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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Musk Formally Ends His Time Working In Government; NBA Icon Commends Harvard For Taking "A Stand For Freedom"; Investigators Suspected Migrant Was Set Up For Threatening Trump Well Ahead Of Noem, DHS Posts. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired May 30, 2025 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RANDI KAYE, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): And now, Swift also owns all her music videos, concert films, album art, and photography, along with unreleased songs, purchased, she wrote, with no strings attached, from a private equity company that had bought her master recordings. Swift told her fans, This is my greatest dream come true.
Randi Kaye. CNN. West Palm Beach, Florida.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: Well done, Taylor.
The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Tonight, with his businesses battered, his reputation bruised, and his face sporting a black eye, Elon Musk got a hero send-off inside the Oval Office.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
And tonight, Elon Musk is getting out of DOGE or, at least, out of Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Elon's really not leaving. He's going to be to be back and forth, I think. I have a feeling. It's his baby, and I think he's going to be doing a lot of things. But Elon's service to America has been without comparison in modern history.
Elon gave an incredible service. Nobody like him. And he had to go through the slings and the arrows, which is a shame, because he's an incredible patriot.
(END VIDEO CLIP) COLLINS: After roughly four months in the federal government, Elon Musk is leaving his role as a Special Government Employee, without having reached anywhere near the $1 trillion in savings that he initially promised, and also without delivering the $5,000 checks that he once speculated could be sent to every American, given how much money his DOGE team was saving.
Musk now says it will happen eventually.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ELON MUSK, BUSINESSMAN AND FORMER SENIOR ADVISOR TO THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm confident that over time, we'll see a trillion dollars of savings and reduction in -- a trillion dollars of waste and fraud reduction.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What was the biggest roadblock from your work?
MUSK: It's mostly just a lot of hard work.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: During his stint inside the federal government, Musk went from relishing the spotlight at times. Remember, when he was at CPAC with that bedazzled chainsaw. To dropping tens of millions of dollars, at one point, in that failed attempt to sway a Wisconsin Supreme Court election. And also, literally selling the President a Tesla, in front of the White House.
The man who, at times, as he carried out his DOGE effort, and tried to slash the federal government, feuded with Cabinet Secretaries, behind closed doors, and nearly got physical with the Treasury secretary, he took a more spiritual view of his work today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MUSK: The DOGE influence will only grow stronger. It's, I liken it to sort of Buddhism. It's like a way of life. So it is permeating throughout the government.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: That scene inside the Oval Office today was a remarkable one, but it also really encapsulated just how much the political reality of DOGE has changed in the last four months.
Musk entered Washington with a lot of goodwill, certainly from Republicans, but also including some of it from Democrats. But he leaves behind the legacy of more than 260,000 federal workers who were fired, took buyouts, or retired early, as part of DOGE's cuts. That's according to a tally tonight by Reuters.
DOGE overall claims to have saved about $175 billion. I should note, and this is important, given how we've seen some of the savings have been put forward, only to later be rescinded, CNN has only been able to verify less than half of that number. Still, the lingering anger in town halls across the country over what DOGE did to communities is something congressional Republicans will still continue to have to face, head-on.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I want to talk about Elon. We know that he is an unelected, unconfirmed billionaire with no experience in government.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So now my next question is, we saw what went in when, uh, when Elon Musk went in and dismantled and took all the data and did all this crazy a** sh*t.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Next question. Since you mentioned Elon Musk. One of the questions we got is, do you support, without limits, the work of DOGE?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now Musk is leaving to tend to his companies amid some complaints that we saw from shareholders, who were worried about how he had bruised their bottom line, during his time in Washington.
As today, inside the Oval Office, he also sought to explain his own black eye.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MUSK: I was just horsing around with Little X, and I said, Go ahead, punch me in the face. And he did. It turns out, even a 5-year-old punching you in the face, actually does--
TRUMP: That was X that did this?
MUSK: Yes. Yes.
TRUMP: X -- X could do it. If you knew X, he could do it.
MUSK: Feeling as well (ph) right now.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.
MUSK: But--
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. President--
MUSK: But I didn't feel -- I didn't really feel much at the time, but I guess it bruises up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:05:00]
COLLINS: My insiders to start us off tonight are:
The Associated Press' Seung Min Kim. WIRED's Leah Feiger.
And Reuters' Jeff Mason.
And Jeff, I want to start with you, just because what a remarkable scene that was today, in terms of watching something that was obviously important to President Trump to do, to have this big send- off for Elon Musk. How would you just sum up what we saw today, and also just what's happened over the last four months?
JEFF MASON, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, REUTERS: Well, I think, for starters, it's worth emphasizing the fact that they had this send-off just a couple days after Elon Musk was critical of President Trump's big, beautiful bill, and talked about how it would raise the deficit, and would have the opposite effect of what he was trying to do with DOGE.
That has to have been part of the calculus behind putting him in the Oval Office, with President Trump today. It was to show that they are on the same page, or to suggest, anyway, that they are on the same page, as this big adviser and mega-donor leaves the White House. President Trump wants to keep him in the fold. And he didn't really sound like he was in the fold, this week.
More broadly, just looking back over the last four months. Look, I mean, I think the President was delighted to have this billionaire at his side, and it was more than just lip service and pretending that he's advising him. Elon traveled on Air Force One, multiple times. Was at the President's homes. And he, I mean, he had a huge impact, in addition to DOGE, just being in the President's inner circle.
COLLINS: Yes.
And Leah, you heard that Elon Musk mentioned Buddhism today, when he was talking about, what is the future of what happens to DOGE's work? I think that is a real question of what this looks like going forward, if there is not this figure, this enigmatic figure, who is also the world's richest man, that's running it. I mean, who's going to be going head-to-head with Cabinet Secretaries?
LEAH FEIGER, SENIOR POLITICS EDITOR, WIRED: To start, I do think it's a little bit early to say that Musk is actually gone. There are a lot of back -- there's a lot of back-and-forth today, with Trump in the Oval Office, where Trump continued to repeat, Oh, he's staying around, he's still with us. And Musk is saying he's going to continue to be an adviser.
And importantly, DOGE isn't going anywhere. WIRED actually reported today that DOGE's activities are currently escalating. We found that -- that we're learning that DOGE is currently recruiting. We've talked to federal employees, who are saying that they're getting a lot of pressure to cut contracts urgently. There's a lot of activity, and there are new faces from DOGE that are appearing in offices, every day, right now.
COLLINS: Well, and questions about, if the work continues, who's the heat shield for that? Because he did take a lot of the criticism for it. He said that everything that happened in the federal government that was wrong, he would get blamed for, and so would the DOGE team. What does it look like when there's not an Elon Musk type figure there?
FEIGER: That's a great question. And obviously, he's taking a lot of his leaders -- it seems that he's taking a lot of his leaders with him. We've had news of Steve Davis' departure and Nicole Hollander. He's taken Katie Miller with him. However, there are a lot of folks that are left behind. And in some ways, it almost becomes a boring entity. Who is flashy that's in charge of this? But I would argue that's when DOGE is actually at its most dangerous.
We reported yesterday, that a man named Baris Akis is -- is actually a leader in DOGE. That name hasn't been coming up a lot. Last February, The Atlantic reported that this man who is a staunch Musk loyalist, and has been with him for years, was denied entrance to DOGE by the Trump White House, who said that this Turkish national -- Turkish green card holder should not actually be cutting federal workers. But we've heard that he is currently there, right now.
COLLINS: Yes, that is a good point, in terms of who's there and the team and what that looks like.
And Seung Min, in terms of just Musk and the personal spotlight that this has put on him. He was asked, today inside the Oval, about a New York Times story that came out on his alleged extensive drug use, that includes use of ketamine, ecstasy. He was reportedly traveling with pill boxes that had Adderall in them.
And when he was asked by a reporter about that, for his response, this is how he responded.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is a New York Times report today that accuses you of blurring the line--
MUSK: Oh, wait, wait, wait.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: --between--
MUSK: Is the New York -- is New York Times, is that the same publication that got a Pulitzer Prize for false reporting on the Russiagate? Is it the same organization?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I got to take my Pulitzer--
MUSK: I think -- I think it is.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: --my Pulitzer reference (ph).
MUSK: I think -- I think it is.
TRUMP: It is. MUSK: But so I think the -- I think the judge just ruled against New York Times for their lies about the Russiagate hoax, and that they might have to give back that Pulitzer Prize. That New York Times? Let's move on. OK. Thank -- next question.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: That's not accurate. It's often something we do hear the President say, though, as well as you saw him smiling there.
I just wonder what you made of how he handled the response to that story.
[21:10:00]
SEUNG MIN KIM, WHITE HOUSE REPORTER, THE ASSOCIATED PRESS, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: He's learned a lot from President Trump about how to kind of go after the media, and attack the source of the reporting.
But throughout Elon Musk's relatively short tenure, in the federal government, it's been really interesting to see how his own personal and business relationships have come into the government spotlight. I mean, you talked about The New York Times report that detailed his alleged drug use. You also saw a lot of his -- a lot of additional scrutiny on his personal businesses.
And I thought that was another fascinating moment, in the Oval Office, earlier today, when he was asked by a reporter about the impact of Trump policies on his business. It wasn't Elon Musk himself who answered. It was Trump who kind of interjected and saying things like, Well, you know, that's when you bring the, you know, you'll bring the manufacturing of his autos back to the United States.
So, it was a really kind of an intermingling and a mixing of his personal business and government that made the last several months of his tenure in government really interesting to watch, and really tumultuous, in many ways.
COLLINS: Yes, certainly, obviously something to keep an eye on here, as -- I should also note, we are expecting President Trump to land, back at Joint Base Andrews, any moment. He has been out in Pennsylvania today.
Great to have you all here. Thank you so much for that.
And speaking of what we've been watching -- there is the President Trump. President Trump now getting off Air Force One. He's at Joint Base Andrews.
He's been delivering that announcement on U.S. Steel, in Pennsylvania today, delivering a speech earlier today, and also announcing he's raising steel and aluminum tariffs from 25 percent to 50 percent, a remarkable number there, as his trade war battle has gone on, including with the courts.
And speaking of the courts, if last night's lengthy tirade did not really do so, the President also made clear today that even the judges that he nominated to the bench -- it looks like the President's coming over. Let's listen to what he has to say.
TRUMP: We've been to a fantastic place, the Commonwealth, Pennsylvania. The steelworkers are very happy we did the tariffs. It's going to put them even -- make them even more competitive. And it's turning out to be a great deal.
I think it's going to be a fantastic deal. $17 million is -- $17 billion is being invested for new steel mills, new everything, and it's going to be something special. So that was in honor of the steelworkers of Pennsylvania. And it was a fantastic time. We had a great day. And it is raining quite hard, but that's OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pennsylvania, the steel capital of the world again.
TRUMP: I think that's going to happen. I think it's going to happen.
Not much. We just had $17 billion given. And again, we're going to have control in the U.S. It's going to be a USA deal. The board is controlled. More importantly, the money is built, you know, it's spent on the facilities. You can't take them and leave and let's put them in a boat. Somebody said, Well, what about that? Supposing they leave? Well, the money is invested on the, you know, on brick-and-mortar. You can't lift it up and take it.
But I think much more importantly, that's going to be a great partnership. And the company, Nippon, is coming in with $17 billion- plus. So it's going to be fantastic for all steelworkers.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is it an acquisition? Is Nippon acquiring U.S. Steel?
TRUMP: It's an investment. It's controlled by the United States. And more importantly, they're spending the money on brick-and-mortar. You can't take it. What are you going to do? Pick it up and move it to Japan? That's not going to happen.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Acquisition (ph) of U.S. Steel?
TRUMP: And, you know, I rejected this about -- and when they finally got it right, I liked it. How happy the steelworkers were. More importantly, you could see, from the Union standpoint, the Union loved it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thousands of -- it means thousands of jobs in Pennsylvania, right?
TRUMP: That's many thousands of jobs.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: With the State of Pennsylvania--
TRUMP: That's a lot--
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: --going forward.
TRUMP: That's -- I like this man.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. President, were you -- were you aware of Elon Musk's regular drug use?
TRUMP: No, I wasn't. I think he's fantastic. I think Elon is a fantastic guy. And--
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you troubled by these reports?
TRUMP: I don't think -- I'm not troubled by anything with Elon. I think he's fantastic. Did a great job. And, you know, DOGE continues. And by the time it's finished, we'll have numbers that'll knock your socks off. It's going to be -- he did a fantastic job. And he didn't need it. He didn't need to do it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How do you replace him?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Steel deal final? Has it been finalized?
TRUMP: --replaced -- he really isn't.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is this deal to be finalized by Nippon (ph)?
TRUMP: No, I have to approve the final deal.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well how will the U.S. Steel--
TRUMP: Well, you'll see, I mean. But I have to approve the final deal with Nippon. And we haven't seen that final deal yet. But they've made a very big commitment, and it's a very big investment. It's the largest investment in the history of the State of Pennsylvania, in any deal, not just steel, and it's thousands of steelworkers, and not only there, all throughout the country.
[21:15:00]
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. President, do you support the Lindsey Graham- Blumenthal bill that would levy sanctions on Russia?
TRUMP: I don't know. I have to see it. I'll take a look at it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you confident that your proposal, for a ceasefire in Gaza, that was just submitted this week, will get approved by Hamas?
TRUMP: I think that want to -- they want to get out of that mess. They're in a big mess. I think they want to get out of it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can we anticipate any trade deals next week at all? And does this deal, today with Nippon, sort of overall help your talks with Japan?
TRUMP: Well, Japan very much wants to make a trade deal. I don't think this has much to do with it. But certainly, it certainly won't hurt, because we have a very good relationship with Japan. But as you know, Japan is in there, right now, negotiating, as we speak, and they want to very much make a deal.
I think the deal I'm most proud of is the fact that we're dealing with India, we're dealing with Pakistan, and we were able to stop potentially a nuclear war through trade, as opposed through bullets. You know, normally, they do it through bullets. We do it through trade. So, I'm very proud of that.
Nobody talks about it, but we had a very nasty potential war going on between Pakistan and India. And now, if you look, they are doing fine. That was getting very bad. That was getting very nasty. They're both nuclear powers.
The Pakistan representatives are coming in next week.
And India, as you know, we're very close to making a deal with India.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Have you decided on China--
TRUMP: And I wouldn't have any interest in making a deal with either, if they were going to be at war with each other. I would not, and I let them know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your message -- the G7 here in two weeks. You're going to Canada. Mark Carney, up there, obviously has a different view of the world than you do--
TRUMP: He does--
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: --when it comes to energy, clearly. What's your message going to be at G7, here in a couple weeks?
TRUMP: Well, it's in Canada. And he's a very nice guy, by the way, Mark Carney, I think he's really a very nice person. And we've had some good talks. We'll see what happens. We'll see what happens.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you aware of the reports that Susie Wiles' phone has been breached and somebody's been impersonating her?
TRUMP: I've heard that. Yes, I've heard.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you concerned about that? You know anything about the investigation--
TRUMP: Well, she's an -- she's an amazing woman. She can handle it. But I've heard that they -- they breached her phones, or they tried to impersonate her.
Nobody can impersonate Susie. Nobody. There's only -- there's only one Susan.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. President--
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. President--
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: --what's your message to Chinese college students in the United States that want to stay in the United States, don't want their visa revoked?
TRUMP: Well, they're going to be OK. It's going to work out fine. We just want to check out the individual students. We have -- and that's true with all colleges.
And I don't know why Harvard's not giving us the list. There's something going on, because Harvard's not giving us the list. They ought to give us a list, and get themselves out of trouble. But they don't want to give the list because they have names on there that supposedly are quite bad. We want people that can love our country, and take care of our country, and cherish our country. And for some reason, Harvard doesn't want to give us a list.
I would suggest you all, get out of the rain now. Goodbye, everybody. Have a good time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.
TRUMP: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.
COLLINS: President Trump gaggling with reporters after getting off Air Force One, returning from a speech in Pennsylvania.
A few headlines there and a few topics of today that he was asked about, including that report in The New York Times that I just mentioned, that Elon Musk himself largely dismissed today and didn't really address. The President himself told reporters he was not aware of the extensive drug use by Elon Musk, but said he was not troubled by it. Said that the DOGE work will continue.
And also, when asked about a proposed sanctions package on Russia by two senators from across the aisle, a Democrat and one Republican, the President said he'd have to take a look at it before he could weigh in there.
I want to bring back in Jeff Mason from Reuters, who's here, been listening to all of that.
Jeff Mason, also the President was asked about Susie Wiles, his Chief of Staff. The Wall Street Journal reported this story, last night, from our friend, Josh Dawsey, that people -- someone had been impersonating her, and there was a law enforcement investigation underway, because calls are being made to senators, to governors, to high profile executives of companies, essentially pretending to be the Chief of Staff.
MASON: That's right. He didn't -- he said that he had heard about that report. So which -- I don't know if we can take that as a confirmation. It probably is a confirmation. And then he just sort of moved that on by saying, No one can impersonate Susie Wiles.
But that is certainly a big -- it's a big story, and it's a big threat, because Susie Wiles, of course, would have multiple phone numbers and messages in her phone, that foreign actors and others would be very interested to get their hands on, when it's hacked.
The other thing I would highlight that I imagine you're going to talk about more on your show later, is the -- is the U.S. Steel comment that he made. The one thing that hung over the rally, here in Pennsylvania today, which I was covering earlier, was, is the deal actually done?
COLLINS: Yes.
[21:20:00]
MASON: He was celebrating it, and talking about it. And he was just asked about that, and he confirmed that it's not done, that he hasn't signed it yet, and that he still has to approve it. He has until Thursday of next week, according to our reporting, to do so. So, there's still a question mark over that entire -- that entire thing,
COLLINS: Yes, the details of it and how it would work are quite murky. We'll see what happens before Thursday.
Jeff Mason, thanks for sticking around for us on that breaking news, in this hour, as we're monitoring the President's remarks.
Up next here. The President went on a tirade, last night, against a judge that he himself appointed in his first term. What our new reporting shows about how that judge was selected. We'll tell you, right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:25:00]
COLLINS: I have new reporting tonight on the Trump-nominated judge, who ruled, earlier this week, against the President's tariffs and the way that he implemented them, after the President railed against him, in a lengthy post, on Truth Social, last night, saying that he was recommended to him by the Federalist Society.
What I've learned is that he was actually not recommended to the President, and to the White House, by the Federalist Society, in President Trump's first term.
Instead, a source who worked inside the administration, at that time, tells me that members of the President's trade team, back then, had actually advocated for Judge Timothy Reif. He had been a political appointee, and at the time, he had served as a senior adviser under then-U.S. Trade Representative, Robert Lighthizer, before President Trump nominated him to the federal Trade court.
Here to weigh in on all of this, is Marc Short, who was Chief of Staff to Vice President Mike Pence.
And it's great to have you here, Marc.
This is something I heard from one of your colleagues that you worked with. In terms of just the President had gone off in this remarkable tirade, last night. We were talking about it at the top of the show. And I had texted a few people, Is this actually accurate? Is this how this came to be?
Not only did they point out that Trump, not only nominated and then renominated Judge Thomas (ph) Reif. They said that it was not something that came out of the Federalist Society. Instead, it was from the Trade Office, essentially.
MARC SHORT, FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF TO VP MIKE PENCE: Kaitlan, that's right.
I think, first off, let's say that there are few people, I think, contributed more to President Trump's success, in the first term, who were not in the administration. Nobody contributed more than Leonard Leo and the team of the Federalist Society. Not only is, I think, the transformation of the court, one of President Trump's enduring legacies, but that happened because of the Federalist Society.
But even back in 2016, Kaitlan, you might recall that in the general election, there were still a lot of conservatives who were worried about whether or not Trump would govern as a conservative. And so, he came forth a list of 21 potential nominees for that open Supreme Court vacancy seat that was put together by Leonard Leo and the Federalist Society.
Now, to the decision, this week, of the Court of International Trade. You're right. There are three -- it was a unanimous decision that the President was upset about. A Reagan appointee. An Obama appointee. And a Trump appointee, named Timothy Reif, who actually had served as a general counsel on the Ways and Means Committee, under both Republicans and Democrats. And it was U.S. Trade Representative, Bob Lighthizer, who had recommended him, because he shared Bernie Sanders' and Donald Trump's protectionist view on trade.
And so, when you look at this actual decision, it was a Reagan, Obama, and a Trump appointee, who shared his vision about trade, who all ruled unanimously that the President doesn't have the authority, under IEEPA, for these broad-based, broad tariffs across the globe. And so, I think it's a pretty clear decision from the court that that is not an executive branch power.
COLLINS: Well, and with Leonard Leo, he may not be a well-known name to people watching at home, but he certainly is in Washington. And the way he did, go to great lengths, in order to shape not just the Supreme Court justices that Trump picked, but also just the entire judiciary, which you know, as Pence and Trump argue, is one of their biggest accomplishments in their first term. Trump today, called him -- or Trump, last night, called him a sleazebag--
SHORT: Yes.
COLLINS: --and speculated that he hates America, which I thought -- just thought was quite remarkable, given that.
SHORT: Well, I mean, look, I think that you go through many of the landmark decision, in the last couple of years, of overturning Roe v. Wade, decisions affirming the Second Amendment, Chevron deference, all these things were possible because of Leonard, and his team, and the way that they reshaped the courts.
And so, again, I think it is a tremendous legacy of President Trump's that he should embrace, as opposed to eschewing one more element of the conservative movement that was part of his first team, as he veers more and more down this populist path.
But, Kaitlan, you hear many in the administration argue for this unitary executive power, and there is a lot of originalists that I think have favored the President, in many rulings, including these Federalist appointees that sided with him on immunity privileges, after the 2020 election. And I think the notion is that the executive branch has one executive in charge of it.
But the corollary of that, Kaitlan, is that where the Constitution says specifically that taxing the American people belongs to the legislative branch, that is a legislative function, not an executive one.
And so, I think that these same judges, not just on this Court of International Trade, but as they appeal it to the appellate court and Supreme Court, are likely to interpret it the same way. Even if they afford him great authority as executive branch, the Constitution is very clear, the power of taxing belongs to legislative branch.
COLLINS: Yes, it was paused this week. We'll see what they rule on the merits.
Marc Short, thank you for joining, and for clearing that up for us.
SHORT: Thanks, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: Up next. NBA legend, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is my source. His take on Harvard, and the battle that they are under -- is underway with the administration, and what he had to say, this week, here, to the graduating class.
[21:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, the Trump administration is escalating its fight against Harvard, just a day after a judge said that she's going to block President Trump's efforts to ban the university from enrolling international students.
The State Department has now ordered all U.S. embassies and consulates to, quote, "Immediately begin additional vetting" for anyone who is seeking a visa to travel to Harvard for, quote, "Any purpose." That includes screening social media activity.
As the class of 2025 was celebrating their graduation, this week, they heard from the NBA legend, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, who commended Harvard for standing up to the President and these efforts, and also drew parallels to Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., and the 1956 bombing of his home by segregationists.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAREEM ABDUL-JABBAR, NBA LEGEND & PRESIDENTIAL MEDAL OF FREEDOM RECIPIENT: What affected me most about Dr. King's reaction to his home being bombed was his comment. Remember that if anything happens to me, there will be others to take my place.
[21:35:00]
One of the reasons I'm so pleased to be here today is because I view Harvard University as being, among the others, willing to take Dr. King's place.
After seeing so many cowering billionaires, media moguls, law firms, politicians and other universities bend their knee, to an administration that is systematically strip-mining the U.S. Constitution, it is inspiring to me, to see Harvard University take a stand for freedom.
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: And Kareem Abdul-Jabbar joins me now. His new book, "We All Want to Change the World" is out now.
And it's so great to have you here, sir.
And to listen to that speech, what stood out to me is we do live in a time, where some people might be hesitant to say things like what you said, publicly. And I wonder why, for you, it was important to say what you said.
ABDUL-JABBAR: Well, it was important for me, Kaitlan, because I have always been concerned with that issue. In my lifetime, I've had to deal with people who want to take us back to segregation, at various times, or had various insults just because of the color of my skin. And it's always bothered me. I've always wanted -- always wanted, to do something about it. And speaking out the right way, at the right time, I think, is the way to do it.
COLLINS: What do you believe is at stake when you -- when you look at the fight that's happening with Harvard. And it seems like, every day, it's a new stand from the administration to try to punish them, basically, for not complying to what they would like to see Harvard do.
ABDUL-JABBAR: Well, I don't think Harvard can give up control of their university. They were -- it was demanded of them that they let others determine what was taught, who taught it, the students that could come in, just basically handing over control the university to other people. And that's not what they're here for.
They're here to teach people how to think. And their research in various -- on various subjects, illnesses, have really changed the world and saved many lives. So, that was done on their timeclock, and in the way that they wanted to do it. And I just, I don't see any point in trying to tell them what to do.
COLLINS: Some people might look at this and say, This is Harvard. It's one of the most exclusive universities in the world. They have a massive endowment that the President has been pointing out, over $50 billion. If you hear that from someone, and they think, This fight is not my fight, it doesn't involve me? I wonder what you would say to that person.
ABDUL-JABBAR: Well, I would say to that person that it might be Harvard in the -- as the target now. But maybe next -- in the next couple of months, you might be the end -- might end up being the target. And that's what it's all about. It's about free speech. I think Harvard has to protect their ability to do things the way they want to do it.
COLLINS: You have a new book that I mentioned. It takes a look at protest movements that changed the United States, when there have been movements before.
And in the speech to the graduates, you said that, and I'm quoting you now, When it comes to fighting injustice, the war is never won. It is a never-ending battle that must be fought over and over.
I wonder, not just for students and graduates, but how you would translate that to people living their everyday lives.
ABDUL-JABBAR: Well, I think that for everybody, there are issues that are persistent, things that they have to deal with on a persistent basis. And whatever that might be, that ends up being what they have to do. They have to constantly deal with it. For Black Americans, that has been segregation and the aftermath of it. There are things that we still have to deal with.
COLLINS: Yes. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, it's an honor to have you on the show. Thank you for taking the time to come on in, and speak with me tonight.
ABDUL-JABBAR: It's been great talking to you, Kaitlan. Take care.
COLLINS: Thank you so much.
[21:40:00]
Up next here on THE SOURCE. We have new details on a story that we brought you first here, last night. What we are learning about this investigation into the man who was allegedly set up, for writing a letter, threatening President Trump, and the DHS Secretary put him on blast. That man's attorney is my source tonight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: CNN has new reporting tonight about the Department of Homeland Security's stunning blunder, in which the Secretary, Kristi Noem, touted the arrest of a migrant, who was accused of threatening to assassinate President Trump, in a handwritten letter. Obviously, an incredibly serious allegation.
But now we know, not only do investigators believe that letter was likely written by somebody else. It turns out, investigators suspected that the undocumented migrant, Ramon Morales-Reyes, had actually been set up days before the Secretary publicized this claim.
[21:45:00]
Records obtained by CNN, from the Milwaukee Police, said that the man in question here gave ICE officers a handwritten note, when he had been arrested with his family's information. Police records state that note, quote, "Depicted completely different handwriting than what is on the letters and envelopes" about President Trump.
The Morales-Reyes family is now calling on the Department of Homeland Security to issue a correction, saying, they are now receiving threats because of what Secretary Noem posted.
My source tonight is the Morales-Reyes' attorney, Kime Abduli.
And it's great to have you here. And thank you so much.
Can you just tell us what happened, when you first saw this letter, from Secretary Noem, claiming that your client had sent this letter, and also publicizing his arrest?
KIME ABDULI, ATTORNEY FOR RAMON MORALES-REYES, ATTORNEY, ABDULI IMMIGRATION LAW, LLC: Kaitlan, thank you for having me.
Yes, so, I mean, the first time I saw the letter, it was very clear to me that it was definitely not Ramon's writing by any means. Immediately, just off the fact that it was written in English was a dead giveaway to me that it could not have been him, because Mr. Morales-Reyes does not speak English, so there's no way that he could have written it. And there were several things about it that to me just did not add up as something that he would have written.
COLLINS: And have you heard anything from the Department of Homeland Security, since all of this happened?
ABDULI: No, not about that, not about the letter, or about the -- about their position, about him having made these threats, no.
COLLINS: And so, do you have any idea what happens next here for your client? Because I know you have acknowledged that he is undocumented. That is obviously what was at the crux of why the Secretary announced this. What happens next here?
ABDULI: So, at this point, he does have a court hearing coming up for the removal proceedings that have been initiated against him, and that is a separate matter that he's now going to be having to deal with. Aside from that, he also has applications pending with USCIS. So, we're waiting on decisions on those as well.
How this note, this letter, might impact that is kind of up in the air. I guess, we're waiting to get some finality on the investigation as to who may have actually written it, to try to clear Mr. Ramon Reyales -- Reyes, excuse me, of any involvement in this.
COLLINS: It is your understanding that a man who once attacked your client may be the person who sent that letter?
ABDULI: That is the theory, right now. Again, that has not been confirmed. But that is kind of the leading theory, at this point, from -- what we've heard from investigators on this.
COLLINS: OK. Please keep us updated. Kime Abduli, great to have you here. And keep us updated on what happens with your client. Thank you.
And our CNN Senior Legal Analyst, Elie Honig, is here.
And Elie, obviously just listening to what she said there. She's saying that her client doesn't speak English. And so, when she saw the letter, she did not believe it was his.
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER STATE & FEDERAL PROSECUTOR, FORMER ASST. U.S. ATTORNEY, SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK: New fact, and a very obvious fact, in favor of this individual.
It seems clear, given all the available evidence, that this individual did not write the letter. I mean, take, on top of the fact that he doesn't read English, there is compelling evidence that it was written by this other individual who allegedly attacked Mr. Morales-Reyes.
So DHS, look, they got out ahead on their skis here. They announced, very boldly, it's the first thing on their website, if you log on, Man Who Threatened President -- you know, Illegal Immigrant Who -- Arrested --President Detained by DHS. They ought to do the right thing. They ought to figure this out. And if they conclude he did not write this, they need to fix that.
Now, that said, he does have other issues. He does appear to be in the country illegally. He may have a criminal record. So, he may well still be subject to deportation.
COLLINS: And that obviously is still something worth, worth following and tracking here. But what I was struck by, in the new reporting, this is new from last night, when we were talking about the story, from Whitney Wild, is that the investigators believed this days before the Secretary announced it. And yet she still, I don't know if it's unclear if she knew, she still announced it.
HONIG: It's incredibly sloppy. It makes it look like the Secretary was just looking to make an announcement that would make a splash.
And by the way, we will know for sure if they have the proof of this or not, because whoever did write this letter, that's absolutely a criminal threat against the President. So if it was this individual, he should be charged by DOJ. And if he doesn't get charged by DOJ, then we're going to know they don't have the goods.
But the fact that they should have known days in advance makes it really inexcusable.
COLLINS: I want to ask you about another legal case we've been following here in New York. That is the trial of Sean Diddy Combs.
HONIG: Right.
COLLINS: Obviously, everyone's been watching it.
President Trump was asked about it, inside the Oval Office, today. Because he previously had cited knowing Sean Combs, years ago. And he was asked, Would you ever consider pardoning him? And this was the President's answer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I haven't seen him. I haven't spoken to him in years. He used to really like me a lot. But I think when I ran for politics, he -- sort of that relationship busted up, from what I read.
[21:50:00]
So, I don't know, I would certainly look at the facts. If I think somebody was mistreated, whether they like me or don't like me, it wouldn't have any impact.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: We don't know that he needs a pardon. Nothing has been -- he hasn't been found guilty yet.
HONIG: Right.
COLLINS: The trial's still playing out.
But what did you make about that answer?
HONIG: Well, I mean, heck, why not? Right? He's been on a pardon spree all week.
I figured out this week, there are three categories of people who Donald Trump likes to give pardons to. Number one, political supporters. Number two, his personal friends. And number three, Cause Celebs, celebrities whose pardon would tick off liberals. And if we look at Sean Combs, he definitely fits into category two. He used to know Trump. He definitely fits into category three. So, it absolutely would not shock me.
And by the way, there's a misconception out there, sometimes, that a person cannot be pardoned until after they've been convicted or sentenced. That's not the case. If Donald Trump wants to pardon Sean Combs tonight, he can do it. I don't think he ought to do it. But it would not shock me if eventually.
And look, how many times has Donald Trump said, Maybe I'm thinking about it, we're looking into it, there's questions? Where does that always lead, in the past?
COLLINS: Yes, it was notable that he didn't rule it out. But also, he doesn't like to put himself in a box always. HONIG: Yes.
COLLINS: But in terms of your three categories. I mean, maybe it would anger liberals. But, I mean, I don't see why conservatives would necessarily stick up for Sean Combs, given the testimony we've heard from multiple witnesses who have corroborated it against him.
HONIG: Yes, I think you're right. I think this one would probably tick off more than just liberals. I think this would tick off anyone who's really following the trial.
Because whether he's convicted or not of the specific crimes he's charged with, this is a horrible individual. His lawyer stood up and said, in opening, Sean Combs, they said, He's a bad guy. He's a domestic abuser. You're not going to like him. But then they argued he didn't commit the charged federal crime.
So yes, I guess he's expanding that third bucket a bit.
COLLINS: Do we know how much longer we expect the trial to go on?
HONIG: So they said, originally, prosecutors said, Eight weeks. But let me give you a prosecutor's trick. You always overestimate the length. Because if you underestimate it, if you tell the jury, eight weeks, and you go into week nine and 10? The jury is going to hate you as the prosecutor. So, they said, eight weeks. I think we're now finished week three. So, I would guess another two, three weeks.
COLLINS: All right, Elie Honig, we'll see what happens--
HONIG: Yes.
COLLINS: --and if a pardon does ensue here.
HONIG: All right.
COLLINS: Up next. It was the purchase of a lifetime for Taylor Swift. Her loyal fan base can listen to the original recordings now, her first six albums, guilt-free, which she revealed, though, that fans aren't getting -- is also getting just as much attention tonight. We'll explain what happened, next.
[21:55:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, Taylor Swift is now the proud owner of her entire music catalog, after buying back the rights to her first six albums.
It's been a long time coming. Back in 2019, the music mogul Scooter Braun's company purchased what are known as master recordings of those Swift albums, which she said totally blindsided her. A year after that, a private equity firm bought the recordings for more than $300 million. So, for all this time, Taylor Swift had no ownership of the songs from those six albums. That's why, over the last few years, you've seen her instead, rerecording her version, Taylor's versions, for four of them.
In a letter to fans today, Taylor Swift wrote, quote, All of the music I've ever made... now belongs... to me. And all of my music videos, all the concert films, the album art, the photography, the unreleased songs, the memories, the magic, the madness, every single era. My entire life's work.
My source tonight is Bryan West, who is the Taylor Swift Reporter for the USA Today Network.
And it's great to have you here, Bryan, especially on such a huge day, not only for Taylor Swift herself, but also for her fans. And just, how long it took to get to this moment.
BRYAN WEST, TAYLOR SWIFT REPORTER, USA TODAY NETWORK: Hi, Kaitlan.
It's definitely a day that fans will remember. If you look online, right now, they're celebrating May 30th as Taypendance (ph) Day, or Independence Tay, Taylor Swift Independence Day. They are very excited that she now owns not just the music, the masters, but all of the original, concert films, the album art, the photography from all of these different eras.
COLLINS: Yes, and obviously, owning music, we've seen how this become -- has become a thing in recent years. Bieber -- Justin Bieber sold his catalog for $200 million. Bob Dylan's for $300 million. Bruce Springsteen, $500 million.
Do we know -- do we have any idea, the realm, the neighborhood of how much she paid to get her music back?
WEST: Right now, it's being reported by Billboard magazine that she paid $360 million, which we do know that when Ithaca Holdings, that Scooter Braun's company sold it to Shamrock Capital, that was around $300 million. So, it is pretty close to the original price tag from back in 2019. They released a statement today saying, they're absolutely thrilled for Taylor Swift being able to now own all of her music. And so, it is interesting that number that's being reported.
COLLINS: Yes. What else stands out to just about this moment in terms of, I think a lot of people remember when this happened, and how she came out at the time, and was very clear about how caught off guard, and upset she was, about what had happened to her. She felt that she had been basically wronged here.
WEST: And this was the time that Kelly Clarkson tweeted out. She sent out the message being like, Hey, Taylor, you should just rerecord your music. She later told Time Magazine, that's like kind of redoing your homework.
But this is ultimately what led to The Eras Tour. It was allowing new fans coming into the fold to reexperience her rereleases, these eras that original fans had grown up and loved about Taylor Swift. And so, when Kelly Clarkson pitched that, she started recording them. She got through four Eras. And what we learned today is that her last two debut, her first country album, she has that completely done, so she could release that at any time. And then there's Reputation, which she said, that was the hardest one to struggle because she didn't know if she could make a rerecord better. So she said she didn't even get more than a quarter of the way through that rerelease.
[22:00:00]
COLLINS: Yes. I know a lot of fans had been expecting that to come out. Now we'll see what happens there. It's been a fascinating saga. So good for her.
Bryan West, and thank you for your reporting on this. It's great to have you. And for a lot of our audience who may not know that there was a Taylor Swift reporter that even existed, it's great to have you, and your reporting here tonight.
WEST: Thank you so much, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: Thank you all for joining us.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" is up next.
