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The Source with Kaitlan Collins

Trump Floats Pulling TV Licenses If Networks Are "Against" Him; Sen. Kaine Plans To Force Vote On Brazil & Canada Tariffs; Music Legends Unite For Farm Aid's 40th Year Celebration. Aired 9-10p ET

Aired September 18, 2025 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[21:00:00]

JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: --remember, California voters decide in November, whether they'll approve a new Democratic map. That would take five seats away, essentially offset Texas. So, as I note there, midterm averages, you lose about 20 seats. So this, the Republican powerplay may not be enough. But the President is determined, Anderson, to try.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: Yes. John King, thanks very much.

The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now. I'll see you, tomorrow.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: With Jimmy Kimmel off the air, President Trump and his FCC chair are warning tonight that others could soon follow.

I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.

Tonight, President Trump is not just taking a victory lap, after ABC pulled Jimmy Kimmel from the airwaves. He's also threatening consequences for any other network hosts that he deems is criticizing him too much on TV.

As he flew back to the United States, from his trip here in the United Kingdom, the President said this to reporters, on Air Force One, about why networks may have their licenses revoked.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: Mr. President, are you going to ask Brendan Carr to weigh in on other late night hosts that you have (inaudible) to be on the air?

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: A late night host is on network television. There is a licensing. I'll give you an example. I read someplace that the networks were 97 percent against me. I get 97 percent negative. And yet, I won it -- easily. I won all seven swing states, popular... I won everything. And if they're 97 percent against, they give me only bad publicity or press.

I mean, they're getting a license, I would think maybe their license should be taken away. It'll be up to Brendan Carr. I think Brendan Carr is outstanding. He's a patriot. He loves our country, and he's a tough guy. So we'll have to see.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Trump there, leaving it to his hand-selected FCC chair to possibly make the next move here.

And to give you a sense of the weight of his words, just yesterday, Brendan Carr said that Jimmy Kimmel should be suspended, and that ABC could handle this either quote, The easy way or the hard way. It was hours later that Kimmel's show was put on pause.

Since then, Brendan Carr has made multiple media appearances, defending what he calls a media shakeup, while also warning there's more to come.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRENDAN CARR, FCC CHAIRMAN: Well, look, I can tell you, Jimmy Kimmel is no Johnny Carson. And the issue that rose here, where lots and lots of people were upset, was not a joke. It was not making fun or pillaring me, or the administration, or the President. It was appearing to directly mislead the American public about a significant fact of probably one of the most significant political events we've had in a long time.

We're going back to that era when local TV stations, judging the public interest, get to decide what the American people think. And again, we're constraining the power through those actions of Disney, of Comcast. I think the American public are going to be much better off. But yes, I don't think this is the last shoe to drop. This is a massive shift that's taking place in the media ecosystem, and I think the consequences are going to continue to flow.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Now, what those consequences could be, could very well depend on the President or, I guess, how much the host criticizes him.

We have yet to hear from Jimmy Kimmel directly, since his show was pulled last night, just 24 hours ago, as he was preparing to go on air.

Since the late night show's taped before the news broke yesterday, tonight is going to be the first time that we've seen late-night TV have a chance to respond. That includes something you do not typically see, on a Thursday night. Jon Stewart, who normally only hosts "The Daily Show," on Monday night, is going to make a special appearance in a couple of hours.

CNBC just reported on what their -- on what viewers tonight are also going to be hearing from Stephen Colbert, who told his late-show audience at its taping this afternoon, quote, "This is blatant censorship." "With an autocrat, you cannot give an inch."

And moments ago, Stephen Colbert's show shared more of what he has to say tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEPHEN COLBERT, HOST, "THE LATE SHOW WITH STEPHEN COLBERT": Now this, this, all -- this may seem bad, but Carr was quick to reassure everyone posting, While this may be an unprecedented decision, it is important for broadcasters to push back on Disney programming that they determine falls short of community values.

Well, you know what my community values are, buster? Freedom of speech.

(CHEERING)

(APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Colbert's full comments will air, later tonight.

And also tonight, we're hearing from one of late night's icons, David Letterman, who had this to say about what happened to Jimmy Kimmel.

[21:05:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID LETTERMAN, AMERICAN TELEVISION HOST AND COMEDIAN: It's no good. It's silly. It's ridiculous. And you can't go around firing somebody, because you're fearful or trying to suck up to an authoritarian criminal administration in the Oval Office. That's just not how this works.

(CHEERING)

(APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: All of this is coming in, we'll wait to see what all the other hosts have to say, as we're getting new reporting here on what was happening behind-the-scenes at ABC, in the moments before they were pulling Jimmy Kimmel's show off air.

As we're seeing the late-night host for the first time since this happened, in new pictures from Los Angeles tonight. You can see here, Jimmy Kimmel seen driving his car, around L.A., as we wait to see what he is going to say about this next.

We're also joined live from Los Angeles, tonight, by CNN's Correspondent, Elizabeth Wagmeister.

And Elizabeth, you've been doing a ton of great behind-the-scenes reporting, on what Jimmy Kimmel was actually planning to say in a monolog, last night. ELIZABETH WAGMEISTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Kaitlan, so I hear from sources that Kimmel was prepared and ready to go on his show, last night, on Wednesday, and that he had a monolog that was addressing all of the backlash from the right, to his comments about the Charlie Kirk murder that he made on his show, both on Monday and Tuesday. A source described that monolog to me as very hot.

And that is when the decision came down to Bob Iger and Dana Walden, I am told, and that they made the decision to indefinitely pull his show off the air. I am told that Dana Walden, who has a very close relationship with Jimmy, she is the one who called him, and they had a conversation.

I am told that Disney has expressed that they would like to move forward with Jimmy Kimmel. But what I have been told is that the temperature needs to be taken down. And why? Because this threat from the FCC is very serious. There have been station groups that have pulled the show off the air before ABC did.

So, I was told that that, of course, was a huge factor into their decision, because they are concerned that if Jimmy did end up taking the stage and doing his monolog, that it can lead to even further repercussions, Kaitlan.

COLLINS: Well, and one thing that struck me about your reporting is, you were hearing and saying that there's actually a chance Jimmy Kimmel could return to air.

WAGMEISTER: Look, that is what I'm hearing, which is that ABC and Disney are very hopeful. The word that keeps coming back to me, from my reporting and my source calls, is that Disney is hopeful that he can return.

ABC loves Jimmy. They have a very longstanding relationship with him. He's been there for more than two decades. He doesn't just host his show. He's hosted the Oscars. He just won an Emmy for hosting Who Wants to Be a Millionaire? That Emmy came a few days ago.

But let's say it how it is. It seems pretty bleak. It's pretty hard to imagine Jimmy Kimmel actually returning. Make no mistake, Jimmy Kimmel hates President Trump's guts. He has been talking about that, on his show, for years. Do we really think that he is going to come back and water down the commentary in this climate? Probably not. That does not seem feasible. So, many people that I have been talking to, in the industry, say they see no way that he can come back, even though I am hearing that Disney is hopeful.

And final point, Kaitlan. Jimmy Kimmel's contract is up very soon. It's up at the end of this season, which would take him--

COLLINS: Yes.

WAGMEISTER: --through May 2026. Kimmel has been wrestling for years whether to leave his show. The past two contract negotiations, he has said publicly in the press that he may leave. So, this may just be the time for him to walk away, given everything that has happened. COLLINS: Yes, and just on this idea of him coming back on the air. I mean, when I was listening to President Trump, here today, at his press conference, talking about Jimmy Kimmel, I mean, the idea that he would be back on the air? That is not something that's registered in the President's mind.

He seems to think this is done and decided, and that Jimmy Kimmel was fired because of his ratings. He didn't mention his FCC chair until later, when he was on Air Force One, in those comments that we just played for everybody.

Elizabeth Wagmeister, if you hear more or anything else from ABC or Jimmy Kimmel, please let us know.

Also joining tonight are:

Brian Stelter, CNN's Chief Media Analyst.

And Tom Dupree, who's the former Deputy Assistant Attorney General.

And so, it's great to have both of your expertise here.

Because Brian, on this front of Jimmy Kimmel's show returning to air, where this stands tonight? What's the latest, in your sense, of where we are now, 24 hours into this story?

BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA ANALYST: Look, in television, hosts and producers love a plot twist. It would be one hell of a plot twist to have Kimmel return. But I think it is an exceptionally unlikely scenario.

I do think what's weighing on Kimmel's mind, among other factors, is his staff. He is married to his executive producer of the show. Many of his other staff members are like family. He has many people that are depending on him, and there may be a part of him that wants the show to be back on ABC's airwaves for that reason.

[21:10:00]

But I've got to imagine, he has some very serious grievances against ABC, at this point. He had, as Elizabeth said, had an intention to go back on the air and talk about this controversy, and he had no intention of apologizing.

But that's what one of the big station owner groups now wants. Sinclair is demanding that Kimmel apologize. They've suggested he make a donation to TP USA. There are demands out there and ideas out there that Kimmel, I don't think would -- would go along with.

Look, take it from me, Kaitlan, I've been canceled before on television. Sometimes being canceled is the best thing that could ever happen to a TV host. I think Kimmel might be looking around and realizing he has a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity here, a chance to reinvent himself.

But you also have to consider the political stakes and the political climate. What does it mean to have yet another program that the President dislikes, suddenly disappearing from the airwaves? We know Colbert's show is ending soon. Kimmel's show maybe already ended.

Piece by piece, bit by bit, we are seeing the erosion of dissent and criticism of this President, it's disappearing from the broadcast airwaves. And Kimmel may want to resist that from happening, right? He may not want to contribute to that happening.

COLLINS: Yes.

STELTER: So, I think those are some of the many factors at play here.

COLLINS: Yes, and it was -- it was striking to me. Obviously, there's always so much to ask a U.S. President, especially at a press conference with another world leader. But no U.S. reporters asked the President today about this major headline coming out of the U.S.--

STELTER: Yes.

COLLINS: --about Jimmy Kimmel. It was a British reporter who actually asked him about Jimmy Kimmel, when we were in that press conference earlier.

And Tom, on what we heard from the President, on the way back, when he was speaking with reporters about it, on the plane, he very clearly said that he was basically suggesting, while ultimately leaving it up to Brendan Carr, that network licenses could be revoked if the late- night hosts, if these hosts are basically talking mostly negatively about him.

I think a question some people have is, is that legal?

TOM DUPREE, FORMER DEPUTY ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL: In a word, no.

Look, the First Amendment is pretty clear. It prohibits the government from punishing or suppressing free speech. And to revoke a broadcast license, because the government disagrees or dislikes with the content of the speech would be a pretty clear First Amendment violation.

Look, the First Amendment says that we, as Americans, have the right to criticize our government. We have the right to criticize public officials. And so, although ABC has certain rights towards Kimmel as an employee, they don't have any constitutional obligation to allow him to continue hosting the show.

The First Amendment does restrict what the government can do. And in this case, I think the First Amendment would pretty clearly restrict the administration from revoking broadcast license, because they disagree with the content of political speech that they're hearing on that network.

COLLINS: But Tom, to get to that point, the network would have to actually put up a fight over their license, would they not? I mean, that's the question here is what that would look like.

And The New York Times has this great story in its home page today, basically saying that ABC, you know, as Brendan Carr was saying, You can do this the hard way or the easy way. It seems that they chose the easy way tonight.

DUPREE: Well, look, that's the thing, is that these great First Amendment questions don't actually get resolved, if the speakers don't continue speaking, and the networks don't continue putting that speech out there.

In other words, if the response to a government threat like this is simply to stop speaking? Well then the courts never get a swing at it. This issue never gets decided. It never gets litigated. And to your point, I think the way this ultimately would get resolved is if the speech continues, the government takes the action, and then the courts will step in.

COLLINS: Yes, we'll see what happens here.

Tom Dupree. Brian Stelter. Great to have both of you back on this breaking story tonight.

Also here this evening is Meredith Stiehm, who is the President of the Writers Guild of America West, which is a labor union, representing thousands of writers in TV and film, especially when it comes to Jimmy Kimmel's show, which has been a big part of this.

And so, it's great to have you here, tonight.

Meredith, what was your reaction, when you heard that Jimmy Kimmel's -- that Jimmy Kimmel himself, was being taken off the air?

MEREDITH STIEHM, PRESIDENT, WRITERS GUILD OF AMERICA WEST: This was like a siren sounding in Hollywood, last night. It was about 5 o'clock, and we were in a member meeting of writers, and the agenda got hijacked by this topic. People were furious, concerned, wanted (ph) to do something. And we put a statement out. We had a rally this morning. There was a rally, this afternoon.

Look, it's outrageous. It's clearly a First Amendment violation. It's, you know, in this, in a -- in a democracy, we have a right to disagree, out loud, with people in power and not be punished for it. And that's exactly what just happened to Jimmy Kimmel. And really, the vibe is like writers have had it. At this rally today, people were angry.

[21:15:00]

COLLINS: Yes, and one question that Brian Stelter raised there was Jimmy Kimmel's wife is his executive producer. Obviously, there are a lot of people who depend on that show. It's an entire staff, a band there as well. Do we know what happens to his staff and his show?

STIEHM: Well, right now they're unemployed. And yes, that's not just a problem for his writers, but for his entire crew. So, that's -- you know, this is evolving very quickly. It's been less than 24 hours. But we represent their writers, and we represent the other writers that have been publicly threatened by Brendan Carr, and by Donald Trump. We'll have you -- You're going to be next, if you don't stop satirizing me or criticizing me. It's absolutely undemocratic. And it can't -- you know, it can't stand.

COLLINS: Can you -- can you say, if you've heard from any of the writers, from his team? Obviously, you don't have to name them. But, I mean, I'm assuming they're freaking out over this?

STIEHM: Yes, I think they're probably weighing their options, and figuring out what to do. But I think, you know, the good -- outcome here is that ABC and Disney fixes this. They have the power to say and say, With all due (ph) respect, and say, Look, we went too far, we crossed a line, and we're not going to help this administration punish people for free expression, and put the show back on the air, and go back on, reverse what they've done.

COLLINS: Yes, is there a sense of concern that this could happen in other places? I mean, the President made quite clear, between Seth Meyers and Jimmy Fallon, that he's also looking at NBC here as well.

STIEHM: Yes, he's threatening people, and people that are in power. And frankly, in this case, that's Bob Iger and Dana Walden. They have the power to say no, to push back and say, We're not going to help you punish people for -- if they want to criticize you or satirize you. That is their constitutional right. We live in a democracy.

And I think we all know about the bully in the schoolyard. It doesn't help to appease that bully. You have to push back, and you have to say no. And that's what Bob Iger and Dana Walden can do right now.

COLLINS: Meredith Stiehm, we'll see what Disney and ABC decide here, next.

Up next for us. You have seen a lot of Brendan Carr, the FCC chair, over the last 24 hours. But what about his background? What we know about him? He's been a regular at Mar-a-Lago. He helped write part of Project 2025. What exactly we know about the FCC chair, who apparently is wielding quite a lot of power.

[21:20:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: The top Democrat in the House, Minority Leader, Hakeem Jeffries, is now calling on Brendan Carr to resign tonight, accusing the FCC chair of, quote, Bullying ABC into pulling Jimmy Kimmel off the airwaves.

Now, Carr may not have been a household name before now, but he has certainly been in the spotlight ever since ABC's stunning decision, 24 hours ago. He's been the chair of what is basically the nation's top watchdog for the broadcast industry, since President Trump was reelected.

He's a long time FCC staffer, dating back to 2012, and was later appointed as a Commissioner by President Trump in 2017. In 2022, when President Biden was in office, Carr actually said this, the political satire is, quote, "One of the oldest and most important forms of free speech." He added, "That's why people in influential positions have always targeted it for censorship."

In 2023, then-President Biden reappointed Carr for a second five-year term. And again, he cleared the Senate with no significant hurdles standing in his way.

But he quickly gained attraction inside the MAGA world, after he authored a chapter on the FCC, in Project 2025, railing against right- wing censorship, what he said it was, by media companies, while pledging to rein in Big Tech in what he described as attempts to drive diverse political viewpoints from the digital town square.

Now, while some people might have tried to distance themselves from Project 2025, and it was a sensitive point during the campaign, Carr certainly has not, he has not been shying away from it.

And just yesterday, when one person posted, This was all in Project 2025, after the Kimmel decision came out, Carr replied, using this Jack Nicholson meme, emphatically nodding his head, Yes.

In the lead up to the 2024 election, Brendan Carr accused the Biden White House of infringing on free speech in his address to CPAC, that annual gathering of conservative activists and leaders.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARR: Listen, Americans have been living through an unprecedented surge in censorship. The administrative state, and the government, the Biden administration has been colluding to shut down free speech, open dialog, diversity of opinions, you've seen in your own life.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Just days after winning the election, the President tapped Carr to become the new FCC chair, and calls for -- and Carr called for the FCC to dismantle the censorship cartel and restore free speech rights for everyday Americans. He then quickly was seen as a regular at the President's Mar-a-Lago Club. He showcased his support by wearing a gold lapel pin of the President's face.

Joining me now Bob Corn-Revere, the former Chief Counsel at the FCC, who is now Chief Counsel for the Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression. An organization that advocates for free speech, so you are the perfect guest to be joining us, this evening.

Just based on what you have seen, from Brendan Carr, in the last couple of weeks, is this how an FCC chair should be acting, in your view?

[21:25:00]

ROBERT CORN-REVERE, FORMER CHIEF COUNSEL, FCC: No, nothing about this is normal. The FCC chairman, commissioners take an oath of office to uphold the law and the Constitution of the United States. And that doesn't include bullying media companies. It means that you're supposed to show restraint and not take steps to engage in censorship.

COLLINS: And when you heard him warning ABC, yesterday, We can do this the hard way or the easy way. I wonder what that said to you?

CORN-REVERE: Well, it said that this Chairman is acting more like a mafia boss than an FCC chairman.

It was a rather naked threat that if ABC didn't do something about its on-air personalities, that it was going to suffer adverse consequences at the hands of the FCC. It is a classic example of what is called jawboning, where you have government officials making threats, based on either the perceived use of power or the actual use of power. And this is Exhibit A for that kind of violation of both the Communications Act and the First Amendment.

COLLINS: So, he keeps saying that ABC and other broadcast networks are bound by their FCC licenses to serve the public interest. That's been the argument that he's been making in response to this, and argued that he is just holding them accountable to that.

Is that how it is portrayed, if you are looking at this from a completely unbiased perspective?

CORN-REVERE: I'm afraid, that's just simplistic nonsense to say that the public interest mandate of the Communications Act authorizes this kind of behavior. It does not.

To begin with, the Communications Act has Section 326, which prohibits the FCC from engaging in censorship or imposing conditions on broadcast licensees.

And in the second place, even to the extent the FCC can regulate in the public interest, the Supreme Court has held for decades that that has to be interpreted with the First Amendment in mind.

And if that weren't enough, just last year, the Supreme Court reaffirmed, unanimously, that it violates the First Amendment, for a government official to threaten adverse regulatory action, if someone doesn't change their speech.

So on every level, this kind of behavior is a violation of norms for the FCC, and it's a violation of the law.

COLLINS: Well, the one thing that stood out to me, from the President today, is when he was saying, they're wholly criticizing him, 97 percent criticizing him, and he's saying that if they criticize him, they should lose their licenses.

The question is, who gets to decide what is too much criticism?

CORN-REVERE: Not the President. That's exactly why we have a First Amendment, so that the government doesn't get to be the arbiter of truth, it doesn't get to shield itself from criticism. That is why the Framers of the Constitution wanted to separate power and to prevent the government, from having authority, over what our newspapers and, later, broadcast stations could say.

COLLINS: Bob Corn-Revere, great to have your expertise on this. Thanks so much for joining us, tonight.

And also, this evening, as we are seeing reaction just pouring in from so many people, in response to this who want to weigh in. Fareed Zakaria sat down with Hillary Clinton and asked what she thought about Kimmel being pulled off the air.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HILLARY CLINTON, LAWYER AND FORMER UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF STATE: It is a direct government action to try to intimidate employers, organizations, corporations, much of which we've already seen, to remove an opponent, even though it's a comic.

It's, you know -- look, I had no idea when I was in public life, and listening to the jokes that were made about me, and the attacks that were coming from people, like Jimmy Kimmel and others, that I could have called up the head of the FCC and said, Take them off the air, I don't like what they're saying.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Hillary Clinton's former running mate, Senator Tim Kaine, will join me, right after this.

[21:30:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: As he flew back to the U.S., this evening, President Trump explicitly said that federal regulators should consider revoking the licenses of broadcast stations that talk about him negatively, as he insulted Jimmy Kimmel.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: He's a whack job, but he had no talent, and more importantly, the talent he had though because a lot of people have no talent to get ratings, but he had no ratings. His ratings were worse than Colbert, I think. They got rid of Colbert, which is a good thing to do.

And look, that's something that should be talked about for licensing, too. When you have a network and you have evening shows and all they do is hit Trump. That's all they do. If you go back, I guess they haven't had a conservative one in years, or something, somebody said, but when you go back and take a look, all they do is hit Trump. They're licensed. They're not allowed to do that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[21:35:00] COLLINS: But compare that to the comment, that comment there, to the promises that we heard from the President, and his own senior aides, about protecting free speech upon their return to office.

Not only did the President sign an executive order, pledging to do so the day he retook office. We also heard from the Vice President, JD Vance, rebuking European leaders, on this very issue, in Munich, as he made this promise.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JD VANCE (R), U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: In Washington, there is a new sheriff in town. And under Donald Trump's leadership, we may disagree with your views, but we will fight to defend your right to offer it in the public square, agree or disagree.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: My congressional source here tonight is the Democrat from Virginia, Senator Tim Kaine.

And Senator, when the President says he wants to revoke broadcasters' licenses for criticizing him too much. You, as a member of Congress with oversight, say what?

SEN. TIM KAINE (D-VA): Here's what we say, Kaitlan, that President Trump wants to cancel Jimmy Kimmel, cancel Stephen Colbert. He doesn't like Mitch McConnell. He doesn't like Mike Pence.

But on Vladimir Putin. Wow. After 10 years, I'm starting to get a little disappointed in him. Thanks, comrade.

This is a guy who is so clueless, so clueless about the First Amendment, so clueless about who our real adversaries are. It's embarrassing.

COLLINS: But do you think he's clueless, or do you think he is wielding the FCC in a way that -- I mean, so far, ABC has not resisted this pressure. Instead, it seems like they succumbed to it, yesterday.

KAINE: I don't know if Trump is wielding, but I know ABC is folding. And watching Corporate America just cave with no backbone, to protect their profit margin, makes me sick to my stomach.

But if big business and Corporate America caves, everyday Americans have to stand up. And we're standing up. We've got elections in Virginia in about six weeks, and I think we're going to stand up and deliver a big rebuke to Donald Trump and Trumpism, in the state whose motto is, We don't like tyrants.

COLLINS: One point of criticism that I've seen today, in response to the overwhelming backlash for what happened with Jimmy Kimmel was, people pointing to what happened in the wake of January 6, where some of your colleagues in the House and in the Senate, Democrats, were calling on cable providers to drop Fox News and to drop One America News, because of what happened with January 6, and the coverage of the election, and the election lies that they spread.

Do you believe that the way they handled that then was the wrong way to handle it?

KAINE: Kaitlan, when you say some Democrats called? I mean, we're a nation of 330 million people. I have no idea who you're talking about. I don't know anybody in the Senate who was calling on folks to drop First Amendment protections.

Look, it's a -- why should Donald Trump and Republicans be such snowflakes? They are so afraid of criticism? They want to cancel people who criticize him. Grow up and have a backbone and just have a thick skin. Instead, Donald Trump is like, If you criticize me, I want to cancel you.

It ain't going to happen, because Americans, just like we did in 1776, we don't accept monarchy, we don't accept tyranny, and we'll push back against it.

COLLINS: Yes, and as this happens, I mean, the point that the President -- and this -- we did hear that from Democrats, certainly in the House. But on this front, to your point, obviously, there's a lot of members of -- a lot of Democrats in Washington.

But what the President was saying today. This is a conversation that we've been talking about for several days now, after what we heard from the Attorney General, Pam Bondi, on free speech in the wake of Charlie Kirk's assassination, something she faced a ton of criticism for, not just from just free speech advocates, but from a lot of conservatives who said that what she was saying was exactly against what they believe.

I want you to listen though to what Minnesota Governor, Tim Walz, had to say, in 2022, on the same issue.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. TIM WALZ (D-MN): I think we need to push back on this. There's no guarantee to free speech on misinformation or hate speech, and especially around our democracy. Tell the truth.

PAM BONDI, ATTORNEY GENERAL: There's free speech, and then there's hate speech. And there is no place, especially now, especially after what happened to Charlie.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: How is what the Attorney General said there different than what we heard from Governor Walz?

KAINE: So, I never heard that quote before. But let me tell you, I'm a Virginian. Virginia framers helped write the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. We believe in free speech. It's got to be robust. You have to accept views you don't like, from both sides.

[21:40:00]

And Donald Trump's decision that he wants to go after people critical of him. Look, I lived in a military dictatorship in Honduras, when I was working with Jesuit missionaries there in 1980 and '81. I don't want the U.S. to fall back into the authoritarian, dictatorial thing where you -- where you suppress speech you don't like, and elevate speech you do like. We need to tolerate free speech.

I thought -- I thought Charlie Kirk was a free speech guy. I never met him. I don't think I would have recognized him on the street before the horrible, horrible and tragic assassination, last week. But I thought he was a free speech guy. But the Republicans seem to be taking his tragic death, and deciding that they want to censor speech, thought, opinion, in violation of the First Amendment of people they don't like, and that ain't American.

COLLINS: And they had faced criticism on that, from people like Tucker Carlson, who are firmly in their movement. Obviously, we'll see what happens with this, and what Brendan Carr has the ability to do.

I also want to ask you, because on Capitol Hill, you and Republican Senator Rand Paul, are in the middle of planning to force two more Senate votes, when it comes to the tariffs that the President has imposed, not just on Canada, but also on Brazil.

Obviously, we saw what happened in April. It didn't go anywhere in the House. Do you believe that this next resolution is going to be more successful? Or are you worried it's going to have the same fate?

KAINE: Kaitlan, in the Senate, we passed it in April, before the tariffs went into effect. We had every Democrat and four Republicans before it hit Americans' pocketbooks. Now, Americans are paying more for food, clothes, building supplies, electric equipment. Their back- to-school shopping costs more. Their Thanksgiving shopping, even more. Their holiday shopping, even more.

And I'm saying to my Republican colleagues, in the Senate, OK, you were willing to go along with Trump back then. Now you're seeing your own constituents complain about higher prices, your businesses complain about higher input costs, and they can't find export markets. Are you going to follow Donald Trump like lemmings? Or are you going to listen to your constituents? I think we'll get more votes.

COLLINS: All right, we'll be counting them.

Senator Tim Kaine, appreciate your time, as always, when you join us here on THE SOURCE.

And up next here for us. An interview you do not want to miss. It is with the legend, Willie Nelson. It comes ahead of his historic performance, this weekend, at the 40th annual Farm Aid festival. And why Willie Nelson thinks Farm Aid is still necessary, even today.

[21:45:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) COLLINS: One of the biggest music nights of the year is airing, right here on CNN, this Saturday, with Farm Aid kicking off its 40th anniversary festival with a series of iconic names. We're going to be taking the stage on Saturday night. That includes Bob Dylan, Neil Young, Dave Matthews, Tim Reynolds, and, of course, the King of Outlaw Country himself, Willie Nelson.

Nelson, of course, first organized the Farm Aid concert, back in 1985, when his hair was much shorter than his iconic braids that he has now. The annual festival, though, has raised more than $85 million to help family farms ever since.

And I had the chance to sit down with Willie Nelson, on his legendary tour bus, earlier this week.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COLLINS: We're here in Columbia, Maryland. You're performing here tonight. But you've got a really big show coming up on Saturday--

WILLIE NELSON, AMERICAN SINGER AND GUITARIST: Right.

COLLINS: --in Minneapolis.

NELSON: Yes, Farm Aid.

COLLINS: Farm Aid.

NELSON: Yes.

COLLINS: Not just Farm Aid in a year, but it's the 40th anniversary.

NELSON: Yes.

COLLINS: What inspired you to do it, 40 years ago?

NELSON: Well, I was a farmer, and I knew what they were going through. I still know what they're going through. They need all the help they can get. Small family farmers, and now, pretty much all farmers need help. But I started out working for the small family farmers because I could relate to.

COLLINS: And did you think then, when you were -- you were performing and having that concert, in 1985, that you'd be having it still, to benefit farmers, 40 years later?

NELSON: No, I believed in it so much that I thought we would knock it out in a little while, you know? But obviously, there's a few things in the way.

COLLINS: Like what?

NELSON: Big government trying to tell you what to do, and what you can't do, and what you can grow and can't grow. And they tell a farmer, You can have the money to grow next year's crops, but you got to put this much fertilizer on it. And if they don't want to do that, then they don't get the help. So, I think there's a lot of -- too much control.

COLLINS: You wrote a really nice letter to young farmers, earlier this year. I was reading it. And you said, how, Even with the wave of uncertainty farmers are facing right now, the work you're doing has never been more critical--

NELSON: Yes.

COLLINS: --for our country.

NELSON: Yes, that's true. That's true. We need the farmers to be strong and stand up for themselves and others, and we will stand up with them.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NELSON: Thank y'all very much. And welcome to Farm Aid, the concert for America.

(CHEERING)

(APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: That first concert in 1985 is at Memorial Stadium in Illinois.

NELSON: Yes.

COLLINS: It was you, Bob Dylan, Billy Joel, B.B. King. What was it like on that stage, that night?

NELSON: Well, any night on the stage with those guys is great. I was glad to see all the people join us, and coming together, and making it happen.

COLLINS: When you called people to come and help you, do something called Farm Aid, what did -- what did Billy Joel, what did everyone, say?

[21:50:00]

NELSON: Oh, they all said, Yes, what can we do? You know, they realized the importance, and most everybody I know is all for it.

COLLINS: Do you think people in Washington understand what farmers deal with on a daily basis?

NELSON: One or two might.

(LAUGHTER)

COLLINS: Out of all of them?

NELSON: Yes. Yes. COLLINS: I mean, if you had to kind of explain to somebody in Washington, who's maybe never been on a farm, what it's like, what would you tell them?

NELSON: Well, I would tell them to pick cotton for a few days, and then call me, tell me what they think about farming. Bail somebody. Do something farm work, so you'll know what you're talking about, and then let's talk.

COLLINS: I'm guessing you probably don't think what they do is that hard, in Congress?

NELSON: No, they're always none (ph). If you -- if you vote the way you believe? That's easy.

COLLINS: I know you've got an album coming out. It's tribute to your late friend, Merle Haggard.

NELSON: Yes.

COLLINS: What was the process like, of doing those songs?

NELSON: Well, I loved all the songs, so it was easy for me. And of course, all the band and musicians there in Nashville, they knew the songs too. They got some great tracks, and it was easy to do.

COLLINS: It's been almost 10 years since he died. You miss him?

NELSON: Oh yes, all the time. And him and Waylon and John and Kris, all of them, good friends of mine.

COLLINS: In 2013, you actually came to Tuscaloosa with Merle Haggard.

NELSON: Oh, yes.

COLLINS: And I was an intern at the newspaper there, and I covered y'all's concert.

NELSON: Yes.

COLLINS: I was looking at the story, and I wrote that y'all were the cornbread and gravy of country music.

(LAUGHTER)

COLLINS: And I said, your virtually sold-out show proved that Tuscaloosa was hungry for a home-cooked meal.

NELSON: That's great. That's good. Yes.

COLLINS: I mean, I remember seeing the audience that night, and they were just, you know? You could see how much they loved, seeing y'all perform together.

NELSON: Yes. Yes, they love them. They love -- there's a big energy exchange that happens out there when -- whether it's me or whoever, people come out to hear somebody, clap their hands, sing along for a couple of hours, and go home feeling a lot better.

COLLINS: You famously switched from alcohol to weed long before anyone else did.

NELSON: Yes.

COLLINS: I think everybody's caught up with you.

NELSON: Yes, good, yes.

COLLINS: And now, you've got Willie's Remedy.

NELSON: Yes.

COLLINS: And so, you drink it now.

NELSON: I drink it, yes. Drink a little weed every now and then.

COLLINS: I cover the White House.

NELSON: Yes.

COLLINS: And I was reading about how in 1979, you went to the White House.

NELSON: Yes.

COLLINS: You know what I'm about to tell?

NELSON: Yes, and smoked joint on the roof of the White House. Me and Chip's -- Carter.

COLLINS: Chip, President Carter's son.

NELSON: Yes, yes, we got a bong.

COLLINS: Whose idea was it to go to the roof?

NELSON: I think it was his. I'm going to blame him for it anyway. Of course, it had to be a lot of his, because he was the only one who knew how to get up there.

COLLINS: Whose idea was it to smoke?

NELSON: Oh, both of us, yes.

COLLINS: But you took a joint to the White House?

NELSON: Oh, yes.

(LAUGHTER)

COLLINS: That's kind of iconic. You know that, right?

NELSON: Or something,

(LAUGHTER)

COLLINS: Maybe illegal back then.

NELSON: It is, yes.

COLLINS: Not so iconic (ph).

NELSON: Oh, it'd be very illegal, yes.

COLLINS: Why do you think music brings people together?

NELSON: I think everyone can relate to music, in one way or another. You have someone that you like, from Beethoven to Hank Williams, you know, there's somebody in there, that you'd go see and enjoy. So, music is a great communicator.

COLLINS: You appeared on the Beyonce album.

NELSON: Yes, yes.

COLLINS: I think a lot of her fans were listening to you as the radio DJ, and probably never heard something like that before.

NELSON: Yes.

(LAUGHTER)

NELSON: She's great.

COLLINS: Yes. What was that like?

NELSON: Oh, it's fun, and I enjoyed it. She was a great gal.

COLLINS: What advice would you give a young person who's struggling to break into the music scene?

NELSON: Don't take no for an answer. Don't give up. Keep going. Winner never quits. Quitter never wins.

COLLINS: You don't seem like someone who takes no for an answer.

NELSON: Yes.

COLLINS: I mean, retirement doesn't even seem to be in your vocabulary,

NELSON: Not really, no. And I wouldn't know what to do, you know? I love music, and it's really not work for me. It's -- traveling is work, you know? But out there, playing for an hour is -- makes it all worthwhile.

COLLINS: People say that age is just a number.

NELSON: Yes.

COLLINS: You agree with that? NELSON: Oh, yes. Of course you should. 92 is a big number.

COLLINS: It's a good number.

NELSON: It's a good number, yes.

COLLINS: Mr. Nelson, thank you for letting us come on your bus, and thank you for letting us talk to you.

NELSON: My pleasure.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COLLINS: He referred to his tour bus as the rolling old-folks home. He is just as humorous as ever.

And you can see Willie Nelson, and all of us right here on CNN, for one of the biggest concert events of the year. Iconic musicians, with Willie Nelson, Bob Dylan, all raising awareness for American family farms. You can watch it all live, this Saturday here, 07:00 p.m. Eastern, on CNN. I can promise you, you don't want to miss it.

[21:55:00]

Up next here for us. We're going to check in after RFK Jr.'s hand- picked panel of CDC's advisers, they just voted to change when and how kids get a key vaccine. That new information, ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: The Health Secretary, Robert F. Kennedy Jr.'s hand-picked vaccine advisory board wants to make at least one change to win young children get certain vaccines.

Specifically, they voted today that the combined MMRV vaccine should no longer be recommended before a child is 4-years-old. Right now, that vaccine is for measles, mumps, rubella, and varicella, the virus that causes chicken pox. And under the new recommendations, chicken pox would be given separately as a vaccine to kids.

[22:00:00]

They normally -- a normally routine meeting came with unprecedented uncertainty, after Secretary Kennedy had abruptly removed all of these 17 members of that advisory board, and replaced them with 12 of his own selection. A vote on potential changes to the hepatitis B vaccine was postponed until tomorrow, when they are also going to talk about the COVID-19 vaccine as well.

The panel's recommendations aren't final. They still need sign-off from the CDC director. But there is no CDC director, no permanent one in place at least. And that means the final say could rest with Secretary Kennedy, or his deputy who is right now serving as the acting CDC director. We'll keep you updated on that.

Thanks so much for joining us tonight. "CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts right now.