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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
DOJ Interviews Epstein Accomplice Ghislaine Maxwell; Trump And Powell Clash Over Fed Renovation Cost; Trump Admin Approves Skydance- Paramount Merger After New Pledges. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired July 24, 2025 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
MARC RAIMONDI, ESPN REPORTER, AUTHOR, "SAY HELLO TO THE BAD GUYS": --I think that one of the things that's complicated about wrestling is where does the character end, and the real person begin?
We're talking about a guy named Hulk Hogan. That wasn't his real name. As you mentioned at the top, it was Terry Bollea. So, I would say that Terry Bollea probably made a lot of mistakes in his life.
JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: Yes.
RAIMONDI: Probably a lot of things that he probably regretted at the end and -- but Hulk Hogan as a character, there's no doubting the legacy of what he was able to do for the professional wrestling business.
BERMAN: Marc Raimondi, we appreciate so much, you being with us, and explaining to people who may not have been a boy in the 1980s, what Hulk Hogan meant.
The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts right now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: The Justice Department just announced a second meeting with convicted sex trafficker, and Jeffrey Epstein's accomplice, Ghislaine Maxwell. What we're learning about what happened in that extraordinary meeting today, where she left the prison where she's serving her sentence. Coming up.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
As we come on the air tonight, we are learning that one of President Trump's most senior officials, at the Justice Department, has even more questions for Jeffrey Epstein's notorious accomplice, and the convicted sex trafficker, Ghislaine Maxwell.
We saw Maxwell returning to the correctional facility, where she's serving her sentence, this afternoon.
(VIDEO - GHISLAINE MAXWELL RETURNING TO PRISON AFTER DOJ INTERVIEW, CARRYING A BOX OF MATERIALS) COLLINS: You can see her here, carrying a box of materials with her. And that comes after a lengthy meeting that she had with the Deputy Attorney General, Todd Blanche, today.
Tonight, we are hearing from Maxwell's attorney, who told me in a statement that they are, quote, Looking forward to another productive day. With David Oscar Markus, saying that, "Ghislaine honestly answered every question that Mr. Blanche asked. And she will continue to do so. We are grateful that the government is trying to uncover the truth."
There are real questions tonight, though, even among the President's allies, about how reliable the truth that the Justice Department is hearing from Maxwell really is.
Blanche, when announcing the second day of interviews with Maxwell, said in a statement, on X, quote, "The Department of Justice will share additional information about what we learned at the appropriate time."
Now, Maxwell is the only living person that has been punished for Epstein's notorious crimes, and her own. To say the move to meet with her is unusual is an understatement.
Not only to request a meeting with someone that prosecutors have previously accused of lying under oath, and of failing to take responsibility for her actions. It's someone who the Justice Department's own prosecutors have described this way, saying, quote, "When the defendant was given the opportunity to address her conduct with minors in the context of a civil suit, she lied repeatedly..." and "The defendant's willingness to brazenly lie under oath about her conduct, including some of the conduct charged in the indictment, strongly suggests her true motive has been and remains to avoid being held accountable for her crimes."
Now, despite what prosecutors have said in those filings previously, this administration has dispatched a top official to go and meet with Maxwell. She is serving out 20 years for carrying out a years-long scheme, with Jeffrey Epstein, to groom and sexually abuse underage girls.
Just moments ago, we heard from the President himself, as this has continued to consume not only the White House, but Republicans on Capitol Hill.
He wrote this, just few moments before he came on the air tonight, saying that the Epstein story is a scam, and in part, quote, "As things are revealed and, I hope will take place quickly, you will see that it is yet another Democrat CON JOB. Hopefully, the Grand Jury Files will put an end to this HOAX. Everyone should see what is there, but people who are innocent should not be hurt." And he ended it with "MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN."
My White House insiders tonight are:
Semafor's Shelby Talcott. Axios' Alex Isenstadt.
And our former federal prosecutor, Elliot Williams joins us at the table.
Shelby, one, remarkable to see how the President is describing this tonight, and saying this grand jury information that's going to be revealed. They've asked a judge to do so. We don't actually know yet what we're going to see from that and exactly what it's going to tell us.
What have you heard from what they're trying to get out of this meeting that they're having with Ghislaine Maxwell?
SHELBY TALCOTT, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, SEMAFOR: Well, I think that they're trying to get, just generally, any new information that's going to satisfy the base. That's sort of the baseline for the Trump administration, at this point.
They were, at first, unwilling to release anything. And now, as their base have continued to sort of harp on this and remain focused on it, they want to give their base something that's going to satisfy them.
The question is, is whatever comes out of these interviews going to be enough for the base? Is it going to be reliable, right? I've talked to a lot of Trump administration officials, and people within the MAGA universe, who are pointing out that Ghislaine Maxwell is not exactly the most reliable source. How do we know what she's going to say is going to be reliable? And also, what does she want in exchange for speaking with the DOJ?
COLLINS: Yes.
Alex, what are you hearing from officials at the White House?
ALEX ISENSTADT, SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER, AXIOS: Well, the White House definitely feels like they've got to act on what they understand behind-the-scenes, what they acknowledge is a problem, which is that the base, as Shelby just said, is not happy about where things stand.
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And also, they're getting some pressure from House Republicans. Why? Because House Republicans, they're about to go home for the August recess, and they're going to be hearing from a lot of constituents who are unhappy about the lack of information that the administration has released.
And so, those House Republicans now, they're going to start to put pressure on the White House. That means the White House -- this may not be the last move that we see the White House make, over the next couple weeks. They're going to have to do more than just this to get people to calm down.
COLLINS: I mean, Elliot, how remarkable is it for the Deputy Attorney General to go and meet with her. And also the fact that this didn't happen at the correctional facility where she's serving her sentence. It happened at the federal courthouse in Tallahassee. We saw Ghislaine Maxwell's attorney entering and exiting that courthouse, earlier today.
ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR, FORMER DOJ DEPUTY ASST. ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR LEGISLATIVE AFFAIRS: Yes.
COLLINS: What does that say to you?
WILLIAMS: So, I think, and I could be wrong here, but I think, I believe that the U.S. Attorney's Office is actually in the federal courthouse building.
COLLINS: It is. It is.
WILLIAMS: So yes, it's not uncommon to have such a meeting at the U.S. Attorney's Office.
Now, like as we talked about, I believe last night, it is remarkable for someone who is the Deputy Attorney General of the United States to be doing what is, in effect, a jailhouse meeting. Given, his seniority at the department, given that he's running this 100,000-person entity, he's got other things to do, and it's just a pretty remarkable use of his time.
The other thing to pay attention to is that the Justice Department is opposing her appeal of her conviction. They want her in jail. She is a convicted felon, which the law says -- you know, you can discredit her testimony. And as you teased at the beginning of the program, she's -- the Justice Department's already found that she's not honest. So, what the Deputy Attorney General hopes to be getting out of her--
COLLINS: What would you--
WILLIAMS: --sort of is a question to me.
COLLINS: OK. Can I just ask you, though, as an attorney. What would you ask Ghislaine Maxwell, if you were sitting across her?
WILLIAMS: Well, I would say, Is there anything that you haven't provided in the decades since this has been -- since you were first asked that's new? Is there anybody that we haven't asked you about, over the many years that you've been questioning this matter that you could provide? And the answer is probably no. So, it's just hard to see what she actually has that would satisfy anybody in the public, let alone the law.
COLLINS: Well, and House Republicans want to hear from her too. They subpoenaed her just yesterday.
I actually had Senator Lisa Murkowski here, in the building yesterday, for an interview, about her new book that's coming out. But I asked her if she finds Ghislaine Maxwell credible just given obviously what she's been convicted of, and this is what she had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) COLLINS: Do you think that they would be better-served by talking to the victims rather than the woman who was helping Jeffrey Epstein sex traffic these young girls?
SEN. LISA MURKOWSKI (R-AK): I think if what they're really trying to do is to -- to convey how awful these crimes are? Then -- then, yes, you do not -- you do not have it be presented in what some would say or suggest is a one-sided way.
COLLINS: You don't -- do you find her credible?
MURKOWSKI: I don't know that I find her credible.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: And this comes as The Journal -- The Wall Street Journal is reporting tonight that -- you know, we talked with that letter that Trump allegedly wrote for Epstein. He's suing The Wall Street Journal, over it, saying he didn't do it. For his 50th birthday.
Ghislaine Maxwell put together this compilation of letters, not just from Trump. The Wall Street Journal reports tonight, also Bill Clinton was in there. Five dozen others, including Leon Black, Vera Wang.
I should note, a spokesman for Clinton declined to comment on the birthday message, but referred The Journal to a previous statement, where he said he cut off ties with Epstein before he was arrested and didn't know about his alleged crimes.
TALCOTT: Yes, I mean, I think we can't understate how Jeffrey Epstein partied, for decades, with the rich and famous, right? He knew a lot of wealthy people. He knew a lot of famous people. And so, there are a lot of people that are also being affected by this, all being dredged up now, right, beyond Donald Trump.
But I think the fact of the matter is, this is also one of the things that has been heavily investigated for years, not just on the journalism side, but on the side of the law. And so, there are serious questions over what exactly there is left to say? Is there some bombshell? I think that's what the base is hoping--
WILLIAMS: Yes--
TALCOTT: --that there is some bombshell that's going to come out. I just don't know that there's the evidence that there's -- there's anything more.
COLLINS: Well, I mean, Trump is saying, that Democrats are the ones perpetuating this. I mean, there are high-profile Democrats who could also be listed in that, if we see these files.
ISENSTADT: Bill Clinton, right? Here's the problem the White House has right now, which is, how do you prove a negative? How do you prove it there's nothing in these files. It's hard to prove a negative, right? So they're in a tough spot. And how do you satiate the base? That's the question. Because this, it's not clear that this is -- this is going to do it.
COLLINS: Yes, can I pull up that video again, of Ghislaine Maxwell going back into her correctional facility? Elliot, because I want you to look at this. If we can show that video that we just were showing in the introduction here, as we were coming on the air.
(VIDEO - GHISLAINE MAXWELL RETURNING TO PRISON AFTER DOJ INTERVIEW, CARRYING A BOX OF MATERIALS)
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COLLINS: She's carrying a box of materials with her. Obviously, we're speculating. We don't know. But Elliot, I mean, what would -- if she's your client? You see that box there where she's going in.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
COLLINS: It's a large box.
WILLIAMS: Oh, god.
COLLINS: What could she be carrying?
WILLIAMS: There's probably files, probably her personal files. The problem is she's in prison, so she doesn't have access to a lot of her stuff, and maybe it was from her attorneys. I simply don't know.
Whatever it is, though, and this is picking up on Alex's point, and Shelby's as well, the sheer number of people who might be in the files in that box? There's a tremendous risk, whenever we go down the road of releasing any information about them.
Whether they might have been palling around with this sex offender or whatever else, you're running the risk of really harming the reputations of people, who -- many of whom have not committed crimes, even if it's stuff that we might find unseemly, generally.
COLLINS: Well, and one thing that Laura Loomer has raised, who has been heavily critical of Attorney General Pam Bondi here, she's a huge ally of the President's, is, why was Ghislaine Maxwell not interviewed by the Justice Department before they issued that memo, that really is what made the base erupt, basically saying, No more information is coming out here?
TALCOTT: Yes, I mean, that's the question that I'm hearing from a lot of folks.
And I think the answer is probably -- maybe you can answer this better -- but it's probably because she has been convicted of the crime, right? She was spoken to. She was interviewed already. You can't really be convicted of a crime without being interviewed by people. And so, there's probably just not that much else that she would have had to say.
And also, it goes back to your question of, is it better to interview this person, who has been proven to lie, versus some of these victims again, who might actually have new information or who might not have been able to tell their stories in the same way? Why go to the person who is sentenced to jail for decades for crimes?
WILLIAMS: And it's not just -- you know, it's not just that she won't have much to say. It's that she won't have much to say that will satisfy what people want. They are expecting this smoking gun list with the names of whomever else on it. And that's simply, number one, not how criminals work often. And number two, not what we can anticipate here. It's just -- it's just not going to be satisfying.
COLLINS: Well, and The New York Times is reporting that Justice Department has over a 100,000 documents that are related to Jeffrey Epstein. Obviously, that is a wide reference. We don't know how significant the references are to people like President Trump in that.
I do think there is a question of whether or not this ends in them having to release all that. I mean, Trump's talking about the grand jury material tonight. That's a small portion of all of those documents.
ISENSTADT: Right. The problem is, is what's in those files, right?
You look at that original memo that the DOJ released, and they said, Look, a lot of the people who may be in those memo -- in those documents, if you release those documents, and those -- some innocent people who may have not done anything necessarily criminal? They get attached to this case. Or is there child pornography, which is something that no one wants to see and should not be out there, right?
So, there's some questions about what might be in those documents.
COLLINS: Yes, we'll see.
Alex Isenstadt. Shelby Talcott. Elliot Williams. Great to have you all here.
Up next for us here. The President's feud with the Fed chair, Jerome Powell, was in plain sight today, as the President made a remarkable trip from the White House to the Federal Reserve. Pulling out this piece of paper, in a moment where -- you have to see how Powell responded to this.
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(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: A surreal scene was playing out in the hallway of an active construction site, that is the headquarters of the Federal Reserve, this afternoon.
While donning white hard hats, President Trump stood next to the object of his ire, for the last several months. That is the Chairman of the Federal Reserve, Jay Powell, who has resisted the President's repeated demands that he lower interest rates.
Within minutes of the President arriving on the scene here, we saw them in the hallway, where there was a remarkable moment between the two of them, where initially Powell had stepped out of the camera frame, just to note as you're about to see this, when Trump ushered him back in.
Then, as the cameras were rolling, Powell pushed back on the President's assertions about the price tag of the central bank's renovations.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: So the 2.7 is now 3.1, and--
JEROME POWELL, CHAIR, FEDERAL RESERVE OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm not aware of that, Mr. President.
TRUMP: Yes, it just came out.
POWELL: Yes, and I have -- I haven't heard that from anybody at the Fed.
TRUMP: Yes, it just came out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our note said it about 3.1 and 3.2 (ph).
TRUMP: 3.1--
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 3.1 -- 3.2.
POWELL: This came from us?
TRUMP: Yes. I don't know who does that.
POWELL: Oh, you're including the Martin renovation. You just added--
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's our entire capital (ph).
POWELL: You just added -- you just added in a third building, is what that is. That's a third building included in--
TRUMP: Well, I know, but it's -- it's a building that's being built.
POWELL: No, it's been -- it was built five years ago. We finished Martin, five years ago.
TRUMP: It's part of the overall work. So--
POWELL: But it's not -- that's not new.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: The tour continued.
And back at the White House afterward, I asked the President's Deputy Chief of Staff, and his Budget chief, about that exchange right there.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Who was responsible for giving the President accurate information about what the cost is? Because Fed Chair Jay Powell was correcting him online, telling--
JAMES BLAIR, WHITE HOUSE DEPUTY CHIEF OF STAFF: No, he wasn't. What the President pulled out of his pocket--
COLLINS: They had two different numbers, is my point.
BLAIR: No. The President pulled out of his pocket a page from the FOIA request of the Fed's own internal documents that is available on their website. It's available right there--
COLLINS: So, when he's saying there's a third building, you're saying he's wrong?
BLAIR: No. What the President is saying is the entire construction project that's going on, which is a build and renovation project, over the last number of years, is currently at $3.1 billion.
And what the Fed chair was saying was, No, no, you have to take one of the buildings out of it.
Well, no, it's all one project on the whole complex.
COLLINS: Why do you disagree with that, if the building was already done, and it's not part of what your issues are right now?
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BLAIR: I don't know what you're saying. If you go back and look -- and the President's looked at the forms. They're right there. You can see, every single year, they put out the FOIAs for every single year. And every single year, the numbers have gone up for this project.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What numbers are--
COLLINS: So, you're saying that the number Jay Powell gave was wrong, and the one the President had is accurate, in your -- in your assessment. Is that right?
BLAIR: I think what the Fed chair is doing is splitting hairs, in that moment, to try to drive down the topline costs for what we're talking about.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: We can't be sure, but this appears to be the document that the President handed to Powell today. It shows the cost of several different projects and programs, that we have here, I should note, that is on the Federal Reserve's website, when you look at their budgets and their analysis for the next few years.
Joining me now is CNN Global Economic Analyst, and Associate Editor for the Financial Times, Rana Foroohar. And it's great to have you here, Rana.
You've obviously covered the Federal Reserve extensively. Just on that scene, first, that played out today, have you ever seen anything like that?
RANA FOROOHAR, CNN GLOBAL ECONOMIC ANALYST, GLOBAL BUSINESS COLUMNIST & ASSOCIATE EDITOR, FINANCIAL TIMES: Never. Never in the history of central banking in America, or possibly any other country, have I seen anything like that. It was really, really unprecedented.
And it was, clearly, good television for the President, but it does not make investors feel more confident about the monetary market or economic picture in America, I can tell you that.
COLLINS: And when obviously you heard from the President afterward, he seemed to soften in his criticism of Jay Powell. I mean, who knows if it holds? Obviously, he's been quite frustrated with him.
But he came out of it after, and took some questions from reporters, and seemed to say, It's easy to Monday morning quarterback. He talked about the construction site, and what has been the centerpiece of this criticism from his own aides, about how much it's costing to renovate this.
I wonder what you made of just the outcome of this visit overall.
FOROOHAR: Yes. So, look, I mean, is there a cost overrun in this building project? Sure. Is it larger than many other federal cost overruns? Yes. But that's not the key issue here, Kaitlan.
If you look at what the Fed is actually spending its money on, like hundreds of billions of dollars? It's on fighting inflation. Even this large, expensive project is a fraction of the money that the Fed has to spend every year. One of the reasons it's spending that much money, fighting inflation, according to many economists, is political risk in America, which has risen under the President's second tenure, and tariffs, and the worries over tariffs.
And so, the President has been looking for a reason, to accuse Jay Powell of malfeasance, of fraud. There doesn't seem to be any evidence here that I can see that would point to Jay Powell not doing his job, which is to look at the data, and to try to make the best call about balancing managing inflation, and keeping employment where it should be. And I think he's doing a very good job at that.
COLLINS: Rana Foroohar, we will continue to see if he continues to do that job. Thanks so much for joining us tonight.
Also here tonight, my next source who sits on the Senate Banking Committee, Republican from Ohio, Senator Bernie Moreno.
And it's great to have you here.
Do you think the President is less likely to fire Jay Powell after that visit today? SEN. BERNIE MORENO (R-OH): I don't know. I think the reality is, with Jay Powell, should -- he just resign. This guy is completely incompetent.
Your previous guest, I don't know what planet she's on. But look, here's -- here's the facts.
COLLINS: Well--
MORENO: Let your viewers decide. Let your viewers decide. Here's just facts, indisputable facts.
The Federal Reserve normally gives hundreds of billions of dollars to the Federal Treasury. That's been the history of the Federal Reserve. Since Jay Powell has been there, for the last three or four years, we've given the Fed, hundreds of billions of dollars. They've been losing hundreds of billions of dollars. That's number one.
Number two, they have four buildings that they own in Washington, D.C. The one on New York Avenue, let's take that out of the picture, because that's not planned to be renovated for five years. So there's three buildings.
The Martin Building, which Jay Powell talked about, was 25 percent over budget. That's pretty bad. Like, if you're doing a project, and it's 25 percent over budget? That's a problem.
The Eccles Building, a 1951 building, those two -- is the one project you saw in the construction site. The budget was $1.3 billion. It's now $2.5 billion. It's almost 100 percent over budget.
The fact that he looked at a piece of paper, and didn't recognize that it's his own numbers, show gross incompetence, combined with incredible arrogance. This guy is terrible.
COLLINS: But do you think he should resign because of the state of the U.S. economy, or because of the cost of renovating the Fed's HQ?
MORENO: There -- I'll give you the myriad of reasons. He was way too late in raising interest rates, when fiscal stimulus went crazy, and we had the supply shock. So, he missed the -- missed that, led to generationally high inflation, which crushed working Americans. That's strike one.
Strike two, he's losing hundreds of billions of dollars. You can't run an enterprise, and lose hundreds of billions of dollars and keep your job.
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Number three, he's so arrogant and so inattentive to details, that he doesn't recognize his own numbers, and recognize it -- with humility. Yes, we are almost a 100 percent over budget. So that's the challenge, is that--
COLLINS: Yes, but-- MORENO: --he doesn't see that.
COLLINS: Can I just ask you, though. Because, I mean, the complaint against him, which obviously the President can -- has said this, that he doesn't like that he didn't raise interest rates. This has only recently turned into how much it's costing to renovate. I mean, when you look at it, what he is saying is the Martin Building doesn't count, because it's been down for five years, is what he was arguing.
MORENO: Well, for -- for four years.
COLLINS: That it's not what they're working on right now.
MORENO: So, it was -- it was completed four years ago, 25 percent over budget. So you take the $3.1 billion, take out the Martin Building, now you're at $2.5 billion. The $2.5 billion was originally budgeted to be $1.3 billion.
COLLINS: But I'm just--
MORENO: He's almost a 100 percent over budget.
COLLINS: The President was complaining about Jay Powell, long before this entered our conversation.
MORENO: Sure.
COLLINS: We weren't talking about this, back in January, or February, when the President was saying, Bring interest rates down. It's only recently become an issue. It doesn't seem to be -- and he even seemed to kind of back off of it, actually, during that visit today.
I think the question that people have had is, seeing the President there, you know, this typically has been this independent line between the administration and the Federal Reserve. Do you think that that is important, for the Federal Reserve to have independence?
MORENO: Oh, of course. And we're not talking about that. We're talking about, is this guy competent?
Now, the reason it's now in our consciousness about this renovation is because we had him in front of our Banking Committee hearing, and he lied. He said the building did not have a VIP elevator, and dining rooms, and beehives, and waterfalls. All that is just objectively not true.
So again, either he lied before our Banking Committee, which, by the way, is a felony, or he's just grossly incompetent. I fall more on the second one, given his track record, losing hundreds of billions of dollars, not managing the U.S. economy properly.
Also, by the way, in that same hearing, he says it's a good idea to forgive student debt? Imagine the head of the Federal Reserve, our central bank, telling our policymakers that we should forgive debt? That's insanity. So this is a guy, he's hyper partisan, and as a result of his hyper partisanship, he's costing the country-- COLLINS: But then why did Trump pick him to be the--
MORENO: --hundreds of millions of dollars--
COLLINS: --Chair of the Federal Reserve?
MORENO: Look, I've employed 1,100 people in my life. Out of 1,100 people, I made some bad hires. You recover quickly.
He got -- President Trump, in my opinion, he got some bad advice from somebody. He put him in place. Of course, now he was in there. And now he's back. His term is up in May.
I asked Jay Powell in my office, When your term is up in May, are you going to do what every other Fed Chair did, and leave the Federal Reserve? He said, Only if he doesn't feel the institution is at risk. The height of arrogance and ego to make that kind of statement is pretty shocking. He should leave now. Why not -- why not leave now?
COLLINS: But do you think the President should fire him?
MORENO: I believe he should leave. It'd just be a lot easier, if he just said, Hey, I resign. It would make the country better. It would make the Federal Reserve better. It'll restore confidence.
COLLINS: But if he doesn't -- if he doesn't do that?
MORENO: Well, the President, certainly, in my opinion, has all the rights to do it. In a Supreme Court case called Humphrey's, you can look it up, there's a term called inefficiency, which basically means incompetence. And if that standard doesn't apply to Jay Powell, it doesn't apply to anybody. He's the Anthony Fauci of the financial system in this country.
COLLINS: OK. But Trump also kept Anthony Fauci on, and gave him a medal. I mean, you're pointing the people -- to people that the President has hired. Those are senior people in his government. It's not just a random person who works in a lower level job.
MORENO: Right. And when you make a bad hiring decision, you get rid of that person.
But what's better than all that is the guy should just have the humility to step down. Look, there is nobody more incompetent to run the Federal Reserve than Jay Powell.
COLLINS: Can I -- can I ask you about what also we were talking about when we came on the air tonight? The President's weighing in on this tonight. His Deputy Attorney General meeting with Ghislaine Maxwell, convicted sex trafficker, down in Florida, today, to talk about Jeffrey Epstein, as MAGA has been very upset about this.
Do you think it's appropriate to meet with her? Do you think anything good is going to come out of that, or helpful?
MORENO: Well, I mean, at the end of the day, look, no matter how much comes out, no matter how much information is daylighted, to a very small population of people, it'll never be enough.
President Trump has never been more popular with the Republican Party, and for good reason. He's made some historic accomplishments in his first six months, things that people didn't even think was possible. Secured our border. Funded deportations. Got inflation under control. Has made incredible trade deals, trade deals that, again, nobody thought would be possible. So, that record of accomplishment is indisputable.
We passed the one big, beautiful bill. The Democrats are so afraid of it, they won't even talk about it anymore.
COLLINS: But do you think anything good is going to come out of the Ghislaine Maxwell meeting? Is that the way you would like the Deputy Attorney General to spend his time?
MORENO: Kaitlan, I think there's no matter how much is disclosed at this point, there's going to be a small segment of the population, fueled primarily by media and the Democrats, that are never going to be satisfied with what's out there. So look, my point--
COLLINS: Steve Bannon and Laura Loomer are not fueled by the media and Democrats. I think they would probably take offense to that.
MORENO: I said -- I said -- I said a small population of Republicans. President Trump's approval rating has never--
COLLINS: Yes, but that's the President's base.
MORENO: President Trump has never been more popular than he is right now. Almost 94 percent of Republicans -- compare that to Democrats, by the way. The Democrats in the Congress have an approval rating of 19 percent.
[21:30:00]
COLLINS: So, you seem to disagree with this push that we've seen from some of your colleagues, to release everything?
MORENO: I don't disagree with that. Release. It's fine. I just -- my point -- my point is it's just not going--
COLLINS: You think just releasing everything is more harmful?
MORENO: No, it's not harmful. It's just not going to satisfy the same group of people that want more. And it's a very convenient distraction for the Democrats, because here's what they're not talking about.
COLLINS: Well, they're definitely taking advantage of it.
MORENO: We have secured the border. We have great trade deals. We have low inflation. We have low energy prices. We passed a transformational bill that's putting money, finally, in the hands of working Americans. Real wages are climbing. We have peace and stability around the world. Our military has never been stronger.
COLLINS: Right, but those are things that Republicans aren't talking about.
MORENO: I agree. I'm trying -- I'm working on it.
COLLINS: Republicans are the ones getting distracted by this, right?
MORENO: I'm working on it, to talk about that.
COLLINS: Right. But--
MORENO: But--
COLLINS: But out of all of your colleagues. I mean, the House Speaker is sending home your colleagues in the House because they're trying to avoid a vote on this. The Deputy Attorney General is going to Florida to meet with her. I mean, isn't that Republicans who are perpetuating that then?
MORENO: Look, I believe that Republicans should go out for the month of August, when we're in recess, and talk about the virtues of the one big, beautiful bill. It was--
COLLINS: Not Jeffrey Epstein?
MORENO: People don't care about that, doesn't affect working Americans. Look, this is a D.C. story.
If you go to regular Ohio, Chillicothe, Coshocton, Granville, you talk to people in Ohio. You know what they care about? They feel safer in their communities. They're happy that we have a secure border. They're seeing less drugs coming in. They're seeing inflation come under control. They're seeing this idea that we're going to bring good, high-paying jobs back. They got a child tax credit, $2,200, thanks to the one big, beautiful bill. We're going to make a generational investment in fixing air traffic control. That's what they're talking about.
COLLINS: Do you approve of the President pardoning or reducing Ghislaine Maxwell's sentence?
MORENO: Look, the President's going to make whatever decisions he makes. I think, at the end of the day, this story is a convenient distraction for Democrats. That's the reality.
COLLINS: But you don't want to say yes or no on that?
MORENO: The President has absolute constitutional pardon authority.
COLLINS: I know he has the authority. But do you -- would you -- would you recommend it?
MORENO: If he asked me, it would probably not be something that he should do, because, again, it's just going to fuel more conspiracy theories or distractions. Look, Russia, Russia, Russia has been replaced by Epstein, Epstein, Epstein.
President Trump has made historic accomplishments in the first six months. I am incredibly proud of what the administration has done, and I am incredibly proud of the fact that I could play even a tiny role in making that happen. We're getting our country back on track. This country is hotter than it's ever been. It was on its knees a year ago, and we are the hottest country on Earth right now.
COLLINS: Senator Bernie Moreno, thank you for your time tonight.
MORENO: Thank you.
COLLINS: Up next here for us. After a year-long saga, the FCC tonight has approved the Skydance merger with Paramount. CNN's Brian Stelter will break down the details, and what this means, now that it's finally happened, right ahead.
[21:35:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, the Trump administration has formally approved the $8 billion merger between Paramount Global and Skydance Media, now clearing the way for one of the most highly scrutinized media deals in years.
CNN has learned tonight that the Federal Communications Commission cleared the deal, after Skydance made new commitments to the FCC chair, Brendan Carr. He's a deep loyalist of former -- of current President Trump's.
And it also comes exactly a week after Paramount axed "The Late Show With Stephen Colbert," two days after Trump's attorneys finalized that $16 million settlement with Paramount's CBS.
My source tonight is Brian Stelter, CNN's Chief Media Analyst.
And Brian, I know you talked to the FCC chair himself, Brendan Carr, today, about this merger. What did he have to tell you about what these assurances were that he got from Skydance?
BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA ANALYST: He said he's pleased by three commitments in particular. One, a commitment to hire an ombudsman to police bias at CBS. Two, a promise to invest in local news. And three, a pledge not to introduce any new DEI policies.
As you indicated, Kaitlan, Carr has reshaped the FCC to reflect Trump's priorities and points of view, just as other agency chiefs have been doing. At the FCC, that means beating up on broadcast media. Today, Carr even indulged in speculation that ABC's "The View" might be in trouble.
There is a clear effort underway, from the top-down, from Trump on down, to chill his critics, on television and online. Earlier this week, Trump celebrated the cancelation of Colbert's show, and he said he thinks ABC's Jimmy Kimmel will be next to be canceled.
To some observers, this pattern is reminiscent of Viktor Orban's Hungary, where democratic values were eroded and autocratic powers were exerted, partly through culture, partly through Orban's capture of media outlets.
The U.S. is a very different climate. But then the question becomes, what do American consumers want? American viewers and readers and listeners, what do they want from their media outlets? Do they want places like CBS to fight or to fold?
In this case, Kaitlan, the new version of Paramount, the new owners will now be able to take charge in just a few weeks.
COLLINS: Yes, and obviously, so many questions about what that looks like going forward. We'd already seen everything up and to this point to get this merger actually approved. We'll see what that means.
As always, Brian Stelter, thank you for your time tonight.
STELTER: Thank you.
COLLINS: Up next. More of my interview, my one-on-one sit-down with Senator Lisa Murkowski. What the Republican senator had to say about her relationship with President Trump, this time around. You'll want to hear how her view of the White House is now.
[21:40:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, President Trump's former defense attorney, Emil Bove, is a step closer to a lifetime appointment as a federal appeals court judge.
Bove is currently serving as the number three at the Justice Department, right now. He's faced a bunch of headwinds since joining there, following mass firings that happened at the department, moves to investigate officials who worked on those January 6th cases, dropping the bribery charges against the New York City Mayor Eric Adams.
[21:45:00]
The Senate today, though, advanced his nomination with two Republicans voting no. One of them was Senator Lisa Murkowski of Alaska. It is not the first time that she has broken with President Trump. She also voted no, on Pete Hegseth, as the Defense Secretary, and also rejected the President's renaming of America's tallest mountain in her home state.
I talked to her about that relationship, yesterday, with the President, as we talked about her new book, "Far from Home."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: There have been moments, where you have broken with Trump and the administration, or spoken out against them, in a way that it seems that some of your colleagues either can't or won't. And your term is up, when the President's term is up. He obviously can't run for reelection. I wonder, do you feel that you have a freedom to be able to speak out that your other -- your other colleagues don't have?
MURKOWSKI: I can't speak for others and why they do or don't say anything. I just know that I have to be true to myself, I have to be true to the constituents that I serve. And I do think that I have perhaps a little more freedom, if you will.
I come from a state that well, it is red. I was returned to the United States Senate in 2010, after I lost a primary to a -- to a Tea Party Republican, and I was returned by way of a write-in vote. So, my base, if you will, is quite interesting. It is not your typical Republican base, not even close.
And so, it -- I think you have seen that there is, I think, more room for me to work outside of the party. My allegiance is not to a party. My allegiance is to the people of the State of Alaska, and I take that responsibility pretty -- pretty seriously.
COLLINS: You were asked recently about whether you could see yourself leaving the Republican Party. You did not say, no.
MURKOWSKI: Yes. The Republican Party is a different party today, than certainly when I registered to vote as a Republican at 18.
And so, again, I don't -- I don't feel like my responsibility is to follow the contours of the Republican Party, necessarily. That -- that my -- my responsibility when I am here in the Senate is only to a Republican conference. It is certainly not just to a president. My responsibility -- my oath is to the Constitution. My responsibility is to Alaskans.
And so, sometimes, I'm sure people look at my voting record and say, Well, why isn't she a team player? Why isn't she a better Republican?
I don't believe that Alaskans sent me to Washington, D.C., to be a better Republican. I think they sent me here to be a better senator for all Alaska. We've got about--
COLLINS: Does that mean we could see you maybe caucusing with another party, the Democrats?
MURKOWSKI: Well, we don't have a lot of choices in the Congress, right?
COLLINS: Yes.
MURKOWSKI: You got the red team, and you got the blue team. You got the Republicans, and the Democrats. And so, when you say you caucus with the Democrats? Caucusing with the Democrats means caucusing with a group, whose values I am not in as keen alignment, as on the Republican side of the aisle. My values haven't changed over the years. I think what you've seen--
COLLINS: But you said the Republican Party has changed. MURKOWSKI: I think the Republican Party has changed. I think -- I think the Republican Party now is more of a MAGA party, and I don't fit well within those contours.
COLLINS: Well, you wrote in your book--
MURKOWSKI: But my values are still the same.
COLLINS: --something fascinating about a fellow Alaskan. You said, Sarah Palin didn't know that she was helping start a movement - she was just being Sarah Palin - but she became the prototype for Donald Trump, the showman without principle. And he took populism much further, partly because he didn't need a script.
Showman without principle.
[21:50:00]
MURKOWSKI: He is -- he is one who, I think, clearly, is focused on identifying where that -- where that populism streak is, in people moving, moving in a direction, working to expand a base. Is it because there is an ideological link there? Or is it because he is a keen politician, who knows that it will be to his benefit to bring in, whether it's labor?
And Republicans didn't used to have much of a connection with labor. You've seen President Trump reach out to them. Native Americans, you're seeing the President reaching out to them.
So, I think it is -- it is -- he is one who is intuitive, in that sense, in terms of where is -- where is that popular appeal, and figuring out how you tap into that.
COLLINS: And you two have obviously not always seen eye to eye?
MURKOWSKI: No.
COLLINS: I mean, he tried to essentially make sure you lost your job.
MURKOWSKI: We -- yes, that's -- that is true. But--
COLLINS: How would you describe your relationship with him, this term around?
MURKOWSKI: I -- my job is to figure out how to get along or how to work with everybody that is put in front of me, whether I voted for them or not.
It's no great state secret that I did not support President Trump, but it's also no secret that he didn't support me. But as I've shared with him, You won, I won. You want to do good things for the country. I want to do good things for the State of Alaska. Let's figure out where we can find some shared purpose and work on that. And so, we've been doing that.
And so, I think people sometimes are surprised. They think that it has to just be always at odds, and I don't think it's that way. We're probably not pen pals, like he and Lindsey Graham are, but -- but having said that, I am -- I'm working to represent Alaskans as best I can, and working with an administration that has a lot of shared goals, in helping my state achieve that. And we'll continue to work to do just that.
COLLINS: Senator Murkowski, thank you for your time.
MURKOWSKI: Thank you. Good to be with you, Kaitlan.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: Up next. We're going to take you back to the White House, where CNN's Donie O'Sullivan, and I, spoke today about the fallout from The Wall Street Journal report, but how it may had helped -- helps the President with his base, and also, what is MAGA media saying now about the Jeffrey Epstein files.
[21:55:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: At the White House, this afternoon, CNN's Donie O'Sullivan and I talked about President Trump's MAGA base, where they stand and how they feel about what they want to see come next, when it comes to the Epstein files.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: Donie O'Sullivan, we're here at the White House.
Obviously, in the White House grounds, these days, there's a lot of MAGA media, people who are firmly in the President's favor, and in his orbit, and also in touch with members of his base. A lot of these far- right podcasters who have been pretty critical of how they've handled the Epstein files.
What have you been hearing from them in recent days?
DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I mean, Kaitlan, what a difference a week, or in this case, two weeks makes, right? I mean, two weeks ago, it was just after the Trump administration came out with the -- DOJ came out with that statement, saying, Basically nothing to see here with -- when it comes to Epstein, let's move on.
Then we had that turning point event, the Charlie Kirk event in Florida, where everyone, Tucker Carlson, Megyn Kelly, and just Steven -- Steve Bannon, regular Trump supporters, everybody was talking about how they were unhappy with the President, with this administration, of the handling of this story, and this case, I guess.
And then everything changed, last week, with that Wall Street Journal story, a story that, on the face of this, one might think would have been damaging for the President. For his base, it very much was what solidified their support around him again. So, we very quickly saw that with all the different MAGA media outlets that are here at the White House, very quickly forgetting about how his administration might have botched some of the handling of this, and straight away claiming that The Wall Street Journal story was a total hoax, or that it was made-up, all that sort of stuff.
So, that is really -- that, in addition to their promise to now release some more information, has kept the MAGA base, I think, at bay for now.
COLLINS: For now, though--
O'SULLIVAN: Yes.
COLLINS: --being the key statement there.
One big question I've had is this remarkable meeting that the Justice Department had with Ghislaine Maxwell today, in Florida, at the U.S. Attorney's Office there, at the federal courthouse, is -- what's the outcome of this going to be?
Obviously, what Ghislaine Maxwell would be seeking here is either a pardon, or a reduction in her sentence, something the President has the power to do. Would that not infuriate the MAGA base?
O'SULLIVAN: I mean, well, to your point, you think if Maxwell wants to get that pardon, she better not say anything damaging, in any way, to Trump or his administration, right?
COLLINS: And she may not.
O'SULLIVAN: And she -- no, and she may not, because there might be nothing to say.
Plus, I mean, I think when it comes to this case, and when it comes to people's fascination with this case? Sure, I think people would be upset to see a pardon for Maxwell.
But really, like, a lot of folks, don't even know her name, right? Like, they are just familiar with, Epstein is the bad guy. It's often how things are painted, sort of in this online space. It's like, Epstein was the guy, and we don't kind of care about everybody else's associates in that point for -- you know, from that perspective.
[22:00:00]
So really, I think, kind of what we've seen is that we'll see how this all plays out. But I think people are not going to be happy with how any of this goes, unless they get what they were expecting and hoping for, for years, which is that this would all somehow result in the incrimination of Democratic Party politicians.
COLLINS: And we're seeing more Republican officials, senators, say that, that maybe they should just release everything, just to get it out there, to move on from this.
Donie O'Sullivan, thanks.
O'SULLIVAN: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: And thank you so much for joining us.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts right now.
