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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Trump Shifts From Ukraine Has No Cards To Saying They Can "Win All Of Ukraine Back In Its Original Form"; Kimmel Taping First Show Since Being Pulled Off Air; Trump Cancels Meeting With Dem Leaders As Shutdown Looms. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired September 23, 2025 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: They appeared this morning, and an anonymous group, called The Secret Handshake, is claiming credit for them. A plaque on the statue read in part, In Honor of Friendship Month.
Now, believe it or not, the National Park Service issued a permit for the sculptures that allowed them to remain there until 08:00 p.m., this Sunday. According to The Washington Post, the permit application says the purpose of the statues is to, quote, Demonstrate freedom of speech and artistic expression using political imagery. We'll see if it lasts that long.
The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now. I'll see you, tomorrow.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: A shocking 180, even for a president who is known for them.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
Good evening from New York, where President Trump today stunned the United Nations with what was, even for him, a blistering address, mocking the UN itself, questioning whether the United Nations should even exist, and also telling world leaders who were his audience inside that room today, quote, Your countries are going to hell.
But he left his most stunning declaration for actually, after all of that. In a Truth Social post that came a few hours later, that Ukraine's president is hailing as a big shift, the President appears to have done a 180, switching his position from, Ukraine has no cards and will have to give up land to President Putin, to Zelenskyy and his allies are in a position to win all of Ukraine back in its original form. The most immediate question, of course, is what prompted this.
This evening, President Zelenskyy, for his part, said that the move even surprised him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRET BAIER, FOX NEWS HOST: Are you surprised to hear that? VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, PRESIDENT OF UKRAINE: A little bit. A little bit. I mean, this, I'm sure in my people, in my army, and I'm sure in strengthening of the -- in support of the United States. But President Trump was more positive in it, and he showed that he wants to support Ukraine to the very end.
This was a little -- surprise for me. You're right. I was -- very positive signals--
BAIER: So--
ZELENSKYY: --from the side that Trump and America will be with us to the end of the war. Yes, we will see, Bret.
BAIER: Yes.
ZELENSKYY: We will see. But God bless, it will be so.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Clearly, a good day for President Zelenskyy.
And for the American president, there are a few things that he could have said that would have been more of a change than what we all witnessed inside the Oval Office, alongside his Ukrainian counterpart, just seven months ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: You've allowed yourself to be in a very bad position.
ZELENSKYY: From the very beginning -- from the very beginning of the war--
TRUMP: And he happens to be right about it.
ZELENSKYY: From the very beginning of the war--
TRUMP: You're not in a good position.
ZELENSKYY: --I was--
TRUMP: You don't have the cards right now. With us, you start having cards.
ZELENSKYY: I'm not playing cards.
TRUMP: But right now, you don't have -- you're playing cards..
ZELENSKYY: I'm very serious, Mr. President. I'm very serious.
TRUMP: You're playing cards.
ZELENSKYY: I'm the president in a war.
TRUMP: You're gambling with the lives of millions of people.
ZELENSKYY: You think--
TRUMP: You're gambling with World War III.
ZELENSKYY: What you're -- what you're speaking about --
TRUMP: You're gambling with World War III.
ZELENSKYY: What are you speaking about?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: The difference between that moment and now is nothing short of remarkable. It comes after a failed meeting with President Putin, in Alaska, and a battlefield that has remained a slog, with the President today acknowledging that he doesn't have the pull with Putin he once thought he did.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I thought that was going to be the easiest one because of my relationship with Putin. But unfortunately, that relationship didn't mean anything, unfortunately.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: The President's call for Ukraine to continue its fight, in an openness to a definitive victory on the battlefield, not only runs counter to what his administration has been saying.
It's not the same position that we heard from his Secretary of State, earlier, at the United Nations, and what he was essentially arguing about the future of this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARCO RUBIO, UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF STATE: A war that cannot end militarily, it will end at a negotiating table. That's where this war will end.
Very generous offers have been made. For example, a ceasefire at the current lines of contact, while all the other details on this future -- on the future of the conflict, could be worked out in terms of future territorial lines.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Also tonight, when it comes to the question of Russian drones violating the airspace of our NATO allies, compare what the President said just about two weeks ago, to his response on that same question today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: What's your reaction to Russian drone incursion into Poland? TRUMP: Could have been a mistake. Could have been a mistake.
REPORTER: Do you think that NATO countries should shoot down Russian aircraft if they enter their airspace?
TRUMP: Yes, I do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: A quick answer from the President there. When he was pressed further on this question, this is what he said two minutes later.
[21:05:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Would you back up NATO allies? You said that you thought that they should shoot down the Russian aircraft. Would you back them up? Would the United States help them out in some way?
TRUMP: Depends on the circumstance. But, you know, we're very strong toward NATO.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: There are a few people who know the region and this President's views on it better than my first source tonight. He is the former U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine, and represented the Trump administration there, during his first term.
And Ambassador Bill Taylor, it's great to have you back here on THE SOURCE, especially on a day like this, and just, I can only imagine what your reaction was as you read through that Truth Social post today.
President Zelenskyy is describing it as a gamechanger. Is that how you see it?
AMB. WILLIAM TAYLOR, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO UKRAINE: It is, Kaitlan. It is a demonstration that the President has finally figured out that Putin is the problem, that Zelenskyy represents a nation that shares our values, that we want to support in our own interest, as well as the European interests, as well as Ukrainian interests.
So, this is a very good sign, a good move. It's not totally out of the blue, that is, it's been directing, kind of going in this direction for the last several months. You pointed out the nadir, nine months ago. But since then, it's been on the way up. And this is a good indication of where I think the President has gotten to be.
COLLINS: Do you think this has anything to do with what's actually playing out on the battlefield in Ukraine? Or do you think this more has to do with what we've heard or what we have not seen from President Putin, following that summit in Alaska?
TAYLOR: On the battlefield, Putin is not winning. On the battlefield, the Ukrainians are holding off the Russian army. Yes, the Russian army is taking a little bit here, a little bit there, but the -- but at incredible cost, Kaitlan. I mean, you've reported, it's a million Russian soldiers either killed or taken off the battlefield from wounds. This is -- this is horrible for the Russians. The Russians are not winning.
And if this new statement, this recent statement, today's statement by President Trump, indicates that he's all in for -- in support of Ukraine? Then yes, Ukraine can succeed, can prevail, can win, as President Trump has said.
COLLINS: Well, and in terms of that. I mean, from being Ambassador to Ukraine, obviously, you have to think about President Putin a lot. How do you think the Kremlin is going to respond to this?
TAYLOR: President Putin is going to be disappointed, as he should be, as we want him to be. We want him--
(CROSSTALK)
COLLINS: But do we think he's going to lash out? What do you -- what do you expect to see from him in terms of striking Ukraine--
TAYLOR: He's got nothing left.
COLLINS: --hitting more?
TAYLOR: Kaitlan, that's what he's doing. That's what -- I was there last week, I was there for two weeks, in the beginning of September, up until last week, and that's what he does every night. So, he's lashing out at Ukraine. Of course he is, that's what he does.
And Ukrainians continue to grit their teeth and move forward. And this is going to encourage them more, that the Americans are with them, as President Zelenskyy -- you quoted President Zelenskyy exactly right. It demonstrates that the Americans are with them.
COLLINS: When it comes to what's happening here, as all this is playing out, I mean, Trump was complaining today about how ineffective the United Nations is. What is clear is that actually having these meetings with other world leaders here has kind of proven is, you know, where he's heard a lot of this from, the world leaders he's been speaking with.
I believe Secretary of State, Marco Rubio, is going to meet with Sergey Lavrov, here in New York, tomorrow. I mean, that is -- that conversation just got a lot more fascinating, following this post.
TAYLOR: A lot more fascinating. And Secretary Rubio, if nothing else, takes his cues from the President. And the President has been very clear today. So, I imagine that Secretary Rubio is going to be also very clear, tomorrow, with Lavrov.
And again, the message has to be to the Russians, to Putin, to Lavrov, You can't win. You're not winning. We are going to support the Ukrainians as long as they need us to prevail. And the Europeans are there too. The Ukrainians have demonstrated great bravery and great courage and great persistence in fighting for this. So, that's the message for Lavrov, tomorrow.
COLLINS: Yes, we'll see what Lavrov's response is.
Ambassador Bill Taylor, it's always great to have you here. Thank you for joining tonight.
And also joining me is our next best source on this, The New York Times White House and National Security Correspondent, David Sanger, who is the Author of "New Cold Wars: China's Rise, Russia's Invasion, and America's Struggle to Defend the West."
[21:10:00]
And David, I think, just going off of what the Ambassador was saying there, one question is, is this position a firm position by President Trump, who has, for months, said that -- just weeks ago, was saying that Zelenskyy is going to have to give up land to end this war. Now he's saying maybe they can get all of it back.
DAVID SANGER, CNN POLITICAL & NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST, WHITE HOUSE & NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT, THE NEW YORK TIMES, AUTHOR, "NEW COLD WARS": Well, Kaitlan, I don't think there's any such thing as a permanent position or even a consistent position on some of these big foreign policy issues, inside the Trump White House. We've just seen too many iterations, too many changes over the time.
I think, as Ambassador Taylor had it just right, it took the President a long time to get here. But let's not overemphasize how fully in the President is. Because, he did not say that the United States would restore the kind of military aid that the U.S. was providing, for the first three years, and that JD Vance and others campaigned as a big mistake. He said that, We would continue to sell arms to the Europeans, and they, through NATO, can give them to the Ukrainians as they want.
But he sort of stepped back, and at the end of his post, he said, You know, I wish you both well, as you go fight it out.
So, there's some concern among the Europeans here, and you may have picked up some of this today, at the UN as well, that the President is sort of backing off, washing his hands of this, and then maybe setting himself up to go to the Russians and begin to try to reopen diplomatic and trade relations, which he's long said he wants to go do.
COLLINS: Well, I mean, and he was going on at length about Russia's economy today, and saying, When the Russian people realize what is happening here. I mean, he even called Russia, he said they're just a paper tiger, basically. That is a pretty shockingly different position than when he was telling Zelenskyy, You don't have any cards here.
SANGER: It's a shockingly different position from the one he was taking a few weeks ago, when he said, Zelenskyy has got no choice but to negotiate. He got into a war with a larger nuclear power. Well, he didn't get into the war. He got -- he got invaded by a larger nuclear power.
COLLINS: Yes.
SANGER: Much as the President may want to taunt President Putin by calling him a paper tiger, the Russians still do have the world's largest nuclear arsenal, and at various moments in this conflict, they've threatened to use tactical nuclear weapons, or at least suggested they might turn to that. They still have the ability to field a much larger army than the Ukrainians do. Ambassador Taylor had it just right. They're not winning. But they're also not losing well.
COLLINS: Well, and in terms of that, the question for NATO allies is Trump today answered so quickly when a reporter said, Should they shoot down Russian aircraft that come into their airspace. As, you know, he was just saying not that long ago, Maybe it was a mistake. The Polish Deputy Prime Minister responded and tweeted, Roger that, earlier today, in response to what Trump said.
The question is, NATO allies shoot down a Russian drone, what happens after that?
SANGER: If--
COLLINS: And is the United States backing them up on that?
SANGER: If they shoot down drones, as they did over Poland, that's one thing. If they shoot down a manned aircraft, which is what was flying over Estonia? That's another thing, right? I mean, we shoot down drones, all the time, nobody gets hurt, usually, and that's not that big a deal.
A manned aircraft would be a big deal over NATO territory. And all of a sudden, if you've had -- you've then got a crisis, right? A NATO ally, under the command of a U.S. commander, who runs all of NATO, has then shot down a manned Russian aircraft, and the Russians could decide to escalate. One would hope that this is something the administration is beginning to game out, and think about what their responses would be.
COLLINS: Have you heard anything? I mean, you're one of the best- sourced reporters in this space. Have you heard anything about why Trump posted this today, where this came from?
SANGER: You know--
COLLINS: He didn't mention it in his speech. It's not like he came out and it was like going to be a tenet of his speech at the United Nations today.
SANGER: This is the strange thing. He spoke for -- he was supposed to speak for 14 minutes? He spoke for 56, something like that. He went on, on many topics, including his anger that as a real estate developer, he didn't get the contract to redo the United Nations.
He did not speak about Russia and Ukraine, the central issue that has animated national security professionals, around the world, and certainly around the West, for three and a half years now. And then he turns out this Truth Social.
He's sort of gone from one extreme to the other. At one point, as you showed him the tape, he said, You don't have the cards. Well, obviously, the Ukrainians have some cards. They're making 3.5 million drones a year now and scoring some big victories. At this other end, today, he says, You can win.
[21:15:00]
Well, I'm not entirely sure what has changed on the battlefield, that is -- because they have not been able to go take that territory for--
COLLINS: Yes.
SANGER: --for the President of the United States--
COLLINS: And also, does that include Crimea? Is that what he's talking--
SANGER: Yes.
COLLINS: --when he says, Original, go back to everything. Obviously, that would be back to 2014.
David Sanger, we will see what happens here, and if this position holds. Thank you so much for that reporting.
SANGER: Thank you, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: Great to have you, and the Ambassador.
Up next here. Another story that has been dominating the headlines in the last week. Jimmy Kimmel is back in his studio. The audience is now there. He returns to late night in just a couple of hours. The big question is what he will say? We're live, outside the studio, and we have new reporting on what that monolog is going to look like. That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:20:00]
COLLINS: We're following a breaking story this hour, because right now, Jimmy Kimmel is taping his first show, after a tense standoff with ABC.
CNN saw the audience. They were in line earlier, before they went in for tonight's taping. And according to a source, telling CNN tonight, that audience is going to hear directly from Jimmy Kimmel on the controversy that has dominated the news, ever since he made comments in the wake of Charlie Kirk's assassination, and the subsequent pressure campaign by the federal government and the fallout from that pressure campaign.
If you plan on tuning in tonight, there is a chance you still not be able -- still won't be able to watch it. That's because Sinclair and Nexstar announced they are going to be preempting Jimmy Kimmel's return to the airwaves tonight. Those two local broadcasting giants own about a fifth of all ABC affiliates, nationwide, meaning, if you live in one of these places that you're seeing on the map right here, you're not going to be able to see the show.
My source in Los Angeles tonight is CNN's Stephanie Elam, right outside Jimmy Kimmel's studio.
And Stephanie, I just wonder kind of what it's been like out there, and what we're expecting in the next couple of hours here.
STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It's been even more bubbly out here on Hollywood Boulevard than normal, Kaitlan.
We were out here watching the audience members make their way into the queue to line up, down that way, to go into the show. We caught up with a few of them, and many of them just wanted to hear what Kimmel had to say tonight.
We know by talking to them, some of them tried to get tickets right after it was announced that his show was coming back, some of them just happened to already have tickets for tonight. So, they were going in to hear from him, and wanted to hear him in his own words.
We also saw a demonstration out here, before the show started taping, people supporting Jimmy Kimmel. A lot of people still coming out with signs.
Jimmy Kimmel is a huge personality in Los Angeles, simply because of him, looking out for the people who are not the big-name millionaires here in Hollywood, but for the grunt workers who put on these shows, and how he supports those teams.
So, you've seen people coming out, supporting him, wanting to hear from him, and even talking to people just walking on the street, Kaitlan. We spoke to one man from Northern California, we also spoke to a woman from Tennessee that just happened to be here, as tourists here in Hollywood. Both of them saying that it was important for Kimmel to come back, and they also wanted to hear what he has to say for himself, about what has transpired over this last almost one week.
COLLINS: Yes, for all the complaints from the White House about his ratings, I assume they're going to be quite high tonight, as everyone tunes in.
ELAM: Yes.
COLLINS: Stephanie, great to have you. We'll check back in with you, as there's more from outside the studio.
My media sources are also here tonight.
And Brian Stelter, I mean, the biggest question is, how does Jimmy Kimmel address all of this?
BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA ANALYST: Yes. If I were Jimmy Kimmel, and if I were his writers, I would think about what to say to the viewers to make this less about Jimmy Kimmel and more about the public. Because there're a lot of folks who don't like to be lectured by a multimillionaire liberal late-night show host, even though I happen to think he's very funny, and has a lot to say.
What's important about what's happened in the last week and the ups -- the uproar across the country, the groundswell of attention, all of the criticism of ABC's move, all of the boycott talk, all of it, what's important is about average Americans having free speech rights, average Americans not feeling chilled or intimidated during this period in American history.
So, if I were Kimmel, I would talk about that tonight. I would talk about that old protest message you see on protest signs, Use your rights or lose your rights. Because ultimately, this is not really about Kimmel. He just happens to be the symbol at the moment. It's about something much bigger in America. And if I were him, I'd want to move on past the controversy involving just one guy and make it bigger.
COLLINS: Yes.
And Bill Carter, obviously, one thing that we do, as White House reporters, is track everything the President says. This is a president who has no issue with weighing in on, on virtually every issue. I have not seen him respond to the fact that Jimmy Kimmel will be back on the air tonight.
STELTER: Yes.
COLLINS: We were going to -- we were there at the United Nations, this morning, when he came, and he didn't speak to reporters there. We'll see if he does, as he's leaving New York tonight. But obviously, he hasn't said anything.
STELTER: Yes.
COLLINS: We did hear from one of his close allies, someone who has touted him before and praised him, Joe Rogan, who is incredibly influential. And he was critical of how the Trump administration has handled this overall.
I want you to listen to what Joe Rogan had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE ROGAN, HOST, "THE JOE ROGAN EXPERIENCE" PODCAST: First of all, I definitely don't think that the government should be involved, ever, in dictating what a comedian can or cannot say in a monolog. That's (bleep) crazy.
ANDREW SANTINO, AMERICAN COMEDIAN AND ACTOR: Crazy.
ROGAN: Now, if the -- the problem is the companies, if they're being pressured by the government, so if that's real? And if people on the right are like, Yes, go get them? Oh, my God, you're crazy. You're crazy for supporting this. Because this will be used on you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:25:00]
COLLINS: Bill, what are your thoughts on what you heard there from Joe Rogan?
BILL CARTER, FORMER NEW YORK TIMES MEDIA REPORTER, AUTHOR, "THE WAR FOR LATE NIGHT": Well, I think it's consistent with what we've heard from other conservative voices over the past week. And maybe Donald Trump has heard that too, or at least he's thinking about the fact that may have swung public opinion a little bit, if you have these conservative voices, like Ted Cruz, and Mitch McConnell, and Joe Rogan, and The Wall Street Journal editorial page all saying, This is not a fight to have for conservatives, because they're arguing that it might blow back on them.
The argument ought to be that it's just wrong. It's just wrong, it's against what we -- our values as a country that believes in free speech. That should be the issue. And I expect Jimmy to address it in that way tonight.
But I think Trump, doesn't want to pump up Kimmel anymore. Kimmel is going to get a huge amount of attention, tonight, because of all this, and there's not much Trump can do to knock that down, at this point. He'll have something to say tomorrow, I expect.
COLLINS: Yes, I mean, and that is the question of what that looks like. And that was the other point that Joe Rogan -- that Joe Rogan was making, was that one, this does -- this does elevate Jimmy Kimmel. Everyone's going to be watching now to see what he says, liberals and conservatives alike.
Joe Rogan also had this to say, in terms of just spending time on this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROGAN: For Jimmy Kimmel, all this does is help him.
SANTINO: Yes.
ROGAN: It makes his show bigger, much more support.
He comes back to a standing ovation. Donald Trump tweets mean (bleep) about him, and then the world moves on. This is--
SANTINO: He still sucks. He still sucks.
ROGAN: I think that is also (bleep) insane. I don't have the time to do that. How do you have time to do that? How do you have time, while you're running the world, to be tweeting that you don't like talk show hosts?
SANTINO: Yes. ROGAN: That is so--
SANTINO: So crazy.
ROGAN: --crazy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I mean, if you've been paying attention to Trump, it's--
CARTER: That's well said too.
COLLINS: --it's not that crazy--
STELTER: Yes, it's--
COLLINS: --because this is, like, pretty par for the course here--
CARTER: Of course.
COLLINS: --Brian, but.
STELTER: It's what we expect, isn't it? He's a TV talk show host at heart himself, President Trump. But I do think there's something different. When someone like Joe Rogan is spending time talking about this, it shows how the story broke through, unlike most Trump controversies or Trump-related controversies.
There have been lots of other episodes of how the government, the Trump administration, is using its power in unusual and, in some cases, maybe even dubious, legally -- dubious ways, to punish critics, to go after perceived enemies.
This one broke through in a different way, I think. This one was a wake-up call to people, partly because of the role of local stations, partly because everybody recognizes Jimmy Kimmel. Everybody knows what their local TV stations are all about. So, this has resonated differently.
If these local TV station owners that are refusing to air Kimmel, Sinclair and Nexstar, if they continue to refuse to air Kimmel, that's going to remain a story, it's going to remain in the news, it's going to be noticeable to viewers.
And it really very vividly illustrates the power dynamics here, this idea of companies cowering to Trump, trying to appease him. I think it scares a lot of Americans, and it's a wake-up call. It's a really easily understandable story. It's not some kind of nerdy, wonky story about some obscure federal agency. This is a story that actually breaks through to average Americans.
COLLINS: Yes, Bill, what do you make of Nexstar and Sinclair still deciding to preempt the episodes of Jimmy Kimmel?
CARTER: Well, there's two things.
One is that they're conservative, and they probably want to take a stand, at least show they're taking a stand for a while, maybe.
But the other thing, of course, is the start of this was because they have business, big business, with the government--
STELTER: Right.
CARTER: --and they are still involved in that. So I think they want to continue to curry favor with the administration, at least by saying, We're not giving in right away.
My guess, though, is this, they will not last too long with this boycott. I really don't think so now, because it feels wrong now. I think Brian put it, most of America sees this story for what it is, that government's interfering with somebody's free speech, and we don't do that in America. I think people are understanding that.
COLLINS: Well, and Brian today, I mean, what we were hearing from Brendan Carr, The New York Times was reporting he spoke at a forum today, and he was saying that Jimmy Kimmel was pulled off the air because of ratings.
I mean, that's obviously not why he was pulled off the air.
STELTER: Obviously not why. But Carr's now trying to--
COLLINS: Even if you like him or dislike him.
STELTER: Yes, but--
COLLINS: It wasn't what it was.
STELTER: But Carr's been trying to distance himself from what happened last week, from that mob boss-type language. He's been trying to say he had nothing to do with it.
I think it does show that there might be a possibility of overstepping, might be a possibility that, maybe some of these government officials who are trying to do Trump's bidding and help Trump achieve goals, maybe they're better off not saying the quiet part out loud, in some cases, the way that happened last week.
COLLINS: And Bill, what do you think about the Disney of all of this, and the decision-making from the top executives, over at Disney and ABC, in terms of taking Jimmy Kimmel off air, and now making this decision to put him back on, how they have responded to what the response has been, taking him off.
[21:30:00]
CARTER: Well, I guess you could say that they were cornered, and they decided they could either kneel down or stand up. And, at first, they were, like many of the others who have given in, deciding whether it was the right thing to do, to let Trump have his way, and maybe it'd be easier for them.
But the reaction to the -- obviously, in the Hollywood community and all over the country, I think, convinced them what they already knew, which was the right thing, is not to just give in, because once you give in, it just gets worse. They gave in on the Stephanopoulos thing, and now it's gotten worse.
And I think here, they decided, We got to stand for something. And I think what they're doing is basically saying, This is our guy. We're backing our guy. He's coming back on the air. Let's get on with it now. Let's move past this, and have what we've had before, which is a comedian who has a free speech to make jokes about the president. They've done that in late night, since 1954. It's going to continue.
COLLINS: Yes, even though the President was saying last week that too negative of coverage should be illegal. We will be watching closely to see what Jimmy Kimmel has to say.
CARTER: Yes.
COLLINS: Obviously, we'll bring that to everyone here.
And also, in Washington, this is another story that we're tracking tonight, because there are just days left to avoid a government shutdown. The President has just yanked a top meeting, with top Democrats, to hammer out a deal, after they were touting the fact that they had secured a meeting with him.
We're going to speak to a congressional source, about whether or not the government's going to shut down next week, right next.
[21:35:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, President Trump's sudden cancelation of Thursday's meeting, with the two top Democrats in Congress, has Washington careening toward a possible government shutdown.
A source tells CNN that the President's move today, to scrap a high- stakes -- high-stakes sit-down, with Senator Chuck Schumer, and Congressman Hakeem Jeffries, the Majority Leader over in the House or -- Minority Leader over in the House, came after the President had been on the phone with the Senate Majority Leader, John Thune, and the House Speaker, Mike Johnson. In that call, the two Republican leaders cautioned President Trump against making any deal with Democrats, to avert a government shutdown, next week.
And today, in his lengthy post that came as he was arriving at the United Nations, the President said, quote, "I have decided that no meeting... could possibly be productive," citing what Democrats are demanding in exchange.
And tonight, we're hearing from Jeffries and Schumer, hitting back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES (D-NY): The statement that Donald Trump issued today was unhinged, and it related to issues that have nothing to do with the spending bill that is before the Congress, and the need to try to avoid a government shutdown. Nothing to do.
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): We know Donald Trump watches a lot of television. Mr. President, if you're watching television, shut it off and come sit down and negotiate with us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Joining me tonight is the Democratic congressman, Greg Casar of Texas.
And it's great to have you here, sir.
Because, I think one big question for House Democrats is, how do you want your Democratic leaders to respond to this? You heard what they said there. What do you want them to do next?
REP. GREG CASAR (D-TX): I think our Democratic leaders need to execute a three-step plan.
First, we need to inform the American public about what this fight is really about, which is saving health care for millions of people, making sure health care costs don't dramatically go up, in some cases, double, for millions more people. Donald Trump is going to keep on saying wacky and unhinged things, but I think Democrats need to get focused and make sure that we hear what this fight is really about.
Second, we need to stick together as a party, and I'm proud to see Leader Jeffries and Leader Schumer sticking together in this fight.
And then third, we need to drive Republicans to the table and say, Even if House Republicans would rather have a shutdown rather than save Americans' health care, we need Democrats and the American people united, to push Republicans to come to the table and stop this craziness that, frankly, is going to lose people their health care, potentially even lead to people losing their lives needlessly. We can't have that happen.
COLLINS: You criticized Senator Schumer. It wasn't just you. There were a lot of Democrats who did so, back in March, when he supported that Republican-led spending bill to keep the government open. You said at the time that Democrats were supposed to be working and fighting for working people, not putting up a fake fight.
Do you have confidence in Senator Schumer, this time, to lead on this?
CASAR: You're right to mention that I criticized Senator Schumer in the past, but I'm proud to see that he is sticking together with Leader Jeffries and the House Democrats. Of course, the proof will be in the pudding here.
But really, this is part of a bigger debate about who the Democratic Party is supposed to be, right now. Are we supposed to just roll over and play dead, and hope that people will vote for Democrats because they see how bad Trump is? Or are we going to stand up and fight and stand for something? And I'm proud that, now, our leaders, and I think all the Democrats are united, around standing and fighting for something, fighting for your health care, fighting to make sure that working people get taken care of, not just billionaire donors that want a tax cut because you've lost your health care.
COLLINS: Judging by those comments today, it sounds like Schumer and Jeffries are still willing to meet with Trump. They're saying, We need to be meeting about this. Do you think that they should be meeting with the President?
[21:40:00]
CASAR: I think the leaders are right to have asked for the meeting with Donald Trump, and I think Donald Trump abandoning the negotiations, at the last minute, shows that Donald Trump is running scared.
I was a labor organizer, before I was in Congress. And every time, the boss blew up negotiations at the last minute, it's because the boss thought they were going to lose. If this high-profile meeting happens, and I hope we keep pressing the President for a meeting, then the American people can hear what this fight is really about. Democrats wanting to save your health care and drag down your costs. While Republicans and Trump would rather shut down the government than do that.
COLLINS: If the government shuts down, who do you think voters are going to hold accountable?
CASAR: No, look, Democrats--
COLLINS: Do you worry it could be Democrats?
CASAR: Look, Democrats are out here saying, We want to make sure you have your health care. We want to make sure that your costs are lower.
Democrats should keep on advocating for the things that take care of everyday people, while you have Donald Trump saying he won't even have a meeting about keeping the government open. Donald Trump's saying he won't give in to demands to save people's health care.
I think we've got Donald Trump exactly where we want him, which is having to have a real debate about real people's lives. Trump wants to deflect and talk about Kimmel or Greenland. But if Democrats stay in the fight, and make sure the conversation is about what matters to everyday people, watching at home, then I think Trump is scared he's going to lose if we have to talk about the real issues.
COLLINS: Yes, and some people might ask, what leverage the Democratic leaders are going to have here, given Republicans control both branches and the White House, obviously.
But can I ask you, because one move we did see, as the leaders have been trying to kind of avert this, was the House had narrowly approved a bill, funding the government, keeping it basically at current funding levels, through November 21st, last week, just narrowly. The Senate didn't have the 60 votes though, to get that through.
Had there been no filibuster, which is something that you have advocated for, that wouldn't have happened. Does it change your view on whether or not the filibuster should exist?
CASAR: The filibuster has been used to block civil rights legislation for decades. The filibuster is the reason that you have this radical gerrymandering happening all across the country. I believe that we need to pass positive legislation that helps everyday people, and certainly need to reform, carve out or abolish the filibuster to get it done.
And look, what Republicans are trying to jam down people's throats, I do not think will hold up in the court of public opinion, when people realize--
COLLINS: Yes, you--
CASAR: --that they're trying to take 15 million (ph) people off their health care entirely. And so, in my view, we should have a country where the majority is able to govern. And in my view, right now, even though Republicans have the majority, they are in shambles, they are not able to govern, and it's up to Democrats--
COLLINS: Yes, you've likened -- you've likened the filibuster--
CASAR: --to hold them accountable--
(CROSSTALK)
COLLINS: --you've likened the filibuster, Congressman, to saying it's of the Jim Crow era. Obviously, that's something President Biden himself agreed with you on, at one point.
But you're saying that even despite the fact that it prevented them from passing that last week, it doesn't change your view on -- that you believe the filibuster, that you should get rid of it, as Congress.
CASAR: I do not support the filibuster.
COLLINS: OK.
CASAR: And I believe, frankly, and I believe, frankly, Kaitlan, that I don't think we would have a Republican majority today, and I don't think we'd have Donald Trump in office today, if we had abolished the filibuster and passed laws to drive down the cost of child care, raise the minimum wage, pull millions of seniors out of poverty by passing Social Security expansion.
I think if we had abolished the filibuster, and really gotten things done, for hundreds of millions of Americans, when we had Joe Biden in the White House, I don't think we would have this unhinged Republican majority or Donald Trump in the White House today.
COLLINS: Congressman Greg Casar, great to have you. And we will be in touch, next week, to see what happens in Washington. Thanks for your time tonight.
CASAR: Thank you, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: Up next here for us. A CNN report on what began as an investigation into swatting threats. When people call 911, for a crime that is not happening somewhere, the police show up. It has just turned into something way bigger than that, with the Secret Service uncovering a massive network for spies, hackers and organized crime.
What it could have done and what we know about it. John Miller is my source tonight.
[21:45:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, investigators have only just started to unravel a mystery that is straight out of a spy novel, basically, but with much more serious consequences.
Take, for example, what's happening right here in New York City. World leaders from all over are convening, for the United Nations General Assembly, as the Secret Service announced that it has uncovered a massive and sophisticated operation that is capable of wiping out cell service for the entire city.
[21:50:00]
Officials have been investigating a surge in swatting calls against top government officials. That led them to apartments like this one, where all concentrated within miles of New York City, empty of furniture and people, but full of SIM cards and servers that officials say could be operated remotely to create massive amounts of phone traffic. Officials say the electronic web that they found is so powerful it could actually send an anonymous text to every human, in the United States, within 12 minutes.
CNN's John Miller is on this story, and my source tonight.
And John, I mean reading your story this morning. One, this seems terrifying. Two, the fact that, as they were doing the investigation into swatting, these calls to basically 911, saying, for example, what happened with Marjorie Taylor Greene's house, not that long ago. The police show up. Nothing's there. It was just an investigation into that, and that's how they found all of this?
JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT & INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, that's how they started it.
The Secret Service under Sean Curran, the new Director, created a unit called the Advanced Threat Unit. And this was agents, analysts, but computer scientists, because they wanted to get to the bottom of these swatting calls, because they were getting closer to the President.
Once Susie Wiles, the Chief of Staff, is getting swatting calls. She's a Secret Service protectee. They got very interested in getting into the digging down. And that led them to what they thought was going to be maybe a location that had a Voice over IP, something in it, which led to another and another and another, nine locations, basically in a circle around New York City, with the capability of 300 servers with a 100,000 SIM cards.
So, think of a SIM card as a phone number. You've got these computer servers able to activate hundreds -- you know, 100,000 telephones, simultaneously, separately, in waves, enough, really, to overwhelm the cellular infrastructure for New York City, and essentially collapse it.
COLLINS: Well, I mean, and when you look into this, the part of this that was super disturbing, what -- you heard from the Secret Service was how well-funded and well-organized it is in terms of that.
I want people to just listen to what the Secret Service officials had to say about this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MATT MCCOOL, SPECIAL AGENT IN CHARGE, SECRET SERVICE NEW YORK FIELD OFFICE: So what we do know is that foreign governments and criminals, located in the United States, are using this network to run their organizations. That includes cartels, that includes human traffickers, that includes terrorists, are on this network.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: What was your takeaway from that conversation?
MILLER: I mean, it's interesting to see foreign government officials, intelligence sources tell me that you've got Chinese military officials communicating in this network, but you also have Mexican drug cartel people communicating in this network.
So, those are strange bedfellows, and it really begs the question, What's behind this? Is it set up by a nation state to gather different threat actors together? Is it run by a cartel? Is it hackers who are renting out space to different organized criminal activity? That's the part of the investigation that's still the intelligence gap.
COLLINS: Yes. John Miller, it is quite a story. Keep us updated, obviously, as you continue to cover this investigation, and what you learn here.
Also tonight, on another investigation that we've been following closely. Ryan Routh, the man who attempted to kill President Trump, at his Florida golf course, last year, after the first assassination attempt, was found guilty on all charges by a Florida jury today.
And there was a dramatic scene, inside the courtroom, as the verdict was read, when Ryan Routh tried to stab himself in the neck with a pen, in the moments afterward. Court martials intervened and stopped him.
And that comes after Ryan Routh represented himself at this federal trial, when prosecutors say that he created what was described as a sniper's nest, near that sixth green at the Trump International Golf Club, in Palm Beach, Florida. He never fired a shot at Trump, luckily, because he was spotted by the Secret Service. This was the second attempt on the President's life, during the 2024 campaign.
And after this guilty verdict today, Routh will be sentenced on December 18th. He is facing the possibility of life in prison.
Also tonight. Another fascination here, as the United Nations got underway. We talked about how the President lectured other nations. He also lectured the UN, after equipment was malfunctioning today, just as he was about to step on it.
[21:55:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: 10 years ago, it was the golden escalator at Trump Tower that launched Donald Trump's political career. But tonight, it's the escalator, at the United Nations, that is prompting calls from the White House, for an investigation, after it suddenly stopped working when President Trump got on it today.
You can see the moment right here, that comes right after the President, and the first lady, passed by us in the lobby, and were heading upstairs for his speech. The elevator -- escalator suddenly comes to a stop, followed by a couple of moments of confusion, and then they just decided to walk up the rest of the stairs.
Moments later, though, when the President stepped up to the podium, he let his displeasure be known.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: All I got from the United Nations was an escalator that on the way up stopped right in the middle. If the first lady wasn't in great shape, she would have fallen, but she's in great shape. We're both in good shape. We both stood.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: It went beyond those grievances in that speech, though.
[22:00:00]
Hours later, we heard from the press secretary, Karoline Leavitt, who questioned whether or not it was intentional. She posted an article in the British newspaper, The Times, that was published two days ago, and reported, quote, "To mark Trump's arrival, UN staff members have joked that they may turn off the escalators and elevators and simply tell him they ran out of money, so he has to walk up the stairs."
Tonight, the United Nations, though, is disputing that anything nefarious happened here. They issued a statement on the escalator incident and said, a videographer from the U.S. delegation may have inadvertently triggered the safety function, when he stepped on the escalator ahead of the President.
Thanks so much for joining us tonight. We'll see you back here, tomorrow night.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts now.
