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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Trump: "Stupid Republicans" Want Release Of Epstein Files; Trump Says Firing Powell "Highly Unlikely" But Won't Rule It Out; Adelita Grijalva Wins Dem Primary For Late Father's House Seat. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired July 16, 2025 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: --well, the Obamas have been married for nearly 33 years.
That's it for us. The news continues. I'll see you, tomorrow. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Tonight, President Trump lashes out, at his own MAGA-faithful, disavowing their support.
And Senator Elizabeth Warren will join me live, amid the presidential whiplash when it comes to firing or not firing the Fed Chair.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
Stupid, weaklings, foolish and selfish. Those may be terms that President Trump typically uses about his enemies. But today, in the Oval Office, those attacks were directed at many of the very people who helped put him back in the White House.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: It's all been a big hoax. It's perpetrated by the Democrats. And some stupid Republicans and foolish Republicans fall into the net, and so they try and do the Democrats' work.
They're wasting their time with a guy who obviously had some very serious problems, who died three, four years ago. I mean, you see it. Instead, they want to talk about the Epstein hoax. And the sad part is, it's people that are really doing the Democrats' work, they're stupid people.
And all it is, is the Republicans -- certain Republicans got duped by the Democrats, and they're following a Democrat playbook, and no different when -- than Russia, Russia, Russia, and all the other hoaxes. They're started by the Democrats. And some Republicans, in this case, I was surprised, but they got duped.
I've lost a lot of faith in certain people, and yes, I'd lost, because they got duped by the Democrats. (END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Trump didn't stop there. The President also vented that his, quote, "PAST supporters have bought into this "bullshit," hook, line, and sinker," and then he said he doesn't want their support anymore.
That anger is coming from a president who is only facing growing calls, like these.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEVE BANNON, FORMER TRUMP ADVISER: It's not about just a pedophile ring and all that. This is about who governs us, right? And that's why it's not going to go away.
RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER TRUMP ATTORNEY: I think it still exists on Epstein, and I think they're -- I think we are going to see it, and I think they're struggling with.
MIKE PENCE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think the time has come for the administration to release all of the files regarding Jeffrey Epstein.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: That is his former chief strategist, former lawyer, and even his former vice president, three people who seem to believe there's more to be said about this. People that, according to the President, have been conned by the lunatic left.
By his own standards, that includes his largest campaign donor, Elon Musk, whom Trump handed unprecedented access to the federal government. And his former National Security Advisor, Michael Flynn, who posted a long plea online, saying that the President's argument, quote, "Went off the rails" here.
And beyond the political impact of attacking your own base, what we are seeing is the sitting president say that he lost faith in people who got duped, which would ostensibly include those who still surround him, right now, in the federal government.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JD VANCE (R), U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: Seriously, we need to release the Epstein list. That is an important thing.
PAM BONDI, UNITED STATES ATTORNEY GENERAL: It's sitting on my desk right now to review.
KASH PATEL, FBI DIRECTOR: Put on your big boy pants, and let us know who the pedophiles are.
DAN BONGINO, FBI DEPUTY DIRECTOR: Listen, that Jeffrey Epstein story is a big deal.
ALINA HABBA, U.S. ATTORNEY: You can't have, you know, pedophiles running amok and nobody -- people protecting them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: That was the current Vice President, the Attorney General, the FBI Director, the Deputy FBI Director, and the new U.S. Attorney for New Jersey.
And as for those that the President labeled stupid Republicans today, some of them are his biggest supporters on Capitol Hill.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): You need to have all of the credible information released for the American people to make their decision.
SEN. JOSH HAWLEY (R-MO): The idea that DOJ and the FBI who've prosecuted cases relating to this, don't have any idea who Epstein's clients were, and that he had no record of it, of the clients? I don't know, it's kind of hard to believe.
SEN. THOM TILLIS (R-NC): I have to disagree with the President. I don't think human trafficking of young teenage girls being exploited by billionaires on a private island is boring.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: While the President is lashing out at his own supporters for buying into the Epstein conspiracy theories, he himself seemed to have no trouble just throwing things out there, as he was gearing up to announce his first run for president.
[21:05:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEAN HANNITY, FOX NEWS HOST: Bill Clinton.
TRUMP: Nice guy. Got a lot of problems coming up, in my opinion, with the famous island, with Jeffrey Epstein. Lot of problems.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You raised the question of Jeffrey Epstein, in your remarks about -- in the Q&A with Sean.
TRUMP: Yes, I think he's got a problem. I mean, I'm--
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do you think the problem will be?
TRUMP: I don't know, but that island was really a cesspool. There's no question about it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My lead source tonight is The New York Times White House correspondent, and the Author of "Confidence Man: The Making of Donald Trump and the Breaking of America," Maggie Haberman.
And Maggie, it's great to have you here.
I should note, on that last sound bite there, Clinton has denied any wrongdoing and has not been linked to any of Epstein's crimes.
But I wonder, when you see a comment like that, from a decade ago, the President's talk about this being a Democratic hoax doesn't seem to hold a lot of water tonight, even with his own supporters.
MAGGIE HABERMAN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, THE NEW YORK TIMES, AUTHOR, "CONFIDENCE MAN": Well, what seems to be -- look, that Truth Social post that he did this morning was extremely confusing.
And it's very clear what -- you know, he is trying to suggest, you know, backfill this, essentially, that anybody who raises questions about this now, that it was some kind of a setup by Democrats or by Obama, even though Jeffrey Epstein -- or Joe Biden, even though Jeffrey Epstein died in jail when Donald Trump was president last time. I mean, there is a reason that you are seeing people like Mike Flynn say, This just doesn't make sense. It simply doesn't.
You are correct that a decade ago, President Trump was more than happy to raise questions of guilt by association for the Clintons. This was something that his advisers talked about, that his allies talked about.
Has he talked about Jeffrey Epstein as much in the interregnum period between his two presidencies, as some of his top advisers have? No. But he has populated his administration with people who really made names, talking about this. And to now say it doesn't matter? You are seeing an emboldened Congress, to some extent, calling him out for saying these things.
COLLINS: I wonder what you make of that.
Because one thing he has made clear is he wants people to stop talking about this. He wants this to stop being a story. And you're seeing the right-wing influencers that he's calling, or like some of his most ardent members in Congress, most ardent supporters, say they still want to hear more.
I wonder what you make of that, when typically they fall in line with what he says.
HABERMAN: I think there's a couple of things at play, Kaitlan. I mean, I think one is, he is a lame duck. I mean, part of why he has tried to hold on to his party, so tightly, since he took office again, was to get things done.
He saw what happened in term one, when members of his own party were rising against him on various fronts. And so he wanted to pass the one big, beautiful bill. And there were other pieces, you know -- there were -- there were other things he wanted to accomplish. And generally, he has scared members of his party into not speaking out if they were upset with it, or people supported what he was doing. Now, you're seeing things -- like Thom Tillis, who you just played a quote from, from North Carolina. He's not running again. And so, he clearly feels emboldened to speak out. Marjorie Taylor Greene has been speaking out more and more. You may see others. I think time will tell. But it is definitely a notable shift since he came back.
COLLINS: Yes, I mean, when it comes to Trump trying to move off the story. I want you to listen to what he said in the Oval Office, where he himself was basically trying to say, It's time to move on from this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I call it the Epstein hoax. Takes a lot of time and effort. Instead of talking about the great achievements we've had.
Instead of talking about the things we've achieved. We've had tremendous achievement.
The scandal you should be talking about is the autopen.
The things that they should be talking about. The big, beautiful bill is one of the greatest pieces of legislation ever in this country.
All these things that happened that wouldn't have happened if you had good leadership, and that's what you should be talking about.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Maggie, as you know, the President is typically pretty good at changing the narrative when he -- when he wants to, or putting something else out there. Does your reporting show, are you surprised that he's struggling to change it in a way that he typically has not?
HABERMAN: I think this one, Kaitlan -- a couple of things.
Number one, Jeffrey Epstein has been a mainstream story for a long time. There were a lot of people who covered issues related to Jeffrey Epstein, and the crimes that he committed. He was in prison. His death was very well-covered when President Trump was in office the first time. So, number one, it's not just a story that takes place, on the internet. This takes place across the board.
Number two, you are seeing his allies, advisers, supporters, who have gone out there and talked about this, and who, I think, believed that they had his support on this, getting questioned by their own base. And so, this is sort of a story of a question of, who do you trust? And that is very clear in what he's saying.
[21:10:00]
It's hard to tell people -- I mean, again, I said this earlier, about his Truth Social post. It strains credibility to suggest that this was -- you know, I call this a hoax, and therefore it's a hoax. People are clearly feeling, as if for their own reasons, whether it is because of the people who listen to their podcasts, or because of their voters in the midterms, that they need to make clear that they don't agree with him.
COLLINS: Lastly, we also learned tonight that James Comey's daughter who, Maurene Comey, who is a prosecutor in Manhattan, successfully, was working on the -- had worked on the cases of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. She's been fired abruptly. Our sense is that she wasn't given a specific reason.
Do you believe that that's related to what's happening right now? What's your sense of that?
HABERMAN: It's hard to ignore the fact that she was involved in some of the cases involving Jeffrey Epstein. Time will tell whether this was the reason why, whether folks suggest that she had something to do with that. As you say, she apparently was not given a specific reason. And Article II was cited, as you know, under the powers of Article II and the Executive branch, she was dismissed.
The President has obviously no love for James Comey. But this would potentially feed into a line of what he is trying to allege as some broader effort that's separate from him.
COLLINS: Yes.
Maggie Haberman, excellent reporting, as always. Thanks for joining me.
HABERMAN: Thanks, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: Up next, my other inside sources.
Politico's White House Bureau Chief, Dasha Burns.
And CNN's Senior Correspondent, Donie O'Sullivan.
And it's great to have you both here to just get your perspective on this.
Donie, I kind of just would like for you to walk us through this. Because, I think, one question that some people have is given Trump himself has peddled conspiracy theories before, what you make of the surprise he has at how attached to this, the people who support him the most are and are not willing to let it go, just because he says, Stop talking about this.
DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Kaitlan, it's, I mean, it's absolutely shocking for them. It really is shocking.
And I was trying to think of this today, in terms of, in MAGA media, there are many conspiracy theories, and objects of fascination come and go. But every day, pretty much, for years, you'll always hear people on those channels, on those platforms, talk about two things. One is the false claim that the 2020 election was stolen. They are still talking and obsessing about that. And secondly, is the Epstein files and everything to do with that.
So, Trump coming out and saying, Just forget about this, I think, is such so much of a shock, that it would be equivalent of him coming out and admitting that the 2020 election wasn't stolen, and that conspiracy theory was a hoax.
Look, Trump is obviously a master manipulator of media, of social media. And either he is sort of playing dumb here, and hoping that this Epstein stuff goes away, or maybe he just genuinely doesn't fully grasp how much he has stoked the conspiracy theory space online, for years.
I mean, I remember a couple of weeks before the 2020 election, he did an NBC News Town Hall, he refused to disavow QAnon then. And since then Media Matters, the liberal watchdog group, said that he has posted more than a 1,000 times on Truth Social, amplifying QAnon accounts.
And so, every time people see those sort of accounts, they view that, rightly or wrongly, but they view that as him endorsing this conspiracy theory, or Epstein files, all that sort of stuff. So, that is why this is such a big deal for them.
COLLINS: Yes, I mean, and Dasha, White House officials seem stunned that this is still a massive story and seems to be only growing. I wonder what you're hearing from sources tonight.
DASHA BURNS, WHITE HOUSE BUREAU CHIEF, POLITICO, HOST, PLAYBOOK'S "THE CONVERSATION WITH DASHA BURNS": I mean, this is new for them.
This is really new for Trump. He is not used to not being able to control the news cycle, to change the narrative, to turn the tables. It's usually folks from the opposition that are attacking him, so he either welcomes it and wears it as a badge of honor, or somehow flips it around on them.
And this is his base, like he's not used to being able to fully direct their attentions, their energies and their passion. So, they're really on a backfoot here, and I think this is why they're having such a hard time navigating this, because they've gotten attacks from the other side before. They have never seen an uprising like this.
And for the people in Trump's camp that are elected officials or influencers, they are stuck between the President and his base. That is a tough place to be, because those are the two things that they are most afraid of, and I don't know which one wins out in the end.
[21:15:00]
COLLINS: Yes, and Donie, when it comes to what the MAGA base wants here. What exactly is it that they want uncovered? Is it just names that Jeffrey Epstein had in his -- in terms of contacts? Or, what is it exactly that they're searching for here, and hoping that Pam Bondi releases from the Justice Department?
O'SULLIVAN: Yes, I mean, it ranges. But frankly, they're expecting what they were told to expect from people in Trump's orbit for years, right? They want accountability. I mean, for many of them, they were sort of led to believe that what is in those files, or what's imagined to be the files, is stuff that would incriminate Democrats. That was a big part of the fascination here.
I think one other thing to mention here is that, Trump is trying to have it both ways, in terms of, obviously, on a daily basis, he attacks the press, and says, you know, that they're failing and whatnot. But he clearly, obviously cares a lot about what the press says.
But, talking about that the press is fanning the flames of this? I mean, frankly, they don't need the press to do this, because even we saw yesterday, when Speaker Johnson came out speaking about this, he spoke to Benny Johnson, another MAGA media influencer.
So, I mean, that's the other thing I find interesting here, is Trump's understanding of the media. I'm not sure he fully grasps just how powerful that MAGA media-verse is, that they essentially can usurp the mainstream media sometimes, and force things into national conversation.
COLLINS: Well, also it shows what the President's media diet is, which is major newspapers and cable news television. He may not be seeing it in the same way--
O'SULLIVAN: Yes.
COLLINS: --that that it is so prolific on, on these podcasts, on these right-wing shows.
Dasha, even on X, formerly known as Twitter. I mean, Elon Musk is someone who won, claimed that Trump was in the Epstein files, and that's why they didn't want them released. But he has been going off on this, and saying, pulling and highlighting all the past statements from these officials that he worked with, and showing what he says is the hypocrisy here.
BURNS: Oh man, this is the other major thorn in their side. And as I've talked to folks in and around the White House, nobody thought that the Elon Musk breakup would look like this, sound like this, would be this damaging to the President.
They always thought Elon Musk and the President, while people might see them as equals in money, and in influence. And instead, with the base, President Trump is always going to have the upper hand. But here, Elon Musk has found this opening, this thorn in the side of the White House, and he is just going to keep pressing that button, it seems.
COLLINS: Yes, we're obviously seeing that continue to be a major factor here.
Donie. Dasha. Great to have you both.
Up next here for us. Hear what the President had to say when he was asked today, about whether or not he was going to appoint a special counsel to look into the Jeffrey Epstein case.
And also, the Department of Justice fired a federal prosecutor in Manhattan that I just mentioned, Maurene Comey, whose father is James Comey. What we know more that we're learning this hour about that, next.
[21:20:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, in the face of MAGA fury, over his administration's handling of the Jeffrey Epstein files, President Trump says he is open to the FBI looking into what he is calling the Jeffrey Epstein hoax, framing what's behind the MAGA revolt as a scam that he says is being pushed by Democrats.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All the things that happened in 2020, not investigating China interference in the 2020 election. Where do you think, what are the things are most important that you would like to see the FBI get to the bottom of?
TRUMP: I think they could look at all of it. It's all the same scam. They could look at this Jeffrey Epstein hoax also. Because that's the same stuff that's all put out by Democrats.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
TRUMP: And you know, some of the naive Republicans fall right into line, like they always do.
They ought to look into the Jeffrey Epstein hoax too. Because that's another hoax that's frankly, put out by the Demo -- pushing -- pushing the Republicans, and put out by the Democrats.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: As he was leaving the East Room, earlier today, after a bill signing, the President was asked by our enterprising producer, DJ Judd, whether or not he'd consider appointing a special counsel here.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD (DJ) JUDD, CNN WHITE HOUSE PRODUCER: President Trump, would you consider appointing a special counsel to investigate the Jeffrey Epstein investigation?
TRUMP: I have nothing to do with it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My sources tonight:
The New York Times' Zolan Kanno-Youngs.
And former Deputy Assistant Attorney General, Tom Dupree. Tom, can I ask you on the calls that we're seeing. I mean, you heard from the President there, to DJ, saying he wouldn't have anything to do with that. What would a special counsel even do here?
TOM DUPREE, FORMER DEPUTY ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL: Well, that's a great question. And look, frankly, I'm not sure a special counsel would do a heck of a lot.
What we need right now is not more investigation. It's not more prosecution. It is releasing the information and evidence that the prosecutors and investigators have already collected. That is what is top of mind of so many people in America, not just Democrats, but President Trump's own supporters.
[21:25:00]
I'm not sure a special counsel would do much, other than just kick the can down the road, delay the process, maybe get people's attention off the immediate need for release of this evidence. But as far as advancing the ball, and getting this information out into the public sphere, I think a special counsel, frankly, would be more of a hindrance than anything else.
COLLINS: Well, and Zolan, we keep hearing though from Republican lawmakers, some of these MAGA influencers who are upset about this, saying a special counsel should get involved. Obviously, you heard the President there, saying that it wouldn't be his to decide.
Listen to what else though he had to say tonight, in terms of whether or not he feels it would even be warranted.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One big prosecutor look at it all, would that make you feel good, do you think?
TRUMP: Well, I think it's -- in the case of Epstein, they've already looked at it, and they are looking at it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
TRUMP: And I think all they have to do is put out anything credible.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
TRUMP: But you know, that was run by the Biden administration for four years. I can imagine what they put into files, just like they did with the others.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I mean, Zolan, when I listen to that, and I don't know what you've heard, but from what we've heard from -- from sources inside the administration, this does not seem like it's headed for a special counsel as of this moment at all. ZOLAN KANNO-YOUNGS, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes, at this point, I also don't have indication of that from the reporting. I do think it's worth also just true-squatting (ph) the response that the President had to DJ as well, saying, I have nothing to do with it.
As we know through reporting, the President did install loyalists throughout this Justice Department. There have been previous instances, where he himself has called for special counsel to investigate various grievances, including his claims about the previous election. So, he does have -- this is his administration, right, and he does have ownership of this.
Overall, what we're seeing at this point, the President facing these questions? His Republican allies, calling for additional scrutiny of this issue as well? It's really almost, the result of what has been a long period of the President's allies really raising expectations on this issue. That goes back to the presidential campaign.
When you bring in somebody, who had a podcast and was talking about the Epstein issue, and bring him into a top position in the FBI, you know? When you have the Director of the FBI, who has also stoked the flames of a conspiracy theory around this issue? You've -- they -- many of the President's allies, use this issue to energize the base. You also had A.G. Bondi as well raise those expectations. And now we're seeing the ramifications of that, the ramifications of those raised expectations.
COLLINS: Yes, exactly that they're answering for in their own words.
Zolan, great to have you. Tom Dupree, as well. Thank you both for being here.
Up next. Joining us is Senator Elizabeth Warren. What she makes of the mixed messages that we saw today, on whether the President is preparing to fire the Fed chair, Jay Powell.
[21:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: One major question tonight that is still unclear is whether or not the President is preparing to fire, or at least attempt to fire, the Chairman of the Federal Reserve.
It's clear, the President has wanted Jerome Powell out, and has repeatedly called on him to quit his job. But then CNN confirmed, last night, that the President gestured to a letter, during a meeting that he had with House Republicans, at the White House, that was a draft of Powell's termination notice, should the President choose to use it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Are you completely ruling out the idea of firing Jerome Powell?
TRUMP: I don't rule out anything, but I think it's highly unlikely unless he has to leave for fraud. I mean, it's possible there's fraud involved with the $2.5 -- $2.7 billion renovation.
REPORTER: Have you drafted a letter?
TRUMP: No, I haven't drafted a letter.
REPORTER: So you didn't show a letter to Republican lawmakers last night?
TRUMP: No, I talked about the concept of firing him. I said, What do you think? Almost every one of them said I should. But I'm more conservative than they are.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Trump said he is unlikely to fire him, after suggesting that he might.
And that fraud caveat that you heard there, it's part of this new campaign we're seeing from the White House, against Powell, being waged by Trump officials, accusing him of potentially lying to Congress, during his testimony regarding the building renovations over at the Fed, where Powell denied the extravagant changes that they accused him of.
My source tonight has a lot of thoughts about that, I'm sure. Democratic senator, Elizabeth Warren of Massachusetts is here with me.
And it's great to have you, Senator.
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D-MA): Thank you.
COLLINS: When you hear and see what the White House is doing, do you believe that he is creating a pretext to fire Jay Powell, or at least try to?
WARREN: Look, Donald Trump has been trying to figure out how to fire Jay Powell for months now, and he hasn't been subtle about it. In fact, he has said he was going to do it, back in March, and then when it tanked the markets, he suddenly reeled that back in.
He doesn't have legal authority to do it. But more importantly, the markets know that the Fed is supposed to be independent, and want to leave it that way. So, I think what's going on here is, is there an end run?
[21:35:00]
And look, I want oversight. I believe in oversight. I believe in transparency. I think it's perfectly reasonable to take a look at the expenses, when the Fed has renovated this 90-year-old building. All of that is really important. But, give me a break. All of us know what a pretext looks like, and this certainly quacks like a pretext.
COLLINS: So, you're saying this notion, because they've been renovating that building since 2021--
WARREN: Yes.
COLLINS: --it's over-budget. I mean, you're saying there's legitimate concerns about that, but not enough to warrant the firing of the Fed chair?
WARREN: Look, let's take a look. Obviously, you always want to look at the information. I push for full transparency.
But Donald Trump can't say over and over and over and over, I want to fire him. I want to fire him. I want to fire him. Can't somebody figure out how to fire him? And then, suddenly say, I'm really interested in seeing the receipts for painting and plumbing in the repairs of a 90-year-old building. He's looking, it would appear, that he is looking for a pretext to get rid of Jerome Powell.
And I just want to remind you here why this matters. The President has the capacity to fire everybody in his Cabinet. That's the setup. But he does not have the legal authority to fire the Chairman of the Fed. The Fed is supposed to be independent. The terms run for five years. They don't run concurrency with -- concurrent with presidential terms.
And the idea is that the Fed will be an economist, a banker, somebody who will look at the hard data, and try to make the best decisions that he or she possibly can, about monetary policy and about regulatory oversight. There is insulation for a reason.
And ultimately, around the world, people depend on the independence of the Fed. And you know how I know that? Because the last time that Donald Trump flirted very aggressively with firing Jerome Powell, the bond market tanked.
And the reason for that is because that was all the people -- what the bond market is really about is people around the world, saying, If things get really scary, do we go to the United States as a place to protect our money? And what investors were saying is, Not the United States, because Donald Trump wants control of the Fed.
So, this isn't about whether interest rates should go up or should go down. This isn't about whether there should be more regulation or less regulation of the bank. This is about whether or not Donald Trump gets to control the Fed, the same way he controls every other part of government. And the answer here is no, he does not. And if he tries, he will bring down the U.S. financial markets.
COLLINS: You think it will bring down the U.S. financial markets if he--
WARREN: Yes.
COLLINS: --if he ousts Jay Powell?
WARREN: Yes, I do. I do. Because he will then be saying that decisions about interest rates in the United States will not be based on the economics. They will be based on politics. He will be saying that whatever is happening on the regulatory front, which banks get investigated, will not be done, on the economics, on the financials. It will be done on politics.
And that means we will lose one more piece of the financial structure that makes the United States economy, the envy of the world, and Donald Trump is just hacking away at that. And what you have to remember here is why he's hacking away. He's hacking away at it, because he wants Jerome Powell to lower those interest rates for political reasons.
Donald Trump is creating a lot of trouble in this economy. The tariff chaos is starting to drive prices up, and it's causing businesses not to invest. Donald Trump and the Republicans just passed a bill that is going to blow a $4 trillion addition to the federal debt, and they're trying to de-regulate right and left, shut down the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, ease back on the too-big-to-fail banks.
COLLINS: Yes.
WARREN: Each one of those things puts more risk into the economy. The three of them together, multiply those risks. Donald Trump is trying to juice the economy by getting interest rates down. He doesn't get to control the Fed, and that is not going to help us long term, with the economy.
COLLINS: Yes. And of course, they're arguing the inflation numbers are proof that -- that come out, that they should be lowering rates. But can I just ask you on--
WARREN: Sure.
COLLINS: --you mentioned the term of the Fed chair. And obviously, this is Jay Powell's second term. Trump today expressed surprise about him being appointed to this job, even though it was Trump who appointed him.
I just want people to listen to what the President said today. But then what also he said in 2017 when he had handpicked Powell to take this job.
[21:40:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: He's a terrible -- he's a terrible Fed chair. I was surprised he was appointed. I was surprised, frankly, that Biden put him in, and extended him. But they did.
Accordingly, it is my pleasure and my honor to announce my nomination of Jerome Powell to be the next Chairman of the Federal Reserve.
I am confident that with Jay, as a wise steward of the Federal Reserve, it will have the leadership it needs in the years to come.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: What's it like for you to hear that now?
WARREN: I just -- I just want to point out, I voted against Jerome Powell to be Fed chair. I think I was the only person, on the Banking Committee, to vote against him, when Donald Trump nominated him. I argued against President Biden renominating him for a second term. And yet, I'm here today to say that Fed independence matters.
The fact that Donald Trump can't even remember that he's the one, who picked him, to begin with, and talked about his qualifications, and how good he would be in this job, is just one more reminder that we know what's going on with these nominees.
Every one of them gets picked just for loyalty to Donald Trump. I've watched one after another come through the United States Senate for confirmation, and the only question is, Are you loyal to Donald Trump? And they say, Yes, they are. What will you do? I will do whatever Donald Trump wants me to do.
OK, if you're Secretary of Education. I may not like it, but at least that's the deal. OK if you're Secretary of Defense. But not for the Fed chairman. The Fed chairman is supposed to be independent, and that helps strengthen our financial system.
But for Donald Trump, anyone who doesn't bend the knee to Donald Trump is effectively a threat, an enemy, and somebody he wants to get rid of, and that's what's going on right now. And Donald Trump knows there would be real risk to actually firing him. So, he's trying to find ways around that. And so far, he hasn't. But--
COLLINS: Yes.
WARREN: But make no mistake, Kaitlan, there is a cost to what Donald Trump is doing. Because, he creates more chaos, he creates more uncertainty in the financial system. And just like he does with the tariffs, that chaos, that uncertainty, it scares off investors, it depresses making the real investments, going forward, in this economy--
COLLINS: Yes.
WARREN: --that we need to make.
COLLINS: Well, I just wonder, because we always have Democrats on, and they talk about what Trump's doing. We ask, What are you doing to push back, as a Democrat? Obviously, you're the minority.
I thought it was interesting, you have a bill, that is -- you're introducing, that aims to put guardrails on donations to presidential libraries.
WARREN: Yes.
COLLINS: I should note that, I'm asking you about that, as tonight, the President is dining with the Qataris at the White House after, of course, they're giving him the plane. I wonder what your expectations are for that. WARREN: So, look, we've had a problem before Donald Trump came along, with presidents taking donations to their presidential library, while they're still sitting in office, and while they can still offer pardons, or cut tariff deals, or approve mergers.
It's just that Donald Trump has now just put that on steroids, with the $400 airplane -- $400 million airplane from the Qataris, with the settlement of the Paramount -- Paramount bogus lawsuit. And who knows how much other money is being funneled right now into a future Trump library. Because, there are no rules.
There's no rules about having to disclose that money, no caps on disclosing it, and no limits on who can do it. Foreign governments, people seeking pardons, anybody can make these contributions.
So, the bill that I introduced, and I've got a group of co-sponsors around this, including Senator Blumenthal, here in the Senate, the bill that I've introduced just says, We got to put some limits on this, and say that, while you're still president, you can't be out there, soliciting or accepting funds from people for your future library. We got to -- we got to have just some sensible safeguards in place.
And here's what's interesting. Couple of years ago, the Republicans teamed up with Democrats, with Representative Moskowitz in the House, and they introduced the same bill. We never got it over here, never had a chance to vote on it.
[21:45:00]
But this should be a bipartisan effort. It is not in anyone's interest to have a President of the United States even taking on the appearance of selling favors--
COLLINS: Yes.
WARREN: --to foreign countries, or selling favors to people who want pardons. And so, presidential libraries, let's cut that one off as one of the ways that Donald Trump can wallow in corruption.
COLLINS: We'll see. I think you might struggle to get some Republican Senate support, but we'll see if that happens.
WARREN: Sure.
COLLINS: And Senator, before you go, I probably normally would not ask you about this, but I just, given the chokehold it has on Washington, right now, I do wonder your thoughts on the MAGA backlash that we're seeing over the Justice Department's handling of the Jeffrey Epstein files, and whether you are joining the calls of other Democrats who believe that more should be released by the Trump Justice Department here.
WARREN: Look, it seems to me that when the Attorney General says, I have the files on my desk, and then does a 180-degree turnaround and says, No, nothing there, nothing here to see, I'm not going to release anything? That that raises a question in the mind of people, all across this country.
I have been a pro-transparency person, since the day I arrived in this place. And this is one of those times where the American people want to see those files. Then, put them out there. Put all the evidence out there. Let people sift through it. Let them take a look.
It's something Donald Trump promised, when he ran for president, that he would do. It's something that his Attorney General indicated that she was going to do. Others in his administration whipped up a lot of energy. And to try to throw the brakes on that right now? It just doesn't feel right to most people.
So, my view is, let it all hang out. Just go ahead, put it out there, and let everybody see what's in those files, and make of it what they will.
COLLINS: Senator Elizabeth Warren, we will see what they do. Thank you for your time tonight, as always.
WARREN: You bet. Thank you. It's good to see you.
COLLINS: And we have a guest right after this, a rising star in politics, when it comes to the House races, we've been keeping a close eye on. That, right after a quick break.
[21:50:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: In a closely-watched Democratic contest that pitted continuity versus change, in the old guard versus the new, voters in southern Arizona stuck with what they know, last night, as we saw Adelita Grijalva handily win the special primary to fill her late father's House seat, a seat that he had held for more than 20 years, until he died in March.
With 84 percent of the votes tallied, we saw Grijalva with nearly 62 percent of the vote, a remarkably wide margin, considering that her biggest opponent was Gen Z activist, Deja Foxx, who had upended the race with an army of social media fans, an electrifying campaign that had garnered national attention by the end of it.
And my source, Deja Foxx, joins me now.
And it's great to have you here, Deja.
I know, obviously, that was not the outcome you were hoping for, last night. But you are so new and into this political scene, I wonder what your takeaways are from the race, but also from last night's results.
DEJA FOXX, (D) RAN IN ARIZONA SPECIAL PRIMARY ELECTION, REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS ACTIVIST, GEN Z ACTIVIST: I mean, I got into this race on April 2nd, just over a 100 days ago. I opened up my laptop, all alone, in my bedroom, filed the paperwork. And if I can tell you the truth, I did it wrong. I had no staff, no money. Just the belief that we needed to do things differently. And we gave people a healthy and exciting primary, between two progressive women of color, in a district that hadn't seen a competitive congressional in 22 years, practically my lifetime.
And what we built in a 100 days rivaled what it takes some decades to build. A 100 million impressions across our social medias. Nearly a million dollars raised from tens of thousands of people, 99 percent small-dollar donors.
I got to talk to so many folks that this race touched. Someone who got their rights restored, in time, to vote for us. Moms who stopped me on the street, and asked if I would tell their daughter what we were doing. Teenage girls who drove past me on the road backed up and asked if we could take a photo, because they were excited about this race.
And, I'll stress once again, we had a 100 days to do something big. There is more, or rather, there are almost 500 days until the midterms, and we need more young people to stick their heads up and lead.
COLLINS: I think, Deja Foxx, a lot of Democrats will be looking to see what you were doing in those days before the midterm elections. We'll hope to have you back here, to talk about that as well.
Deja Foxx, thanks for your time tonight.
FOXX: Thank you. Thanks for having me.
COLLINS: Up next. We heard from the Obamas today, taking on the rumor mill about what had been said about their private lives. What they said today, and why they were laughing about it. That's next.
[21:55:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Over the last year, when we have seen the former first lady, Michelle Obama, publicly absent from some of the appearances with her husband, former President Barack Obama, it has prompted speculation about their relationship, and whether or not they are still together.
Well today, the Obamas, together, addressed those rumors, in a podcast that Michelle Obama co-hosts with her brother.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CRAIG ROBINSON, FORMER FIRST LADY MICHELLE OBAMA'S BROTHER: You guys like each other?
MICHELLE OBAMA, FORMER FIRST LADY OF THE UNITED STATES: Oh, yes, really, huh?
ROBINSON: That's so nice, man.
M. OBAMA: The rumor mill.
It's my husband, y'all.
BARACK OBAMA, 44TH U.S. PRESIDENT: She took me back.
(LAUGHTER)
M. OBAMA: Now, don't start. I can't. It's--
B. OBAMA: It was -- it was touch and go for a while.
ROBINSON: It's so nice to have you both in the same room together.
B. OBAMA: I know.
M. OBAMA: I know.
B. OBAMA: I know.
M. OBAMA: Because when we aren't, folks think we're divorced.
There hasn't been one moment in our marriage where I thought about quitting on my man. And we've had some really hard times, and we have had a lot of fun times, a lot of adventures, and I have become a better person because of the man I'm married to.
B. OBAMA: OK. Don't -- don't make me cry now.
ROBINSON: Oh.
B. OBAMA: Right at the beginning of the show.
ROBINSON: Oh, that's sweet.
B. OBAMA: Don't -- don't let me start tearing up now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[22:00:00]
COLLINS: This October, the couple will celebrate 33 years of marriage.
Thanks so much for joining us tonight.
"NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts right now.
