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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
New Book Reveals Details About Private Trump-Putin Conversation; Texas Flood Survivor Recounts Escape From Rapidly Rising Waters; Trump Advisers Frustrated By Bondi's Handling Of Epstein Files. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired July 08, 2025 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR, AUTHOR, "THE PARDON": But Ketanji Brown Jackson, clearly, is trying to assert herself as the leader of the dissenters.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: I've got like 20 seconds left. But has there ever been a president in modern memory who had such a supportive supermajority in the court?
TOOBIN: Franklin Roosevelt got one, eventually. But he had eight appointments to the court. And he completely changed the court to his advantage.
But this court is shaping up to be a very pro-Trump court, and we're going to see a lot more decisions, like this, even over the summer, which is very rare for the Supreme Court. But there are--
COOPER: Yes.
TOOBIN: But the cases are coming very fast to the court right now.
COOPER: Jeff Toobin, thanks very much.
The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now. I'll see you, tomorrow.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST: Tonight, President Trump is losing his patience with Vladimir Putin, as we have new reporting, here at CNN, about who it was at the Pentagon that ordered that aid to Ukraine paused.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
At the White House tonight, a realization appears to be setting in, that Vladimir Putin is full of BS. Those are the President's words, not mine, as he unloaded on the Russian leader today, in a way that we haven't really seen before, frustrated by Russia's non-stop attacks on Ukraine and seemingly little interest in the peace deal that the President wants to secure, inside the Cabinet Room for nearly two hours today.
And I asked the President if he's prepared to take action on that front. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: We're not happy with Putin. I'm not happy with Putin, I can tell you that much right now, because he's killing a lot of people.
We get a lot of bullshit thrown at us by Putin, if you want to know the truth. He's very nice all the time, but it turns out to be meaningless.
COLLINS: Do you want to sanction him? Lindsey Graham has a sanctions bill on Russia. Do you want him to move ahead with that?
TRUMP: I'm looking at it, yes. No, I'm looking. The Senate is passing and passed a very -- very tough sanctions. But yes, I'm looking at it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Trump calling Putin's words, meaningless, stands out, given he's previously accused President Zelenskyy of standing in the way of a peace deal.
His frustration with Putin appears to be driving his new decision to send more weapons to Ukraine. That comes, despite a move by his Pentagon, just last week, to pause the shipment of some munitions going to Ukraine.
And when I asked him today if he personally approved that, the President sidestepped the question, and also Secretary Pete Hegseth, who was seated just to his left.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Last week, the Pentagon paused some shipments of weapons to Ukraine. Did you approve of that pause?
TRUMP: We want to put defensive weapons, because Putin is not -- he's not treating human beings right. He's killing too many people. So we're sending some defensive weapons to Ukraine, and I've approved that.
COLLINS: So who ordered the pause last week?
TRUMP: I don't know. Why don't you tell me?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. President--
COLLINS: I think that's a question for the Pentagon.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Instead of turning to his Defense Secretary, the President turned away and moved on to the next question.
But we have learned here tonight at CNN, that Secretary Hegseth did not inform the White House before he authorized that pause, and that it set off a scramble inside the administration to find out what had actually happened.
That comes tonight, as we are getting exclusive audio from 2024, of Trump, then as a candidate, discussing details of a private conversation that he once had with President Putin. The audio, obtained by the authors of a new book that is just out today.
And for context, the President has long said that Putin would never have invaded Ukraine on his watch, because of something he told him once privately. Trump had never revealed what that was.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I had a very strong conversation with President Putin, and he understood. And I won't go into the great details of the conversation. Because nobody has to know that. But I will tell you, it never ever would have happened.
I don't want to say it. But did they fear me? I suspect they did.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Well tonight, we're learning those details, as the audio reveals that Trump says that he threatened not just President Putin, but also China's President Xi Jinping. And this is what he told donors about what exactly that conversation looked like, during a private fundraiser, last year.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: With Putin, I said, 'if you go in to Ukraine, I'm gonna bomb the sh*t out of Moscow. I'm telling you I have no choice.'
So he goes like 'I don't believe you.' He said -- he said 'no way' and I said 'way.' And then he goes like 'I don't believe you.' But the truth is he believed me 10 percent. And I told you this, he believed me 10 percent.
Then I'm with President Xi of China.
But I said the same thing to them. I said, you know, 'if you go into Taiwan, I'm gonna bomb the sh*t out of Beijing.' He thought I was crazy, he said 'Beijing? You're gonna bomb Beijing?' I said, 'I have no choice. I got to bomb you. We're gonna bomb Beijing.'
[21:05:00]
And he didn't believe me either, he said 10 percent. And 10 percent is all you need. In fact 5 percent would have been OK too. And we never had a problem. We would have never had a problem.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: The Trump campaign declined to comment on the content of what you just heard there.
But the three deeply-sourced reporters, who acquired that exclusive audio are joining me now tonight. Josh Dawsey at The Wall Street Journal. Isaac Arnsdorf of The Washington Post. Of course, also Tyler Pager of The Times as well. Are all three of the authors on the brand- new book that is out today. "2024: How Trump Retook the White House and the Democrats Lost America."
And Josh Dawsey, I mean, you obviously have covered Trump, along with me, for years now. Given the audio of what you heard the President saying about Putin then, I wonder what you made of how fed up he seemed with him today.
JOSH DAWSEY, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, THE WALL STREET JOURNAL, CO- AUTHOR, "2024": Well, I think what he was trying to tell the donors there, Kaitlan, was that he could have deterred this. He could have stopped this. You heard him say on the campaign trail, If you reelect me, I can stop this immediately.
And it's clear Vladimir Putin has not been listening to what Trump wants, right? I mean, Trump says, I've been doing all these calls, are frustrating. Today, he unleashed a profanity, as he was sort of describing what he thought of Vladimir Putin, and what he was doing.
But what you see in that tape is Trump, behind closed doors, to his richest donors in New York, telling them, You know, I had control over these guys, basically espousing the Madman Theory, right? They thought I was just crazy enough that maybe I would have done something if they cross me, and I use that to basically get them to do what I wanted them to do.
And I think what -- the frustration you're seeing now, from President Trump? We've reported, he says, Vladimir Putin has changed. He makes all of these comments in private about how he used to think he had a better relationship with Vladimir Putin. And I think Putin's just not listening to him. Putin's not listening to what Trump wants him to do.
COLLINS: Yes, I mean, and Isaac when Trump was running -- and obviously that is the -- a deep part of the book, is what the Trump campaign looked like internally, as well as the Biden and Harris campaign. But when he was running, the argument that he made to voters was, I can fix this. I can handle this. Putin is scared of me and intimidated by me. As Josh mentioned there.
And now, here we are that he's been in office for several months, and is realizing that Putin isn't showing a lot of interest in getting the deal that Trump wants here.
ISAAC ARNSDORF, SENIOR WHITE HOUSE REPORTER, THE WASHINGTON POST, CO- AUTHOR, "2024": Well, more often than Putin being scared of him, it was, Putin was someone he had a good relationship with, and Trump has often talked about Putin as someone who could make a deal with, you know, that there -- they could find some common ground.
And a lot of Russia specialists in the U.S. national security establishment looked at that and said, Putin is not interested in improving relations with the West. He wants nothing to do with the West. It just doesn't work that way, you can just give him what he wants and he's going to go home. That's not a way to resolve this war. And Trump is finding that out the hard way now, that he's six months into -- past due on his promise, for that war to be over, and he's clearly frustrated.
COLLINS: Josh, what did it say to you when Trump was asked, when I asked him, Who directed the pause of this shipment of munitions? Clearly, something he did not want, given he has just said he's going to send more to Ukraine.
DAWSEY: Right.
COLLINS: And he just essentially, turned it into an answer that he did not fully--
DAWSEY: Yes.
COLLINS: --elaborate on, and didn't turn to Hegseth who was sitting right next to him.
DAWSEY: Right, I mean, you and I have seen him do that many times, over the years, Kaitlan. When he wants to answer a question, he can often be long and verbose, and can tell you exactly what he wants.
And when he doesn't want to answer a question? He clearly didn't want to answer that question. He didn't, right? And I've always been very interested, as a reporter, when the President doesn't answer a question like that, what the answer might be? Obviously, we don't know, tonight.
COLLINS: And your other co-author, Tyler, is here with us now.
And Tyler Pager, obviously, in terms of watching that Cabinet meeting play out today. I think the President's reaction to this sanctions bill that a lot of Republican senators have been ready to vote on and pass, for weeks now, if not months, it was notable that he sounded more open today to that than we have heard him. The question remains, if he signs it and if it actually goes into to effect, because there's a waiver built in, as Senator Lindsey Graham has said, for the President.
But I wonder what it says to you, if he's losing patience and ready to try a different strategy here?
TYLER PAGER, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, THE NEW YORK TIMES, CO-AUTHOR, "2024": Yes, it's a remarkable evolution from the President. We've seen his shift, his tone and mood shift over the course of several months, as he's been frustrated by his inability to solve this conflict.
The President came into office, promising to be a president that achieved peace, and he has been frustrated that he's not been able to do that. I think he thought that he could get more done with Vladimir Putin than other presidents were able to do. And that's clearly not the case.
I think, from the audio you played earlier in the clip, he was bragging about his ability to negotiate or sort of put pressure on Putin. And it's much easier to do that from a campaign perspective than a governing perspective, and he's seeing that play out in real- time, and that's causing this shift.
[21:10:00]
COLLINS: Yes, it stood out in a real way.
And I want to talk more about the book, because there are so many buzzy pieces of it, and just it really does get behind-the-scenes of what was playing out behind closed doors that not all voters got to see what was happening in the inner workings of these campaigns.
But I do have the former Ambassador, Rahm Emanuel, here with me.
And just, given your expertise in this area, how you've seen foreign policy play out. I wonder what stood out to you, given Putin has never indicated he's ready to end this war. I don't think anyone has seen real -- real signs. I mean, he's had conversations with Trump, but it has always seemed like the ball is being pushed down the road here.
RAHM EMANUEL, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO JAPAN, FORMER OBAMA WH CHIEF OF STAFF, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL & GLOBAL AFFAIRS COMMENTATOR: Yes, I mean, look, I -- it's an assessment of power and position right now.
I think the President actually is in a much stronger position than the card he's playing. And Putin is in a much weaker position than the card he's playing. Why? You take the bombing in Iran, regardless of our politics, Putin sees that as a strong position, not just a madman position, but strong position. The aftershock is being felt in Beijing and Moscow.
You have a situation. Putin lost Syria. He has shown to be feckless on Iran. He's taken three-and-a-half years of a war in Ukraine, which a much smaller country and can't even get four provinces to close out. The military is weak. His intelligence failed on Wagner, on Ukraine, and on Syria. His economy, by his own Central Bank, has said, is collapsing. This is a person who's up against the wall.
And I -- you -- the President has an opportunity to both apply weapons pressure and sanction pressure. And he has -- if he does that, he can actually take the strength that the United States has and apply it to the weaknesses that Putin has. And he hasn't done that now. He's getting to that point.
And the reason Putin hasn't done this is because he has bet the house, and if he comes up short, he's got his own domestic political problems.
COLLINS: Well, and the sanctions bill would essentially affect the countries that are still buying oil from Russia, and that are not helping Ukraine here. I do think there's a question of what more you can do to hurt Russia.
EMANUEL: Well--
COLLINS: What we always heard from President Biden was they've basically done everything that they thought they could do.
EMANUEL: No, look, I mean, first of all, the sanctions were not a one and done. They come and they impact over time.
You just had reporting, just the other day about the economy is now, the war economy that pumped up false -- falsely, the economy in Russia, is starting to implode and self-implode. You have interest rates at 21 percent. Part of the oil executive being murdered the other day and being thrown out the window is because they're starting to actually criticize the stewardship of the economy so tied to the defense budget.
COLLINS: Can I--
EMANUEL: And strategically, around the globe, you literally see Putin as the emperor with no clothes.
COLLINS: What did you make of the audio though, that Josh and his co- authors, Isaac and Tyler, have obtained here--
EMANUEL: Right.
COLLINS: --where he's saying -- I mean, I guess the question is, did he actually say this to Xi Jinping and to Vladimir Putin.
EMANUEL: OK. I got to--
COLLINS: But he's saying that he threatened to bomb Beijing and Moscow.
EMANUEL: I've come to a view was -- this is maybe well-honed cynicism. What people can't say in front of donors, I won't exactly take at face value, especially this.
And second is, on China, let me say this. Everybody focuses on Taiwan. Look, you have the South China Sea with Philippines. That is a country, it is a country that's a treaty ally of the United States. You have our entire reputation and the clarity of our deterrence on stage.
I've always thought, as a former Ambassador to Japan, the South China Sea vis-a-vis Philippines, then the 38th parallel, the Korean Peninsula, then the Taiwan Straits. And Xi does not have confidence in his own military to make that move yet. So, to me, the real challenge is, right now, first and foremost in the front queue, is the South China Sea with the Philippines.
COLLINS: Yes, and questions, of course, of how this plays out--
EMANUEL: Yes.
COLLINS: --post-Iran strike.
But -- because Josh, I do want to -- there's another part of the audio that you guys obtained, from what the President, then-candidate Trump, was saying to donors. This is in terms of donations that he was taking in. I want everyone to listen to that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: He was worth 4 or 5 billion dollars. Most of it's - half of it's in cash. And he wants to have lunch with me over a million dollars. You know the guy. I've told you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, sir.
TRUMP: He wants to have lunch - I said 'you know a million dollars is not a lot.' You're worth 5, 6 billion dollars. You're much richer than that. I said 'you're poor compared to some.' I said, 'you're worth 5 or 6 billion dollars - you're talking about a million dollars and I got to have lunch? I'm not having lunch, you got to make it 25 million.' And he said 'oh that sounds like a lot.' I said 'you got two and a half billion in (bleep) cash.'
(LAUGHTER)
TRUMP: And he did it, he gave me 25 million dollars. It's crazy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Some people, Josh, might hear that and think, does that -- is that a campaign finance violation? Are we testing the boundaries of that?
What stood out to you when you listened to that from a -- from a source?
[21:15:00]
DAWSEY: Well, candidates aren't allowed to solicit directly that much money. But what really stood out to me, on that, was how audacious Trump had become as a fundraiser.
You know, he ran in 2016, saying, We're going to drain the swamp. We're going to take out special interests in money.
He's behind closed doors, and he's telling folks, some of his richest donors, who he's promising, you know, them, If you get me elected, I'll make sure your taxes go down. I'll get these protesters and these campuses thrown out of the country. You need to be quote-unquote Generous.
And he's telling them, what he thinks generous means, which is $25 million or more to have lunch with him. I don't know that we've ever seen a president, ask $25 million of any donor, of anyone, for a lunch or any sort of event. It's a pretty -- it's a pretty staggering sum. And I mean, Trump actually raised more money, this time.
One of the things sources told us in the course of the book is that in previous campaigns, Trump had hated making phone calls for money. He would have pinned (ph) some of his fundraisers, but he didn't like doing all of the photos. He would complain and say, How many clicks do I really have to do? How many of these pictures do I really have to take? This is miserable.
But this time, Trump got way more comfortable with the highest echelons of fundraising, and asking for sums of money that sort of have been unheard of in other contexts.
COLLINS: Yes.
And Tyler, the book obviously also gets into the Biden campaign, the Harris campaign, what those looked like.
Trump spoke to you all for the book.
But you also tried to speak to President Biden. I know you spoke to him. You called him in March, I believe, it was. He agreed to speak with you. But then when you called back, he had changed his number?
PAGER: Yes. So, as you say, we spoke to Donald Trump for the book. Josh went down to Mar-a-Lago, just before the inauguration.
And we felt it was just as important to speak to Joe Biden. He's obviously a major character in the book. I asked his aides, for months, to do an interview. They repeatedly said, No. They said it would conflict with the memoir he was writing.
I got his direct cellphone number, and I called him one evening in March. He called me back, and said he'd be willing to talk. We briefly spoke the next day, a conversation that was cut short as he was boarding an Amtrak train, but he seemed open to continuing that conversation. When I called back, subsequently, his number had eventually been disconnected, replaced by a Verizon wireless message that said, his number was no longer in service.
And in that time, I was treated to quite a bit of angry messages and phone calls from Biden aides, who were very upset that I had reached out directly to the President. But again, the President had shown interest in talking with me. And we thought, to deliver the comprehensive book of the 2024 election, it was important to talk to all of the key players involved.
COLLINS: And Isaac, I mean, one that's remarkable that you -- he changed his number, potentially, as a result of you calling.
But also Isaac, as this just gets into the end of this campaign, and what this looked like. I mean, there was that moment that everyone can never forget, from President Jimmy Carter's funeral, where it talks about what President Trump and President Obama were discussing in that moment that went viral. What were you told?
ARNSDORF: Our reporting is that Trump was inviting President Obama -- former President Obama to come play golf with him, and was describing his courses around the world to try to entice him to take him up on that offer.
But I think, symbolically, what that moment is demonstrating, is Trump was sitting there, like just another president, you know? You could no longer say that 2016 was a fluke and he didn't won -- he didn't win the popular vote. He won a mandate this time, and he was establishing a new place in history for himself.
COLLINS: Yes, and it's changed how he's approaching the office.
Everyone, thank you so much.
It is a brand-new book. It is out today. It is an excellent read. "2024: How Trump Retook the White House and the Democrats Lost America."
Thank you to my three authors for joining, and also Ambassador Rahm Emanuel.
Up next tonight. We're going to get an update on the ground, in Texas. That desperate search and rescue is still happening, as the Governor revealed a shocking number today, saying that more than a 170 people are still missing, most of them from a single county. Also, what the Governor said when he was asked by reporters about the Emergency Alert System, and whether or not he believes there should be accountability here.
We're on the ground in Texas, ahead.
[21:20:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: We got gut-wrenching news from Governor Greg Abbott, in Texas tonight, as he revealed that the number of people who are missing and unaccounted for is at least a 170, with a 161 of those people in Kerr County alone. That is about eight times as many people as we had previously thought. And the Governor is warning that that number could only rise.
At least a 111 people have been confirmed to have died in the floods. And as this search and recovery process is still underway tonight, and those teams are still doing that painstaking work to try to find people.
The Governor was questioned today about an investigation to determine if any one thing or system, like a flood warning system, could be held responsible after a tragedy like this one. The Governor said, the state legislature would be investigating that. But he took issue with the word, blame, in that question.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. GREG ABBOTT (R-TX): Who's to blame? Know this. That's the word choice of losers.
[21:25:00]
Let me explain one thing about Texas. And that is, Texas, every square inch of our state cares about football. You could be in Hunt, Texas, Huntsville, Texas, Houston, Texas, any size community that care about football, high school, Friday Night Lights, college football, or Pro. And know this. Every football team makes mistakes. The losing teams are the ones that try to point out who's to blame. The championship teams are the ones that say, Don't worry about it, man, we got this. We're going to make sure that we go score again, that we're going to win this game.
The way winners talk is not to point fingers. They talk about solutions. What Texas is all about is solutions.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: CNN's Ed Lavandera is in Ingram, Texas, in Kerr County, for me -- for us tonight.
And Ed, obviously, you know there's no question that the search teams have been doing everything, humanly possible here, to try to find people. There have been questions during this process about accountability, and what could have been done better.
What else did the Governor have to say, during that update earlier?
ED LAVANDERA, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Right. Well, a lot of these questions are about finding those solutions, so that people can understand exactly what may or may not have gone wrong, during those times.
But the Governor went on to point out this staggering number of more than a 161 possibly missing people, here in Kerr County alone, more than a 170 in the state as well.
And Kaitlan, what is troubling about that is that authorities here are also urging people to be very careful about how they remove this -- these massive debris -- debris piles on their property. They've issued a no -- no -- Burn Ban across the county.
Obviously, the concern is, if you think about a 161 possible people out there that need to be found, that they could very well be tangled up in these massive piles of debris. So, there's a great deal of concern about that. And it's obviously a process that's going to take many, many more days.
COLLINS: And obviously, part of this has been, hearing from officials earlier, in terms of what this looks like, whether or not there is that investigation underway. We'll have questions for the former FEMA administrator, on that in a second.
But a huge focus of this has been on Camp Mystic, which lost at least 27 people who were there, many of them who were campers, just children that were there. And CNN has found that a state inspector actually was at the camp two days before the floods occurred. What do we know about that visit?
LAVANDERA: Right. Yes, this state official with the Department of Health and Human Services here, in the State of Texas, had been at that camp, two days before, and found no violations. Kind of, essentially, they found that everything was proper with the camp's evacuation and emergency plans as well.
And so, the question is, is that what happened between the 01:00 a.m. and 04:00 a.m. hours, when there was a window there, perhaps, to get people to higher ground or evacuate in some sort of -- in some sort of way?
Some of our CNN colleagues asked local officials about that 01:00 a.m. to 04:00 a.m. hour, earlier today, and this is what officials here had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ISABEL ROSALES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I would like to know, if you could outline please, what the specific actions and discussions were that local officials took between 01:14 a.m., that's when the first flood Emergency alert came out, and hours later when the river first started flooding. What happened in those hours?
SHERIFF LARRY LEITHA, KERR COUNTY, TEXAS: What I can tell you, when I was first notified, it was around the 04:00 to 05:00 area. One of my sergeants was in dispatch when the first calls started coming in, the actual 9-1-1 calls coming in.
REPORTER: That was at like 04:00 in the morning?
LEITHA: It was between 04:00 or 05:00 when I got notified, OK? But prior to that, in that 03:00 to 04:00 area, my understanding is -- and we are in the process of trying to put a timeline. You know, that's going to take a little bit of time. As I've told you several times, that is not my priority this time. There's three priorities. That's locating -- locating the people out there, identify and notify the next of kin. That is what I'm taking as my job as sheriff here to do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LAVANDERA: So, Kaitlan, you heard there from local officials. Really, the task that they're focused on, at this point, is recovering the missing people. And that, in and of itself, is an incredibly daunting task, as we've seen for several days now, out here.
Kaitlan.
COLLINS: Yes, it's got to be just brutal for those first responders, and the search and rescue teams.
Ed Lavandera, thank you for that update from the ground.
LAVANDERA: You got it.
COLLINS: And we'll obviously continue to follow those efforts very closely.
For the questions here that are -- that are on this, Deanne Criswell is joining me now. She served as the FEMA Administrator under President Biden.
And it's great to have you here.
Because I do think, as we look at this, multiple things can be true at once. Even with a better warning system, those floodwaters might have just been too much, when it comes to people escaping and being able to get out. And also, maybe there was a failure that needs to be examined here.
And so, I do wonder, from your experience leading FEMA, what observations you can share here, and what questions do you have.
[21:30:00]
DEANNE CRISWELL, FORMER FEMA ADMINISTRATOR: Kaitlan, I think what we saw happen in Kerr County was really a perfect storm. You had a historic rainfall that occurred, and then it stalled over this community, and it happened at the most dangerous time of day, which is in the middle of the night, when people are sleeping.
And so, with that, this community is overwhelmed, right? These are people that -- the first responders are doing their best. But probably many of them have also lost loved ones, and are still out there trying to get to everybody that has been unaccounted for and missing. And so, I can understand how overwhelmed this community is feeling, right at the moment.
There's a lot of questions, and these questions need to be answered. But I do agree that this community needs to focus, right now, on finding all of those that were missing, and bringing in all of the right resources so they can get that done as quickly as possible.
COLLINS: The Lieutenant Governor said, yesterday, that maybe sirens would have helped, or that he believed they would, that they need to be installed there. Because, we've seen in a nearby town, Comfort, Texas. They have them in the next county over. They use them to successfully warn residents to evacuate, to get to higher ground.
What tools are at their disposal here, potentially going forward? Siren's the only one? Or is there something else that you think could have made a difference?
CRISWELL: Well, I haven't been there, but I can imagine, with the terrain, that they had limited cell coverage. And one of the key tools that emergency managers and emergency responders use to warn is the wireless emergency alerts, those things that come over your phone. But if you don't have cell signal, you do have to look at what else is available.
Sirens are a great tool, and we've seen them be used successfully in many communities, even during the western North Carolina floods. There was a community that used sirens that they purchased with Hazard Mitigation funding from FEMA that helped save so many lives. And so, they are a critical tool, and one that they should look at and figure out how they can best put those in, perhaps in the future.
But even something as simple as a NOAA Weather Radio, right? If you look at the Ready.gov website, you know, in that, we talk about building a kit. And in that kit, it's recommended that individuals have a NOAA Weather Radio. That radio is going to get those same alerts.
COLLINS: Yes.
CRISWELL: It doesn't rely on cell signals. So it's another tool, inexpensive tool, that's available.
COLLINS: Well, and in terms of FEMA, and the role that it plays in this. Obviously, you ran FEMA. President Trump has talked about wanting to wean states off of it, and saying that disaster recovery should be more of the responsibility of the states.
I was asking him today if, given what has happened in Texas -- and he's declared a FEMA Disaster Declaration there for the state, to unlock federal funding to help them, I asked if he still felt that way. This is what he told me inside the Cabinet Room.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Anything on FEMA, Mr. President? What's your view of FEMA right now? You had said before you wanted to wean the states off of it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you, press. Thank you, press.
TRUMP: I'll tell you -- I'll tell you sometime later (ph).
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you, press.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you, press.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I don't know if you could hear him. He said he would -- he would essentially tell us later.
If that does happen here, how would it affect disaster responses, in your view?
CRISWELL: Kaitlan, it's important to start this conversation with understanding that all of these disasters have always been locally executed, state-managed and federally-supported.
FEMA has never been the one that's been in charge of running the responses. I think you've heard some leaders say. They've always come in at the request of a state, and to support when they're overwhelmed, or when it -- when it's exceeded their capacity.
If you're going to push all of this down to states and locals, without that support at all, for them to go back to? You're going to see communities like this, that don't have the capacity to -- and they're going to have a harder time responding to these incidents.
If we look at this incident alone, Texas, one of the most, if not the most capable state that's out there, that also needed assistance in this response and will need assistance in recovery? What does that say for other communities, other states, other small jurisdictions, if FEMA is not there to help them?
We have to have a thoughtful conversation about reform and what problems we're trying to fix, because there are problems to fix. But it has to be in partnership with the state and the locals.
COLLINS: Deanne Criswell, it's great to have you. Thank you for joining tonight.
CRISWELL: Thanks, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: Up next. We are hearing an incredible story of survival in Texas. How one woman's neighbor was able to rescue her, and her two dogs, as the floodwaters were rising, She's my source, right after this.
[21:35:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: We have some breaking news tonight, as we are keeping an eye on scenes like this one, out of southern New Mexico, where water rescues are underway, after a flash flood emergency was issued there in Ruidoso, a river rising from under two feet to more than 20 feet, in just about half an hour after some torrential rain in the area. We're keeping a very close eye on that, this hour. We'll update you as we learn more.
But this also comes as what we are seeing out of Texas is just downright heartbreaking, and harrowing stories of people who were able to survive the catastrophic flash floods there.
That includes my next guest tonight, Leigh-Anne Aiken, who was staying in a cabin along the river that was hit by the floods, on Friday morning, and a neighbor was able to rescue her, and her two dogs. And she joins me now.
[21:40:00]
Leigh-Anne, let me just first say, on behalf of everybody, we're so glad that you're safe and that you're OK. I'm so sorry for what you've been through as well. Can you just kind of walk me through what happened, on Friday morning, when you realized that something was wrong?
LEIGH-ANNE AIKEN, TEXAS FLOOD SURVIVOR: Yes, ma'am. So, it was probably about 03:30 or 04:00 in the morning that the storm -- what I thought were storm noises, and my dogs were waking me up with storm noises. And it -- after a while, I began to realize this wasn't normal storm noises. And I was texting my girlfriends on the phone, like, It's really loud.
I'm almost completely deaf. I have profound hearing loss, so I normally wear hearing aids, but not at night. And so, it was different kind of noise. And I said, It's really loud, and I'm going to go check. And I put my feet down, and I was ankle-deep in water. The power was already out, so it was pitch-dark, except for the light from the screen of my phone.
I called Brian (ph) right away, and I said, Hey, there's water in my cabin, and I'm really scared. And he said, Just wait right there. And he came straight down. I grabbed some things. By the time he got to me, it's maybe 200 yards, but by the time he got to me, the water was already to my knees. And he grabbed my larger dog by the collar. I had the small dog and--
(DOGS BARKING)
AIKEN: Sorry about that.
Brian (ph), can you help with them?
And so he had him by the collar and clutch (ph) had to swim because the water was already to our thighs. And by the time we got to his cabin, the water was up to our hips. It rose from our ankles to our waist in less than probably 15 minutes.
It was really terrifying, because even once we got inside the cabin on a little bit higher ground, we almost immediately saw some lights, we thought were a rescue boat, maybe, or something. It was all so fast. It was my car was floating by. I guess, the alarm was triggered by all the water rushing in, and it just floated by the window. And I was really scared. I've never been in anything like that before. And he kept a really level-head.
And we had another guest, another tenant, in the first cabin, and she tried to come over to us, and he said, No, no, no, stay in yours and get the dogs up high. So we put the dogs up on shelves and counters. And she was alone in hers, which made me sad for her, because when I went back down to my cabin, the waterline was to my shoulders. And if Brian (ph) hadn't come for me, I probably would have washed away, and my dogs most certainly would have washed away.
COLLINS: I mean, just it's a terrifying thought. And also, to hear you say, that you have -- you rely on hearing aids to be able to hear that. I mean, there's been so many questions about alerts and warnings and making sure people were able to know what was happening, and that this was -- that this was a potential weather event that was going to go down.
AIKEN: Yes, yes, ma'am. So, there has been a lot of conversation about that. And I'm a Red Cross Disaster Action Team Responder, and I'm a certified CERT responder, Community Emergency Response Team.
And in other towns where I've lived and worked, some of them have those siren systems. But I'm going to tell you, with the more of that river, and how quickly it went? I mean, yes, those systems are great. I got an alert on my phone or two, but it wasn't fast enough. And I don't know that anything could have been fast enough for this specific event. COLLINS: Yes.
AIKEN: I do think it needs to all be looked at, and some community awareness happening about what to do, individually, in your homes.
COLLINS: Yes.
AIKEN: We pushed out a lot in Red Cross and CERT, so yes.
COLLINS: That's a great point, and obviously a great question that a lot of people, I think, have.
Leigh-Anne, I'm so glad that you were able to get out and be OK. I'm glad that Brian (ph) was there. And also grateful the dogs are OK. Thank you. Thank you so much for joining us. And I'm so sorry for what you've been through.
AIKEN: Well, I'm just grateful to be here. And I'm continuing to pray for all those that are volunteering to search.
COLLINS: Yes. Absolutely.
AIKEN: And for the community that's been rallying around to help rebuild already. It's pretty amazing.
COLLINS: Yes.
AIKEN: I love this community.
COLLINS: Yes.
AIKEN: So, thank you, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: Thank you, Leigh-Anne. Thank you for joining us.
And as I said, we'll keep an eye on what's happening there on the ground.
[21:45:00]
Also, we're going to check back in, here in Washington. The President today, at that Cabinet meeting that stretched for nearly two hours, was questioned about what Attorney General, Pam Bondi, has said in the past about Jeffrey Epstein. Now that that new memo has made MAGA erupt in anger. New reporting on that ahead, right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: We have new reporting tonight, as many of President Trump's closest advisers, inside and outside the White House, are frustrated, apparently, with Attorney General, Pam Bondi, and the way she handled what is known as the Epstein files. One official from the administration argued that the Attorney General, quote, Bungled the case from the start. While another told CNN, It wasn't the rollout that we would have liked. Now, in today's Cabinet meeting, the question about this memo, regarding Jeffrey Epstein, made the President visibly exasperated when a reporter was asked about this, and the idea that there would be no further disclosures on Jeffrey Epstein.
[21:50:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I mean, I can't believe you're asking a question on Epstein, at a time like this, where we're having some of the greatest success, and also tragedy with what happened in Texas. It just seems like a desecration.
But, you go ahead.
PAM BONDI, ATTORNEY GENERAL: Sure. Sure. First, to back up on that, in February, I did an interview on Fox, and it's been getting a lot of attention, because I said -- I was asked a question about the client list, and my response was, It's sitting on my desk to be reviewed, meaning, the file along with the JFK, MLK files as well. That's what I meant by that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now, Bondi, in particular, has been under fire, after the Justice Department said there is no evidence that Jeffrey Epstein kept a client list, despite suggestions that she has made otherwise in the past.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN ROBERTS, FOX NEWS CHANNEL HOST: The DOJ may be releasing the list of Jeffrey Epstein's clients? Will that really happen?
BONDI: It's sitting on my desk right now to review.
JESSE WATTERS, FOX NEWS HOST: One of the things a lot of people are wondering, because you said last week that you have the Epstein files on your desk is--
BONDI: I did.
WATTERS: --When can we see them? And what's taking so long to release them?
BONDI: I think tomorrow, Jesse, breaking news, right now, you're going to see some Epstein information being released, by my office.
I was briefed on that yesterday. I can't talk about that that publicly. But, you know, President Trump has given a very strong directive, and that's going to be followed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Wow. OK. So--
BONDI: A lot of documents. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, OK, all right. So, people can expect actual movement on this, not just empty promises?
BONDI: Oh, Donald Trump--
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
BONDI: --doesn't make empty promises.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, right.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Turns out, there were not a lot of documents.
My insiders are here.
CNN's Evan Perez.
And Semafor's Shelby Talcott.
And Evan, you've been doing the reporting on this, along with some of our colleagues, on people saying, This is a political nightmare, the way they released this memo, it was unsigned. And for people who aren't online, looking at this, it has infuriated the MAGA base--
EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yes.
COLLINS: --how they've handled this.
PEREZ: Oh, yes. I mean the -- beginning in February, when that first rollout happened with the event at the White House, where they brought in MAGA influencers and gave them these binders. And it turned out, all these binders had documents that have been public for years, right? And that's what a lot of people don't seem to know. And the Attorney General herself seemed to not know that a lot of this stuff had been public.
And Bill Barr had looked at these documents, had looked at some of the tapes, and had determined that, obviously, there was no indication that Epstein was murdered, which was one of the big parts of this conspiracy. And then secondly, that there was some secret client list.
And so, look, the problem here is that they kept talking about this, even though, by March, they knew that they could not release more of these documents, because the FBI went through them, and realized that they were going to be ended up thousands of pages with blacked out, you know, solid black, right? And that would have only infuriated and probably propelled the conspiracies even more.
COLLINS: Yes.
Shelby, what are you hearing? I mean, the President was asking today, who cares about this? I mean, there are a lot of his supporters who are upset about this. SHELBY TALCOTT, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, SEMAFOR: Right. I thought that was a really interesting response, because his base are the people who are--
PEREZ: They care a lot.
TALCOTT: --who care a lot about this. And so, it was notable that he's sort of dismissing this. And I think he genuinely is dismissing it. He genuinely doesn't see it as a priority. But the interesting thing is, his base does.
I've talked to a dozen of his top supporters, some of whom were those very influencers who got that binder, in February, who are extremely frustrated. And they're telling me, this is not something that they plan to let go, despite the President basically telling them.
I've heard from administration officials who are frustrated with Pam Bondi. I had one person say, She's the one that's been continuously overpromising for months. And so, there is a general sense of frustration, and it's aimed, largely, at Pam Bondi, because she was the one going on TV, consistently, and saying these things, and they feel like she overpromised and under-delivered.
COLLINS: Yes, Elon Musk--
PEREZ: I mean, there's no indication, though, right, that the President is going to do anything about this.
COLLINS: Right.
PEREZ: I mean, her job is safe as far -- I mean, you would know better, because you're at the White House.
COLLINS: And that was what we were watching for so closely--
PEREZ: Yes.
COLLINS: --inside the Cabinet Room today, was. Because that was because that was obviously something was going to get asked about. But how he responded to that. He exploded at the New York Post reporter who asked about it.
PEREZ: Yes.
COLLINS: And didn't have any frustration with her. We'll see if that changes--
PEREZ: Yes.
COLLINS: --as this continues to build.
Evan Perez, great reporting. Shelby Talcott, as well.
Up next today. During that Cabinet meeting, there was a remarkable moment that happened at the end. We'll take you inside of it, next.
[21:55:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: President Trump spent part of his Cabinet meeting, on Tuesday, showing his senior aides how he had redecorated the Cabinet Room.
He pointed out multiple different portraits of former Presidents that he had placed around the room, including of Polk, Eisenhower, Andrew Jackson. He even, at one point, quizzed his own Cabinet secretaries, including the Education Secretary, Linda McMahon, about whether or not he should install gold-leafing around the top of the room.
He pointed out new lights that he had installed, and also focused on a clock that was in the corner of the room that most people probably wouldn't have noticed, but the President said he actually saw it at the State Department, and took it from Secretary of State, Marco Rubio, who was laughing, as the President told this story.
It's just one more instance of the President now, he's been redecorating and reshaping the West Wing and the East Wing to more of what his style is, and what he likes to see. A lot of what you see at his Mar-a-Lago Club, in Florida, for example.
[22:00:00]
The President talked about he had redecorated the Oval Office, and he's also still in the middle of completely renovating the Rose Garden, paving over the grass, and instead making it look more like the patio at Mar-a-Lago.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: At one point, he even quizzed the Cabinet, who was seated there, and asked them if he should put gold-leafing around the Cabinet Room. They all seemed to say, yes. We'll see if that happens.
Thanks so much for joining us.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" is up next.
