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The Source with Kaitlan Collins

Trump Maintains Iran Strikes Caused Total Obliteration; Trump Says U.S. & Iran To Meet, Nuclear Deal Not "Necessary"; Mamdani Poised To Win NYC Dem Primary As Cuomo Concedes. Aired 9-10p ET

Aired June 25, 2025 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[21:00:00]

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: --The Iranians are saying that a bakery was damaged, a beauty salon, and two residential units. They say several people were killed here. They're not saying who the people were, who were killed. But they also say that one person is still in the hospital, and many people were also injured here as well.

You can tell, the blast must have been pretty powerful. We're actually in the building next door now, and you can see there's significant damage here as well. In fact, someone's chocolates are still here on this coffee table.

And if we go over here, into the room next door, this seems to be some sort of office and maybe bedroom, there's still someone's sleeping area here. It's unclear whether anybody was laying there. But if someone was laying there, it must have been a terrifying experience.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: That was Fred Pleitgen in Tehran, Iran.

That's it for us. The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Tonight, President Trump is back in Washington, after an abbreviated stop at the NATO Summit, here in the Netherlands, as he secured a big win in his longtime quest to get allies to spend more on their defense.

He also faced multiple questions about an intelligence report, questioning the impact of the U.S. strikes on Iran.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: You should really say how great our soldiers and our warriors are.

COLLINS: I think everyone appreciates our soldiers and our warriors. I do have two questions for you, Mr. President. You just cited Israeli intelligence on these attacks. Earlier, you said, U.S. intelligence was inconclusive. Are you relying on Israeli intelligence for your assessment--

TRUMP: No. No.

COLLINS: --of the impact of the strikes?

TRUMP: No, this is also -- Iran made the statement. And it's also, if you read the document that was given, that Pete can talk about if you'd like, the document said it could be very severe damage. But they didn't take that. They said it could be limited or it could be very severe. They really didn't know, other than to say it could be limited or it could be very, very severe. And you didn't choose to put that because it was very early after.

Since then, we've collected additional intelligence. We've also spoken to people, have seen the site, and the site -- the site is obliterated. And we think everything nuclear is down there. They didn't take it out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: The President was clearly upset, and pushing back on the early findings, from the Pentagon's intelligence arm, at one point, saying that he thought a preliminary assessment should not have been released at all.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: But you're not disputing, the report said what it said, even though it was initial.

TRUMP: The report said what it said, and it was fine. It was severe, they think, but they had no idea. They shouldn't have issued a report until they did.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: He's referencing a part of the report there that said that the damage could be moderate to severe, something the Secretary of Defense, Pete Hegseth, had mentioned earlier in the day. Obviously, he runs the Pentagon, which is where this report originated from, though he also cast doubt on it during that press conference today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETE HEGSETH, UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Iran's nuclear program is obliterated. And somebody somewhere is trying to leak something to say, Oh, with low confidence, we think maybe it's moderate.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: After that, we heard from two of the nation's top intelligence officials, releasing these new statements tonight, bolstering the President's arguments about the state of Iran's nuclear program.

With the Director of National Intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard, writing, quote, "New intelligence confirms" what the President of the United States "has stated numerous times: Iran's nuclear facilities have been destroyed."

CIA Director, John Ratcliffe, put out his own statement that reads, in part, A body of credible evidence indicates Iran's Nuclear Program has been severely damaged by the recent, targeted strikes.

Of course, as you can see there, one of the statement says, Destroyed. The other says, Severely damaged.

We'll hear again, tomorrow morning, from the Defense Secretary, Pete Hegseth, as he'll face questions again, with President Trump announcing as the two of them flew back tonight on Air Force One a, quote, "Major News Conference" at 08:00 a.m. Eastern at the Pentagon. Obviously, CNN will be carrying that live, tomorrow.

But tonight, my lead source was the Director of the Defense Intelligence Agency under President George H. W. Bush, and also the Director of National Intelligence under President Obama. James Clapper joins me now.

And it's great to have you here, sir.

Just given your extensive experience, in these two realms of exactly what we're talking about. What is your overall reaction to what we are hearing from the Trump administration, disputing these early findings from the DIA?

JAMES CLAPPER, FORMER DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE: Well, first, Kaitlan, thanks for having me.

I think, one point to be made is that the only reason we're having this discussion is because this report, which is highly classified, was leaked. And that, by the way, is a federal crime.

[21:05:00]

Now, typically, in all intelligence sequence of events, the first reports are preliminary. And I'm sure, this one, was caveated with some words about, This is subject to the acquisition of additional information that will cast light on the actual damage. And that seems to be what's happening.

I thought Director Ratcliffe's statement was helpful, and this is kind of the typical sequence.

I think, as a people, we are consumed with instant gratification. So, we want to know immediately, and we want to know completely. And those two terms in an intelligence context can be antithetical.

So, as time goes on, we're going to acquire more information, and we'll have greater fidelity on the actual extent of the damage. I'm personally convinced that profound damage was done to the totality of the Iranian nuclear enterprise. And I think we'll, as time evolves, we'll know more.

I do think there's -- it points out the danger in using absolutist terms, like obliterated, which implies that the total -- the total enterprise, nuclear enterprise in Iran, has been destroyed.

Well, it really hasn't. There are still scientists. There is probably equipment out there. We don't know if some things were stored away in hidden facilities or open in -- or out in plain sight that we haven't identified yet. So, there's a range of possibilities here that will affect the ultimate assessment, and we will learn more with greater fidelity as time goes on.

COLLINS: It's notable to hear you say you think that the damage here could be profound, after these U.S. strikes. Obviously, they were carrying massive bombs that they -- that they dropped on here.

Can I ask you about the Defense Intelligence Agency itself? Because we had heard from a Republican here, last night, who was saying, this isn't really the agency that will be able to best tell us what the extent of the damage is here. You obviously led the DIA, at one point. What would you have to say about their ability to get a good look at this initially?

CLAPPER: Well, DIA has extensive expertise in military intelligence topics. That's the reason it was created back in the 60s. And it also has decades-long expertise and experience with analyzing deep and buried, underground facility, hardened facilities, like Fordow. So what DIA does is important, and what they say is important.

And unfortunately, what we're missing here, in this leaked report, or reporting on the leaked report are, what I'm sure, are the qualifying caveats that were included in it. Most importantly, that this is a preliminary report, initial report, subject to change as we acquire more information, and that is already starting to happen.

There are other components in the intelligence community that will certainly contribute to this. Notably, CIA, for human intelligence, NSA, for signal intelligence, and there may be reflections of discussions among the Iranians about the damage incurred. I don't know that. Don't have access to it. But this is the sort of thing, typically that one would expect.

The DIA is one of four of the--

COLLINS: Yes.

CLAPPER: --national agencies that is embedded in DOD, and it plays an important role in support of war fighters.

COLLINS: When you look at how this has been handled, and just how angry the administration has been over this report becoming public. Even though, I think all the caveats have been that this is early and it is preliminary, and we could learn a lot more here. Do you worry about how that could impact future intelligence assessments that officials are putting together?

CLAPPER: Well, I do. Because here's a case, where it appears that the messenger is, DIA, is getting shot for conveying the message. And I'm sure they did the best they could with the information they had available.

I suppose, to cartoon this a little bit, the intelligence community is saying, Look, we're going to go away and gather all the information, do all the analysis. In a year from now, we'll let you know what we think happened.

Well, that clearly is not acceptable and is unsatisfactory to policymakers, whether they're in the executive or the legislative branch.

So, this is a typical pattern in intelligence, where you put out what you know, acknowledging that there's more yet to learn.

[21:10:00]

COLLINS: Yes. And Director Ratcliffe, to his credit, did put out a statement tonight, saying that they would commit to making as much possible as they can here, given the importance here.

Director Clapper, it is great to have your expertise on this. I really appreciate you joining me tonight. Thank you.

And I also want to bring in New York Times White House and National Security Correspondent, David Sanger, who is here with me.

And also, cyber and national security journalist, who wrote the upcoming book, "The Devil Reached Toward the Sky," Garrett Graff.

And David Sanger, it seems like what we are kind of seeing, 24 hours into this story, is today, at that press conference, you were seated right behind me, the Defense Secretary coming out with his strong defense. Now we're hearing from the Director of the CIA, the Director of the DNI, right now, in terms of this.

What do you make of how the administration is kind of coalescing beyond -- or behind what the President has been saying here?

DAVID SANGER, CNN POLITICAL & NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST, WHITE HOUSE & NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT, THE NEW YORK TIMES: Well, it's all strange, Kaitlan.

I mean, the original problem here, to my mind, is the President came out, before there was any battle damage assessment, within minutes of the end of this raid, and said there was total obliteration. He couldn't have known at that time, because they just didn't even have the preliminary numbers. But you know, it's President Trump, and he wanted to claim an early victory.

Then what happened is a report comes out that suggests it may not have been total obliteration, which is probably not a great way to describe this, as we just heard from Director Clapper. Just because there are so many facilities, and you don't know what you don't know about what the Iranians may have built elsewhere.

And now, everybody has got to get in line in the administration behind the total-obliteration line. So first, you heard it from Mr. Hegseth. You heard it some from the intelligence agencies, though they did not use the word, Obliteration. They were very careful to say severe damage. Severe damage is sort of where the inter -- where the International Atomic Energy Agency is coming out as well.

And if the President had simply said, at the beginning of this, We think we probably severely damaged this, we'll know in a few days or weeks or months, how long they've been set back? I think everybody would have -- would have understood that.

COLLINS: Yes. What were your other takeaways, just hearing from the President today, as he was talking about this at length?

SANGER: The best case for the President's position was made by Secretary of State, Rubio, is also, of course, sitting in as the National Security Advisor. And he said, basically, Look, even if you did not wipe out all of the uranium enrichment, the production of the fuel, what we did wipe out, and we can see from aboveground, is what's called a conversion facility, and a facility for making uranium metal, and both of them--

COLLINS: Helping make a nuclear bomb, basically.

SANGER: Right. And basically, that takes the fuel and converts it into a form that you can make a warhead or a bomb, right? And he made the good point. This is a huge bottleneck. And if the Iranians can't do this, they can't get to a bomb, no matter how much fuel they have. And that we can all see from the satellite photographs. And I think that's probably the strongest case the administration can make, based on the available evidence today.

COLLINS: Yes, that's a good point in terms of what Secretary Rubio had to say. We had really heard it in that level of detail.

And Garrett, in this press conference that's going to happen tomorrow at the Pentagon. We're told it's going to include members of the military. But we'll see, what this looks like.

I wonder how much you expect to be different than what we already heard from the Joint Chiefs Chairman, on Sunday, the morning after this attack, where he was much more cautious, and just saying, You know, it's too early to tell. We've got to wait to find out what the extent of this damage looks like.

GARRETT GRAFF, JOURNALIST & HISTORIAN: Yes. As David said, and as Director Clapper said, it is a totally reasonable position that it takes a couple of days to figure out the extent of the damage. I mean, I would believe it's taking the Iranians a couple of days to figure out the extent of the damage here.

And so, this, in some ways, is a totally normal intelligence process and military assessment process that is unfolding. It just happens to be against the backdrop of these completely inappropriate comments, by President Trump at the outset, that now the rest of the administration and the military feels like it needs to fall in line behind.

And that, to me, is the challenge of why it's such a problem that so many of these administration figures, from the White House on down, lie about so many little things, day to day. I mean, I'm thinking sort of all the way back to Sean Spicer's, This was the greatest inauguration crowd ever gathered in the history of the entire world.

COLLINS: Yes.

[21:15:00]

GRAFF: Sort of set the tone for how the Trump administration was going to work, in both administrations.

That you want these voices, like the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of State, the CIA Director, to be eminently trustworthy, so that we can take them at their word. And what we have seen straight through, since even the beginning of this administration, the second Trump administration, is the subtle corruption of intelligence to meet political ends.

Let's go back to the first week of John Ratcliffe's time as CIA Director, earlier this year, where all of a sudden, the CIA came out with a totally new assessment, that it believed that COVID resulted from a lab leak, which was a new assessment that the CIA made as soon as John Ratcliffe took office--

COLLINS: Yes.

GRAFF: --and made at a low confidence level, which is CIA and intelligence speak for sort of, Our lowest level of possible belief.

But this is, I think, the challenge that we now have in very high- tension moments, like now, where we can't actually, as a public, or as a media, take these leaders at their word.

COLLINS: Yes.

Garrett Graff. David Sanger. Great to have both of you, and your level of expertise, on this tonight.

Up next. We'll tell you what we're learning about that all-Senate briefing tomorrow. It's a classified one, on the strikes on Iran. Senators will get a chance to question the White House about this. What may and may not be shared, and who exactly is going to be there briefing them. A Democrat who sits on the Armed Services and Foreign Relations Committee will join me, next.

[21:20:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: Tonight, sources are telling CNN that the Trump administration is planning to limit its sharing of classified information with members of Congress, after CNN reported on a preliminary U.S. intelligence assessment, regarding the impact of the U.S. strikes on Iran.

This move is probably going to irk Democrats on Capitol Hill, given Democratic senators were already angry after an abruptly -- after their intelligence briefing was abruptly postponed, from the administration, on the rationale behind these strikes. That briefing has now been rescheduled, though, for tomorrow.

All 100 senators are expecting to hear from Defense Secretary, Pete Hegseth, Secretary of State, Marco Rubio, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Dan Caine, and CIA Director, John Ratcliffe.

My source tonight sits on the Armed Services and Foreign Relations Committees. Democratic senator, Tim Kaine of Virginia.

And it's great to have you here, Senator.

Because I think, we're still waiting to see who the final briefers are tomorrow. But I wonder who you are personally most looking forward, to getting answers from?

SEN. TIM KAINE (D-VA): General Caine. I think he's going to give us the straight story. I think some of the others who are coming to us are the talking-points people, who will try to spin us. But General Caine, I supported him to be the head of the Joint Chiefs, I think we will hear from him the real story.

And watching the mixed messages, and mixed intel, coming out of the White House, after this weekend strike, has been kind of dizzying.

COLLINS: And what's your reaction to this reporting CNN has tonight, that the administration might limit intelligence sharing, given that this report from the Defense Intelligence Agency leaked out?

KAINE: Well, Kaitlan, I mean, they're already limiting us. I mean, the tradition has been that if you're going to engage in a military action against a foreign country, the administration reaches out to what we call the Gang of Eight, and that is the Democratic and Republican leaders of the four key committees in both Houses, Appropriations, Armed Services, Intelligence and Foreign Relations.

This has always been the tradition. You reach out in advance and say, This is what we're going to do. Except, with President Trump in term two. On the attack on the Iranian facilities, over the weekend, Republicans were briefed and Democrats weren't. And so now apparently, President Trump has decided that war and bombing is partisan and not bipartisan. My colleagues, like Senator Warner--

COLLINS: Yes.

KAINE: --the lead Dem on the Intel Committee, and others, they were not briefed. And this is a real problem. So, when they're saying now they're going to pull back even more? This is not about pulling back against Democrats. It's about not informing the American public, and that's very troubling.

COLLINS: And the administration said, they called Senator Schumer beforehand. They tried to get in touch with Leader Jeffries, but he didn't answer the phone.

But just generally, on what we're seeing coming out of the intelligence on this matter, do you trust the intelligence that is coming from the U.S. intelligence community, right now, on these strikes?

KAINE: I trust the intel from the U.S. intelligence community, but not President Trump's characterization of it.

[21:25:00]

Remember, the U.S. got misled into a war in 2002-2003. We were told by the Bush administration that Iraq had this massive and growing program of weapons of mass destruction, and that was what led us into a war. And it turned out all to be lies. And so, we are -- we have seen this movie before.

And so now, you have the Trump administration. Some officials saying that the Iranians were nowhere near deciding to go toward development of a nuclear weapon. And others saying, We were on the verge of it. And now, in the aftermath of the attack, the U.S. bombing on Saturday, some are saying, We've destroyed the program, and others are saying, We set it back a few months.

The U.S. should not be lied into a war. I mean, if we've learned anything in the last 20 years, the U.S. should not be lied into a war. And this is going to be a major focus of the questions directed at Trump administration officials, tomorrow afternoon.

COLLINS: Well, and the President himself, before he was in office, was also critical about that intelligence.

I wonder, though, given what they're saying about the impact this had. Secretary Rubio made an interesting argument today, kind of going into more detail than we've heard any of the officials go into, which is he was saying the Iranian conversion facility, which is basically what's key to converting nuclear fuel into what's needed to produce a nuclear weapon, was destroyed as a result of this U.S. attack.

If that is true, would that bolster the case here that the Iranian nuclear potential here has been substantially reduced, as a result of these attacks?

KAINE: Kaitlan, that is, I mean, it is hard to say. You started your question with, if that is true. I think the American public wonders if that is true. I mean, who knows if that is true?

You've got, just listening to the Trump team, you've got very differing opinions. I mean, if you listen to the Israelis, they say, their bombing before the U.S. gotten in, has set the Iranian nuclear program back at least two or three years. You have others saying, it hadn't been set back enough.

My point, I've got a War Powers Resolution I'm asking the Senate to vote on, is OK, we're in a little bit of an interregnum with this ceasefire. I hope it holds. Can we at least have a discussion about this proposition? The U.S. should not send its sons and daughters into war, on the say-so of one person. The Constitution says it should be after a debate and vote in Congress.

President Trump today, posted on social media, a comical quote, bomb Iran video? Is this the way we treat war in this country now? Let's have a debate and vote in Congress, before we send our son and -- sons and daughters into possible war.

COLLINS: Senator Tim Kaine, we'll see what happens with your resolution. Thank you for joining us tonight, and appreciate your time.

KAINE: Absolutely. You bet.

COLLINS: Up next. You might have missed an interesting way that the head of NATO referred to President Trump, at the summit today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARK RUTTE, SECRETARY GENERAL, NATO: Daddy has to sometimes use strong language to stop them.

TRUMP: You have to use strong language, every once in a while, you have to use a certain word.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: You'll have to hear how the President responded to that, right after this.

[21:30:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: President Trump has returned to the White House tonight, following the NATO Summit, here in the Netherlands, that was nearly tailored to his liking.

It was brief. It focused on higher defense spending among the NATO members. And it also did not skip out on a level of flattery that was, frankly, hard to ignore. For example, to what we heard -- to give you an idea of what we heard today, listen to what the NATO Secretary General, Mark Rutte, and how he described the President's role in brokering a ceasefire between Israel and Iran.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: They're not going to be fighting each other. They've had it. They've had a big fight, like two kids in a school yard. You know? They fight like hell. You can't stop them. Let them fight for about two, three minutes, then it's easy to stop them.

RUTTE: And then Daddy has to sometimes use strong language to stop them.

TRUMP: You have to use strong language, every once in a while, you have to use a certain word.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: I was in the room for the NATO Secretary General's press conference, earlier today. The NATO chief was asked about his efforts to sweettalk Trump. He later said that the daddy-comment that he made there was referring to U.S. leadership, not Trump himself.

Here's how President Trump took it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: He called you Daddy earlier. Do you regard your NATO allies as kind of children?

TRUMP: No, he likes me. I think he likes me. If he doesn't, I'll let you know. I'll come back and I'll hit him hard. OK, no?

REPORTER: But do you -- do you regard--

TRUMP: He did -- he did it very affectionately. Daddy, you're my daddy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Joining me now is John Bolton, who served as President Trump's National Security Adviser in his first term.

[21:35:00]

Ambassador, what did you make of that moment, playing out here at the NATO Summit today?

JOHN BOLTON, FORMER TRUMP NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED NATIONS: Well, I was -- I was very glad to see it. Frankly, I think Mark Rutte has done a great job, jollying Trump along through this process.

I'm glad we got finished one more summit without Trump withdrawing from NATO. He actually said some good things about it. So, we're safe for another year, I hope. And that's a good example of how to manage Donald Trump successfully.

COLLINS: Yes, he came out today, and said that he actually had a different mindset on this, after leaving here, obviously, clearly making it to Trump's liking worked.

On the way here, though, he was asked about the pact of collective defense. And he said, quote, There are numerous definitions of Article 5.

I asked the Secretary General about that today, and this is what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Do you believe that Article 5 is subject to interpretation?

RUTTE: You know, Article 5 is absolutely clear. And at the same time, we have always said we will never go into details when exactly Article 5 will be triggered. And why not? Because we don't want to make our adversaries any wiser.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Now, of course, the question wasn't what would trigger it, but to, you know, the essential argument that other nations have said, Yes, we will defend a nation if they are attacked.

Trump said today he was all the way with NATO. But I wonder what you make of where he truly stands on this tonight.

BOLTON: Well, I don't think he's fundamentally changed. Look, I think U.S. withdrawal from NATO would be a catastrophe for us, and for our other NATO allies.

But I don't think it's far from Trump's mind. I think he's made that clear, for so many times, that -- even though today was a good day, and I'm very glad it was a good day, his understanding or lack of understanding, of how the Alliance works, has not changed. So, the effort to keep him happy has to continue for another three and a half years.

COLLINS: Yes, and of course, questions of whether or not the nations that are committing to 5 percent in defense spending will actually be able to fulfill that. We'll see what that looks like.

But during the press conference that the President held, right after the Secretary General, he was asked about what's been going on with Iran, and also talked about meeting with Iranians as soon as next week with negotiations.

This is what he told reporters.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: We're going to talk to them next week, with Iran. We may sign an agreement, I don't know. To me, I don't think it's that necessary. I mean, they had a war, they fought. Now they're going back to their world. I don't care if I have an agreement or not.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Do you think that there should be an agreement between the United States and Iran now?

BOLTON: I don't think there's any agreement that can be reached with Iran on the nuclear issue that we would find acceptable. There's no evidence whatever, despite what the President said, that the Iranian regime has given up on its 30-year-plus-long objective to get deliverable nuclear weapons.

They've suffered a terrible pounding, there's no doubt about that. But I think that their full intention is to recover from whatever damage they've suffered. They're happy that Trump declared an immediate truce. I thought that was a clear mistake. I think we'll come to regret it.

And the Iranians have, for decades, used these negotiations to string the West, string the United States out. Time is always on the side of the proliferator, and the Iranians would love to negotiate while they rebuild their program.

COLLINS: Do you believe when the President says that he doesn't think Iran moved any of that enriched uranium from those facilities that the United States struck on Saturday night? And given how precious that is to the Iranians, do you believe that that they did leave it in the facilities, knowing that the United States might attack them?

BOLTON: Well, I think they had 60-days warning because of the negotiation process that Trump launched in April. So, I believe they probably moved a fair amount, not just of the uranium itself, but sensitive machinery, the higher generation centrifuge models, the research they've been doing for the future, to put it in more secure locations. But that's very difficult to tell from what we know so far.

I think that they've suffered a severe setback, but only on the facilities we know. Even today, there are indications, maybe there are new facilities in Pickaxe Mountain, right next to Natanz, that have been developed. It just shows the Iranians have a very long view of this effort of theirs, to get nuclear weapons. It's been going on for a long time. They clearly plan on it going longer.

COLLINS: Yes, we'll see how they respond to this. Still, a lot of questions about the Supreme Leader himself.

Ambassador John Bolton, thank you for joining us tonight.

[21:40:00]

And up next here. That victory, last night, that we talked about, in New York, it was happening right as we were going off air. Zohran Mamdani has triggered an earthquake in Democratic politics, not just in New York, but also around the country.

My next source is a former senior adviser to President Barack Obama. What he has to say about this moment the Democrats are in.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[21:45:00]

COLLINS: Tonight, nearly 24 hours after Zohran Mamdani declared victory in New York City's Democratic mayoral primary, all sides of the Democratic Party are kind of getting their arms around what the 33-year-old Democratic socialist's historic upset means for them.

Along with derailing former New York Governor Andrew Cuomo's attempted political comeback, Mamdani may have also just set a new playbook for progressives, who are looking to win big in their races. Yet, the congratulations remained a bit tempered, among some of New York's top-elected Democrats.

New York Governor, Kathy Hochul, complimented Mamdani for building a formidable grassroots coalition.

House Minority Leader, Hakeem Jeffries, acknowledged that he ran a strong campaign.

The top Democrat in the Senate, Chuck Schumer, said, Impressive.

But as of now, none of those three have endorsed him yet in his race.

My source tonight is Dan Pfeiffer, who is the former senior adviser to President Obama, and also the co-host of "Pod Save America."

And it's great to have you here.

Because, I think, first, I just want to get your take on what you think Democrats can learn from his win, last night, or from his expected win, going forward?

DAN PFEIFFER, CO-HOST, POD SAVE AMERICA, FORMER OBAMA SENIOR ADVISER: Sure. Ever since the 2024 election, we've been having this conversation in the party. How can we communicate authentically? How can we excite young people? How can we break through in this broken media environment and get attention?

And here you have a candidate, who came from nowhere, who did all of those things, and upset the former Governor, the scion of a, you know, the most famous political dynasty in New York politics. And it's very impressive. And I think we should try to learn from it.

Because what -- you know, I think what Mamdani did, how he campaigned, is the way he centered cost of living and inequality, the two defining issues of this political moment, in his campaign, is something that every Democrat can learn from. Not just progressives, but more moderate Democrats, anyone running on the Democratic Party label, I think, can learn a lot from what he did. It's quite impressive.

COLLINS: Did it stand out to you that we didn't hear endorsements from people, like Hakeem Jeffries, and Chuck Schumer, and others today?

PFEIFFER: It did. It did stand out to me. And I think Democrats should embrace him. He is our -- he is the nominee, like he is -- he has done something in Democratic politics that's very special. He has created a movement in that city.

We should -- it is in all of our interests, as Democrats, both in New York and nationally, for him to succeed, to win this election and be a successful mayor. But I think everyone should be trying to help him as soon as possible.

COLLINS: And what do you want that to look like? I mean, in practicality. You're right. When it comes to -- we do look at numbers all the time that say Democratic voters aren't happy with their leadership. And the question is, what do they do about that? How do they seize on a moment, like this one? Or do you think this is just specific to New York City?

PFEIFFER: Well, look, New York City is going to be different from Maricopa County, Arizona, or Waukesha, Wisconsin, of course.

But I think the fundamentals of how you run a race, how you communicate, how Mamdani would do every interview available to him. He was always communicating with people, and he was doing it in his authentic self. He was campaigning without fear, without risk aversion. All of that are lessons for everyone there.

And I really think that we can get caught up on a lot of things in this. There's some of the specific policies are specific to cities, municipalities and mayoral races. But the idea that the American people want someone who will stand up for them, who will fight against powerful special interests, and fight against billionaires, to lower your costs, to make the economy more fair for you, is something that we should all be embracing.

I think that with -- there is a -- just a lot to learn from what he's doing. I hope everyone in the party looks at what he does, embraces him, and tries to help him succeed here. Keeping him -- there seems to me to be no benefit, only political downside, to keep him -- to keep Mamdani at arm's length now, after what he pulled off.

COLLINS: Yes, a lot of people have criticized proposals he ran on as unrealistic. When we had him on the show, last week, we talked about that. What would it look like to actually get some of those major proposals paid for, which obviously is a real question, and will be, if he does succeed going forward.

But we also heard from other Democrats, people like John Fetterman, who reacted to what happened last night, and he said, and I'm quoting the Senator now, I describe it as Christmas in July for the GOP.

What do you make of a comment like that?

PFEIFFER: Look, I think there -- I think, as Democrats, we should not live our lives, trying to reverse-engineer what Republicans are going to say about us. I mean, Donald Trump, he said on his crazy Truth Social (ph) about today, he calls Chuck Schumer, the Senator from Palestine. Like, we can't worry about that.

We should try to do what appeals to our voters, what can build the biggest, broadest coalition. And Republicans are going to launch their attacks. And I don't just -- like, follow Zohran Mamdani's example here, and campaign without fear.

[21:50:00]

COLLINS: Yes, I saw someone saying today, the fear about Republicans labeling Democrats as Democratic socialists. I mean, we already see that from a lot of Republicans, anyway, I would argue, even before his win. PFEIFFER: They called Joe Biden a socialist, right? They called Barack Obama a socialist. They're going to call everyone a socialist. And so it's just, if we live our -- live our lives in fear of what Donald Trump's going to say about us, we're never going to get out from underneath our desks.

COLLINS: So, for people who haven't been paying attention to this race. Mayor Eric Adams is going to be running as an Independent in the general election in November. I want you to listen to what he had to say about Mamdani today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR ERIC ADAMS (D-NYC, NY): He wants to raise 1 percent -- he wants to raise tax on 1 percent of New York's high income earners. As the mayor, you don't have the authority to do that. You know who has the authority to do that? An Assemblyman, which he is. He wants to do free buses. He could have done it as an assemblyman. He doesn't understand the power of government.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Governor Hochul has said she's not going to raise taxes, she doesn't have any interest in doing so, on wealthy New Yorkers. She wants them to stay in New York. But that has obviously been something we pressed Mamdani about that, last week.

But I wonder, what you make of what this looks like, in terms of what you do promise, and then what happens if you are successful, come November.

PFEIFFER: The core promise of the Mamdani campaign is that he will fight with every breath he has, for New Yorkers, to make their lives more fair, to lower their costs. And that's what he has to do. But that's going to look like in progress -- in practice, it's going to depend on the council and the politics of the moment. But what he had -- the promise he made is to fight.

COLLINS: Yes. We'll see what that looks like. It was -- it was quite a victory.

Dan Pfeiffer, great to have you on the show, and thanks for joining us tonight.

PFEIFFER: Good to see you.

COLLINS: Up next. We're going to take you behind-the-scenes of what you did not see at the NATO Summit today.

[21:55:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: Tonight, while the President is back in Washington, after an abbreviated NATO Summit. I want to show you what it was like, behind- the-scenes, today. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COLLINS: This is one of the most truncated NATO summits in recent memory.

The President is actually going to be here on the ground, in the Netherlands, for less than 24 hours. But he did already raise some questions, on the way here, when it comes to a key part of the NATO commitment, which is that Article 5 defense. If one nation is attacked, that the others will come to their defense.

When the President was asked if he is committed to Article 5, he said that different people have different definitions for what it means.

You'll go in with NATO press.

Do you believe that Article 5 is subject to interpretation?

RUTTE: You know, Article 5 is absolutely clear. And at the same time, we have always said we will never go into details when exactly Article 5 will be triggered. And why not? Because we don't want to make our adversaries any wiser.

COLLINS: And to follow up on Iran, sir, you just praised the U.S. strikes in Iran, saying that you do believe it will help prevent Iran from getting a nuclear weapon.

There have been questions about where that highly enriched uranium is, and if Iran moved it before the United States struck on Saturday night. Do you have concerns about that, and whether or not it poses a threat to NATO?

RUTTE: Look what happened last weekend. American B-2s. Nobody in the world is able to do this. Only the United States.

COLLINS: Thank you, sir.

TRUMP: You should really say how great our soldiers and our warriors are.

COLLINS: I think everyone appreciates our soldiers and our warriors.

I do have two questions for you, Mr. President. You just cited Israeli intelligence on these attacks. Earlier, you said, U.S. intelligence was inconclusive. Are you relying on Israeli intelligence for your assessment--

TRUMP: No. No.

COLLINS: --of the impact of the strikes?

TRUMP: No, this is also -- Iran made the statement. And it's also, if you read the document that was given, that Pete can talk about if you'd like, the document said it could be very severe damage. But they didn't take that. They said it could be limited or it could be very severe. They really didn't know, other than to say it could be limited or it could be very, very severe. And you didn't choose to put that because it was very early after.

Since then, we've collected additional intelligence. We've also spoken to people, have seen the site, and the site -- the site is obliterated. And we think everything nuclear is down there. They didn't take it out.

COLLINS: One thing that stands out, leaving this NATO Summit, is just how much it was tailored to President Trump. It was cut short, so he wouldn't have to spend an excess amount of time here. It's centered on his primary complaint about NATO, which is defense spending, something the President was touting, and also the Secretary General of NATO was talking about earlier.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COLLINS: And before we go tonight, three things you might have missed on this very busy Wednesday.

The Justice Department today sued all 15 federal judges, in Maryland, over an order that pauses any deportations under legal challenge for 48 hours. Legal experts say this is an unprecedented attack on judicial independence.

[22:00:00]

Also today, Secretary RFK Jr.'s new group of CDC vaccine advisers announced that they plan to study already-established vaccine guidelines. The committee is going to be looking into the effects of childhood and adolescent vaccine schedules, the hepatitis B vaccine dose given at birth, and the combination of measles, mumps and rubella and chicken pox vaccine. This was the group's first meeting, after Secretary RFK Jr. dismissed the previous panel of 17 experts, earlier this month.

Also, billionaire, Amazon founder, Jeff Bezos, and Lauren Sanchez are said to get married in Venice, this weekend. Locals have not exactly been thrilled about it. Venetians have been protesting the multimillion-dollar wedding that is bringing superyachts, private jets, and expected 200 guests to the city.

Thanks so much for joining us tonight.

"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" is up next.