Return to Transcripts main page
The Source with Kaitlan Collins
TX GOP Follows Trump Demand To Redraw Maps, Gain More Seats; Epstein Victims Speak Out Amid Outrage Over Trump & DOJ Actions; GOP Rep. Faces Voters At Explosive Town Hall: "Vote Him Out." Aired 9-10p ET
Aired August 04, 2025 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Necessity is the mother of invention in Ukraine, but nothing can beat luck.
Nick Paton Walsh. CNN. Kyiv, Ukraine.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
JOHN KING, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Tonight, the major political battle that's playing out in Texas, but has major implications for the rest of the country.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
The Governor of Texas just ordered the arrest of elected Democrats. The State's Attorney General is talking about, quote, Hunting down his political opponents.
And Democrats, in places like New York, just declared, in the words of the Governor there, that this is, quote, A war.
The standstill that is underway in Texas tonight, but with ramifications nationwide, centers run a plan to deliver President Trump five more Republican seats in Congress, ahead of the midterm elections next year.
And what happens in Texas could very well decide which party holds power, here on Capitol Hill, where a narrow and often pretty divided Republican majority in the House has repeatedly frustrated the Trump White House.
The memories, of also what happened after Republicans lost the House, when President Trump was in office, the first time, are still very much top of mind for a lot of his senior aides. That's why this Texas clash is something the President himself has openly championed, for nearly a month.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I think we'll get five, and there could be some other states we're going to get another three or four or five in addition. Texas would be the biggest one, and that would be five.
REPORTER: Are you calling in for a complete redrawing congressional map ahead of next year?
TRUMP: No, no, I, just a very simple redrawing, we pick up five seats. But we have a couple of other states where we'll pick up seats also.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: That was the President, just a few weeks ago.
Now, tonight, almost all Democrats in the legislature there have left the state, over the weekend, in Texas. They're trying to block an effort to redraw the state's congressional map, in the middle of a decade, which is unusual.
But Texas requires at least two-thirds of the members to be present before there can be any votes in the legislature. This sort of move has been around since 1870. It happened several years ago. We've seen these things play out.
This time, though, Republican leadership is wasting no time in getting law enforcement involved.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DUSTIN BURROWS, (R) TEXAS STATE HOUSE SPEAKER: I have signed the civil arrest warrants. We will work with DPS to locate members. I saw, for instance, there is one member who said that they're doing a fundraiser, here in Austin tomorrow. And I've sent that fundraising letter to DPS, and said they should be invited to attend as well.
(LAUGHTER)
BURROWS: We'll see how that goes forward.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: This all comes as now Democratic governors are openly talking about changing laws, in their states, to counteract whatever happens in Texas.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. KATHY HOCHUL (D-NY): We are at war. And that's why, the gloves are off, and I say, Bring it on.
GOV. JB PRITZKER (D-IL): All bets are off. Everything's got to be on the table.
GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM (D-CA): Everything's on the line here. It's not a gross exaggeration. I feel that in my bones.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Starting us off tonight is Republican Texas State Representative, Brian Harrison.
And it's great to have you here, sir.
Because, as I mentioned, redistricting usually happens once per decade when the census comes out. So why are Texas Republicans doing this now?
BRIAN HARRISON, (R) TEXAS STATE HOUSE: Because it's the right thing. Quite frankly, it's something I think we should have done already and had it in the rear view mirror.
I mean, look, one thing that you said that I agree with is the stakes really couldn't be higher. I mean, it is quite literally true, given the razor-thin margins in Congress, and what could be coming up in the midterm elections, that our redistricting efforts in Texas could decide whether or not the United States Congress falls into the hands of the Liberal Democrat Party.
And as far as I'm concerned, the State of Texas, and every elected Republican in the State of Texas, should be doing everything we can, to make sure that that does not happen, so that we can support the Republican priorities, we can support President Trump's agenda.
And quite frankly, there's a lot of sound and fury coming out of elected Republican leadership in Texas tonight. But quite frankly, we could have done things, in the last several days, to thwart the Democrats' plans to leave. The Democrats were on the floor, four days ago. We had the Democrats. We had the maps. We had a quorum.
This is a little bit not serious, what we're seeing, right now, coming out of the Speaker of the Texas House, who let them adjourn on Wednesday, so they could go and strategize with Hakeem Jeffries on how they could flee the state. I want bold actions, I want them to be arrested, and there should be severe and serious consequences.
[21:05:00]
But one thing I will grapple with is the idea that Democrats are now trying to come up with a way to counteract whatever Texas may or may not do, and the height -- it is the height of irony that these radical Democrats are fleeing to Illinois to hide behind Governor Pritzker.
I mean, the only thing that Governor Pritzker has any expertise on, it's how to gerrymander a state. He may have the most gerrymandered state in all of the Union. Just one statistic on that. Republican voters in Illinois make up 45 percent of the vote. But the maps Governor Pritzker approved, and the Democrat legislature there only give Republicans 15 percent of the congressional delegation. So that's far more--
COLLINS: But can I ask you-- HARRISON: --aggressive than the maps we're talking about, here in Texas.
COLLINS: There's a lot to unpack there, and I want to get into that.
HARRISON: Yes.
COLLINS: But you just said we should have done this sooner.
HARRISON: Yes.
COLLINS: What is wrong with the map Texas drew four years ago?
HARRISON: I didn't say there's anything wrong with the map Texas drew, four years ago. But in the last four years, though--
COLLINS: But you're changing it.
HARRISON: Well, I think we should change it.
The laws have changed. The demographics have changed. The voting trends in the State of Texas have changed and, by the way, all bad for Democrats, especially down with the Hispanic vote down near the Rio Grande Valley, in the southern parts of the states, that are fleeing the Liberal Democrat-failed policies, in droves, for the policies championed by President Trump, and Republicans, across the country, and here in the great State of Texas.
So yes, Texas should do everything we can, everything in our power, to make sure Congress doesn't fall into the hands of the Liberal Democrats in the upcoming midterm elections.
COLLINS: But do you have a problem -- if typically this only happens after the census comes out? Obviously, we see other states do this all the time. You mentioned what happened in Illinois, and that's a fair point to make there.
HARRISON: Yes.
COLLINS: But if that's how it happens, are you fine with other states, Democrat-run states changing this, in the middle of the decade as well?
HARRISON: Well, it's their prerogative to do it. But, I mean, I do have to point out that I don't know of any, just about any major media, CNN included, that dragged Governor Pritzker on TV, and ask him to justify the gerrymandering in his state, or California, where I'm looking at right now, Republicans have 40 percent of the vote in California, but they only give 17 percent of their seats to Republicans. Same thing in New York.
COLLINS: Yes. Well I heard you--
HARRISON: I mean, these are more gerrymandered than anything we're contemplating down here, in the State of Texas.
COLLINS: I don't know if you could say more, but--
HARRISON: And quite frankly, what we're talking about doing is legal. It's constitutional. It's permissible.
COLLINS: But certainly--
HARRISON: We should do it.
COLLINS: Well, what you're saying is, it's bad when Democrats are gerrymandering. I mean, that's obviously what Republicans are being accused of doing.
But you say, that no one's covered it. I mean, CNN certainly covered it. I heard you say this earlier, so I looked this up. We've written many articles about it, and also it's been talked about on TV. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: In states, though, like Illinois, Oregon, Maryland, Democrats are also engaged in gerrymandering congressional districts.
DAVID CHALIAN (ph), CNN SENIOR VICE PRESIDENT, WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF AND POLITICAL DIRECTOR: And, as a result, Democrats have really tried to put Republicans in difficult places, particularly in downstate Illinois.
BRIAN TODD (ph), CNN CORRESPONDENT: One possible reason for Kinzinger's decision, his Illinois district is being redrawn.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: So I just want to be clear, we have covered it when Democrats gerrymander--
HARRISON: Well, I--
COLLINS: --as well, sir.
HARRISON: Well, Kaitlan, I know. I got to tell you, I'm incredibly flattered the amount of time CNN must have spent fact-checking what I said earlier today, to come up with those clips. But if those are the best clips you can find, then my points stand, I was proven correct, because at no point was he asked to justify those maps.
But here's the point. It wasn't that I was saying good, bad, right or wrong, whether they could or should or shouldn't. The point is, what we're talking about in the State of Texas is something that is constitutional, it's legal. The Supreme Court has said we can do things like this.
And my main criticism of the governor -- the Liberal Democrat governors in California, New York, Illinois and other places, isn't so much the weighing in on the merits of their maps. It's the rank hypocrisy and the fake outrage. These Democrats, my Democrat colleagues that fled the state, to go hide behind Governor Pritzker, they're not mad that states are engaging in redistricting to maximize partisan political advantage. What they're mad about, but they won't say it, they're mad that a Republican state is stepping up and doing it. That's the real problem, and that's the hypocrisy--
COLLINS: Yes.
HARRISON: --that I'm trying to point out here.
COLLINS: But to the point, I mean, Governor Abbott's not here right now. I'm not questioning him about it. Obviously, we'd love to have him on to talk about this.
HARRISON: Yes.
COLLINS: But you're here talking about it.
HARRISON: Yes.
COLLINS: We're still covering it, is the point.
HARRISON: Yes.
COLLINS: So I don't think you can say that--
HARRISON: Yes.
COLLINS: --it's not being covered.
To the point that you just made, a few moments ago, about why this is happening. You said very clearly that it's because you want to make sure Republicans maintain a majority, here in Washington, in the House.
HARRISON: Yes.
COLLINS: Your Governor, though, cited a letter from the Justice Department, saying that four Texas districts were unconstitutionally racially gerrymandered, as to why this is happening.
So, who should people believe about why this is underway? You or the Governor?
HARRISON: Well -- well, I'm here to speak for myself. And what I care about is working to make sure that the will, the interest, the desires, and quite frankly, what the voters of Texas deserve to have happen, which is their elected Republican legislature stand up and do what they want, which is make sure the State of Texas or is the line -- we're the line in the sand for the future of the country, there's no doubt about that. As goes Texas, so goes the nation.
[21:10:00]
If we ever lose Texas to the Democrats, the Republicans will never have the White House again. So, it's incumbent upon us, people like me in the legislative branch -- if you want to ask the Governor a question about what motivated him to do something, feel free to ask him.
COLLINS: I mean, he called this special session.
HARRISON: But I can speak for myself, as a member of the legislature--
COLLINS: So I do think it matters why--
HARRISON: Well -- well the way special sessions--
COLLINS: --you're going into that special session to vote on this, right?
HARRISON: Well, the way special sessions work in Texas, he's allowed to put any agenda item on the call he wants. But it is incumbent upon the legislature to enact laws the way we see fit, based on what we believe is in the best interest of the voters that sent us down here.
I mean, Texas is no different. The job of the -- the job of legislating and writing laws, and that includes redistricting, resides within the legislative branch, and that's where I'm an official, here in the State of Texas. And I know this is what the voters of Texas want.
COLLINS: But can I ask on that front?
HARRISON: And there's no doubt in my mind.
COLLINS: On that front though, of--
HARRISON: Yes.
COLLINS: --of your responsibility and what you're doing here. Why is it your responsibility, as a State Representative, to make sure Republicans in Washington hold the majority?
HARRISON: Because the hundreds of thousands of Texans I represent, that's exactly what they want. Because they know that the Liberal Democrat Party is the party of bigger government, bigger regulations, less freedom, and they want what the Republican Party stands for, which is more limited government, individual freedom, secure borders, elections that are secure. That's what my voters sent me to Austin to do, and it's what I'm committed to doing down here.
And then one thing, back to this point of why we're doing it, it's not that we're raising the stakes and the Democrats are coming back. I got to go back to this. The Democrats have been doing this for over a decade, and Republican states are just now catching up.
And just one statistic that you got to let me say here, is that 10 years ago, when the Republicans won the U.S. Congress with only 1 percent of the popular vote, we had a 45 percent electoral margin in the U.S. House, what -- compared to just last year--
COLLINS: Yes, I don't--
HARRISON: --where we won with a bigger percentage of the popular vote, right?
COLLINS: I think--
HARRISON: But only three seats.
COLLINS: --Republicans--
HARRISON: And that's because Democrats have been gerrymandering like crazy, for the last 10 years.
COLLINS: But it's -- you can't just say it's just Democrats. You can certainly say Democrats do it, you pointed out with Illinois, and that's fair. But also Republicans do it too. And to that point, a lot of Democrat state--
HARRISON: Well I can say they didn't -- I can say the data proves--
COLLINS: Actually, hold on, sir.
HARRISON: --that they've been doing it more than Republicans.
COLLINS: A lot of Democrat-run states, I looked at this--
HARRISON: Yes.
COLLINS: --are constrained by independent, non-partisan redistricting commissions that were championed by Democrats.
HARRISON: Yes.
COLLINS: So wouldn't that undercut your argument?
HARRISON: Not at all. I mean, of course, the Democrats of the party are giving more power to unelected bureaucrats. But look how that worked out in California. By any objective measure, the unelected bureaucrats that--
COLLINS: They're citizen-run redistricting commissions that are independent.
HARRISON: Citizen-run is the same thing as unelected, to me. And, quite frankly, California is more gerrymandered than the maps that we're talking about today in Texas.
So, I'm not saying that Republicans haven't engaged in partisan redistricting. I'm simply saying that over the last decade, Democrats have done it much -- to a much greater and a much more aggressive rate than Republican states, like Texas. And it's time that Texas gets in the game and does its part, and that's what I'm fighting for down here. We've got to get this done.
COLLINS: But your argument is just that you should all do it? Not that when Democrats do it, it's bad, so when you do it, it's right? HARRISON: Well, what I'm saying is, if it's what the voters of our state want us to do, which I firmly believe that it is, especially when you look at the fact that they reelected President Trump with a 14-point landslide in Texas, it's something that we are allowed to do.
And here's the reality. The Constitution of the United States lets us do this. The Constitution of the great State of Texas lets us do this. And the Supreme Court of the state of -- the United States has weighed in, and said that is absolutely permissible to draw maps based on maximizing partisan advantage.
COLLINS: But on that point--
HARRISON: All the other Democrat states are doing it.
COLLINS: --you're saying--
HARRISON: The State of Texas should as well.
COLLINS: You're saying this is what voters want. But three of these districts are Democrat-held--
HARRISON: Yes.
COLLINS: --Democrat-held districts that would be turned into Trump districts.
HARRISON: Yes.
COLLINS: So, aren't those voters who want Democrats representing them, because that's what they voted for?
HARRISON: Well, and they'll have a chance to campaign on that.
COLLINS: But you're now turning them into Trump districts?
HARRISON: They'll have a chance to campaign on that.
And if you look -- I mean, I'm happy to go down state by state, I can tell you, we are giving Democrats, even under these new maps, more of an electoral advantage than California, Illinois and New York give to Republicans under their current gerrymandered map.
So, we are not even talking about the State of Texas being as aggressive as Democrat states like, ironically enough, Illinois. I mean, there's no way to overstate that. Illinois has been way more aggressive at suppressing, if you want to call it that, which is what the terms I'm hearing all the time. The Republican share--
COLLINS: So you think that Governor Abbott should be more like Governor Pritzker, basically?
HARRISON: That's exactly not what I'm saying. It's the -- no, it's the legislature that right -- we had this whole discussion, separation of powers. It's the legislative branch in the State of Texas that gets to write the maps. The governor only has the choice to whether to put agenda items on the call, and then he can veto it if it's something that he doesn't like.
But it's on the legislature, the House of Representatives, the People's House, because we are the elected officials most closely connected to the 30 million Texans that we're proud to serve and represent. This is what the people of Texas want, and we should get this done.
COLLINS: State Representative Brian Harrison, thanks for joining tonight.
HARRISON: Good to be with you, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: This fight in Texas, as I mentioned a moment ago, and as the State Representative said there, could have huge implications, coast to coast, in this fight for control of Congress. You've seen Democratic governors coming out, from New York to California, saying, If Texas Republicans go ahead and do this, we are also going to do this in our states.
In Washington, the House Democratic Leader, Hakeem Jeffries, has come out in defense of those Texas Democrats who left the state, and against the Governor.
[21:15:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES (D-NY): Governor of Texas is out of his mind. There is no basis to charge these House Texas Democrats who have refused, righteously, to at the moment, vote on an extraordinary map that would hurt their constituents that they are privileged and sworn to represent, right now. Governor Abbott is making idle threats. He is all hat, no cattle.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My Democratic sources on this are a pair of Texas Democrats who serve together in the U.S. House, but would potentially have to run against each other, next year, under these new maps, if they get approved. Congressman Lloyd Doggett and Greg Casar are here.
And it's great to have you both.
I want to ask you both this question, because in this map, the two of you could end up running against each other. Will you both -- are you -- do you both plan to do that if this map, which it seems like it will be, is approved by the Texas State Legislature?
REP. LLOYD DOGGETT (D-TX): Well, I think we both have made our commitment that we don't want the Republicans pitting us against each other. We're turning the spotlight on Trump and the wrongs that have been committed.
I've said, since Austin is the only town I've ever called home, and I've already filed with the FEC to run in the district that still has two-thirds of the people that I represent today, that I wanted to represent that district.
But my focus is not on the what-if might happen in the future. My focus is on what if we give Trump the power to completely change the composition of the House, in order to stay in power.
COLLINS: And Congressman, what is your response to what you just heard from the Republican State Representative there, Brian Harrison, on basically the justification for doing this, saying that Democrats have done it effectively, so Republicans are going to try to do it more effectively?
REP. GREG CASAR (D-TX): I think what the Representative clearly failed to mention is that the independent Brennan Center notes that Republicans have gerrymandered 16 seats nationwide, net, against Democrats.
And Mr. Harrison also failed to mention that it's been Republicans that have blocked every single attempt, at the congressional level, to ban gerrymandering, nationwide.
Racial gerrymandering and extreme gerrymandering is a Republican affair. And now, what Democrats are left with is the concern of whether we unilaterally disarm, or fight back, and that's where we're fighting back.
And then, critically, you did not hear a word, out of Mr. Harrison's mouth, about lowering costs for Texans, or providing relief to the Texans that were just devastated by these floods, or about addressing the fact that Texas has the highest uninsured rate in America.
He clearly is just carrying Donald Trump's water, and trying to cover up for Donald Trump's corruption and crimes, instead of serving everyday Texans. And I apologize to the viewers of this network that they had to listen to so much lies, and so much misinformation, in that short segment.
COLLINS: And Congressman Doggett, on that front. Obviously, the reason we had him on is to hear from him on that front, and to hear what Republicans are doing. Because the belief at the White House is, Yes, Democrats have left the state, they're protesting this, but this is actually going to get passed. They don't have the votes to, ultimately, to block it. Obviously they can delay it or stall it.
When you hear that, though, and you hear what the Governor of New York is saying, Kathy Hochul, that she believes Democrats are at war here, over redistricting, do you think that states, like New York and California, should fight back by redrawing maps of their own?
DOGGETT: Well, President Trump has been clear that he's declared war on America, when it comes to using these gerrymandering schemes.
And I think Mr. Harrison was at least candid about the fact that this map was not -- is not his. There wasn't any great awakening, in the Republican Party, that said, Let's have some more gerrymandering to catch up with Democrats. No, this was strictly a Trump map. It is not even an Abbott map. It is Donald Trump, sending his orders, to his minions in Texas, to do whatever they need to do, to make whatever threats they need to make, to engage in intimidation, to assure that they get a map that will deliver him five new Republicans.
And what that means -- and Greg was so correct in what he said about this. But what that means is there will be five people up there, instead of five Democrats, five people who don't believe in protecting women's health.
I had the first reproductive health hearing, here on Saturday, and to hear the story of women who wanted to have babies but were restricted by these Republican laws, and almost lost their lives when they had miscarriages and the like? It's heartbreaking. And that's what's at stake.
[21:20:00]
These are things that affect Americans in their daily life. When people, in three months from now, go out to get their Affordable Care Act policy, and they find it costs 75 percent more, because of the big, ugly bill? That's what Trump wants to keep. When we need to change it? We will be five short, if they are successful here, and if he continues to carry this to Missouri, to Florida, to other states, to add to his margin.
COLLINS: Congressman Casar, do you think that that's going to end up happening here? Because I do think it's important to note, this isn't just something that the President's team wants to happen in Texas. They do want this to happen in Missouri. Florida governor, Ron DeSantis, said he might take a look at this as well.
CASAR: This is a five-alarm fire for our democracy. Donald Trump is the most corrupt president in American history. And he has no plan for winning the upcoming midterm elections, so he essentially is demanding that his cronies rig those elections for him, in this corrupt scheme.
That's why I'm so proud of the Texas Democrats who are showing up the entire nation what it looks like, to fight, by going out across the country. We need everyone viewing at home, across America, to say, Even if we may have our differences, on some issues, at the end of the day, we should have the voters pick their politicians, not have politicians pick their voters. Donald Trump should not get to pick who your member of Congress is.
And what's really important about what's happening, here in Austin, is that by trying to merge my district, with Congressman Doggett's district, it's ultimately a violation of the Voting Rights Act of 1965. It disenfranchises the Latino voters that have a protected district, here in Central Texas.
And if Donald Trump is allowed to shred the Voting Rights Act, here in Austin, he wants to spread that across America, just like you mentioned, Kaitlan, in Missouri or in Louisiana, or who knows where else.
COLLINS: Yes, and I'm sure we'll see legal fights play out. But this map could still be in place by next midterms.
But Congressman Doggett, on that front. Does Brian Harrison have a point when he says, Well, look at Illinois, and their 13th District, and how it's drawn. We have a picture of it, I believe. Saying, This very interestingly carved district is happening in Illinois, why can't it happen in Texas?
DOGGETT: Well, they had their opportunity to gerrymander however they wanted when the last census was completed, and they did a pretty good job of protecting all their members, so that out of 38 members in Texas, we didn't have many seats in which maybe only one in which we could challenge them. This is not the result of what happened in Illinois, at the last census. What it is, is a reaction to Trump's order.
And we applaud what Governor Newsom is doing. I would like to see non- partisan citizen commissions, all over the country. But it can't be that you have fairness only in the Democratic states, and extreme gerrymandering to serve a President's interest in states like Texas.
And so, the action in California is important. It's important to do it in some other states. We cannot turn over this House to more compliant Republicans, just because Donald Trump wins the election this year, instead of next year.
COLLINS: Congressmen Lloyd Doggett, and Greg Casar, it's great to have you both on, especially just given--
DOGGETT: Thank you.
COLLINS: --the dynamic this could set up for both of you. Thanks for your time tonight.
CASAR: Thank you very much, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: And tonight, we're less than three hours from a midnight deadline when it comes to grand jury files in the Jeffrey Epstein case. Survivors are now weighing in. One of them is accusing the Justice Department of political warfare.
[21:25:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: We're less than three hours tonight from a midnight deadline, for the Justice Department to reply to a judge's questions, about why the Jeffrey Epstein grand jury testimony should be released. This comes as two of his victims are condemning that request, in new court filings tonight.
Both victims are anonymous. But one of them is accusing the Justice Department of, quote, "Political warfare." The other says the DOJ and the FBI are, quote, "Protecting... wealthy men." Neither is asking the judge to keep the transcripts under seal, but they're urging him to take precaution in concealing the identities of the victims.
My sources tonight are:
CNN's Chief Legal Affairs Correspondent, Paula Reid.
Former Deputy Assistant Attorney General, Tom Dupree.
And former federal prosecutor, Shan Wu.
Paula, what else are we hearing from these victims?
PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Kaitlan, I'm so glad you're taking the time to hear from these victims, because we don't want all the attention just to be on the perpetrators. And here, they have a very clear message. They want more transparency, but they feel like the government has disrespected them.
They make it clear they're not upset with the judge, but they are upset with the ones, quote, "Asking to release these transcripts," the Justice Department, "of which the victims are not privy" to what is in those transcripts, but the government has "concluded that there is nothing more to see on the files they hold. Yet no one has seen them, but them."
And these victims go on to say, the government is protecting third- parties, wealthy men, by focusing on scrubbing their names off these files. They even call out President Trump specifically, saying that he's using agents to protect his identity and other high-profile individuals.
Look, it's clear they don't trust the Trump Justice Department. One victim makes a note saying, Clearly, the Justice Department is more interested in talking to a convicted sex trafficker, Ghislaine Maxwell, than talking to victims. And in the end, they just say, Release it all. Do the appropriate redactions, but just release it and let us heal.
And over the next 24 hours, we expect we will likely hear from more victims. They have until tomorrow to weigh in.
COLLINS: OK. So, if we're going to hear from more, and you're a judge and you're listening to something like that, as compelling as that, from these people, Tom, how much does this weigh on the judge, do you think?
TOM DUPREE, FORMER DEPUTY ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL: I think it's going to have a very significant impact.
Look, the judge, right now, is really representing the victims, in some sense. And to Paula's point, I mean, no one is really in the court, no lawyers are really in there, advocating for the victims. They're speaking in their own voice. They're telling the judge, the immense personal consequences if their names were to appear.
[21:30:00]
They don't know what's in there. They don't know if, all of a sudden, tomorrow, the newspapers are going to be filled with their name, identifying themselves in just unbelievably horrific personal terms that they were a victim of Epstein.
So, this is their one chance to tell the judge, Be very careful, be very thoughtful, be very cautious, if you choose to allow these to be released, to make sure that you don't further injure us and cause further grievous injury to us, the victims.
COLLINS: So they're saying, Be careful.
But we'll see ultimately what happens here. We'll see if the transcripts do get released.
But Shan, let me ask you about something else that's coming out tonight, and Paula can tell us her reporting on this, which is the Attorney General is now ordering prosecutors to start a grand jury investigation, into these accusations about members of the Obama administration basically manufacturing intelligence on Russia's election interference, who Russia wanted to win the election.
It's now this -- essentially investigation now, what does this -- where does this go, do you think, and something that has been very well-worn and investigated already?
SHAN WU, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Probably go the same route that John Durham's multi-year investigation went, which is nowhere. But they can certainly reopen what they want to reopen. They'll probably have to start with Durham's investigation. I know there's little bit declassified, new information there they can take a look at.
But this is so well-worn, I mean, I can't imagine that there's anything that can come with this, not to mention the statute of limitation problems.
COLLINS: But is it something, Paula--
REID: Big problem.
COLLINS: --is it something that -- I mean, yes, but I mean, we heard -- we had James Clapper, on the show, the other week. He said he's -- he's lawyered up because he's worried about what this could mean for him, personally. It's not clear they're going after him here, but we'll see.
But what -- I mean is this -- how do you view this, from what you're hearing, from inside the DOJ?
REID: With a lot of skepticism. And this story broke just minutes after we got these first letters from victims.
It's unclear the statute of limitations, what would still be in the statute of limitations, how John Durham, of all people, would have missed this, how all of this ground that has been so well-trotted would have omitted something of significance.
This feels, on its face, like an effort to appease the boss, who's very upset about the handling of the Epstein matter, and how that has caused this political firestorm. And it's very rare when the President can't change the conversation. This is another effort. But so far, I haven't seen any there-there.
COLLINS: Tom, what do you think?
DUPREE: Yes, I haven't really seen anything that really justify reopening this.
They said, Well, we went, found some documents in a bag, there's some documents in the closet, so let's reopen it. And then Tulsi Gabbard made a referral and said that she thinks that Obama administration officials might have kind of shaded the intelligence a bit.
Number one, I don't think--
COLLINS: Trump accused him of treason.
DUPREE: Well, he did. And look, I guess, number one, I don't see anything that suggests that there was criminal activity here. I mean, could there have been an egregious misjudgment? Possibly. Does that cross the line into criminality? I'm not sure. The statute of limitations? Huge obstacle, I don't know how they get around that.
But look, I think it's pretty clear that Trump wants to make sure that every so often we go back, we look at the origins of the Russia hoax, and maybe they'll find something.
WU: Yes, I think the real question is going to be whether anyone takes the Fifth. I mean, that's the real interesting legal question to me. And I really think they should all take the Fifth. Take the Fifth.
COLLINS: Why?
WU: Because there's always the danger, especially with this DOJ, that you could be caught in a perjury trap. Something that's supposedly inconsistent, now you face new charges, 1,001 misrepresentations.
But if they just take the Fifth? Sure, tons of speculation, people say, You must be guilty, you're taking the Fifth. They're going to speculate that anyway. There's no amount of testimony you're going to give that's going to put an end to that. So just do the smart legal thing--
DUPREE: Spoken like a criminal defense lawyer.
REID: Yes, that's a really good point, Shan.
COLLINS: Yes, who wants to save (ph)?
Shan Wu. Tom Dupree. Paula Reid. Great to have you all here.
Up next. We have new reporting on how President Trump decided to fire the Bureau of Labor Commissioner who put out a report that he didn't like the numbers on. Our insiders are here next, on the White House's latest justification.
[21:35:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, President Trump has still been fuming over those jobs numbers that came out, last week, showing signs of cracks in the U.S. economy.
As we're learning more tonight about what was behind his decision to fire the official, who was responsible for putting out such crucial economic data. Our sources are telling CNN that Trump previously had complained, behind-the-scenes, about the Labor Statistics chief, Erika McEntarfer, mainly because President Biden had appointed her to that position, though she was confirmed on a wide bipartisan basis.
But until Friday, the President did not believe he had a reason to dismiss her. After that jobs report came out though, the President told his advisers he wanted her out. That's according to two White House officials who told CNN that they don't believe that anyone took issue with that decision.
The administration has produced zero evidence, however, to back up the President's claims that those numbers were rigged. It's notable, given that he has an issue with these numbers now, put out by McEntarfer for, when he certainly didn't days before the 2024 election.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Nationwide -- this just came out. Listen to this. You got to study these numbers, right? Does anybody have a pencil? Please take it down. Nationwide, the economy created, this is the lowest number in years, a pitiful 12,000 jobs last month. Whoa.
(BOOING)
TRUMP: And when they revise it downward in a few weeks, it will be much lower than that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: A report put out by the team behind Erika McEntarfer, who was fired on Friday.
My economic source tonight, Lael Brainard, who served as the Director of the White House National Economic Council under President Biden.
And my White House insiders, Jeff Mason and Jasmine Wright are also here.
[21:40:00]
When you see what happened on Friday. I mean, obviously the President has touted the numbers that were put out by this same Commissioner previously. Now that he's in office, the justification has been that the numbers were amiss. What do you make of that?
LAEL BRAINARD, FORMER WHITE HOUSE NATIONAL ECONOMIC COUNCIL DIRECTOR, FORMER FEDERAL RESERVE VICE CHAIR: Well, look, I think firing the official statistics head when you don't like the official statistics is troubling on so many members. And that, of course, is exactly what happened.
Those job numbers were bad. They suggest that the Trump economy is actually seeing a hit to employment from his very high tariff levels. And it suggests that the labor market is turning over.
And to turn around and fire the messenger, when those job numbers reflect policies that he put in place, is very troubling, and it just raises questions about what the person that he puts in place to replace her, whether we'll be able to depend on those numbers as we have always in the past.
COLLINS: And he says he'll announce whoever that replacement is the next few days. We haven't seen that name yet.
Jeff, I do want you to listen though. McEntarfer gave a speech, actually, earlier this year, in January, in Atlanta, talking about the importance of the work that she and her team did.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ERIKA MCENTARFER, BUREAU OF LABOR STATISTICS COMM. (FIRED BY TRUMP FRIDAY): The Bureau of Labor Statistics produces some of the most closely-watched economic indicators in the nation. When the BLS releases key data on employment, unemployment and inflation, it moves markets, because it is some of the most timely and accurate information on economic conditions that the Federal Reserve policymakers and businesses have.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: The question that critics have here, and the fear is that whoever he replaces, they won't be able to rely on the data, as anyone from either party has done previously.
JEFF MASON, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, REUTERS: Yes, and that's what Lael was suggesting just now, too, and the two of us were talking earlier a little bit about that agency.
It's not political. The people who are doing the work, that she was just referring to in that clip, are not a bunch of politically- appointed people from various administrations. It's a group of government officials who deal with numbers, right, and deal with numbers that are very tricky and yet also very, very important for the markets, as she was just saying.
So, bringing politics into it, in the way that the President has, by firing her, and by choosing somebody who may or may not raise questions about whether or not he or she is loyal to him, or to the facts, is a shift, and is -- it may have an impact there as well.
COLLINS: And this is happening while a lot of lawmakers are back in their districts. Obviously, we'll see what the fallout is from that, and how they feel about it.
I want you to listen, though tonight, Jasmine, in Nebraska, a very tense town hall with Congressman Mike Flood. He's Republican. It was -- this is from the start to the end. I just want everyone to take a little listen to what this sounded like.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MIKE FLOOD (R-NE): I want to go right into this bill, because I know this is something a lot of people have questions about. And quite frankly, from where I sit, there's been a lot of misinformation out there about the bill.
(CROWD SHOUTING)
FLOOD: OK.
(CROWD SHOUTING)
FLOOD: These are the other important parts to the one big, beautiful bill.
(CROWD CHANTING "TAX THE RICH")
FLOOD: Next slide please.
(CROWD CHANTING "TAX THE RICH")
FLOOD: No taxes on overtime.
(CROWD CHANTING "TAX THE RICH")
FLOOD: Thank you very much, and have a safe drive home.
(CROWD CHANTING "VOTE HIM OUT")
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I mean, between Vote him out and Tax the rich, were really the refrains that he was hearing there.
JASMINE WRIGHT, POLITICS REPORTER, NOTUS: Yes, we actually had a NOTUS reporter at that town hall earlier who was sending in some updates and--
COLLINS: And what they said?
WRIGHT: And they said that people -- first of all, that it was insanely packed, that it was incredibly raucous, and that people were asking, not just, Why did you cut Medicaid, or Why are you cutting Social Security benefits, but basically likening him to being a fascist.
And Mike Flood responded that, A fascist wouldn't hold a town hall, basically, with all of you people shouting at me.
And so, it's an incredibly -- I mean, it's kind of a good response. But it's an incredibly, I think, furious, kind of environment that Republicans are in, and that's kind of the reason why you're not seeing them hold a lot of town halls. Now, something town halls, to describe the bill, is something that the White House would like, potentially, more Republicans to do. But we'll see if Republicans do it, after we see -- after we saw basically that reception.
I think one thing is interesting that Republicans will have to ask is whether or not the President is giving Republicans enough cover, to go out there and tout this bill that we know is relatively unpopular, at least when you call it the one big, beautiful bill.
MASON: Also worth underscoring--
COLLINS: Yes, and they took issue with that tonight.
[21:45:00]
MASON: Sorry, worth underscoring? It's Nebraska.
COLLINS: Yes.
WRIGHT: Yes.
MASON: That is not a blue state.
COLLINS: Yes, that's a great point.
Jeff Mason. Jasmine Wright. Lael Brainard. Great to have all of you here tonight, as we'll continue to monitor these town halls, while lawmakers are back home.
Up next here. Abroad, there is outrage in Israel tonight, as the Prime Minister is facing growing pressure to end the war in Gaza. Instead, he seems to be pushing ahead to fully occupy Gaza. What we know about Bibi Netanyahu's plans, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: There's major news coming out of Israel tonight, where in a matter of hours, the Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, is expected to urge his security cabinet to back a full military takeover of the Gaza Strip. That's according to Israeli media reports that a source tells CNN are accurate.
Senior officials, close to the Prime Minister, are quoted as saying, "The die is cast -- we're going for full conquest." If Israel's military commander "doesn't agree -- he should resign."
[21:50:00]
My source tonight served as the U.S. Ambassador to Israel, under President Obama. Dan Shapiro is here.
And thank you, Ambassador.
I wonder what you make of what this is going to look like, if Netanyahu goes forward with this. DAN SHAPIRO, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO ISRAEL: Well, Kaitlan, I certainly hope these reports are not true.
What is described in those reports is essentially Israel continuing the war into a full occupation of Gaza. This is really to achieve the goals of the most extreme members of Prime Minister Netanyahu's cabinet, which is to reoccupy and ultimately resettle Gaza, annex it to Israel, perhaps ethnically cleanse the Palestinian population. That's not what is needed right now.
Maybe this is just a feint to try to get Hamas back into negotiations on the release of the hostages. But I certainly hope it's not true.
If it is followed through, what it's going to mean is more dead hostages. We just saw two hostages that Hamas is sadistically starving and making dig their own graves and tunnels. And with our -- 20 still alive, they're going to die. More Palestinian civilians are going to die. More Israeli soldiers are going to die. Israel which has already experienced experiencing significant isolation, internationally, is going to see that deepen.
But no Arab states are going to come help with the day-after in Gaza, which was what really needed. And President Trump can forget about his dreams of a Saudi-Israeli normalization deal, or expanding the Abraham Accords.
So, I certainly hope these reports are not accurate.
COLLINS: Yes. I mean, those images of the emaciated hostages are just they're -- they're devastating to look at, and also to think of what this would mean for the Palestinians after so long that the war has been happening.
And this reminded me of, obviously, just recently, a few months ago, when President Trump was talking about the United States taking over the -- over Gaza, basically, and being in charge of it.
I asked him about that at a press conference. I want to remind everyone what he told me.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Just to follow up on what you were saying about the Gazans leaving Gaza, going to other countries. One, where exactly are you suggesting that they should go? And two, are you saying they should return after it's rebuilt? And if not, who do you envision living there?
TRUMP: I envision world people living there -- the world's people. I think you'll make that into an international, unbelievable place. I think the potential in the Gaza Strip is unbelievable.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: If Netanyahu does go through with this, what do you think the U.S.'s role could look like? SHAPIRO: Well, I think President Trump bears a fair bit of responsibility for the situation we're in, with a war that seems to continue without end, a ceasefire that broke down, a hunger crisis that took hold in Gaza with people literally starving, hostages languishing without any hope of being free.
When he announced his vision of the United States taking over Gaza, and sending all the Palestinians out, and building luxury hotels on the beach? That was not a realistic vision. It was not even a serious vision. But it did embolden and empower the most extreme members of the Israeli cabinet, who really do want to empty Gaza of its Palestinian population, and take it over.
COLLINS: But is--
SHAPIRO: So, he also signed off on a terrible -- sorry.
COLLINS: Well, you mentioned -- you mentioned what the government wants. The Israeli media tonight is reporting, the IDF is opposed to this. And this -- what is the -- what does happen if Israel's military leaders say, We don't support what you're going to do here?
SHAPIRO: 75 percent of the Israeli public in every poll says they want the war to end and get all the hostages home. The large number of very senior former Israeli security figures just announced today, their call to end the war and get the hostages home.
And we know the Israeli military leadership feels that the military is overstretched, and that the costs and the military gain -- the cost of doing this operation into deep into Gaza, are too high, and the military gains are too little, given how much Hamas has already been degraded.
So, when President Trump gives signals that he's open to it, when President Trump gives signals that he's open to suspending aid shipments, as he did? When he doesn't use the leverage he had after he struck the Iranian nuclear facilities, to say to Prime Minister Netanyahu, It's time to bring the war to end? He bears some responsibility.
And we need him and, his envoy, Steve Witkoff, to actually get Hamas and Israel to the table for an end-of-conflict deal that brings all hostages home and gets aid surging into Gaza.
COLLINS: Former Ambassador, Dan Shapiro. We'll see what happens, obviously, when Israel wakes up in a few hours. Thanks so much for joining tonight.
SHAPIRO: Thank you.
COLLINS: Up next. You'll remember when President Trump, as a candidate, called himself the father of IVF. Not only has his administration done little to deliver on his IVF promises. Now there's new reporting that they are not even trying. That's next.
[21:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, The Washington Post is reporting that President Trump is backing away from a key campaign pledge, to make IVF free, or at least require insurers to cover it, despite what he promised on the campaign trail, multiple times.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Under the Trump administration, your government will pay for -- or your insurance company will be mandated to pay for -- all costs associated with IVF treatment.
We're going to -- government is going to pay for IVF when people need the treatment, when they want the treatment, when they want to go in with the fertilization.
I'm the father -- I'm the father of--
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you don't hear that every day.
TRUMP: I'm the father of IVF.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: More than six months into his second term, the Trump administration has not publicly proposed any new federal aid, to make IVF free or more affordable.
The only action we've seen from the President was that executive order he signed, back in February, to develop policy recommendations to expand access to IVF, something his supporters and Congress framed this way.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. KATIE BRITT (R-AL): Once again, this is promises made, promises kept, from President Trump, and his strong leadership on this important issue.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: But maybe not exactly.
[22:00:00]
Today, White House officials are blaming their inaction on the fact that the President can't legally do this on his own. He would need Congress to pass a law. Of course, Republicans have a majority, here in Washington, and we've seen how the President has gotten them to pass laws, in recent weeks.
In response to the reporting, from The Washington Post, the White House said in a statement, quote, "President Trump pledged to expand access to fertility treatments for Americans who are struggling to start families. The Administration is committed like none before it to using its authorities to deliver on this pledge."
Thanks so much for joining us.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT" starts now.
