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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Trump Ambushes South African President In Oval Office Meeting; House GOP Releases Changes To Trump Bill To Win Over Holdouts; New Book: Biden's Team Kept Residence Staff From Seeing Him. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired May 21, 2025 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: --a programming note, before we hand things over to "THE SOURCE."
George Clooney, starring in Broadway's "Good Night, and Good Luck," presented live on CNN, in a first-of-its-kind broadcast. It's going to air Saturday, June 7th, at 07:00 p.m. on CNN, streaming on CNN.com.
The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now. See you tomorrow.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Straight from THE SOURCE tonight.
Inside the ambush, in the Oval Office, President Trump lowering the lights for a remarkable confrontation that left his fellow world leader stunned. Among my sources tonight is someone who was in that room.
And a cliffhanger is playing out, right now, on Capitol Hill. House Republicans say that they're pushing ahead with a vote on the President's big, beautiful bill. But do they have enough Republican votes? Two GOP lawmakers with two different views are going to be my sources tonight.
And we also have new reporting, this evening, about the lengths that those closest to President Biden went to, to shield the country from what was really going on. The authors of the new book that is roiling Washington are here.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
The President of South Africa may not have realized a lecture was in store for him, when he got out of his motorcade, and stepped into the West Wing today. But before he even made it into the Oval Office, President Trump had already had aides wheel in two large TV screens into the room, in anticipation of the arrival that you're seeing right here.
The South African leader may have had some idea of what was coming, and potentially tried to ward it off by bringing with him some of President Trump's favorite athletes. But no amount of flattery or pro golfers was enough to stave off what was coming next.
Instead, the President of the United States came prepared with printouts, and a video presentation, to push claims that, experts argue, don't line up with the facts.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: You're taking people's land away--
CYRIL RAMAPHOSA, PRESIDENT OF SOUTH AFRICA: We -- we have not.
TRUMP: --from them.
RAMAPHOSA: We have--
TRUMP: And those people, in many cases, are being executed. They're being executed, and they happen to be white, and most of them happen to be farmers. And that's a tough situation. I don't know how you explain that. How do you explain that?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: You can see there, he initially seemed shocked by the whole ordeal.
But then the President of South Africa got in, and repeatedly tried to tell the President that this is what's really happening inside his country.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RAMAPHOSA: There is criminality in our country. People who do get killed, unfortunately through criminal activity, are not only white people. Majority of them are black people. And we have now we've utilized--
TRUMP: The farmers are not black. The farmers are not black.
RAMAPHOSA: We had -- no--
TRUMP: I don't say that's good or bad. But the farmers are not black.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: There's certainly a lot of violent crime in South Africa, but nothing that we've seen that meets the definition of white genocide. Even the President himself, when he was asked inside that Oval Office meeting, if he would call it genocide, didn't go there.
His Cabinet members were also inside the room for the tense showdown. It was reminiscent, almost, of President Zelenskyy's meeting, except for the lights were lowered, at one point, this time around. And one of those Cabinet secretaries said they were essentially bracing for it to be uncomfortable.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOWARD LUTNICK, COMMERCE SECRETARY: Oh, boy, was it uncomfortable. And, you know, I walk in, and he's got that video screen up, and I know what video is going to play, and I'm like, Whoa, this is going to be one of those.
And, you know, and they really -- and then we went privately, and we had serious discussion. And it's just, he's amazing, that he would do it straight up right to it. No nonsense. Let's bring it. The guy's here. Let's try to fix it, right? Is this -- is this guy our friend, or is he an enemy?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now, the subject of white farmers being persecuted in South Africa is not something new that you're hearing from President Trump. It's actually something he raised in his first term in office.
But it has now become part of the official American foreign policy, given we've seen this change, lately, where white South Africans are now allowed to enter the United States, as refugees, on an expedited basis. 59 actually did so last week. At the same time, the administration has suspended the vast majority of other refugee resettlement, including for people who are fleeing war or famine.
Another person who was in the Oval Office today that you can see here, the world's wealthiest man, born and raised in South Africa, and who has also amplified some of those same claims, as the President.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I have many friends from South Africa. But, many of those friends are not -- they can't go back. I have -- Elon is from South Africa. I don't want to get Elon involved. That's all I have to do, get him into another thing.
(LAUGHTER)
TRUMP: But Elon happens to be from South Africa. This is what Elon wanted.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:05:00]
COLLINS: After that dramatic moment that we all saw play out in front of the cameras, for over an hour, I should note, inside the Oval Office today, the two leaders then met in private. The South African President later described those talks as in-depth exchanges on golf, trade, and investment.
My first source tonight is CNN's International Correspondent, Larry Madowo, who has spent years on the ground, in South Africa, covering the reality of what's happening here.
And Larry, it's great to have you -- have you here tonight. Just across the board, how are people responding, in South Africa, to what they saw happening at the White House today?
LARRY MADOWO, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Like the rest of the world, many people in South Africa were shocked by this multimedia ambush that even a skilled negotiator like Cyril Ramaphosa could not have anticipated. This is the man that helped negotiate the end of apartheid. He told me, last week, he learned under the feet of Nelson Mandela. And yet, he was not ready for this video screen, four-and-a- half minute video montage.
Many South Africans are also praising how calm and collected he was throughout that. He pushed back gently. He didn't raise his voice. He didn't look angry. Even though what was being said was quite inflammatory. Almost everything that President Trump said about the alleged persecution of white farmers in South Africa was untrue. But President Ramaphosa tried to maintain and stay on message throughout that.
So, one group that's celebrating what happened there is an organization that's been criticized by some as a white supremacist group. AfriForum, the white African lobby group, told CNN, this evening, they're very happy with how this went, because for them, it illustrates that the issues in South Africa cannot be swept under the table by Ramaphosa, and by his African National Congress party. So they are happy, because this went better than they could have expected, that President of the United States repeating their talking points, often word for word.
That video of the white crosses by the side of the road, that's part of their political stance. And they use it not to represent 1,000 graves, but to call attention to what they see as farm murders, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: And that's part of the video we're showing it now that was shown inside the Oval today.
CNN has been covering this story, and looking into what is happening in South Africa. What is the reality, Larry, of what's happening on the ground?
MADOWO: We have looked into this claim of white genocide, and we have found none. Our competitors have done the same. Lots of other independent bodies.
Violent crime is a real issue in South Africa. Between April and December 2024, there are almost 20,000 murders in South Africa. But what percentage of those were actual farm murders? 0.2 percent. So, across the board, there were only 36 farm murders in South Africa. Everyone is a tragedy. But out of those 36, only seven were farmers.
Farmers tend to be white, in South Africa. Black people tend to be workers in these farms. So, it's a tiny percentage, 0.2 percent of the overall figure. But that's not something that the South Africans could put across the White House today.
COLLINS: Yes. Larry Madowo, thank you for bringing us those facts. Great to have you here tonight.
My White House insiders are also joining me tonight at the table.
Ziyanda Ngcobo, a Senior Politics Reporter for Newzroom Afrika.
And we've got Shelby Talcott, Zolan Kanno-Youngs, and Michael Scherer here as well.
I want to start with you, though, given being inside that room, watching this all play out. Actually, things had been going smoothly.
ZIYANDA NGCOBO, SENIOR POLITICS REPORTER, NEWZROOM AFRIKA: Yes.
COLLINS: You may not realize that, if you're watching the highlights that we're showing.
NGCOBO: Yes.
COLLINS: They were talking about golf, and they were -- there's a lot of laughter, and it was when a reporter asked about genocide that things really took a turn.
NGCOBO: It was actually me who asked that.
COLLINS: You asked that question.
NGCOBO: Yes. Because I asked, what would it take President Trump to convince you that there is no white genocide in South Africa. And then, you would have seen that President Cyril Ramaphosa opted to say, I'll answer that.
And as he was responding, that's when Donald Trump asked to have the lights turned down low, and played that video of a South African party leader who is a minority. It's the fourth biggest party in the country.
And even those crosses, I think you would have heard President Ramaphosa asking whether or not President Trump has been told about where exactly this is. Because for those of us in the room, we also couldn't quite pinpoint where exactly in South Africa those crosses might be located.
So, insofar as that is concerned, it was very interesting to watch how President Trump actually repeated those false claims, and didn't quite answer the question as to what would it take.
COLLINS: When he was preparing for his trip here, I noticed the President said he wanted to disabuse Trump of some of his misguided views.
NGCOBO: Yes.
COLLINS: Did he have any idea of what was awaiting him in the Oval Office today?
NGCOBO: Absolutely. And the South African government was clear in its communication that they're preparing for all eventualities.
Just last week, you welcomed those 50-odd white Afrikaners into the U.S., it's clear that they've been doubling down. Secretary of State, Marco Rubio, on another channel, was also doubling down on those falsehoods. So, the South African government was fully aware of what could have come, even perhaps having those white Afrikaners rolled out in the Oval Office. So he -- we were prepared for an ambush of sorts.
[21:10:00]
And that's why back home, there was lots of talk about the importance of Cyril Ramaphosa, the man, and how he would show up, in that moment, given his experience as a negotiator, negotiating from an apartheid regime into a democratic dispensation.
And that became critical in how he responded and allowed Trump to speak, but trying to push back, but not in a manner that baited him into some kind of a fight that would ultimately play into the political theater that has become the Oval Office.
COLLINS: Yes, it was just remarkable to watch.
Zolan, what were your takeaways?
ZOLAN KANNO-YOUNGS, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, THE NEW YORK TIMES: Well, I mean, it really amounted to this collision between a president that has allowed fringe theories, and conversations with golfers, and conversations on the golf course, and conspiracy theories, and the collision of that President with the President that was trying to describe the reality of his own country.
This was, in many ways, the culmination of a years-long effort. As you noted, the President did amplify these false claims of mass killings and land seizures in the first term. But he had also bureaucrats around him that limited it, for the most part, to social media posts.
Now you have a president who is surrounded around loyalists. And you're seeing these thoughts, these fringe ideas that the President clearly believes here, that are now making its way into policy, and shaping the foreign policy approach to South Africa.
This is an administration that's cut foreign aid to South Africa, suspended refugee admissions for everybody, across the globe. Afghans, who helped U.S. soldiers. The Congolese. And only is allowing in now Afrikaners into this country. So you're now seeing this view, really, take hold, not just in the Oval Office, but in policy.
COLLINS: And Shelby, if you wanted any indication that the White House thought this meeting went well. Immediately after, they were amplifying these moments on social media.
SHELBY TALCOTT, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, SEMAFOR: Yes, and I think it was, it's really, it can't be understated how this was planned by the administration, right? They had this video pre-made. They had the TVs.
COLLINS: Those TVs aren't normally in the Oval Office.
TALCOTT: They're not normally in the Oval Office. They had them rolled in. They had printouts of articles that they gave to the South African President. So this is exactly how the administration prepped for this meeting. And so, I think that can't be understated. This is how they wanted this Oval Office meeting publicly to go.
COLLINS: What about the Elon Musk of it all? I mean, you just have a great new story out on him today. And also stepping back, but also still very much having a spot in the Oval Office when he wants one.
MICHAEL SCHERER, STAFF WRITER, THE ATLANTIC: Having a spot in the Oval Office, but not wanting to say anything. And the President actually made reference to the fact, I don't want to get him in any more trouble than he already is in--
NGCOBO: Yes.
SCHERER: --We're not going to bring him into this.
So, he's still very close to the President. But, I think, as we reported today, he's on his way out of Washington. He's not totally out of town, but he's cutting back his work.
I think the big takeaway we should just mention is, the end of this exchange ends with a billionaire from South Africa and golfers speaking to the President, and the President listening, and the President actually taking in information that contradicts his beliefs, which are wrong.
I mean, he has a whole U.S. government, who could have disabused him of some of these things, beforehand, or if his advisers had given him that information. But he was listening to the golfers. He was listening to the billionaire.
And I think it was sort of a master-class. I mean, after the Zelenskyy blowup in the Oval Office. I mean, if Zelenskyy had a golfer or two in there, who could have spoken his language.
COLLINS: That statement that you just said--
KANNO-YOUNGS: Right.
COLLINS: --is remarkable in and of itself.
NGCOBO: Yes.
KANNO-YOUNGS: It is striking, also, the difference in the way the President responded to those--
SCHERER: Yes.
KANNO-YOUNGS: --white South African golfers and a billionaire standing behind a delegation, and a black president that did also negotiate out of apartheid there. The demeanor the President was showing, in that he displayed, when it came to those athletes behind compared to the government officials--
TALCOTT: And I think it shows how--
KANNO-YOUNGS: --are different and striking.
TALCOTT: --how world leaders have watched some of these -- all of these oval office meetings, particularly the Zelenskyy one--
NGCOBO: Right.
TALCOTT: --and sort of adapted their way of going in to talk to the President.
NGCOBO: And it's also important that from an optics perspective, given South Africa's racial history and inequality, to have an Agriculture minister in the form of John Steenhuisen, who is the leader of the second biggest party in South Africa, which is now part of the Government of National Unity, and Agriculture minister, which is the ministry taking care of farmers, but in particular those white Afrikaner farmers.
President Cyril Ramaphosa throwing it over to him to say, Well, we've got a minister here. He can explain what's happening. Let him tell you that there is no white genocide in South Africa. Is there criminality? Absolutely. But it doesn't just affect White Afrikaner farmers. It affects everybody in South Africa. You've got an issue of rural safety, that's something that needs to be dealt with.
So from an optics perspective, it did assist in a way, and that's something that has been credited to President Cyril Ramaphosa, from a strategic aspect.
COLLINS: Yes. Ziyanda, it's so great to have you join us, and the rest of the White House insiders.
NGCOBO: Thank you.
[21:15:00]
COLLINS: Thank you for coming in, and for asking a great question today inside the Oval Office.
NGCOBO: Thank you.
COLLINS: Up next here. We're going to check in on what is going on, in Capitol Hill. Some people say there will be a vote, some people say, likely not, on Trump's mega bill. Hardline Republicans are threatening to torpedo it, unless there's a compromise.
We're going to speak with one person who's voting no, right now, and another who is voting yes. Right ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Right now, the latest version of President Trump's big, beautiful bill is out. We're coming through it. It truly came out moments ago. It includes a package of changes, big changes, in some cases, to President Trump's agenda, that reflect days of negotiations that have been happening, here in Washington, to win over key Republican holdouts.
[21:20:00]
Tonight, we are watching this crucial gamble play out, as Mike Johnson, Speaker Mike Johnson, is promising a vote on this tonight.
There was even a White House intervention, this afternoon, where the President fought to convince a group of Republican hardliners, to vote yes, to commit to it. You can see them in between this tree, coming into the White House.
It's still not clear that he has the votes. But Speaker Johnson has told my colleague, Manu Raju, the plan is a go.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): The plan is to move forward, as we expected. That was a very productive meeting at the White House.
I think we're in a very good place. I think that all of our colleagues here will really like this final product, and I think we're going to move forward. You will all be surprised, there's not much changing here, because the underlying product, we thought, was so well-done.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now, a reminder, Speaker Johnson can only afford to lose three Republican votes. Congressman Thomas Massie is already a pretty unpersuadable no, as some might put it, as key holdouts in the Freedom Caucus aren't at a yes, either.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ANDY HARRIS (R-MD): I don't think it can be done today. I mean, the runway is short today.
REP. CHIP ROY (R-TX): We're going to work with the President today. We're going to work with our colleagues to deliver. But there's a long way to go.
REP. SCOTT PERRY (R-PA): There's some kind of belief in Washington, D.C., that once today comes and goes, that this cannot be fixed. This is a completely arbitrary deadline, set by people here, to force people into a corner to make bad decisions.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My source tonight is the last voice you heard there. Republican congressman, Scott Perry, met with President Trump today. And he joins me now.
And it's great to have you here, sir.
I know these changes are just coming out moments ago. Are you happy with what you see in these changes?
PERRY: Well, Kaitlan, thanks for having me on.
And of course, I never said I was a no, but I said I had concerns. And now that we have the text, now we're going to go through it, and we are going through it.
And of course, people often say things in Washington, D.C., but it's what's written on the paper, what you're actually going to vote on, that's really important. And I'm a guy who likes to read the bills. I'm not one of those people that says, I'm going to vote for it to find out what's in it.
So, we have to make sure that they have stuck to their word on certain provisions that we have asked for, that are critical for all of us, for passage of this, or for affirmative votes.
COLLINS: But you're not a yes yet?
PERRY: Like I said, I have concerns. I want to see what they did with the things that they talked about, but how they came out in the language. I said, The devil is in the details, and the details are very, very important. Like you said, we just got the bill, within the last 30 minutes. So, we have to comb through it now.
COLLINS: Part of that includes speeding up work requirements for Medicaid. Instead of 2029, it's now going to be to the end of 2026, from what I'm looking at here, and tightens the definition of a, quote, Qualified alien who is eligible for the program. Is that something that you wanted to see in these changes?
PERRY: Well, we do want to see some tightening up of Medicaid. Unfortunately, the vulnerable population in Pennsylvania, and across the country, is waiting in line, while people that really don't qualify for Medicaid, as we know it, are actually taking up the subsidies. They get seven times the amount of a subsidy from the federal government than people that traditionally qualified. That's unfair. And so, we're trying to work those details out, and that's part of that.
COLLINS: What happened inside the White House meeting today? How would you describe how that went?
PERRY: Well, look, I'm careful to characterize our conversations with the President, because we want to be able to have those conversations in confidence. But I would say it was productive. We got a lot of discussions about the concerns that we have, and about how to get -- how to get a good product, and what he can do to help to get that good product. Of course, there are some great things in the bill.
But this is a day, where we looked at a bond sale, where the basis went up a 100 points. And that's a concern, for many of us, as we don't want to see these continued debts and deficits, and we need to make sure that we're spending -- we're turning the trajectory of spending in Washington, D.C., on the right course of correction. And that's part of this discussion as well. COLLINS: Did the President offer to sign executive orders on cuts, or Medicaid, or anything like that, to get you to vote yes on this?
PERRY: Well, like I said, I don't want to particularly characterize the competence of the conversation.
But what I can tell you is the President did agree to work, as the executive branch, with the legislative branch, to address our concerns across the board, from the things like the Inflation Reduction Act, which is so-called, which is essentially handouts to wind and solar billionaires, and things like that, and to also bend the cost and the spending curve down.
So, we have -- we're working on a collaborative effort where we can. And I think I would characterize the tenor of the conversation that way.
COLLINS: But you won't say if he promised to sign executive orders?
PERRY: No, I won't talk about anything the President or anybody else promised.
COLLINS: OK. Some people may hear that and say it sounds like a yes, but I'll let your comments stand.
[21:25:00]
Speaker Johnson wants this done by this weekend, by Memorial Day. I know you've argued, that's not a real deadline in your view. Do you expect to vote on this tonight still?
PERRY: I don't know if it's going to come tonight. I said, like I said, we just got the language, and people like me will be -- will be upset with our leadership if we don't get a chance to really go through it and read the whole thing. And so, I think that's important for all members.
I've often said, and I will say again, I'll say it right here, and I would say to the Speaker as well, It's more important to get it correct, than to get it fast. We need to get it right, as opposed to fast. So if we have to wait a few hours, or a few days, to get it right, that's really important, because this is going to be enduring. We have to get it through the Senate, and we want to make sure we get the best product that we can.
COLLINS: OK. Well Manu Raju will probably be following you around with a camera until you say you're a yes or a no.
Congressman Scott Perry, thank you for joining us on the breaking news tonight.
PERRY: Well, thank you. God bless you.
COLLINS: And my next source tonight is Republican congressman, Dan Crenshaw, of Texas, who joins me now, and is also reading through these changes as they just came out, truly, as you were sitting down on set.
What do you make of what you're seeing so far in there? You on board with this?
REP. DAN CRENSHAW (R-TX): Yes, I mean, I think so. I was on board with it before this. I'm probably more on board with it now. Look, some of these were important, and some of these things I was in favor of already.
I'm on the Energy and Commerce Committee, so we've been debating the Medicaid issue for months. I appreciate others' opinions on that. They deserve to have those opinions. They're members of Congress. And we made some changes. Now, like, I actually think we should go further on Medicaid reforms, and I think those colleagues who advocated for these changes also agree with that.
So, here's what happened, just from me reading it, in front of you, right now. I can barely read it, because I'm a little bit blinder than you are.
So, one of the big things that they wanted was -- so the work requirements didn't kick in until 2029, OK? We changed that to 2026. The reason we had originally at 2029 was because that's what HHS said the time they needed to make it happen. We're now telling them, You know what? Make it happen faster. And I don't think that's unreasonable.
COLLINS: But can I ask you on Medicaid. Because part of what your more moderate colleagues are worried about is changing, for example, what the federal government matches that states do on Medicaid. They're worried about that.
Do you have concerns, even though you wanted to go further, that maybe going further could hurt your more moderate colleagues?
CRENSHAW: That's exactly the issue, right? I want to go further. I think we should normalize expansion state -- the FMAP for expansion states.
So, just so everyone knows, if you've expanded your Medicaid population under Obamacare, you get a 90 percent match from the federal government. That's well above what your actual match should be. That match is generally based on the per capita income per state, so it's different for every state. But it's usually between, I don't know, 70 and 50 percent. It's not 90.
So, it's very unfair to states who said, Hey, you know what? No, we're going to be fiscally -- like Texas, we're going to be fiscally responsible. We're not going to expand to that Medicaid population, which, by the way, is wealthier people, not wealthy, but wealthier people than the people that Medicaid was meant for, which is the poor and children and the sick.
And so, there is a very good argument that you need to normalize what's called that FMAP, which is that federal match. That's not happening at all. I mean, look, I've been in favor of per capita caps, which is just simply freezing that Medicaid populate -- that expansion population.
COLLINS: So do you--
CRENSHAW: We're not even doing that. We're taking the lightest touch possible on Medicaid, let's be honest.
COLLINS: But you were already -- well, I'm sure, there's a question of whether or not it'll be framed like that. Obviously, Democrats likely will--
(CROSSTALK)
CRENSHAW: Oh, they're framing it very different, but they're also not telling the truth, so.
COLLINS: But the big question and big concern, well, people will lose coverage--
CRENSHAW: I'll tell you about those people.
COLLINS: --because the subsidies are expiring as well.
But on the concerns that people like Andy Harris have, and Chip Roy, is about it adding to the deficit, and blowing up on you, right before the midterms, potentially, something like that. Do you share those concerns? Because you were already a yes on this. It is going to add to the deficit by multiple estimates.
CRENSHAW: Yes, like our -- but our deficit is a product of massive entitlement spending. And this is actually the 70 percent of our spending. You start adding DOD and VA benefits, now you're talking about almost 90 percent of our spending.
This is the first time we've even taken a -- taken an attempt to bend that cost curve. And we're only focusing on Medicaid. We didn't touch Medicare. We didn't touch Social Security.
This is the first time we're even doing that. So, all our fiscal hawks are like, Look, you're not wrong, OK? I agree with you. But I also want to propose a thought experiment to you. I'm going to make you king for a day. Do you want to raise taxes or not?
Democrats are pretty clear on this. They want your taxes to go up in December. Their position is very clear.
COLLINS: Because they don't want to extend the Trump tax cuts.
CRENSHAW: Right, they don't want to extend the tax cuts. But that means -- that means--
COLLINS: But do you -- do you have concerns?
CRENSHAW: Just to be clear, that means your taxes, and everybody's taxes watching, go up in December. You could prevent that.
COLLINS: But you do have concerns about it hurting the deficit?
CRENSHAW: I think--
COLLINS: I mean, could this bite Republicans, essentially, later down the road?
CRENSHAW: I don't think so. I think we're bending cost curves of massive, massive programs that we've never done before. We're putting in very pro-growth policies.
And look, the CBO has been wrong. Like, for instance, they were -- they were off by about a trillion dollars in revenue when the first tax cuts came around. Like, they're just -- because it is--
COLLINS: Yes, but it was multiple estimates, as you know, but.
CRENSHAW: It's because they don't do dynamic scoring.
COLLINS: Yes.
[21:30:00]
CRENSHAW: It's not their fault. Like, by law, they do a scoring, a very specific way. And it's philosophical too. Is it -- are we really -- are we really going into debt because we're letting you keep more of your money? We're keeping taxes the same. There's no tax cuts in here. We're keeping tax cuts the same. We're making sure your taxes don't increase. The Democrats want your taxes to increase. And on top of that--
COLLINS: Yes.
CRENSHAW: --well, I think, we're bending cost curves of programs that are totally unsustainable.
COLLINS: All right.
CRENSHAW: I think we should go a lot further on that, to be honest. But I'm happy with getting 218 votes, and moving this forward.
COLLINS: We'll see if you get there, Congressman Dan Crenshaw.
CRENSHAW: Might be tonight.
COLLINS: Still waiting on a few yeses. Thanks so much for your time tonight.
Up next. My colleagues are taking Washington by storm. There's a new book uncovering the Biden 2024 reelection campaign, what was happening inside the White House. Jake Tapper and Alex Thompson are here next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:35:00]
COLLINS: In a new report today, two top Washington allies of former President, Joe Biden, say that they have not been in touch with the former President in the days since his announcement that he has an aggressive form of prostate cancer.
Congressman Jim Clyburn and Senator Chris Coons both tell "Politico" that they have not spoken to Biden, as the outlet reports that most Democrats are trying, yet again, to pivot from Biden's health, to stay on message, as Republicans advance President Trump's agenda.
But staying on message may prove to be a challenge, when a stunning new book, and new reporting, from "Original Sin," by CNN's Jake Tapper, And Axios' Alex Thompson, reveals the scope of the White House cover up of Biden's mental and physical decline.
The authors write in the book, quote, "Some Biden aides were in denial, but others knew that the president might not last through another four years and made peace with it. Beating Trump mattered more. "He just had to win, and then he could disappear for four years -- he'd only have to show proof of life every once in a while," said one longtime Biden aide. His aides could pick up the slack."
My sources tonight are the authors of "Original Sin," Alex Thompson and Jake Tapper. And it's great to--
JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR, CO-AUTHOR, "ORIGINAL SIN": Let me say what an unbelievable -- Alex got that quote for the book.
COLLINS: Yes.
TAPPER: About the, Who cares about who the president is. His aides will pick up the slack. What an unbelievable thing to say.
ALEX THOMPSON, CNN CONTRIBUTOR, NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, AXIOS, CO-AUTHOR, "ORIGINAL SIN": I couldn't believe it, and they said it so casually.
COLLINS: And it's exactly what all the critics have been saying, is that other people were running the White House, and that wasn't President Biden himself. I mean, I don't think he would be comfortable with that kind of a characterization.
TAPPER: I don't know what he'd be comfortable with, honestly.
THOMPSON: I mean, but it shows that at that point, by 2024, that's sort of what the staff was feeling. They felt empowered, and they felt that beating Trump justified anything--
TAPPER: Yes.
THOMPSON: --including sometimes on things that could be considered undemocratic.
COLLINS: When you hear that Chris Coons and Jim Clyburn have not heard from President Biden, since his diagnosis came out. It just reminded me of your reporting, which is that he was so insulated by aides, and that a lot of people weren't getting the chance to speak directly with him in his final time in office. TAPPER: Some of that started in the first years of the presidency because of COVID, obviously, for health reasons.
But we found that there was a concerted effort starting in basically like mid-to-late 2023, when we think that serious deterioration of his cognitive functions began, that there was a serious effort to just keep him away from Cabinet officials, top Democrats in Congress, even White House staffers.
This came from those people, I'm talking about. We have a Cabinet secretary in the book, talking about how there was an effort, after the last Cabinet meeting in October 2023, for almost a year, that there was an effort to keep him away. And then that Cabinet secretary saw President Biden one more time in-person before the debate, and said he was completely out of it, completely disoriented in this one private meeting.
COLLINS: I mean, it even extended, when you're reading on this, not just to other people inside the West Wing, or political staffers, to the resident staff, the people who were there to just serve the first family, and aren't huge leakers, or people who are talking to the media. These are people who cook their meals, and push the elevator button for him, and all of that stuff that every President has.
THOMPSON: Yes, I talked to residence officials, and one actually said that they felt they were being kept at arm's length, not just because of privacy reasons, but because they felt that they were trying to insulate him to -- from the signs of his decline. One residence official actually told me, they said, Sometimes he would just look at you, like he had never met you before. And this is someone that saw him most days.
And, in terms of the insulation, they said, There's usually someone that rides the elevator with the President. They're like, You don't -- you don't need to be needed. 3 o'clock comes around, you can go home early. These were some signs that wasn't just staff, to your point, wasn't just staff, and other Democrats, and other lawmakers, that were being kept at bay. It was actually even the resident staff as well.
COLLINS: How much of this had to do with the reelection campaign coming up, and their view of Vice President Harris. Because you both write in here about how they viewed her as a work in progress, that Biden calls for that--
TAPPER: President Biden said that--
COLLINS: And you write that it became essentially additional rationalization for why he should run again, because, as you put it, or as you were told, there was no plan B.
TAPPER: It's an excuse. We call it the Kamala excuse in the book. It's an excuse that his aides used to justify his running, even at an advanced age, when there was evidence that publicly, everybody saw him slowing down, having gaffes, aging, and then privately, it was even worse.
And the argument was, Well, if he doesn't run, who's going to run? Kamala Harris is the Vice President. She can't win. She can't do it.
[21:40:00]
And that argument, by the way, enraged David Plouffe, Obama's 2008 campaign manager, who came in at the very end to help Kamala Harris' campaign. He gets -- he would get so mad about it, because he would say, If you didn't -- if you didn't think that she could do the job, why did you pick her to be Vice President?
COLLINS: And they wanted -- some people wanted, Whitmer, and thought that she was a mistake.
THOMPSON: We actually think Biden--
TAPPER: We think Biden--
THOMPSON: --Biden's heart was with Whitmer. I think there were people like Ron Klain, James -- James Clyburn, Cedric Richmond, that were pushing him and lobbied him to pick Kamala Harris. They felt that they were worried about a schism between the progressive and moderate wings of the party, like Bernie and Hillary.
And also, post the murder of George Floyd, I think there was a feeling that black woman had been, you know, the most loyal base of the Democratic Party, and that it didn't have to just be a woman Vice President, as Biden had promised, but it should also be a black woman as well.
COLLINS: Yes, a lot of fascinating things in here, including about the Hur report, and including in part, some aides read through it, and saw it, and weren't disturbed necessarily by his ability, or inability, to answer full questions, but by what he did say about classified documents.
TAPPER: Justice Department officials, who first saw the Hur report, before it was released, read it and thought, Oh, my God, Joe Biden broke the law.
Because that was -- Hur had three basic conclusions. Joe Biden, without question, mishandled classified information. But he couldn't get, two -- he couldn't get a conviction because -- because he would appear so sympathetic and old, a well-meaning elderly man with a poor memory, to a jury. And therefore, and three, therefore he wasn't going to bring charges. That enraged both sides.
But our reporting is that this was really an intellectually honest argument. He came to the conclusion, Biden did mishandle this, but Biden seemed so addled in that -- in those five hours of interviews that they did.
COLLINS: Yes, and now that the book is out, and everyone can read through and see what happened, and especially the day by day after the debate performance with you.
I want you both to respond to a Biden spokesperson, who put out a statement, as this was coming out, and some excerpts that said, There's nothing in the book that shows Joe Biden failed to do his job, as you alleged. Says, Nor did they prove their allegations that there was a cover up or conspiracy. Nowhere do they show that our national security was threatened or where the President wasn't otherwise engaged in the important matters of the Presidency.
TAPPER: We should note, first of all, they gave that statement before the book came out, and before they had a copy of the book.
But the book actually, for anyone who reads it, proves, and I think all the reviews has -- have agreed with this, whether The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Los Angeles Times, Kirkus, Publishers Weekly, The Atlantic, they've all agreed, we do proved the case that there is a cover up.
And the question about national security. Don't take our word for it. There are two senators in the book.
Senator Mark Warner of Virginia has a very troubling conversation with Biden. Warner is worried, because the Biden administration is about to release 11 terrorists from Gitmo, and a lot of people on the Senate Intelligence Committee are worried they're going to rejoin the fight. This is right after Hamas attacked Israel. He talks to Biden on the phone. He's worried Biden doesn't even understand the basic arguments here.
And then another time, Senator Bennet, another Democrat who supports Biden, goes to the White House, in June 2024, for an immigration event. Biden is really out of it, really glitchy, really upsetting Bennet. And Bennet leaves the White House that day thinking, Well, no wonder our immigration policy is such a mess. This guy can't manage the portfolio. He can't handle competing factions. Whatever you think of Trump, he's able to do that.
THOMPSON: Yes, just to add, I am sure many people, including the first -- the former first family, and the people around him, believed that statement.
The fact is that many senior officials in the administration, including Cabinet members, including senior officials, in the White House, disagree, and they feel that his governance was affected by the limitations that came with his age, both energy and otherwise.
COLLINS: Jake Tapper. Alex Thompson. The book is "Original Sin," and it is out now. Thank you so much.
THOMPSON: Thanks for having us.
TAPPER: Thanks, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: (inaudible) the several big U.S. police departments, ones you'll be very familiar with. My source tonight is the Minneapolis mayor, who talks about what this decision means for his city, just five days before the five-year anniversary of George Floyd's death.
[21:45:00]
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COLLINS: Tonight, the Justice Department is moving to abandon federal oversight of police departments in Louisville and Minneapolis, major cities involved in police reform deals in the wake of two high-profile police killings.
The agreements, which are known as consent decrees, were implemented by the Biden Justice Department, after it said it found a pattern of excessive force and discriminatory practices.
The 2020 killings of George Floyd in Minneapolis, and Breonna Taylor in Louisville, both at the hands of white police officers, spurred these investigations, and also the reform efforts that followed. But the Trump Justice Department is now arguing that those reforms aren't in the public interest.
The Justice Department's Civil Rights Division is also closing investigations into a half dozen other police departments, around the country, as you can see here, highlighted.
My next source is the Minneapolis mayor, Jacob Frey.
And it's great to have you here, sir.
How does your city plan to respond to this announcement, from the Justice Department today?
[21:50:00]
MAYOR JACOB FREY, (D) MINNEAPOLIS, MINNESOTA: Minneapolis is serious about our commitment to police reform, even if the President of the United States is not. The bottom line is, regardless of what the White House does here, we are moving forward with these necessary reforms, anyway.
We have been doing the work. And just yesterday, we got a report from an independent evaluator, showing that Minneapolis was making more progress towards these reforms than virtually any city in the country under a consent decree.
So, Donald Trump can do whatever he wants. But the bottom line is, in Minneapolis, we're going to do the right thing. We've had people calling for years for this necessary police reform, and we're going to make sure it gets done for the sake of our city.
COLLINS: OK. So, you're still going to -- going to implement them anyway.
What we heard, in terms of the argument from the DOJ, including from Harmeet Dhillon, she's the Assistant Attorney General for Civil Rights, basically argued that these deals meant that local police were micromanaged, and that complying with them had the price tag of potentially millions of dollars.
Does she have a point at all with any of that? FREY: No, she doesn't have a point. This is not about micromanaging police. It's about making sure that our police are complying with the law, and that every interaction that they have on the street, they're treating people with dignity and respect.
This is about making the policy shifts, making sure that police understand what those policy shifts are. It's about training, accountability, and then ultimately, how people feel about the interaction they're having with the police force on the street.
And by the way, we don't need to continue to, like, fly to these opposite extremes here. The opposite of Donald Trump extremism is not the opposite extreme. We can have a police force that is properly funded. And simultaneously, we can make sure that we're doing the right reforms that people need to see, and by the way, that are long overdue.
COLLINS: And so, what does this look like in terms of impact, in your view? I mean, obviously, you said you're going to continue with the reforms. What about an area that doesn't?
FREY: We already have a state settlement agreement that is in place. As I mentioned, we already had an independent evaluation come in yesterday, and they said, we're doing the necessary work to see the progress that is so essential and is long overdue.
And in all of the other areas that go beyond that state settlement agreement, that are part of this consent decree, we're going to do it anyway. We're going to make sure that we are evaluated, that everybody sees transparently, have we hit the mark, or have we fallen short?
And I'm certain that we will both hit the mark, and we will fall short sometimes, but I think that's how you regain trust. That's how you build trust with people, is you show them, Here's what we're doing, and you're honest about it, where you haven't quite hit the mark.
COLLINS: We're just days away, and this is kind of hard to believe, from the five-year anniversary of George Floyd's death. That will be this Sunday. The administration has been arguing that what we're seeing today is not timed to that, that that's not why. It's because of what's happening with court deadlines.
I wonder, though, if you personally, and your city, are bracing for what some people on the far-right are lobbying President Trump for right now, which is to pardon Derek Chauvin, as he is serving this 22- year sentence for killing George Floyd.
FREY: Well, first off, give me a break. The Trump administration has had every opportunity to attempt to dismiss this consent decree, in the months prior. They've had more than a few opportunities, where they could have come forward and said, Hey, you know what? We're not interested in going forward with a consent decree. We're going to dismiss it.
They didn't do that. They asked for extension after extension, delay after delay. And, of course, it's pure political theater, because that's all that Donald Trump cares about, that they would, of course try to dismiss the same week as the fifth anniversary of George Floyd's murder.
Now, I can't predict what he's going to do with regard to Derek Chauvin. But we do know that all Donald Trump cares about is political theater. And it would be exactly that. Because if Derek Chauvin was pardoned, the only thing that would change is which prison he's located in. He'd be moved from a federal prison to a state prison, to continue out the sentence that he has under state law.
So, I can't predict exactly what he's going to do, Trump. I don't think anybody can predict it. But here's the thing. Doing something like that would be completely performative, just like the attempted dismissal of this consent decree.
COLLINS: What message, do you think, it would send, though, if he did?
FREY: Well, the message that he's apparently trying to send is that he will back police, and doesn't care about holding them accountable to the law.
Well, here's the thing, I support police officers. It's an honorable profession. But it is more honorable and more professional when they are doing their job and abiding by the Constitution, at the same time.
[21:55:00]
Again, the opposite of Donald Trump extremism is not the opposite extreme. We can do things well and thoughtfully, here in Minneapolis. And I don't know, all this garbage that Donald Trump is pumping out, as quick as he possibly can, we don't need to succumb to it. We don't need to succumb to that kind of chaos.
The message that we've got to our residents is, We're going to do right by them. We're going to make sure we're implementing the necessary reforms. And we're going to get the job done, whether or not the White House is on board.
COLLINS: Mayor Jacob Frey, thank you for your time tonight.
FREY: Thank you for having me.
COLLINS: Coming up next. Like father, like son. One of the President's sons is teasing a future White House run.
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COLLINS: Tonight, the figure who helped orchestrate JD Vance's rise, in part, to become the Vice President, is now potentially interested in higher office himself. That person happens to be President Donald Trump's son.
Donald Trump Jr., seeming to tease a future presidential run today when he was asked about it at an Economic Forum in Qatar.
[22:00:00] (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP JR., PRESIDENT TRUMP'S SON: So the answer is, I don't know. Maybe one day, you know, that calling is there. I'll always be very active in terms of being a vocal proponent of these things. I think my father has truly changed the Republican Party. I think it's the America First party.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: We shall see what the future holds.
One thing we do know, tomorrow, here on THE SOURCE, I will be sitting down with the HHS Secretary, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., as the White House is expected to release its highly-anticipated Make America Healthy Again report tomorrow. Tune in for the full interview, here, 9 o'clock Eastern, tomorrow night.
Thanks so much for joining us.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" is up next.
