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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Trump Celebrates Kimmel's Suspension: "Great News"; Vance Blames "Left-Wing Radicals" For Gunning Down Kirk; Fired CDC Director: Never Told RFK Jr. I Was Untrustworthy. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired September 17, 2025 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: --based on those allegations, how would they -- what would the posture be?
JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST, FORMER NYPD DEPUTY COMMISSIONER OF INTELLIGENCE & COUNTERTERRORISM, FORMER FBI ASSISTANT DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC AFFAIRS: So, I mean, the posture with five officers mean, they came with an arrest team and a backup team, in case they had to cover the front and the back. It's pretty standard when they're going for arrest, even if they're misdemeanor charges, which there was.
But it also is a reminder, especially with emotionally-charged situations, domestic situations, how fast and how violently these things can spin out of control.
COOPER: Our condolences to the families.
John Miller, thank you.
The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: It's 02:00 a.m., here in the United Kingdom, where President Trump is spending the final night of his state visit. And from Windsor Castle tonight, right behind me, he has just weighed in on the major news coming out of the United States. Jimmy Kimmel being yanked off the air.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
It may be early in the morning here, in the United Kingdom. But President Trump, who is staying behind me for the final night of his state visit, with the Royal Family, here at Windsor Castle, is celebrating after ABC announced that it is taking Jimmy Kimmel's late- night show off the air indefinitely, following criticism over comments that he made in the days after Charlie Kirk's murder.
The President declared victory, basically tonight, writing on Truth Social that this is, quote, "Great News for America: The ratings challenged Jimmy Kimmel Show is CANCELLED. Congratulations to ABC for finally having the courage to do what had to be done. Kimmel has ZERO talent, and worse ratings than even Colbert, if that's possible. That leaves Jimmy and Seth, two total losers, on Fake News NBC. Their ratings are also horrible. Do it NBC."
Now, before we go any further about the major questions that have been raised by this decision tonight, I want you to listen to Jimmy Kimmel, in his own words, during his monolog, on Monday night.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JIMMY KIMMEL, HOST, "JIMMY KIMMEL LIVE": We hit some new lows over the weekend with the MAGA gang desperately trying to characterize this kid who murdered Charlie Kirk as anything other than one of them and doing everything they can to score political points from it.
In between the finger-pointing, there was grieving. On Friday, the White House flew the flags at half-staff, which got some criticism. But on a human level, you can see how hard the President is taking this.
REPORTER: My condolences on the loss of your friend Charlie Kirk. May I ask, sir, personally, how are you holding up over the last day and a half, sir?
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I think very good. And, by the way, right there, you see all the trucks. They just started construction of the new ballroom for the White House, which is something they've been trying to get, as you know, for about a 150 years, and it's going to be a beauty.
(LAUGHTER)
KIMMEL: Yes, he's at the fourth stage of grief. Construction.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
KIMMEL: It's Demolition.
(APPLAUSE)
KIMMEL: Construction.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: That was the comment that Jimmy Kimmel made, on Monday night.
It comes after what he shared in the short aftermath of Kirk's assassination, where Jimmy Kimmel wrote, quote, "Instead of the angry finger-pointing, can we just for one day agree that it is horrible and monstrous to shoot another human? On behalf of my family, we send love to the Kirks and to all the children, parents and innocents who fall victim to senseless gun violence."
Now, this decision tonight has raised many questions beyond the actions of an individual company. That's because this announcement comes just hours after we heard from the FCC chairman, Brendan Carr, in an interview, where he said that Jimmy Kimmel should be removed over his comments about Charlie Kirk's killing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRENDAN CARR, FCC CHAIRMAN: You know, when you look at the conduct that has taken place by Jimmy Kimmel, it appears to be some of the sickest conduct possible. As you've indicated, there are, you know, avenues here for the FCC. So there are some ways in which I need to be a little bit careful, because we could be called, ultimately, to be a judge on some of these claims that come up.
Look, there's calls for Kimmel to be fired. I think, you know, you could certainly see a path forward for suspension over this. And again, you know, the FCC is going to have remedies that we could look at.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Like what Jimmy Kimmel said or not, find it tasteful or distasteful. That is the FCC chair saying there, in the wake of that, that there are remedies that the FCC could look at.
One thing that's important to note here, as we look at this, is how Kimmel's departure from the airwaves has been a goal for President Trump's, for quite some time, long before the comments that he made about Charlie Kirk, and how Trump was responding to his death.
Trump himself has said more than once that he wanted Jimmy Kimmel off the air.
[21:05:00]
On July 29th, this is what he wrote, after CBS announced it was canceling Stephen Colbert's late-night show. The President said he believed that Jimmy Kimmel would be next.
And he said this from the White House, just in August.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Colbert has no talent. I mean, I could take anybody here. I could go outside in the beautiful streets and pick a couple of people that do just as well or better. They get higher ratings than he did. He's got no talent. Fallon has no talent. Kimmel has no talent. They're next. They're going to be going. I hear they're going to be going.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Trump said he heard that they are going to be going.
I want to get straight to CNN's Chief Media Analyst, Brian Stelter, and CNN's Senior Legal Analyst, Elie Honig, who are both here tonight.
And Brian, one thing that stands out tonight is that it is 9 o'clock on the East Coast. It's just past 02:00 a.m., here in the United Kingdom. Obviously, Trump has weighed in. BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA ANALYST: Yes.
COLLINS: We haven't heard from Jimmy Kimmel himself yet, or his show, on this.
STELTER: That's what I keep waiting for. That's what I'm refreshing for, Kaitlan.
Kimmel's camp has had about three hours now, to process this decision by ABC. They were just about to start production of the episode, when this decision was handed down. Some fans were already lined up, ready to head inside the studio in West Hollywood. So Kimmel's voice is going to be really important. That's the next big part of this story. What will he say, and when?
Kimmel's contract with ABC was coming due in just a few months. I believe it was set to expire at the end of this year. So, this could be the end of the show forever, right? Maybe the show will not come back.
Or maybe ABC is going to react to the very loud criticism that the company is facing, right now. Everyone from, yes, Democratic politicians, free speech groups, but also many ordinary fans of Kimmel who wanted to see him tonight, in the coming days. Because every reaction causes a counterreaction, and I'm very interested to see what the counterreaction is here, among the millions of--
COLLINS: Yes.
STELTER: --Kimmel fans who are going to want to see him on the air.
But right now, Kaitlan, the entertainment industry, is in absolute shock. This feels like a worst-case scenario for many entertainers, comedians, political activists, figures who want to have free speech rights in this country and feel that they are in threat -- under threat right now.
COLLINS: Well, Brian, can I ask you on that? Because I know sometimes, as a reporter covering a beat, you hear rumors about someone's departure, or firing coming.
STELTER: Right, right--
COLLINS: Had there been rumors about this happening? Had you had any indication that Jimmy Kimmel, a very popular host, was about to be pulled off of ABC?
STELTER: Fears, but not rumors. What we have been hearing, in recent weeks, were fears, murmurs about what the political environment is like, a sense that President Trump wanted Kimmel canceled, a sense that Disney does feel the pressure from the Trump administration.
Disney is a big company. It doesn't just have broadcast stations. It also has theme parks everybody loves. It also has lots of other lines of business. So, the company does have to take the government's threats seriously. We are in a whole new world, when it comes to this administration being willing and able to exert its pressure against private corporations, a world that these executives, these CEOs, frankly, do not want to live in, right? Disney CEO, Bob Iger, he thought about running for president. He would have been running as a Democrat. He is not a MAGA figure. But he is doing what he might believe is best for his business in this moment.
And this is going to embolden the Trump allies, who are prioritizing not just control the government, but also control of culture. They're not trying to just add new conservative voices to the air. They're trying to squash the liberal voices they don't like. And, at least for tonight, they are succeeding.
COLLINS: Elie Honig, what's your legal view of this, in terms of what we heard from the FCC chair, not only hours before this happened. But he was cheering this, in a message to Brian, earlier, that he was posting. It was a meme from "The Office" of Michael Scott dancing. What are the legal implications here for people who are asking whether or not this is legal?
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY, SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NY: So, the key decision-maker here is ABC itself. Now, given the pressure tactics that have been put out there, by the FCC commissioner, we just saw that clip, by the President at times, ABC really had two options.
Option one, which they took, would be to suspend Jimmy Kimmel. They're a private entity, ABC. They cannot be sued under the First Amendment. The First Amendment only applies to governmental entities. Congress shall make no law. So, ABC could have chosen option A, suspend Jimmy Kimmel, save yourself the money, the political hassle, whatever it is. Good or bad, that's ABC decision.
But option B, which I think is really more important, which ABC chose not to take, is they could have taken a stand. They could have said, We're not going to give into the pressure. And then, if and when the FCC took action, ABC could have challenged that in court. And I am quite confident that they would have won on First Amendment grounds, because now we're talking about governmental action. Now we're talking about the FCC, which is part of the executive branch.
[21:10:00]
There is some case law related to this. We've never seen a case quite like this. But basically, there was a case, involving the Biden administration, this practice called jawboning, which basically means behind-the-scenes effort to influence what's being put up on social media or in media.
And basically, what the courts have told us is the key question is, is the government's conduct coercive? Is it so strong that it amounts to coercion?
And if you look at the statements that you just played, Kaitlan, by the FCC commissioner? That's pretty straightforward. That's pretty coercive. I mean, that's basically on the borderline of a threat. And I think had ABC stood up, I think they would have won in court.
COLLINS: Well, and so Brian, just to be clear, I saw your post on this, that this happened. Nexstar was the first, I believe, to say that they were not going to be airing
STELTER: Yes.
COLLINS: --Jimmy Kimmel's show.
STELTER: That's right.
COLLINS: You reported back in August, and I think this is important context here for everyone to keep in mind, that Nexstar had agreed to a $6.2 billion deal to buy another broadcast heavyweight in what would be a huge consolidation of local TV stations. That is a deal that requires the approval of the federal government.
STELTER: Yes, this is the key to the story. Even though it's a little bit nerdy, this shows how the governmental abuse of power is actually happening, affecting private companies.
So, Nexstar already owns lots of TV stations. It wants to merge with Tegna, which owns lots of other stations. In order to do that, it needs Brendan Carr, the FCC chair's permission, and it actually needs the FCC to change the regulations entirely about how many stations an individual company can own.
So, Nexstar has all of this pending business before the government. Tegna also does. And there's another big station owner, called Sinclair, that also has business pending before the government.
So, what do we know tonight? We know that both Nexstar and Sinclair called up ABC, this afternoon, complained about Kimmel, and said they were yanking the show off their stations. ABC subsequently yanked the show, nationwide.
So, we know that two major TV station owners, both of which need to curry favor with the Trump administration, were the ones that most loudly and vocally condemned Kimmel, and said they were going to not air the show tonight, and in the coming nights.
COLLINS: Yes.
STELTER: This, it's an Occam's Razor situation. It's exactly what it looks like.
COLLINS: Well, and Elie on that front. I mean Brendan Carr, people might not be familiar with the FCC chair. He's a huge ally of the President's. We've actually invited him to come on and talk about this decision, talk about his comments about this. We'll see if he does.
I want you to listen to what he also said today, when it came to what the administration has been doing, and their relationship with media companies, as Brian just alluded to there.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) CARR: We can do this the easy way or the hard way. These companies can find ways to change conduct, to take action, frankly, on Kimmel, or, you know, there's going to be additional work for the FCC ahead.
I mean, look, NPR has been defunded. PBS has been defunded. Colbert is retiring. Joy Reid is out at MSNBC. Terry Moran has gone from ABC. And is now admitting that they are biased. CBS has now made some commitments to us that they're going to return to more fact-based journalism. And so, I think you see some lashing out, from people like Kimmel, who are, frankly, talentless--
BENNY JOHNSON, AMERICAN COMMENTATOR AND YOUTUBER: Yes.
CARR: --and are looking for ways to get attention.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Elie, what do those comments say to you?
HONIG: Well, the easy way or the hard way. That's the exact quote we just heard. That is a textbook example of coercion. That is what the courts look at, to decide whether the government has overstepped. What could be more coercive than to say, The easy way or the hard way?
And Kaitlan, I think I have to draw a parallel here as well. Donald Trump and his administration are making similar moves, have made similar moves, yes, certainly focused on the media, but also focused on American universities, also focused on the largest law firms in the country. And essentially, the deal they've been offered has been exactly the same. Easy way or hard way.
And by the way, these are mostly private entities that we're talking about. And when they look at the bottom line, the easy way is, We pay off, we pay a settlement, we fire somebody, it costs us whatever, $10 million, $16 million, we avoid a political fight, we avoid a costly legal battle.
You can understand, I'm not saying, I'm not excusing it, but you can understand why a rational, bottom-line focused private entity would choose the easy way.
The hard way is, you go into court, you fight, maybe you win, maybe you don't. You make an enemy in the White House.
But I do want to say this. Those who have chosen the hard way, a handful of law firms who have challenged this, Harvard and other universities who have challenged this, they're undefeated in the courts. The courts understand that all of this violates the First Amendment. That's why Trump is lost every time someone has stood up against him and gone into court on one of these types of issues.
COLLINS: Yes. But he's been touting these settlements as he did the one with ABC News--
HONIG: Yes.
COLLINS: --on his way here to the U.K.
Elie Honig. Brian Stelter.
Obviously, Brian, if you hear anything from Jimmy Kimmel or ABC, we'll have you back on this hour.
STELTER: I will.
COLLINS: Also joining us on this breaking news, Democratic congressman of Maryland, Jamie Raskin.
And sir, obviously we were having you on, to talk about an entirely different subject. But given this news, do you agree with what Elie said there that comments like that that we hear from the FCC chair are, as Elie put it, textbook coercion?
[21:15:00]
REP. JAMIE RASKIN (D-MD): Well, it's absolute corruption of government, and it's absolute violation of the free speech rights of the people, and of the media. And this is really taking us back to the days of King George, where it was a crime to insult the president.
They didn't like what Jimmy Kimmel said about Donald Trump. He really -- all he really did was show everybody what Trump's reaction was to being asked how he was faring, and he was immediately talking about reconstruction of the ballroom. But in any event, he was offended by that.
That was a crime, in Great Britain, to insult the dignity of the King, because the King was seen to have the authority of God behind him. So, it was an insult of God. It was called lese-majeste.
So basically, you insult the President, and he uses the full power of the federal government, the Federal Communications Commission, to threaten everything you want to do with your business, and all your broadcast licenses, unless you pay him off through the various lawsuits that he has filed, the sham lawsuits he's filed against you, or you get rid of the people who dare to offend the King.
And this is a very dangerous moment for American constitutional democracy. He has sued ABC, CBS, NBC, Washington Post, New York Times, Wall Street Journal, you name it, and he -- you know, for billions of dollars, and he shakes them down for millions of dollars. And more importantly, he gets his way with how they are going to report the news or express their opinions. And you've got a Chair of the FCC who's acting like a Communist Commissar.
COLLINS: Well, Congressman, we actually just heard from Brendan Carr, the Chair of the FCC, moments ago. He's on Fox, talking about this announcement. I want you to listen to what the FCC chair had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CARR: President Trump ran directly at these legacy broadcast outlets, and he exposed them to these market forces, and a lot of these affiliate groups said, to your point, We're tired of carrying this stuff.
Late-night shows, something has gone seriously awry there. They went from going for applause -- from laugh lines to applause lines. They went from being court jesters that would make fun of everybody in power, to being court clerics, and enforcing a very narrow political ideology.
And Nexstar, as you noted, stood up and said, Look, we have the license and we don't want to run this anymore. We don't think it serves the interests of our community. Sinclair did the same thing. So, there's more work to go, but I'm very glad to see that America's broadcasters are standing up to serve the interests of their community, and we don't just have this progressive foie gras coming out from New York and Hollywood.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: What's your reaction to those comments?
RASKIN: It was not remotely market forces. The market was operating before. It was pure government coercion and threats from Brendan Carr, and from Donald Trump, and the browbeating of corporations who need the FCC's approval for various broadcast licenses and so on, to go and do this.
And the second thing is, the guy obviously understands nothing about the First Amendment, because he is openly broadcasting the fact that this was what we call, under the First Amendment, viewpoint discrimination. He doesn't like what they're saying, he doesn't like the point of view that they're representing, and he's using the full power of the government to squelch their speech.
COLLINS: If someone is watching right now, and listening to this, and they heard what we played, just Jimmy Kimmel's, in his own words, on Monday night, and they say, Well, those comments were distasteful, and maybe he shouldn't have this position. What would you say to that person about the call that ABC has made here, if they believe it's just a company, an individual company, making this call on their own?
RASKIN: OK, first of all, Jimmy Kimmel was obviously punished, and they went after ABC because they simply exposed what Donald Trump said, when they asked how he was faring. So, they insulted the dignity of the President King just by showing how deeply he felt about the situation. Let's leave it at that. So, it didn't seem remotely distasteful for me.
But in any event, under the First Amendment, to the Constitution of the United States, you have the right to engage in speech that is distasteful and offensive and disagreeable to other people. If you don't, we don't have a First Amendment, because everybody is offended by -- somebody is offended by MSNBC, somebody is offended by Fox News, somebody is offended by CNN. That's fine. You can turn it off if you don't like it. But you don't get to go around as the government and police other people's speech.
[21:20:00] I mean, understand, if we go down this road, and it seems like this is where we are, we are destroying the freedom of expression in America. And these late-night talk show hosts and whatever TV networks have the courage and the backbone to do it, have got to fight the FCC, and fight Donald Trump's attempt to clamp down at freedom of speech. This is like the Intolerable Acts by King George in the 18th century. These are intolerable violations of the rights of the freedom of press and the freedom of speech.
COLLINS: I want to ask about some oversight that happened on Capitol Hill today.
But just on this. Does Congress have oversight of what happened here? Do you believe there's anything that Congress should do here?
RASKIN: Well, absolutely, and I hope we can find enough Republicans, we would only need a handful, to understand and to declare that, No, we are not going to accept FCC control over private media entities in America. We are not going to accept the FCC, trying to dictate what speech the people can hear. We're going to let the real market decide, not the phony market, which is just governmental coercion through the FCC. So, yes.
And that's why we need to take back the Congress. Forgive me for striking a political note on Constitution Day. But unless we get Republicans to come over and join us, in a common alliance, for the Constitution, the way that Liz Cheney did, the way Adam Kinzinger did, the way Mitt Romney did, then it -- then all of the burden is going to have to be on the Democratic Party, to turn this around.
COLLINS: Yes.
RASKIN: But it's a very dangerous moment for those who believe in the Bill of Rights.
COLLINS: Well, and none of them are in Congress anymore, I should note.
But on that front, you questioned the FBI director, Kash Patel, today, alongside other Republicans and Democrats, on the Epstein files. What was your takeaway from what you heard from Kash Patel?
RASKIN: Well, first of all, I was cheered that Kash Patel actually said that he denounced political violence across the board. Some of our right-wing MAGA colleagues could only bring themselves to denounce political violence on the left, which is, of course, much less, if you look at the ADL report, for example, than political violence on the right. But in any event, it shouldn't be some kind of game of counting wins and losses on both sides. We should denounce it across the board, and he did.
But having said that, he was speaking complete gobbledygook, when it came to the Epstein files. I showed him numerous cases where he said, before they got into office, that the Epstein files should be released in their entirety, and it is completely up to the Director of the FBI. It's completely within their control. And at one point, he's taunting the FBI, he's taunting the Republicans in Congress. He says, Pull up your big boy pants and show us who the pederasts are.
And so, I said to him that he's got to take his own advice now. He is the Director of FBI. Pull up your big boy pants and show us who the pederasts are. Just disclose the files, so we can understand the full magnitude and scope of the international child sex trafficking ring that was being run by Epstein and Maxwell and others.
It came out today that there were four banks, who had -- who reported more than a billion and a half dollars in suspicious activity reports--
COLLINS: Yes.
RASKIN: --with respect to the whole Epstein ring, and we moved to subpoena them to come in.
Jamie Dimon said he would have no problem complying with that. But the Republicans, except for the Honorable Representative Massie from Kentucky, voted not to subpoena them. But all the Democrats voted to subpoena them. And I'm very proud of the constitutional patriots, on the House Judiciary Committee, and what they did today.
COLLINS: Congressman Jamie Raskin, thank you for your time tonight.
RASKIN: Thank you.
COLLINS: Up next here for us. We are staying on top of the breaking news, as we are waiting for word from Jimmy Kimmel, or ABC, in itself, more than the statement they put out tonight, saying that they were pulling his show indefinitely off the air.
And also, what about those comments that President Trump made, his first day in office, when he said he was signing executive orders on government censorship?
We'll be back, right after this.
[21:25:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Back with our breaking news tonight, as Jimmy Kimmel's late- night show has been indefinitely pulled off the air, by ABC, this evening, over comments that he made about Charlie Kirk.
Critics say that this is the latest move, by the Trump administration, to censor a known critic of theirs, and someone that Trump has long wanted off air, despite previously vowing to champion free speech in office.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I will also sign an executive order to immediately stop all government censorship and bring back free speech to America.
(APPLAUSE) TRUMP: Never again will the immense power of the state be weaponized to persecute political opponents.
(APPLAUSE)
TRUMP: And I banned all government censorship and restored free speech in America. We have free speech.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Max Foster (ph) joining me here live, in Windsor, where the President is spending the night, and celebrating this move by ABC, along with my inside sources.
Shermichael Singleton is a Republican strategist.
And Bill Carter is here. He's a former New York Times media reporter.
And Bill, can I start with you? Because obviously, we hear those comments there, from the President. You are someone who has covered the media ecosystem for decades. What is your reaction to this move by ABC tonight? Are you shocked by it?
BILL CARTER, FORMER NEW YORK TIMES MEDIA REPORTER, AUTHOR, "THE WAR FOR LATE NIGHT": I am actually shocked by ABC doing it.
I mean, ABC was under crazy pressure because Carr had leverage. He has tremendous leverage over Nexstar, which needs government help to add stations. Just like the Colbert thing, they had leverage to make them basically concede. And ABC had to make a quick decision, here tonight, about what was it going to do, because stations were bailing on them.
But I mean, Trump coming out and saying he was for free speech was obviously never going to be the case. He was always trying to keep these people quiet who criticized him.
[21:30:00]
And by the way, the idea that this was comments about Charlie Kirk is crazy. This is all about the joke he made about Trump. It had -- he didn't say anything bad about Charlie Kirk, whatsoever.
And Carr called it the sickest conduct possible. There was nothing sick about it. It was a standard joke about the President.
But Trump is -- there's never been a Trump -- never been a president who is more thin-skinned. He cannot take criticism. And now, he has the power to try to stop it. And clearly, nothing is going to prevent him from acting this way. He's going to try to get him canceled. He's not canceled, by the way. Despite what Trump has said, this is not a cancelation notice.
COLLINS: Well, OK, because there's two comments here that everyone is pointing to.
One, the one that you're noting there, where he was mocking Trump, because Trump was asked by a reporter, about grieving Charlie Kirk. He answered quite quickly, and then pointed to trucks -- construction trucks that were out on the South Lawn of the White House.
Shermichael, conservatives are saying tonight that it's this comment that warranted Jimmy Kimmel's ouster.
I just want to play the isolated moment. We played at the beginning of the show. But everyone's saying that we're not talking about the right Jimmy Kimmel comment. So, I want everyone to hear clearly, in Kimmel's own words, what he said that has offended a lot of Charlie Kirk's friends and allies.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KIMMEL: We hit some new lows over the weekend with the MAGA gang desperately trying to characterize this kid who murdered Charlie Kirk as anything other than one of them and doing everything they can to score political points from.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: So, he's talking there, about trying to characterize the killer here, the suspect that is in custody this evening.
Shermichael, as a conservative, and as a Republican, what is your reaction to ABC's call tonight?
SHERMICHAEL SINGLETON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Look -- well, first of all, I thought Kimmel's comments were just stupid.
I mean, obviously, based on the evidence that we have heard, thus far, from the investigators and prosecutors currently in charge of the case, it certainly appears, and I want to use the word, appears, that this guy was certainly someone who had an ideology that I would argue, if you were looking at a political spectrum, is on the left of that political spectrum versus being on the right. Number one.
That said, I think Disney is looking at their bottom line. I mean, Disney has faced several tough cycles where they have had some serious financial issues.
And when you have Nexstar and Sinclair -- those two entities combined, cover 80 percent of the local television market in this country. If those two conglomerates are saying, We're not going to carry this show because it's not in sync with our values as corporations? Or we've heard some anger from some of our individuals who watch in our various stations? Or, as Bill stated, you have business before the federal government that you would like to move forward.
And by the way, those companies have a fiduciary responsibility to grow and expand those companies for their investors, and they're canceling? Then ABC had no choice but to say, You know what? If we don't cancel this, then you run the risk of conservatives saying, We're canceling Disney+, we're not going to Disney World or Disneyland, we're going to no longer purchase anything that fits under the Disney umbrella?
That becomes a very serious question, if you're Bob Iger running this company that has had serious financial issues, for at least eight -- six or eight quarters now. That's the last thing you want. You're going to go ahead and say, You know what? This isn't worth it for us, from a company's perspective. Cancel it and we just keep moving forward.
CARTER: Kaitlan -- Kaitlan, can I point out though that--
COLLINS: Yes, it's just hard to ignore the comments from--
CARTER: --Shermichael's point--
COLLINS: Yes, go ahead, Bill.
CARTER: Shermichael's point -- Shermichael's point is that Kimmel was saying against the evidence.
But he was doing this on Monday. This was before the court thing. This was before all that evidence came forward. This is two days ago when he said that. So, it wasn't quite as certain what he was talking about.
And he was basically saying, They're saying anything, but. That he wasn't saying -- it wasn't about -- how is it offensive to Charlie Kirk? It wasn't offensive to him at all. Basically saying that they're trying to say it's not the left or the right.
And his own personal comment was incredibly sympathetic to Charlie Kirk and to the family. So, it was not -- it's not aimed at him. It was -- it was not aimed at Charlie Kirk.
SINGLETON: But you know what, Bill? I will say, considering the heightened moment that we're in--
COLLINS: Shermichael?
SINGLETON: I would say, considering the heightened moment that we're in, perhaps saying, You know what? Maybe it's not right or best to make any type of a joke, as it pertains to this, until more information, more evidence, comes out, I think would have been wise of Jimmy Kimmel to do that. I would have done that.
Bill, I suspect you, as an intelligent person, would have said, You know what? I'm looking at the moment that we're in, I'm going to hold that joke to myself. I'm going to reserve that for a different day.
And he did not. And here we are with the consequences, as a result.
CARTER: That's a fair comment, but it does not mean--
COLLINS: Yes--
CARTER: --he's in violation of free speech. I mean, it's taking it pretty far, to say he should have maybe been wiser to hold the joke, then let's cancel.
[21:35:00]
COLLINS: Yes. And on this front, I should note, we're sitting here in Windsor. It was past -- it was about 01:10 in the morning here, when President Trump weighed in. I've been texting White House officials to see what his reaction was. Obviously, he was going to be quite happy about this.
And Max Foster, they just finished the state dinner, the state banquet. The reason that is relevant to this is one person whose name -- name card I saw, when we went in there to get a preview of this, was Rupert Murdoch, who is engaged in his own legal battle with Trump, who is suing The Wall Street Journal for coverage that he did not like. They published the Epstein birthday card, that they say has his name on it. Trump has denied that it's his.
But Rupert Murdoch, who Trump wants testimony from in court, was sitting there at the table with him.
MAX FOSTER, CNN ANCHOR AND CORRESPONDENT: Yes, and it's a bit of a mystery. I can't imagine the Palace would have put him on the list. So then you wonder, did the White House put him on the list?
Either way, the relationship can't be as broken as we think, because if the Palace put him on the list, then Donald Trump would have had veto rights. There's no way they would have invited someone along who Donald Trump didn't want there. So, he would have said, either, I want him there and invited him, or said, It's OK for the Palace to invite him, and they would have had an opportunity to speak.
COLLINS: Yes, that's a good point in terms of what this looks like.
Max Foster. Shermichael Singleton. Bill Carter. Great to have all of you.
We're going to have more on this breaking story, as we are waiting for ABC to either elaborate on this ouster of Jimmy Kimmel of his show indefinitely, or on what is happening with the FCC.
Joining me next is Editor-in-Chief of Semafor, who just interviewed Brendan Carr, the FCC chair, a couple months ago. What he had to say to him, then.
[21:40:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: It has been several hours since ABC announced that it was indefinitely pulling Jimmy Kimmel's show off the air.
We have yet to hear from Kimmel himself on this decision. As Brian Stelter noted earlier, his staff was likely preparing for their broadcast when they found out this news tonight about being indefinitely pulled. It comes after comments that he made about Charlie Kirk's murder and assassination, and also the suspected killer who has been in custody, of course.
It's a stunning decision that also comes hours after we heard from the FCC chair himself, Brendan Carr, after he was publicly pressuring ABC to punish Kimmel for his what -- for his comments and what he said.
Joining me tonight is the Co-Founder and Editor-in-Chief of Semafor, Ben Smith.
Bill Carter is also back with us.
And Ben, I know you spoke with Brendan Carr, not that long ago. What do you make of his role in this decision tonight?
BEN SMITH, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, SEMAFOR (On Telephone): Well, yes, I mean, I think Brendan Carr has a very different view of essentially, free speech and the role of the media than I think most of us grew up with.
I had him on stage, and I asked him, Do you -- you know, do you sort of share the view, the widely-held view that the biggest threat to free speech in the United States is the government, is you, right? And that's historically, the kind of small-l liberal approach, and the First Amendment is direct -- you know, is aimed at stopping the government from censoring people. And he did not agree. He said the biggest threat to free speech was the social media platforms.
And I think it's kind of impossible to underestimate -- to overestimate how much people in the Trump administration were shaped by what they saw censorship by social platforms, in the late teens and early 2020s, and now -- so much of what they're doing is in reaction to that experience, and it's really totally reversed the way the U.S. government has thought about speech and expression for a long time.
COLLINS: Well, it also comes after what we heard from the Trump administration saying about what the Biden administration did. They believed and accused them of engaging in government censorship.
SMITH (On Telephone): Yes, and that was by sort of pressuring and jawboning, in their view, the social media platforms.
And I think a lot of the Trump folks feel like that's what -- maybe that's what they're doing to TV here, what was -- what was done to them. And I'm not saying that I necessarily view it that way. But I think it's very hard to understand what they're doing without understanding that they see this as getting back at people who, in some way or other, restricted their speech. But that means a huge departure.
And the use of the FCC, which, by the way, it only regulates broadcast, the sort of weakest and dying form of media, which is sort of an odd thing, like the leverage is against these -- the sort of pre-internet times of media, but they're using it against these big corporations, very effectively.
COLLINS: Bill Carter, the President, in his post, at the end of it, was also saying, Hey, NBC, you should take note of what ABC did. How do you think NBC is seeing a comment like that tonight? CARTER: Well, I mean, how open is he? He's saying that, Now I want to get rid of these guys. I mean, he's basically saying, I'm going to turn my attention to NBC, and I'll get rid of the last two guys. And if you're NBC, you have to take it seriously. I mean, where's the leverage against NBC? That he'll try to find some.
Now, late-night is very important to NBC. It's been part of their history, a big part of their history. They started it with The Tonight Show. And they don't only have those two shows. They have Saturday Night Live as well. Saturday Night Live, which is very successful, financially, by the way, and late-night shows may not be anymore. So, they have an awful lot to lose, and I don't know if they will just cave like this. It'll say -- I don't know what leverage he'll bring to bear, but they have to think about it for sure.
COLLINS: Bill Carter. Ben Smith. Great to have both of your insights on this tonight.
Up next. We're going to speak to a prosecutor out of Utah, who just filed those seven state charges against Charlie Kirk's accused killer. The latest they're learning, ahead.
[21:45:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, we heard from the Vice President, JD Vance, defending the right for all Americans to speak their minds. That also came in comments, where he said that the assassination of Charlie Kirk was responsible and because of what he described as, quote, "Left-wing radicals."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JD VANCE (R), U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: Just because the leader of Turning Point USA was gunned down by an assassin. And I want to let you know that whether you're a Democrat or a Republican, whatever your belief is, I will fight for your right to speak your mind. We reject political violence, and we reject the crazy left-wing radicals that gunned down our friend, Charlie Kirk.
(CHEERING)
(APPLAUSE)
VANCE: Let's talk to one another, and not try to shoot each other down for disagreeing.
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: In the aftermath of Kirk's killing, President Trump has vowed to investigate left-leaning groups.
And that comes as we have heard from investigators when it comes to evidence, and what they have seen in the charging documents, in those state charges that were announced yesterday.
[21:50:00]
My source tonight is Jeff Gray. He is the Utah County Attorney who filed those seven state charges against Charlie Kirk's suspected killer.
And it's great to have you here, sir, because I know it's been a busy very -- a very busy few days for you.
And so, Mr. Gray, the last that we had heard, was that the suspect here was not cooperating. Is that still the case, as of tonight?
JEFFREY S. GRAY, UTAH COUNTY ATTORNEY, FILED CHARGES AGAINST CHARLIE KIRK MURDER SUSPECT: That's not something I'm willing to comment on.
COLLINS: OK.
S. GRAY: The defendant, whether he's--
COLLINS: So you don't want--
S. GRAY: --cooperating or not is not a relevant matter, at this point.
COLLINS: OK. We had heard that he was initially, and then once he got an attorney, he had not been.
In the charging document that came out, that obviously had a lot of details yesterday, it said that Tyler Robinson intentionally targeted Charlie Kirk because of his belief or perception regarding Charlie Kirk's political expression.
As you get closer to a trial here, should we expect for investigators to reveal more of the details when it comes to a motive here?
S. GRAY: Well, that will all come at a jury trial. A jury, ultimately, is the one that -- the trier of fact. And what is public is what is in the probable cause statement, and we're not going to comment beyond that.
Of course, there'll be more evidence at jury trial. The information and the probable cause statement that we released demonstrates that there's enough evidence to move forward to trial. And ultimately, within the next few months, we'll have a preliminary hearing, where that evidence will actually be in court, and the court will review that to assure that there's enough evidence to proceed forward.
COLLINS: Last night, we had the Deputy Attorney General of the United States, Todd Blanche on. He said that if he believes it's appropriate to bring federal charges that they will. Are you operating, sir, under the assumption that there will be federal charges filed here?
S. GRAY: You know what? What the -- what the federal government does is, quite frankly, not -- it's not within my purview. So, I don't know what they'll do. They'll do what they feel is appropriate. My concern are the charges that we filed. COLLINS: And obviously, yesterday, it was announced that the State of Utah will seek the death penalty here.
There was another high-profile murder case that happened in Idaho recently. Obviously, the nation paid attention to that. In that case, the prosecutors accepted a guilty plea in exchange for a life sentence. No death penalty there.
Is there any chance that you would agree to that here, in this case?
S. GRAY: I'm not really willing to comment on ultimate outcomes. I mean, we're still very early in the process. It's not the time. This time is the time to prepare for a preliminary -- a preliminary hearing. And, at that point, we'll move forward with the case.
COLLINS: So, should we consider that to still be on the table tonight, sir?
S. GRAY: Well, we are seeking the death penalty. Ultimately, that will be for a jury to decide. If convicted, the jury will determine. There's three possible penalties under aggravated murder, which we charge, which is 25 years to life, life in prison without parole, or the death penalty. And it will be for the jury to decide which is the appropriate penalty.
COLLINS: And we will see, of course, what the jury does decide here, as this moves forward.
Utah County Attorney, Jeff Gray, thank you so much for your time tonight.
Up next. When it comes to politics versus public health, it was all on display today, on Capitol Hill, as the fired Director of the CDC, she was only on the job for about a month, testifies before lawmakers today, in response to what RFK Jr. said about why she was removed from that job.
[21:55:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: In a highly-anticipated hearing, on Capitol Hill today, the CDC Director, who was ousted by President Trump and RFK Jr., after just one month on the job, testified that the Health Secretary, she says, is putting lives at risk.
This is what Susan Monarez told the Senate, during her three-hour hearing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SUSAN MONAREZ, FORMER CDC DIRECTOR: I was fired for holding the line on scientific integrity.
I had refused to commit to approving vaccine recommendations without evidence, fire career officials without cause or resign, and I had shared my concerns with this committee.
My worst fear was that I would then be in a position of approving something that would reduce access of life-saving vaccines to children and others who need them.
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR., HHS SECRETARY: Hi, I'm Robert F. Kennedy Jr.--
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Secretary Kennedy had praised Monarez as having unimpeachable credentials, less than two months ago, in the image that you see here.
Today, she testified that she was essentially asked to pre-approve recommendations from a vaccine advisory committee that wasn't fully assembled yet.
She also refuted the Secretary's version of why she was fired.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KENNEDY JR.: I told her that she had to resign because I asked her, Are you a trustworthy person? And she said, No.
[22:00:00]
MONAREZ: He told me he could not trust me. He told me he could not trust me, because I had shared information related to our conversation beyond his staff. I told him, If you cannot trust me, then you can fire me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Monarez shared those concerns with the committee today, the very members that she testified in front of. That includes Senator Bill Cassidy, who ultimately was the deciding vote, for RFK Jr. in his role.
She also testified that there is no new data or evidence to suggest that anything should change, when it comes to kids, and when they should get their shots. That comes, as Secretary Kennedy's hand- selected vaccine advisory panel is going to meet tomorrow, and Friday. They could reshape the guidelines on how millions of children are protected from diseases. We'll be paying close attention to that. We'll bring you the headlines out of that meeting, tomorrow.
Thanks so much for joining us, tonight.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" begins now.
