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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Comey Interviewed By Secret Service Over Instagram Post; Justices Block Trump From Using Wartime Law To Deport Migrants; DHS Vets Reality Show Where Immigrants Compete For Citizenship. Aired 9- 10p ET
Aired May 16, 2025 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Sure. Let's.
HARRY ENTEN, CNN CHIEF DATA ANALYST: It actually went up. She's a billionaire and even more of a billionaire. You know who else is a billionaire?
COOPER: No.
ENTEN: Bruce Springsteen's also a billionaire.
COOPER: There you go.
ENTEN: They're both crying all the way to the bank.
COOPER: All right. Harry Enten, thanks very much.
ENTEN: Thank you.
COOPER: Very talented, both of them.
ENTEN: Yes.
COOPER: Quick programming note, about this weekend. Don't miss "DR. SANJAY GUPTA REPORTS: ANIMAL PHARM," his years-long investigation on an experimental technique that could change organ transplantation. This is fascinating. At Sunday, 08:00 Eastern and Pacific, right here on CNN.
That's all for us. The news continues. I hope you have a great weekend. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: After a whirlwind tour through the Middle East, the President of the United States is on his way home, and lashing out at a longtime nemesis. Not Taylor Swift or Bruce Springsteen. But James Comey, who was just questioned by the Secret Service.
I'm Kaitlan Collins, in Abu Dhabi. And this is THE SOURCE.
And tonight, we're here on the ground, in the United Arab Emirates, where President Trump has just wrapped up the first major foreign trip, of his second term, with Air Force One due to land, back in Washington, at any moment.
During that long flight back, the President has been focused on breaking news back at home, including former FBI director, James Comey, who was brought in tonight for questioning by the Secret Service. We saw Comey, as he was leaving his Virginia home, to go to answer their questions, at a field office in D.C.
And chances are you probably know what this is about. Comey's since- deleted social media post, showing shells on a beach that spelled out 8647, meaning, 86 which usually means to get rid of something, and 47 as in the 47th President of the United States, who said tonight that he believes that was a threat.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: He knew exactly what that meant. A child knows what that meant. If you're the FBI director, and you don't know what that meant? That meant assassination. And it says it loud and clear.
And he's calling for the assassination of the President.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: We're told, Comey was interviewed voluntarily after being contacted by the Secret Service.
That decision on whether or not to ultimately charge him, which we don't know if it's going to happen yet, could lie with Jeanine Pirro, who is the new interim U.S. attorney in Washington.
My lead sources tonight are:
CNN's Chief Law Enforcement and Intelligence Analyst, John Miller.
And former Deputy Assistant Attorney General, Tom Dupree.
And it's great to have you both here.
John, you've been getting all the reporting on this. What are you hearing about what happened, during this questioning of the Secret Service, or of James Comey by the Secret Service tonight?
JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT & INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, very unusual, Kaitlan. The Secret Service came to his house, picked him up with the Deputy Assistant Special Agent in Charge, and along with Comey's lawyer, drove him to the Secret Service field office.
Remember, this is a former FBI director, former Deputy Attorney General of the United States, former U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York.
But he was brought in, and they were putting him through the standard set of threat questions. Where are you working now? Where do you reside? Do you have access to weapons? Do you own any weapons? Was this a threat to the President? Where did you come across these shells? What did you mean with that posting? Did you mean it as a threat?
And they dutifully recorded that interview, along with their investigation that goes with it, and they'll give that to the U.S. Attorney, either in Washington, D.C., or, just as likely, in North Carolina, where this beach and these shells allegedly were, to determine if it fits any statute which calls for a clear threat.
It's a crime to threaten the President of the United States, a specific crime, but it still has to be a clear threat. And this might not be that.
COLLINS: John, is any of this normal in your view? Is this typically how silly social media posts that obviously was in poor taste would be handled, in your view?
MILLER: Not in the slightest bit. As a former NYPD official who dealt with a very busy Threat Management Unit, we had far more specific threats that came in than this one, that were turned down by prosecutors, simply because they weren't a clear and specific threat.
If you look at the merchandise online, on Amazon, on eBay, on Etsy, you could have, any time during the campaign, bought and worn T-shirts that said 8646, meaning, Get rid of Joe Biden. Those items are still on sale. 8647, those items are on sale now.
The fact that they didn't investigate those companies, or the people who bought those items, or the people that wear those items, but they singled out James Comey with this fairly vague post, makes it look like a selective prosecution.
COLLINS: Tom Dupree, what are your thoughts, watching all of this play out?
[21:05:00]
TOM DUPREE, FORMER DEPUTY ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL: Well, my first thought is, So James Comey is back in the news.
Look, I mean, whether or not this was a true threat, this is clearly something that in exercise of wise judgment, he should not have done. I mean, it's kind of a juvenile joke at best. Maybe it crosses the line into criminal behavior.
But I think James Comey, of all people, should know that when it comes to making statements, or claims, or even jokes, that even come anywhere close to the line of threatening the President, that's just not a smart move. Particularly in this environment when Comey is someone who has already been identified by the Trump administration as possibly warranting investigation or prosecution. Kind of an unforced error of this magnitude, to me, is the real stunning takeaway from this whole scene.
COLLINS: Well, and John just mentioned that maybe, if charges were ultimately brought here, which seems unlikely, based on what you just said there, it could come out of North Carolina or Washington. And in Washington, we've covered this last week, the new interim U.S. attorney there. And I want you to listen to what Jeanine Pirro has said about Comey herself, before.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEANINE PIRRO, INTERIM U.S. ATTORNEY FOR THE DISTRICT OF WASHINGTON: He's a liar, he's a leaker and he's a leftist liberal.
Former FBI director, James Comey, was the head of his own crime family.
Jim Comey comes across as someone who was so wily and so calculating. He's a predator.
Holier than thou Jim Comey, and his band of conspirators.
He turned into a political whore, and he changed the nature of the FBI.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: What happens, Tom, if she is the one, Judge Jeanine Pirro, to make the call here on what happens next?
DUPREE: Well, you wish she would be more open and direct about how she feels about James Comey.
But look, the fact here is, is that the President himself has already spoken out on this. The President himself said, he personally viewed this as a serious threat of assassination. Members of his Cabinet have also said that's how they interpret it, they've called for his prosecution.
And all of those views are, of course, going to ultimately land on the desk either of Jeanine Pirro, maybe of Pam Bondi, but they're going to land on the desk of people who are not, shall we say, predisposed to liking James Comey in the first place.
Again, it's the sort of thing where, if Comey had given two seconds thought to what he was doing, possible consequences of this? You got to think, he would have just kept walking on the beach and not touched any of those seashells.
COLLINS: But -- yes, I think that's safe to say.
I want to bring in CNN Senior Political Commentator, Van Jones.
Van, what is your take on all this? Obviously, Trump and Comey have a very long history. Trump fired him. He's accused him of treason. What's your view of what's playing out?
VAN JONES, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER OBAMA ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL: It's the biggest waste of time. Nobody thinks that James Comey is going to go and get a shotgun and do something bad to Donald Trump. It's just stupid. Obviously, James Comey shouldn't have done it. Obviously, Donald Trump, having been shot at and hit once, is nervous. But he's not scared of James Comey. Nobody is scared of James Comey.
This is just a complete overreaction, show of force, and it's consistent with all the stuff the Trump administration is doing, just being a big bully, going after law firms, going after colleges, going after everybody, just to kind of show that, You can't mess with us. And it's kind of a, it sometimes feels almost like a mob boss mentality, coming out of the White House.
Leave James Comey alone. James Comey is not going to bother Donald Trump. Everybody knows that. This is a big waste of time.
COLLINS: Well, and on that front, we're hearing from top administration officials on this, Van, from the DHS Secretary, to the now FBI director, Kash Patel.
He posted this, back in 2022. It was depicting him, essentially using a chainsaw on his political opponents, people he didn't like. He actually was asked about this post, during his confirmation hearing. This is what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. SHELDON WHITEHOUSE (D-RI): Mr. Patel proclaimed, The manhunt starts tomorrow, and reposted a video depicting him taking a chainsaw to his political enemies.
Is that you, Kash Patel, re-Truthed, reposting that at the top of that page?
KASH PATEL, DIRECTOR, FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION: Senator, I had nothing to do with the creation of that meme.
WHITEHOUSE: Is that you reposting it, was my question.
PATEL: And that's me, at the top.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JONES: Yes.
COLLINS: Now, he later said in written answers, Van, that he was a private citizen when he shared that. But I wonder what you make of that, given what we are hearing from officials tonight.
JONES: Well, James Comey is a private citizen right now, and he's not doing anything remotely as great.
[21:10:00]
Listen, this is just an overreaction on the part of the administration, not because they're scared of James Comey. They got somebody, they don't like him. He's on the enemy's list. He did something stupid. So now, they're just all coming off the top row, and just trying to beat him up and make him -- you know, make an example out of him.
But this is a waste of time. We have actual real crazy people, who've got actual real guns, who might do anything to anybody, at any time. Can we focus on the real threats here?
I mean, if you're concerned-- and, by the way, Secret Service has a lot of protectees, and they are overstretched. It is hard to keep people in those roles, because you're away from your family. It's 24 hours, sometimes. We have a crisis in the Secret Service right now, and everybody knows it.
And instead of focusing on that, and making sure our protectees are safe from real threats, we're making sure that President Trump, the most protected person in the world, is protected from James Comey, who ain't bothering nobody, is not going to bother anybody. This, it means a complete farce. We shouldn't even be talking about it tonight.
COLLINS: Well, and on that, John Miller, we were talking earlier just about what this -- how this plays out, and what this means. And I just wonder what your view of, of how all this has played out, and what we're hearing from officials.
And people like Andy McCarthy, who is a very often-cited legal voice, for President Trump. He tonight, is saying, Yes, the post was dumb, but everyone's saying that it's a call for an assassination, it's moronic and inflammatory. Those were the words of Andy McCarthy tonight.
MILLER: Well, here is the words of DHS Secretary, Kristi Noem, who, of course, that's the agency that controls the Secret Service. Said, The DHS -- Secret Service interviewed disgraced former FBI director Comey regarding a social media post calling for the assassination of President Trump. They go on to say, they'll do everything they can to protect the President. This is an ongoing investigation.
But this doesn't say they're trying to analyze what that meant, or what Comey says it meant. It says, calling for the assassination. So this has been latched on to, in the talking points. That's the way it will be referred to, by people in the Trump administration, regarding this case.
But if that is the case, well, did they send the agents down to the beach to find the shells in the sand? Are they still there? Will they be swabbed for DNA? Are they going to be looking for the real killers? People who are really in the threat assessment business, look at this not as a serious matter. This is politics at its finest.
COLLINS: Well, speaking of politics, Van, I want to get your reaction tonight.
Because just released a few moments ago, was this audio. Former President Biden, when he sat down with the Special Counsel, Robert Hur. And this was published tonight by Axios. It just -- if you'll listen to it, you'll hear the President taking these very long pauses, as he struggles to remember some key details.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So during this time you were living in Chain Bridge Road, and there were documents related to the Penn Biden Center or the Biden initiative (ph) or the Cancer Moonshot, or your book. Where did you keep papers that related to those things that you were actively working on?
JOE BIDEN, 46TH U.S. PRESIDENT: Well, I, I, I, I, I, I don't know. This is what? 2017, 2018, that period?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
BIDEN: Remember, in this timeframe, my son is -- either been deployed or is dying. And -- and so it was -- and by the way, there were still a lot of people at the time when I got out of the Senate that were encouraging me to run in this period.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JONES: Yes, that's not so great.
COLLINS: Van, what goes through your mind when you hear that?
JONES: Oh, that I need another therapist to deal with the fact that we -- that my beloved Joe Biden, who I worked for with, a great honor, was not up to the job, and people must have known it.
That doesn't sound like -- I mean, look, anybody can get a little bit lost, trying to answer some of these questions. But that just doesn't give you confidence, doesn't sound like a Commander-in-Chief.
And I think I cannot wait for Jake Tapper's book to come out, and blow the lid off of who was hiding this from everybody. Those of us in the media, whenever we saw him, he was in pretty good shape. It seems like they were picking and choosing what days to show him to us, so we would be fooled into thinking that he was better than he was.
[21:15:00]
But this, I think, a lot of effort was done to keep this tape out of public view earlier, because he just sounds so bad.
COLLINS: Yes.
Van Jones. Tom Dupree. John Miller.
Great reporting tonight, John.
Thank you all for joining us here tonight.
Up next. President Trump is lashing out at the Supreme Court, after they made a key decision today on what he can do, when it comes to deporting migrants from the country. How is the President responding in all-caps? We'll show you next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [21:20:00]
(VIDEO - PRESIDENT TRUMP RETURNS FROM MIDDLE EAST TRIP)
COLLINS: You're looking at Joint Base Andrews. President Trump descending the steps of Air Force One, after he just landed back in Washington, after leaving here in the United Arab Emirates, earlier today.
And he's landing to news that the Supreme Court has just handed him a pretty big loss. His administration, for now, is barred from using that sweeping and controversial wartime law to quickly deport a group of Venezuelan migrants.
The President commenting on this mid-flight, saying, quote, The Supreme Court of the United States is not allowing me to do what I was elected to do. And, quote, This is a bad and dangerous day for America.
That law in question is the Alien Enemies Act of 1798. The court, in a seven-two decision, sent the case back to an appeals court, with this underlying legal fight that's going to continue to play out in multiple federal courts across the country.
Joining me now is Republican congressman, from Tennessee, Tim Burchett.
It's great to have you here, Congressman.
Because every justice that was appointed by President Trump actually agreed that the way that they were handling these removals did not pass muster. Do you think the administration needs to change the way that it's deporting these people?
REP. TIM BURCHETT (R-TN): Yes, but they didn't say they can't deport them. They just said they can't deport them under that section of the law.
And I wanted to correct you on something. They're not migrants. They didn't migrate here, legally. They came here, illegally. They are illegally here in this country. And to say that we can't deport people that are here criminally.
And you're talking about an invasion. If we had an invasion on our border, where 20 million people came across, I think people would be alarmed. Well, that's exactly what happened in the course of four years.
So, I think there's other avenues to deport them. And I -- and I am disappointed with Supreme Court. But it is the law of the land. So, we need to find another law that we can deport these people under.
COLLINS: Yes, and they didn't argue that the President can't deport people who are in the United States illegally. They just said, essentially, they need to have due process and do it -- do it the right way. But I want to ask you, because also that Trump -- the President is leading to news that your colleagues--
BURCHETT: Well that -- yes -- but by the way -- well that's -- that--
COLLINS: --in the House Budget Committee have blocked your party's bill, because it adds too much to the deficit. Is that a bill that you believe you are ultimately going to vote yes on? I know you were a no, earlier this week.
BURCHETT: Yes, we're going to review it and go back over it. Of course, there's always room for improvement.
The Democrats, they move in lockstep because they use the carrot and the stick. And if they don't, they'll literally have someone primaried against them. Pelosi would guarantee that.
Republicans are free-thinkers. We're allowed to do what we want to do, and what -- we represent our constituents, not the bosses on K Street, or our political power bosses. That just doesn't work in the Republican Party. And there's differences. But it's always like this, Kaitlan. Every time. It's like a -- I always tell people, It's like an NBA basketball game. Just wait to the last two minutes, and then tune in and see what happens.
You've got the SALT issue, that state and local taxes for the North that are Democrat-controlled states, where they tax them to death for all kinds of crazy things. And they're expecting states like Tennessee, which doesn't have an income tax which balances its budget, places like Tennessee and Florida and others, that do that, they're expecting us to supplement their income, instead of fixing their own problem. So that is a problem.
And people like yourself, on CNN, are saying that, that we're cutting poor people off of Medicaid. That is a lie. All we're doing is eliminate waste, abuse, fraud. We're taking folks that are -- that are here illegally. We're cutting them off.
We're saying, If you're -- if you're physically or -- or if you're a single mom with kids, we're not cutting you off. We're just making sure that you're going to have enough for the least amongst us. And that's what we're doing. And I think Americans should support that, instead of trying to demonize when we are trying to eliminate the waste, abuse and fraud.
COLLINS: Yes, I've never said that. I think I've raised questions about how Republicans are going to achieve their goals, and get what they want if they don't make those cuts? And so, Speaker Mike Johnson has said to wait and see what happens.
But I do ask, because tonight we saw Moody's downgrade the United States credit rating, and they cited, in part, tax cuts, if they happen, and also the deficit going up. And I wonder, if that concerns you, Congressman. They cited Republicans and Democrats, I should note, in this, because the deficit has been a problem for years.
BURCHETT: Yes.
COLLINS: I know you care about that. Are you worried about that tonight?
BURCHETT: I am. But they said over the next 10 years, under Trump's plan, that it could add $4 trillion to the deficit. But under Joe Biden, every 100 days, we added a trillion dollars. So you figure, 400 days, that's $4 trillion.
[21:25:00]
So, he's actually slowing the rate of our degradation down, if you will. And that's what you got to do. You got a car coming at you, you need it to go the other way? It's got to come to a stop at some point. And that's what President Trump is doing, and I believe that's what they're trying to do with this.
Does it go as far as I want? No, it doesn't. But that's just the way it works. Not everybody's going to be as conservative as I am. And not everybody is worried about our credit rating, and worried about spending money we don't have, which is what we've been doing the last four years. So every dollar we sent to Ukraine was borrowed.
COLLINS: Well I just--
BURCHETT: So we have to -- we have to be careful, and we have to be fiscally responsible.
COLLINS: I ask, because you're criticizing how President Biden and Democrats were spending. It was in 2012, four years before Trump was ultimately elected, that he posted, You get what you vote for. The U.S. credit rating is about to be downgraded once again.
What do you say to Republican voters who say, This is not what I wanted to happen and is why I voted for President Trump?
BURCHETT: It's better than it was. We're in it -- we're on a better trajectory than we were under Joe Biden. I mean, it's proven even. All economists will tell you that. But it's not as good as it needs to be, and I don't think it's as good as President Trump wants it to be. I think that it's -- but it's closer than we've ever been.
And when you have a three-person majority, we're basically one flu season away from losing the majority. And so, he's got folks in New York, and those areas, we do, Republicans, that Kamala Harris won by 14 or 15 points, yet the Republican congressman. So, you have to take all those things into consideration, and it's not just something we're going to steamroll.
COLLINS: Yes.
BURCHETT: That's not the Republican strategy, and it hasn't been. It's the Democrat strategy, and it works well for them. But it doesn't work well for us.
COLLINS: Congressman Tim Burchett, appreciate you bearing with us, with the delay. Obviously, being in Abu Dhabi, versus Tennessee, we have a little bit of a delay. But great to have you on. Thanks so much for your time tonight.
Up next. Apparently, this is an idea that is being floated and considered by the Department of Homeland Security. A reality show where immigrants would compete for citizenship. My source tonight is the producer behind this pitch. We'll tell you more after this.
[21:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: The Department of Homeland Security is currently reviewing a reality TV show pitch, where immigrants would compete for potential U.S. citizenship.
CNN got a look at the advance materials for the show. It has the working title, The American. Each episode would have a set of contests, like a heritage challenge, an elimination challenge, a town hall meeting, and then a final vote. The pitch promises that viewers will quote, Join in the laughter, tears, frustration, and joy of hearing contestants' back stories and be reminded of how amazing it is to be an American.
A spokesperson for the Department of Homeland Security confirmed to CNN that the show's pitch is in the beginning stages of the agency's vetting process, and added that it is one of many pitches for projects documenting the Department's operations that they're looking at.
My source tonight is the producer behind that pitch, Rob Worsoff. His previous reality TV credits include "Millionaire Matchmaker," "Duck Dynasty," "The Biggest Loser."
And it's so great to have you here, Rob.
Just to kind of walk through this, because I think some people may look at this headline and say, What exactly is it that you're pitching here?
ROB WORSOFF, PRODUCER PITCHING IMMIGRANT REALITY SHOW: I'm pitching the journey. I'm putting a face to immigration.
This is a great celebration of America. I'm an immigrant. I went through the process. It took me years. 20 years ago, I was like, that -- I heard about premium processing, which is a way to fast track things if you had enough money. And I was like, Why isn't that something we could lean into?
I actually pitched this under both Obama and Biden, and both administrations were receptive to that as well. But Alejandro Mayorkas got impeached right before I was able to move it up the chain under President Biden.
And here we are. I don't know, it's exciting.
COLLINS: So what happens if -- so like, what are the stakes? How does this work? If you lose, what happens? And if you win, what happens?
WORSOFF: Nobody moves backwards in this process. Everybody on our show is going to be a future American. They are all great candidates to be future Americans. They're all at some place in the process, and somewhere in line, just like I was. Sometimes you have to wait, like, years, two years, to get somebody to just look at your file. I'm offering the chance to skip to the front of the line.
But if you quote-unquote, Lose, and I don't think it's losing, by the way, you're just going back to your regular spot in line, so there's no real cost there. But what you're gaining, of course, is all sorts of exposure, or potential jobs, opportunities, and America will fall in love with you, because we're going to -- we're going to humanize everybody.
COLLINS: What would the challenges look like? What are you thinking?
WORSOFF: Well, my dream -- you know, obviously the network is going to decide. I'm like a chef. I make a menu, and the network gets to decide on the dishes.
[21:35:00]
But my dream is to do every episode in a different state, where we will celebrate that state. The challenges would be like -- they're placeholders for now. But it's like, if we're in New York, we're doing a pizza-making challenge. And if we're in Florida, we're doing a rocket-launching challenge. And if we're in California, we're doing a Gold Rush Challenge.
And I'm hoping that every episode ends with a town hall meeting, just like in a presidential election, where the people of Tennessee, let's say, will get to vote on which one of our future Americans they would most like to represent the State of Tennessee, and that's kind of how we'll tally things up. Nothing negative, only positive. And I think it'd be really fun.
COLLINS: How seriously do you think the Department of Homeland Security is taking your pitch?
WORSOFF: I think they're taking it seriously. I feel good about it. I'm not the Department of Homeland Security, so I can't tell you the whirlwind of the last 24 to 48 hours since my pitch document was leaked to somebody in the press. I don't know where they stand exactly now. But I feel like we're trending in a good way.
And I -- I look forward. I mean, I have interest from networks, I have interest from production companies to pair with, and I feel good about it.
COLLINS: You're behind some pretty successful shows. The other ones that I mentioned, people are trying to date millionaires, or lose weight in order to win prizes.
When it comes to immigration, obviously, the stakes are incredibly high, and a lot of immigrants, as you noted, are on a waiting list for a long time, and they're desperate to come to the United States.
I know you said, this isn't Hunger Games. But if someone is watching and thinks, making this a game show is trivializing this, what would you say to them?
WORSOFF: I'm really happy you're asking me that question. I was on the first iteration of "The Biggest Loser." I was not a senior member. I was just a story producer on it. But I was there.
And when "The Biggest Loser" was announced, there was vitriol coming from the press. They were saying, How are you going to fat-shame people? You're calling fat people, Losers.
And I would argue that the stakes there, Kaitlan, were as big, if not bigger, because people had heart disease and diabetes. And you were going to take people who were grotesquely overweight, and if they didn't perform well enough for you on your show, you were going to kick them out. And that was terrible.
And then, of course, when everybody watched the show, they went, Oh, of course, that's not the show that we were expecting. This is a wonderful show.
And anybody with half a brain, with a critical mind, thinking about this show for five seconds would, of course, conclude that it's not the Hunger Games, that it's not some mean-spirited thing that's trying to deport people. It's exactly the opposite of that.
I'm very fortunate and lucky and honored to be an American. And I want everybody to understand the process.
By the way, most Americans can't pass a basic civics test. And I want to bring people born in America, to face off against our future Americans, and see how well they would do. Because guess what? Most people can't.
COLLINS: Rob Worsoff, keep us updated on what you hear from the Department of Homeland Security. Thank you for your time tonight.
Up next, tonight. My next source is a veteran FAA air traffic controller. He is speaking out, which is something that you don't often see. It comes after he says he averted a midair collision near Newark Airport. Why he's on trauma leave now.
[21:40:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Back now on the ground in Abu Dhabi, where the sun is coming up, while back in the United States, the FAA is proposing a plan to reduce all landings at Newark International Airport, to just 28 planes per hour. Now, that's a notable scale-down from around 40 flights per hour right now, and it comes after weeks of chaos at the airport and outages at the air traffic control facility.
On three separate occasions, over the last month, radar screens went dark, comms with planes were lost at that Newark control center that is tasked with guiding planes into the busiest airspace in the nation.
One veteran air traffic controller, and supervisor, who works at that facility, Jonathan Stewart, is now speaking out after joining several of his colleagues on trauma leave, following those system blackouts. I spoke to him, earlier.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: Jonathan, it's great to have you here, because I know you don't -- we don't often hear from someone who is in your position. So, I do appreciate you taking the time to speak out.
Can you just walk us through the incident that led you to this point, where you needed to take trauma leave from your job?
JONATHAN STEWART, AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLER: Sure, Kaitlan. Thank you -- thank you for having me.
You're right. I don't want to be here. But it's been a very, very long day, trying to avoid the media in general, and I'm just beat, man. I feel like it's the story of my life. I'm just tired.
But anyway, yes, so I came into work. We were short-staffed per usual. I worked multiple positions to give controllers breaks, and I worked the operations oversight position. At the time of my incident, I'd been working for probably about two and a half hours, when I first started working Departure, combined.
[21:45:00]
And departing aircraft, it's a critical phase of flight, as they're lifting off. The tower, says them -- tells them to contact, Departure. They contact me. I was working four airports at the time, Newark, Teterboro, Caldwell, and Morristown, respectively.
As somebody else stated, I believe Andrew stated, that I had a notebook in front of me, and I wrote down call signs, and the instructions that I gave them, so I would have an idea in my head of what I was looking at with my eyes. So because of that, it required a little more concentration. I haven't done that in 20 years. Like I said, just non-radar straight-up. So utilizing non-radar rules when you can't -- we can see the aircraft on the radar, it's kind of a little bit of a mindbender, if you will.
That being said, I was reasonably assured if I used that method, if we lost radar and radios or both, it wouldn't matter. I could -- I could be reasonably assured that these guys won't hit. And nothing else you can be reasonably assured, no other way, period, that I've found. None.
And if the agency or NATCA or anybody could find a better way, I challenge you to present it, and come on TV yourself, and give us all the heads-up of what we should be doing, because the way you're running business now is not safe.
COLLINS: Yes, and when you said you didn't want to be responsible for killing 400 people.
STEWART: Well, I don't want to be -- I don't want to miss something because I'm three and -- three hours and change into my working position, positions for that matter. I'm fatigued, I'm hungry, everything else. Like, it's just nobody takes human factors into consideration here. We're not robots.
And the idea that they can take a supervisor and treat him like, like less than human because he doesn't have a union? That's pretty messed up. And the end result is the same. That was my point. The end result is the same. And pushing people beyond their limits is not good business. Period.
COLLINS: I wonder what you made of that CBS video. I don't know if you've seen this. It's from inside your facility during the May 9th outage. And it just shows the screens blink.
STEWART: Seems about right.
COLLINS: And I think to see that as a passenger, you're like, Whoa.
STEWART: Well, if you think that's bad, you should see what it looks like when you lose radios, and you can see all the airplanes flying away. You have no idea if they're going to hit. But you can see them. You just can't talk to them.
COLLINS: I just wonder, given what you've been through, and what you're seeing that how the FAA is handling this, if you could talk to the Transportation Secretary, Sean Duffy, what would you say to him tonight?
STEWART: I would tell him that he needs to speak to his guys. I gave them the information and the tools they need to do this successfully. They don't have to bring in outside influence, if they don't want to. But the controllers need to be taught how to work this hybrid radar- non-radar system. Because if they don't, they're going to lose radar and have no recourse.
That's -- I have zero desire to be involved in that. I had told the powers that be, I'm staying out, until there's a better management team that actually knows what leadership means, and the methods that we're using to separate airplanes, work for equipment that's unreliable, and that's all there is to it.
I refuse to work, like I said, and be responsible for something bad happening. Because I'm having to work a different method of traffic, and I have to work as if my radar is reliable because I don't have time to use non-radar. So, it has to be slowed down significantly. That's the unfortunate truth, and nobody wants to hear that, because that means money. Well, you know what's really expensive? The alternative.
COLLINS: Jonathan, I'm grateful that you came on and shared what it is like, because I do think it's important for people to know what you and your coworkers are going through.
Jonathan Stewart, thank you for your time tonight.
STEWART: Thank you very much.
And lastly, I'd like to say good night to my daughter. I told you I'd be there, but I got predisposed, trying to keep away from everybody else. So, sweet dreams, kiddo.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: Coming up here for us. There is a manhunt underway, right now, in the United States, for eight inmates, including several accused and convicted of murder, who escaped from a New Orleans jail by breaching the wall behind a toilet. It is now being investigated as a potential inside job.
[21:50:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Breaking news out of New Orleans tonight, where police are still on the hunt for eight of the 10 inmates who we saw escape from jail early, this morning, including several who are murder suspects.
Police say, this is how they got out, by first breaching a wall behind a toilet. You can see this picture, the words, Too Easy, and LOL, are written on the wall above that hole. In the last hour, police said they did catch a second of the inmates, who had gone out, after initially getting one of them.
Authorities have released a video of their escape, showing how they left through a sliding door that was used to bring in supplies. Then they scaled a wall and ran across the interstate. Prison officials did not discover they were gone until hours later, when they were doing a routine check.
My source tonight is Steve Moore, who is a retired FBI supervisory agent.
And Steve, I imagine this is probably that jail's worst nightmare. But I just wonder what you make of the fact that they were able to get out, and no one noticed for hours?
[21:55:00]
STEVE MOORE, RETIRED FBI SUPERVISORY SPECIAL AGENT, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I think someone noticed. I think someone didn't sound the alarm. This has all the indications of, as they've already admitted, an inside job. Because you don't get eight or 10 people, all at once, to say, Hey, let's see if this works.
They've already tested it. They've already gone through all the -- all the what ifs, and they've probably tried several times just to do a dry run-through on this. So this had every indication of something that was long-planned and well-coordinated with the people that they would need to help them get out. COLLINS: So what happens if this is an inside job? Because we heard officials saying earlier that they do believe that they had help from the inside, from the jails team. I mean, what does that look like in part of that -- as part of that investigation, while they're still conducting a manhunt, but also trying to figure out who is helping them?
MOORE: Yes, Kaitlan, what's going to -- what -- what it's going to look like? Number one is, you're going to have two concurrent investigations. You're going to have a fugitive investigation for the remaining suspects. But at the same time, you're going to have a very compartmentalized investigation on how this happened.
And so, what you're going to have to do is go through and find all the safeguards that were in place, to make sure this didn't happen. Number one, who wasn't watching the camera? Number two, who told the prisoners, or allowed the prisoners to know how you could jimmy a door on a cell that was obviously broken? So, I mean, it's all going to -- it's all going to be that kind of investigation.
COLLINS: Yes. A lot of questions there.
Steve Moore, we'll continue to check in with you, as we watch this. Thank you for that.
Back here on the ground, in Abu Dhabi, it's been a very busy week covering President Trump's first foreign trip. Here's a look at behind-the-scenes.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're starting our day at midnight. Welcome to Riyadh.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stand by.
COLLINS: We are in Saudi Arabia right now. We're in Riyadh. Trump's second stop on this trip is Doha, so he will be going and meeting with the very officials, who are gifting the Pentagon that plane in just a few days from now.
ON SCREEN TEXT: Tuesday, May 13 Riyadh, Saudi Arabia.
COLLINS: This room is essentially crawling with businesspeople who are here, from all different sectors, entertainment, AI.
We're waiting to hear what President Trump has to say. What he wants is a trillion dollars in investments in the United States from Saudi Arabia.
TRUMP: We are rocking. The United States is the hottest country -- with the exception of your country, I have to say, right?
(CHEERING)
TRUMP: I won't -- I'm not going to take that on. (APPLAUSE)
ON SCREEN TEXT: Wednesday, May 14 Doha, Qatar.
COLLINS: As you can see, we just touched down here in Doha, where he's going to greet the Emir of Qatar.
I actually spoke to the President on Air Force One.
TRUMP: Nothing's going to happen until Putin and I get together, OK? And obviously he wasn't going to go. He was going to go, but he thought I was going to go. He wasn't going if I wasn't there. And I don't believe anything is going to happen, whether you like it or not, until he and I get together. But we're going to have to get it solved, because too many people are dying.
JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: And Kaitlan, Trump met with another world leader, Syria's interim president, who, until recently, had a $10 million U.S. bounty on his head.
COLLINS: Yes, used to fight for al Qaeda as well, Jake, when you look at his background. And the President referenced that, when we were speaking with him.
How did you find the Syrian president?
TRUMP: Great. Great, I think, very good. Young, attractive guy. Tough guy, you know? Strong past. Very strong past. Fighter.
COLLINS: One thing he made clear to us is that he does want to see Syria normalize relations with Israel, as he's been trying to build on the Abraham Accords. But he essentially made clear to us that that is further down the road, and that essentially this is going to be the starting point with these two leaders.
ON SCREEN TEXT: Thursday, May 15 Abu Dhabi, UAE.
COLLINS: We've just witnessed a pretty dramatic shift in tone, when it comes to the isolationist aspect of his America First agenda. He embraced the Emir of Qatar, after first blasting him during his first term in office. Repeated today that he wanted to create a freedom zone by the U.S. in Gaza.
TRUMP: I'm just thinking, we have a President of the United States doing the selling.
(LAUGHTER)
COLLINS: I'm standing here in the Grand Mosque. This is actually where President Trump just visited while he was here, in the United Arab Emirates, on his trip. Actually the first mosque that we know of, that Trump has visited since he became president. He came in, he took off his shoes, as was customary, and he praised how grand and beautiful the mosque is, looking around at all the white marble that you see here. TRUMP: It is so beautiful. Very proud of my friends. This is an incredible culture. That, I can say.
[22:00:00]
COLLINS: And obviously, this is part of the entire trip that has really appealed to the President when it comes to just how opulent it has been.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: A historic trip, indeed.
Thank you so much for joining us, while we were here, every night this week, in the Middle East.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" is up next.
