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The Source with Kaitlan Collins

Sources: FEMA's Flood Response Slowed By Noem's Cost Controls; Trump: Haven't Gotten Into Who Ordered Ukraine Weapons Pause; Linda Yaccarino Steps Down As CEO Of Elon Musk's X. Aired 9-10p ET

Aired July 09, 2025 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[21:00:00]

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: --"Live Aid: When Rock 'n' Roll Took On the World" premieres Sunday, at 09:00 p.m. Eastern and Pacific, right here on CNN.

That's it for us. The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now. I'll see you, tomorrow.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Tonight, new CNN reporting on what slowed down the federal response to the flooding in Texas.

I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.

Tonight, as we come on the air, here at CNN, we have brand-new reporting on what was happening with the emergency response in Texas, both at the local level and at the federal level, as the floodwaters raged, and in the hours and days after.

As the sun is starting to set on Texas Hill Country, exhausted recovery crews are closing out their fifth day, doing the painstaking work that you see here, waiting through the devastation, to find people and loved ones who are still missing tonight. The death toll now stands at a 120 people, many of them we know are children.

Those who survived are recounting just how fast and furious the water moved in.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LORENA GUILLEN, RESTAURANT OWNER IN KERRVILLE, TEXAS: And the screams, the screams is what haunts me. Every time I close my eyes, I hear people screaming.

They were coming, walking this way, and my husband keep yelling at him, Throw me your baby, throw me your baby. So he can save the baby, just, just that. And then a wave came, and it took him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: As that grueling search goes on, and more stories like that are coming out, we're getting new reporting, here tonight at CNN, about the federal response. And CNN has learned that the response from FEMA was actually slowed by efforts to constrain federal spending.

The Homeland Security Secretary, Kristi Noem, oversees FEMA, and she recently put in place a sweeping rule that every contract and grant over a $100,000 requires her personal sign-off before any of those funds can be released. Officials at FEMA have told CNN that, in essence, that order has stripped the agency of much of its autonomy, at the very moment that its help is needed the most.

For example, here, sources inside the agency are telling CNN that officials were ready to get urban search and rescue teams in position, when the water was starting to rise, on Friday. But a new rule that was put in place, by the Secretary, required her personal sign-off, first. That sign-off, multiple sources told CNN, didn't come until Monday, more than 72 hours after the flooding began.

A DHS spokesperson responded, in part, with this, saying, quote, "FEMA is shifting from a bloated, DC-centric dead weight to a lean, deployable disaster force that empowers state actors to provide relief for their citizens."

We're going to get a live report on the ground in Texas.

But I'm first joined, on this new reporting, by Deanne Criswell, who is the former FEMA Administrator under President Biden.

And Administrator, just given your expertise on this. And on these new rules that have been put in place to rein in federal spending, which obviously we know has been a big goal of the administration. But when you're actually on the ground, in a moment like this, and making those split-second decisions, what rules would like -- would something like this have meant for you, in a moment like the floods in Texas, and as that's happening.

DEANNE CRISWELL, FORMER FEMA ADMINISTRATOR: Kaitlan, I lived by one very simple principle, and that is, time is our most precious commodity. You can never get time back. And so, the quicker you can move resources into an area, even before you know the extent of it, then the easier it's going to be, to be able to support those state requests for assistance immediately.

What happened, I think, here is that we couldn't move, or FEMA couldn't move, those resources in, like they normally would, to be on the ground ready, once they found out how bad the situation was, and you lose time. And that's time that can cost lives in the end.

And so, it's really important for emergency managers to always be proactive, and thinking ahead, and getting the resources in place. If you don't need them? Great, we'll turn around, we'll send them back. It's better not to have them -- not to need them, and have them, than the other way around.

COLLINS: Can you just put in perspective? A $100,000 obviously, is a lot of money. And so, when someone reads that, they say, OK, well, that's a pretty large expense. But if you're operating from FEMA's perspective, typically, or sometimes, these responses can soar to the billions of dollars, depending on, on just the severity of them. If you're inside FEMA, does that seem like a small expenditure? Is that a pretty small thing that you need to get the Secretary of Homeland Security's sign-off for?

[21:05:00]

CRISWELL: When it comes to responding to a disaster and starting the recovery, there's very little that the federal government, in general, supports in those situations that's less than a $100,000. And so, what it does is it takes away the one critical aspect that FEMA has, and that's the agility to move fast.

We don't ever want to be late to need. And so now, with this added layer of approval that's out there, it just makes it harder for them to be proactive, to think ahead and get resources in place ahead of time.

COLLINS: So, do you think this red tape would have -- would have slowed down a response in, from your experience of running FEMA?

CRISWELL: So, when I was at FEMA, we would have had teams moving, on Friday, and they would have been in place, staged, waiting for the state to say, Yes, I need them, or No, I don't need them.

And so, they had to wait until Monday to be, from what I understand, to even be able to move them. Where, they would have been moving on Friday, and they would have been in place even before this approval came through on Monday.

COLLINS: President Trump has said that he wants to see states weaned off of FEMA. He said this before what happened in Texas. I tried to ask him, yesterday, if he still feels that way and wants to see that happen, and he said he would tell us later.

But we have seen the Secretary, Kristi Noem, who at a Cabinet meeting in March, I believe, said that she believed FEMA should be eliminated. She's repeating those calls tonight, saying that this essentially should be something that's out of the federal government's hands and in states government's hands.

I want everyone to just listen to what the Secretary said in her own words.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KRISTI NOEM, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: Federal emergency management should be state and locally led, rather than how it has operated for decades. It has been slow to respond, at the federal level. It's even been slower to get the resources to Americans in crisis. And that is why this entire agency needs to be eliminated as it exists today and remade into a responsive agency.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: What would you say to that? CRISWELL: A core principle of emergency management, Kaitlan, has always been locally-executed, state-managed and federally-supported. FEMA does not run these incidents. They never have. And they come in only at the request of the state, in order to support them when it exceeds their capacity.

When we look at a state like Texas, the most capable state probably in the country, that also needed to ask for assistance, first, through state to state mutual aid, and then FEMA, if they need that kind of assistance? What is that going to say for every other state or small jurisdiction out there, when they have a big event and they don't have the federal government that they're used to depending on?

We can't ask states to replicate everything that the federal government can provide. They just won't be able to do it. And so, you need to have a federal agency that is responsive, gets in there fast, like they would have been there sooner, and be able to sit side by side with that state director.

Again, Kaitlan, changes need to be made, mostly in the recovery. Part of that recovery process is long and cumbersome, things that frustrated me, but we need to do it smartly. We need to do it in partnership with states, tribes, territories, local jurisdictions, to understand what truly needs to happen in order to be able to deliver the way the American people need it.

COLLINS: How do you judge the federal government's response so far in Texas? I mean, obviously we have this reporting on what FEMA officials are saying they experienced, from two very well-sourced reporters, here at CNN tonight on this.

I just wonder, though, from your perspective, since Friday, what you have made of what you have seen, and if you think that they have done a good job, or if there is room for improvement in your view?

CRISWELL: Well, first, I just want to give credit to the Coast Guard. They did such an amazing job in those first few hours after the flooding, and rescuing hundreds of people.

The Coast Guard is one of the best partners, not just with FEMA, but always with state and locals, and they always come in to help them when they have incidents like this, even if they don't reach a presidential disaster declaration. And so, that needs to continue to be augmented.

And I know that the women and men of FEMA are ready to support. There's people on the ground. There's not as many as I would have put on the ground. But I know that they're working closely with those state officials, those local officials, to make sure that they are going to get the resources that they need to help with this recovery process.

COLLINS: Deanne Criswell, thank you for joining with your expertise tonight. Really appreciate you.

CRISWELL: Thanks, Kaitlan. COLLINS: Now, I mentioned that we're learning more about what happened, not just inside the federal level, but also inside the local level, as the questions about the response, and what happened in the hours, as these floodwaters were rising, continued.

[21:10:00]

Officials in Kerr County, Texas, today have been defending their response, and detailing how they managed to save hundreds of people in the first hour of that flash flood emergency, as we saw it playing out on the morning of July 4th.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JONATHAN LAMB, KERRVILLE COMMUNITY SERVICES OFFICER: Door to door, waking people up, convincing them that, Yes, the floodwaters are coming and you need to leave now.

Folks, I don't know how many lives our KPD team saved in an hour in Kerrville. But I know that this tragedy, as horrific as it is, could have been so much worse.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: County officials have also been facing questions about a report that a local firefighter called dispatch at 04:22 a.m., to request a mass emergency alert to people's phones.

Of course, that Fire Chief has been speaking about this, and saying what his call was. According to CNN affiliate, KSAT, the CodeRED was pleaded for. And as that was going on, the questions about what happened right after that, and when some got it, didn't happen at times until hours later.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: How do you account for that lapse of time -- what happened and what could have happened in that time?

SHERIFF LARRY LEITHA, KERR COUNTY, TEXAS: OK. As I've said earlier, with every significant event, you know, we're going -- with every emergency, you know what? We're going to have to -- there's going to be an after-action.

Please, y'all listen to those words, after-action, OK? Those -- those questions are going to be answered. I believe those questions need to be answered, to the family of the missed loved ones, to the public, you know, to the people that put me in this office, those need to be. And I want that answer, and we're going to get that answer.

And I know that's going to be asked over and over. Please understand that, you know, we don't have -- we're not running, we're not going to hide from everything. That's going to be checked into at a later time. I wish I could tell you that time. I don't know that time.

(END VIDEO CLIP) COLLINS: CNN's Ed Lavandera is on the ground, in Texas, for CNN tonight.

And Ed, as you just hear what officials were saying. I watched this whole press conference. They were clearly very frustrated. But there are questions about what the response looked like. And I know that they have a lot that they are dealing with, obviously, with so many people still missing. I think everyone can empathize with the stress that these officials are feeling tonight.

But when it comes to what we've learned about this CodeRED alert, what do we know exactly about when this firefighter called, and what happened in the aftermath of that?

ED LAVANDERA, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, this call came from a volunteer firefighter with the town -- in the Town of Ingram, which is several miles downstream from Camp Mystic and the Town of Hunt, that took the initial brunt of this massive wall of water coming down the Guadalupe River.

But in that call, the dispatch person with the Kerr County Sheriff's Office said that they needed to get approval, according to our CNN affiliate, KSAT, in San Antonio, that the -- that that needed approval to send out that CodeRED to -- from a supervisor.

So, this is another piece of this puzzle, as many people are trying to figure out what happened in those hours between 01:15, when that wireless emergency alert went out to -- or supposed to have gone out to everybody in the region, warning them of this potentially life- threatening flooding situation that was developing.

There's a three hour window there, Kaitlan, where there appears to have been some breakdown in communication. And perhaps, had there not been, that many more lives could have been -- could have been saved in this situation.

COLLINS: What else can you tell us, just about what's happening on the ground tonight, what you're hearing from officials, and also what you're hearing from survivors, as this is continuing to go on?

LAVANDERA: Right. Well, as those questions are swirling, what is dominating everything on the ground here, Kaitlan, and in their view, obviously, rightfully so, is the painstaking work, along the Guadalupe River, which local Texas officials say is a search for the missing. That extends some 200 miles from Kerr County, east from here. And that is painstaking work.

We spent the day, walking through the riverbed of the Guadalupe River, watching these volunteers' search teams doing painstaking work.

In some cases, we saw volunteers and workers on their hands and knees, picking out with their hands, piles of debris. Because the concern has been and the warnings have gone out from officials here is that people who are around the river need to be very careful and very delicate with the massive piles of debris in here. Obviously, the concern is that there are victims and the missing, trapped and entangled in all of that. And that gives and has created an extremely, and I can't overstate this enough, somber mood for all of these people walking along and working in the Guadalupe River, as they are trying desperately to find people, get them back to their loved ones, and they know that this is work that's probably going to take days, if not weeks, to complete.

Kaitlan.

[21:15:00]

COLLINS: Yes. I mean, Ed, what does that response look like in terms of just the size of it? We're several days in. But every day, I mean, the numbers are just getting bigger and bigger.

And I know, officials had had an idea that that number was going to go up substantially, as it did yesterday. But I mean, what are they saying about the outlook of how they're feeling about this, as they're noting, no survivors have been found since Friday.

LAVANDERA: Right. I think as difficult as it is to say, when we talk to people on the ground, I don't believe that there is anybody, working in the Guadalupe River, who expects, at this point, this many days out from the catastrophic event, to find a survivor. Not to say that that they're not giving up that hope, but it's probably a sliver at this point.

They are much more concerned in being able to conduct those operations, in a delicate way, in a respectful way. It's almost like, is like it's -- it's like you're coming across people who are working in a graveyard, and I hate to be so -- so direct about it, but that is the mood and the sense that these people are operating under. That, they know that under any little piece of debris that they uncover, that there could be somebody there. And the weight and the magnitude of making a discovery like that, I think, weighs on virtually everyone we're seeing working up and down the Guadalupe River right now.

COLLINS: Yes, that's such a good point, Ed, about what they're -- what they're going through, and what they're looking for.

Ed Lavandera, on the ground, in Texas, thank you.

And up next. I'm going to speak to someone who knows exactly how that feels. The father of Aidan Heartfield is one of those people who's been out there, searching for his son after he was swept away, along with his friends, on the early morning hours. His father has been personally leading a search and rescue operation. I'm going to speak with him, next.

[21:20:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: Tonight, rescue teams and volunteers are desperately searching through debris, for survivors, after catastrophic flooding in Central Texas. The father of Aidan Heartfield, has been one, leading one of those groups.

Aidan was staying at home, with three of his friends, including his girlfriend, in Hunt, Texas, which sits right along the Guadalupe River, when the rushing water started surging into the home. Aidan remains missing tonight, as search groups have recovered the bodies of his three friends, Ella Cahill (ph), Joyce Badon (ph), and Reese Menchaca (ph).

It is a parent's worst nightmare, and a rescue mission that truly none could be prepared for. And that is why I'm so grateful that Thad Heartfield, Aidan's dad, is joining me now.

And I just want to say, on behalf of everyone, that I'm so incredibly sorry for what you're going through. I don't even know how to properly express that. And I just want to know--

THAD HEARTFIELD, SON AIDAN MISSING AFTER FLOODS, LEADS SEARCH GROUP FOR TEXAS FLOOD VICTIMS: Well, thank you. Thank you.

COLLINS: --how you're holding up, and what's been happening.

HEARTFIELD: Well, surprisingly, I'm -- I -- continue this search, and I will do it until we have confirmation that Aidan has been recovered from the river.

COLLINS: And you were on the phone with him, early in the morning, as the waters were rushing in. What was he saying to you about what he was seeing and asking for help on?

HEARTFIELD: Yes, I received a call from Aidan at 04:00 a.m. on the Fourth. And the call, I don't even know if it lasted seven minutes, maybe less, but he was telling me that there was four inches of water in the house, and that -- I asked him to get the -- with the girls, and get to the highway, which was higher ground than our home, and up a hill called Japonica Hill.

And within moments, they were able to get to a back porch, and within those moments, the water rose from four inches to four feet inside the house, and my son saw their vehicles wash away, and he said he could not make it to the highway, that the water was too fast and too high.

And -- I apologize, I'm on a helicopter flight path.

COLLINS: And those are helicopters, I should note, that are part of the search efforts that have been going on.

HEARTFIELD: They are.

And so, within just moments, the water went from four inches to four feet. And as they got onto the back porch, they saw the vehicles wash away.

It was apparent that I was telling him urgently to get to the highway, but he could not go through that deep water, rushing that fast. And it became apparent that Ella (ph), and their friend, Reese (ph), were having trouble stabilizing themselves on the porch, and Aidan handed his phone to their friend, Joyce Catherine (ph), so that he could stabilize them on a -- on the support to the porch.

[21:25:00]

Joyce (ph) told me that in that, those very moments that she thought Aidan had been hit by debris, and was in the water. And within seconds, I lost contact with Joyce Catherine (ph).

COLLINS: What is even going through your mind, in a moment like that, where you're on the phone with your son and his friends? I mean, I just couldn't imagine, it felt helpless, almost.

HEARTFIELD: It was helpless, and definitely, I was trying to get them to what I knew was safe ground and -- but, in the moment, it became very confusing and overwhelming. That was very apparent. And so, when I lost contact, I immediately got in the car and started five-hour drive to the Hill Country.

COLLINS: And when you got there, what did you see?

HEARTFIELD: So, it took -- I got there very close to 09:00, little bit after 09:00, and the water was still too high to enter into Hunt, Texas. So, I was unable to get there until about 07:00 p.m., when the water receded off of the highway. The home was completely missing from the slab. Just a clean slab. And there was an enormous cypress tree in the area, where I knew the kids were. So, it was definitely an horrific guessing.

COLLINS: What can you tell me about Aidan? What's he like?

HEARTFIELD: Aidan, he was a senior at Trinity University in San Antonio. He truly enjoyed the university, and the friends that he was making there. He is, I know every parent would brag about their kids, but Aidan is a very kind and gentle soul. And I know that -- that his spirit is motivating me to continue this search and stay strong, to organize these wonderful teams that are coming to our aid, and the aid of all the other victims of this flood.

COLLINS: Thad, I just, I can't even imagine how you feel tonight. I think every parent can understand that. And I just want to thank you so much for going out there, and doing that search, and for being willing to talk about it publicly.

HEARTFIELD: Yes, thank you. I've been -- I've been very fortunate and blessed to have the aid of -- you know, now I'm in my sixth day. I include the first two hours of searching by myself on the river banks, downstream of the home.

And since then, the overwhelming response that we've received is a volunteer showing up at my logistics meetings at 06:30 a.m. in the Kerrville Walmart parking lot. And I receive volunteers, people I don't know, family, friends that I do know, of numbers that swell from 70 to a 125. And I would not turn away a single volunteer who wants to assist in this search for my son and the other victims of this flood.

COLLINS: Thad, I just -- thank you so much for coming on, and to everyone who's helping you as well. And we hope that, that everyone continues to help you, and that you find Aidan.

HEARTFIELD: Thank you very much. Thanks for allowing me to be on the show for this reason. I appreciate it.

COLLINS: Thad Heartfield, thank you so much.

And we'll continue to monitor the latest on the ground, in Texas, and as the search, like Thad's, are continuing tonight from so many people for their loved ones.

Also, next here, we're going to check in on the ground, in Ukraine, as Russia is continuing to hit Kyiv with a wave of the attacks tonight, coming just hours after President Trump said that President Putin was full of BS, when it came to peace talks.

[21:30:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: We're following some breaking news, this hour, as Russia is attacking Ukraine's capital tonight, with CNN staff, in Kyiv, reporting in, a large amount of drone activity that is happening overhead and strong explosions throughout the city.

This is coming less than a day after Vladimir Putin launched Russia's largest drone attack yet across Ukraine, and that is saying something. We've been keeping a close eye on the new attacks and what they mean.

And it comes, as we're hearing, here in Washington tonight, as the Associated Press is reporting that the Trump administration has now resumed the flow of some weapons to Ukraine.

[21:35:00]

That comes earlier -- after earlier today, we heard from President Trump brushing off a follow-up question, about who exactly it was in his administration that was responsible for pausing some of those shipments of weapons to Ukraine, just last week.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHAWN MCCREESH, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, THE NEW YORK TIMES: You said that you were not sure who ordered the munitions halted to Ukraine. Have you since been able to figure that out?

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Well, I haven't thought about it, because we're looking at Ukraine, right now and munitions. But I have no -- I have not gotten into it.

MCCREESH: What does it say that such a big decision could be made, inside your government, without you knowing?

TRUMP: I would know. If a decision was made, I will know. I'll be the first to know. In fact, most likely, I'd give the order. But I haven't done that yet.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Now take what you heard there, and compare that to CNN reporting, which shows that the President was not made aware of this pause. And sources say that Defense Secretary, Pete Hegseth, didn't inform the White House, when he paused the shipments, causing a scramble inside the White House, when it was reported that he did.

As we're tracking all this tonight, my sources are:

The New York Times' David Sanger.

Former CNN Moscow Bureau Chief, Jill Dougherty.

And retired Air Force Colonel, Cedric Leighton.

And David, I want to start with you just first, on what we're seeing in terms of the attacks that are happening on Ukraine tonight, because this is coming, as the President is probably using some of his harshest language that we've seen yet, towards Putin, and towards Russia for the war in Ukraine.

DAVID SANGER, CNN POLITICAL & NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST, WHITE HOUSE AND NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT, THE NEW YORK TIMES, AUTHOR, "NEW COLD WARS": Harsh, Kaitlan, but a little late.

I mean, if you think about the arc of the past six months, since the President came in? For a while, he was blaming Zelenskyy for starting the war. That was an attack on Zelenskyy's territory, on Ukraine. Then, of course, the famous blow-up in the Oval Office. Then a refusal to say who was responsible for the war.

And now that he's feeling like he's being led along by Vladimir Putin, this -- and these angry comments.

But what's happened in that time period is that the U.S. provision of arms has lost momentum. They're sort of just sending out the last of the stuff that was approved by Congress and by the Biden administration. There's been no energy about putting new equipment out there. Even the shipments you just referred to, that sort of are tiny in numbers compared to what you're seeing happen, in Kyiv, tonight.

COLLINS: Jill, what do you make of this dynamic that we're seeing play out?

JILL DOUGHERTY, ADJUNCT PROFESSOR, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY, FORMER CNN MOSCOW BUREAU CHIEF, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I'm watching Putin. I think Putin is plowing straight ahead.

COLLINS: Trump's words are not stopping him.

DOUGHERTY: Obviously not stopping him. Because, look at tonight, and several times in the past week or so, where he has really unleashed horrible attacks, especially on Kyiv, which is the capital, which often wasn't hit previously.

But I think, Putin -- I watched what the Kremlin said. So, they basically brushed it off, and they said, Well, you know -- this is referring to the BS quote by the President and, I'm tired of Putin, that type of thing. They brushed it off and they said, Well, you know, he uses harsh language, and you know, we're taking it calmly. Calm was the word. But I just think it has really no effect right now.

What could have effect might be sanctions. But it's a long way to get there, still. And Putin, I think, is going to destroy as much and grab as much territory while he can.

COLLINS: Well, and that was David's colleague, Shawn McCreesh who was following up with the President, on who paused the shipment of weapons to Ukraine. We reported, after I asked the President that yesterday, that it was actually the Defense Secretary himself.

But for the Commander-in-Chief to not be aware of that, what does that say to you, especially for something that the President cares about so much?

COL. CEDRIC LEIGHTON (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST, U.S. AIR FORCE (RET.): Yes, Kaitlan, when I was at the Pentagon, you never did anything like this that had such political importance attached to it. You never did anything like that without the White House knowing about it.

And it's pretty clear to me that, in essence, what we have is a dysfunctional Pentagon that is working sometimes in concert, sometimes apparently opposed to a dysfunctional White House. They are not working in tandem. There is no specific policy goal in mind that they have.

The goal should be very simple, that Ukraine prevail. But they are not doing that. And that is, I think, the main problem here. They have every chance to take advantage of this, and to take advantage of what they did in Iran. But they're not doing that. And that's exactly what they should be doing from a position -- they could use this from a position of strength. But they're not doing this at this point in time.

SANGER: This is what happens when you lose process within the White House. Now, of course, they've diminished the National Security Council. We heard Secretary Rubio, who's sitting in as the National Security Advisor, say, the role of the National Security Council is to coordinate policy.

[21:40:00]

Well, that would be to do just what Cedric just described, which is to say, Do you want that -- those arms to go to Ukraine for an urgent need? Do you want to hold on to them for possible use in the Middle East, or to help defend Taiwan in the future? And that's the kind of weighing that can only happen, through a process of debating it out, through the National Security Council. That process is gone. And so, that's why you get surprised.

COLLINS: Well, and it just, it reminds me, for everyone, in terms of the bigger picture here, when it comes to the Defense Secretary himself, who was seated right next to the President yesterday. The President did not turn to him on that matter.

When Signalgate was happening, and their group chat had been released that they were talking about war plan -- attack plans in there, Pete Hegseth was going on TV and defending himself, and it was upsetting White House people. They didn't like the fact that he was going on TV. They didn't think it was becoming of the Defense Secretary.

And it just kind of speaks to the chaos that has continued between the White House and the Pentagon, that doesn't seem to have changed, in light of that. And I wonder what that tells you, and how Putin sees that, how Moscow sees that and tries to take advantage of it, if they do?

DOUGHERTY: Well, they may be more confused than we think. I mean, I tend to think they kind of watch what's going on. But I think this is confusing for anyone, even people who are in the know, like, there is no process, as you said.

So, what does Putin do, in looking at the United States, if there is no process? It actually might make him in this -- well, it would make him happy, because there's no process. But it might be a little unpredictable, too. The Russians often play on the United States as the adult in the room. They'll -- they ultimately won't do crazy things. But now they're kind of doing crazy things.

So, I think Putin's approach is to watch it play out. I mean, he doesn't have to do much to really interfere in the United States right now, because we're doing a very good job, ourselves, so.

COLLINS: Well, and in terms of that, I mean, when it came to Pete Hegseth getting confirmed on Capitol Hill, I want you to listen to what a retiring Republican senator, who did vote to confirm Pete Hegseth, told Jake Tapper today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. THOM TILLIS (R-NC): I think it's clear he's out of his depth as a manager of a large, complex organization. And so--

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that was your reaction to the Signalgate situation.

TILLIS: Well, that's just one. I mean, this whole idea of having a pause in Ukraine defensive arms--

TAPPER: Right.

TILLIS: --that's just amateurish. I mean, that's from somebody who doesn't understand large organization dynamics.

So, you know, I don't regret the decision I made, back then, based on the facts as I knew them today -- then. But today, I am beginning to wonder if maybe Armed Services was a little bit generous with respect to their assessment of his capabilities as a manager of the world's largest, most complex and, arguably, consequential organization.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEIGHTON: Yes. Well, it's pretty clear to me, even as Hegseth was being confirmed, that he was not up to the job. And it's amazing to me that it's taken Senator Tillis, and others, so long to get to that point. He did not -- does not -- he, by his own admission, he did not know military strategy.

And this is the kind of thing that you get into, when you manage an organization like the Pentagon, or try to manage an organization like the Pentagon, and you don't know the ins and outs of doing so, or the people that you're supposed to be managing it with National Security Council, for example, the Secretary of State. All of those things become key players here. And failure to do that is a real problem.

COLLINS: Colonel Cedric Leighton. Jill Dougherty. David Sanger. It's so great to have all of your expertise here on this as we're watching this situation play out in real-time.

Also, up next for us today, the CEO of X, most of you know it as Twitter, Linda Yaccarino has announced that she is leaving. She was formerly a top lieutenant of Elon Musk's. He had a five-word response. We'll talk about that next, with Kara Swisher.

[21:45:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: Tonight, one of Elon Musk's top lieutenants and the Chief Executive of X, Linda Yaccarino, announced that she is stepping down after two years on the job.

Yaccarino did not provide a reason for why she is leaving. But her high-profile exit caps quite a turbulent period, and it comes months after Musk sold X to xAI, his artificial intelligence company, in an unusual move.

And her departure also comes one day after the company's chatbot, which is known as Grok, started posting extremely antisemitic comments, including praising Adolf Hitler, and saying that who is controlling the government is the, quote, Million dollar question.

Yaccarino's tenure saw PR crisis after PR crisis, a mass exodus of users, and also sinking revenue, and Elon Musk's countless controversial posts.

My source tonight is the veteran tech journalist, Kara Swisher, who has interviewed Linda Yaccarino.

And Kara, I just wonder, first off, what you make of--

KARA SWISHER, CNN CONTRIBUTOR, HOST, "ON WITH KARA SWISHER" & "PIVOT" PODCASTS: Yes.

COLLINS: --of what happened here. Because Yaccarino put out this pretty lengthy post about her job.

SWISHER: Yes.

COLLINS: Musk, in turn, had a pretty curt response. He said, Thank you for your contributions.

SWISHER: I didn't see that. OK. All right. Well, Thanks, thanks, don't let the door hit you on the way out, I think.

[21:50:00]

She was -- we had said for a while ago, we've been talking about her leaving, especially after xAI merged with X. That effectively demoted her.

And she had -- there had been questions of who was really running X, which was Elon Musk, and he did all manner of things to mess up her ability to attract advertisers back, including telling advertisers to go F themselves, if you remember, and a number of other controversial things. Today's -- this week's thing is just one of the latest.

But this has been in the -- in the offing for a while, for lots of reasons. Threads is starting to get as big as X, for example, and that's from Meta. She couldn't attract advertisers back without a lot of pressure, including lawsuits, which was sort of tarnishing her very good reputation when she started -- before she was at X.

And the only thing they really did have in common, because they're very different styles, was their admiration for Donald Trump at the time. And so, they were hand in glove on that one. But then this recent breakup, of course, caused problems, I'm assuming, internally.

COLLINS: Yes, I mean, she was one of the most highly-respected executives. Of course, when she went in, it was seen as a huge get, and question of what that was going to look like.

And Musk has been in the headlines -- it is a lot. But he has been for the last several days, when it comes to his relationship with the President and the White House.

We actually heard from someone, we don't often hear from. That's the Chief of Staff, Susie Wiles, publicly. And she talked about her view of this dynamic that's playing out between Musk and Trump. This is what she said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SUSIE WILES, WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF: It was a great thing when it was a great thing, and -- and had a very, I think, a very troublesome ending.

MIRANDA DEVINE, HOST, "POD FORCE ONE WITH MIRANDA DEVINE" PODCAST: Why do you think that happened?

WILES: I don't know.

DEVINE: Yes.

WILES: I don't understand it. I don't know.

DEVINE: And do you think he got, I don't know, jealous, because he wasn't getting Donald Trump's full attention? Or was it something else?

WILES: No, that doesn't sound like -- like Elon. I don't know.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Do you think the White House should have seen this coming?

SWISHER: Oh, I think they -- I don't think she -- I don't know. I think she knew. I think she was part of it.

I think the whole group of them had gotten tired of Elon, for lots of reasons. And he had outstayed his welcome, as you well know, from dealing with anyone down at Mar-a-Lago. Even I got complaints about him and asked what to do about him.

So, I don't think that's -- I don't -- I'm not sure she's telling. Well, whatever. Whatever. That's what she's saying.

In any case, I mean, I think the problem is, Elon's a very volatile person. And so, Linda just didn't -- wasn't able to bring back advertising to Twitter in quite the same way that he wanted. And by the way, I don't think he's even interested in Twitter as an advertising platform. He has other reasons for owning it, including influence and data.

So, I think it just -- there wasn't room for her, and she had been demoted, and the xAI people are running that company, and it will continue to--

COLLINS: Yes.

SWISHER: --get smaller and smaller, and advertisers don't want to be on an unsafe platform. That's really pretty much it.

COLLINS: Can I ask you, just before we go?

SWISHER: Sure.

COLLINS: One person that Musk feuded with, in the Cabinet, was the Transportation Secretary, Sean Duffy. And Trump announced tonight that he is going to be the Interim Administrator over at NASA.

SWISHER: Yes.

COLLINS: For people who don't remember, that was a role that Musk fought very hard to fill, and ultimately lost out on before he left the White House.

SWISHER: Yes, someone he was affiliated with. Jared. That's got to hurt, I mean, obviously.

I mean, Musk does know a lot about space, and I don't think Sean Duffy does. So, that's got to hurt Musk in many ways. Especially making it a secondary job, therefore the focus is away from NASA, after all those promises and going to Mars, and other things. So that's going to be a very difficult relationship, going forward, given how much business SpaceX does with NASA. So, we'll see where that goes.

COLLINS: Yes, certainly we will.

Kara Swisher, thank you.

SWISHER: Thanks.

COLLINS: Up next. The President has also threatened steep new tariffs on a country today, if it doesn't immediately end a trial against its former President, even though that country has quite a surplus with the United States. That's ahead.

[21:55:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: We're back with three things you may have missed tonight.

We start with some breaking news, as the Secret Service has issued suspensions tonight, for several agents, who were involved in securing the Pennsylvania rally, last year, when then-candidate Donald Trump was shot in the ear by a would-be assassin. That's according to multiple sources, telling CNN that tonight.

At least two of those agents are appealing their suspensions, these sources with knowledge told CNN, and no Secret Service employees have served their suspension yet. Several agents at the Service's Pittsburgh field office, along with one agent on the President's detail that day, and a counter sniper, have been issued suspensions, ranging from a few weeks to over a month, according to the sources familiar with this process.

Also tonight, President Trump is threatening 50 percent tariffs on Brazil by August 1st, if the country does not immediately end its trial against the former President, Jair Bolsonaro. Yes, Brazil, which the United States, ran a trade surplus of $7.4 billion with, in 2024.

Now, in a letter, posted to his website, Truth Social, the President declared the trial a, quote, "Witch Hunt." Bolsonaro is facing trial for allegedly trying to stage a coup against the current Brazilian leader.

[22:00:00]

And finally, at the White House today, the President praised the Liberian President for his ability to speak English. The thing is, Liberia's official language is English.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PRES. JOSEPH BOAKAI, LIBERIA: We just want to thank you so much for this opportunity. TRUMP: Well, thank you. And such good English, such -- beautiful.

BOAKAI: Yes, sir.

TRUMP: Where did you--

BOAKAI: You know--

TRUMP: Where did you learn to speak so beautifully?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: One Liberian diplomat responded to that, and they asked not to be named. They told CNN, that they felt that comment was not appropriate.

Thanks for joining us.

"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts now.