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The Source with Kaitlan Collins

Trump Orders "Specialized" National Guard Units To Address Crime In Cities; Federal Judge To Require Kilmar Abrego Garcia Remain In U.S. While He Challenges Deportation To Uganda; House Oversight Will Question Alex Acosta On 2008 Epstein Plea Deal. Aired 9-10p ET

Aired August 25, 2025 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[21:00:00]

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DON RIDDELL, CNN ANCHOR AND CORRESPONDENT, WORLD SPORT (voice-over): And with the fans now distracting his opponent, Medvedev staged an unlikely comeback, recovering from two sets down. But he's endured a miserable season, this year, and Bonzi is his bogeyman. And in the fifth set, here in New York, Bonzi beat him again.

And when it was finally over, Medvedev's emotions erupted to the surface. He smashed his racquet to pieces, and remained in his chair, looking absolutely distraught. His tournament is over, but this won't be the last he'll have heard about it, this year.

Don Riddell. CNN.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: Well, that's it for us. The news continues. "THE SOURCE" starts now.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Tonight, the U.S. Military could soon be ready to patrol cities across the country, after the President signed an executive order, expanding the role of the National Guard in domestic law enforcement.

I'm Brianna Keilar, in for Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.

President Trump sending his clearest statement yet. He wants the U.S. Military doing more, to police American cities. It's the how and where that he's still fuzzy on. The President signed an order to create so- called specialized units in the National Guard, trained in police work.

National Guard troops are, as we speak, already patrolling the streets of this city, Washington, D.C., and as of this weekend, some are armed. The Secretary of Defense spoke on behalf of members of the Guard, patrolling the nation's capital.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETE HEGSETH, DEFENSE SECRETARY: We're really proud to be a part of defending the nation's capital and ensuring it is safe and beautiful, and working with law enforcement.

And Mr. President, let me tell you, the morale of the troops, getting out there, talking to them?

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Yes.

HEGSETH: They love this mission. They're grateful to be doing it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Crime is actually down, here in D.C. But the Republican-led House Oversight Committee is now investigating whether D.C. crime statistics have been manipulated, after the President claimed they were without evidence.

Questions loom as to where President Trump wants the Guard sent next. He has blue cities, in states with governors who are Democrats, in his sights.

But it's cities in states that Trump won last election that have some of the highest crime rates, according to last year's statistics from local jurisdictions. A fact, the President ignored today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: Would you also consider sending the National Guard into red states and red cities that are also seeing high crime?

TRUMP: Sure, but there aren't that many of them. If you look at the top 25 cities that, for crime, just about every one of those cities is run by Democrats.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: The President did seem to back off, for now, the idea of unilaterally sending forces into other cities.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: In a certain way, we should wait to be asked, because they have cities that are so under control -- you know, out of control, so we go in and fix it.

You really want to be asked to go. You know, I hate to barge in on a city and then be treated horribly by corrupt politicians, and bad politicians, like a guy like Pritzker.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: For his part, Governor JB Pritzker of Illinois, offered this response to the President.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. JB PRITZKER (D-IL): This is not about fighting crime. This is about Donald Trump searching for any justification to deploy the military in a blue city, in a blue state, to try and intimidate his political rivals.

There is no emergency in Chicago that calls for armed military intervention.

Mr. President, do not come to Chicago.

(APPLAUSE)

PRITZKER: You are neither wanted here, nor needed here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: My law enforcement source tonight knows the reality of policing in Chicago and D.C. He served as Chief of the U.S. Capitol Police, Executive Chief of the D.C. Police, and Director of the Illinois State Police. Terry Gainer is with us now.

So Chief, Capitol Police go through an intense six-month training at Quantico. The D.C. Police Academy is 28 weeks, followed by more than a year of supervised probation.

The Guard do have experience working with local police departments, but they are -- I guess, I'm asking you, are they ready to serve as specialized, whatever that may mean, I'd be curious to know what you think, police units.

TERRANCE GAINER, FORMER CHIEF OF U.S. CAPITOL POLICE, FORMER DIRECTOR OF ILLINOIS STATE POLICE, FORMER EXECUTIVE CHIEF OF D.C. POLICE: Brianna, thanks. It's good to be with you.

No, the National Guard, as it's configured now, is not prepared to do this. There are good men and women there, who are trained to do a particular function, war-fighting or emergencies in the state, or crane rails in fires and flood. That's good. They have some roles. In those years I worked with, in the Illinois State Police, we're out in Washington, we partnered with the National Guard in a lot of ways.

In this particular endeavor, arming those men and women, and putting them in harm's way is risky and dangerous.

[21:05:00]

KEILAR: The Guard, here in D.C., are now carrying weapons on their person. They had had them in vehicles, previously.

Here's what Defense Secretary, Pete Hegseth, said about the decision, in the Oval Office today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HEGSETH: It's just commonsense to make sure they're armed as well. And so they -- we're rolling out -- ensuring they're armed, capable of defending themselves and others, if need be, supporting law enforcement, and we're proud to be there, sir.

(END VIDEO CLIP) KEILAR: Do you agree with that? Is it commonsense that they're armed?

GAINER: No, it -- you know it is not. Again, when you put someone, out on the street, in an environment in which they are not normally operating, and in this area, crime fighting with a weapon, they're not trained for that.

And so, you mentioned at the beginning, all the training law enforcement has, and we get a ton of it, about the use of force and de-escalation, how to work with the community, know your community, have great communication, having worked with each other in tough situations, how to handle people in erratic situations. Police train incessantly for that, and still re -- screw it up, on some occasions.

So, these men and women are just not prepared for it. He's overestimating his assessment of what those National Guard personnel can do now, and demonstrating his inexperience in policing in a complex environment.

KEILAR: You were, as I mentioned, with D.C. Police. You worked closely with them as well during your time at the Capitol. The House Oversight Committee is looking into allegations of manipulated D.C. crime statistics. Did you ever have reason to believe that the city's crime stats were manipulated? And how big of a deal would it be, for something like that to happen?

GAINER: Well, it would be significant, if someone was manipulating crime stats. It probably is a federal violation, because we're reporting that up through -- through the FBI, and the Metropolitan Police Department was aware of an allegation of misconduct against one of its commanders, and that's an active investigation.

But I think it's a leap, to go from there, to say that all the benefits and gains that that police department has made, over the last couple of years, or particularly since last year, the year before, is because the numbers have been doctored. That's, I think, that's just the canard, and trying to make excuses to justify what they're trying to do.

And let me tell you this. The D.C. Police, and every police department I am aware of, and I've worked with a lot of them off the -- over the country now, works very closely with the FBI, and the DEA, and the U.S. Marshals Service, and ATF. They have good relationships in crime- fighting.

If there are extra personnel in those agencies to do more for a local police department, then continue partnering with the local police department, in the lane of which they're best-suited.

So, for instance, the U.S. Marshals' forte is generally serving warrants. There's a ton of warrants, throughout the United States, that could use help being served.

The FBI, tremendous investigators, and they historically ran a one- week or a two-week homicide investigation course, kind of a senior- level investigative course. They haven't been doing that lately. They don't have enough personnel.

So there's a right way to do this, to have a strategy to work together. And God love the National Guard. There is a role for them. We use them extensively during big events, in Washington, like the State of the Union, or the Inauguration, for very particular things for which they were trained. So, we can be partners. But throwing them out there?

If I put officers on the street, armed, asking them to fight crime, with as little training as the National Guard is getting now to do that, and being brought in from other states? That would be a dereliction of duty. So, I think the people making this decisions ought to get their head straight, and think through what they're trying to do to these men and women. You're putting people in harm's way.

KEILAR: Illinois Governor, JB Pritzker, actually, he had said this about Chicago -- pardon me. He had actually criticized the administration for cuts to law enforcement in Chicago. They have cut more than $800 million in DOJ grants for local law enforcement, and the President's budget calls for more than a billion dollars more in cuts.

Why did those kind of cuts stand out when the President is lamenting the state of crime in cities?

GAINER: Well, in some respects, I think he's speaking with a forked tongue.

[21:10:00]

I know this. In the last 10 years, since I left government service, I've been working for this Center for Naval Analyses, one of the big contractors for the Justice Department, who was working, brought in senior law enforcement officers, like myself, experienced in city and county and state policing, and were working on things like the public safety partnership in some 60 cities across the United States.

In the first quarter of those years, the grants were ended for those endeavors, that would have focused on the very things we need to do to reduce crime.

You may know, there's 93 federal jurisdictions across the United States. Project Safe Neighborhoods also was a funded program for which, just after January of this year, the Department of Justice ended the support they were getting from senior law enforcement officers. Smart Policing Initiative, where law enforcement, the community, were partnering with educational institutions, to figure out the social, economic causes of crime, and then addressing that smartly, that also was ended.

So what this governor, in Illinois, and others are talking about, this President, this Justice Department, ended those. Now they come in, saying, Oh, and by the way, now we're going to help you doing it our way. We're going to send in the National Guard. We're not going to be too concerned about the -- how the community reacts to this. But it sure as hell makes us look good.

KEILAR: Chief Terry Gainer, great to get your perspective tonight. Thank you so much for being with us.

GAINER: Thank you.

KEILAR: And now to my congressional source, the Democrat from Florida, Congressman Jared Moskowitz.

How are you seeing this House Republican investigation into D.C.'s crime stats, questioning whether they may have been manipulated, and what if the committee finds that they may have been?

REP. JARED MOSKOWITZ (D-FL): Well, thanks for having me, Brianna.

First of all, obviously, look, that's a serious allegation. If true, obviously, then it should be looked at.

But this is James Comer who's looking at this. I mean, good God, everything Comer touches turns to crap. So, I mean, I put no faith in what James Comer is doing, as he tries to become the next Governor of Kentucky, just to try to please the White House.

This is the guy who stopped having hearings. He's doing all these depositions in the basement. And then he's going to issue a report because he doesn't want to allow the Democrats to beat him, like they did two years ago when he was doing the fake faux Biden impeachment that he didn't even have the votes to carry on with.

So again, look, if there was manipulation of data, it should be looked into. It's a serious allegation. But if Comer is touching it, forget it.

KEILAR: So Illinois Governor, JB Pritzker, you probably heard him today, he told the President, Stay out of Chicago.

But we saw what happened in Los Angeles. Can Pritzker really do anything to keep troops out? Can Democrats in other states or in Congress really do anything?

MOSKOWITZ: Well, first, let me say, listen, I'm someone who's been tough on crime. I voted for the D.C. crime bill. I have voted, when I was in the state legislature, to increase the death penalty. So there are Democrats, on a bipartisan basis, that are tough on crime. We just don't believe in bringing in the military to do that.

This is all a show. In D.C., he's got 30 days to get it done. I mean, I see the National Guard in Georgetown. The only crime in Georgetown is what Lululemon is charging for their pants. And so, a lot of this is just performative. And in 30 days, the criminals are waiting them -- him out, and they'll be back. It's not really going to solve the problem.

If he tries to bring them to Chicago, he can guard federal buildings again. All performative. Will not do anything on crime. It is getting the headlines off of Epstein. It is getting the headlines off of the failed summit with Russia. That's what this is about. This is about distraction. This is about outrage. It's really not about fixing any of the crime issues, which Democrats and Republicans would do on a bipartisan basis, if they were serious about it.

KEILAR: So, the statistics may show crime rates dropping in places, like Chicago and Baltimore, but fear of crime is really another thing entirely. A majority of Americans have said they think crime is up, and they've said that every year since 2001.

You said that people in your party are tough on crime. That is not always the perception. You're well-aware of that. How is your party addressing those concerns to change that, especially when crime, if dropping, is still, you see it, they're very real and on the mind of voters.

MOSKOWITZ: Well, look, I've always backed the blue. Yes, look, there was the, you know, some of the folks on the far-left that did this Defund the Police nonsense. It was short-lived. It disappeared. Republicans just defunded law enforcement in their big, beautiful bill. So both sides have dabbled in it.

Obviously, there's a perception issue, which is why I think you could be clear here that we're tough on crime, we're serious on tackling crime. You just don't bring the military.

And look, the Pentagon should be focusing on what's going on with Ukraine. They should be focused on what's going on in Gaza. They should be focused on China, focused on Russia, focused on all the things going on around the world.

[21:15:00]

They shouldn't be focused on Washington, D.C. That's a police -- for the police to do, and they're going to be doing that. I mean, what is there? Two and half weeks left, and then the 30 days is up? Trump doesn't have the votes in Congress to extend it anyway.

And so, listen, I think more resources for police, more presence for police are important. It's going to take money to do that. I don't think there are Republicans, quite frankly, that want to put more money towards it. So, they got problems on their side, about how you really go ahead and tackle crime.

Look, here at -- I walk around D.C., I live there, obviously, half of the time. And look, there are periods of time where I don't feel safe. And so, I do think that we can improve the situation. It's why I voted for the D.C. crime bill. I just don't think you put the military on the streets, especially because it's not a full-time solution. This is a band aid. Won't fix the problem. It's all performative.

KEILAR: Yes, we heard Chief Gainer saying as much there.

Hurricane season, typically a very busy time for the Guard. You're well-aware of that. Now you have more than 180 current and former FEMA workers who are warning, the agency may be at risk for Katrina-type failures. What are you telling your constituents, in Florida, to prepare for?

MOSKOWITZ: Well, when I was the Director of Emergency Management, we told everyone to get seven days of supplies. We changed that from three days. They may need even more supplies.

What's going on at FEMA, Brianna, is a disaster within a disaster. It is the worst-case scenario. President Trump talked about reforming FEMA, making FEMA faster. Many of us in the emergency management community believe FEMA needed reform, and we want to make FEMA faster. But that is not what Secretary Noem has done. She has destroyed the agency. She has obliterated it.

It is slower. It is more inefficient. It didn't respond up to FEMA's -- FEMA's abilities in the Texas floods. And I'm deeply worried about if we got a Katrina-like event, or even less than that. Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, South Carolina, North Carolina, these are states that need FEMA logistics. FEMA is not ready. God forbid we got a serious earthquake in California, which hasn't happened since Northridge, FEMA is not ready.

We don't know if we're getting pre-landfall declarations, which allows FEMA to move their logistical support before a serious hurricane. We don't know if we're getting expedited reimbursement, which gets this money down into cities and counties, especially fiscally-constrained areas. This is going to slow down the cleanup effort. It's going to slow down the response. This is actually against what President Trump said he wanted to do with FEMA.

And so look, Kristi Noem might have her Michael Brown moment. I hope it doesn't happen, because that means there's a city, a county, a state, in this country that is being tossed to the side, because of what Kristi Noem has destroyed FEMA, which are -- we got to get -- we got to get FEMA out of Homeland Security.

I actually have a bill to do that, a bipartisan bill, to remove it from Homeland, make it a standalone agency, like it was before 9/11, and that bill's with Byron Donalds. And so, that's a bipartisan bill. That could help us fix some of the stuff. But if this stays in Homeland, there'll be nothing left when Kristi Noem is done.

KEILAR: Congressman Jared Moskowitz, thank you so much for being with us.

MOSKOWITZ: Thank you.

KEILAR: The Maryland man, mistakenly deported to El Salvador, now facing deportation again, this time to Uganda. His lawyers are fighting that push, and one of them is my source tonight.

[21:20:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) KEILAR: Tonight, a federal judge is telling the Trump administration, it is, quote, Absolutely forbidden to remove Kilmar Abrego Garcia from the United States, as she weighs a new legal challenge over the Trump administration -- over the Trump administration's plans to deport him to the East African nation of Uganda, as soon as this week.

Abrego Garcia became the face of President Trump's immigration crackdown, after he was wrongfully deported to a notorious prison in El Salvador, earlier this year. In June, the administration brought him back to the U.S., to face human smuggling charges, and released him from federal custody, late last week, while he awaits trial. In the meantime, immigration officials took him into their custody today.

Speaking through a translator, he delivered this message to his supporters.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LYDIA WALTHER-RODRIGUEZ, CASA MEMBER & TRANSLATOR FOR KILMAR ABREGO GARCIA: To all the families who have been separated, or to all the families who have been threatened with family separation. This administration has hit us hard. But I want to tell you guys something.

God is with us, and God will never leave us. God will bring justice to all of the injustice that we are suffering.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: My source tonight is an attorney on Abrego Garcia's legal team, Brian Murray.

Brian, thank you for being with us.

The judge here, planning to stretch out an existing hold on Abrego Garcia's removal, until this legal challenge is sorted out. Do you know how long that's going to take?

BRIAN MURRAY, ATTORNEY FOR KILMAR ABREGO GARCIA, SENIOR PARTNER AT IMMIGRATION LAW FIRM MURRAY OSORIO PLLC: It's not clear, at this point, Brianna. The judge tentatively set a hearing for this Friday, but it's likely to get pushed into next week. But for our part, we're going to do everything we can to exhaust all of Kilmar's rights.

KEILAR: Abrego Garcia said that he fears being tortured, if the Trump administration deports him to Uganda. Can you tell us about his concerns?

[21:25:00]

MURRAY: Well, I can tell you this much. There is nothing in the actions that have taken place, over the last several weeks, and especially recently, that gives us any assurance that if the Trump administration were to deport Kilmar back -- Kilmar to Uganda, that he wouldn't just immediately be on a plane back to El Salvador, directly thereafter, and back into CECOT, where he did already experience torture this year. KEILAR: He prefers the U.S. send him to Costa Rica, which the administration had offered if he accepted a plea, by this morning. He rejected that. Why did he reject that plea?

MURRAY: Well, I want to say, first of all, that we are not his criminal defense attorneys, and can't speak to some of the details regarding those plea negotiations.

But I can tell you that given the history in this case, it's critical that any kind of deal that could be made, that there be real assurances that the government, who has not proven itself to be trustworthy, so far in this case, that it keep its word.

KEILAR: The judge also said that she is planning to hold an evidentiary hearing, with witnesses, in the coming days. Are you aware who those witnesses will be, and what they could share with the court?

MURRAY: No, I'm not. I think that that's unfortunately a little premature to get into that level of detail, because those are still subject to negotiation discussions between the parties.

KEILAR: OK. Mr. Abrego Garcia, as you mentioned, was sent to CECOT, that notorious prison in El Salvador, when he should not have been. The mistake was not immediately corrected. He's back now, but he could end up, as we've been talking about, in an African nation, where he doesn't speak the language, doesn't have connections. You say he's worried that he could then be shipped back to El Salvador, from there.

What is the message that you think the Trump administration is sending other immigrants, who are undocumented in the U.S., like your client?

MURRAY: I think it's unequivocal that they're sending the message that -- that You are to be run over, and you're not to speak up, you're not to speak back, or we will bring the full force of the most powerful entity in the world against you.

KEILAR: Brian Murray, thank you for being with us, this evening. We'll continue to track this case, of course.

MURRAY: Thank you.

KEILAR: Some new subpoenas in the Jeffrey Epstein investigation. What the House Oversight Committee is asking the sex offender's estate to turn over. My legal and White House sources are joining me next.

[21:30:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KEILAR: Tonight, the House Oversight Committee has expanded its probe into the federal government's handling of the Jeffrey Epstein investigation.

The Committee has issued a subpoena, demanding that Epstein's estate turn over documents and records, that span nearly three decades, including Epstein's last will and testament, all non-disclosure agreements, any potential lists of clients involved with sex trafficking, missed phone calls and visitor logs, financial transactions or holdings, plus calendars and all security and CCTV footage from a number of Epstein's properties, as well as the so- called birthday book for his 50th birthday that Ghislaine Maxwell put together, and included a note, bearing President Trump's name.

Now, Trump has repeatedly denied writing the letter and has sued The Wall Street Journal, which first reported its existence, for defamation.

The Epstein estate now faces a September 8 deadline, to hand over those materials.

The Oversight Committee will also sit down with former Trump Labor Secretary, Alex Acosta. He was the U.S. attorney, who negotiated the government's controversial plea deal with Epstein, back in 2008.

My deeply-sourced White House insiders are here.

Alex Isenstadt of Axios.

And Semafor's Shelby Talcott.

As well as my legal source, former federal prosecutor, Shan Wu.

All right, Shan. So Acosta, finally. I feel like we've been asking, for a very long time, why is he not among those that they are speaking to. What information can he share, when he sits down voluntarily with the committee?

SHAN WU, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Well, I think high on everybody's mind is this alleged remark he made, that said Epstein was tied to intelligence, and that's why he wanted to give him a better deal for it. And then to really dive into what kind of evidence they had, why did he decide that this was a good deal to make, all the questions you would ask of a prosecutor.

No one's -- typically, you don't get to ask that from the prosecutors. You just have to accept what they did. But in this circumstance, he's going to have to talk about what his decision-making involved.

KEILAR: So Acosta, of course, Alex, resigned as Labor Secretary, amid fallout from that sweetheart deal that he got in Florida, as federal prosecutors in New York brought back the spotlight on this case, almost a decade later, right? Here's what he told Kaitlan Collins, two days before his resignation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Would you make this same agreement today?

[21:35:00]

ALEX ACOSTA, FORMER LABOR SECRETARY: So these questions are always very difficult, because we now have 12 years of knowledge in hindsight, and we live in a very different world. Today's world treats victims very, very differently. Today's world does not allow some of the victim-shaming that could have taken place at trial, 12 years ago.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Is the White House worried with Acosta now testifying before the committee that this is kind of getting a little too close to home?

ALEX ISENSTADT, SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER, AXIOS: Well, I can tell you this, that the Epstein situation may have died down a little bit, when Congress was on its six-week recess, but it's about to come back with a vengeance, now that these Congress members are coming back to D.C.

And here's the interesting thing with, when you look at the Acosta situation, when you look at these other documents that are getting subpoenaed, House Republicans are going to have to make a really tough choice here, right? Either they're going to cross Trump and potentially face his wrath, or they're going to potentially face the wrath of their voters, who want them to be very aggressive in terms of asking for more information.

So, that's part of the reason why you're seeing Acosta come out. You're seeing House Republicans are under pressure to deliver on the demands of their constituents. But they don't want to go too far, because then you risk Trump's wrath.

KEILAR: Shelby--

ISENSTADT: It's very tough. It's very -- it's real delicate balancing that.

KEILAR: It certainly is a line they're walking.

Shelby, what are your sources saying about the significance of this particular interview?

SHELBY TALCOTT, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, SEMAFOR: Well, I think there is an acknowledgment, inside the administration, that this is not going away. It took them a little bit to get there. They're, for weeks, I was hearing from people inside the administration, who really believed that this was going to die down. And when it didn't, there was an acknowledgment that they needed to do more to sort of satisfy the base.

And so, I don't think that anyone I have spoken to believes that there's going to be some sort of bombshell, released out of what Congress is doing, but it is certainly going to stay in the news. It is going to ramp up, as Alex just said. And they're aware of that, and they're sort of just preparing for that reality, whether they like it or not.

KEILAR: I want to ask you about something, Shan, that President Trump put on Truth Social tonight. He says that he fired the Federal Reserve Governor, Lisa Cook. This is, according to a letter that he posted online.

It's something that he actually floated just a few days ago. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: President Trump, are you going to fire Lisa Cook, the Fed Governor, over her mortgage fraud?

TRUMP: Yes, I'll fire her if she doesn't resign, yes. She's -- she -- what she did was bad. So, I'll fire her if she doesn't resign.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: The administration is accusing Cook, Shan, of committing mortgage fraud. And yet, the Supreme Court has signaled that Trump doesn't have the authority to fire Federal Reserve officials without cause. Is just kind of accusing her enough?

WU: Well, they're certainly going to say it's enough, and she's probably going to litigate that issue. I mean, if you're going to accuse somebody of the mortgage fraud, as a crime, I mean, DOJ should charge her or say, you know -- usually, actually, you wouldn't even say, We're doing the investigation. But they tend to at least announce the investigation.

This is not DOJ opening anything. They haven't charged her. So, as of right now, I think it's kind of a questionable for cause. But obviously, that's what he's relying on, and I would expect her to challenge it.

And this question of whether he can, just at will, get rid of members of the Federal Reserve, would seem to be settled. So that's why they're trying to shoehorn it into the -- for cause. But it's definitely going to get litigated.

KEILAR: What is his objective here, Shelby?

TALCOTT: Well, I think it's clear he wants more control. Overall. He has not made that a secret, necessarily. He has repeatedly gone after the Federal Reserve for not lowering interest rates. It's very clear what he wants to do.

I also think more broadly, this isn't surprising insofar as this Trump administration, this 2.0 Trump administration, is very clear on its goals, and more willing to go further than they might have, in the first administration, in order to achieve those goals. You're seeing that on a whole host of issues, including here.

KEILAR: What are you hearing, Alex?

ISENSTADT: Well, look, it's pretty clear, the administration is willing to use the instruments of government to exact revenge on people, to put pressure on institutions.

Trump, the White House, they clearly want to have a lot of influence on the Fed, to put loyalists in there. And Trump is very zeroed in on the idea of lowering interest rates. And it's possible that that's what's going to happen, anyways. They've kind of hinted that that might be coming.

But Trump really is focused on the idea of lowering interest rates, and that's emerged as a real priority for him. He's telegraphed that this move, he telegraphed a few days ago, as you just showed, that he was going to make this move tonight.

KEILAR: Yes.

President Trump also signed an executive order today, Shan, where he's putting stricter penalties on American flag burning, which is a really interesting place that he's going here. This includes a one year in prison sentence for those who do it, where there's evidence of criminal activity.

[21:40:00]

Now, this has been decided by the Supreme Court that flag burning is protected speech. So, how do you see this shaping up?

WU: Well, on its face, it's blatantly unconstitutional what he's doing.

But the loophole they're trying to find is this idea that it's part of inciting further violence or it's criminal activity. The problem is, you already have statutes on the books for that. I mean, if you're inciting something, you're inciting something, it's a separate charge. So, he's trying to create this new charge about burning the American flag that's tied in to other existing criminal statutes. I don't think it's going to work.

KEILAR: Does he think, Alex, that he can do this, no problem? Or what's the point here?

ISENSTADT: Well, here's -- the point of this is that Trump has showed, throughout this second term, that he's focused on cultural issues, ideas around patriotism, ideas around law and order. And this is something that Trump is really leaning into. And so, whether this is legal or not is at best, unclear.

But Trump wants to get out there, into the headlines, into the daily -- the daily news, he wants to get out there, this idea of patriotism and law and order. That's something he is pounding every single day, at this point.

KEILAR: He also grabs onto these issues, Shelby, that they're popular, right? Even if they aren't, maybe in line with the law. I think probably a lot of Americans aren't going to go burn a flag, right?

TALCOTT: Yes, yes.

KEILAR: Or they don't even like the idea of it. But it is protected speech.

What he's doing in D.C., for instance, with the Guard, may be popular with a -- not with people in D.C., but with a lot of people who are looking on. Why not tackle crime? TALCOTT: Yes.

KEILAR: He's finding these issues, where he gets a lot of appeal. But he may be, when it comes down to it, not in the right place with the law.

TALCOTT: Yes, and he's really building on everything that won him the 2024 election, right? You're talking about crime. You're talking about social issues. Those are all topics that won him the election.

And so, he sees that he won the election based on X, Y and Z, and he's going to continue that in this administration. Whether or not it plays out and ends up in four years, actually becoming a reality, is sort of secondary to the fact that he's doing this.

But what's really interesting, I think, about the flag burning, in particular, is I've heard from some conservatives, who are concerned about this, because they are worried that it will infringe on the free speech. Even as they say, I hate the idea that people can burn the American flag, this is horrible? They're seeing the flip side. And so, there is a little bit of tension among some members of the base on this particular issue.

KEILAR: That's really interesting. They often decry their -- as they see it, their speech being infringed on. So, that will be interesting to see how that plays out.

Everyone, thank you so much.

ISENSTADT: Thank you.

KEILAR: Really appreciate the discussion.

Up next. Israel facing fierce condemnation, after launching back-to- back strikes on a hospital in Gaza. What President Trump said today, when he was asked about it. We'll have that next.

[21:45:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KEILAR: Israel is facing fierce outrage, tonight, after carrying out back-to-back strikes on a Gaza hospital, killing five journalists. This is what it looked like, as medical workers, journalists and emergency response crews rushed to the scene of the attack, on the Nasser Hospital in Khan Yunis. You can see responders on a damaged staircase, a journalist camera held up over the ledge, a group carrying a body bag.

But then moments later, a second strike, a second Israeli strike, hits. And we're going to let the video play out for you. You won't see the impact of the strike, but you can hear it and then see the immediate aftermath.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(VIDEO - ISRAELI STRIKES ON GAZA HOSPITAL)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (FOREIGN LANGUAGE).

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: According to the Palestinian Ministry of Health, which is controlled by Hamas, at least 20 people were killed in the attack.

The hospital spokesman says five journalists and four health workers had died.

And Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, is now calling this a, quote, Tragic mishap.

Back in the Oval Office today, President Trump seemed to learn about the incident from a reporter.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: The Israelis bombed a hospital in Gaza that killed 20 people, including five journalists.

TRUMP: When did this happen?

REPORTER: This happened overnight, today.

TRUMP: I didn't know that.

REPORTER: Any reaction to this? Are you going to talk to about it?

TRUMP: Well, I'm not happy about it. I don't want to see it. At the same time, we have to end that all nightmare.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: My sources tonight are:

CNN Political and Global Affairs Analyst, Barak Ravid.

And CNN National Security Analyst, Beth Sanner.

Barak, an Israeli security official with knowledge of the initial IDF inquiry into the incident, told CNN that IDF forces had identified a camera on the roof of the hospital that they claimed was being used by Hamas to monitor the Israeli military. The Forces received authorization to strike the camera with the drone, the source said. But instead, Israeli forces fired two tank shells, the first at the camera, the second at rescue forces as they responded to the wounded.

What questions is that raising, at this point in time?

[21:50:00]

BARAK RAVID, CNN POLITICAL & GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST, AXIOS GLOBAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: I think that, at this point in time, I would wait until the entire IDF investigation ends, especially in order to determine whether this whole camera story is accurate or not. Because, at least from what I hear from some Israeli officials, that there are serious questions about this version, and it is not at all clear that this was indeed an approved target.

So, I think the investigation is only beginning, and I think we'll know more in the next few days. But there are real questions about this version, regarding an alleged camera that was the target.

KEILAR: Questions that there was a camera -- are you saying that there are questions about whether there was a camera that was identified, or that this was someone freelancing? Can you tell us a little more?

RAVID: No whether -- you know, whether -- whether it was a, you know, a Hamas reconnaissance outpost in the hospital, or not.

It's -- listen, there is -- one of the things that are happening in over the last six months, especially after the -- after there was a new commander appointed to the Southern Command, and several other appointments in the forces that are fighting in Gaza, there has been a lot of arguments, between the General Staff in the IDF headquarters, and the Southern Command, regarding targeting.

Some of those arguments were between the Air Force and the Southern Command, about which targets are targets that you can justify attacking, and with which kind -- what kind of weapons. And I think that this will be one of the questions that will be asked as part of this investigation.

KEILAR: So Beth, you did hear there. I want to ask you about this. The President unaware of the strikes until a reporter asked him about them.

You briefed Trump. You were his Intel briefer, at times, during his first term. Is that unusual to you that he seemingly didn't know this had happened, even though it had occurred several hours before?

BETH SANNER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST, FORMER DEPUTY DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE: Well, lots of seniors have been caught off guard by developments. And you kind of hate to point fingers there, because as you're preparing for a very important meeting with a foreign leader, you're kind of focused on that, and maybe somebody didn't have a chance to tell him before. I don't want to blame anything -- anybody here. But these things do happen.

And he, I think, responded in the way that all of us would, in that moment of finding out with like, you know, I don't like this, this is horrible. And then later, he was pressing Netanyahu to end this thing.

KEILAR: Yes, the Israeli military, Beth, has already taken the first steps of a larger operation to occupy Gaza City. Is that the right direction to reach a deal, or a ceasefire, or put more pressure on?

SANNER: Well, I mean, that's certainly the argument is that somehow that things will be different this time, and that military pressure will lead to some miraculous Hamas capitulation. But I think, the big question, right now, I have, in my mind, Brianna, is how these unexpected things that happen. I mean, yes, you can predict this sort of thing. But when it happens, it can really change the dynamic.

And so, you know is -- does this reinforce what Chief of Staff Zamir of the Army has said, that this is a bad idea, you know, we shouldn't be doing this Gaza operation, because these sorts of things are going to happen, and it's not going to accomplish what we want.

And so, things can change now.

KEILAR: Yes, so much tension between the IDF and Netanyahu, at this point.

Barak Ravid. Beth Sanner. Thank you so much, both of you.

And up next. Remember Bridgegate? Well, President Trump does. Why he's looking to reopen an investigation into one of his most outspoken political rivals?

[21:55:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KEILAR: Before we go tonight, here are three things that you may have missed.

President Trump today hinted at bringing an investigation into former New Jersey Governor, Chris Christie, his one-time ally, over the 2013 Bridgegate scandal.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: And so, when I listen to Chris speak his hate, I say, Oh, what about the George Washington Bridge? You know, tell me about the George Washington Bridge. He blamed other people, but he knew all about it. So no, I don't know if they want to look at it. It's not for me. If they want to look at it, they can. You can ask Pam. I think we have other things to do. But I always thought he got away with murder.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: That happened after Christie criticized the President, on Sunday, while discussing the recent FBI search of John Bolton's home and office.

Also tonight, President Trump suggested he will change the name of the Department of Defense, back to the Department of War, its pre-World War II name.

[22:00:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: How do you plan to do that? It requires an act of Congress to rename the Defense Department to the Department of War. Are you--

TRUMP: We're just going to do it. I'm sure Congress will go along, if we need that. I don't think we even need that. But if we need that, I'm sure Congress will go along.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: And finally, tonight, the CDC has confirmed the first human case of the flesh-eating screwworm parasite in the U.S. Health officials say a Maryland resident, traveling to El Salvador, has recovered from the infection, and that an investigation confirmed no indication of transmission to any other person or animal.

Thank you for joining us.

"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts now.