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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Ghislaine Maxwell Moved To Minimum-Security Prison Camp In Texas Just One Week After She Met With Trump's DOJ; Trump Fires Labor Official Over Weak Jobs Numbers; Trump Orders Nuclear Subs Closer To Russia In Rare Threat. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired August 01, 2025 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MOLLY MCPHERSON, CRISIS AND REPUTATION STRATEGIST: This is the modern formula for outrage marketing. You spark debate, you drive engagement, you ride the wave. And then when the dust settles, American Eagle gets the clicks, the coverage, and also the cash.
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JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: That's all for us. I'm Jim Sciutto. Hope you have a great weekend.
The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST: A mystery move for Jeffrey Epstein's accomplice. Ghislaine Maxwell, quietly sent to a lower-security prison, days after speaking with the President's Justice Department. The question, still unanswered tonight, is why.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
We begin tonight with an intriguing development concerning the status of Jeffrey Epstein's sex trafficking accomplice, Ghislaine Maxwell. After starting the week at the low-security prison in Florida, where she's been serving her 20-year sentence, she's ending it at a minimum- security prison in Texas.
This comes just a week after she met privately with the number two at the Justice Department, the Deputy Attorney General, Todd Blanche, for about nine hours over the course of two days. We still don't know what exactly was revealed, if anything new, during those meetings.
But this comes as according to the Bureau of Prisons regulations, inmates who are designated as sex offenders, as Ghislaine Maxwell is, usually aren't eligible for the kind of upgrade that she just got. Yes, it is prison, but there is a difference here, and you can see when it comes to what these prisons are like, and what the facilities are, and also what the restrictions are like.
Ghislaine Maxwell now has more freedom of movement, limited-security fencing, and is now being housed with non-violent inmates. Her new dormmates, for example, include the famed, notorious founder, Elizabeth Holmes, and also "The Real Housewives of Salt Lake City" star, Jen Shah. Each of them are serving time for fraud at the new facility, where you're going to see Maxwell now fulfilling her sentence.
And it's a move that blindsided the family of Virginia Roberts Giuffre, whom the President says, Jeffrey Epstein, quote, Stole from Mar-a-Lago when she was working there as a spa attendant, as a teenage girl, back in the year, 2000, when she was first approached by Ghislaine Maxwell.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SKY ROBERTS, BROTHER OF VIRGINIA GIUFFRE: And we were very shocked, and very surprised, that they were giving her a voice, and giving her a platform to essentially, possibly make a deal.
And I want to make it clear that she does not get the opportunity to get out. She deserves to rot in prison, where she belongs, because of what she's done to my sister, and so many other women.
AMANDA ROBERTS, SISTER-IN-LAW OF VIRGINIA GIUFFRE: People who commit those crimes against someone deserve to feel those repercussions. They don't get to rest easy, while the survivors are still trying to live their life, every single day. You don't get to rest easy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: That was from our interview, last night, before we learned about this move. And this move is raising new questions tonight, including why Maxwell was moved, who ordered the move, and whether or not someone pushed through a waiver, so she would become eligible.
The Roberts family, and also two other Epstein and Maxwell accusers, sent us this statement, shortly after learning about Maxwell being moved today, and I want to read from it now.
They said, quote, "It is with horror and outrage that we object to the preferential treatment" that "convicted sex trafficker Ghislaine Maxwell has received... The American public should be enraged by the preferential treatment being given to a pedophile and a criminally charged child sex offender. The Trump administration should not credit a word that Maxwell says, as the government itself sought charges against Maxwell for being a serial liar. This move smacks of a cover up. The victims deserve better."
Virginia Roberts Giuffre died by suicide, earlier this year. In the years before her death, she said that Maxwell was not an innocent bystander or just a facilitator.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) VIRGINIA GIUFFRE, JEFFREY EPSTEIN VICTIM: She led me up a staircase, and we made a right into Jeffrey's room, and Jeffrey laying naked on the massage table. Jeffrey lifts his head up, looks at Ghislaine, Ghislaine looks at him, and I call it the Cheshire Cat grin, because his face just went like this, and it was like a nod of approval.
They said, Take off your clothes. I had these little girl undies on, like little hearts on them, I remember, and they were laughing at that, because they liked that. The younger you look, the better it is.
[21:05:00]
It turned into -- it turned very sexual, and it was abuse straight away, from both of them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Tough to hear those words from the late Virginia Giuffre here. And of course, this raises new questions tonight, about this move. And clearly, her family has answers.
My sources to start us off:
CNN Senior Legal Analyst, Elie Honig.
Reuters' White House correspondent, Jeff Mason.
And also a prison consultant who has deep knowledge of the facility that Maxwell has been transferred to, Sam Mangel.
And Sam, it's great to have you back here.
We've talked to you about moments like this before, when people go to prison, what they should experience. Can you just tell us tonight, for people who maybe aren't facility -- aren't familiar with where she was serving in Florida, and where this new place in Texas is, what are the biggest differences that Ghislaine Maxwell is experiencing now?
SAM MANGEL, PRISON CONSULTANT: Sure, and thanks for having me back, Kaitlan.
Tallahassee is a low-security female facility. It has -- it's a jail that you would see on television. It has bars. It has controlled movement, where inmates can only move 10 minutes on every hour. Definitely more restrictions.
It also has violent offenders. You'll have gang members there. You'll have people that committed heinous crimes, and have finally made their way down through the federal system to where they have 20 years or less on their sentences. There is no question it is a much more difficult place to be, for anyone, for any offender. And certainly, given her charges and the length of her sentence, it made sense that she was designated to Tallahassee.
Where she is now, at Bryan, is a minimum-security camp. There are no cells. There are no guard towers. The inmates -- and I did speak to a client there today, who said she hadn't seen Ms. Maxwell yet. But they have pods, so there's maybe two or three girls in a pod. Women are allowed outside from 6 in the morning to 9 o'clock at night. There is no controlled movement. There's much more in terms of activities to do. I understand, there's even a yoga course that's taught there.
So, it is a diametrically different situation from where she came. I understand why they might have transferred her. There's probably -- you know, anybody that's cooperating for the government, might have a target on their back, and it made sense to move her. Why she was moved to a camp, I don't know, and that is a very difficult move to accomplish under any circumstances.
COLLINS: Why is it difficult? What do you mean?
MANGEL: Somebody like Ms. Maxwell, from my understanding, had at least two management variables associated with their case.
So, management variable is a policy the Bureau of Prisons has, that said that if you have a sentence greater than 10 years, you can't go to a camp. If you have greater than 20 years, you might have to go to a medium-level security. If you have a charge of violence or any sexual offense, you're not typically eligible for a minimum-security camp.
The fact that she had at least two of these variables waived, one that she had more than 10 years remaining on her sentence, and certainly the charge itself, is very, very atypical. I've had clients with one or both of those charges, and getting a management variable waived for anyone, within the Bureau of Prisons, is next to impossible. To have two management variables waived? Highly unusual.
COLLINS: Well, and Elie, when you look at this. I mean, a week ago, we were talking about her meetings with Todd Blanche. We don't have a direct connection yet. We don't know. No one has told us why she was moved, or how this happened. But what does the -- does the timing strike you as suspect?
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: If this was just a random, normal prisoner transfer? Then it is a heck of a coincidence, and I'm not buying that. Every indication is that this was done intentionally and with a purpose.
Now, a couple things to keep in mind. First of all, Bureau of Prisons is within DOJ, under Pam Bondi, under Todd Blanche's command and control.
Second of all, as the prison expert just pointed out, somebody at DOJ has to waive this. Because she is a sex offender, because she was doing 20 years, ordinarily, she would not be eligible to go to the minimum-security farm, as we sometimes call them, or a camp. So somebody had to say, Yes, that's OK.
How can we ignore this? Todd Blanche goes in there, speaks with her last week. By all indications, seems to have been satisfied.
This is a benefit. This is a serious benefit. There's a 140,000 federal inmates. Every single one of them would be desperate to get to a lower-ranked, a lower-security facility, for exactly these reasons. And so, what it looks like is they're rewarding her.
What it tells me is Todd Blanche is satisfied with what he's -- with what he heard from her, that there's something in her testimony that he likes, and that he believes.
COLLINS: Well, and we still don't know what that was.
HONIG: Right.
COLLINS: I do think you have a good point, because Todd Blanche went back for a second day of talks, which I thought actually said a lot--
HONIG: Yes.
COLLINS: --that he felt that he should return. We don't know what happened.
[21:10:00]
Jeff, the President was actually asked about this tonight, Is that information going to become public? And this is what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I don't know, because I haven't spoken about it. But he's a very talented guy, Todd Blanche, and a very straight shooter.
ROB FINNERTY, NEWSMAX HOST: Yes.
TRUMP: And I think he probably wanted to know, you know, just to get a feeling of it. Because we'd like to release everything, but we don't want people to get hurt that shouldn't be hurt.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Wonder what that says to you.
JEFF MASON, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, REUTERS: Well, number one, when he says, We'd like to release everything? They've had an opportunity to release everything, and they haven't taken it, and that's what's created the hubbub and the ruckus that has been dominating the news cycle for the last couple of weeks.
Number two, the President is frustrated that this story is staying and getting the same kind of headlines that it keeps getting. I wrote a piece, like a week or so ago, about the fact that as a public official, he's had superpowers of being able to get people to look elsewhere, or divert, and that hasn't worked with this case.
Well, it certainly doesn't help when his administration allows a move like this, for the prime person who's left with ties to this crime. So, until we know the reasoning for her move, it just keeps the story going. COLLINS: Yes, we don't really know what they get out of this, but we know what she could get out of it. We talked about a pardon or a reduction in sentence. But Elie, I mean, is there a world where this is what they could have gotten, at least for now, from the DOJ?
HONIG: Yes, so this, to me, is the big question, like, is this the only benefit? Assuming it's a benefit, and I believe all the facts indicate it is, is this it? Is this her reward? Is that she's going to get moved to a lower-security prison?
COLLINS: Is there any world where she was moved because of all the scrutiny and intense focus on her, for her own safety? Or is that -- I mean, to the target point that Sam made?
HONIG: I mean, it could be. Yes, I mean, that could be a reason, right? And also to protect her, if she's now seen as a cooperator, that could be. But whatever the intention is, this is a major reward for her.
And now what I want to see is, is that it? Or there's two ways, she can really get out of her sentence earlier. Absent any relief, she's going to be in prison another 13 years. She's 63-years-old right now. That means she's going to be in prison until she's 76.
And so A, will she get a pardon or a commutation? As we've seen all week, Trump has not put that to bed.
But B, and watch for this, DOJ has the power to go to a judge and write, what we call, the Rule 35 letter, which says to the judge, She cooperated productively after her sentencing, so we ask you to re- sentence her to lower.
I did it a couple times. It happens. It's a little bit unusual. But that's going to be the big decision that Pam Bondi and Todd Blanche need to be asked, Are you considering making that motion to a judge?
COLLINS: Well--
MASON: I'll also add that your point about him keeping the pardon possibility alive is spot-on, because he keeps saying, I haven't been asked about it. He's not saying, No. That's telling.
COLLINS: Because the President, you know, as two people who have covered him extensively--
MASON: Yes.
COLLINS: --he chooses his words carefully on stuff like that, and doesn't want to put himself in a box when he thinks he might exercise that position.
MASON: A 100 percent. He's leaving himself plenty of wiggle room there, if he chooses to pardon her.
COLLINS: Yes.
Jeff Mason. Elie Honig.
Sam Mangel, great to have you back as well. It was so helpful to hear the differences in these two facilities.
Up next for us here. The President is now blaming today's weak jobs report on a Biden appointee who, of course, two people who're in his Cabinet voted for, and has just fired her hours after those weak numbers were released, accusing her of rigging them to hurt him. Reaction, ahead.
[21:15:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, President Trump is defending his decision to fire the person who is in charge of releasing the nation's monthly jobs report, after the Bureau of Labor Statistics reported weak numbers and showed cracks in the U.S. economy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Mr. President, why did you fire the head of the Bureau of Labor Statistics?
TRUMP: Because I think her numbers were wrong. Just like I thought her numbers were wrong before the election. Days before the election, she came out with these beautiful numbers for Kamala. I guess Biden/Kamala. And she came out with these beautiful numbers trying to get somebody else elected.
Then right after the election, I think on the 15th, November 15th, she had an 8 or 9 hundred thousand dollar massive reduction, said she made a mistake. No, that woman -- that woman's numbers aren't right.
We're doing so well, I believe the numbers were phony, just like they were before the election. And they were other times. So, you know what I did? I fired her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: The President is attacking Erika McEntarfer, who is the Commissioner of the Bureau of Labor Statistics, after claiming, with no evidence and no basis, that she rigged the data to make him look bad.
To be clear, this is what we learned today. The U.S. job market slowed substantially in July, adding only 73,000 jobs last month, which is well below the expected 115,000 jobs.
But the really big shock that we got in the numbers was the two major revisions for the two months before that. The revised data shows the U.S. only added 19,000 jobs in May, and only 14,000 in June, a whopping 258,000 fewer jobs than the initial reports.
Now, these reports are put together by hundreds of people, not just a single Commissioner. There is no evidence of any wrongdoing or manipulation by the now-fired Commissioner.
And there's actually nothing strange about the BLS revising its data. They may not typically be as negative as these were today for the last two months, which were certainly a shock and raised a lot of questions about the U.S. economy. But revisions do happen all the time, regardless of the party of the president who is in office.
Initial job estimates are often based on incomplete data. They're usually revised twice after, when they have more thorough data.
The President, though, is still claiming that the numbers were rigged to make Republicans and him look bad. He suggested that the revisions to the job numbers were withheld, until after the 2024 election, to make former President Biden's economy look better, with a correction of more than 818,000 jobs.
[21:20:00]
But as our fact-checker, here at CNN, Daniel Dale, noted, That's not true. That 2024 revision that the President is talking about was actually announced last August, months before Election Day.
The Commissioner, that Trump fired today, was appointed by President Biden, that is true. But she was also confirmed by a Republican- controlled Senate, last year, 86 to eight.
We went to the archives. And listen to who two of those yes-votes were, at the time.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLERK: Mr. Rubio, Mr. Rubio? Aye.
Mr. Vance, Mr. Vance? Aye.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Secretary of State. And now the Vice President.
My political sources are here tonight, Jamal Simmons and S.E. Cupp at the table, along with CNN's Global Economic Analyst, Rana Foroohar.
And Rana, can I just start with you? Because I think a lot of people are looking at this, and wondering, maybe this was a fear, that they worried that this could happen, that President gets numbers he doesn't like him, and fires the person he blames for it.
But what did you make of the data that came out, and if this was in any way justified?
RANA FOROOHAR, CNN GLOBAL ECONOMIC ANALYST, GLOBAL BUSINESS COLUMNIST & ASSOCIATE EDITOR, FINANCIAL TIMES: So the data was a little surprising, but absolutely not unexpected.
A lot of us have been expecting that the economy would slow at some point soon. Just as a factual matter, if you discount the quick down and up blip of COVID, we're actually seven years overdue for recession by historical standards. So weakening jobs numbers at this point doesn't surprise me.
What does surprise me is that the President is politicizing yet another aspect of government functioning. First, it was the Fed, Jay Powell under pressure. Now it's the person that's actually putting out the data, which, by the way, he wasn't complaining when good jobs numbers came out, from the same agency, with the same Commissioner.
The thing that's very worrisome about this, this is what emerging markets do. This is what countries like China or Turkey do. When data comes in that officials don't like? The data has changed, and that's why those countries are uninvestable, in some cases, or frightening off investors. That is what is at risk here.
I've talked to several, several international investors, about the politicization of the basic functions, economic functions of government. This is what is going to drive them out of the U.S. And I'm not surprised to see the market reacting to all of this today. It's making people very worried.
COLLINS: Do you think the market is seeing through all of this?
FOROOHAR: I do. I think -- look, there's been a story in the market, really, since Liberation Day, that there is now an unprecedented and very unusual level of political risk in the U.S.
The U.S. used to be the gold standard, you know? Things like this didn't happen. You didn't have the President calling for the firing of a Fed chair, or getting rid of the person that is, you know, just -- whose career it is to crunch numbers. This is not a particularly political position. That's what happens in other countries. It's now happening here. That means volatility in the market, which we've already seen, and ultimately, I think it's going to mean investors are going to move their money elsewhere.
COLLINS: Yes, I mean, and S.E., just looking at this, there are a lot of headlines around Trump. Sometimes they're bombastic. It's -- is it a -- you know, how substantive is it? This is a huge deal that he fired her.
S.E. CUPP, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, HOST, "OFF THE CUPP" PODCAST, COLUMNIST, THE NEW YORK DAILY NEWS: It's a huge deal. And just for the record, they're not her numbers. He kept referring to these as her numbers. They're not hers. They're just the numbers.
But Trump loves to shoot the messenger. Proverbially, of course. He loves it. It's kind of like saying, Well, let's fire Isaac Newton for discovering gravity. Gravity is still there. Regardless of who discovered it, it still exists. These numbers still exist, regardless of who says it, or what Donald Trump does to change it.
But he wants a propaganda machine. He's very comfortable with that. And what's going to happen is people aren't going to trust anything that's coming out of this administration, because, as Rana said, He's politicized everything, most things that should not be political at all.
COLLINS: Well, and when you look at this, I mean, the U.S. economic numbers are, as Rana was pointing out, the gold standard. People use this. There is statistical parity for a reason, because people want to be able to rely on it. Whether it's good or whether it's bad, they want to know what it is.
JAMAL SIMMONS, CO-HOST, "TRAILBLAZE" PODCAST, FORMER DEPUTY ASSISTANT TO PRES. BIDEN: That's absolutely true. And it's also true that they go through great lengths, in the government, to keep the political staff's hands off of those numbers. Those numbers are mostly crunched by the career staff.
When I was at the Commerce Department, as a junior aide, a long time ago -- and I talked to one of the senior Commerce Department officials from the Biden administration tonight -- you did not see the Bureau of Economic Analysis GDP numbers until the morning they came out. The Secretary got them, the President and the Vice President. That was it. Nobody else saw them, and they got them a half an hour before they were released. They want to keep the political people out.
[21:25:00]
Because everybody in the world is looking at these numbers to figure out what they're going to do. And if you're in a company? 10 years ago, I was in a startup company. And we looked at census data as we were figuring out our marketing plans, because we needed to know where people were in the country. If that data is not reliable, how do you then take that to an investor and try to get your funding for your company?
COLLINS: I was kind of surprised to hear what Kevin Hassett said today, S.E. about this, when he was asked, and about the report overall. Kevin Hassett, obviously a well-liked, trusted adviser, economic adviser of the President's. He was there in round one. He's back this time.
This is what he had to say today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEVIN HASSETT, NATIONAL ECONOMIC COUNCIL DIRECTOR: The BLS has been revising numbers all over the place, in a way that makes it so that I don't think anybody really can trust that the numbers are right, whichever way they're going.
I think it is a good time for a fresh set of eyes to look at what the heck is going on, because the Labor numbers are so important. It be so important that people trust them and that they're not being revised all over the place all the time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUPP: Yes, right.
SIMMONS: Right. CUPP: Exactly, dude.
Yes, I mean, they've done this a lot. They rejected the OMB numbers. They've rejected all kinds of numbers that they didn't like. And that is creating the distrust, but that that's -- that's intentional.
Because what Trump does and what other authoritarian-leaning people do, is they try to consolidate power and trust. You can't trust the media. You can't trust intelligence. You can't trust law enforcement anymore. The only person you can trust is me.
And now you can't even trust math. Math has a new a new face to it, and it's Donald Trump.
COLLINS: Well--
CUPP: I don't know how long people are going to buy this, but I'm sure MAGA will.
COLLINS: Rana, my question was also, though, the White House has been talking about how hot the U.S. economy is, they've been touting these numbers. And I read this statement -- outside of the 2020 pandemic recession, job growth is running at the weakest pace since 2010.
What do these numbers actually tell us about how the economy is doing?
FOROOHAR: So, I think they tell us that we're probably in for a slowdown. This has been coming for a while.
If you pull back, the U.S. had the best post-COVID recovery of any country in the rich world, and really, almost any country. Period. We did really, really well. We had built up this incredible base. People had savings. Companies were doing well.
Then you got tariffs, then you get political risk, then you get the politicization of the Fed, then you get tariffs coming. Now we know what some of the numbers are, it's not good. And I think all of that has just been this gathering storm that is now hitting the markets.
But people have known that there was risk out there. One of the reasons that gold is at record levels is that people are worried. They don't see the dollar and the U.S. economy as being the safe haven that it once was.
COLLINS: Well, on that note, on a Friday, Rana--
CUPP: It's sobering.
COLLINS: Rana, great to have you. S.E., Jamal, as well. Everyone have a great weekend. Thank you so much for that.
CUPP: Whomp whomp.
COLLINS: Up next for us, another development from the President today, why he ordered nuclear submarines to be repositioned near Russia. I'm going to speak to his former National Security Adviser, John Bolton, for his insights ahead.
[21:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, President Trump is issuing a rare threat of nuclear escalation against Russia, saying that he's ordered two nuclear submarines to be repositioned, in response to, quote, Provocative statements made by Russia's former President, Dmitry Medvedev.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: He was talking about nuclear -- when you talk about nuclear, we have to be prepared, and we're totally prepared.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Trump first made this announcement online, saying this step was just in case Medvedev's Foolish and inflammatory statements are more than just that.
It was not immediately clear if Trump was referring to subs with nuclear weapon capabilities, or merely nuclear-powered subs.
Of course, the current Deputy Chairman of the Russia Security Council and former President has made a reference to -- had made a reference, on Thursday, to Russia's Soviet-era system, capable of launching retaliatory nuclear strikes, after Trump told him to quote, Watch his words.
The two have been trading verbal attacks since Monday, when Trump slashed his deadline for Vladimir Putin to end the war in Ukraine. There's been no sign that Putin is listening. However, last night, you saw Russia launching its deadliest single attack on Ukraine's capital this year, killing at least 31 people after striking an apartment block.
My source tonight is John Bolton, Trump's former National Security Adviser.
And Ambassador, it's great to have you here.
Because obviously the former President doesn't actually have the power to launch Russia's nuclear weapons here. I mean, he's, for people who don't know, he's basically the Kremlin's online troll in recent days.
But I wonder if you believe that President Trump's actions were warranted here.
JOHN BOLTON, FORMER TRUMP NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED NATIONS, AUTHOR, "THE ROOM WHERE IT HAPPENED: A WHITE HOUSE MEMOIR": No, I don't.
I think it's very risky business for a lot of reasons. Most significantly, it seems to reveal Trump doesn't really understand how our nuclear Navy works, and what their plan of operation is. As for Medvedev, it's true, he's a former Russian president and former Prime Minister, in fact, always subordinate to Vladimir Putin. Right now, the position he holds is equivalent to Deputy National Security Adviser in the United States. And it's just really very ill-advised to have the President responding to somebody like that. Whatever they're tweeting on, whatever subject, even if somebody should respond to him? It shouldn't be the President.
[21:35:00]
But more fundamentally, what Trump may not be understanding here, in which the Kremlin could be misreading, is how the ballistic missile nuclear submarines that we have operate, and how they function and serve basically as our second-strike capability, in the event of a nuclear war.
The Ohio-class submarines, the ones that carry the ballistic missiles, don't sit around in port. They're out in a complex, obviously highly classified schedule to -- on what are called extended deterrence patrols.
That is to say, they are, a sufficient number of them, are in position, right now, to retaliate against a Russian nuclear attack. That's why they're put out there, so they don't have to go anywhere. They're already there, and are hopefully undetectable, so that a Russian or, later, a Chinese first strike, can't take them out at the beginning.
So to say he's going to move those kinds of submarines anywhere indicates he doesn't know how they work right now.
COLLINS: Do you think anyone in his National Security team is discussing this with him?
BOLTON: I have no idea. I certainly know from my own experience that you could find a tweet coming out any hour of the day or night on some national security issue that came directly from Trump. So, it's possible that's what happened here. I hope somebody from the Pentagon, who understands the disposition of the nuclear force, explains this to Trump at some stage.
And as I said, while the ballistic missile submarines are core to our second-strike capability, they are also perfectly capable of being part of a first strike on Russia. So, you could see people in the Kremlin, obviously always nervous about our capabilities, believe that Trump is trying to -- trying to insinuate that he may be considering a first strike, which is even more dangerous.
COLLINS: Yes, well, and this is coming as his envoy, Steve Witkoff, who was in Gaza today, is going to Russia, I believe today. The President said he was going right after he left Gaza. The last visit that Witkoff made to Russia did not result in any concrete changes. Obviously, the war is still raging in Ukraine.
Do you expect a different outcome this time, potentially? BOLTON: No, I don't. I don't think Putin takes the threat seriously that Trump has been making about secondary sanctions, which would involve more sanctions, more tariffs, whatever, on countries like India and China that have been buying Russian oil and gas, contrary to U.S. and EU sanctions, because of the war in Ukraine.
Putin, for whatever Reason, thinks that he the Russians are winning in Ukraine, despite the horrific human cost. And obviously, after six months of trying to get a ceasefire, Trump has failed. No indication that's going to change.
COLLINS: Yes, we'll see if it does.
Ambassador John Bolton, great to have you. Thank you for your time tonight.
BOLTON: Thank you.
COLLINS: And speaking of that visit to Gaza, we saw Steve Witkoff there, on the ground, along with the U.S. Ambassador to Israel, as that hunger crisis has only been drawing more and more global condemnation, by the day.
We're going to get a reality check with what they saw on the ground from our sources, next. One of them was just in Gaza.
[21:40:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, President Trump says he's been briefed by his special envoy, Steve Witkoff, about what he saw as he spent several hours inside of Gaza today.
Witkoff, who was along with the U.S. Ambassador to Israel, Mike Huckabee, was given a highly-choreographed tour of an aid site that is operated by a U.S.-backed organization. They visited one of three of these controversial aid sites, where the United Nations alleges the Israeli military has killed hundreds of Palestinians trying to get food.
Just as Trump's envoy arrived, Palestinians near the site of Witkoff's visit say they were fired upon.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): As soon as Witkoff arrived in the area, there was random gunfire. The shooting intensified, along with drones and quadcopters in the air, and they started firing at people. Bodies are scattered all over the place. We can't survive like this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Officials in Gaza say at least three people were killed, and six others injured near the site. The Israeli Defense Forces says it has only fired warning shots at people who were moving towards its troops.
Right now, Israel is controlling the flow of aid and supplies into the territory. And according to officials in Gaza, more than a 160 people, including 92 children, have starved to death. Hamas says it is not going to renew ceasefire talks until enough aid gets in. Israel has accused them of stealing that aid.
My source tonight is Ted Chaiban, the Deputy Executive Director of Humanitarian Action and Supply Operations for UNICEF.
And it's great to have you here, because you just have been in Gaza yourself, I believe, now four times since this war started after Hamas attacked on October 7th.
Today, Steve Witkoff says the purpose of this was to give Trump, the President, a clear understanding of what is happening, and -- so they can craft an aid plan. The President said they'd be approving that after this visit by Steve Witkoff.
What do you think that they need to know the most?
TED CHAIBAN, UNICEF DEPUTY EXEC. DIR. FOR HUMANITARIAN ACTION & SUPPLY OPS: Look, the situation on the ground is horrendous. There's widespread hunger and starvation. One in three people in Gaza has not eaten in days, and the acute malnutrition threshold has exceeded famine levels.
[21:45:00]
On Tuesday, I was at a health center in Gaza City, and I saw acutely malnourished children who would have died, had they not reached the center where UNICEF and partners are making nutrition supplements available. I spoke to a mother who said she's somewhere (ph) she was gaunt, that she can't breastfeed her child.
And in the next room, there was children wounded by shrapnel up and down their abdomen and faces. Since the beginning of the war, over 18,000 children have been reported killed. That's 28 children per day. That's a classroom gone every day since the beginning of this war, 22 months ago.
The humanitarian pause is an opportunity to change the situation, but we need the condition on the grounds to be able to operate.
COLLINS: Yes.
CHAIBAN: We need all the gates, all the routes, to be open. The U.N. and the Humanitarian NGOs can address the situation, when the conditions on the ground are set to be able to address the situation.
COLLINS: Well, given what you just said, and -- just what you just said there, compared to what we saw from the Ambassador to Israel, Mike Huckabee, today. He was touting the work of the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation, the U.S.-backed group. It's been controversial. It's been limited in its capacity to deliver aid.
You saw today, he said, Hamas hates the GHF because it gets food to people without being looted by Hamas. Over 100 million meals served in two months.
Is that reflective of what you saw on the ground?
CHAIBAN: Look, the situation is so bad that you need all actors who can deliver aid in a principled way, that protects the civilians that come to get the aid, operating. The U.N. and the Humanitarian NGOs have experience, in places from Yemen, to Sudan, to Democratic Republic of Congo, to do this.
But what is needed is to get up to 400 to 500 trucks in daily. And it can't only be humanitarian trucks. You'll also need commercial traffic. You need enough fuel to be able to move the supplies. And you need not just food. You need nutrition supplements. You need to be able to get the health commodities in, and you need to be able to get fresh water to people. Right now, it's hot in Gaza.
COLLINS: Yes.
CHAIBAN: People in Gaza are living on four to five liters of water per day. So, you also need to be able to get so-called dual-use supplies and pipes fittings, so that you can repair the water system.
COLLINS: Ted Chaiban, thank you so much for coming on tonight to share what it is like, from a firsthand source on the ground in Gaza. Really appreciate your time.
CHAIBAN: Thank you.
COLLINS: Also, here is Michael Capponi, who is the Founder and President of GEM, the Global Empowerment Mission. His organization supports international aid missions, including in Gaza.
And I know that you were recently authorized to resume operations in Gaza. What is your biggest challenge that you're facing right now?
MICHAEL CAPPONI, FOUNDER & PRESIDENT, GLOBAL EMPOWERMENT MISSION (GEM): So, thank you for having me.
We work with an agency called COGAT. We've been working with them since the onset of the war. They are the coordinating body for the Israeli government. So when we have trucks that we need to bring in, we basically submit that, and then they deconflict it through another agency called CLA.
Right now, the big issue is -- that's why you see those -- I think there's approximately 1,000 trucks today at Kerem Shalom still that have--
COLLINS: Lined up outside--
(CROSSTALK) CAPPONI: Lined up, right? So everybody's blaming everybody. The real reason is there's not many routes that are available to go right now, because there's so many people that are so desperate that they're just getting in front of the roads, and they're just basically self-serving themselves off the trucks.
So, organizations have to make a decision now is until the market balances out, which is the most important topic that's never discussed, right? As he said earlier, there's no commercial markets anymore that are open. So, a bag of flour costs $10 pre-October 7th. You know what it costs today? $300 to $500. A Pampers, just a little bag of Pampers, is going for like $135 on the market right now. So when there's that much of a demand, people are just so desperate.
So, you have three different types of situation going on. You have the looting by gangs, black-market families, gangsters that are basically trying to take those expensive commodities and resell them. And then you have a whole bunch of hungry people.
COLLINS: Who are so desperate that they're rushing these food trucks.
I mean, then -- you see the IDF saying, Well, we have to fire these warning shots, they're putting our troops in danger.
But these people are, I mean, we're watching them, they're starving.
[21:50:00]
And one thing that stood out to me about -- you were talking about, airdrop systems, saying that those don't work, the peer-drop (ph) systems, those don't work, that this needs to be getting just directly to the people from these aid organizations.
CAPPONI: We have had two trucks looted in the whole history of us operating there. Imagine, in a year and three quarters. That's when there was market balance, and you could drive trucks too.
Now, the situation with GHF -- and let's forget about the military aspect of it, and the people that have been killed at the distribution points. Let's just talk about how many distribution points there are.
There's four distribution points, in a gigantic space like that. To give you context, in Ukraine, we've delivered 350 million meals since the war, we distribute to over 900 points per month. Imagine, 900 points per month, and they have-
COLLINS: But this is four points total.
CAPPONI: And they have four points total, with 2 million people, and we only support about 800,000 people.
COLLINS: Wow.
CAPPONI: So what happens is, when people are in camps, a mother that's with her children, there is no way she's going to leave those children and go walk 15 miles, or 10 miles, through a warzone where she could get killed just walking to go to that point. That's the reason why most non-profits want (ph) for that program, including the U.N.
So, like he said earlier, you have to let everybody do what they need to do. We're authorized now. And I believe that once there's more market balance, things are going to pan out, and it's going to be much easier. But we bring aid directly to the camp, and hand the box directly to people in their tents.
COLLINS: So they don't have to travel instead.
CAPPONI: So they don't have to travel.
COLLINS: Michael Capponi, obviously, a grave situation. Thank you for joining us, and please keep us updated on your efforts.
CAPPONI: Yes. And if you want to support us at globalempowermentmission.org, then that money will go immediately for our procurement.
COLLINS: Perfect. And we just showed that there, for people who are watching. Thank you so much for coming on. Really appreciate you.
CAPPONI: Thank you.
COLLINS: Up next for us here. The President started his week overseas, starting with new drama and questions about his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein. We're going to give you a look behind-the-scenes, right ahead.
[21:55:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Week, whether it was in Scotland or the White House, the President tried to contain the fallout over the Epstein files. Here's a look behind-the-scenes.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ON SCREEN TEXT: Monday, July 28.
TRUMP: Epstein was always a very controversial guy.
I never had the privilege of going to his island.
COLLINS: We're following breaking news here, in New York City tonight, where officials say a suspected shooter inside a Manhattan office building has been, quote, Neutralized.
ON SCREEN TEXT: Tuesday, July 29.
COLLINS: We just got word on Ghislaine Maxwell's response to that congressional subpoena seeking her testimony. They are willing to cooperate if that includes her being granted formal immunity for her testimony.
We heard from the House Oversight chair, James Comer, who said he didn't think it would be likely that anyone would want to grant immunity to someone who has been convicted of child sex trafficking.
REPORTER: Were some of the workers that were taken from you, were some of them young women?
TRUMP: That story has been pretty well out there, and the answer is yes, they were.
REPORTER: Did that include Virginia Giuffre?
TRUMP: I think she worked at the spa. He stole her.
COLLINS: You said Jeffrey Epstein was stealing young women from your spa. Did that raise alarm bells for you?
TRUMP: Be quiet.
ON SCREEN TEXT: Wednesday, July 30.
TRUMP: We've done very well with the EU deal, they say, the biggest trade deal ever made by far.
COLLINS: President Trump just ripped into Josh Hawley, calling him the second-tier senator from Missouri. In this lengthy Truth Social post, Trump went off on Josh Hawley, typically a pretty big ally of the White House's, because a key Senate Committee voted to advance a bill today that would ban stock trading for all lawmakers, presidents and vice presidents.
But despite Trump's criticism, this bill wouldn't even actually apply to him. Hawley has created a carve-out here for the President, where it would only apply to future presidents and vice presidents.
ON SCREEN TEXT: Thursday, July 31.
REPORTER: At the time, did you know why he was taking those young women, including Virginia, who was just 16?
TRUMP: No, I didn't know. I said if he's taken anybody from Mar-a- Lago, he's hiring or whatever he's doing, I didn't like it, and we threw him out. We said we don't want him.
COLLINS: Any extensions or deadlines that we should be expecting?
HOWARD LUTNICK, UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF COMMERCE: No extensions.
COLLINS: The White House has announced sweeping new tariffs for every country around the world. These new tariff rates are not going to go into effect at midnight tonight. This comes after the Commerce Secretary, Howard Lutnick, told me this evening that that August 1st deadline is firm.
[22:00:00]
Earlier this year, Virginia Giuffre died by suicide at her farm in Western Australia.
I want to bring in the members of Virginia Roberts Giuffre's family.
When you hear the word, Stolen, used to describe what happened to your sister, when she was recruited away and sex trafficked, I wonder what goes through your mind.
S. ROBERTS: She wasn't stolen. She was preyed upon.
COLLINS: If you could say something to the President, or someone who does have the power to pardon her, or reduce her sentence, for Ghislaine Maxwell?
What message you would want to get across?
A. ROBERTS: People who commit those crimes against someone deserve to feel those repercussions. They don't get to rest easy.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: Thanks so much for joining us.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts now.
