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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Trump Involved In Talks To Potentially Suspend Habeas Corpus; Newark Mayor Released After Being Arrested At ICE Facility; Pope Leo's Brother: "Oh My God, Rob's The Pope." Aired 9-10p ET
Aired May 09, 2025 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: It is not clear where it goes from here. This was in response to India's strikes that Pakistan said happened in the early hours, one of those strikes just a few miles from here, in an important air base in the capital.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Yes.
ROBERTSON: Two other air bases inside Pakistan hit. The gloves do seem to be coming off here, Anderson.
COOPER: Yes.
Nic, we'll continue to check in with you. Appreciate it.
The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST,: Straight from THE SOURCE, tonight.
New reporting on President Trump's involvement in a move that is being considered by the White House, which would mark an extraordinary escalation, in the President's clash with the judiciary, over deportations.
Plus, that dramatic scene that you saw playing out at an I.C.E. facility in New Jersey today, it ended with the sitting Mayor being handcuffed and arrested by federal agents. That Mayor was just released from another I.C.E. facility where he was held for several hours. He's my source tonight.
And to the world, he may be Pope Leo XIV. But to my exclusive source tonight, he's just Rob. The Pope's brother is here, and a sentence that we'll probably never say again.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
As we come on the air tonight, I have new reporting about how President Trump has been personally involved, in discussions happening inside the White House, about a new option that they are considering, to justify the rapid pace of their deportations.
What they're exploring potentially doing, and the key word here, I should note from our reporting is, potentially, is so rare that it's actually only been done four times in U.S. history, including during the Civil War and after the attack on Pearl Harbor. Habeas corpus is a legal procedure explicitly mentioned in the Constitution. It allows people to challenge the federal government, in court, if they'd been detained.
And one of the President's top aides today, Stephen Miller, confirmed publicly that the White House is exploring this extraordinary step.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEPHEN MILLER, WHITE HOUSE DEPUTY CHIEF OF STAFF: Well, the Constitution is clear, and that, of course, is the supreme law of the land, that the privilege of the writ of habeas corpus can be suspended in a time of invasion. So I would say that's an option we're actively looking at.
Look, a lot of it depends on whether the courts do the right thing or not. At the end of the day, Congress passed a body of law, known as the Immigration and Nationality Act, which stripped Article III courts, that's the judicial branch, of jurisdiction over immigration cases. So Congress actually passed, it's called jurisdiction-stripping legislation, it passed a number of laws that say that the Article III courts aren't even allowed to be involved in immigration cases.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now, a legal expert that I'm going to talk to in a moment says everything you just heard there, from Stephen Miller, is not correct. We'll ask Elie Honig why.
But I should note that on this premise of this being considered at the White House, as Stephen Miller did confirm there, we're told that President Trump has not explicitly mentioned habeas corpus, publicly. We have not actually heard from him say that in front of the cameras.
But it is something that he was referencing, when we heard from him less than two weeks ago, as he was asked about what he wants to do, when it comes to the nationwide court orders and injunctions against him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: There are ways to mitigate it and there's some very strong ways. There's one way that's been used by three very highly-respected presidents, but we hope we don't have to go that route. But there is one way that's has been used very successfully by three presidents -- all highly-respected -- and hopefully we don't have to go that way. But there are ways of mitigating that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now, while it's still unclear tonight if this is something that the administration is actually going to attempt to do. I should note that both the private discussions that we have confirmed here tonight, involving the President, and also what we're hearing from one of his top and most influential aides publicly, does show how this is under serious consideration, inside the West Wing at least.
My lead source tonight is The New York Times' White House correspondent, Maggie Haberman.
Maggie, obviously, it's no surprise to anyone that Trump has been frustrated by the courts. I mean, he says it publicly. He was tweeting about it this morning, I think. What do you make of the fact that this is even being considered inside the White House?
MAGGIE HABERMAN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, THE NEW YORK TIMES: So we have seen incredibly aggressive posture from this White House for some time, both from President Trump and Stephen Miller.
We know that in the prep before the administration began, Stephen Miller spent years, trying to figure out ways to get these plans enacted. Allies of the President figured out how to get lawyers who would help them arrive at a yes as opposed to a no. So I'm not surprised to hear them talking about this.
However, as you noted, what Stephen Miller said, a lot of it is not correct.
Number one, most of the courts, I think all of the courts, I don't think any court has agreed that the U.S. is under invasion. That is how it has been used, in the past, to suspend habeas corpus, regionally. And when Abraham Lincoln did it, it was actually quite controversial. Number one.
[21:05:00]
Number two, this absolutely would be challenged. I don't know how you would call it, Just for migrants. And the border is sealed. So, they have really undermined their own case, in a lot of ways. I think they do have some running room, politically, on this. But they will -- they may run out of it at some point.
COLLINS: Yes, that's a great point that you make there, about the border, because border crossing's at an all-time low due to President Trump's actions--
HABERMAN: Correct.
COLLINS: --and what they've taken. And obviously, he ran on this.
But if they're arguing that the border is, at this point, that crime is so low in the United States, but also that there is an invasion happening, a judge may see that and say, I'm not so sure about that logic.
HABERMAN: Right. And a number of judges, including a Trump-appointed judge from his first term, have already said that they are misreading, they are overstretching the statute on the Alien Enemies Act, which is what they have used for these controversial deportations.
Some of this might just be fear. A, it's a way to intimidate the courts, which we have seen Trump and Stephen Miller do, a lot of, they've been criticizing judges routinely and repeatedly.
It also might be to scare migrants and to get migrants to leave. We know that they are trying to get migrants to be willing to go on their own out of concern that they might be arrested.
But I don't know how well this would go, if they actually attempted it.
COLLINS: Yes, and one thing that we've seen change in how the President responds to questions on this is what he -- instead of just answering for himself, as he's done for years now, as you well know, he keeps turning to the attorneys.
HABERMAN: Right.
COLLINS: And he did so in this ABC interview, last month. I just want to remind people about how he answered that question.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TERRY MORAN, ABC NEWS ANCHOR & SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: The law requires that every single person who is going to be deported gets a hearing first.
D. TRUMP: Well--
MORAN: Do you acknowledge that?
D. TRUMP: I'll -- I'll have to ask the lawyers about that. All I can say is this: If you're going to have 21 million people, and if we have to get a lot of them out because they're criminals, we're going to have to act fast. We can't -- do you think we can give 21 million trials? Let's say each trial takes two weeks. Is that what you want us to do?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: That answer, paired with Stephen Miller arguing that due process doesn't apply to people who are not U.S. citizens, last week, stands out to me.
HABERMAN: Yes, and I think you're going to continue to hear that until there is clarity.
The Supreme Court doesn't agree with that. The Supreme Court, there have been a number of -- it's been very clear that the Supreme Court, in the past, believes that due process applies to immigrants. They are going to, I think, continue to try to press this, on a number of cases, and in a number of ways. They have been actively trying to get cases before the Supreme Court.
But what they are doing with some of what they're saying, in these various cases, in different jurisdictions, they say one thing in one courtroom, they say something different in another, that hurts their credibility once things start reaching the Supreme Court. So, again, I know they believe that, because they have a conservative super majority, it will go their way. It has, in a number of instances, over the last few years. Less so now.
COLLINS: And also with Amy Coney Barrett, who has earned--
HABERMAN: Right.
COLLINS: Not earned. She's gotten a ton of--
HABERMAN: Right.
COLLINS: --criticism from the MAGA-right over her -- how she's ruled, and what she's written and said on things.
HABERMAN: Right.
COLLINS: I just wonder, though, overall, in terms of how the administration is looking at this, politically speaking, as well, it's kind of one of the few areas, where people have broken with the President, in terms of if he's -- if he's abiding by the law.
There's been -- the bro podcasters who came out in support of him in the election, saying, I'm not sure if I'm totally comfortable with this, that they -- this step that they've taken.
HABERMAN: It's not only going to be bro podcasters, if they keep talking about suspending habeas corpus. It will be some Republican senators as well. It is not going to be every single Republican senator, but there will be some who are not going to be comfortable with that. Because, where's the line? If it is able to be invoked, sort of, whenever the President wants to claim something's an invasion, then where do you end?
And look, on immigration, as you said earlier, they had a big success on something Trump campaigned on, which was sealing the border. They did it almost immediately when they came in. They almost were too quick for their own good, because now they have continued to try to do other things, and they keep stepping on their own success.
COLLINS: Maggie Haberman, thank you for that reporting. As always.
HABERMAN: Thanks, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: Also here tonight, as I mentioned, former Assistant U.S. Attorney and CNN's Senior Legal Analyst, Elie Honig.
Elie, you told me earlier, when I asked you about Stephen Miller's comments, you thought his description there was wrong.
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY, SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NY: Yes.
COLLINS: Why?
HONIG: Dead wrong. Crazy dangerous. Let's start with the Constitution itself. What Stephen Miller says essentially is, The Constitution gives us the right to do this, to suspend the writ of habeas corpus, which, by the way, just means the ability to go to court to challenge a detention. He's saying, The Constitution tells us we can suspend that.
But if you look at the actual Constitution, Article I is a restriction. It says, We should not withdraw the writ of habeas corpus unless there is a rebellion, or an invasion, and the public safety is threatened.
Congress is -- the Constitution sets the bar incredibly high there, and the history bears it out, which you mentioned before. It's been invoked four times, right?
Civil War. OK, I think we can understand that. And as Maggie said, it was controversial then.
During Reconstruction, in a very narrow way, by the way, only in certain counties in South Carolina, to try to counteract the Ku Klux Klan.
In 1905, in the Philippines, when we had a hand in governing the Philippines, there was a real rebellion happening in certain regions.
[21:10:00]
And then -- what was the fourth?
COLLINS: Pearl Harbor.
HONIG: Pearl Harbor, right, right. And only--
COLLINS: That was the last time it was used. It was 1941.
HONIG: Exactly. 1944 (ph). And only again in certain areas of Hawaii.
So it's been used very carefully, in real invasions, narrowly geographically.
COLLINS: So I think the question is, if they're privately looking at this? And it's notable that the President referenced it a few weeks ago, and Stephen Miller basically confirmed it today. I mean, it at least speaks to the seriousness with which they are looking at it.
HONIG: Yes, I think it's chilling, frankly, that the President is discussing this behind-the-scenes. I mean, that is an incredibly dangerous line to cross.
Habeas corpus is, and this is the reason I think there's some Republican pushback to this, it is one of the most fundamental rights and protections that we have in this country. The right to go into court and say, I am being wrongfully locked up behind bars. If we are going to pull that right? That is a big deal. That's a red line.
COLLINS: OK. So, let's say they do decide to go forward with it-- HONIG: Yes.
COLLINS: --and they decide the justification's there.
It would basically be Congress -- and then Congress goes along with it -- Congress goes along with it. Congress and the White House telling the judicial branch basically that they are the decision-makers here?
HONIG: Yes. We're skipping you, Courts. Yes.
And that's another important point, by the way. If you look at the history and the way this is set up, the stronger legal belief here is that Congress has to actually suspend the writ of habeas corpus. The President cannot do it himself.
In three of the four times, everyone but the Civil War, it was actually Congress that did it. There's an opinion, from years ago, where Justice Scalia -- so this is not some liberal view. Justice Scalia said it has to come from Congress.
And by the way, if you look at where that provision is in the Constitution, it's Article I. That's what gives Congress its right.
So I think the first argument here is, You can't do this yourself, Mr. President. That has to be done by Congress.
COLLINS: And that's, as I was looking this up earlier, that's why Abraham Lincoln was challenged over this.
HONIG: Right.
COLLINS: Because when he invoked it, Congress was not in session.
HONIG: Right. Congress--
COLLINS: In that period.
HONIG: Yes, they didn't, yes.
COLLINS: But I do think -- I mean, Maggie mentioned some Republican senators may have an issue with this. We'll see. I mean--
HONIG: Yes.
COLLINS: --is there a chance that they go along with this?
HONIG: Gosh, I would be shocked if -- I mean, I -- to me, this issue transcends politics and ideology. And by the way, I think if they were to try it, and it was to end up in the courts, I think the Supreme Court knocks it down. I think it could be nine-zero, the Supreme Court knocking it down. That's how extreme--
COLLINS: Nine-zero?
HONIG: I think so. I think you could even get Thomas and Alito to vote against this. Especially if you look at Justice Scalia, what he said years ago. That's someone they look up to.
COLLINS: Yes. Well, and it's not clear they're going to take this step. But still extraordinary that they're even considering it.
HONIG: Yes.
COLLINS: Elie Honig, thank you--
HONIG: Thanks.
COLLINS: --for that legal expertise, and for texting it to me earlier when I had questions about this.
Up next. We have breaking news tonight, because our next source is the Mayor of Newark, New Jersey. He just was released from custody. He's there for hours. What led up to this remarkable arrest that you saw outside an immigration detention center today?
And later in the hour, we have a CNN Exclusive. What is it like to have your brother become the Pope? My source knows, because Pope Leo's brother is here tonight.
[21:15:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: The Mayor of Newark, New Jersey, was arrested outside a newly-opened immigration detention facility in his city today.
Mayor Ras Baraka had been protesting the opening of that facility, given the Trump administration is planning to use it as part of the President's plan to sharply increase the number of detention beds.
That's when this happened. The man you see there being arrested, wearing a brown coat and a hat, that is Mayor Ras Baraka. Witnesses say that the Mayor was arrested, after he tried to join a tour of the facility with three Democratic members of New Jersey's congressional delegation today.
There was yelling and pushing, after federal officials were blocking his entry. The Mayor, who is running for governor, was arrested after he had returned to the public side of the gates.
In a statement that came after that arrest, the Department of Homeland Security said that the lawmakers had not asked for a tour of the facility, and that as a bus carrying detainees was entering, quote, "A group of protesters," including two House members "stormed the gate and broke into the detention facility."
And Mayor Ras Baraka was just released from custody, and is my source tonight.
And Mayor, thank you for joining me.
Can you just describe what has been happening, over the last few hours while you were being held? MAYOR RAS BARAKA, (D) NEWARK, NEW JERSEY: Well, I mean, I just want to first say that the guys from Homeland Security were very respectful. They treated me with dignity, and I appreciate that. While I spent my last few hours in the holding area inside of the -- I believe, it's a detention facility that they have, here in the City of Newark, that the Homeland Security has, so.
It wasn't unbearable, but it was definitely a humiliating experience and uncomfortable for me overall. But, in the end, those guys did the best that they could to make me feel comfortable, and I appreciate that.
COLLINS: And you were there protesting the opening of this facility. I know this has been something that you have been arguing against.
Can you just take us back to what happened earlier today, when you showed up? You were there on the ground with other members of Congress who were joining you. And I mean, we've seen this dramatic scene play out. Tell me how -- what happened, from your perspective?
BARAKA: Well, I'm going to say as much as I can without violating what they asked me to do in court.
But I actually didn't come there to protest. I was there that morning with the Fire inspector, trying to serve them, as we've been doing for the last few days. We're in court with them now. The Fire inspector usually puts a tag on a gate, and we leave. This happens every day.
[21:20:00]
At 1 o'clock, the Congresspeople, Menendez, McIver and Bonnie Watson Coleman, Congresspeople from the State of New Jersey, was going to into the -- into the facility, and they said that they had been granted entry into the facility, and was having a press conference afterwards. I came to attend the press conference, as I was asked to.
Obviously, I.C.E. made -- after a while, made a determination, after somebody came and said that we shouldn't be there, and began to -- after they told us to leave, we left, and they began to arrest -- try to arrest me. I shouldn't say, Us. They targeted me, and came after me specifically and arrested me.
COLLINS: Alina Habba, who, just for people who may not be familiar, she's President Trump's former attorney. She is now the interim U.S. attorney in New Jersey, in your state. The way she puts what happened today is she is accusing you of ignoring multiple warnings, from Homeland Security Investigations, to remove yourself, and says that you chose to, quote, "Disregard the law."
Is that true? Had there been warnings? What had happened?
BARAKA: Well, absolutely not. I mean -- I mean, we could -- we could -- the reality is, Alina Habba wasn't there. The U.S. attorney wasn't there. She doesn't know what happened. Clearly, that is not the context of what happened. I was there for over an hour in that space, and nobody ever told me to move. I was in there for over an hour. Not a single person, not an officer from I.C.E., not any of the security guards, nobody told me to leave that place. Somebody from Homeland Security came in the end, and began to escalate the situation, and we wound up being where we are today. And that's, frankly, the extent of it.
I didn't go there to break any laws. I didn't break any laws. I was there, as the Mayor of the City, exercising my right and duty as an elected official, supporting our Congresspeople, preparing for a press conference that was supposed to happen there. I did not enter that place unlawfully. I did not break any laws. And so, all of that is incorrect.
So she was not there, so she should get some better information.
COLLINS: How did it get so heated? I mean, you can watch this playing out, and we see you, and everyone starts shoving, people start yelling. What did the Homeland Security official that you said came up, and the first one who tried to arrest you, what--
(CROSSTALK)
BARAKA: Well, they tried to -- they tried to arrest me. As you can see, he tried to arrest me. As you can see, I'm calm. I'm not doing anything. I'm just walking. We got out of the gate. They, I guess, made a decision to come around the gate, after we left, to arrest me outside of the gate. So they did that.
They arrested me outside of the gate. I -- obviously protesters, and the Congresspeople were upset. They tried to intervene. And so, we -- I thought it would be better for us to just go ahead with these guys. And so we did not cause further kind of disruption there.
COLLINS: Were you trying to go into the gate?
BARAKA: No, I was already inside. I didn't have to try to go in.
COLLINS: OK. Because--
BARAKA: I was there for about over an hour.
COLLINS: I wonder what you -- you've been in detention. So you've been -- being held, so obviously you haven't seen any of the coverage.
The response from others, including some people inside the administration, is pointing to the fact that you're a Democrat, and you're running for governor in your state, and accusing you of basically conducting a publicity stunt. And I wonder what you would say to them tonight.
BARAKA: Well, I think the publicity stunt is this idea that we should violate the court orders, violate the Constitution of the United States, that we should run rough shot over state and local laws.
The reality in America is that if we're having a dispute, then we settle it in a court. We were having -- the City of Newark has a dispute with GEO, about a certificate of occupancy, about them allowing our inspectors in the buildings, health inspectors and fire inspectors, who they've been rejecting every day. Every day we go there, we put the thing on the door and we leave.
We're in court right now. They have a -- they dispute that. They dispute that they should have updated certificate of occupancy. They haven't had one in 20 years. We say that they need one because the local law demands that, that they have to get a change-of-use. They dispute that, and that's their right to dispute it.
But the person that settles that is a judge in a court of law, not the President of the United States, not the U.S. Attorney, not I.C.E. or Homeland Security. That is solved by a judge, here in this state, and they even moved it to federal court, so the judge has to weigh in on this, and a magistrate. They can't just take matters into their own hands, and do what they want, extra legal action outside of the courts, and that's exactly what's going on here.
COLLINS: What's your understanding of what happens next here? Were there conditions to your release? What was discussed, before you left today?
[21:25:00]
BARAKA: Well, I mean, I obviously was charged with federal trespassing, and, you know -- which is a Class C misdemeanor. But going through this is just really humiliating and painful. But the reality is, this is what -- this is what democracy is, right?
And so, we are in dispute here, and we're just living in a time period now where if you are opposed to the ideas of people, you could be threatened with arrest or intimidation, and that's exactly what's happening. And that's not the America that we want to be in. That's not the America that people chose to move thousands of miles from around the world to. This is not this place. And they're turning it into an authoritarianist government.
COLLINS: Do you have any regrets about how today happened?
BARAKA: No, I don't have any regrets at all. I went down there to support my Congresspeople. My congresswoman from my district, Congresswoman Bonnie Watson Coleman as well, who is like a mother to us here, and Congressman Menendez, who's also from our district. I went down there to support them in the press conference. And I would do it again.
I have a right to go to those facilities, as the mayor of this city. Fire inspector has a right to be on those facilities. And it is not federal property. Is, in fact, private property. GEO is privately- owned. It's a private prison that these people are getting $63 million to do this work, and they have to abide by local laws. That's just a fact. I don't care what our political differences is. They still have to abide by the law.
COLLINS: Mayor Ras Baraka, I know you've had quite an eventful few hours. Thank you for joining us so quickly after your release tonight.
BARAKA: Appreciate it. Thank you.
COLLINS: Now, just to take you behind-the-scenes, for a moment, we had actually booked the Mayor before that happened today, to talk about this story, what happened at Newark Airport, or, I guess, I should say, happened again, at Newark Airport. Air traffic controllers there lost radar displays for 90 seconds, this morning.
This is what that sounded like, as controllers in the tower were explaining to a FedEx pilot what was going on.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLER: FedEx 1989, I'm going to hand you off here. Our scopes just went black again. If you care about this, contact your airline and try to get some pressure from them to fix this stuff. New York departure now. 120.8.
FEDEX 1989 PILOT: 120.8. Sorry to hear about that, FedEx 1989. I'm switching, good luck guys.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now, a similar 90-second outage happened last week at the exact same airport. That is what led to at least five controllers taking 45 days of trauma leave, after that incident, which then created a staffing shortage that canceled or delayed more than a 1,000 flights.
Those two incidents are different when it comes to the timing and the number of planes and flights that were impacted.
But the second instance happened today, after we heard from the Transportation Secretary, just yesterday, Sean Duffy, as he was calling on Congress to provide the billions, he says, it will take to do a major overhaul of air traffic control technology, across the United States.
Up next for us here tonight. We have a CNN Exclusive for you that you are not going to want to miss. The world is still getting to know the newly-elected Pope Leo XIV. But my next source has known him in the way that only a sibling can. Pope Leo's brother joins me right after this.
[21:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, there are only two people on the planet who can say, their brother is the Pope. I'm going to speak with one of them in just a second.
Today, I should note, the boy who grew up on Chicago's South Side stood in the Sistine Chapel, as Leo XIV, speaking off the cuff, and at least initially, in English. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POPE LEO XIV, HEAD OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH: As we celebrate this morning, I invite you to recognize the marvels that the Lord has done, the blessings that the Lord continues to pour out upon all of us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: The reality of leading the planet's 1.4 billion (ph) Catholics is a long way from the young priest who blessed his mother, after he was ordained, or the White Sox fan who was in the stands, as you can see from this amazing photo, at the 2005 World Series. Yes, that's him right there.
The whirlwind change from being one of the many Cardinals, to the one and only Pope, was captured by the Associated Press, when one of his brothers checked his FaceTime, and this happened.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN PREVOST, BROTHER OF POPE LEO XIV: Oh, he's called for two hours already.
(FACETIME RING)
POPE LEO XIV: Hello, why don't you answer your phone?
J. PREVOST: Well, first you need to know you're on the air right now. This has been going on since 11 o'clock this morning. This is the first time I'm hearing that this thing rang. And we are being filmed and recorded.
POPE LEO XIV: Right now?
J. PREVOST: Right this very minute.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My source tonight is Pope Leo's brother, Lou Prevost.
And it's great to have you here, sir.
Because obviously to the world, he is now Pope Leo XIV. But to you, he's Rob. I don't even -- what was it even like to find out--
LOUIS PREVOST, BROTHER OF POPE LEO XIV: Rob, yes.
COLLINS: --that your brother is the Pope?
[21:35:00]
L. PREVOST: It was shocking, as much as you know -- we used to joke around about it. But when it became reality, it was like, Oh my God, Rob's the Pope. What happened? Is this a dream? And it's real.
And yes, total shock, speechless. I can't express to you, all the feelings that came across when they read his name, and then when he made his appearance on the balcony, and saw him. It brings tears to my eyes to see him, and happiness and joy, inside is just things are springing up, feeling just like wired. It's just a phenomenal feeling. It's fantastic. I'm happy for him.
But there's the other side that you saw, my brother, John, trying to get ahold of him. And he did get through to him, surprisingly. I haven't been able to. But then, I'm -- those two are closer together age-wise, and spent more time together than I did. I went off into the military. And they traveled the world together, while they were in college. So, they're probably a little closer together than I am with him. But we still used to talk on a weekly basis, anyway.
COLLINS: What are you going to say to him, when you do talk to him?
L. PREVOST: And hopefully we'll get to talk again.
COLLINS: I mean, how do you congratulate a sibling who just became the Pope?
L. PREVOST: I'm probably going to say -- I'll have to keep it clean here -- something like, What have you done? You've ruined my life. I mean. It's, We told you this would happen. Why did you -- why did you do this?
No, I'll give him -- I'll give him grief a little bit, but I'll obviously wish him all the best and congratulations. If I'm not there, at the moment, doing that, reach out and hug him and move -- push him around a little bit, like the little brother, Get away from me.
But no, it's an honor to even be thought of as, It's the Pope's brother. I am the Pope's brother. And my mind -- my mind is still blown.
COLLINS: It sounds like it's just sinking in for you.
L. PREVOST: Yes, it's going to take a while. The shock, the initial shock, hasn't worn off. I don't know that it ever will, because this is going to go on, I assume, for the rest of his life. He's going to probably be the Pope--
COLLINS: But you know what I love is that--
L. PREVOST: --barring any weird things, but. Yes, go ahead.
COLLINS: Siblings always tease each other growing up.
L. PREVOST: Yes.
COLLINS: You used to tease him actually, about being -- going on to potentially even be in this position.
L. PREVOST: Yes, of course. Because you probably heard on somewhere, one of these interviews, or Reddit, when we were growing up, when I would play with them, and we'd be outside playing, we used to play like boys and play boys' games, whether it was sports, or Cops and Robbers, Cowboys and Indians, whatever it might be, Rob liked to play priest.
And it's, What? What are you doing? Why are you doing this? We want to go shoot people, like, get the -- get the Indian kids.
And he -- No, no, I have to say mass first.
And we go down in the basement. He'd say -- he'd do his pretend saying mass, pass out holy communion with the Necco Wafers. If you know what those are. I don't know if you're old enough to remember those. But it was -- it was his thing. He was -- he's always been -- had that calling since he was probably 6- or 7-years-old, and kind of knew from the start--
COLLINS: Yes.
L. PREVOST: --he's going to go into the priesthood. He's going to become a priest.
I wouldn't have guessed, back then, that even though some people said, That guy's going to be a Pope, one day.
And I'm like, Where do you get that from?
I don't know, but multiple people had said it.
COLLINS: Yes.
L. PREVOST: Neighbors, couple of -- couple of nuns at school, Robert's going to go places in the church, he could be Pope. And we all laughed and made fun of them at that point, but.
COLLINS: They were right.
L. PREVOST: Here we are and he--
COLLINS: Lou, people are so fascinated--
L. PREVOST: He's the Pope.
COLLINS: --when there's a new pope. Yesterday, everyone was wanting to know what team he cheered for.
What is your brother like? What does he -- what does he like? Does he like certain kind of music, movies? I mean, how would you -- what would you describe -- how would you introduce him to people?
[21:40:00]
L. PREVOST: He's my brother. He's my stupid little brother, you know? He's -- you saw. I don't know where they found that picture of him at the White Sox game.
COLLINS: Yes.
L. PREVOST: That blew me away when I saw that. He's a White -- he's a Sox fan. He's obviously now into soccer, since he's been in South America and in Italy so much. They don't play so much baseball. It's, soccer is the big thing. So I know he's into watching soccer.
A couple times we've talked, he's, I'm watching the game.
What game?
Oh, the soccer game between Peru and Argentina. Or whatever it might be.
But I'm sure if he came back, and he had a chance, he'd try to go to a Sox game. And he's probably still a Sox fan deep down inside.
He's just a down-to-earth guy. He likes to talk with people. I wouldn't say he's like, super outgoing, but he has no problem with talking to people. He's a peacemaker. He can communicate with people like me, people in high political positions, whether in the U.S., or in Peru, or in Italy, whatever country he's been to. He's talked to a lot of world leaders. He's able to talk to them at their level. He's able to talk--
COLLINS: Yes.
L. PREVOST: --like he has been -- you know, he's spent his life talking to the poor people in Peru, and guiding them, bringing them into the church. So he's multi-talented, multi -- versatile, multi- lingual. But yet, he's still a down-to-earth human guy. He's a guy.
COLLINS: Yes.
L. PREVOST: He's, is what he is. I don't -- I don't know how else to describe him. He's--
COLLINS: I think you described him perfectly.
L. PREVOST: You need something? You call him, and he'll do it.
COLLINS: Well, and now he is--
L. PREVOST: I try. It's hard.
COLLINS: An incredibly high calling.
I know you must be a very proud, even if surprised, older brother. Lou, it's so great to have you. So, thank you for coming on and to talk about your brother. And when you get in touch with him, let us know.
L. PREVOST: All right. We'll try. I'm waiting to hear. I hopefully will hear this weekend, something. They'll either call, or do that, whatever my other brother was doing with him, on the FaceTime, or whatever, somehow.
COLLINS: Yes.
L. PREVOST: We're hoping to hear something, because we're trying to figure out when we should go there.
COLLINS: Yes.
L. PREVOST: And so, we're hoping he calls and says, You can come on this time, and I'll have this day available for you.
But at this point -- and that's really, that's one of the -- one of the negative things is, will we ever see him again? Will we be able to have that brother relationship anymore, that -- or will he be too preoccupied with being Pope.
COLLINS: Yes, you'll be -- you'll be sharing him with the world now.
L. PREVOST: That's right.
COLLINS: You'll be sharing him with the world.
L. PREVOST: That's the downside.
COLLINS: I'm sure he'll always make time -- always make time for his brothers.
Lou, thank you so much. Great to have you tonight.
L. PREVOST: We hope so, yes.
COLLINS: Thank you so much.
L. PREVOST: All right. You're welcome. Thank you. Yes. Bye-bye.
COLLINS: Amazing.
Up next here. We have another great story for you. It is a story of Lilly Ledbetter's fight for equal pay, and it's now going to the big screen. Patricia Clarkson, the Emmy and Golden Globe winning actress, is in that starring role. She's my source next.
[21:45:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Miss Ledbetter was consigned to a career as a second-class employee only because she is a woman. That cannot be the law, and it isn't.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You knew you were being paid less than your male counterparts. You waited to retire before suing.
PATRICIA CLARKSON, AWARD-WINNING ACTRESS, "LILLY": (As Lilly Ledbetter) You really believe I chose to work 20 years knowing I was being cheated and discriminated against just so I could wait to sue? Does that make any sense?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: The new film, "Lilly," hits theaters nationwide today, and it features who you just saw there, the award-winning actress, Patricia Clarkson, as Lilly Ledbetter, who led a years-long crusade for equal pay.
In 1999, Ledbetter sued Goodyear Tires, her employer of 19 years, after learning she'd been making as much as $2,000 a month less than what men in the same role were getting.
The movie follows her battle, all the way to the Supreme Court, in a case that they ultimately lost. But in 2009, Congress passed the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act, a landmark bill that President Obama signed into law, with Ledbetter by his side, that helps protect a workers' right to fight wage discrimination.
And my source tonight is the star of "Lilly," Patricia Clarkson.
And it is so amazing to have you here.
CLARKSON: I am so thrilled to be here.
COLLINS: One, I love this because she is from Possum Trot, Alabama, which is one of my favorite parts of her story.
But I remember first hearing about what happened to Lilly Ledbetter, and it stayed with me, because she had such a story of just being a normal person who became enmeshed in a major fight.
CLARKSON: Yes, she is a wonderful ordinary citizen who rose to an extraordinary height. And it was all her. I mean, she had great help along the way. But she -- this is what happened. She's just a great, amazing American citizen, who fought grave injustice.
COLLINS: How did you approach this? I mean, what did you go into this role thinking? Was it an immediate yes for you?
[21:50:00]
CLARKSON: I'll tell you this. I was offered this part. I was in London. I was shooting. And I got the call from my agent, who said, Patty, you've been offered Lilly Ledbetter.
And I inhaled, and I said, Oh my god, Chris (ph). I said, I'm in the middle of shooting, I'm crazy, but this is going to be a very fast Yes, I promise you.
And I grew up in a house of five daughters. I mean, I have four older sisters. My mother ran the City of New Orleans under the great Mayor Mitch Landrieu. We were all -- I mean, none of my sisters are Pope. I know I'm--
COLLINS: You're following a tough sibling.
CLARKSON: But they're all very -- they're all very, very, very accomplished, and so was my mother. So Lilly Ledbetter was a titan in our house, we're all working women.
And so, to be offered, it was like a calling, it was a moment. And I've had a long career, and I've played some, a few unsavory characters. My mother started crying, when I told her that I was going to play this character.
COLLINS: Oh.
CLARKSON: And she said, Oh, Patty, you're going to -- you're going to play this remarkable woman, and you're going to finally be in a movie everybody can see.
COLLINS: That's amazing, actually.
CLARKSON: But it was a very emotional journey for me.
COLLINS: Yes.
CLARKSON: Because Lilly required the best of me. And often, as actors, I had to take her from on high, put her feet on the ground, because you can't play someone from on high. You have to see them equally and -- but I -- it was -- it was just one of the greatest moments of my life to take on this incredible woman, but keep her, from Possum Trot, Alabama.
She grew into this role. She was just an ordinary citizen, a wonderful woman, who was trying to make a better life for herself, and went to work at 40.
COLLINS: Yes.
CLARKSON: A lot of women are getting just started at 40, 50, 60, and that's what was happening with her.
She went to work at 40, to make a better life for her children, and then worked her you-know-what off at a tire factory, worked her way up to manager, found out, made trouble, you know, good trouble.
And then they put her, at 60, back on the line, to lug tires, at 60.
I did it for a couple of days. I thought like have an ambulance standing behind.
COLLINS: Wow.
CLARKSON: It was -- it was brutal, brutal. Those tires are heavy.
COLLINS: When you were playing her, did any of her experiences that she went through remind you of anything that you've gone through? I mean, you're a very successful actress. But pay disparity in Hollywood is real too.
CLARKSON: Oh yes, I had -- you know, I was paid far less than a lot of men in very similar supporting parts. Or here I was, maybe the only woman in the film, and I wasn't being paid. Oh, no. Hollywood never had a commitment to help women, early on. It's changed, though. It's radically changed. And we still have a ways to go, but it's way better. It's much better.
COLLINS: Patricia Clarkson.
CLARKSON: Yes.
COLLINS: It is so great to have you here. And I can't wait to see it.
CLARKSON: I'm just thrilled. I'm thrilled to be here.
COLLINS: Thank you so much for joining us.
CLARKSON: Thank you. Thank you.
COLLINS: And for doing Possum Trot, a great service.
CLARKSON: A great city.
COLLINS: It's great to have you.
CLARKSON: And the great Lilly Ledbetter.
COLLINS: Thank you so much.
Don't go away. Up next, we have a behind-the-scenes look at a consequential week at the White House for you.
[21:55:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: It was another newsy week in Washington, including the President congratulating the first American Pope.
Here is what we witnessed behind-the-scenes while reporting from the White House.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: If you had told me eight years ago that I would be interviewing former Vice President Mike Pence, while President Trump was back in the White House and not there alongside him, a lot of people would have been surprised by that.
So you think he's wrong on tariffs?
MIKE PENCE, LAWYER AND FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I do think this version of tariff policy is not a win for the American people.
SEAN DUFFY, UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF TRANSPORTATION: Sean Duffy here.
COLLINS: We just heard from Transportation Secretary, Sean Duffy, as Newark Airport in New Jersey is in total meltdown right now.
DUFFY: The new runway is going to come online, or the runway under construction is going to come online in the middle of June.
COLLINS: Hey, Control Room.
Essentially what we had been hearing from senior officials, including the Vice President, was that they wanted Pakistan to cooperate with the investigation that India was conducting into that terrible attack.
REPORTER: Are you open to pulling back your tariffs in order to get China to the negotiating table?
D. TRUMP: No.
COLLINS: When President Trump was just asked in the Oval Office about claims being made by China, that it was the United States that initiated those talks, the President said that China ought to go back and study their files.
JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Has the White House weighed in yet on the Fed's interest rate decision?
COLLINS: The White House's position here is unchanged, Jake. I don't think they're surprised that the interest rates were not actually lowered.
(APPLAUSE)
COLLINS: First lady Melania Trump is not always a ubiquitous presence at the White House. She's not often seen very much. But she is in two events here at the White House today, including just unveiling the U.S. postage stamp, honoring one of her predecessors, former first lady, Barbara Bush.
MELANIA TRUMP, FIRST LADY OF THE UNITED STATES: The unveiling of this commemorative stamp honors Barbara Bush's contributions as first lady.
COLLINS: President Trump came out after that white smoke emerged from Saint Peter's Basilica, in Rome, to announce that a new pope had been chosen, to comment on the selection of the first American Pope.
[22:00:00]
D. TRUMP: What greater honor could there be? And we are a little bit surprised, but very happy. It's just a great -- absolutely great honor.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: And a programming note, before we go. Next week, THE SOURCE will be hosted live, from the Middle East, as we are covering President Trump's first major trip abroad. Be sure to tune in, each night, next week, 09:00 p.m. Eastern.
Thank you so much for joining us, here tonight.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" is up next.
