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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Trump: "I'm Not Walking In Baltimore... Baltimore Is A Hellhole"; Burgum Says Trump's Deploying National Guard To Cities Led By Democrats Is Not Political: "He's Not Targeting Anything"; Fed Gov: Trump Has No Authority To Fire Me... I Will Not Resign. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired August 26, 2025 - 21:00 ET
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(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TAYLOR SWIFT, AMERICAN SINGER-SONGWRITER: That effervescence has come through on this record.
LISA RESPERS FRANCE, CNN REPORTER (voice-over): Taylor and Travis mania now reaching a fever pitch with the anticipation of a storybook ceremony, as romantic as some of her recent lyrics.
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RESPERS FRANCE (voice-over): With Swifties hoping for a royal wedding, and a happily ever after, just like her song suggests.
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RESPERS FRANCE (voice-over): Lisa Respers France. CNN.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: And we wish them the best.
The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Tonight, as President Trump tests the power, and the limits of his power when it comes to the Federal Reserve, the National Guard and even Cracker Barrel, this evening, I'll speak to a Cabinet secretary of his, the Democratic governor of Maryland, and also Democratic senator, Elizabeth Warren.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
Tonight, the President of the United States is both declaring victory, while also escalating his fights with the leaders of several states.
The National Guard troops patrolling the streets, here in Washington, D.C., have already accomplished at least one thing, by giving the President the chance to refocus the conversation around this image of him as tough on crime.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Crime in D.C. was the worst ever in history. And now, over the last 13 days, we've worked so hard, we've taken so many. And there are many left.
You would think that Illinois, where they have such a problem with crime, such a bad governor, he should be calling me, and he should be saying, Could you send over the troops, please? It's out of control. It's out of control.
In New York, it's out of control. Not as bad as Illinois, by the way, not even close.
You can't go around saying, Oh, Washington, D.C. is safe, if it's not. It's going to be very safe very soon. It's very safe right now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Washington was not close to an all-time crime high, before the President's law enforcement takeover. And when you look at the data, it shows that the numbers are actually down in every other place that he just named there.
But this was a recurring theme that we saw today, during his three hour and 17 minute, yes, that long Cabinet meeting today, where the President made clear, he wants to exert even more control over the capital city, at one point, calling for reinstating the death penalty for murder cases in Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Anybody murder something in the capital, capital punishment. Capital, capital punishment. If somebody kills somebody in the capital, Washington, D.C., we're going to be seeking the death penalty.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now, the President has long championed the death penalty. For D.C., though, I should note, it is not a simple ask, given capital punishment is not even in the city's legal code, and achieving it would likely face major obstacles here.
But this all came, as the President also made clear he plans to extend federal control over D.C., with help from Congress, after his 30 days to do so is up, and will then require their authorization.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Number one, we want to stay there for longer than 30 days. As you know, we have an absolute mandate, and I can extend it, but I'd rather not have to declare a national emergency, because by that time -- I mean, right now, there's not an emergency.
(END VIDEO CLIP) COLLINS: After the President threatened to send in the National Guard to other states and cities, one Governor invited him to come to the city that he was calling out. An invitation that the President responded to, this way today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Baltimore, Wes Moore was telling me he wants -- I want to walk with the President. Well, I said I want to walk with you too someday, but first you got to clean up your crime, because I'm not walking--
(LAUGHTER)
TRUMP: --I'm not walking in Baltimore right now. Baltimore is a hellhole.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My lead source tonight is the Democratic governor of Maryland that you just heard the President mention there, Wes Moore.
And Governor, thank you for being here tonight.
I think, just first off, what is your response to the President calling Baltimore, as he put it there, a hellhole?
GOV. WES MOORE (D-MD): Well, the President seems to be obsessed with me. Today, he called me a beauty. And when I first met him, he just talked about, how I was a good-looking guy. And now he just continues to make -- make statements that are just flat-out false about our state's largest city.
[21:05:00]
The reality is, is that when I first became the governor, Baltimore in 2022 had about a homicide a day. Now, in the past two and a half years, Baltimore, and the State of Maryland, had amongst the fastest drops in violent crime anywhere in the United States. The last time the homicide rate was this low in Baltimore City, I was not born yet.
And we have done it by making historic investments in law enforcement, by making historic investments in predictive and analytic -- predictive technologies. And we've done it by actually working with the Mayor, working with the State's Attorney, working with community violence intervention groups, and working with the community, to be able to ensure that people can feel safer in their neighborhoods.
And the thing is that we know we have more work to do, but we're not going to be performative or cynical about the way we are doing it, and not taking the approach that the President of the United States seems to be taking, about making people safe in communities.
COLLINS: What are you going to do if he sends in the National Guard to Baltimore, though? I mean, we've seen other governors try to fight it, like in California, with Governor Newsom, and losing -- they lost that battle in court. MOORE: Well, I'm very -- very clear. I'm the Commander-in-Chief of the Maryland National Guard. Not him. And the Constitution authorizes that. And so, the Maryland National Guard moves on the authority of the Commander-in-Chief, and I will not authorize the Maryland National Guard to be activated, for something that is either not mission- critical or mission-aligned.
And I think what the President of the United States is doing, it is not -- it is not sustainable, it is not scalable, and it's also not constitutional, that it is a direct violation of the 10th Amendment.
And even if he wants to talk about the other things he can do, to try to activate, the reality is, is that he still needs states to be able to invite the federal government to come on board, to be able to do that.
And the thing that gets me most about this is how deeply disrespectful this is, to members of the National Guard, who signed up for this job, as I did when I deployed overseas, and I led paratroopers in combat, where we signed up with the expectation that the Commander-in-Chief, and the people who were declaring our orders, was actually taking it seriously.
And the problem is we are seeing a lack of seriousness from the President of the United States, to a very serious situation. And that's why I invited him to come to Baltimore, to come be educated, to come learn, so he doesn't have to spout nonsense, from the Oval Office, and things that are just blatantly not true, about what is actually happening and the work that's happening in coordination, to make people feel safer in their neighborhoods.
COLLINS: Does that invitation still stand?
MOORE: That invitation still stands. I would -- I would love for the President of the United States to actually come and learn. I would love to be able to introduce him to our violence interrupters that are on the ground, groups like We Are Us that are on the ground, doing the work.
I would love for him to come spend time with the Mayor of Baltimore, to go learn about the things we actually need. For example, the President really wanted to not spend a -- spend a million dollars a day on something that is theatrical. Actually spend that time and put that -- put those resources, and that money, into things like license plate readers, put that money into things like making sure that we can pull up more cops from the beat, and that we could also make sure we have more--
COLLINS: Yes.
MOORE: --community violence interrupters, and they're getting the supports they need.
COLLINS: You point out that crime is down, rightfully so, in Baltimore. But some people might look at the numbers and say, OK, well, the city still has the eighth highest overall crime rate, third highest violent crime rate, and those are numbers that justify what the President is saying.
I want you to listen, actually, today, because this was a point he kept making repeatedly, during this Cabinet meeting, which is basically, he's winning a political game against Democrats, that they're making other Democrats defend crime numbers, like what I just said there. Listen to how the President put it today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: The Democrats have lost 2.5 million. Other than that, they're extremely happy.
(LAUGHTER)
TRUMP: No, they're very depressed. They're very depressed.
And their new box that they've fallen into is crime. There was a consultant on one of the shows, this morning, I was watching, I thought he was very good. He's a Democrat consultant. And he was screaming, No, no, don't let him do this to you. Don't let -- it's another trap.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Do you worry that it's a trap?
MOORE: I worry that he's not taking this seriously. This isn't a game. This is not politics.
The eight years, under the previous governor in Maryland, we went eight years in Baltimore, with 300-plus homicides every single year, unabated. That, during that time, during the eight years of my predecessor, the homicide rate in the State of Maryland nearly doubled, the non-fatal shooting rate did double.
And I refused to be a governor who was just going to sit there and offer thoughts and prayers while we allow bloodshed in our neighborhood. So, what did we do? We actually got serious. We actually started working together.
[21:10:00]
We started making historic investments in our community groups and in local law enforcement. We started actually making investments to ensure that we could use technologies to stop crime before it happened. And if someone committed a violent fine -- violent crime, particularly with a firearm, I want them in handcuffs in 24 hours. We started taking this seriously.
And that's the problem that I'm seeing here, is that we are actually working together to take this issue seriously. And right now, from the President of the United States with his -- with his, jeering cackles around him, that the only thing we are hearing is them laughing about the fact that this is a political ploy.
It is real to people who have lived in communities, for so long, that have been neglected and that have been ignored. And I can tell you, right now, when they are watching, the fact that this is just becoming a political game, to those who were sitting in positions, who could actually do something about it? That is the thing that will have consequences in the ballot box, later on.
COLLINS: You mentioned what the President has said about you, talking about your -- how you look.
You actually interacted with him, last year, at the Army-Navy Game. He's claiming that you called him, the greatest president of your lifetime. And there's actually audio of the conversation that the two of you had, that Fox News aired.
Obviously, you were there for this conversation. But I want everyone else to have a chance to listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MOORE: Mr. President. Welcome back to Maryland, sir. Welcome back to Maryland. It's good to see you.
TRUMP: Good-looking guy (ph). In-person too.
MOORE: Thank you, sir, great to see you. Great to see you. And it's great to have you back here.
TRUMP: (inaudible).
MOORE: Thank you, sir. Thanks to you.
TRUMP: (inaudible).
MOORE: Thank you. Well, we are -- we are very, very anxious to be able to work closely with you, and I know -- I know the Key Bridge is something that we're--
TRUMP: I know, since I got here (ph).
MOORE: It's going well. I mean, we spoke with Speaker Johnson, yesterday.
TRUMP: Yes.
MOORE: And Speaker Johnson says he believes that we're close to the 100 percent cost share.
TRUMP: Yes.
MOORE: And the thing is, I told him, when we get that 100 percent cost share done, we are going to be able to go over the Key Bridge on your watch.
TRUMP: Good. Good. MOORE: Because I will have it done in 28.
TRUMP: Good, good.
MOORE: On time, on budget.
TRUMP: We'll help you out.
MOORE: Thank you, sir.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Did you interact with him at any other point in that conversation? Did you ever tell him he was the greatest president in your lifetime?
MOORE: I know this is breaking news to everybody, but the President is not telling the truth.
What happened, right there, was when I first met the President, and then after he started talking about how I'm a good-looking guy, I started talking about the importance of the Key Bridge, and how this state put on a case study on how to recover in times of crisis, that we're able to bring closure to all six families, to the individuals who were lost that night on the Key Bridge. And when they told us it was going to take 11 months to clear the Federal Channel, that this state got it done in 11 weeks, and we started talking about how it was going to get done.
And then he, later on, invited me to come sit with him at the game. And I told him, I said, I'm good, I have my own seats. And I went to go sit with the Cadets and the Midshipmen.
So no, I never called him the greatest, and I just find it absolutely comical that -- that that was his -- the way he remembered that conversation.
COLLINS: Governor Wes Moore, thank you for your time tonight.
MOORE: Thank you so much.
COLLINS: Also joining me here, Maggie Haberman, White House Correspondent for The New York Times, and also the Author of "Confidence Man: The Making of Donald Trump and the Breaking of America."
And, in your book, Maggie, you look back at Trump's life, growing up in New York, how he kind of built himself in real estate, and before, as he got into politics. I wonder what you make of, of the argument though, that he was making today, that he has successfully changed the conversation here with Democrats.
MAGGIE HABERMAN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, THE NEW YORK TIMES, AUTHOR, "CONFIDENCE MAN": So number one, it's very rare that you have a politician or elected official sort of read the stage directions that way, as in, This is what I'm trying to do, this is what I'm hoping will happen.
Nonetheless, you often do see Republicans try to get the issue to be back on crime, you have over the last several decades, because it's an issue that Republicans believe they have been more successful on.
And there -- look, he is correct that he has set up a dynamic, where there are these imperfect choices, for these Democratic mayors and governors, where they don't, you referred to this earlier, they don't want to look like they're sounding like they're defending crime. On the other hand, the crime levels are not what he is saying they are, but there are a lot of instances of people saying they don't feel safe. So, that leaves them with a tough position.
But there's a difference between saying, Crime is bad, and we don't want crime, and we're going to try to try to take care of it, and I want -- and then I want troops to be in my city. That's just a leap. That is very different.
COLLINS: Well, and that's also some pretty remarkable, with the Governor there, just -- how Trump has described their interactions, and then actually seeing it, because Fox was doing a documentary, and has the conversation on tape.
HABERMAN: Yes.
COLLINS: And as Governor Moore was saying there, that's the only time that they had spoken after the election.
HABERMAN: He says things that are not true, quite often. I think we all know this. We got to see many examples of it, over the course of three hours, during the Cabinet meeting earlier today.
[21:15:00]
But he often says this about people who are oppositional to him, in any way, which is that they did something, or they asked something, or they praised him, or whatever. So, it's not really a surprise. It is rare that the entire thing would be on tape, which is what Governor Moore said.
COLLINS: What did you make of the Cabinet meeting, overall? I mean, it stretched over three hours and to 17 minutes. Repeatedly, there were conversations about the photogs in the room, holding up the -- for the mics, so they could hear everything. Just because it went on for so long. And what you heard from around the table.
HABERMAN: What I heard was an endurance test of who could praise President Trump more.
There were some people who were talking about what their agencies were doing. At one point, Sean Duffy talked about a request for proposals for one of the agencies that he's involved with. You heard Scott Bessent talk some about the economy and the Fed. You heard Secretary Marco Rubio do some of that.
But generally, what you heard was a competition for who could tell President Trump that he had saved the country more, and they started trying to one up each other.
And I think what struck me most was that -- I mean, yes, it was a sort of remarkable duration, obviously. But I assume a lot of those people, including the President of the United States, had other things to do, other than sit and do this, when it was not purely about what the agency's work was. The lead point was to praise him.
COLLINS: Yes, and so Trump talked about the National Guard there.
HABERMAN: Right.
COLLINS: Obviously, saying he plans to extend it here in Washington. We did hear Treasury Secretary, Scott Bessent, talk about their effort to fire this Governor of the Federal Reserve Board. We're going to speak to Senator Elizabeth Warren about that, in just a few moments.
Also, and this weirdly does fit into this theme of Trump's exertion of power, is the Cracker Barrel, debuting its new logo, facing backlash over it, the President himself weighed in this morning. We actually just heard from the deputy White House Chief of Staff weighing in tonight, saying that the company, I don't know if it's a CEO or who, called the White House--
HABERMAN: Right.
COLLINS: --and Taylor Budowich said, he thanks President Trump for weighing in on the issue -- that they thanked him for weighing in on the issue of their iconic original logo, and wanted Trump to know that they had heard him, along with the customer response, and would be restoring the old logo.
Trump himself is now weighing in.
I just wonder, as ridiculous as it might seem to be talking about Cracker Barrel, what this kind of overall says to you?
HABERMAN: Well, look, I mean, he has done this over time. He has often inserted himself into a cultural issue, and he has gotten a lot of attention for himself, and for whatever it is that he's describing.
And you are seeing, I think, him, I don't know how much of this was strategy, or him just wanting to weigh in, or what, but you are seeing the White House trying to engage on culture war issues, because that has been very successful for President Trump, there's no question.
I don't know that this will be a galvanizing moment. But it doesn't stand out as especially surprising. It's just that it comes out at the end of this very long Cabinet meeting day, so it just has an interesting capstone.
COLLINS: Yes. Maggie Haberman, thank you for your reporting.
HABERMAN: Thanks.
COLLINS: As always, great to have you. Also at the White House today, after that Cabinet meeting, I spoke with the Interior Secretary, Doug Burgum, who was in that room for the marathon sit-down. What he had to say about the President's threats to send troops to Democratic-run -- other Democratic-run cities, next. We'll show you that interview, right after this.
[21:20:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: As President Trump convened his top administration officials, for the seventh Cabinet meeting so far of his second term, more than 700,000 Americans, here in the nation's capital, faced day 15 of an escalating federal law enforcement takeover.
With one key figure coordinating federal control is the Interior Secretary, Doug Burgum, who I spoke to at the White House today, shortly after that marathon Cabinet meeting.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: Secretary Burgum, thank you for being here.
Something the President talked about a lot, in that Cabinet meeting today, was the federal takeover of the Police Department here in D.C., the National Guard being deployed. You actually recently moved to deputize Customs and Border Protection officers recently, to be able to patrol national park sites in Washington. Why was that necessary?
DOUG BURGUM, INTERIOR SECRETARY: Well, part of it is just the collaboration we have between all agencies, but deputizing them to be part of the United States Park Police, which is a venerable, honorable organization that's the oldest uniformed law enforcement agency in the country's history.
U.S. Park Police was created by George Washington in 1791, specifically to focus on taking care of federal property, within the District of Columbia. Part of its course today, it's dangerous work in law enforcement. But if you're working outside your jurisdiction, then it creates additional liability.
So, part of we wanted to do is to make sure that those people who are working side by side other federal agencies, including Customs and Border Patrol, that are working alongside of the U.S. Park Police, which have broad authorities here in D.C., to make sure that they've got the same liability protection if they're doing an arrest in the city.
COLLINS: Right, so legally, that justification.
BURGUM: Yes.
COLLINS: But did the Park Police or CBP ask for that?
BURGUM: Well, it was part of our -- we've been meeting together, Cabinet, Secretary leaders, I mean, the whole group led by the White House, whether it's Pete Hegseth with the National Guard, Kristi Noem, Tom Homan with their groups.
The Department of Interior, which, of course, has five law enforcement groups outside of -- I mean, the U.S. Park Police is one of those. We've also got park rangers that work here in D.C. Across the country, we've got Bureau of Indian Affairs. We've got U.S. Fish & Wildlife, Game Wardens. We've got Bureau of Land Management.
41 percent of the southwestern border is actually interior land. So, we've been working in collaboration on law enforcement, both on the border and on enforcing laws inside our country, on federal lands that we control, which represent about 20 percent of the nation's land, is inside of Interior, and we've got primary responsibility of law enforcement on those lands.
[21:25:00]
COLLINS: Let me ask you, because you're the former governor of a state, of a Republican state, of a red state, that what is the view here, when it comes to, the administration is only threatening to deploy the National Guard to Democratic-led cities or Democratic-run states. There is crime in Republican-led states. Why is it only blue states or blue cities that the administration is targeting?
BURGUM: Well, I'd say that it's -- I'd say -- targeting. I think that President Trump has said it again today, over and over, during our Cabinet meeting, when the press was there, said that, what he would like best if he got invited in. I mean, he doesn't understand why this is an issue that--
COLLINS: But they're saying it's not necessary to send in the National Guard.
BURGUM: Well, they're saying -- they're saying that. But again, would they not want to have federal help to help an issue? But if you don't think you have a problem, if you don't think having some of the highest crime rates in the country is a problem, then maybe you think you don't have help. But it's a -- this is just an odd thing.
And I completely concur with the President, when he says, like, if we're against -- this administration is against crime, then the opposite position was, What are you, for crime? And so, this is -- what seems to me, it should be a non-partisan.
And to your question, when you take a look at the top 20, or 25 largest cities in this country, virtually all of those are the ones that have crime issues. And virtually, all of those are run by a particular party. And so, this isn't really a partisan thing. It's just like, pick the cities that need help--
COLLINS: OK.
BURGUM: --and regardless of what party they're in, pick the -- pick places that need help, and then see -- if the federal government has got a blueprint to come in and provide assistance and collaboration to help solve a crime issue, make it safer, which is great for business, great for tourism, great for property values. But again today, he said, Hey, the greatest thing would be if someone just invited me, I think what he's putting out is an offer to say, Look, if we've got a role model where you can -- you can go from and have 11, 12, days in a row without a homicide in a city where that was just -- everyone just got numb to the fact that, Oh, a couple more people got killed today, if you can drive that to zero?
President Trump, whether it's a war abroad, or whether it's crime at home, he wants to stop the killing, he wants to stop the violence. I mean, by nature, he is someone that wants people to have peace and to get along, and he's certainly demonstrating that with his actions around the globe. And now he wants to bring that home.
This is the greatest country in the world, I think every citizen, regardless of party, should have an expectation that you can live in a city, large or small, Republican or Democrat, and be safe in that community. That's the vision he -- that he has and that we're all trying to help him with.
COLLINS: Yes. I just think the question is, because he's only targeting Democratic-led cities, even though there is crime in Republican-led cities, as well.
BURGUM: I wouldn't say targeting. He's not targeting anything. He's basically just, he's putting out an offer to say, Hey, if you have an issue, give us a call. We'll be there to help.
COLLINS: I think the Governor of Maryland might see it differently than that.
But you just got out of a very lengthy Cabinet meeting that happened today. You're obviously the Secretary of the Interior. The White House just stopped work on a wind farm that is being built off the coast of Rhode Island. It was about 80 percent done. It's outraged, not only the company that was doing it, but also elected officials in those areas.
What was the specific justification, legal justification for stopping that project that was -- that was nearly completed?
BURGUM: Well, the stop-work order that went out is based on the fact that there's evidence that not a full review was completed under the Biden administration. There was over 3.5 million acres of offshore land that was pre-approved by the Biden administration for these wind towers. And of course, these wind towers, some of these are, they're taller than the Washington Monument. There can be hundreds of them in a particular wind tower.
And now with, you know, with the groups you're mentioning those that are outraged, there's also people that have come to this administration that are outraged, the people that are concerned about saving the whales, because of the record number of whale groundings that have occurred in the last couple of years near and around those wind farms.
Sean Duffy, Department of Transportation, worried about radar interference. I mean, Sean, just today, publicly shared, during the Cabinet meeting, that there had been a report that had been buried about the fact that a wind farm, if it's too close to a railroad or a highway, could affect the electronics, and--
COLLINS: But the Pentagon reviewed this project in 2023, and they found that there were negligible national security impacts. So, what are the specific ones that this administration is so concerned about, that you would stop it if it's 80 percent of the way done?
BURGUM: Well, I think the -- in particular, there's concerns about radar relative to undersea, and not -- doesn't have to be a large Russian sub, but undersea drones, the new technology.
I mean, the war in Ukraine has shown that swarm attacks by drones, if you're going to launch one into our most populous part of our country, the Pacific Northwest, the way a bad -- you know, people with bad ulterior motives to the United States would launch a swarm drone attack through a wind farm, the radar gets very distorted around detecting, if you're trying to have detect and avoid, if you've got drones coming. So there's new -- there's new--
COLLINS: So, you're just concerned about potential attacks on it, and that's why you're stopping the project altogether?
BURGUM: Well, I think just, it's a whole range of things that need to be reviewed that I don't think were. I mean, sustainability during high-speed storms, the national defense issues relative to radar. Pete Hegseth has got concerns. Bobby Kennedy expressed 10 minutes of concern today, during our Cabinet meeting, because of what happened on Nantucket when one of the blades blew up.
[21:30:00]
And then, of course, the other thing in terms of the preferential treatment that went to these wind farms was that if you're going to build an oil and gas platform, off the coast of Louisiana, you have to put together a full bond that says, if this thing ever has to be taken down, if there's ever an issue, have got all that.
The wind farm guys that have -- that put these projects together, which are massive, massive tax schemes. I mean, 60 to 70 percent of the whole project is around the tax benefit, not around the electric generation.
COLLINS: Secretary Burgum, thank you for your time.
BURGUM: Yes, thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: Up next. We're going to get into the showdown, happening at the Federal Reserve, after President Trump says he is firing Federal Governor, Lisa Cook, as Cook says she's not going anywhere. More on the escalating battle, with Senator Elizabeth Warren ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [21:35:00]
COLLINS: The stage is now being set for what is shaping up to be a landmark battle that could define the limits of President Trump's power, when it comes to the Federal Reserve. As tonight, the Federal Reserve Governor, Lisa Cook, is fighting back against the President's unprecedented move and attempt to fire her, with her attorney now saying that there are plans to file a lawsuit.
After Trump announced his plan, 24 hours ago, on Truth Social, to fire her, she responded by saying that, he purported to fire me for cause when no cause exists under the law, and he has no authority to do so.
She says she's not resigning from her job. As the Justice Department says, it's investigating Lisa Cook for mortgage fraud, based on a criminal referral from inside the Trump administration. I should note, she hasn't been charged, and she's denying any wrongdoing.
As the President today is standing by his decision, and says he even has replacements in mind.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: She seems to have had an infraction. And she can't have an infraction, especially that infraction, because she's in charge of, if you think about it, mortgages, and we need people that are 100 percent above board. And it doesn't seem like she was.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My source tonight is the Democratic senator, Elizabeth Warren of Massachusetts, who is also the ranking Democrat on the Senate's Committee on Banking, Housing and Urban Affairs.
And Senator, what is your reaction to what we heard from President Trump today, basically sounding like he is moving ahead with ousting Lisa Cook from this role?
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D-MA): Look, this is the single biggest attack on the independence of the Federal Reserve, in the entire history of the Federal Reserve. And ultimately, this matters a lot. Because starting back in 1863, when we were first setting up financial regulators, the idea was to insulate them from political judgments.
And when the Fed was set up, in the early 1900s, the whole idea was to make it independent, so that the people who were on the Fed would make decisions based on economic data, not on political pressures. And that has functioned pretty well for a long time.
And Donald Trump is on the attack. He's gone after Jerome Powell. He's gone after the renovations at the Federal Reserve building. And now, they've got these charges, supposedly, against one of the Federal Reserve governors. All of it, as a way for Donald Trump to try to take control over the Fed, to destroy its independence, and to take away something that's very important in our economy and around the world, and that is faith that the Fed is making independent economic decisions--
COLLINS: Yes.
WARREN: --on interest rates, on regulation, on everything.
COLLINS: Well, and just to be clear for everyone watching, the infractions, as the President put it there, is basically about her mortgage applications.
And CNN did a review of the mortgage document that shows she took out mortgages for two properties, both of which were listed as her principal residence. We don't know why, or if she did so intentionally. Obviously, that's something that was referred to the Justice Department, but there's been no charges.
I do think there is a question of this matter of cause, that the President is talking about here, and whether or not, if it's proven to be true--
WARREN: Yes.
COLLINS: --if that does constitute cause to fire her, and remove her, from a position that she's slated to hold until then to 2038.
WARREN: Look, the legal standard for cause here is failure to do her job. And so, it's about inefficiency or malfeasance in office, something that is related to her job. There's case law in this from the past. And clearly, that's not what's going on here.
What's going on here is that one of Donald Trump's hitman has access to data, and he's clearly trying to go through Donald Trump's perceived enemies list, and see if he can dig up dirt on someone, and if it might be enough to help Donald Trump seize control over the Fed.
Look, Donald Trump has a really serious economic problem. And the economic problem he faces is not the Fed. The economic problem he faces is that he promised, think back to a year ago today, he promised over and over and over that he would lower costs for American families on day one.
[21:40:00]
When he got elected, the question was, why did you get elected? And he said, Because I promised to lower costs on day one. Here we are, at what, day 220? And the cost of groceries is up. The cost of utilities is up. The cost of housing is up. The cost of school shoes is up. The cost of baby strollers is up. That's what the American people are experiencing. And Donald Trump wants to find somebody to blame all of that on. He's trying to make the Fed, the bad guys here. He wants to be able to control the Fed, to juice the economy.
And if he undermines the independence of the Fed? Understand this. It's bad for our entire economy, because it means nobody in this country, or anywhere around the world, believes that the Fed is making independent economic decisions, and that's--
COLLINS: Well, and--
WARREN: --that's a real problem.
COLLINS: And I think, just to make it clear, if he is successful here--
WARREN: Sure.
COLLINS: --he basically could -- he'd appoint someone who has his world view, and he'd have a majority of the appointees on the all- powerful Board of Governors.
But can I ask you to follow up on what you just said there?
WARREN: Sure.
COLLINS: Because the one thing that is coming out of this criminal referral -- you're talking about Bill Pulte. He is the Trump ally who's serving as the Federal Housing Finance Agency Director. Now there have been referrals, not just for Lisa Cook, on mortgage fraud, but also against the New York Attorney General, Letitia James, and also, Democratic senator Adam Schiff of California.
WARREN: Right.
COLLINS: I think, I mean, those are three people, one who has voted against the rate cuts that Trump wants, and two others who have either criticized him or prosecuted him. What you make of the fact that all three of them have been accused of mortgage fraud here?
WARREN: Yes, well, here's this guy, Bill Pulte, who has access to everybody's mortgage records, because he's the head of the agency that was designed, in the aftermath of the 2008 crash, to make sure that we don't have widespread mortgage fraud.
Remember when the banks and the mortgage brokers were out there, selling those liars' loans and other loans? That's supposed to be the overall job of this agency.
And here's someone who has taken access to this individual-level data and, it would appear, is running it against Donald Trump's enemies list, to see if he can make a claim, I don't even know if it's true, but make a claim against anyone who has criticized Donald Trump, or who stands in Donald Trump's way for whatever it is Donald Trump wants to do. And that is a -- that is a real abuse of the legal system, overall, and of our agencies, and the work that they are supposed to be doing.
Trying to use government, in this way, is about Donald Trump, and the lackeys around him, trying to bend every part of government to whatever Donald Trump wants, including Donald Trump's revenge tour.
COLLINS: Well, and obviously it's -- we're going to see how it plays out in the courts. The Federal Reserve is basically saying they'll see what the court decision is, and they'll abide by that.
You just talked about the price of groceries, though, and what the President promised on the campaign trail.
WARREN: Yes.
COLLINS: His signature policy bill, he branded as the big beautiful -- the one big, beautiful bill. All the Republicans started calling it that, after the White House did. But today, he said he basically is going to try to rebrand that bill, despite what he has called it for months.
WARREN: Yes.
COLLINS: I want you to just listen to what he said today, compared to what he had said previously.
WARREN: Yes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Last month, I signed one big, beautiful bill.
What we're doing with the great big, beautiful bill.
The great big, beautiful bill. Got that done.
I call it the great big, beautiful bill. I added one word, great.
One big, beautiful bill. I used to call it the great one, big beautiful. We took the word, great, out. But it's actually called the one big, beautiful bill.
The bill that -- I'm not going to use the term, great, big, beautiful. That was good for getting it approved, but it's not good for explaining to people what it's all about. It's a massive tax cut for the middle-class.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: What does it say to you, if he wants to call it something else?
WARREN: Right. He is rebranding it, because that one big, beautiful bill is deeply unpopular among the American people. Principal reason is, well, it takes away health care from about 15 million Americans, including little babies, and seniors in nursing homes, and does that in order to give trillions of dollars in tax cuts to a handful of billionaires and billionaire corporations.
[21:45:00]
People across America have gotten a look at this bill, and they don't like what they see. So, what Donald Trump and the Republicans are hoping is that they can rename it, and run away from it as fast as possible. That bill stinks, and the American people can smell it. And Donald Trump is hoping that if he can put a new name on it, no one will notice. Well, I just got to say, the American people are smarter than that. COLLINS: Senator Elizabeth Warren, thank you for your time tonight.
WARREN: You bet.
COLLINS: Up next here on THE SOURCE. The President, driving a hard bargain, and by that, I'm saying, an ultimatum with Harvard, when it comes to restoring its federal funding. This is what he told his Education Secretary today, in that lengthy Cabinet meeting.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:50:00]
COLLINS: President Trump is apparently disregarding the art of the deal, at least when it comes to Harvard. As instead, he gave the school a $500 million ultimatum, today, calling on the university to pay a hefty settlement, in order to get its federal funding back.
This is what he told his Education Secretary, Linda McMahon, during today's Cabinet meeting.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: We want nothing less than $500 million from Harvard.
(LAUGHTER)
TRUMP: Don't negotiate, Linda. They've been--
LINDA MCMAHON, UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF EDUCATION: All right.
TRUMP: They've been very bad.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Harvard has been one of the administration's biggest targets in its campus crackdown that has been underway. It's the only school that is battling the White House in court. And soon, a federal judge is expected to rule in the funding case.
My source tonight is Brendan Ballou, former Special Counsel at the Justice Department's Antitrust Division.
And obviously, the School has argued, this violates their First Amendment rights.
The Cabinet, some of the other members were laughing there. I don't think the President was kidding when he was saying, Don't take anything less than this.
I wonder what you think, does that affect how the judge rules here at all?
BRENDAN BALLOU, FORMER SPECIAL COUNSEL, JUSTICE DEPT. ANTITRUST DIVISION: No, it shouldn't affect how the judge rules at all. It might affect how Harvard responds to the accusations here. I'll say, based on the complaint that Harvard filed, and based on the court hearing so far, they have an incredibly strong case, you know? They have a very strong First Amendment case. They have an even stronger statutory claim, explaining that the administration didn't follow the proper procedures in actually stopping this money from going to them.
The challenge that we've got is there's rumors that this administration, the Harvard administration, might settle, which either means that they're worried about the time that it's going to cost -- take to litigate this thing. They're worried that the Supreme Court is going to change the law, in the President's favor. Or they're worried that the President is just going to ignore a court order.
COLLINS: How do they think the Supreme Court would change the law in his favor?
BALLOU: There's been rumblings, for years, on the far conservative end of the Supreme Court, from Justice Thomas and Alito, really trying to reevaluate the fundamental structures of the First Amendment. This could be potentially one of those cases that would be a vehicle to do that.
COLLINS: And so, if they settle, I mean, the question is, what precedent that creates, given, when they first were standing up, they earned a lot of praise from critics of this White House, who did not like how they were handling this.
Harvard actually came up later in today's Cabinet meeting, and I want you to listen to what was said today at the White House.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOWARD LUTNICK, COMMERCE SECRETARY: I mean, we just have a blast, you know, because Linda's hitting Harvard, and she says, What can we do? Now we send them a patent letter and we'll hit them again, so.
(LAUGHTER)
LUTNICK: We're having fun together.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I mean, it kind of speaks to how they are viewing this, as they find it enjoyable, watching these institutions capitulate to them.
BALLOU: Yes, you know, and hopefully, the people at Harvard are listening to this meeting. Because I can understand, if you're the President of Harvard, you are facing losing billions of dollars. And I completely understand, look, we need to make a deal in order to keep jobs, in order to keep important research going forward.
But if nobody -- if Harvard can't stand up here, with a $50 billion endowment, how can we expect any other university, expect any other land-grant college, expect a community college, to stand up here? And why would we expect a bully, having gotten what he wanted, to stop here?
COLLINS: Yes, I mean, we've seen it with other schools as well.
I want to also ask you about Jack Smith, a name that we have not spoken about lately. The former Special Counsel. He's responding to this federal investigation that has been launched by the administration into him, where basically they're looking to see if he engaged in political activities during his prosecutions.
They say, in a new letter tonight, that the predicate for this investigation is imaginary and unfounded, and that Mr. Smith followed well-established legal principles in conducting the investigations into President Trump.
We've not actually heard from him. This is the first time, I believe, since this. I wonder what you make of the case he has here.
BALLOU: It's imaginary. I think they're exactly right. The fundamental evidence here is non-existent. And really, what this investigation is about is rewriting the history of January 6.
COLLINS: Brendan Ballou, we will see what happens. Thanks to you for joining us with your legal expertise tonight.
BALLOU: Thank you.
COLLINS: And up next here on THE SOURCE. It is the love story that is breaking the internet, with Taylor Swift announcing her engagement era with fiance, Travis Kelce. What they've said about their relationship, and where it stands, right after this.
[21:55:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: It is a love story, and Taylor Swift said yes, as she and Kansas City Chiefs tight end, Travis Kelce, shared their engagement today, on Instagram, less than two weeks after she joined him and, his brother, Jason, on their podcast, "New Heights," which is when she announced her new album, called "The Life of a Showgirl," and offered a peek into their relationship.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SWIFT: So, I was like, If this guy isn't crazy, which is a big if, this is sort of what I've been writing songs about wanting to happen to me, since I was--
JASON KELCE, AMERICAN FORMER PROFESSIONAL FOOTBALL CENTER: Yes.
SWIFT: -- a teenager.
TRAVIS KELCE, AMERICAN PROFESSIONAL FOOTBALL TIGHT END, KANSAS CITY CHIEFS, NATIONAL FOOTBALL LEAGUE: Yes, and I was sitting there at the Eras Tour, listening to every single one of those songs like, she -- I know what she wants me to do. SWIFT: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: The announcement post featured a slideshow of proposal photos, in a green and pink garden, with the caption, Your English teacher and your gym teacher are getting married, and Swift's song, "So High School" playing in the background.
[22:00:00]
Of course, the couple began dating almost two years ago. They have been in the public eye since then, with Swift cheering on Kelce at several of the Chiefs games, and Kelce even appearing at several of her Eras Tour concerts as well. With this news, the music legend and football star are officially End Game.
Thanks so much for joining us here.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" is up next.
