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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Trump Pushes Unproven Autism Theories With No New Evidence; Jimmy Kimmel's Show Set To Return Tuesday; Trump's Former Personal Lawyer Takes Over As U.S. Attorney In VA. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired September 22, 2025 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
HARRY ENTEN, CNN CHIEF DATA ANALYST: Now, let me just point out one little last thing, which is the ratings for Jimmy Kimmel are obviously down, over the past few years, as obviously folks have been leaving their broadcast television aside.
I think the real question is, can all this controversy actually build up and get Kimmel to get, say, north of, say, 2.4 million, which was his average audience, back in 2015? I wouldn't be surprised by 3 million to 4 million. Hey, cancelation, or the threat of cancelation can be pretty good for business.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: I'm sure a lot of people will tune in to see.
ENTEN: Yes.
COOPER: He's on, tomorrow.
ENTEN: Yes.
COOPER: Harry Enten, thanks very much.
ENTEN: Thank you.
COOPER: That's it. The news continues. "THE SOURCE" starts now. I'll see you, tomorrow.
BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: President Donald Trump pushing an unproven link between Tylenol and autism, telling pregnant women that it would be his preference if they didn't take the drug at all.
I'm Boris Sanchez, in for Kaitlan Collins. This is THE SOURCE.
The President of the United States teased his announcement this way. Quote, I think we found an answer to autism. That was yesterday.
Instead, what he and his Health Secretary delivered at the White House today was to promote unproven lies, unproven ties, I should say, between Tylenol, vaccines and autism, without offering new evidence.
The President telling pregnant women he believes they shouldn't take Tylenol during pregnancy at all, despite not offering any new justification. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I'm making these statements from me. I'm not making them from these doctors, because when they -- they talk about, you know, different results, different studies, I talk about a lot of commonsense.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Parents, or parents-to-be, might have had hope that the top medical professionals, in the U.S. government, had significant new scientific information to reveal. Instead, they heard things like this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: You shouldn't give a Tylenol to that child.
But with Tylenol, don't take it. Don't take it.
I just recommend strongly that you don't use Tylenol.
So don't take Tylenol.
Don't take Tylenol.
Don't take Tylenol.
Don't have your baby take Tylenol.
If you're pregnant, don't take Tylenol. When you have your baby, don't give your baby Tylenol.
Don't take Tylenol. Don't take it if you just can't -- I mean, it says -- fight like hell not to take it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: The American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology says, Tylenol is the only safe over-the-counter pain reliever for pregnant women. Fevers, especially in the first trimester, can increase the risk for miscarriages, preterm birth and other issues. Hence, Tylenol.
Tylenol's maker is now disputing any link between the drug and autism.
But what the President said is not actually even what his own FDA's new notice to doctors actually says. It notes that, quote, A causal relationship between taking acetaminophen while pregnant and autism has not been established, and that the matter is an ongoing area of scientific debate. The FDA is not telling pregnant women to avoid taking Tylenol.
Of course, pregnancy brings immense hope and joy, but also fear and anxiety that loom over countless decisions, from the food that you eat, to the air that you breathe, to the medicine, of course, that you take. To expectant mothers out there, living that reality, the President, himself a father of five, a grandfather of 11, offered this advice.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: If you can't tough it out, if you can't do it, that's what you're going to have to do.
Tough it out. No matter what you do.
The word tough it out, you know, it's easy for me to say, tough it out. But sometimes in life, with a lot of other things, you have to tough it out.
As I say, tough it out, a little bit.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Tough it out, instead of taking Tylenol, the President says.
Mr. Trump did not limit his remarks to Tylenol use either. He also advocated for spacing out childhood vaccines.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: You're going to go back each year for four years, five years, three years. Just break it up. Break it up, because it's too much liquid, too many different things are going into that baby at too big a -- at too big a number. The size of this thing, when you look at it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Let's get right to CNN Chief Medical Correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta.
Sanjay, thanks so much for being with us.
What evidence is there that Tylenol use during pregnancy is linked to autism?
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, there's really no cause-and-effect evidence at all, Boris. I mean, I think a lot of people expected that maybe we were going to get some new data or some new science and new evidence. There really, there wasn't anything.
[21:05:00]
We've been reporting about these association studies for quite some time. There have been a lot of them over the years. And they always raised concerns, and I think obstetricians, as a result, have been long saying, Take the lowest dose for the shortest amount of time if you're taking Tylenol during pregnancy. So that guidance has been out there for a long time.
I'll tell you a couple things. First of all, there's this thing, Boris, known as Paradox of Ubiquity. Basically, when there's -- when something is very commonly used, you can associate it with just about anything.
As one of the researchers said, you know in the hot summer months, ice cream consumption goes up and violent crime goes up. Those two things are associated now, but they have nothing to do with each other. Similar sort of thing here. In fact, Tylenol use during pregnancy has gone down, over the last 20 years, even as autism rates have gone up.
So, when there's all these association studies, somebody does, then, a big study and says, Hey, let's really dig into this. And they did that in Sweden, I don't know if we have this, but -- we can pop it up.
Over 25 years, they looked at moms, and they looked at the babies, and they looked at siblings. About close to 10 percent, 185,000 children were born to mothers who had used acetaminophen. And they compared those rates of autism to siblings who did not get acetaminophen, when they were in the womb, versus those who did. Big study, long-term study, and they did not find an associated increased risk of autism with the use of Tylenol.
So, I mean, those -- again, those association studies, they're like a signal, Boris, Hey, there's something here, let's dig into it more. They dug into it more, and they didn't find anything, Boris.
SANCHEZ: And Sanjay, there's a potential risk with toughing it out, as the President suggests, right? Because there are dangers for pregnant women--
GUPTA: Yes.
SANCHEZ: --who let a fever go untreated.
GUPTA: Yes, this was the, I think, the most concerning thing, really. Because I think, you know, I mean, I have three kids, you know, and get confused as a new parent for sure, and this is going to, I think, scare them, frankly.
But a fever, in and of itself, or an underlying infection, in and of itself, that may prompt the Tylenol use, that could be a bigger problem. As I think you stated already, fevers during pregnancy can be associated with early labor, with even miscarriage, with birth defects, with the neurodevelopmental disorders. So, there's all these things.
And this gets back to the association. They say, Well, Tylenol is associated with autism. Well, why did the person take Tylenol? Because they had a fever. Why did they have a fever? Because they had an infection. Point being that you have to investigate all these possibilities, as potentially driving an increase or an -- in association with autism, versus just the Tylenol. That's why these are complicated studies.
SANCHEZ: And Dr. Sanjay Gupta, always great to get your expertise.
My sources on this are: Former Deputy Assistant Attorney General, Tom Dupree.
Reuters' White House correspondent, Jeff Mason, who was in the room for today's announcement.
And Alyssa Farah Griffin, who served as Trump's White House Communications Director in his first term.
Jeff, I have to go to you first.
JEFF MASON, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, REUTERS: Yes.
SANCHEZ: Because you've been in the room for so many of these press conferences that at times go off the rails. This one, even in that realm, was especially odd.
MASON: I think it was one of the most extraordinary press conferences of this second term. For sure.
It reminded me, Boris, actually, of a lot of the sort of regular COVID briefings that he held in the beginning of the pandemic, in early spring of 2020, where he would come out to the White House podium, and start talking, without evidence, about sort of medical suggestions that he thought people should take to treat the disease, including at one point saying that people should ingest bleach, which his supporters later said he wasn't serious. But it came across as very serious, when he said it.
So today, he obviously has very strong opinions about medicine, and about vaccines, and about autism, and I have no doubt that he feels strongly about it, and has been interested in it for a long time. But he acknowledged that he's not a doctor. And he's not. And he even said a few times about the recommendations that they were making today, maybe it won't -- maybe the other side is right, or maybe the drugmakers are right.
So, he acknowledged that he's not even sure about this. But his kind of broader point to underscore that was, But it won't hurt. But that is not clear.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
MASON: I mean, whether or not it won't hurt, if a woman decides not to take Tylenol when she has a fever, a scientist or a doctor will be able to say this much better than I, but there are multiple risks associated with that as well.
SANCHEZ: It's interesting. Right off the top, he said, This isn't exactly 100 percent--
MASON: Yes.
SANCHEZ: --but we've made some strides on this. And then he went on to share some of these very strongly-held opinions.
Alyssa, we actually have some sound bites from President Trump's first term, when you were communications director. And he said this about COVID, from the White House podium.
[21:10:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I see the disinfectant where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or -- or almost a cleaning, because you see it gets on the lungs, and it does a tremendous number on the lungs. So it would be interesting to check that. So, that, you're going to have to use medical doctors with. But it sounds -- it sounds interesting to me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: In the past, you've said that you actually tried to stop that press conference from happening. Do you think there's anyone on the current staff raising those kind of concerns right now?
ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: Well, I remember that day well, and I remember saying, back in the West Wing, before he went out to the podium, If we give this information to the public, what are we telling them to do with it? Are we telling them, Turn their temperatures up to 95 degrees, get a humidifier? There was -- it was a study we were releasing that said there was some benefits to heat on potentially killing the coronavirus.
Now, similarly here, there's information presented to the public, from the biggest bully pulpit on the planet, the White House, from the President. And the information feels half-baked.
And I say that because if you read the FDA's own statement, toward the end of it, it seems to undermine exactly what the HHS Secretary and the President were saying. It really does not make this significant link between autism and Tylenol and pregnant mothers. But they still went forward with this information, kind of evoking the same feelings that we had during the coronavirus.
And what I would say is this. The way that announcements like this should happen, the coronavirus injecting bleach, or this announcement today, is you bring these new findings to respected medical institutions, the American Medical Association, you mentioned, the College of OBGYNs, and get them on board with your findings, so you have credentialed backers who are going to be able to say, Yes, this is credible information and we support it.
That's not what's happening. You're seeing a lot of these prominent groups saying, This isn't accurate information. And they're going to give different recommendations to their physicians and to their patients, which creates a ton of confusion for the American public.
SANCHEZ: Yes, Tom, I guess the contrast between this and COVID was that at the time, we knew relatively little about COVID. Now, they're talking about a drug that has been tested for decades.
And in fact, the company that makes Tylenol is pushing back strongly, telling CNN, quote, "The facts are that over a decade of rigorous research... confirms there is no credible evidence linking acetaminophen to autism. We stand with the many public health and medical professionals who have reviewed this science and agree."
What are the conversations like happening, right now, for the makers of Tylenol? Are they considering potentially some form of litigation?
TOM DUPREE, FORMER DEPUTY ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL: Well, I think they have to be. I mean, first, I think they're doing exactly the right thing, in fighting this in the court of public opinion, by getting that information, getting the facts out there, and activating people in the medical and scientific communities who can speak on behalf, and attest to the truth of what the manufacturer is saying.
As far as litigation goes, they have a few options, I'm sure they're considering. One is they could at least think about whether there's a basis for some sort of libel or defamation claim. My sense is that probably won't fly.
President Trump, of course, enjoys considerable immunity for things he does in the course of his public duties. So, I don't think that flies.
But what they could also look at, and I suspect they are looking at is whether they could challenge the Department of Health's guidance that was issued to medical doctors. As you noted in your opening, the actual guidance that the agency provided differs from what the President was saying from the podium today.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
DUPREE: But nonetheless, you often can succeed in setting aside agency actions and guidances that are not scientifically grounded, that are not evidence-based, under just the general rules that govern how federal agencies have to operate. And so that would be another line of attack that the manufacturers could use to push back on what happened today.
SANCHEZ: And quickly, would there be grounds for someone out there, a parent, perhaps, to see what the President said and say, I'm going to sue the maker of Tylenol?
DUPREE: They could. I suspect that class action lawyers are already dusting off complaints that they would want to try to file. I mean, this has been an area, where there has been a lot of active litigation. And I think that what was said today certainly would provide fodder for enterprising plaintiffs, lawyers, to say, Well, look, you know, if the President says it, there has to be some truth to it, and use that as a basis for their lawsuit.
So, it's a dangerous situation, if you're coming out there and making those types of statements, because they, in all likelihood, in some way, shape or form, will materialize in a lawsuit in the future.
SANCHEZ: Alyssa, finally, to you. I wonder, how much of this had to do with pressure that the administration seemingly put on itself, when they announced in the spring that, by September, there would be some great announcement about autism.
FARAH GRIFFIN: Yes, I think this was a self-inflicted wound, feeling like there had to be some kind of information put out there.
And this had leaked in The Wall Street Journal, a couple of weeks ago. I actually asked my OB-GYN if there was any evidence to suggest that Tylenol use in women, while they're pregnant, could contribute to autism. And this is something that, I mean, Dr. Gupta could speak to this better than me, that for 50 years, has been the medical standard practice, that it is the one safe pain reliever for pregnant women.
So, I think this was one of those deadlines that the White House put out there, and felt like they had to put something forward.
[21:15:00]
But I also want to know on this, this -- these criticisms of vaccines that came up in this press conference. It remains the case that 75 percent of Republicans support and trust commonly-used childhood vaccines. That information was given to the Trump administration. It's been given to Republican senators, on Capitol Hill. So, this continually kind of moving toward the RFK direction, on that particular issue, is actually wildly out of step with where the party is.
SANCHEZ: Everyone, thank you so much for the conversation. We have to leave it there. Appreciate your time.
As Alyssa just mentioned it, it wasn't just Tylenol that the President associated with autism. He also brought up vaccines, despite extensive research showing no link between the two.
My next guest ran the team that issues vaccine recommendations at the CDC, until he resigned, last month, in protest.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:20:00]
SANCHEZ: During today's announcement from the White House, linking autism to acetaminophen use during pregnancy, President Trump repeatedly brought up vaccines, and their potential association with autism, despite extensive research showing no link between them.
Still, the President shared his own opinions on vaccine guidance for kids. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I think when you go for the shot, you do it over a five time period, take it over five times or four times, and you spread it out over a period of years.
Looks like they're pumping into a horse. You have a little child, little fragile child, and you get a vat of 80 different vaccines, I guess, 80 different blends, and they pump it in. This is based on what I feel, the mumps, measles, and -- and the three should be taken separately.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: To be clear, the CDC has previously published several studies, looking at a possible link between vaccines and their ingredients and autism. None has found any evidence to suggest that vaccines increase the risk of developing autism.
My source tonight was in charge of vaccines at the CDC. He's the former Director for the National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases. Dr. Demetre Daskalakis. He resigned less than a month ago, after the CDC Director, Susan Monarez, was fired.
Doctor, thank you so much for sharing your evening with us.
The President spoke a lot about vaccines today. Have you ever seen any evidence that childhood vaccines should be spaced out, taken separately or delayed to prevent autism?
DR. DEMETRE DASKALAKIS, FORMER DIRECTOR, CDC NATIONAL CENTER FOR IMMUNIZATION AND RESPIRATORY DISEASES: Quite to the contrary, there is no evidence that supports a link between vaccines and autism.
I think listening to what we heard tonight, I am concerned that the only person who the President is listening to is Secretary Kennedy, who has a long history of mis- and dis-information, really equating vaccination with an etiology for autism. So, there is no evidence that supports those assertions.
SANCHEZ: At one point, the President suggested that there are lower rates of autism in Amish communities because they don't get vaccines. Have you seen evidence of that?
DASKALAKIS: Well, so he also said that there was evidence in places, where there wasn't acetaminophen used, that there was no autism, and there's something that both of those have in common.
People who may not seek care, or are environments where they're not able to diagnose autism, will have rates of autism that are lower. And there are studies and actually whole clinics, actually one in Pennsylvania, that really focus on caring for people in the Amish community who, in fact, do have autism.
So, this is a longstanding piece of mis- and dis-information that has been promoted by the anti-vaccine community. And unfortunately, it sounds as if the Secretary has the President's ear, and has informed him incorrectly something that could be repaired by having two experts briefing the President.
SANCHEZ: I also want to ask you about the hepatitis B vaccine, because today the President also said this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: Hepatitis B is sexually transmitted. There's no reason to give a baby that's almost just born, hepatitis B. So I would say, wait until the baby is 12-years-old.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Doctor, what is the reasoning for giving babies the hep B vaccine? Is it safe?
DASKALAKIS: So, the vaccine is safe. The reasoning is that about 90 percent of newborns, if they're exposed to hepatitis B, will go on to develop chronic hepatitis B infection. And of those, about a quarter will die early deaths, related to one of the long-term complications of hepatitis B, like scarring of the liver, like cirrhosis, liver cancer.
So, the reason that you give the vaccine early in life is because you prevent transmission from mother to child, and also from household contacts to children. Hepatitis B is not only a sexually-transmitted disease. It is transmitted from mother to child during childbirth. And there is very clear evidence that household contacts, people who are caring for the child may also transmit the virus.
So I feel, again, this is not an example of the President misspeaking. It is more of an example of the President getting, not accurate briefing information from the Secretary of Health.
[21:25:00]
SANCHEZ: Yes. So, earlier this year, when the administration announced that by September, there would be this sort of bombshell, this revelatory report that was going to reveal a cause of autism, a source for autism, was there actually enough time to parse through all the research that's out there, and determine that there's a link between even Tylenol use during pregnancy and autism?
DASKALAKIS: So Boris, my thought is that there isn't enough time. But we need to ask another question, which is Secretary Kennedy and HHS, show your work. If you've been do -- if you've done all this work, show us the data that you're using to make the assertion that acetaminophen is related to -- is causal, not just related, but causal for autism.
I think we've also heard that the paper that they've released is a lot different than what they said.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
DASKALAKIS: The paper that I saw said that there's an association, and people should be cautious around using Tylenol. That's nothing new under the sun. OB-GYNs have always told their patients to be cautious about using any drug, including acetaminophen, in pregnancy.
So, we need to see the work. And if we're not seeing the work, that is neither gold-standard science, nor is it radical transparency, which seemed to be really the emphasis of what Secretary Kennedy talks about. So, show us the data -- show us the data, show us the information, show us the justification, and then we can talk about it.
SANCHEZ: Yes, important to emphasize that association and cause are two very distinct and separate things.
DASKALAKIS: Yes.
SANCHEZ: Dr. Demetre Daskalakis, thank you so much for the time.
DASKALAKIS: Thanks, Boris. Thanks for having me.
SANCHEZ: Of course.
A big story that broke this afternoon. Jimmy Kimmel will return to Late Night. Disney announcing that "Jimmy Kimmel Live" will air tomorrow night on ABC, but apparently, not on every station. What we're learning with our entertainment sources, next.
[21:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Jimmy Kimmel is officially returning to Late Night. Disney today, announcing that he'll be back behind the desk, tomorrow, ending his indefinite suspension after just six days.
A spokesperson for Disney, which owns ABC, explained the move in a statement, saying, quote, "Last Wednesday, we made the decision to suspend production on the show to avoid further inflaming a tense situation at an emotional moment for our country. It is a decision we made because we felt some of the comments were ill-timed and thus insensitive. We have spent the last days having thoughtful conversations with Jimmy, and after those conversations, we reached the decision to return the show on Tuesday."
Keep in mind, Kimmel made those comments last Monday about the response to Charlie Kirk's death. He wasn't suspended until Wednesday, two days later, just hours after threats from Trump's FCC chair, Brendan Carr.
My sources tonight are:
CNN's Elizabeth Wagmeister.
And Axios Senior Media Reporter, Sara Fischer.
Great to see you both.
Elizabeth, you have some new reporting on Kimmel's plan to address this controversy, tomorrow night. What should we expect?
ELIZABETH WAGMEISTER, CNN ENTERTAINMENT CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Boris. So, I do hear from a source that Kimmel will absolutely address this controversy during his opening monologue. Now, that shouldn't come as a huge surprise. It would be a bit strange if he didn't address it. And if you know anything about Jimmy Kimmel, you know that he usually does go in head-first. So, we don't know exactly what he will say. But what I was told, last week, by a source was that Disney and ABC have really never censored Kimmel from speaking his mind about politics, and certainly about Trump. As you said, Boris, it wasn't until last week with those FCC threats that his show was pulled.
And what I reported, last week, is that, on Wednesday, when Bob Iger spoke with Jimmy Kimmel, and other executives spoke with Jimmy Kimmel, that Kimmel said he did not want to tone down his monologue. I was told that monologue was planned to take aim at MAGA and also at Fox News.
And that is why, my sources said at the time, they knew it would have made the situation worse. And that's exactly what we heard today, in Disney's statement, where they said that those comments could further inflame at a tense moment in this country.
SANCHEZ: And Sara, you're reporting about how Kimmel has been negotiating with ABC, about his return now for several days. Do you know if that negotiation includes some form of apology?
SARA FISCHER, CNN MEDIA ANALYST, SENIOR MEDIA REPORTER, AXIOS: I don't know that yet, but I don't think it would. I mean, Jimmy Kimmel, at this point, has a lot to say. I think he probably feels very sled (ph) by his employer.
As Elizabeth mentioned, he's been with them for well over a decade, and he's not the type of employee that just shows up and does his show. I go to Disney's Upfront presentations, every year, for advertisers. They have Kimmel do a very long bit on the business side for them, every year. He's been a good employee.
So, I can imagine that he wants to come out and, by the way, prove that this is a platform for him to have free speech, right? If he was to come out and do something that didn't feel totally genuine? I don't think that would feel right.
The thing I'm watching, Boris -- we had a few hiccups in the plan today. Disney might be bringing him back tomorrow. But one of the station affiliate groups, Sinclair--
SANCHEZ: Yes.
FISCHER: --said that it is not going to bring Kimmel back. Now, it's worth noting, Sinclair said it wants to divest some broadcast stations, right? So, it needs regulatory approval.
SANCHEZ: Right.
[21:35:00]
FISCHER: I'm curious to see what Nexstar does, the biggest local affiliate in the country.
SANCHEZ: Yes, and Sinclair was one of the voices out there, Elizabeth, demanding an apology from Kimmel. They say they're going to continue to preempt his show. So, this isn't -- this isn't exactly over. WAGMEISTER: This is far from over. And aside from Sinclair refusing to air his show, tomorrow night, they say that they are going to evaluate the situation, as Sara just pointed out.
Well, what they are going to evaluate is Kimmel likely continuing to double down on his thoughts about Trump. I believe that Disney would not be surprised, if the President continued to slam Kimmel. So, this is far from over. But this is a risk that Disney clearly was willing to take, because this is really nothing new. Trump and Kimmel have been going back and forth for years.
And as Sara just pointed out, Kimmel has really been the face of ABC. It's not just his show. Sara and I have been in the trenches, covering events together, for years. He not only does the big opening bit for them, at Upfronts for advertisers, he's also hosted the Oscars for years. And even though he didn't do that last year, they had Conan O'Brien. Jimmy didn't want to host the Oscars. And every time that ABC would ask him to do it, he would continue. There were also times where he didn't want to renew his late-night show. And again, he was begged to do it, and he continued to do it. So he's really been the face of ABC.
SANCHEZ: The FCC chair, Brendan Carr, has also threatened to go after "The View," another show on ABC, which actually, for the first time, today, addressed the Kimmel saga.
FISCHER: Yes.
SANCHEZ: Let's actually play a clip of that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WHOOPI GOLDBERG, CO-HOST, "THE VIEW": Did y'all really think we weren't going to talk about Jimmy Kimmel?
(LAUGHTER)
GOLDBERG: No one silences us.
ANA NAVARRO, CO-HOST, "THE VIEW": I don't understand--
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right.
NAVARRO: --how in this country, where the First Amendment made to the Constitution was to guarantee freedom of the press and freedom of speech, the government itself is using its weight and power to bully and scare people into silence.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: So, Carr is promising to look into "The View." Do we think that the administration is emboldened by this Kimmel incident?
FISCHER: Actually, I don't think so at all. I think we have a totally different landscape a week out. And that's because a bunch of Republicans have come out and said, Wait a minute, Brendan Carr, you went too far.
Senator Rand Paul, Senator Ted Cruz, a bunch of conservative media personalities have all said, If the Chairman is going to do this to left-wing media, what does that mean for when Democrats are in charge, and they might use the power of the office to come after us?
You actually saw Brendan Carr sort of slightly walk back his comments, today, saying they were misconstrued a little bit. I don't think he feels more emboldened. I think he actually recognizes that there's a line.
SANCHEZ: Interesting. The line held, at least for now.
FISCHER: For now.
SANCHEZ: Sara Fischer. Elizabeth Wagmeister. Thank you both so much.
Up next. President Trump's push to prosecute his political enemies. Our legal sources join us next.
[21:40:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: If there were any lingering questions about what President Trump wants the Department of Justice focused on, he just put them to rest. He wants the DOJ, not just investigating his political opponents, but actually charging and prosecuting them.
To that end, Trump's handpicked prosecutor, Lindsey Halligan, was sworn in today as the acting U.S. Attorney in the Eastern District of Virginia. That puts her in position to take over investigations into former FBI Director James Comey, Senator Adam Schiff, and New York Attorney General Letitia James. Those happen to be the three people the President called out by name, over the weekend, in a Truth Social post, directed at his Attorney General.
Important context here. The previous U.S. attorney for that district resigned under pressure, after finding there wasn't a case to bring, there wasn't sufficient evidence.
Keep in mind, Donald Trump made this promise, exactly 10 minutes into his second term.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: The scales of justice will be rebalanced. The vicious, violent and unfair weaponization of the Justice Department and our government will end.
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: More important context, Halligan has never been a prosecutor before. She's a lawyer. She worked on insurance law in Florida. And as the President pointed out, she represented him in the classified documents case, which makes her one of at least half a dozen lawyers who represented Trump that now hold positions of power in the administration.
I want to bring in Liz Oyer. She was the DOJ's pardon attorney under Trump, before she says she was ousted for refusing to bow to pressure from the administration.
Also with us, Andrew McCabe, the former Deputy Director of the FBI.
Great to see you both.
Andrew, if the President can dictate prosecutions, and publicly declare people guilty before there are even charges brought, what happens to the idea that the Department of Justice is independent of politics?
[21:45:00]
ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST, FORMER FBI DEPUTY DIRECTOR: It's obliterated. It's obliterated. There is no independence for justice. There is no integrity in public service. There is no following the facts and the law, in determining which cases are sufficient to put in front of a grand jury, if the President is dictating which cases should be charged. Period. Full stop.
I think it's important to kind of remind ourselves that when Donald Trump says he wants justice, what he really means is vengeance. He has -- he has swapped those words in his head. He knows the people he doesn't like.
And what we saw in that, whether it was a intentionally public message or maybe a private -- intended originally to be a private message, who knows? But in his very clear missive to the Attorney General was, I want these people charged and prosecuted, regardless of what the facts are, regardless of what the law is.
And that is not how the Department of Justice has functioned since the -- in the post-Watergate period. But that is where we are right now.
SANCHEZ: Liz, now with Lindsey Halligan on the job, and the President delivering these very public marching orders, what do you anticipate is going to happen?
LIZ OYER, FORMER DOJ PARDON ATTORNEY: Well, I think we have a five- alarm fire in the Justice Department. And I don't say that lightly. I know that people are hearing a lot of hyperbolic rhetoric, these days, about things that are happening and things that are happening inside the Department of Justice. But this really is a crisis point for the department.
We are seeing the things that Donald Trump has been doing, since day one of his administration, to decimate all of the safeguards within the department come to a head.
He clearly feels emboldened. He is aware of the fact that the Justice Department is being run like his personal law firm by a group of his former personal attorneys. He has systematically rooted out and removed career experts who are in a position to put some brakes on all of this. He has dismantled safeguards like oversight of ethics, transparency, professional responsibility. And he has installed people who are not qualified for their jobs. Their only qualification is that they are loyal to Donald Trump.
I think he now sees that he has a clear path to bulldoze all of the traditional safeguards that have applied in the Justice Department, and he is doing that openly, brazenly. It's really very alarming.
SANCHEZ: What's your message to remaining colleagues you may have at DOJ, that perhaps feel inclined to speak up?
OYER: We really need people to stand strong and stand up for what is right. There are a number of U.S. attorneys, throughout the country, that are going to be under the same types of pressures that the U.S. Attorney in Virginia, who was forced out faced.
And I am hoping and urging those people to stay strong, to stay true to the mission of the Justice Department, which is to serve the American people, not to serve this one master, Donald Trump. We need people, now more than ever, to stand up, be brave, and not to allow themselves to be used in this political vendetta game.
SANCHEZ: Andrew, while we have you, I do want to ask you about Tom Homan. Because as President Trump is demanding that his opponents be prosecuted, the White House is standing behind Trump's border czar, after reports that he accepted $50,000 in cash during an undercover FBI operation.
The Trump administration reportedly shut down that investigation. The DOJ, saying that the matter was subjected to a full review, and that officials found no credible evidence of any criminal wrongdoing.
Tom Homan has been making the rounds on media. Here he is tonight on Fox.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TOM HOMAN, WHITE HOUSE BORDER CZAR: I did nothing criminal. I did nothing illegal. And it's hit piece after hit piece after hit piece. And I'm glad the FBI and DOJ came out and said, and you know, and said that nothing illegal happened, and nothing, you know, no criminal activity.
You're talking about a guy who spent 34 years enforcing the law.
After all the sacrifices, after serving my nation for all these years, they want to come out and dirty me up. It's not going to end. There's a hit piece on me every two weeks. But keep coming, because you know what? Tom Homan isn't going anywhere. Tom Homan isn't shutting up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: What do you make of that response? MCCABE: Maybe he's right. Maybe there's a perfectly innocent explanation as to why he took a Cava bag with $50,000 cash in it from an FBI undercover. If there is, the administration should release the facts of that information, and expose that to the public to make their own decisions.
They've clearly killed the investigation. There's no prosecution here. There's nothing sensitive about it. They should release the details of this investigation, so people can make that decision for themselves.
SANCHEZ: Well, there's allegedly, at least, according to the reporting, there is a recording. So, they could put that out.
MCCABE: Yes.
[21:50:00]
SANCHEZ: Andrew McCabe. Liz Oyer. Appreciate the conversation.
Up next. The truth about Emmett Till's murder, 70 years later. Our source tonight wrote about the coverup of one of the most notorious hate crimes in American history.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:55:00]
SANCHEZ: Tuesday will mark 70 years, since an all-white and all-male jury in Sumner, Mississippi acquitted two white men, in the brutal lynching of a black 14-year-old, named Emmett Till.
Decades later, as President Trump pressures museums and memorials to refocus American history in MAGA's image, the 45-caliber pistol the FBI believes was used to end Till's life, one of the most haunting relics from America's past, is now on display in the Mississippi Civil Rights Museum.
Our source tonight helped discover the gun's whereabouts. Wright Thompson grew up just 23 miles from where Emmett Till was murdered, and is the best-selling author of "The Barn: The Secret History of a Murder in Mississippi."
Kaitlan spoke with Wright, earlier.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: And Wright, it's so great to have you back to -- we've talked about this before. But the same day that you actually went to visit this permanent exhibit on his murder, state officials were meeting with Smithsonian leaders, inside the museum, as the Trump administration has been carrying out this review of what's on display.
You write extensively about how no high school textbook that you ever read even mentioned his name. I wonder what that says to you about what's at stake here.
WRIGHT THOMPSON, AUTHOR, "THE BARN: THE SECRET HISTORY OF A MURDER IN MISSISSIPPI," SENIOR WRITER, ESPN, EXECUTIVE PRODUCER, TRUESOUTH: It didn't really occur to me until the last several months, as the book has become shockingly more true, that when America was great again, to some percentage of the population, was actually before the Civil Rights movement, which means that America was great again, on August 27th, 1955.
And you know it -- I wrote a book that I thought was about the not so distant past. But it's turned into a book about current events in a way that I'm certainly not smart enough to intend. But it's -- you know, it -- the book is a history of how the world before Emmett Till was killed, was created, and the story of people who successfully resisted and changed that world, which feels a little bit like a crystal ball in a playbook now.
COLLINS: Well, I mean, in terms of that, I just wonder, even since our last conversation, how that's resonating with you more, given what's happened lately.
THOMPSON: Having a book out means like talking about it over and over, almost ad nauseam, you know? And my mother jokes that the most dangerous place in the world is between me and a microphone. But, like, I mean, you just -- you talk about it over and over.
And what is interesting is that the audiences are -- based on their questions, and I'm making eye contact through all of these things, they clearly are reading this story, to try to understand what the MAGA folks want for America. And it really is becoming more and more, like I said, like a crystal ball, like if you want to know what the future holds, we already know the answer. This has happened before.
COLLINS: Well, and the book is focused on the barn, where he was tortured. And I've read it. It talks about those scenes, the witnesses.
On the gun itself, though, what was it like to find this kind of a piece of history, tragic as it may be, all these years later?
THOMPSON: It was terrifying, but also the fact that it's in a museum, a museum that owes its existence to liberal Mississippi Governor, William Winter, and conservative Mississippi Governor, Haley Barbour.
When I found the gun, it was in a safety deposit box, in a bank, in Greenwood, Mississippi, and the fact that it was hidden is what gave it its menace. And now that it's out in the open, and people can go see it, it's almost being stripped of that menace. And that's why it's important to teach history, not so kids feel bad about themselves, but so that we know and do better.
And I find it tremendously hopeful that at this moment, where history, and especially black history, is under assault, that there are bipartisan people working in a state that doesn't always have a history of doing the right thing, in this regard, to try to preserve that history. I find it an odd note of hope, when it feels like, at least when I read my headlines, there aren't a lot of reasons to hope.
COLLINS: So just all this time, it's been held in a bank?
THOMPSON: It's been passed around, and it was the strange trophy. I don't really understand it. It's very odd. And it's the perfect metaphor. The FBI ran ballistics on it. And it's a World War II service pistol, the 1911 .45 made by Ithaca, and it still fires.
[22:00:00]
COLLINS: Wright Thompson. The book is "The Barn: The Secret History of a Murder in Mississippi." The paperback version is out now. Thank you so much for joining us.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: And thank you for sharing your evening with us.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts right now.
