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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Trump's Move To Ban International Students At Harvard Blocked; Dem Sen. Pushes Back Against RFK Jr. On Milwaukee Lead Crisis; Trump's Apple Ultimatum: Make iPhones In U.S. Or Pay 25 Percent Tariff. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired May 23, 2025 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: A programming note, before we hand things over to "THE SOURCE."
George Clooney, starring in Broadway's "Good Night, And Good Luck," presented live on CNN, in a first-of-its-kind broadcast. It airs Saturday, June 7th, at 07:00 p.m., on CNN, and streaming on CNN.com.
The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Straight from THE SOURCE tonight.
Harvard hitting back, accusing the Trump administration of carrying out a campaign of retribution, as a federal judge puts the brakes on the President's new ban.
Also, that price you pay for your iPhone might get a lot higher, starting this summer, as President Trump is now taking aim directly at Apple.
And about last night, what you heard from Health and Human Services Secretary, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., here on the show, about the federal response to a crisis in Milwaukee's schools, over lead. A prominent U.S. Senator says that that doesn't line up with the facts. That Senator will join me live, tonight.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
Tonight, thousands of college students are left in limbo and worry, that a heated battle that is underway between the Trump administration and Harvard University could upend the education they've built their entire lives around.
Even as a federal judge has halted the Trump administration's latest move against Harvard, that ban on enrolling all international students, President Trump made clear that he has not finished looking for ways to use the power of his office, to force an institution, that dates back to 1636, to capitulate to his demands.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Are you considering stopping other universities, besides Harvard, from accepting foreign students?
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Well, we're taking a look at a lot of things. And, as you know, billions of dollars has been paid to Harvard. How ridiculous is that? Billions. And they have $52 billion as an endowment. They have $52 billion. And this country is paying billions and billions of dollars, and then give student loans, and they have to pay back the loans. So, Harvard is going to have to change its ways.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now, this is just the latest move. The administration has already frozen billions in federal funding for research, threatened to revoke Harvard's tax-exempt status, canceled millions in Homeland Security grants, and is now telling Harvard, No more international students are allowed. That leaves those students with the choice of leaving the university or leaving the United States.
A federal judge has quickly moved to pause that plan for now, citing, in part, the very students who are caught in the middle.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEO GERDEN, HARVARD STUDENT: We are being used, essentially as poker chips, in a battle between the White House and Harvard, and it feels, honestly, very dehumanizing.
BRETT CARDENAS, HARVARD STUDENT: Times have gotten a lot scarier for international students, and a lot less secure.
JASON CARROLL, HARVARD STUDENT: That's not what I signed up for when I accepted my position as a student at Harvard.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Asked about blocking students, like the ones you just heard from there, this is how the President answered that question.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I do. But a lot of the people need remedial math. Did you see that? Where these students can't add two and two, and they go to Harvard, they want remedial math, and they're going to teach remedial math at Harvard.
Now, wait a minute. So why would they get in? How can somebody that can't add, or has very basic skills, how do they get into Harvard? Why are they there? And then you see those same people picketing and screaming at the United States, and screaming at -- you know, they're antisemitic, or they're something. We don't want troublemakers here.
But how do people that can't when -- when Harvard comes out with a statement that they're going to teach some of their students remedial math? That's basic math. That's not the deal.
(END VIDEO CLIP) COLLINS: My lead sources tonight are:
President Trump's former acting Homeland Security Secretary, Chad Wolf.
And the former President and CEO of the NAACP, Harvard professor, Cornell William Brooks.
And it's great to have you both here on this tonight.
Professor Brooks, let me start with you, because obviously this has a huge effect on international students, both the current ones and prospective as well. What do you make of the argument that you're hearing out of the White House today?
CORNELL WILLIAM BROOKS, FORMER PRESIDENT & CEO, NAACP, HARVARD UNIVERSITY: So, first of all, let me start by saying, I teach at a school, the Harvard Kennedy School, where almost 60 percent of the students are international students. They come from every corner of the globe.
So my first response to what the President has said, at the very outset, is this. How can an administration which has a post-doctorate degree in banning books tell Harvard University how to teach? Point one.
[21:05:00]
Point two, we have seen over and over in the courts, the Trump administration lose, the Trump administration embarrass itself, with respect to making claims under the Constitution, and violate the law in an effort to punish, engage in revenge and retaliation with respect to Harvard.
How do we know that? Number one, the Trump administration attempted to ban and is attempting to ban students from all across the world, simply because Harvard won't carry out the White House's political agenda.
So, in other words, students from Palestine and Israel are banned, ostensibly, because and -- because, presumably they are antisemitic. Students from Switzerland and Estonia are banned, presumably because--
COLLINS: Yes.
WILLIAM BROOKS: --they are woke, or they're standing for DEI.
But, to be clear, the position of the Trump administration violates the First Amendment. It violates America -- the Civil -- the Procedure Act, and violates due process--
COLLINS: Yes. And that's what--
WILLIAM BROOKS: --over and over again.
COLLINS: And that's what we've been hearing the school argue, is that it violates their First Amendment rights. Other schools have argued that as well.
Secretary Wolf, I do want you to weigh in here. Because what we heard from the current DHS Secretary Kristi Noem, she says that Harvard failed to, quote, Adhere to the law. She did not say, though, which law it was that they are accusing Harvard of breaking, of failing to adhere to.
Do you see a law that is on the books that Harvard has violated here, in your view?
CHAD WOLF, FORMER ACTING HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY UNDER PRES. TRUMP: Well, what I know is that DHS asked for a number of documents, from Harvard, to verify and to look into the students, the foreign students, there at Harvard, right?
Again, I think it's important to remember that folks coming on over internationally here, this is a benefit -- you know, provided by the United States government. It is not a right. Harvard does not get to pick whether or not students get to stay or not. That is the federal government's job.
And so, if the Department of Homeland Security is asking Harvard for more information? Because a state like Massachusetts does not share information with ICE, and it's asking for more information on those foreign students, because some of them may be deportable? And Harvard doesn't provide that? Then there's little recourse that the department has.
And, again, this was all stated in a letter to Harvard president, and Harvard chose not to provide that information to DHS.
COLLINS: But they said that they did respond, and DHS just essentially argued that their response was insufficient, was the latest I saw the back-and-forth on that.
And Professor, on that point, though?
WOLF: Well--
COLLINS: Go ahead, Secretary.
WOLF: No, no, no. Again, I think Harvard knows what information that the department is asking for. You can respond any number of ways. So yes, I'm sure they did respond with something. Obviously, as you indicated, DHS indicated that it was insufficient.
COLLINS: But Professor, on that front, I mean, essentially they -- to your point, they're not -- you know, they accused them of facilitating the Communist China Party. They're not just banning students from China, they're banning all international students.
WILLIAM BROOKS: Yes.
COLLINS: And part of their argument is that the campus at Harvard is an unsafe environment, and they said the school employs racist DEI policies. That's a quote there from the DHS. As a professor there, what would you say to that?
WILLIAM BROOKS: I would say, let's focus on the facts. Harvard issued two reports, one with respect to antisemitism, one with respect to Islamophobia.
Harvard conducted surveys. Harvard spoke with professors, staff, students, all across the campus. Put forward a set, a long set of recommendations, and has taken steps to address all forms of hate, antisemitism, and Islamophobia, anti-black discrimination, on the campus. And at the very beginning of the antisemitism report, the report asked, Allow us to take on the problem and to literally bring all parts of the university together.
I want to make two points here, with respect to the -- to my colleague's previous point. Number one, simply repeating your point, a point (ph) is not a legal argument made. Harvard is providing the records that the law requires it to provide. What Harvard is not doing is treating international students as though they were domestic terrorists. And that is, in fact, what the administration is trying to do. And we don't -- we have no responsibility to capitulate to that.
COLLINS: But Secretary Wolf, on this front, just of what this means, and students who are caught in the limbo here of, Can I go to school at Harvard, or can I not, if I'm an international student?
You've talked before, about wanting to attract the best and the brightest talent to the United States. And I wonder, if you look at this, and worry that some of these students, who may be in that category, are going to suffer as a result of this just carte blanche policy?
[21:10:00]
WOLF: Well, I think that's a question for Harvard. Harvard has the decision, has the ability, to provide the department the information it has asked for, it has requested.
It's in Harvard's hands to do the right thing. And if they choose not to, they continue to choose to go down this road? Then unfortunately, 20 percent or more of their student body, which is foreign students, which are paying full freight, right? This is a money-maker for Harvard, let's just be clear about that.
COLLINS: But you don't think some of the requests are over-the-top for a university?
WOLF: That they are going -- they will suffer, because Harvard cannot make the right decision.
COLLINS: You don't think some of the requests, though, coming out of the White House are over-the-top, in terms of everything that they've taken to Harvard so far?
WOLF: I don't. And, again, but this, this specifically that we're talking about, is a request from the Department of Homeland Security, making sure that they understand who those students are, and whether or not they are deportable.
Now, I understand, the faculty at Harvard doesn't like that. They don't want to see anyone removed. They don't like deportations. But that is the job of the Department of Homeland Security. That's the job that Congress has given them.
And far too long, this student visa program has not been administered, has been little to no oversight. And I think what the President and his team are saying, as they've said in other parts of immigration law, is, We're actually going to enforce the law. We're actually going to provide some oversight here, and we're going to hold not only students, but institutions, to the letter of the law.
COLLINS: We'll see what happens in the courts here.
WILLIAM BROOKS: Kaitlan--
COLLINS: Chad Wolf. Cornell William Brooks. Thank you both so much.
WILLIAM BROOKS: Thank you.
COLLINS: Also, we have some breaking news here on this Friday night to fill you in on. At the White House, President Trump and his Secretary of State/also acting National Security Advisor, Marco Rubio, are overhauling, and if critics are according -- saying this tonight that they are gutting the White House nerve center, which is in charge of advising the President on national security, military and foreign policy matters.
That is the National Security Council. It sits right to the right of the White House that you're looking at here, in the building next to it. The National Security Advisor typically has his own office inside the West Wing. It's been a nexus of presidential decision-making since it was established under President Truman in 1947.
And tonight, we are hearing from sources, here at CNN, that more than 100 NSC staffers have been placed on leave.
My White House insiders are here tonight.
Jeff Mason of Reuters.
And Josh Rogin of The Washington Post.
And it's great to have you both here.
Josh, the NSC's role had already kind of been diminished to a degree in this White House. It wasn't seen as a big stronghold, in terms of decision-making. But I wonder what you make of the functional impact of a move like cutting a 100 staffers.
JOSH ROGIN, LEAD GLOBAL SECURITY ANALYST, THE WASHINGTON POST INTELLIGENCE: Sure. Well, Kaitlan, it's actually pretty normal for Republican administrations to slash the size of the NSC staff, and for Democratic administrations to then restore the size. That's something we've seen many, many times. What's new here is that, first of all, the way they did it, firing a 100 people on a Friday afternoon, giving them 30 minutes to clear out their desks.
And second of all, the fact that the people who are now in charge of the NSC staff are from a different faction than the people who left it, than the Mike Waltz faction. The new people in charge are Andrew -- Andrew Baker, who's worked for Vice President Vance, and Robert Gabriel, who's a former aide to Stephen Miller.
So what we're seeing is a slashing and a reorganization that masks a bigger story, which is that the MAGA people, the Trump loyalists, have taken over the NSC, and that's a win in the internal fratricide, in the factional battles that are riling inside the administration at all times. And I think, in the end, that will be a much bigger impact than simply shrinking the size of the NSC.
COLLINS: Yes, it's a good point in terms of how Republicans have viewed the NSC typically, and how Democrats have viewed it.
Jeff, I wonder what this says to you about how decisions are going to be made, when it comes to huge foreign policy matters, none of which are in shortage, right now, that are facing President Trump and his national security team.
JEFF MASON, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, REUTERS: Well, true that about the number of decisions. I think that that the decision-making process for the President is pretty similar, whether it's having to do with national security and foreign policy as it is with domestic policy and politics.
I remember him saying, during an interview, way back when he was running for president, the first time in 2016, when asked about who he listened to, and who he thought was the smartest person in the room, or -- I can't remember the exact question. And he basically said, I take my own counsel. I listen to my own advice.
COLLINS: Yes.
MASON: And that applied back then. It applied throughout his first term, and it applies now. And I think for that reason, just on a kind of macro level, he doesn't feel like he needs a big NSC any more than he needs the 20 percent or 30 or 40 or 50 percent of staff in the federal government that's being cut, for other reasons, because that's just -- that's not how he governs, it's not how he leads, it's not how he operates.
COLLINS: Yes, I mean, even a National Security Advisor, the principal there, was not replaced after Mike Waltz was ousted from that role.
[21:15:00]
Josh, on this point, though, that you were making about the ideology and who is -- who is going into that and taking over those two deputy positions. It makes me think back to the strikes in Yemen, the disagreement we saw about and read about in that group chat, where actually JD Vance was someone saying, I'm not sure this is consistent with our views on Europe right now. He was the one who was in the minority in that view, in that -- in that group chat.
ROGIN: Right. That's a -- that's a great point. Because, while Jeff is exactly right, the President has his own foreign policy, and Trump's going to do what Trump's going to do. A lot of decisions don't get to Trump's level, and they're decided at this NSC level.
And the fact that Mike Waltz was a huge supporter of Ukraine, although he didn't often talk a lot publicly about it, was really relevant. Because JD Vance is on the opposite. He doesn't like Ukraine at all, and now, his guy is in charge of the NSC. So you could just imagine how big of a change that is.
So what you have is a sort of a battle between the traditional Republicans, who have a sort of a more hawkish, some would accuse them of being neocon, but it's really just a regular Republican kind of foreign policy view. And then the restrainers, the MAGA people, the loyalists who want to drastically change U.S. foreign policy, to be more isolationist. And this change in the NSC represents a huge victory for that latter group.
COLLINS: Yes.
ROGIN: And that could have implications on lots and lots of American foreign policy issues.
COLLINS: Yes, that's a good point. Josh Rogin, thank you for that.
Jeff Mason, stick around. We're going to bring you back in a moment.
Coming up here, on THE SOURCE. RFK Jr. told us, last night, the CDC is on the ground, in Milwaukee, addressing the city's growing school lead crisis. My source tonight, Wisconsin senator, Tammy Baldwin, says that's not true.
[21:20:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, the City of Milwaukee is pushing back against a claim made by the Health Secretary, RFK Jr., who told me, here, on this show, last night, that the CDC is helping with the city's school lead crisis.
Milwaukee says that more than 44,000 students may have been exposed to lead paint, which can cause nausea, seizures, even potentially brain damage. And CNN reported, last month, that the CDC had denied the city's request for help with screening efforts after the federal agency's lead experts had been fired.
Despite that, the HHS Secretary insisted, in our interview, last night, that federal health officials from the CDC are actively helping.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) COLLINS: You were asked about the lead crisis in Milwaukee schools. You told Congress, quote, We have a team on the ground in Milwaukee.
The City said that's not true, and that they are still not getting the help that they want from the CDC.
Do you know who is on the ground? Who were--
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR., HHS SECRETARY: The CDC--
(CROSSTALK)
COLLINS: --technicians on the ground.
KENNEDY JR.: --is giving them assistance with their lab, their analytics and advice.
COLLINS: They just said, one technician was on the ground.
KENNEDY JR.: I can't tell you how many are on the ground in the City of Milwaukee. But I can tell you, we are there.
COLLINS: But you don't know how many?
KENNEDY JR.: I can't tell you how many right now.
COLLINS: So, I mean, this is from the Milwaukee Health Commissioner and Senator Tammy Baldwin.
KENNEDY JR.: We have 82,000 -- we have 62,000 employees.
COLLINS: Yes.
KENNEDY JR.: And I -- well, you could hear me read my other exchanges with Tammy Baldwin, and you know. Anyway, I'm not necessarily believing what Senator Baldwin says.
COLLINS: So you're disputing and saying that there are more than one CDC employees on the ground?
KENNEDY JR.: I -- like I said, we have 62,000 employees. I'm not sure how many we have deployed to Milwaukee. I'm happy to check and give you that information.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My source tonight is the name, the Senator, that you just heard, the Secretary mention there, Democratic Senator Tammy Baldwin of Wisconsin.
And it's great to have you here, Senator. Because you heard him essentially saying he is not believing you, or the other health officials in Milwaukee, when you say, there are no CDC people on the ground.
How do you respond to him tonight? SEN. TAMMY BALDWIN (D-WI): Well, Kaitlan, I know your team has done the research too.
There are no CDC childhood lead experts on the ground in Milwaukee, because Secretary Kennedy fired all of them. That's why Milwaukee's outreach for help and assistance and resources, during this lead crisis, was denied, because there are no experts left in that branch at CDC. Now, either Secretary Kennedy is lying, or he is uninformed, and I actually don't know which is worse. But this is deeply disturbing.
And I want you to understand the scale of this. We're talking about six public schools, and we're talking about 1,500 students who have been displaced because of lead presence in the school. And the very experts who should be able to come to the assistance of Milwaukee Public Schools, and the City of Milwaukee's Public Health Department, are no longer there.
COLLINS: And, I mean, either the CDC is on the ground or they're not. And you're saying right now that there are not CDC people on the ground in Milwaukee?
BALDWIN: What I would tell you about what Secretary Kennedy might be talking about, because this is what I've had verified from the City of Milwaukee's Public Health Department, is that there was a technician on the ground to validate some new instrumentation that the Public Health Lab had just received.
The request for that technician had nothing to do with the public health crisis that has unfolded in Milwaukee, because of the presence of lead in these schools. It's unrelated.
[21:25:00]
And so, the reason Milwaukee cannot access the expertise, the guidance, is because all of the members who staffed the Childhood Lead mitigation branch of CDC have been fired in those sweeping mass firings and RIFs that have happened throughout HHS, but in this -- in this particular instance, really harming my constituents in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.
COLLINS: The statement that you just referenced there, about the technician. So you heard the Secretary there at the end. He said he would get us the numbers. He said he didn't know exactly what it was. He talked about how big the CDC is. Understandable, he's a lot in his purview.
But then, we reached out today and said, following up, we'd like to know how many staffers are on the ground.
And just to the point of what you're talking about there, that one technician, this is the quote we got from the HHS tonight, saying, the CDC is assisting with validating new lab instrumentation used for environmental lead testing. Staff from [the Milwaukee lab] are focused on the lead response and other routine testing while the CDC will assist with testing validation, lab quality management, and regulatory requirement documentation to onboard the new lab instrument.
So essentially, you're saying there is no one from the CDC who is helping test kids and figure out whether or not they were exposed to lead paint in Milwaukee?
BALDWIN: That is correct. The technician who is -- was out in Milwaukee from, I believe, May 5th to May 16th, was validating a new instrument. And that instrument can be used to test lead. But the request for that instrument and that validation had nothing to do with the current unfolding crisis, regarding lead, in the present -- present in six schools.
And I just have to -- you know, while the scale of this crisis in Milwaukee is very significant, this isn't the only place in HHS, where sudden freezes in funding, and sudden staff firings, have impacted incredibly important functions--
COLLINS: Yes.
BALDWIN: --like the NIH and Head Start and across the board. And the fact that the Secretary is not taking accountability, for his own actions, is deeply disturbing to me.
COLLINS: But I think the question that everyone watching is, Where is the CDC? If you're saying that they're not there? He's saying that they are there? I mean, people are wondering, these kids could be exposed to lead, and want to know why the CDC would not be there, on the ground, helping. I mean, how do you even -- what happens next here?
BALDWIN: Well, hopefully, Secretary Kennedy, and those surrounding him, will be hearing these pleas to hire back these experts, who are able to help communities, in not just Milwaukee, but others, prevent and respond to lead poisoning in children. That is what their training is in. That's what they're doing.
And the fact that in the first few weeks of this administration, they've been fired, and it seems like no effort has been made to bring them back on board, so that they can be deployed to Milwaukee, again, should raise serious questions about the competency of this Secretary, to run this department, and all of its important functions.
COLLINS: Senator Tammy Baldwin, thank you for your time tonight.
BALDWIN: Thank you.
COLLINS: Meanwhile, at the White House tonight, the President has reignited his tariff threats, firing off several of them, this morning, against Apple and the European Union. But they could affect you, here inside the United States. Our insiders will fill us in, next.
[21:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) COLLINS: President Trump is now threatening Apple with an industry- altering ultimatum. Either build hundreds of millions of iPhones in the United States or pay tariffs of at least 25 percent on iPhones that are made overseas.
The President says he's not stopping there, making clear that Apple's rivals and some of the biggest tech companies in the world have also been put on notice.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: It would be more. It would be also Samsung and anybody that makes that product. Otherwise, it wouldn't be fair. So anybody that makes that product, and that will start on, I guess, the end of June, it will come out. I think we have that appropriately done by the end of June. So if they make that product. Now, again, when they build their plant here, there's no tariff. So, they're going to be building plants here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My source tonight is Patrick McGee, who is the Author of "Apple in China: The Capture of the World's Greatest Company."
And it's great to have you here tonight.
I should note, when you're listening to that. Tim Cook actually met with President Trump at the White House, this week. It clearly did not stave off whatever he may have been hoping to do so.
Is shifting iPhone production to the United States even possible at this point?
PATRICK MCGEE, AUTHOR, "APPLE IN CHINA": Well, it really isn't. But the pressure that Tim Cook is under is really that he might have to do some semblance of answering that question. So you might have some assembly here, I mean.
But the bind that Trump is putting on Tim Cook is really extraordinary. Remember, Apple doesn't actually manufacture anything themselves. So, it's not even a matter of Tim Cook answering Trump. He would have to convince Foxconn, or Luxshare, or any number of companies to actually set up a supply chain.
[21:35:00]
And Trump's tweet is interesting, that he doesn't just ask for assembly. I mean, he is at least savvy enough to understand that just moving assembly wouldn't be enough. That's not the jobs we'd want. We want the higher value-added. We want the real derisking from China.
But if you're talking about building the depth and breadth of supply chain in America, I mean, you're talking about hundreds of factories. This is the iPhone, after all. It's a really complex device with a 1,000 parts inside. COLLINS: So, if you're an American, and you're listening to that, and you say, OK, well, why shouldn't it be all completely made in the United States? What would you say to that?
MCGEE: Well, how much more do you want to pay for your iPhone, for starters?
But you have to remember that they build 230 million iPhones a year. And this is a really complex product that gets redesigned every year. So it's not like you set up a production line for a car and build the same thing for the next six or seven years. The iPhone has new components, new battery, new cameras, every single year. That makes automation really difficult, that makes the whole process really complex.
And we just don't have like, 18 different things. We don't have the density of the population. We don't have the flexibility of the population. We don't have three kilometer square towns that have 500,000 people inside, which is the sort of thing that you get at Foxconn. I mean, the U.S. is just not a competitor to so many different things.
So, like, I'm really in favor of friend-shoring, right, doing this in Mexico, doing this in India, because doing this in Pittsburgh is ludicrous.
COLLINS: So what does Tim Cook do next here? Do you think he comes out with some kind of announcement, in order to essentially try to not let this happen?
MCGEE: Let's remember what he did last time, which is he really ran the clock out on Trump's presidency. So, in 2017, I believe it was, Trump announced that Tim Cook had promised to build three big, beautiful factories in America. That never came to be.
And I think it's going to be difficult for Tim Cook to sort of make the same claim, because Trump's sort of on to him now, that this is someone who talks out -- the side of his mouth and doesn't actually sort of fulfill the promise.
And he's probably wise to the idea that the $500 billion commitment that Apple made in February, really is -- it doesn't really meet the eye as it were. I mean, that's a lot of money. And the press release saying that they'll build 20,000 jobs doesn't really make any sense. And if it was true, you would have dozens of factories already being put up right now.
And some people, when I -- when I say that, they say, Oh, well, it's only been a few months. No, because that's the second big announcement. In Trump 1.0, Apple announced a $430 billion announcement -- sorry, investment in America. So, if those were real numbers, really about reshoring American jobs, you would have seen so much more over the past decade, really. And you really have seen none of it.
COLLINS: Patrick McGee, thank you for joining tonight. Also joining us here.
CNN Global Economic Analyst, Rana Foroohar.
And Reuters' White House correspondent, Jeff Mason, is back here with me.
And Rana, when you look at this, and what the President was threatening today. Tim Cook wasn't the only one who got a missive. The European Union did too. If they were checking Truth Social this morning, they were not getting good news. The President basically said, he didn't like how the negotiations were going with the EU, and starting a little over a week from today, 50 percent tariff on the European Union.
What does that mean for Americans?
RANA FOROOHAR, CNN GLOBAL ECONOMIC ANALYST, COLUMNIST & ASSOCIATE EDITOR, FINANCIAL TIMES: Oh, I mean, the kind of inflation you would be looking at in any sort of a European product, European cars, white goods, dishwashers, appliances, not to mention luxury products, they would become unaffordable for many people.
And it's interesting, some of the connective thread between the threats on Tim Cook, and the threats on the EU, is that there are trade negotiations going on with India, right now, which is where Apple makes a lot of its phones. It's going to be moving that from China into India, wants to, and the European Union. And neither side, neither the Indians nor the EU, are playing ball yet in the way Trump would like to see. And so, you're seeing these threats of large numbers, as you always do.
COLLINS: Yes.
And Jeff, when you hear President Trump, inside the Oval Office, talking about this. I just want people to listen to what he said, in terms of how he's thinking about this, essentially.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: It's time that we play the game the way I know how to play the game.
I'm not looking for a deal. I mean, we've set the deal. It's at 50 percent. But, again, there is no tariff if they build their plant here. Now, if somebody comes in and wants to build a plant here, I can talk to them about a little bit of a delay. But, you know, while they're building their plant, which is something I think that would be appropriate, maybe.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: So, he goes from saying he doesn't want a deal, and then says that he probably wants to avoid this tariff, and quote, We'll see what happens. I think if you're sitting in the European Union, you're wondering, Well, which is it? MASON: Well, absolutely. I mean, it's a little bit hard to follow, because he jumps from the European Union, and the 50 percent tariff that he's planning to add on to that, and then talks about building factories in the United States, which seems to be going back to talking about Apple.
[21:40:00]
I mean, I have a couple questions myself that hopefully we'll have a chance to answer. Which is, one, like, how do you put a tariff on one company? And he was asked a version of that in the Oval today, and said, Well, it won't just be Apple, it will be Samsung and others who make smartphones.
But even that doesn't answer the question of how you use the tool of tariffs, which are applied to other trading nations, not to specific corporations or enterprises. And the White House hasn't answered that, and the President didn't answer that.
But back to the broader question that you're also asking about the EU. One of the things that we've watched and seen over (inaudible) President Trump and these tariffs is that he will issue a threat, and then he'll pull back from it, if he feels like negotiations are going in a way that isn't favorable.
So, if I were on the EU side, right now, I would certainly be concerned about that, and I think it's going to lead to some higher prices. But it doesn't mean it's going to stay that way.
COLLINS: Yes.
Well, and just in terms of what this looks like with the deal-making here.
FOROOHAR: Yes.
COLLINS: I think there's a question of what Trump wants, and what he will stick to in an agreement where these leaders in these countries are in limbo kind of.
FOROOHAR: A 100 percent.
And you're hitting something really important for the Europeans, in particular. In some ways, Donald Trump is not only making Europe great again, in that it's becoming more integrated. You see the U.K. now saying, Gosh, we're unsure about where the Trump administration is going, we want to come back into the security and trade pact.
You see Europe starting to have more conversations with Beijing. If I were sitting in Beijing, right now, I would take this opportunity and go talk to folks in Brussels, and say, It's time for us to be making deals.
So, I think that there's this assumption Trump has that, the U.S. is in charge. Other countries are moving pieces around.
COLLINS: To fill that vacuum, you think?
FOROOHAR: Absolutely.
COLLINS: We'll see what this looks like. Rana, great to have you here on set.
FOROOHAR: Thank you.
COLLINS: Jeff Mason, thank you as well for joining us.
Up next. You're going to love who's joining me. The best-selling author, James Patterson, is here, on what he says is the most important book he has written.
[21:45:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: To all the dads, or soon-to-be dads, watching, the best- selling author, James Patterson, hopes that you can read his new book in just one hour.
It is titled "The #1 Dad Book: Be the Best Dad You Can Be in 1 Hour." And it's a guide on how to respond and deal with the obstacles that come with fatherhood, from the tough conversations, to being present, to just simply dealing with the pressure of being a father.
Recent research shows that 13 percent -- up to 13 percent of new fathers in the United States experience postpartum depression, at some point.
And James Patterson is here, and joins me now.
And it's so great to have you here.
Because, obviously, I'm sure a lot of people watching have read multiple of your books. This is a very different kind of book for you.
JAMES PATTERSON, AUTHOR, "THE #1 DAD BOOK": Yes.
COLLINS: And I wondered, as a father, what made you -- why it was important for you to write this?
PATTERSON: I think there are a couple of things.
One is, what you just mentioned, that dads are having a lot of trouble in the country. They're angry. They're upset. They're nervous. They're overwhelmed. They're not the breadwinners, in a lot of cases.
The other piece is just from my experience. The only time my dad ever hugged me was on his deathbed, and he apologized, and he cried, which he never would do, and I told him he was a great dad. So that's a piece of it. Just, with our son, Jack, I hug him every day. Every time we see, Jack gets a hug.
COLLINS: And how did that shape how you have been a dad, obviously beyond hugging Jack every time you see him?
PATTERSON: Well, there it is. There's my boy. Just that. Well, and the book -- the book doesn't lecture at guys, because they don't want to hear that. But it does talk about hugging, and the ability to say, I love you, which a lot of guys can't do. About listening, which is really key. About dads telling their kids their story, and listening to the kids' stories, which is -- which is huge.
And I guarantee, anybody that's what -- yes, we listen, listen -- and it was a great show, but we're just listening. This gives us a chance to actually do something tonight. Because I guarantee, any dad that reads this book, there will be a better dad, and a better partner, after they read the book. And that's pretty huge. Not perfect. Just better.
COLLINS: Yes. I mean, everyone could use help. And I just wonder, as you were a new dad, is there something that you wished you had known then, that you know now, as you were parenting?
PATTERSON: Yes. Yes. This isn't a book about me. But the only thing I mentioned in the book about me is that, had I done the research, and had I talked to dads the way that I did, preparing for this book, I would have been a better dad.
In particular, for me, it would have been to be more present. I mean, I was working in the house. I saw Jack a lot. But there's to be there, and then there's to really be present, when you're talking to somebody, that would have -- that would have been useful for me, I think.
COLLINS: And I love the tip that you had in here. Obviously, a lot of us are big readers. But you wrote about reading to your kid. But then, once they hit a certain age, changing that, and having them be the ones who are reading to you.
PATTERSON: Yes, there's a big thing here about just making kids responsible for their own lives, encouraging them, but also keeping them as responsible people, and just getting them ready for the world. That's what we want to do. We want them to go out there and have a nice life.
COLLINS: Did you have any favorite books that you read to Jack?
PATTERSON: Crap.
(LAUGHTER)
[21:50:00]
PATTERSON: The book about poop. Poop -- you know, putting up with poop is another piece of, you know, this certainly early, early -- embrace the poop. That's an important thing.
Goodnight Moon. There were a lot of -- you know, when Jack was around eight -- and this book deals with both early fathers and all the way up through raising teenagers. When he was eight or nine, we just said, in the summer, You're going to read every day before you can watch screens an hour or so.
But we went out and got him a dozen books we thought that he would really love. And he wound up reading all the books through the course of the summer, and he just became a really good reader. And it was painless. And he loves books now.
COLLINS: And I think there's another part of that. You mentioned, obviously, when they're younger. But your relationship with your dad also changes over time. Mine certainly has.
PATTERSON: Yes.
COLLINS: I was just FaceTiming with my dad before the show came on air, actually, tonight.
But in terms of how that changes, I wonder what you've learned from--
PATTERSON: Are you going to give him the book? You're going to give him the book, Kaitlan?
COLLINS: Yes, but don't tell him. Because if he's watching right now.
PATTERSON: You're going to give dad, the book?
COLLINS: He'll know what he's going to get.
PATTERSON: All right, OK. Maybe. OK. Maybe not.
COLLINS: Yes, but what has -- what has changed about fatherhood, as Jack has gotten older?
PATTERSON: I'm sorry, though. In terms of the change -- yes, yes, yes.
COLLINS: Yes.
PATTERSON: Yes. No, I think we -- we talk a lot now, and I think the talk is better. And I think we both are present, which is really -- which is really nice. I think the relationship has gotten better and better and better. And that's a nice thing.
And Jack talks to us. He calls almost every night. I don't know what that means, but I think it's good. I think we did a good job. Well, Sue. Sue's the real hero here, my wife.
COLLINS: We all agree, Sue is the real hero.
PATTERSON: Well.
COLLINS: James Patterson, as always, it's great to have you. Thank you for joining us. And congrats on the new book.
PATTERSON: Now, thank you so much. Yes, yes, yes, thanks.
COLLINS: A great gift for Father's Day.
Up next here. We're going to take a behind-the-scenes look at what happened at the White House, this week. That explosive ambush in the Oval Office, another consequential week, and key moments, those are ahead.
[21:55:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: From President Trump's call with the Russian leader, Vladimir Putin, to yet another wild Oval Office meeting, and also, my sit-down with the HHS Secretary, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., it has been a major and consequential week at the White House. Here is a look at what happened behind-the-scenes.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ON SCREEN TEXT: Monday, May 19.
COLLINS: President Trump had a two-hour phone call with Russian President Putin today. And though it didn't seem to yield any breakthroughs, he described it in positive terms on social media after that call happened.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: White House Press pool only.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pool restack.
TRUMP: Would you have any questions?
COLLINS: Did you ask President Putin to meet with you?
TRUMP: About what?
COLLINS: About Ukraine.
TRUMP: Of course I did. I talked to him about it. I said, When are we going to end this, Vladimir? I've known him for a long time now.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you.
COLLINS: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you so much.
JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR & CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Some breaking news in our politics lead now. President Trump just weighed in on the sad news that his predecessor, President Joe Biden has been diagnosed with aggressive prostate cancer.
Kaitlan, what did the President have to say?
COLLINS: Yes, Jake, obviously this was a pressing question for President Trump, his reaction to this news.
TRUMP: I think it's very sad, actually. I'm surprised that it wasn't -- you know, the public wasn't notified a long time ago.
ON SCREEN TEXT: Tuesday, May 20.
TRUMP: We have a tremendously unified party. I don't think we've ever had a party like this. There's some people that want a couple of things that maybe I don't like or that they're not going to get.
REP. CHIP ROY (R-TX): They're trying to run it in through the jet fumes, and I just don't agree with that. I mean, I'll keep working in good faith to try to make the bill as good as it can be, and then decide where things stand. I think it's not the way we should do business.
ON SCREEN TEXT: Wednesday, May 21.
TRUMP: But you do allow them to take land.
CYRIL RAMAPHOSA, PRESIDENT OF SOUTH AFRICA: No, no, no, no.
TRUMP: You do allow them to take land.
RAMAPHOSA: No. Nobody can take land--
TRUMP: And then when they take the land, they kill the white farmer. And when they kill the white farmer, nothing happens to them.
RAMAPHOSA: No.
TAPPER: Let's go straight to CNN's Kaitlan Collins, who's at the White House for us, of course.
COLLINS: Yes, Jake. And if you're someone who's been talking to President Trump about what this visit was going to be like, this was not surprising, because this is something the President has been talking about privately. He has shown these videos that they were shown. So not exactly a surprise to them. But maybe certainly a surprise to the South African delegation.
RAMAPHOSA: People who do get killed, unfortunately, through criminal activity, are not only white people. Majority of them are black people.
ON SCREEN TEXT: Thursday, May 22.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kaitlan's mic. Check one, two. Kaitlan's microphone.
COLLINS: Hi.
KENNEDY JR.: Hey, how are you doing?
COLLINS: Nice to meet you. I'm Kaitlan. How are you?
KENNEDY JR.: Hi, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: You've just unveiled this new report, and a lot of it focuses on chronic disease in children. KENNEDY JR.: This has never happened in the federal government, where you have all the agencies recognizing, we have a chronic disease crisis.
COLLINS: Looking at your April 10th comments, when you were inside the Cabinet meeting, you said, By September, we will know what has caused the autism epidemic, and we'll be able to eliminate those exposures.
KENNEDY JR.: Well, we'll have some of the information to get. The most solid information, it will probably take us another six months.
COLLINS: OK. So, parents should not expect to know what causes autism by September anymore?
[22:00:00]
KENNEDY JR.: Well, we'll see. We're going to -- as I said, we're going to replicate some of the studies that have already been done that look like sound studies, and we'll know a lot from those, and then we'll know a lot more afterwards.
COLLINS: But not the definitive answer by September?
KENNEDY JR.: It depends.
COLLINS: Just to be clear, because it matters.
KENNEDY JR.: It depends what those replicable studies show.
COLLINS: Secretary Kennedy, thank you for your time.
KENNEDY JR.: Good to meet you, Kaitlan.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: A very busy week, here on THE SOURCE. Thanks so much for joining us tonight.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT" is up next.
