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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
One Detainee Killed, Two Wounded At Dallas ICE Facility; Trump DOJ Retracts Letter That Implied Sandy Hook FBI Agent Was Under Investigation; Vance Downplays Trump's 180 On Ukraine: "It's Not A Shift." Aired 9-10p ET
Aired September 24, 2025 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: --looks like today, despite a permit from the National Park Service, allowing the sculpture to remain in place, until 08:00 p.m., Sunday. It was instead unceremoniously removed and destroyed at around 05:30 a.m., this morning.
In a statement to CNN, an Interior Department spokeswoman, Elizabeth Peace, said, quote, The statue was removed because it was not compliant with the permit issued.
An organizer behind the statue believes there may have been a discrepancy about the height.
That's it for us. The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Tonight, Homeland Security Secretary, Kristi Noem, is here, as we're learning new details tonight, on the deadly shooting that took place at an ICE facility in Texas today.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
Tonight, another burst of violence that has many people in this country shaken, after a sniper opened fire, on an immigration facility in Texas, killing one person and leaving two others in critical condition.
Officials say all three were detainees at that facility. They were in a government custody -- in government custody, at that facility, in Dallas, when this gunfire began. You can see the aftermath here, where there were bullet holes in a window and in a glass-framed American flag.
CNN has obtained a video from a woman who was waiting outside the facility, where you can hear the sporadic gunfire as it happens.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(GUNFIRE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (FOREIGN LANGUAGE).
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (FOREIGN LANGUAGE).
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COLLINS: Tonight, a CNN team, on the ground, spotted investigators, searching a car near the scene of the shooting. On the side of that car is a sign that displays a map of the United States, and it has these words written on it. Quote, Radioactive fallout from nuclear detonations have passed over these areas more than two times since 1951.
Obviously, that is something investigators are looking at, this evening, as the FBI Director, earlier, released these images of bullets, one where you can see here, has the words, Anti-ICE, written on it. And based on what we know so far, no members of law enforcement, thankfully, were injured in this shooting.
The shooter, our sources are telling us, was a 29-year-old man who then killed himself.
And we heard from the acting ICE Director, Todd Lyons, who said he was known to law enforcement before this shooting happened today, and that tonight, they're still digging into his connections.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TODD LYONS, ACTING ICE DIRECTOR: We're going to see over the next 24 hours, what FBI can do and figure out. Obviously, they're going to get with all his contacts, scrub his social media, maybe go to his parents' home or where he was living. But they want to drill down and figure out what made him anti-ICE, what made him want to do that, and see if there's any coconspirators.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My lead source tonight is the Secretary of Homeland Security, Kristi Noem.
And thank you, Secretary, for being here, because obviously I can imagine this was quite a traumatic day for everybody at that facility, including the families that were waiting outside.
What can you tell us, this evening, about the person who was killed, and those who were injured?
KRISTI NOEM, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: Well, Kaitlan, I don't think I have any new information for you.
The FBI is leading the investigation. We, of course, are partnering with Homeland Security Investigations, and the Dallas Police Department, and we're grateful for everybody's work on this case.
But we do know that this was an individual who took his own life, and that he fatally shot one of our victims, and then injured two others, and that there was many people, dozens of people, in that building that day. So, we're working to solve all of the unanswered questions, behind this case, and to get people answers as soon as possible, but also as we release information to make sure that it's accurate too.
COLLINS: Have you had a chance to be able to get in touch with the families of the person who was killed, the detainee who was killed, or those who were injured?
NOEM: That hasn't been given to me as information yet, because the FBI is leading this investigation. But have been involved from within five minutes after the shooting occurred, was immediately alerted by our Field Director there, and through our ICE leadership, and we've been engaged all day and making sure that we can get people as much assistance as they need, but also make sure that these law enforcement investigators have the ability to do the type of work that they need to do.
So, they're currently assessing the building. We know that there was bullet holes all over the building. It wasn't just targeted at one specific area or through a window that he showered the building with bullets. And was very much focused on hitting anyone that he could inside, and making sure that they were victims of his attack.
COLLINS: And you mentioned the information coming out, wanting to make sure it's all accurate. Just given that some of the information has changed, as we've learned more today, is your understanding, still this evening, that no ICE agents or law enforcement officials who were there, were shot or injured as a result of this?
[21:05:00]
NOEM: Yes, that's still what we believe to be true. And our law enforcement officers, we've contacted all of them, and they are safe and not injured at this time. Although, I would say, going through something like this is very traumatic for individuals. If you talk to anybody who's been in a violent situation like this, it changes you forever.
And this facility was a target about a month ago as well, with an attack. And we've seen these across the country. And it really is an opportunity for all of us to do what we can, to make sure that we're securing our facilities, securing our law enforcement officers, make sure that they're able to do their work and uphold the law, in a manner that allows them to go home safely to their families at night.
COLLINS: Yes, yes. Obviously concerns for their safety, for the safety of the detainees who were there, given the three people who were shot today were detainees.
The acting ICE Director said that the people who were in custody were not the intended targets of this shooting. I think some people might ask, Well, given it was detainees who were -- who were shot today, what that information is based on tonight?
NOEM: Well, we'll wait for the FBI to do their work. But we do know that the way that this building was covered in bullet holes, which was discovered, after the shooting happened, and after the immediate consequences that we saw.
When everybody started to do investigative work, we saw that literally, the building was showered with bullets. And when we saw the ammunition and how it was marked as well, I think that is helping investigators to find out what a motive might be and -- but we don't believe, from the pattern that we've seen, that there was a specific individual that the shooter was looking for.
COLLINS: OK. And the vehicle that was being investigated earlier, that I mentioned, with that sign on it? Do you know if that did belong to the shooter here?
NOEM: Yes, I can confirm that.
COLLINS: OK.
NOEM: I believe that they're investigating all vehicles that would be left around the facility. So, I don't have any information that would say they believe that that belongs to the shooter.
I think that they're truly examining any vehicle that is left parked there, recognizing that the shooter no longer is alive, and that he may have left a vehicle behind. And so, they're looking at every single one that may be sitting there, and has been there, over the last 24 hours.
COLLINS: And we heard earlier that this shooter, this 29-year-old man, was on the radar of law enforcement beforehand. Do you know why he was on their radar, what had he done, or what he was known for?
NOEM: You know, I can't speak to that in the case at this time. But I do know that those details will be released when it's appropriate.
COLLINS: Has anything else been revealed to you, in terms of the footage they've been able to see, in terms of him getting access to the rooftop, or anything, in terms of how he got there, and when?
NOEM: Nothing's been released to the public yet, although I do know that we'll be conducting those types of informational press conferences, interviews, letting people know as the case can be revealed. We want to make sure that we don't compromise it, but that we also focus on what we can do to prevent this from happening across the country.
We are strengthening all of our security, at all of our federal facilities and our detention and processing centers. We also are continuing to hire more and more law enforcement officers, and then make sure that we're educating the public, to go out there and to -- if you see something, say something. Let people know that if you think there is an individual, who may be wishing to do harm to someone in this country, let somebody know, but also make sure that we're engaging with our friends and our family.
This is a time for all of us to learn, and to also spend time together, and to make sure that we're having conversations rather than seeing warning signs and not acting on them before a tragic event, like this morning, happens again.
COLLINS: Yes, Secretary Noem, I noticed you're being very cautious in terms of what you're saying, and noting that you're waiting for these investigations to play out. I think anyone can appreciate that and why.
We did hear from the Vice President today, say it was a violent left- wing extremist who wrote this message on these bullets, the Anti-ICE message.
The President said, The continuing violence from Radical Left Terrorists, in the aftermath of Charlie Kirk's assassination, must be stopped.
Were either of those assessments, by the Vice President, or the President, based on information that the Department of Homeland Security provided to them?
NOEM: Well, we've seen a lot of patterns across this country, over the last several weeks and months, and we have been focused on making sure that our ICE officers have the ability to operate safely. In fact, they've seen a 1,000 percent increase in violent attacks against them, from city to city, and across this country.
And so, we know that we have an opportunity here, to make sure that we not only can support them, but also to have their backs when they're out there in many of these cities. And individuals and politicians, senators, governors, are demonizing them. That we have the opportunity to tell the truth about the work that they do, that what these law enforcement officers are doing, they're upholding the law.
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They're out there, literally, enforcing just the laws of this country, and doing it in a fair and balanced way that doesn't make sure that they're picking one person over another. They're treating everybody appropriately and making sure that the United States and our streets are cleaned up again, and that we are making--
COLLINS: Yes, I just--
NOEM: --this country safe, so--
(CROSSTALK)
COLLINS: I think the question is, do we know if those assessments, as they were putting it, talking about this suspect here, if that was based on evidence or intelligence from DHS?
NOEM: Well, the indication and the evidence that has been revealed to the public so far indicates that it is someone who was very much against our ICE officers and the work that they were doing, and opposed to what they were doing. Just opening up fire on an ICE processing facility, where they knew that law enforcement officers would be and individuals would be, gives us some indication as to how this individual felt about his beliefs, what he believed should be happening. And we will continue to dig into his background, and to see what may have motivated him, and learn from him, and see what we can do to prevent it in the future.
COLLINS: OK. But so the evidence so far, though. You know, we've seen the bullet casing that the FBI Director put out today. Obviously, the fact that this was an ICE facility. Has anything else been provided to the President and to the Vice President for what they said today, for their statements?
NOEM: Yes, I can't speak to what the President and Vice President were briefed on.
But people don't write Anti-ICE on ammunition, and then fire into a building that support the work that our law enforcement are doing. They just don't do that. That's not something that would indicate that they believe that what we're doing in this country is making our streets safer and cleaning up criminal activity. So, that evidence has been very clear.
And the President and Vice President certainly understand the challenges that we have in this country, with people who support criminal and terrorist activity.
COLLINS: Yes, and obviously, I've heard from the act -- or the Deputy ICE Director, earlier, saying the investigation is very much still ongoing. Obviously, we can all see those bullet casings for ourselves.
Can I ask you? Because you mentioned the comments that have been made, about ICE agents, throughout the country. This has been something that we've seen a lot of focus from the administration on today, and what's been said about ICE agents.
One thing that we've heard out of the West Wing recently was from a senior adviser to the President, Stephen Miller, calling Democrats, a domestic extremist organization. As the head of the Department of Homeland Security or the Homeland Security Secretary, would you agree with that characterization?
NOEM: Well, we certainly have seen Democrats out there take extreme positions, and support radical criminal organizations, their support of terrorists like -- such as MS-13 and Tren de Aragua, and seeing U.S. senators that go and have margaritas with them in a foreign country, to support them and their child trafficking and human trafficking exploits, I think is a tragic thing to experience in the United States--
COLLINS: Well Chris Van Hollen said that that was--
(CROSSTALK)
NOEM: --so absolutely--
COLLINS: --basically a setup by Bukele.
(CROSSTALK)
NOEM: He there (ph)--
COLLINS: But I just think the question is--
NOEM: --to deport.
COLLINS: --would you label them a domestic extremist organization, as Stephen Miller did?
(CROSSTALK)
NOEM: You know, I would love to see -- I would love to see these Democrats denounce these criminals, these individuals that are out there, trafficking drugs, and trafficking our children, raping our girls and boys and selling them, and people that are out there committing criminal acts, robbing and murdering individuals.
I haven't seen these Democrats do that, and they should. Gavin Newsom, should. Tim Walz, should. They should denounce these activities. Crockett. We should have all of them stand up and say, Enough is enough, American citizens deserve safety, and we're not going to stand behind any criminals and support them over our law enforcement officers.
COLLINS: But as the DHS Secretary, would you say that Democrats are a domestic extremist organization? Yes or no?
NOEM: Their -- views are extreme, and they don't align with the American people at all.
And I wish that our media, and I wish reporters like you, Kaitlan, would talk about the victims every day that we interact with, that we send you the stories on, that you refuse to tell, about the poor little girl and baby that was strangled yesterday, by an illegal criminal, and died. That baby died overnight. That was the first news I got this morning, when I got up at 04:00 a.m.
Then the next news that I got was that the media had reported that a father had his child taken away from him, when, in all reality, this poor, little autistic girl was abandoned by her father, who was a criminal--
COLLINS: But CNN didn't report that, right, Secretary Noem?
NOEM: You know what, Kaitlan? Just -- if you guys would just tell the truth, about what these criminals are, and what they've done and their history--
COLLINS: Yes, we -- we tell the truth, every night.
NOEM: --and make it about the victims -- that'd be fantastic. We send out about five or six different press releases, every day, correcting stories, and I'll send you the copies of the ones that you've gotten wrong that we've been able to correct.
[21:15:00]
But these law enforcement officers are being demonized. And they should be supported. Because they have families too. And they live in these communities. Their kids go to school there. Their spouses go to work, and they just want to--
COLLINS: Yes. And, of course--
(CROSSTALK)
NOEM: --make their community and their city safer.
COLLINS: Secretary Noem, as you know, if we get something wrong, we correct it. But also, what you just referenced there is not something that CNN reported. And obviously, we strive for accuracy every night.
Secretary Noem, I really appreciate you joining us tonight to offer an update on that investigation. Obviously, we'll continue to follow it closely and what DHS releases.
NOEM: Yes. Thank you, Kaitlan. Have a good night.
COLLINS: Thank you so much, Secretary Noem.
Also here, we're going to follow another story, very closely, as there are new developments tonight. The former FBI Director, James Comey, could soon be facing a federal indictment. The Justice Department only has days to decide whether or not to pursue those charges. Why and what's happening with the scramble inside DOJ. My legal sources are here next.
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[21:20:00]
COLLINS: We're following breaking news, here tonight, as sources tell CNN that federal prosecutors are preparing to seek an indictment against the former FBI Director, James Comey, just days after the President explicitly told them to do so.
This is the final decision that is going to come down to the President's handpicked federal prosecutor in Virginia. That's Lindsey Halligan, who you see here. She was actually just sworn into the job on Monday.
She previously was the President's personal attorney before he was reelected. Then she had a job working inside the West Wing, with the other attorneys there, before taking on this role, because Trump ousted the previous U.S. attorney who was overseeing the case that Trump had put in that position.
We still don't know tonight what the exact charges would be. We do know that office has been investigating whether or not Comey lied to Congress, in September of 2020, during a Russia investigation hearing. In it, he denied authorizing others at the FBI to leak information to the media.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX): What Mr. McCabe is saying and what you testified to this committee cannot both be true. One or the other is false. Who is telling the truth?
JAMES COMEY, FORMER FBI DIRECTOR: I just can only speak to my testimony. I stand by what -- the testimony you summarized that I gave in May of 2017.
CRUZ: So your testimony is you've never authorized anyone to leak. And Mr. McCabe, if he says contrary, is not telling the truth, is that correct?
COMEY: Again, I'm not going to characterize Andy's testimony. But mine is the same today.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: OK. That was 2020. This Tuesday, coming up is going to mark five years since that testimony, which means prosecutors have to decide by then whether or not they're going to try to bring the case to a federal grand jury. They're getting extraordinary pressure, from the President himself, to do so.
In a post, over the weekend, the President personally appealed to his Attorney General, Pam Bondi, calling Comey, quote, "Guilty as hell," before adding, We can't delay any longer, it's killing our reputation and credibility. They impeached me twice, and indicted me five times, over nothing. Justice must be served, now.
Message is quite clear.
My sources tonight are:
CNN's Evan Perez.
The former federal prosecutor, Elliot Williams.
And former Deputy Assistant Attorney General, Tom Dupree.
And Evan, I think the question really is, is, I mean, this seems to be a bit of a scramble inside DOJ--
EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yes.
COLLINS: --over what to do here and how to do what Trump wants so clearly.
PEREZ: Right, exactly. And the question is, how are they going to do this? We expect that an answer could come as soon as tomorrow, right? Because the days are counting down.
And so, the question is, do they go to the grand jury in Alexandria? Do they go to the one in Richmond? There's a couple of different courthouses that they could go to. If you're a federal prosecutor, sometimes you try to pick where you might get the best kind of jury, that would hear your case. And so, that's -- those are sort of the machinations going on, behind the scenes, at the Justice Department.
It certainly got a lot more complicated, though, with the President's message, over the weekend, because--
COLLINS: Which people thought was a DM, at some points, to Pam Bondi.
PEREZ: Right.
COLLINS: They were kind of confused over who it was even intended for.
PEREZ: Right, and I guess, the DM, he deleted it, right?
But the problem with it, obviously, is that even if you have a legitimate case against any one of those people, what it does is it colors it now, and it damages. And so, for prosecutors, it really does, really put them in a bind, because now the defense attorneys literally have their brief for malicious prosecution written to -- written for them by the President of the United States.
COLLINS: Yes, and I think the question is, even if Lindsey Halligan goes and moves forward with this and tries to do it, soon as tomorrow, maybe Tuesday, as late as Tuesday, we don't actually know that she'll get an indictment on this, right?
ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: She might not get an indictment. Now, the standard for getting an indictment is certainly much lower than the standard for convicting someone. You just need probable cause to get an indictment.
But, to Evan's point, there's a gray case being made here for malicious or selective prosecution. And what the defense attorneys would do is point to, number one, the President's statement right here in that tweet, saying, What about Comey? Literally, he names the man being investigated right there.
Number two, every statement the President has made, over the last several years, about Jim Comey, specifically, and the suggestion that he's engaged in wrongdoing.
Number three, I'd even add in firing Jim Comey's daughter from the Southern District of New York, as a prosecutor recently, as part of a pattern, sort of, of targeting Jim Comey, suggesting that even if there is some credibility to the charges against him, the Justice Department is singling him out for prosecution.
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COLLINS: And Tom, just to remind people, not that many people probably need reminding, how long Trump has wanted this.
When we interviewed Bill Barr, on this show, a year ago, maybe it was longer than that, he actually was talking about this conversation he had with Trump, before he was resigning from his position. I just want people to listen to Bill Barr in his own words.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILL BARR, FORMER ATTORNEY GENERAL: He was berating me, on a number of things. And I explained the various allegations of fraud, and that he was making, and why they were bogus.
And then, he started saying that he was disgusted with the fact, I didn't indict Comey, and others that he wanted to have indicted.
And I said, Look, I know you're disappointed in me. And if you want me to resign, I'm glad to resign.
And he hit the table, very hard, and said, Accepted.
So, I said, Fine, and I walked out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I mean, the Jeff Sessions vibes of the DOJ seem very strong right now.
TOM DUPREE, FORMER DEPUTY ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL: Yes, well, look, the Comey bee has been buzzing around the President's bonnet for a long, long time now.
And look, the fact is, is that Lindsey Halligan is going to be undergoing a bit of a baptism by fire. She doesn't come into this job with the same extensive prosecutorial resume that other United States Attorneys does. And she enters this job with a very specific instruction from her boss. He wants Jim Comey indicted. And so, we'll see what happens.
The first test, of course, is going to be the grand jury. But even if the grand jury indicts and the case goes forward, this is, at best, going to be a very long, very winding road to securing a conviction for Jim Comey.
Prosecutors will tell you, perjury cases aren't always the easiest cases to try and win, because you've got to show not just a misstatement or forgetful memory. You have to show intentional deception, a calculated lie. And that's going to be a challenge to prove in a court of law.
COLLINS: Evan, would a career prosecutor handle this case? Do we even know? I mean, Lindsey Halligan doesn't have experience as a prosecutor. If I'm -- if I remember correctly, she's an attorney. But do we know how this would even go, or who would want to take this case?
PEREZ: Well, that's going to be the challenge, right? I mean, it's certainly there are prosecutors there, who have raised concerns about some of the cases that the President has on his mind. And so, the question is, those prosecutors, if they don't want to do these cases, they don't have to. The Justice Department, the Attorney General, when she took office in January, did sign a memo, saying that you have to essentially do what we say to defend the interests of the United States. So, they could fire people who don't want to do this case.
But Halligan, we could end up seeing Halligan go to court to actually try to go to the grand jury to bring this case. That's where we're at, at this point.
And just to bring a finer point on this. What Bill Barr brought up to you really just goes to show you how far, how long this issue has been -- has been on their mind, right? If you look at those questions that Ted Cruz was asking, in 2020, they were -- they were trying to home in on this idea that Comey had lied. So, they've been after this for some time.
WILLIAMS: Right, just to go--
COLLINS: Yes.
WILLIAMS: --to go one slight step further than it may just be a bad idea to try the case. If a career attorney takes on the case, and they're arguing a matter that is not supported by law? That's potential ethical concerns--
PEREZ: Correct.
WILLIAMS: --with their license and violation of DOJ rules. So people ought to tread really carefully if there's a case that's not supported--
(CROSSTALK)
DUPREE: Well, and we've seen instances where very senior DOJ officials, surprisingly senior, have gone in, deposed witnesses, tried cases, signed pleadings. So, this very well could be a case, where the United States Attorney is in court, trying to prosecute this case.
COLLINS: That would be quite the situation.
Great to have all of your voices here tonight.
And speaking of the Justice Department. Another situation that has been roiling officials inside the department. One of the top officials, you see him here posing with Alex Jones, he just had to retract a letter, where he basically was threatening an investigation into an FBI agent, who was a first responder at the scene of the Sandy Hook massacre. Our exclusive reporting, with an exclusive source, next.
[21:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: I have new reporting tonight on a top Justice Department official, who was just ordered to retract a letter, basically threatening an investigation into a first responder from the Sandy Hook massacre.
Bill Aldenberg was an FBI agent, who was one of the first on the scene, that devastating day in 2012, when 20 first graders and six adults were murdered, at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut.
For years afterward, in addition to dealing with the grief and trauma of that day, Aldenberg and the victims' families were targets of Alex Jones' threats, harassment, lies, before ultimately winning a $1.4 billion judgment against the conspiracy theorist for his words.
Then, 12 days ago, a top Trump Justice Department official, Ed Martin, met with Alex Jones, who shared this picture and called it a very important meeting. So, imagine the reaction, when Alex Jones posted a photo, yesterday, of a letter, that was sent by Ed Martin, to the attorney for that FBI agent, just days after that meeting.
In the letter, Ed Martin suggests that Bill Aldenberg, the FBI agent, had financially benefited from the lawsuit. He ominously warned that there are criminal laws protecting the citizens from actions by government employees who may be acting for personal benefit.
But after swift internal backlash, sources tell us that the Deputy Attorney General, Todd Blanche, actually ordered Ed Martin to retract that letter that he had sent. He did so today, in a brief letter to the FBI agent's attorney, clarifying, there is no investigation underway at all.
[21:35:00]
Chris Mattei is the attorney who represents Bill Aldenberg, and he is my source tonight for an exclusive interview.
And thank you for being here, Chris.
Were you surprised when you got that letter from Ed Martin today?
CHRIS MATTEI, ATTORNEY FOR FBI AGENT WHO RESPONDED TO SANDY HOOK MASSACRE, ATTORNEY FOR RETIRED FBI AGENT WILLIAM ALDENBERG, ATTORNEY; RECEIVED RETRACTED LETTER FROM DOJ'S ED MARTIN, ATTORNEY, KOSKOFF KOSKOFF & BIEDER: The letter retracting it? I guess I was somewhat surprised, because I've seen a lot out of this Justice Department that has caused me concern.
But I was also quite grateful to be able to say publicly what I had known all along, which was that this was a complete illegitimate use of the Justice Department's power, that Bill was never under any investigation or inquiry for any wrongdoing at all.
In fact, he's a hero, and I'm happy that you mentioned that at the outset, Kaitlan. 23 years in the FBI, 13 years on SWAT, worked public corruption, violent crime, spotless record, and raced to Sandy Hook on the morning of the shooting, to save any children that he could, and was greeted by that horror, and then, like the families in the aftermath, accused of -- by Alex Jones of being a crisis actor. So, he's been through a lot. And to have the Justice Department turned on him, even temporarily, was extremely upsetting and shocking. But we're grateful that everybody now knows that this was just a corrupt use of the Justice Department by Alex Jones.
COLLINS: There are very few people, who could even imagine what Bill saw that day, and what those poor families went through, and not just grieving their children, but dealing with harassment by Alex Jones.
And Bill's testimony from that trial, I just, I want everyone to have a moment to listen to what he said there.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILL ALDENBERG, FBI AGENT, RESPONDED TO SANDY HOOK MASSACRE: Our senses were, I mean, that is like it -- it overwhelms your senses. I don't know, I don't know what I heard. I just know that what I saw. It overwhelms your senses. It's freaking horrible.
MATTEI: Were those children real?
ALDENBERG: It was awful. It was awful. It was awful.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I mean, it's hard to even listen to that.
Can I just first ask, how Bill is doing in all of this?
MATTEI: Bill is one of the most humble, understated, competent, steady people I've ever been around. So, like most people in this situation, his first thoughts probably go to his family. And whenever there's attention on Alex Jones, in connection with Sandy Hook, he feels for the families who he's gotten to know. So, you know, it's upsetting and it's disturbing.
But it's also a sign of desperation by Alex Jones. I mean, as you know, Alex Jones is in the midst of a winddown of Infowars, thanks to the bravery of the Sandy Hook families and Bill Aldenberg. It's nearly at the finish line, and Infowars will be no more. And so, we kind of saw this as a last gasp. And it's shocking that he had a willing accomplice in Ed Martin to kind of make the Justice Department a prop, in Alex Jones' effort to cast doubt on our litigation. But it's not going to be successful.
And Bill, like so many of our families, has just been quietly determined to see this through to the end.
COLLINS: Do you think it was Alex Jones who told Ed Martin to start this investigation or scrutiny, whatever you want to call it, into Bill? I mean, just the fight -- the fact that he has an audience with a top Trump Justice Department official, as you can see from this photo that we're showing here, I think is probably jarring to a lot of people.
MATTEI: Yes, it is -- it should be jarring. I mean, Alex Jones is somebody who has lied about not just Sandy Hook but innumerable things. For years, his listeners have been inspired to violence by him.
After the landmark verdict against him, Alex Jones needed to find some way to try and delegitimize what he had been exposed to be in the courtroom, and that was by latching on to the fact that Bill Aldenberg happened to be an FBI agent, so he made suggestions that our case was some sort of Deep State operation, instead of an act of agency by these survivors. And that's exactly what Ed Martin parroted in his letter to me.
So yes, there's no doubt that Alex Jones fed this to Ed Martin. There's also no doubt that there was never any legitimate inquiry into Bill. It was all an effort to get some sort of public basis to accuse Bill of something. It's really, it's really an obscene, obscene abuse of power.
COLLINS: Chris Mattei, thank you for taking the time to join us tonight.
MATTEI: Thank you.
COLLINS: And of course, we'll stay on top of that story, as it develops inside the Justice Department.
[21:40:00]
Also here tonight. We heard from the Vice President, JD Vance, today for his take on what we heard from President Trump's 180 on Russia, what officials say that what the President's ultimately trying to do here has to do with negotiating with Putin.
Fiona Hill is my next source, and she served as the President's top Russia adviser in his first term.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:45:00]
COLLINS: Tonight, the Vice President, JD Vance, was asked about his boss' abrupt 180 that we saw on the war in Ukraine, as the President now says he thinks Russia is a paper tiger, and that it is possible for Ukraine to win back all of its territory.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JD VANCE (R), U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: I believe the President is growing incredibly impatient with the Russians right now, because he doesn't feel like they're putting enough on the table to end the war.
He wants this war to end, and he's doing everything that he can to stop it. But look, if the Russians refuse to negotiate in good faith, I think it's going to be very, very bad for their country. That's what the President made clear. It's not a shift in position. It's an acknowledgment of the reality on the ground.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: One question is, what has dramatically changed on the ground in Ukraine?
One thing the world is trying to do is decipher what is behind the President's shift. We've heard from sources that he is trying to apply more pressure on Moscow to come to the negotiating table, and that the President is hoping to jumpstart the process of getting those two sides to a peace deal.
My source tonight served as the President's top Russia adviser on the National Security Council, during his first term in office. Fiona Hill is now a Senior Fellow at the Brookings Institution.
And it's great to have you here.
Because I think one question is, is just what's happened here, what's behind this shift? Given your expertise and your knowledge, what do you make of what's playing out, in the last 24 hours?
FIONA HILL, SENIOR FELLOW, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION, FORMER SR. DIR. FOR EUROPEAN & RUSSIAN AFFAIRS, NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL: Well, thanks for having me here, Kaitlan.
And look, I think in many respects, what JD Vance said is correct. The President's trying to shift his negotiating stance. But what he's doing, it's all verbal. This is all just rhetoric. This is shifting his viewpoints of Russia. He's being somewhat insulting towards Putin, and towards his conduct of the war, and about Russia's state of affairs as well. But that isn't really concrete evidence of any major shift, in terms of applying pressure towards Russia.
So far, all that the President's done, again, beyond the rhetoric, is also to then say that Europeans have to do more here, or that he's going to tariff India, for example, for buying Russian oil. He's -- there's no sign right now that he means to do something that would be decisive, as far as President Putin is concerned, about applying more pressure on Russia.
COLLINS: What could Trump do that would give you that, that sign of concrete evidence that his position has really changed?
HILL: Well, it would be really coming in with the kind of support that, again, he makes it rhetorical. I mean, he did say in his Truth Social post that Europe could buy more weapons to help support Ukraine, to provide for Ukraine on the battlefield. But at the same time, we hear that the United States is stockpiling weapons for its own use, of course.
We're not really seeing that the United States is promising to be there for Ukraine, along with the Europeans, for the duration of the conflict, to make it more difficult for Putin to move ahead on the front lines. I mean, all the time that President Trump has been engaging here, he's been much more deferential to Putin.
And I don't think Putin himself, frankly, thinks that this is much of a shift. This is just rhetorical. And if you actually look at what the Russians are saying about this, they're actually making fun of President Trump.
COLLINS: Well, we saw Lavrov -- Sergey Lavrov, he's the Russian Foreign Minister, meeting with Secretary of State Rubio today. When he was asked how the conversations were going, he just flashed a thumbs- up to reporters, after that 50-minute meeting.
I just wonder, if they're just laughing at this whole situation, what do you -- what are you watching for, next here?
HILL: Well, look, I think that we do have to watch closely what's going on inside of Russia. And this is where the President is accurate, and what Vice President Vance just said is also accurate.
Russia is not having an easy time of it. The casualty rate is staggering, in terms of people killed and grievously wounded on the battlefield. Their economy, everything is pretty much about the war now, which actually, frankly, makes it very difficult for them to be able to change tack themselves.
Putin is making it more and more difficult for himself to end this war, and digging the country deeper and deeper into a commitment to a long-term conflict, in which the grind -- this meat grinder that he's putting the population through, will eventually have an impact. But I have to say that, at this particular point--
COLLINS: Is there any chance that you--
HILL: Yes, go ahead, Kaitlan, sorry.
COLLINS: Well, can I just ask you? Because one thing, you know, some people have said it's a negotiating tactic by Trump. Others have said, Well, maybe he just wants to wash his hands of it and not have to deal with this anymore. Do you think that's part of this?
HILL: I do think that's part of it as well, and that's actually what I was going to say for Putin. He really thinks that everyone else is going to tire of this, and eventually he can fight to the last Ukrainian, and there will not be that sustained support for the Ukrainians' position from the United States, for sure, but also for Europe. So, Putin is betting that definitely Trump wants to wipe his hands of this, and also that the Europeans just won't have the staying power.
[21:50:00]
COLLINS: Fiona Hill, it is always great to have your expertise on this. So, thank you so much for joining us on this tonight. I really do appreciate it.
HILL: Thanks, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: Up next. CNN conversation's with Arnold Schwarzenegger about President Trump's second term, and also, what he said yesterday at the United Nations. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: The ratings are in tonight for the first new episode of "Jimmy Kimmel Live," since he was suspended and taken off air last week. That emotional return, last night, that so many people watched, averaged 6.3 million viewers from traditional TV. That's more than three times the show's typical audience. And that's despite two local broadcasting giants, Sinclair and Nexstar, preempting Kimmel's return from about a fifth of all ABC affiliates nationwide.
[21:55:00]
Also tonight, the former California governor, and the Hollywood legend, Arnold Schwarzenegger is weighing in on the pressure that Jimmy Kimmel was facing, and what President Trump has had to say about all of this.
Here's part of that exclusive interview he had with CNN's newest Anchor, Elex Michaelson.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ELEX MICHAELSON, CNN ANCHOR: We had the situation with Jimmy Kimmel, this sort of lack of trust, this fighting back and forth between both sides.
We saw President Trump say that he hates his enemies, which is the total opposite of everything that you've always been about.
How do you process this moment, and this concept of hating one's enemies?
ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER, ACTOR AND FORMER GOVERNOR OF CALIFORNIA: Look, I think, the way I do, and I find it very, very comforting that I'm a human being, and created this way, by the influence that other people had on me, to be very inclusive.
And when I see someone that disagrees with me, not to go and look at them suspiciously, or look at them like the enemy, but try to figure out and learn something from that person, Why do they feel that way?
I think that we are not enough listening to one another. We are just shouting at one another. God gave us two ears and only one mouth. So, we should listen twice as much than we talk. That's the bottom line. We are wasting our time, if we talk about and analyze Donald Trump here.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: And CNN's Elex Michaelson joins me now. His new show starts later this fall.
And first off, congrats, and glad to have you on our team.
MICHAELSON: Thank you.
COLLINS: We're so excited to have you here.
I just wonder, what did you make of the answer that you heard from the former Governor there?
MICHAELSON: Well, not all that surprising. As we know, Schwarzenegger and Trump have not been great friends for a while. But one thing that I was surprised with, that I learned during this interview, is that they used to be friends.
And back in 2016, Trump asked Schwarzenegger to endorse him, and he almost did. They talked about it. They were going through the potential logistics, and this issue of climate change was the deal- breaker for Schwarzenegger, because he said Trump believes it's a hoax. It's one of the causes of his life. And so, because of that, he couldn't endorse him, in 2016. And we know, he endorsed Kamala Harris, last time around.
COLLINS: Yes, and people may have noticed the former British Prime Minister, Tony Blair, sitting there. Obviously, you mentioned climate.
MICHAELSON: Right.
COLLINS: They're both in New York for an event to talk about the climate crisis in the world. Obviously, that comes after everything we heard from President Trump, yesterday, at the United Nations.
What did Tony Blair have to say about all of that?
MICHAELSON: Yes, Schwarzenegger and Blair's Institutes joining together for an event today.
And I asked him about President Trump's comments at the U.N. Here's what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MICHAELSON: What goes through your mind, when you hear what President Trump said?
TONY BLAIR, STATESPERSON AND FORMER PRIME MINISTER OF THE UNITED KINGDOM: Yes, but I just think we got to focus on what we can actually do. And if you -- you see, where I think we've been at risk in the climate argument is not in persuading people that there's a real problem, because I think most people accept, they can see that climate changing.
MICHAELSON: President Trump doesn't.
BLAIR: Well, the people--
MICHAELSON: Yes.
BLAIR: --are going to take different views of it. But one thing, I think, that's really important is to accept that a lot of the time we've been making this argument, on climate, we've not been making in a way that's likely to persuade people, right? So, the first thing is, by the way, you need to show people how if, for example, you're using energy more efficiently, you're also saving yourself money, right?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MICHAELSON: And Schwarzenegger says that we need to talk about it differently as well. Instead of using a phrase, climate change, that a lot of people can't understand, we should talk about pollution. He likes to say, Terminating pollution as the Terminator, because people can conceptualize that. And this is an issue both of them continue to work on.
Next week, Schwarzenegger is going to be at the Vatican, for a meeting with the Pope, trying to bring leaders from around the world, to tackle this issue. If the United States isn't going to be doing it, he wants to do it regardless.
COLLINS: Yes, I think that's interesting, if he's trying to get other world leaders to take a stand on this, or to lead the way on this, or even say, that Americans can deal with this, without necessarily turning to leadership for advice on how to chart the path forward here.
MICHAELSON: He likes to talk about the fact that 70 percent of climate action is taken by states and local leaders. It's not necessarily nationalities. And so, he's trying to empower everybody, get involved, don't be defeated by what he sees as inaction by the Trump administration, that everybody has a part, and everybody can do something.
COLLINS: Yes, and it's a striking comment to hear, just after that lengthy speech, yesterday, where Trump was calling it a con job, talking about all the cows being killed, obviously, comments that a lot of those world leaders in the room, you could kind of see their expressions as they were -- they were listening to that.
[22:00:00]
It's a fascinating interview, and Elex Michaelson, glad you're the one to do it. So, thank you so much for doing that, and for joining us tonight.
MICHAELSON: Thanks so much for having me. Thrilled to be a part of the team, and thrilled to learn from great journalists like you.
COLLINS: Much more to come, and I know our audience is looking forward to that.
Thank you all so much for joining us here tonight on THE SOURCE. We'll see you, back here, tomorrow night.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts right now though.
