital.
[21:50:00]
Citing Pirro's work as a judge and a prosecutor, in Westchester County, New York, that he said showed that she is, quote, "Incredibly well qualified for this position, and is considered one of the Top District Attorneys in the History of the State of New York. She is in a class by herself."
The backstory here is the President today, in the Oval Office, live on television, backed off of his first choice for the role, Ed Martin, after he had been facing some really fierce and pretty rare pushback from Republicans on Capitol Hill, over his support for the rioters who stormed that very Capitol. It was a step too far for senators, like Thom Tillis.
Ed Martin may be down tonight, but he's certainly not out of a job. Period. The President also announced on Truth Social that Ed Martin will take on three new roles at the Justice Department. Most notably, the one that caught my eye, Pardon attorney. Ed Martin has previously supported Trump's mass pardons for January 6 rioters, including those who were convicted of assaulting police officers that day.
My source tonight is the former federal prosecutor, Elliot Williams.
And Elliot, when you look at this pick, if you know Trump and you've covered him, you're not surprised by his pick of Jeanine Pirro. But I do think some people say, OK, she's on TV. The President, yes, cited what her legal experience is. But she hasn't had a law enforcement job in--
ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Two decades.
COLLINS: Two decades?
WILLIAMS: 20 years. I think it was 2005 when she left being prosecutor.
And we should respect her experience. She's an elected -- a former elected, and was a career prosecutor for a while. But that's it.
And if you look at the 20 years since then, she has demonstrated a willingness to step out for the President of the United States in a role that really ought to be independent of the White House. And so it's sort of more of the same, because the pick before her was so terrible, she seems quite reasonable.
COLLINS: Well, and they were upset about what Ed Martin had said, in part, over the January 6 pardons.
But Jeanine Pirro was cited in that Dominion lawsuit against Fox News.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
COLLINS: I just want to remind people, maybe who don't know, or aren't familiar with her, some of what she had said during that period.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEANINE PIRRO, INTERIM U.S. ATTORNEY FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA: Why was there an overnight popping of the vote tabulation that cannot be explained for Biden?
SIDNEY POWELL, AMERICAN ATTORNEY: It is one huge, huge criminal conspiracy that should be investigated by military intelligence for its national security implications.
PIRRO: Yes, and hopefully the Department of Justice, but -- but who knows anymore?
The President's lawyers alleging a company called Dominion, which they say started in Venezuela with Cuban money, and with the assistance of Smartmatic software, a backdoor is capable of flipping votes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: When Fox News settled that case, they acknowledged statements that she made were false.
WILLIAMS: Yes, they were, at best, twisting the truth and, at worst, outright lies.
Now, the question is not just for viewers of a television network. For prosecutors in an office, that will be the person they're reporting to.
And we have to remember, these are very important management roles. There are hundreds of people. This is the biggest U.S. Attorney's Office in the country. How do you build faith among the people who work in the office, when your record, as a leader, is that? It's disgraceful and, quite frankly, an affront to the office.
COLLINS: What about Ed Martin becoming pardon attorney, the person who has -- who was a fervent backer of the -- I mean, I guess it makes sense for Trump to pick him--
WILLIAMS: Yes.
COLLINS: --that Trump would want someone who is in agreement with his pardons.
But what does that say about someone who typically holds that that role?
WILLIAMS: It's pretty bad, because the pardon attorney -- now, again, the pardon role in the Constitution, the President has it, can pardon anyone.
But the pardon attorney has long, for decades, maybe generations, advised the President on the process of pardons, and not necessarily given up-or-down decisions, but at least provided a legal backdrop to what the President did. So number one, it's another person who is likely to inject that level of personal look -- personally looking out for the President. And number two, it's just it's a lack of experience in the role that he has.
The other role, and we shouldn't sleep on his being Associate Deputy Attorney General, because those folks run the Justice Department, the folks that work directly under the Deputy Attorney General of the United States. And that's also a serious role, to have someone who just doesn't--
COLLINS: And it's not Senate-confirmed, right?
WILLIAMS: It's not Senate-confirmed. So, he can just do what he needed.
COLLINS: So, it's whoever -- whoever he wants.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
COLLINS: So he would be working under Pam Bondi, Todd Blanche--
WILLIAMS: Todd Blanche.
COLLINS: --Emil Bove, that whole squad?
WILLIAMS: Yes. And again, Todd Blanche, Deputy Attorney General. That's the office that really is the driver of the work of the Justice Department. And those eight or nine attorneys that serve the Deputy Attorney General really control what happens across the country.
COLLINS: Elliot Williams, thanks, as always, for your legal expertise on this.
WILLIAMS: Thanks, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: Up next. At the White House today, we saw a rare appearance by the first lady, Melania Trump. She was honoring another first lady. But it might be who wasn't there that says a lot.
[21:55:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: There was a rare public appearance at the White House today.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: First lady Melania Trump is not always a ubiquitous presence at the White House. She's not often seen very much.
But she's in two events here at the White House today, including just unveiling the U.S. postage stamp, honoring one of her predecessors, former first lady, Barbara Bush. You can see the stamp behind me, as we're standing here inside the East Room. She just delivered a speech about Barbara Bush's legacy.
MELANIA TRUMP, FIRST LADY OF THE UNITED STATES: Her message, which emphasized the importance of family and personal integrity, encouraged women to carve their own paths in life.
[22:00:00]
COLLINS: One of the Bush children was present, and spoke about what this means for their mom, and what it was like, and how she shaped her husband's time when he was at the White House.
But there was one notable absence, here at this event, this afternoon. Former President George W. Bush himself.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: Thank you so much for joining us.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" is up next.
