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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Suspect Charged In Colorado Antisemitic Terrorist Attack; Ukraine Strikes Deep Inside Russia In Sophisticated Drone Attack; Ernst Issues Mock Apology After Dismissing Medicaid Worries. Aired 9- 10p ET
Aired June 02, 2025 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KARA SCANNELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And they were just worried about the future issues they could have, once they no longer worked for him.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: All right. Kara Scannell, thanks so much. Appreciate it.
Before we go, quick programming note. George Clooney stars in a special live broadcast of Broadway's Good Night, and Good Luck. You can catch the Tony-nominated play, Saturday night, 07:00 p.m. Eastern, here, live on CNN, and streaming on CNN.com.
That's it for us. The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST: Tonight. Hate crime charges for the man accused of using a makeshift flamethrower, Molotov cocktails, and a disguise, in an attack that the Feds say he planned for over a year.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
Tonight, there's a lot of new information coming in this hour, regarding what is now very clearly an antisemitic attack, unleashed at an outdoor mall, in Boulder, Colorado, yesterday.
At least a dozen people were injured, including a Holocaust survivor. And two people remain hospitalized tonight, from this fiery nightmare that unfolded.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRIAN H., WITNESS: There was one woman, who was an elderly woman, who had her hair charred.
BROOKE COFFMAN, WITNESS: It was two older ladies just like, kind of rolling around a little bit. They were in their underwear because they had, like, stripped their pants, obviously. And yes, I was just like, How can I help? And they had, like, really bad burns all up on their legs.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: You can hear how shaken the eyewitnesses were, after this man that you see here, Mohamed Sabry Soliman, used a makeshift flamethrower and Molotov cocktails, to target a weekly gathering in support of the hostages who were being held in Gaza.
There is no secret about the motive here. The suspect is heard in videos, obtained by CNN, yelling, quote, Palestine is free, End Zionists, and, quote, They are killers.
The initial calls into 9-1-1, drive home, the chaos of the moment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There is a male with a blowtorch setting people on fire.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There is at least one party rolling around in flames.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We need medical for multiple burns on the courthouse lawns.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: The suspect stood in court today, and was formally charged, as you can see here, with 16 counts of attempted murder. That's in addition to a federal hate crime charge. And when police officers caught him, they say that he had 16 unlit Molotov cocktails with him.
In an interview with police, after that arrest, authorities say that Soliman, quote, Stated that he wanted to kill all Zionist people, and wished they were all dead, and that he had planned this attack for a year. He also said that he had no remorse, essentially, that he was prepared to do it again.
The entire time that this happened, and as that attack was being planned, he was in the country, illegally, according to the Department of Homeland Security, where officials said that he was an Egyptian national, whose tourist visa, that he had, expired more than two years ago.
At the White House today, the press secretary highlighted that aspect of the story.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: We know that this individual, this terrorist, was allowed into this country by the previous administration, was foolishly given a tourism visa and then was illegally allowed to stay. These individuals are going to be deported, and we're not going to tolerate such violence in our country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Despite the planning that the suspect says himself went into this attack, both local and federal law enforcement said today that Soliman was not on their radar before he struck. My lead source tonight was having dinner at the Pearl Street Mall, in Boulder, when this attack happened. And Alex Osante (ph) joins me now.
And thank you, sir, for being here. I just -- I don't think anyone can even imagine what the last 24 hours were like. Can you just describe to us the scene, and where you were, when this attack started?
ALEX OSANTE (ph), WITNESS: Hi, Kaitlan.
Well, this was an absolutely chaotic events of any measure that I've ever seen in my life. Even being around the world to 87 countries, this was on vacation, this was still the craziest event I've ever seen.
I was having lunch right across the street from where this happened. And as soon as -- as soon as I heard people screaming, and crying, and yelling, and a Molotov cocktail blowing up, we saw everybody in panic and crying, and the place was just in disarray and confusion.
COLLINS: Could you tell initially what was going on, that who this person was targeting? Was that obvious in the moment? Or was it just essentially chaotic?
OSANTE (ph): Well, I'm glad you asked that question, Kaitlan.
[21:05:00]
Because, for the first few minutes, many of us, even us who were helping out with water, and turning off the fire off of -- off the people who were burning from head to toe, and who were severely burned and wounded and laying on the ground, we didn't know who -- many of us did not know who started this or caused this.
And it was just a lot of confusion. We were asking, Are there bullets flying? Are there people with machine guns? Are there grenades? What exactly is happening, and who's doing it?
COLLINS: And then what happened? And, I mean, could you see the suspect? What was he doing, from your view?
OSANTE (ph): OK, yes. So, as soon as -- I was front row and center to this horrible, tragic incident. And as soon as I heard the commotion, when I was having lunch across the street, I turned around, and there was a -- I didn't know what to do, either. I wanted to run in there, and help out, and take the perpetrators down, but we didn't know who they were, and if they had guns or not. So, I started recording immediately.
And then while we tried to figure out what was happening, and then after the whole situation, we're looking back at the video that I had, I can see that this man was the perpetrator, without the shirt on, and he threw the Molotov cocktail, and he really made a big mistake, because he burned himself. He burned himself.
COLLINS: Wow. OSANTE (ph): And he had -- he took off his bulletproof vest, which looked like a bulletproof vest, and a shirt, and he removed that, and then he was shirtless. And what this man was doing was just horrible, in every way.
COLLINS: So you can see in the video that you took, which maybe you didn't realize it in the moment, but when you look back at that, you can see in the video, where he is still throwing Molotov cocktails, and catches himself on fire, at one point?
OSANTE (ph): That's correct. Yes, I have a long 10-minute video of the whole incident. And this man threw the Molotov cocktail. He came out of the bushes and the trees, and he threw a cocktail at a lady and ignited himself on fire.
COLLINS: And in that video, can you see when he's being arrested by the police? What -- I mean, was he resisting? What did that look like?
OSANTE (ph): Yes, that's right. So, after he threw the Molotov cocktail, he went back and got two more cocktails, and he was just standing there, looking to the left to the right, ready to throw the cocktails, and there were maybe 50 -- 50 people surrounding him, wanting to take him down. But at the same time, we weren't sure if he was working alone, or if he had maybe 10 other people with him, who were ready to shoot anybody who came close to him.
And yes, we saw the policemen come -- the policemen come. The first one, he came by himself, and he asked the person to lay down on the ground. And the person did. He didn't resist. He laid down on the ground. The police officers jumped on him. And then about 20 to 30 seconds later, another police officer, the second police officer, came in with a huge shotgun, and that's when he was captured.
COLLINS: Alex Osante (ph)--
OSANTE (ph): I have all that on video, yes.
COLLINS: --I mean, I'm -- and I'm sure the authorities are incredibly grateful that you have that video that they can use. It's just a horrific thing to have to witness. But thank you for coming on and describing it for us tonight. I do appreciate your time.
OSANTE (ph): You're welcome.
And if I could say one thing, I was very thankful to make this video for the police department, so that they can have evidence of any criminal activity. And the beautiful thing that we saw here was people from all different types of backgrounds, and ethnicities, coming together to find a solution, and alleviate the solution, and bring it back to normalcy.
COLLINS: Yes. And I'm sure they're grateful for you as well. Thank you so much, Alex (ph).
And for more on this investigation, as we are learning everything tonight, and the details about what is happening now. CNN's Chief National Security Analyst, Jim Sciutto, is here with me.
Also, the former head of the D.C. and Philadelphia police departments, Chief Charles Ramsey.
And the former NYPD Deputy Commissioner of Intelligence and Counterterrorism, our John Miller is here.
And John, I want to start with you, because we have seen a lot of developments, this evening and this afternoon, in terms of where this investigation stands. What is the latest that we know, not just about the suspect and the attack, but also how the victims are doing this evening?
JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, we saw the number of victims rise from eight to 12, as other people who had not been transported by ambulance, or taken to the hospital, came forward, and said they suffered burns. These are the less serious injuries. But for each one of those, there's additional counts and charges that can go with that, Kaitlan.
[21:10:00]
Two of the victims remain in the hospital. One of them, a senior citizen, was reported to have burns, over 65 percent of her body. So, that can be a very medically-challenging case, given how difficult it is to treat burns.
As far as the suspect goes, you know we now have -- we have a 45-year- old, but not our usual profile of a suspect. Father of five, drives for a car service, waited for his daughter to graduate college before carrying out this attack. Tried to buy a gun, back in 2024, but couldn't, because of his immigration status being in question at that time. He's planned this for over a year. So, what we're seeing is not the usual loser to lying (ph) loner, but somebody who was established, who had a family background, and thought about this for a long time.
COLLINS: Yes.
Well, and Jim on what Jim -- what John Miller just mentioned there, in terms of the weapon of choice here, Molotov cocktails. I mean, you've reported, across the world, on these being used in different countries. But what John was referencing there is the suspect allegedly was denied the purchase of a gun.
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Yes.
COLLINS: He's not a U.S. citizen. He's not a legal citizen. He had taken classes on how to shoot a gun. But then, according to law enforcement, turned to making Molotov cocktails--
SCIUTTO: Yes.
COLLINS: --to carry out this attack.
SCIUTTO: It's basically his plan B, right? And it shows you the danger and difficulty of a lone-wolf actor here, because he was able to get the ingredients for these weapons. I mean, they're household items, right? Gasoline, a weed sprayer. You could get the recipe for a Molotov cocktail, or the makeshift blowtorch that he had, online. That's easy. You don't need help to do that. He did his planning. He said, on secret -- in secret, on his own.
And the difficulty for law enforcement with a lone-wolf actor like this is that there's no contact point, then, at least to what we know, right now, with some sort of extremist group, whether domestic or overseas.
And that's your point, to interrupt or to catch them, whether they're communicating with someone, a group, either radicalized or inspired by some sort of group, or who gave them planning support, you don't have that. So, there's no way to detect in advance, and that's one of the difficulties.
Now you imagine, had he been able to get a gun, which sadly, is fairly easy in this -- in this country, whether legally or illegally. In this case, he couldn't get it legally. You could imagine, he would have had much more deadly effect.
COLLINS: And Chief Ramsey, does it surprise you when you hear that he wasn't on the radar of law enforcement, whether it be local or federal officials? They both were asked that today, during the press conference, and said that he wasn't on anything that they had been tracking.
CHARLES RAMSEY, FORMER WASHINGTON, D.C. POLICE CHIEF, FORMER PHILADELPHIA POLICE COMMISSIONER, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: No, it really doesn't. I mean, he had an expired tourist visa. Unless he committed a crime of some sort, he wouldn't necessarily automatically fall on the radar of either the FBI, or local police, or what have you. So, I'm not really surprised at that.
And it also shows just the difficulty it is in tracking individuals. I mean, there are millions of people in this country, in some manner, shape or form, on tourist visas, or work permits, or whatever, and you can't track them all.
But certainly, had he committed a crime, or done anything that would have caused any suspicion, that would be different. But apparently, he was pretty low-key until he decided to act.
COLLINS: Well, and on that front, you're shaking your head, yes, Jim, just on the visa part. This has obviously been what the White House has been highlighting. We're going to talk about that in a moment. But we were talking about the 9/11 hijackers, several of them who were in -- who were here on expired visas.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
COLLINS: And in terms of whether or not that gets the attention of -- I mean, it's not what people typically think of, I think.
SCIUTTO: Well, to Chief Ramsey's point, there are millions of folks in that category, sadly. So the difficulty's, it's almost impossible to have the resources to check every visa overstay in this country, in a number of categories, whether that's tourist visas or student visas, there are a lot of those as well, work visas.
So, you have a giant pool here. Law enforcement is always looking for ways to narrow that pool. If they had some sort of indication, criminal record, past ties or current ties with terror groups abroad, or extremist groups at home. They didn't have any of those points here.
Now, we are in the midst of a change in the way the country deals with this, right? I mean, the Trump administration is going after visa overstayers to a degree we did not in the past.
COLLINS: Yes.
SCIUTTO: And they are significantly raising the penalties if you overstay your visa. For instance, you can't reapply for three or 10 years. There are criminal penalties, et cetera. But from a numbers perspective, and pure numbers game, it's an enormous task.
COLLINS: Yes, and John, on the charges here, can I ask you about what we're hearing out of the FBI, from the Director, and the Deputy Director, Kash Patel and Dan Bongino, almost immediately saying this is a terrorist attack.
So far, no specific terrorism charges have been filed. Do you think we should be expecting that here?
MILLER: I think it's going to be likely that you're going to see them go beyond the federal charge of Title 18 Section 249, which is the hate crime charge.
[21:15:00]
But this is a nuance of federal law, which is, let's get this straight. This is a terrorist attack. Now, legally speaking, in the federal law, unless you can prove a connection to an FTO, a Foreign Terrorist Organization, al Qaeda, ISIS, Al-Shabaab, something designated by the State Department as such, then you can't charge terrorism under federal law, because we don't have a domestic terrorism statute, what they have to do when there's a terrorist case, where they can't prove that connection to one of those organizations.
And they're early here. They have a year's worth of computer messages, emails, text messages, Google searches to go through, to see what kind of propaganda he was looking at. But the alternative to that is to use regular federal charges. In this case, the hate crime statute, which says, if you're targeting someone for violence because of their religion, nationality or race, creed or color, that's a hate crime. That's a 10-year count. He is charged with it twice.
COLLINS: Yes.
MILLER: The state counts go up to 400 years. But that's a complaint. I expect to see an indictment where you'll see additional -- high likelihood of additional federal charges.
COLLINS: OK. We'll see if that happens.
John Miller. Jim Sciutto. Chief Ramsey. Thank you all for being here tonight.
And also, as we cover this story tonight, we have Rahm Emanuel here. He is the former Mayor of Chicago, and former Ambassador to Japan, who has also been the target of antisemitism himself, I should note.
And Ambassador, it's good to have your experience here.
Because I think this attack is horrific enough on its own. But when you put it in the context of the two Israeli embassy employees who were just murdered, here in Washington, the arson attack that happened on the Pennsylvania governor's home, on the first night of Passover. I mean, the pattern that you're seeing taking shape here is incredibly disturbing.
RAHM EMANUEL, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO JAPAN, FORMER CHICAGO MAYOR, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL & GLOBAL AFFAIRS COMMENTATOR: It is. And then you can go back to the attack of the Tree of Life synagogue.
So, I think what's important is you've always had antisemitism. That's not new. What is new is that you have a permission slip to act on it, where people are said, being told, Resist at all costs and all means. And you have an individual like this that takes that, or the individual, as you noted obliquely, but referred to the person in Washington who killed two Israeli embassy employees, has had -- used to be marching out in front of my house. So there is a -- there's antisemitism, and then there's the violence and action that's associated with it.
And I think that the good news is you had citizens here, you had law enforcement, and you had an action taken. But we have to, as a country, deal with, there are voices now that used to always say, Oh, it's anti -- we're anti-Zionists, we're not antisemites, and we don't believe in antisemitism.
But there's a permission slip that is acting on it, and we have to be honest about it, stop saying, Our thoughts and prayers, and confront the fact that people are being given a way to act on this antisemitism, in the name of quote-unquote, anti-Zionism, and it's a permission slip to acts out -- spray-painting like it happened on our fence, to what is a horrific event, both last week and this week.
COLLINS: Yes, I mean, I was looking -- you had posted on online -- earlier, you said, We need to have the hard conversation with difficult questions about why, why now and why these people.
EMANUEL: Yes.
COLLINS: If you're watching this tonight, what does that conversation look like to you?
EMANUEL: Look, a long time ago, as I've said this before, I said it in 92nd Street Y, Kaitlan, we used to have, you know, people would chant, The Jews will not replace us, and then a car drives in and kills people in an act of violence. Then you had what happened at the Tree of Life. And then you have these incidents.
And the actual truth is, when we call it out, a lot of voices, you're saying it's anti-Zionism, but it's actually mutating and evolving into antisemitism, and that's how you're getting the goods through customs. And then people, like in this situation, like last week, like at the Tree of Life, act on that antisemitism.
And what's -- now you have had -- I've gone back and talked to the ADL, and gone through the statistics. In the last -- five of the last six years, you have set a new record for antisemitic acts. Jews are 3 percent of the population, but over two-thirds of the acts of hate crimes associated with religion.
And what, as somebody has studied this, what is -- steps out when you look at Jewish history, usually, the rise in antisemitism is associated with bad financial economic situations. Like, you could have seen that in the economic crisis of the Great Recession of 2008- 2009. It didn't happen. It is happening now. And it's being enjoined by the far-left and the far-right. And that's what that conversation is about.
[21:20:00]
Is this -- this is not about anti-Zionism. This is pure and simple antisemitism. And voices are then telling people, It's OK to act when the when using language like, Resist at all causes, and everything else.
Now, I'll probably get a lot of hate mail for saying this. But we're going to have to have a hard conversation with elements that have said, it is permissible to do something in any way you want to, to resist, quote-unquote, Zionism. And that comes from both the far-left and the far-right, and it's got to be end, and we're going to have to say it in uncomfortable ways to people that, quote-unquote, Associate with parties.
No. Anti-Zionism, the way you're expressing it, carries a tone and a permission slip for antisemitism, and people to do violent acts on it. And that's on the--
COLLINS: Ambassador Rahm Emanuel--
EMANUEL: --that's on the -- that's on -- that's on the religious side. There's a racial component to this, and there's other components.
And one other thing I want to say. While the White House has talked about his breaking the immigration law. Do not lose fact that the gun control law worked. If you're an immigrant, you can't buy a gun. So, part of the legal system did work here, and that should be noted. Not just to politicize the situation about immigrants or people overstaying their visas.
COLLINS: Ambassador Rahm Emanuel, thank you for your time tonight. EMANUEL: Thank you.
COLLINS: Up next. Speaking of what the White House and the President have been saying about this. We have more on that, with our deeply- sourced White House insiders, right after a quick break.
[21:25:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: President Trump weighed in on social media, following that horrific attack in Boulder, saying that these kind of attacks will not be tolerated in the United States. But also, using the moment, to go after his predecessor, blaming President Biden for allowing the suspect here to come into the United States.
Now, the suspect is an Egyptian national. He did actually come into the United States, legally, on a tourist visa. But according to the Department of Homeland Security, after that visa expired, he stayed in the United States, illegally, only later applying for asylum.
That isn't something that the President, and his Department of Homeland Security spokesperson has been highlighting, on social media, following that attack, with Trump once again using his predecessor's record on immigration, to try to go after him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Back here in the newsroom tonight, my White House insiders are joining me.
CNN's Priscilla Alvarez.
Reuters' Jeff Mason.
And Sabrina Singh, who is the former Deputy Pentagon press secretary.
And Priscilla, obviously, this has been something that we have seen the White House focusing on, ever since the identity of the suspect was revealed yesterday. What else are you hearing from people at the Department of Homeland Security, about his status, how long he was in the country, and what we know about his time here?
PRISCILLA ALVAREZ, CNN REPORTER: Yes, there are really two key points that his immigration history boils down to. The first is how he got here. That was through the B-2 visa, which could be used for tourism, and that was in August of 2022. Now, when you come on that visa, you can only stay for six months. That's generally the limit.
And we learned from the Department of Homeland Security that he had later applied for asylum. Over the course of his time, with his pending asylum application, he also got a work permit. That is very typical. That work permit, however, expired in March of this year. So, if you look at his entire immigration history, he was actually in the United States longer legally than he was illegally. We don't know, however, what his application is right now. I have asked the Department of Homeland Security. That is, it's still pending, for example, has it already been denied, given the circumstances of today? That is something we're still waiting to get an answer to.
But we do know that as of March of this year, he no longer had papers to be in the United States. Therefore, he was in the U.S., illegally.
COLLINS: How common is that? How many people -- I mean, I think we focus, and you do with your reporting, understandably, on the border, and what's happening there, people who cross illegally. How many people generally are in the United States that do overstay a visa? I imagine a lot.
ALVAREZ: A lot. And this has really put a spotlight on the various overstayers that are here in the United States. According to a think tank, 40 percent of the undocumented population in the United States are actually people who have come here on a visa. They've entered the United States, legally, then overstayed that visa, because there are limits as to how long you can be in the United States, on each of these.
I will tell you however, that what he did, coming on a visa, then applying for asylum? That's actually quite common. There are people, who come from all over the world on visas, and then apply for asylum here. So, the occurrence here was, it was pretty standard with what we've seen with other visa overstayers.
COLLINS: You worked under President Biden, in several different roles, in his administration. What is your response, when you hear President Trump, and people in his White House, criticizing Biden, and saying, This happened on his watch?
SABRINA SINGH, FORMER DEPUTY PENTAGON PRESS SECRETARY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR & GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, I think what Priscilla points out is that, this individual came here legally. Yes, it was under the previous administration. But his status, and his legal status, it expired in March 2025, of this year.
I think there's a lot of conversations that should be had of people overstaying their visas. And, at the end of the day, these people should follow the law. Under the previous administration, under the one that we served -- that I served, immigration, border crossings were going down.
But of course, we've seen this president use it as a talking point, and something that he certainly ran his election on, that they're going to keep pushing this message. And so, it's not a surprise that we're seeing Donald Trump coming out swinging so hard on this.
[21:30:00]
But again, I mean taking the politics out of it, you have 12 people that were injured horrifically, in an attack like this. We should really see the rhetoric on this violence come down, and hopefully have more security at events like this, so people can peacefully, whether it's organized protests, whatever it is, do so in a peaceful manner, but with a security apparatus around them as well.
COLLINS: Yes. I mean, and obviously, certainly not how the Trump White House sees it, as you know very well, Jeff. I mean, they have said, This is why Trump won, in part, that this was part of what helped him get into the White House.
What are you hearing from people at the White House tonight, in terms of we've seen what the administration has been doing on going after and tamping down border crossings, and bringing them down to low levels. But what about the people who are -- who have overstayed visas? Is that going to become a new target for them?
JEFF MASON, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, REUTERS: Well, I think, in general, this just solidifies their view that they're doing the right thing, with regard to immigration, broadly, and with regard to a crackdown on the border, with regard to this latest issue that you're raising too about overstayers.
Very important to say, awful what happened. It's unacceptable. But that aside, this White House is not going to jettison the politics. They're going to use this as an opportunity to say, blame his predecessor, blame President Biden, and focus on what they're doing, because it's been a winning issue for President Trump as a candidate, and as somebody who's serving as the Commander-in-Chief.
COLLINS: Yes. And different visas, tourist visas, obviously last a different periods.
ALVAREZ: Right.
COLLINS: Do we know how long an Egyptian visa would -- tourist visa would last for an Egyptian national?
ALVAREZ: Well, a B-2 visa for this would be, again, about six months, and he would have had to -- but what's interesting here is he applied for asylum during that period.
So, this is really the state of our immigration system, is it gets very patchy, very quickly. You can come on one visa, then apply for something else, fall out of status here, but still have this other paper over there. And this is where it gets so complicated. And this is why White House border czar, Tom Homan, has repeatedly said, he plans to widen the aperture of the people that they are arresting in this country.
COLLINS: Yes.
Great to have you all here. Thank you for that reporting.
Up next here. As we follow this story in Washington tonight that's getting a lot of interest, is keeping an eye on Ukraine after they just launched what is probably the most ambitious and sophisticated attack, we've seen, against Russia. Questions tonight about how Ukraine pulled it off, and also what it means for this war, as we're waiting to see what President Trump will do.
Fareed Zakaria is my source tonight.
[21:35:00]
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COLLINS: Round two of peace talks between Russia and Ukraine ended today without a ceasefire or any real major breakthrough, as the two sides met in Turkey for barely over an hour.
And all of that coming, just 24 hours after Ukraine pulled off its most daring and sophisticated assault on Russia that we've seen so far, with Ukrainian officials quietly and meticulously planning, what they called, Operation Spiderweb, for a year and a half, smuggling these drones deep into Russia, hiding them inside mobile wooden sheds, where they sat undetected and untouched, until yesterday.
At the moment of the attack, the roofs of those mobile facilities were opened remotely, and the drones swarmed out to strike Russian military sites across the country. In all, Ukraine says it hit a third of Moscow's military bombers, across four different airfields. The farthest, all the way in Eastern Siberia, about 2,800 miles from Ukraine's border.
And my source tonight is CNN's Fareed Zakaria, the host of Fareed Zakaria GPS.
And it's so great to have you here, Fareed.
Because I know, in response to this, we've seen Russian bloggers essentially saying that this is their Pearl Harbor. I mean, a lot of people have noted that's not an apt comparison. It was not an unprovoked attack. But impact-wise, what impact does this have on Russia, in your view, whether that's practically speaking, or even psychologically?
FAREED ZAKARIA, CNN HOST, FAREED ZAKARIA GPS: Oh, it's devastating. These are crown jewels of the Russian military. These are very prized parts of their air force. This is, you know, this is one of their claims to fame, in terms of being a global superpower.
And they had positioned these deliberately, what they thought was, out of the range of Ukraine, so far away from Ukraine, they thought it wasn't possible that the Ukrainians would be able to get to them. So, these are 3,000 miles away from Ukraine. And they were able to get drones. They were able to be devastatingly accurate. Remember, the Russians use all kinds of jamming devices. So, these drones got through those jamming devices, and they penetrated. I think this is -- this is a huge loss for Russia.
Remember, morale is very important in war. And for -- what this does to Ukrainian morale is a huge boost. And what it does to Russian morale is it reminds them they are fighting an enemy that is fighting for its national independence, its freedom. The Ukrainians are going to keep fighting. COLLINS: I thought it was notable, we heard from President Zelenskyy today. He just posted online, and he said this, Ukraine is making it clear: we are not going to surrender, and we will not accept any ultimatums. But we do not want war. We do not want to show our strength. We are forced to, because the enemy refuses to stop.
That came as there was the second round of talks, between Russia and Ukraine, in Istanbul today. It didn't seem to last very long. Nothing major came out of it.
What does an attack like this mean for Ukraine's bargaining, when it comes to what these talks look like, in your view?
[21:40:00]
ZAKARIA: What the Ukrainians are showing is that they have extraordinary resolve. They are extraordinarily innovative. They are willing to take risks. They are, you know, they're not going to simply roll over and be forced to surrender.
But the problem, Kaitlan is, at the end of the day, they're a country one-tenth the size of Russia, economically, one-fourth the size of Russia in population. And what has kept them going was that the leading -- the leader of the Free World, was supporting them, that the President of the United States would routinely say, We are going to be with you to the end. That's a huge morale boost.
What gave them enormous strength, obviously, was the money and arms that were flowing from the United States. And let's remember. All American aid, virtually all American aid, comes back to the United States in the form of payments for -- basically, we would give the Ukrainians money, and they would use it to buy American arms.
So, there was a kind of extraordinary synergy there that was working, and has fought the Russians to a standstill, has probably inflicted close to a million casualties on the Russians. But all of that is in question. That's the problem.
Ukrainians have all the bravery and innovation you'd want. But they need the support of the leading -- of the leader of the Free World. And right now, I think it's fair to say that they don't have it.
COLLINS: Yes, Trump has said repeatedly, Zelenskyy has no cards, that essentially, sometimes, he's surprised and shocked by how Zelenskyy acts, because he says he doesn't have a strong hand at the table.
I think some people may say, Well, did Zelenskyy prove him wrong to a degree here.
ZAKARIA: Absolutely.
Kaitlan, you know what? Trump seems obsessed with the idea that he's going to do deals with Putin, he's going to do deals with Russia. That's why he wants to make a deal with Russia. That's why he's offered them unilateral concession after concession. And yet, the truth is, Russia is a declining, decrepit, dysfunctional country. It's been turned into essentially a militarized police state that its entire economy is geared towards war.
Ukraine is showing us what the future of war is likely to be. It's going to be drones, it's going to be missiles, it's going to be smart technology embedded in these. It is what would -- if we were really trying to figure out where the cards were? The cards are, right now, in terms of innovation, in terms of technology, in terms of the future of warfare. They're with Ukraine. They're with Poland.
And that synergy of helping Ukraine, creating a kind of a base of operations in Poland, that would be much, much better for America, for our technological knowhow, for our ability to fight asymmetrically in the future. Than trying to find some, you know, some fossil fuel deal that you could make with Vladimir Putin as that -- as that Russian empire dwindles down to nothing.
COLLINS: Yes. And also, here in Washington, as this is all happening, we're seeing support among Senate Republicans, and even House Republicans pick up for more Russia's -- Russian sanctions. We'll see if President Trump acts on that.
Fareed, though, what I want to know is, what are you going to be watching for in terms of how Putin responds to this attack?
ZAKARIA: Well, he's been trying.
The mistake that people make is they don't -- they don't realize the accomplishment Ukraine has achieved. It has fought the Russians to a standstill.
They're trying everything. They've tried to take Kyiv. They've tried to attack Kyiv. They've tried to assassinate Zelenskyy. They've tried to take Pokrovsk, one of these towns in the east, for a year now. And they -- and the Ukrainians have held their lines. Despite the fact that the Americans, at one point, stopped providing intelligence assistance to the Ukrainians.
So, I think that the story about Ukraine is really that what's extraordinary is what we would -- you know, that nothing is happening, that the Russian line is not advancing. Despite 10 times larger economy, four times larger country, Putin has decided this is everything for him.
And why? Because the Ukrainians are being innovative. Because they're using the best technology. They're fighting asymmetrically. They figure -- you know, think about what they did here. They used these relatively cheap drones, to destroy planes that must cost 50, a 100 times as much. This is the future of asymmetrical warfare. This is what Ukrainians are already doing. So, I think that's the real story that we forget sometimes.
COLLINS: Yes, great point.
Fareed Zakaria, it's great to have your perspective on all of this. Thank you for joining tonight.
ZAKARIA: Always a pleasure, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: Up next here in Washington. Republican senator, Joni Ernst, has a surprising response, after she caught criticism, after she told constituents, We're all going to die, when asked about potential cuts to Medicaid and food stamps. Hear this response, next.
[21:45:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Republican senator, Joni Ernst, is drawing some backlash tonight, after sarcastically dismissing criticism, over the way she responded, when a constituent at a town hall shouted out, last week, that people could die if there are cuts to Medicaid.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JONI ERNST (R-IA): When you are arguing about illegals that are receiving Medicaid benefits--
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That's not true.
ERNST: --1.4 million -- 1.4 -- they're not -- they are not eligible. So, they will be coming off. So, we--
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: People will die.
ERNST: People are not--
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: People will die.
ERNST: Well, we all are going to die.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: In the face of public outcry, over that comment there, Senator Ernst doubled down on her comments with this video.
[21:50:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ERNST: I made an incorrect assumption that everyone in the auditorium understood that, yes, we are all going to perish from this earth. So, I apologize. And I'm really, really glad that I did not have to bring up the subject of the tooth fairy as well.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My next source tonight is the Democratic senator, Maria Cantwell of Washington.
It's great to have you here, Senator. A lot of people in Senator Ernst's state are covered by Medicaid, same with your State of Washington as well. What do you make of how the Senator handled this?
SEN. MARIA CANTWELL (D-WA): Well, I don't really think it's a strange response, the beginning response and the follow-up response. I'm not sure that the follow-up isn't stranger than the first response.
But as I've traveled our state, to talk about this, and definitely worked very hard against the block granting of Medicaid too, because it was another sneak attack to just take money out of the health care system that would have left less people with health coverage.
And so, I think we've seen in our state, people are saying, Yes, what do they expect? They just want us to die? Literally, a woman said that, in Spokane, to us. And so, they are concerned about it. They are on the, really, the economic fringe of just making it, and Medicaid helps them make it, and provides that health insurance. And as they get older, they really are concerned, is it going to be there for them in their old age?
COLLINS: So you heard concerns about this, when you were just home for recess?
CANTWELL: I could get you the video of a woman who showed up at our meetings, who said something very similar. But this -- yes, they've said recently, just this last week, last Thursday, and also, months and months. Because, people who already are in hard-to-serve areas, maybe a rural community, or are at a population where they know they need health care, are concerned that if they lose it, they don't have many other choices.
COLLINS: Well, what we've heard from a lot of Republicans, your Republican colleagues, who have sat in this chair have said, Democrats are fearmongering. We're not cutting Medicaid. No one's going to lose benefits if they are not able-bodied, working, able adults, that this is just reforms to get fraud out of Medicaid.
What would you say to that?
CANTWELL: That is just flat-out wrong, and they know it.
And when they tried to block grant Medicaid, as I mentioned, it was a similar thing. They thought the details wouldn't matter. But thank God, three Republican senators joined us and, very famous vote, and we stopped them from block granting Medicaid. In that instance. So, we've had letters from Republican county commissioners, Republican state legislators, health care officials, saying, Don't make these cuts.
So, this isn't a partisan issue. This is people who understand that in fragile populations, and in hard-to-serve areas, that this kind of cut can be devastating to a community.
COLLINS: So, what do you say, though? Because President Trump has been phoning Republican senators, who have also had questions about this, including Senator Josh Hawley of Missouri, who's been raising many questions about cuts to Medicaid, and critical of those changes, saying that it will hurt Missouri, it will hurt hospitals.
But he said today that he Just had a great talk with President Trump about the Big, Beautiful Bill. That's what passed the House and is now going to the Senate. He said again, NO MEDICAID BENEFIT CUTS.
CANTWELL: So, I don't--
COLLINS: Should people feel reassured by that?
CANTWELL: I don't know if -- when you were commenting earlier that Senator Hawley was on the record about the House bill, I don't know. But to me, those are cuts, and I hope that he thinks they're cuts, and that he's not just going to get into the same semantics.
When Speaker Johnson says, Oh well, we want able-bodied people? You don't get a $770 billion cut out of Medicaid by saying that some able- bodied people just have to come up to work for some work hours. You know--
COLLINS: You're saying the fraud that they say is there does not exist to the scale that they say it does?
CANTWELL: Oh, absolutely not. There's so much in the system of red tape that it's hard to make that happen.
But what is clear is that hospitals, they think in certain parts of our state, that four or five hospitals could close, that they that the--
COLLINS: In Washington?
CANTWELL: Well, when you think about Medicaid, there's 1.9 million people that literally have access to Medicaid in our state. And when you take them out of the system, you're really just going to increase uncompensated care showing up in the emergency room. And if you're a hospital that's already on the edge, how are you going to provide that care without those people being compensated for care? So.
COLLINS: Do you think this bill makes it to the President's desk by July 4th? I mean, it sounds like even Republicans aren't happy with what they got from the House, and want to make big changes.
[21:55:00]
CANTWELL: Well, somebody's going to get stuck without a seat here. Now, some crazy music's playing, that's for sure, right? And so, I don't know. I mean, are senators thinking they're going to stick the House, and they're just going to send them something, and they're going to make them vote with it? Or are these people who are saying that they aren't for Medicaid cuts, going to vote against Medicaid cuts? I mean, let's see.
But America, who is dependent on a more affordable health insurance, delivered by this system, implemented by even Mike Pence in the State of Indiana, now, all of a sudden, is looking at a big fat cut, for no reason other than to give a tax break to corporations. COLLINS: Senator Maria Cantwell, we'll see what happens. You have a very busy summer ahead of you, on Capitol Hill. Thank you for your time tonight.
CANTWELL: Thank you. And glad you guys are covering tariffs, and we should at some point -- you know, these two court decisions on tariffs, really, really important--
COLLINS: Yes.
CANTWELL: --because I think they showed that there was really no there, there, in the administration's approach.
COLLINS: Yes, and they're--
CANTWELL: And it really is hurting a lot of small businesses.
COLLINS: They're vowing to put them in place one way or another. We'll see what happens there.
Thank you, Senator, for your time.
Up next. We're seeing remarkable pictures coming out of Italy tonight, as Mount Etna has erupted suddenly while tourists were there. What we're hearing from officials. You can see them running, as you watch this video.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:00:00]
COLLINS: An extraordinary scene playing out in Italy today, where tourists and hikers were sent running for their lives, after Mount Etna suddenly erupted, sending huge clouds of gas, rock, and hot ash, high into the sky. Italian officials say everyone made it off the volcano safely.
And we'll continue to check this. Thanks so much for joining us.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" is up next.
