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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Trump On Govt Shutdowns: "You Have To Do Layoffs"; Trump: Military Should Use U.S. Cities As "Training Grounds"; Government About To Shut Down As Votes Fail. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired September 30, 2025 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
HARRY ENTEN, CNN CHIEF DATA ANALYST: And, of course, on the Democratic side, that's very different from what we've historically seen in the polling, where Democrats say, we want compromise.
This time around, the polling and fact says that Democrats, in fact, want strong leaders, and they're split down the middle as to whether or not they want compromise or not.
JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: There might be an incentive, a perverse political incentive, for both sides, to keep this going.
Harry Enten, great to see you at night. I suspect, I will see you in the morning as well.
ENTEN: I think you may just see me in the morning.
BERMAN: All right. The news continues. The countdown continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts right now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: The U.S. government is less than three hours away from shutting down.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is a special edition of THE SOURCE from Capitol Hill tonight.
As we come on the air tonight from Capitol Hill, we are now three hours away from the federal government shutting down with no last- minute deal in sight. That means, if nothing changes in the next three hours, funding will lapse at 12:01 a.m., and many government services are going to stop functioning. It's an urgent situation.
And the House Speaker Mike Johnson is going to join me live in a moment with the latest on what's happening here on Capitol Hill.
And I'll also be joined this hour by Senators Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren as well.
And despite the late hour, as we come on the air tonight, party leaders aren't locked in any kind of late night, last minute negotiating session, as the President, over at the White House, has told people he is going to stay up to watch, as this midnight deadline approaches, as he spent the day promising, or threatening, depending on your point of view, a shutdown unlike any we've ever seen before.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Well, the Democrats want to shut it down. So when you shut it down, you have to do layoffs. So we'd be laying off a lot of people that are going to be very affected, and they're Democrats. They're going to be Democrats.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now, the last two government shutdowns that happened came during President Trump's first term in office. No jobs were eliminated during either of those.
But the last shutdown, which was also the longest in modern American history did cost the U.S. economy, a $11 billion. Still, twice today, President Trump made clear that if there is a shutdown, he sees an opportunity.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: So the last thing we want to do is shut it down. But a lot of good can come down from shutdowns. We can get rid of a lot of things that we didn't want, and they'd be Democrat things.
We can do things during the shutdown that are irreversible, that are bad for them and irreversible by them, like cutting vast numbers of people out, cutting things that they like, cutting programs that they like.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: What happens in the next three hours, and also the days ahead could depend, in large part, on my first source tonight. Republican Speaker of the House, Mike Johnson.
And thank you so much for being here.
Mr. Speaker, do you believe the government is going to shut down in three hours from now?
REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): I think it is inevitable now. It's a very reckless decision that Chuck Schumer has made. The Democrats have taken the last vote. Within the last few hours, they voted it down, once again. And so, there's no other option.
Now, it's important to note what they're doing here. They are throwing a fit. They're making partisan arguments. The House did its job. We sent to the Senate a clean CR. What that means? It's a very short stopgap funding measure, so that the appropriators in Congress, in both parties, can continue their work of doing the appropriations bills, 12 separate bills.
We've made a lot of progress in that. We just need a little more time. Because tonight is the end of the fiscal year. Chuck Schumer has refused to give the extra time. Why? Because we won't agree to restore health care to illegal aliens, because we won't agree to give a half a billion dollars back to the Corporation for Public Broadcasting.
He wants to cut the big fund of $50 billion that we set aside to support and prop up rural hospitals in America, because we won't agree to those partisan demands. And $1.5 trillion in new spending on a seven-week stopgap funding measure. He's decided to shut the government down. It's real pain for real Americans, and it's so frustrating.
COLLINS: So, I heard you make that first point at the White House yesterday, after the meeting y'all had with the President and with Chuck Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries. As you know, people who are here in the United States legally have never been eligible for the Obamacare subsidies for Medicare, for Medicaid.
JOHNSON: Yes.
COLLINS: So, what exactly are you saying that they're trying to do when you talk about giving free health care to them?
JOHNSON: I'm so glad you asked. OK. So when we passed the one big, beautiful bill, the Working Families Tax Cut, we had Medicaid reforms in the bill. You and I talked about it on the air.
What we did was to eliminate fraud, waste and abuse. There were a lot of people on the program, who were enrolled in the program, who were never eligible to be there. Medicaid is intended for eligible U.S. citizens, not illegal aliens, not also U.S. citizens who are able- bodied workers, like young men.
So, we passed the law. This President signed it into law. Democrats voted against it, of course. And it's been wildly successful.
[21:05:00]
The CBO, the Congressional Budget Office, which is the neutral arbiter of all these things, released a report, a few weeks ago, earlier this month, and they said, You know what? The bill has had its intended purpose.
Premiums are coming down, listen, because 2.3 million ineligible enrollees have been kicked off of Medicaid, which helps to save the program, prop it up, and a $185 billion has been saved already--
COLLINS: So basically--
JOHNSON: --in fraud, waste and abuse.
COLLINS: --what you did was narrow the eligibility for certain people to get access to the ACA subsidies. What they want to do is undo the changes that Republicans made in that. But basically, wouldn't that only affect people who do have legal status, people who are refugee seekers, here in the United States, asylum seekers here? JOHNSON: No -- those are two totally different issues. Now, they've created this as a new argument that they have, as to why they should not keep the government open. But they're arguing a December policy debate for a September funding issue. The subsidies--
COLLINS: No, no--
JOHNSON: --that you're talking about don't expire until the end of December.
COLLINS: No, we're -- no, no, no, those are--
JOHNSON: Right--
COLLINS: The subsidies for just everyday Americans, that's one thing that obviously has been the main premise of their argument. But you're saying they want to give free health care to people who are in the United States illegally. But the--
JOHNSON: That is exactly what the effect will be if--
COLLINS: But when I looked at it, there's a little nuance, because it's they want to undo changes that y'all made, narrowing who was eligible to get that.
JOHNSON: Yes.
COLLINS: Those are people who are refugee seekers, asylum seekers. They're not technically people, who are here illegally, just crossed the border.
JOHNSON: No, this is exactly what will happen. And Maxine Waters admitted, I think, accidentally today on the House steps, they want to give health care to everybody. That's--
COLLINS: But Maxine Waters is not in charge. She's not the one--
JOHNSON: Well, no. She's one of the senior leaders in the House. And you should--
COLLINS: --she didn't write this proposal, as the bill that Democrats are proposing.
JOHNSON: And everybody should Google it and read their counter proposal yourself.
COLLINS: But you see my point, right? You're making this argument that they want to just give health care to everyone who's here illegally. This is not for people who crossed the border and don't have paperwork. These are--
JOHNSON: No.
COLLINS: --people who have Temporary Protected Status, right?
JOHNSON: No. Absolutely what will happen, if that counter proposal was enacted is illegal aliens would be paid for. American taxpayers' hard- earned dollars would be paying for benefits for illegal aliens again. We're not doing that.
COLLINS: But it's against federal law for people who are here illegally--
JOHNSON: Yes, yes.
COLLINS: --to get health care.
JOHNSON: And that's why our reforms are so important to enforce all that. What the important thing to remember is what's happening tonight--
COLLINS: But I didn't see that in the Democratic proposal that people who are here illegally should get health care.
JOHNSON: No, because they don't have the level of specification that we had in our bill. It will unwind that, and all those things that the CBO just verified will be reversed. We can't afford to do that. The program has been--
COLLINS: But you see my point that there's nuance in the argument that you're making, right?
JOHNSON: No, I don't see your point. No. No. That is a red herring in this -- in this debate.
What they've decided to do tonight, with their vote, is to close the government. And what that means, everybody needs to understand, real pain for real Americans. What does that mean? It means women, infants and children, do not get their nutrition programs. That is not funded anymore.
Veterans don't get their health care services, suicide prevention and other very important things that are very timely. You have low-income persons who are Medicaid and Medicare recipients who are receiving care at home, those programs are now lapsed. They will not be funded.
COLLINS: Yes, you're making a point about what happens if the government shuts--
JOHNSON: You got troops not paid. TSA agents won't--
COLLINS: --shuts down.
JOHNSON: That's right, and they just decided to do it.
So the only question tonight is, how long will Chuck Schumer keep the government closed? It's a dangerous gambit. It's something that he himself said his entire political career would be dangerous and disastrous. Roll the tape. We're rolling the greatest hits on our social media platforms.
COLLINS: Yes, I'm just saying that the point about giving people who are here illegally, health care, is not exactly what is in their proposal.
JOHNSON: No, it is -- it is 100 percent what their proposal--
COLLINS: It's immigrants who have legal status--
JOHNSON: No, Kaitlan, you're wrong.
COLLINS: --and you're just disagreeing on who's eligible.
JOHNSON: No, I'm not.
COLLINS: I looked at it, actually, because I was curious about your argument, yesterday.
JOHNSON: You should study the CBO's analysis that they just put out a few weeks ago, and you should--
COLLINS: Yes, I saw that. But the 1.2 million people -- you're basically arguing about who has -- who has legal status, people who are seeking refugee or--
JOHNSON: No. No, I'm not.
COLLINS: --or seeking asylum.
JOHNSON: No, I'm making sure that -- we are making sure, and our provisions that we signed into law have ensured that health care benefits go only to eligible U.S. citizens. Chuck Schumer's proposal--
COLLINS: Right, as is federal law.
JOHNSON: Federal law was not being enforced. That's the whole point. We had to finetune that, so that we could strengthen the health care program. That's what we did.
COLLINS: On this premise of how long this shutdown could go on. The longest one was 35 days. You were a member, then. You were not the House Speaker, then.
JOHNSON: Yes.
COLLINS: How long do you believe this could go on?
JOHNSON: I hope it's very short, because real Americans are going to suffer. It's going to be a hardship for a lot of people.
And Chuck Schumer holds all the cards, because all he has to do is do what he's done, by the way, 13 times, during the previous four years of the Biden administration. 13 times, we avoided a shutdown. We were in the minority party, many of those times.
We voted and did the responsible, right thing to keep the government open. We're asking Chuck Schumer to do the same -- the same thing he's did his entire career. He's been here half my life. This is the first time ever he's wanted to shut it down, and I'll tell you why. Because Chuck Schumer is in a -- is in a political fight. He's fighting for his political life.
COLLINS: You're--
JOHNSON: The last time he did the responsible thing, the far-left came after him. AOC's going to challenge him in the Senate race--
COLLINS: Yes, he was criticized by a lot of his own members.
JOHNSON: Yes.
COLLINS: You're talking about how painful a government shutdown today -- could be.
Today, the President said that he thinks some good things could come from a government shutdown. What are the good things that would come from a shutdown?
JOHNSON: Well, the administration has to make some very tough choices. And they have to determine, at the Office of Management and Budget, what are essential services, what are the programs that should be prioritized, personnel decisions, policy decisions. They have just -- Chuck Schumer has just given the White House, unilateral authority, to make those permanent decisions, about programs that should survive and those that should be eliminated.
COLLINS: But--
JOHNSON: So, he's sort of walked into a partisan -- a political trap on that as well.
COLLINS: The President framed it as a good thing that could come out of this. You're saying it's a tough choice. That's not how he described it today.
[21:10:00]
JOHNSON: No, it's both. There are good things that could come out of it. If you eliminate wasteful programs that we otherwise would not get Democrat votes to do, that's a very good thing for the taxpayers.
But the harm that comes is from the people who need food assistance, medical assistance. FEMA won't be funded, by the way. We're in the middle of a hurricane season. If your health insurance -- or your flood insurance is lapsed, no new policies, no renewals. None of that can happen during a shutdown. It's real danger for real people. This is not a game.
COLLINS: Yes. Well, the President has previously talked about eliminating FEMA potentially, before this shutdown happened.
But can I ask you in terms of--
JOHNSON: He wants to reform FEMA, yes.
COLLINS: You're talking about the President could pick programs that they would basically stop, right, if this shutdown commences? JOHNSON: Yes, yes.
COLLINS: Has a president ever, during a government shutdown, eliminated programs just because there was a government shutdown?
JOHNSON: I'd have to go study the history of it. But I'll tell you, the government's never been so big and bloated as it is today. It's completely -- it's too large, it does too many things, and it does almost nothing well. There's a -- there's a lot of reform-minded people--
COLLINS: But does he have the authority to do that?
JOHNSON: --in the administration, who would like to streamline government, so would conservatives, so do all of us. Not in a way that disenfranchises or hurts anybody, but in a way that makes government work more efficiently and effectively for the people. That's what our legislation has done. That's what the big, beautiful bill was about.
COLLINS: But--
JOHNSON: And we'd love to continue that theme. And if Chuck Schumer wants to keep the government shut down, give the White House full authority to do that, some good things may come out of that indeed.
COLLINS: As a constitutional lawyer, do you think you would be OK if a government shutdown happened under President Biden, and he canceled programs unilaterally because of it?
JOHNSON: We didn't allow that to happen, because I'm more responsible than that. When the Republicans were in the minority, we delivered the votes to keep the government open, because we don't want to hurt the American people.
Chuck Schumer has made the decision, unilaterally. He's the leader of the Democrats, in the Senate. To keep the government shut down for his own personal reasons, it is extremely selfish and stunning to me that he is willing to do that.
There's no way out of the trap. We didn't put partisan provisions in the CR. We could have. I could have loaded that up, with all of our partisan policy preferences, but I didn't, because we're operating in good faith.
The reason we need, again, just the short-term extension to November 21st, is to allow the appropriators to do their job. They need more time to do it, in a bipartisan fashion, by the way. They agreed, Republicans and Democrats agreed, November 21st would be the appropriate day to extend it. That's all we're asking for, is time.
COLLINS: And some Democrats have argued, This is our moment to use our leverage, so we should use it.
It reminded me of something that now-Vice President JD Vance said, when he was a Senator, here on Capitol Hill.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JD VANCE (R), U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: Why shouldn't we be trying to force this government shutdown fight to get something out of it that's good for the American people?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Are they just using their leverage like a position that he once held?
JOHNSON: Well, unfortunately for Chuck Schumer, he doesn't have willing partners on the other side. There's no game to play here.
The White House, the President, and the Vice President, we were all in the Oval Office together, yesterday. Leader Thune, I, the Republican leadership in the Senate and the House, and the White House, are completely unified on this. There's no daylight between us.
We want to keep the government open to serve the people. Chuck Schumer and the Democrats have decided to close it. We'll see how long this standoff continues. But it's real people that get harmed in the process.
COLLINS: Leader Thune said earlier today that he's not going to negotiate until the government is back open. Is that your position as well with Hakeem Jeffries?
JOHNSON: Yes, look, there's plenty of time to debate these policy issues and extraneous matters. But you have to have the government open first. It's the first most important responsibility of Congress, to keep the government operating for the people, and the Democrats have decided not to do that.
COLLINS: But so is that your position, that unless the government is open, that you're not going to negotiate with them either?
JOHNSON: Yes, there's nothing to negotiate. There literally is nothing I can bring in, pull out of the CR, to make it better. It is a non- partisan CR that they've already voted for. Chuck Schumer already voted for this exact measure in March, and said at the time, it was the right thing to do. The only thing that changed between now and then is that he's in more political jeopardy, personally.
COLLINS: Well, and they've also argued because of the passage of the one big, beautiful bill. But can I ask you--
JOHNSON: Nonsense. Look at the facts.
COLLINS: That's the Democrats' argument.
Can I ask you. Earlier today, a Democrat came up to you, Congresswoman Madeleine Dean from Pennsylvania, and basically she said, described it as confronting you over a post by the President, last night, of Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer after y'all's meeting at the White House. She was asking you if you believed it was racist, and said that you should call it out. What is your description of what happened in that interaction?
JOHNSON: So, as I always do, I'm the Speaker of the House, so I represent Republicans and Democrats in that capacity, and I always hear complaints and concerns from members, and I always stop and hear that, and I did that from Madeleine Dean.
I respect her as an individual. We disagree on every policy matter. And she was concerned about a social media post from the President who he meant as a joke. And we talked about that. I told her I disagreed with her perspective on it.
[21:15:00]
But I tried to bring her back to the real issue. The fight tonight is not about social media posts. The fight is about whether they're going to keep the government open for the American people. And she's one that voted against that in the House. Quite literally, two weeks ago, when we pushed this measure through the House, the CR, the clean CR, she voted no. Every -- every Democrat in the House except one voted no. They voted to close the government. And I wanted my friend, Madeleine, to understand the importance of that.
She herself had said many times in the past that closing the government would be dangerous for the people. And suddenly, they've changed their tune, and I don't understand why.
COLLINS: One argument -- well, I mean, she was arguing that was a racist post.
One argument that we've also seen from Democrats is that House Republicans should be here, because House Democrats are here. Hakeem Jeffries has described it as they've been sent on vacation. Do you have any plans to bring them back anytime soon?
JOHNSON: Of course, everybody will be back next week. We have the Jewish High Holiday of Yom Kippur on Wednesday and Thursday. We were never intended or scheduled to be in session on those days. There's always honored holidays every year. So, Friday would really be the only day to do any legislative business.
But if the government's shut down, there's not a big point. There's not a lot of floor activity that can be had until we open the government again. So, the House has done its job. Everybody is homeworking in their districts right now. They'll be back next week, of course, and we'll see what happens.
I'm very hopeful that over the next few days, the Democrats in the Senate will come to their senses. Leader Thune is going to put the bill on the floor, repeatedly, and give them more and more chances.
You saw tonight, a couple of more Democrats peeled off. They don't want to be a part of this. They don't want to be blamed for the government shutdown. And I hope more of them come to their senses. I certainly hope and pray that that happens by early next week, and we can all get back to the people's business here. That's the plan. COLLINS: House Speaker, Mike Johnson, in your words, we will see what happens, and if we're here next week.
JOHNSON: Right.
COLLINS: Up next. We have a new guest who has warned against government shutdowns, one saying that everything must be done to prevent them. We'll hear from Senator Bernie Sanders, about what he thinks needs to be done with one, less than three hours away. That's next.
[21:20:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: And we're back with our breaking news coverage, here on Capitol Hill.
The federal government is hurtling towards a government shutdown. We'll see how many synonyms for that we can use tonight. This time, though, is the likes of which we have never seen before, as you just heard the House Speaker laying out what the White House plans.
This comes as the deadline to fund the government is just over two and a half hours away, this evening, as two Democratic senators and one Independent, who caucuses with the Democrats have just broken rank, and voted in favor of the Republican bill to keep the government open.
That is Democratic Senator Catherine Cortez Masto of Nevada, explaining her vote this way, tonight, by saying, quote, "I cannot support a costly shutdown that would hurt Nevada families and hand even more power to this reckless administration. We need a bipartisan solution to address this impending health care crisis, but we should not be swapping the pain of one group of Americans for another."
My source tonight is the Independent senator, Bernie Sanders of Vermont, who also caucuses with the Democrats.
And Senator, what do you make of your colleague's argument?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT): Well, she is entitled to have her opinion.
My own view, Kaitlan, is we're living in an unprecedented moment in American history. We're looking at more income and wealth inequality than we've ever had. We're looking at a situation, where we have a major housing crisis, major educational crisis. People in Vermont are going to the grocery store, they can't afford their food. And we have a health care system that is broken.
And for the first time in the modern history of this country, where in the Senate, you need 60 votes, that means bipartisanship, what the Republicans have said? Sorry, we are not going to deal with the opposition. We're going to do it alone. Here it is, you take it, or you leave it.
I will not take it, and I'll tell you why I will not take it. Just today, there was a report that came out from the Kaiser Family Foundation. This is what they said. 24 million Americans will see more than a doubling in their health care premiums. You know what that means? People in Vermont, and around the country, cannot afford health care right now. This is--
COLLINS: So they just won't have health care?
SANDERS: They won't have health care. And on top of that, what the Republicans did in Trump's big, beautiful bill is to throw 15 million Americans off of the health insurance they have.
Another study came out, University of Pennsylvania, Yale. You know what that is? They say that 50,000 Americans a year will die unnecessarily because they can't get to a doctor.
So instead of improving a broken health care system, these guys are making it far, far worse. So, I cannot sit back and allow a situation where tens of thousands of people in this country will actually die, in order for Trump and the Republicans to give a trillion dollars in tax breaks to the top 1 percent. That is insane. It's unacceptable. We cannot allow that to happen.
COLLINS: What's your response to Republicans, like House Speaker Mike Johnson and others, who say, The subsidies don't expire until the end of December, we have time to negotiate on those and we could find some common ground.
SANDERS: Well, first thought, common ground, really. They have had months, and for the first time in modern history, they have not sat down. What has always happened, it's a majority -- you know, He talks about how 13 occasions they worked with the Democrats. It's true, because the Democrats, in that case, sat down with them.
So, what you need is a bipartisan solution. But these guys have said, It's my way or the highway, this is the way it's going to be. And that is kind of what Trumpism is about. That's not -- authoritarian tendency that we're seeing in America right now.
COLLINS: So, are you telling me you're willing to vote no, every time Leader Thune brings this up?
SANDERS: Damn right. I am not going to allow. Let me be clear, all right? You can quote me on this. You can quote me on, as we say in Vermont, Till the cows come home, I will not let tens of thousands of fellow Americans die, because they're thrown off of health care.
In my state, people cannot afford a doubling in their health care premiums. We're already paying the highest prices in the country for health care. People just can't afford it.
[21:25:00]
And what the Republicans have got to do is go into their hearts and go back into their constituents'. Ask their constituents, in Louisiana, where Johnson is from, You think it's a good idea to give a trillion dollars in tax breaks to people like Bezos and Musk and Zuckerberg, the richest people in this country, in order to cut -- throw people off the health care they have? I think the answer will be a resounding no. So, I hope the Republicans develop a sense of morality, listen to the people of America, and do the right thing.
COLLINS: Back in 2018, when there was a shutdown looming over DREAMERs, people who qualified under DACA, and the funding for President Trump's border wall, you had talked about a government shutdown is a serious action, a dangerous action--
SANDERS: Yes.
COLLINS: --and you said, basically, you should do everything you can to prevent it.
SANDERS: Right. That's right.
COLLINS: So, is your argument tonight that fighting for extending these subsidies is worth shutting the government down?
SANDERS: What I'm saying, what I said then, is what I believe. No sane person wants to see a government shutdown. People are going to be hurt, and that bothers me very, very much. But if we allow the Republicans to simply not negotiate and to throw 15 million people off of health care and to double premiums for 20 million people? That will cause even more harm.
And by the way, on top of all of that, you have a president who today said to the military, Wouldn't it be a good idea if we could start practicing military exercises by invading cities in America? Who was threatening the media. So, you have a movement toward authoritarianism that we have to address as well.
This, Kaitlan, is a very difficult moment in the modern history of this country, I think, probably as dangerous as any time since the Civil War period. And I think what the American people are saying, We cannot -- this is not business as usual. We got to stand up. We got to fight back and create a government that works for all of us, not just Elon Musk and the billionaires.
COLLINS: One thing I've heard from the White House is that the Budget Director, Russ Vought, over there, is basically ready to go if the government is shut down, canceling programs they don't like, laying off federal workers.
Are you worried about that?
SANDERS: Yes, of course, I'm worried about that. But that's what they've been doing already. You remember when Musk was running DOGE, 83 -- We're going to throw out 83,000 employees who work for the Veterans Administration. And that's a very nice way to treat the men and women who are veterans of this country, who put their lives on the line to defend us, cutting Social Security positions. They're doing it already.
Trump -- give you one more example. You may have seen this, I'm sure you did. I think it was yesterday. Trump says, Well, you know, if Mr. Mamdani becomes the Mayor of New York City, well, you know what? I'm going to cut funding to New York City.
Well, that's great. You cut funding to any city, any state, that you don't like. Well, not only is that illegal, not only is that unconstitutional, it's outrageous. Everybody, every state in this country, contributes money into the federal budget. You can't pick and choose who you want to fund.
So, you have a president who happens not to believe in the rule of law. And our job is to rally the American people, who I think are very strongly on our side, and tell Trump and the Republicans, You know what? This government belongs to all of us, not just your billionaire oligarch friends.
COLLINS: And you're not worried you're handing him more power by having the government shutdown?
SANDERS: He hasn't -- I just told you. He's now telling us, with or without a shutdown, he may not fund New York City. May not fund Vermont. He doesn't like me, not fund Vermont.
COLLINS: You caucus with the Democrats. John Fetterman, a Democratic senator from Pennsylvania, said, If Democrats want to get what they want, they need to win elections to change policy. Do you agree with that?
SANDERS: Well, of course, winning elections is vital. And I, among others, we're working very hard in these 2026 elections.
And by the way, by the way, to be honest with you, I worry about whether or not the Republicans will accept defeat. If Democrats win a majority in the House, we will see whether they will accept defeat. And the things that I'm--
COLLINS: What do you mean by that?
SANDERS: OK, I'll tell you what I mean.
COLLINS: I've never heard you say that before.
SANDERS: Now I did. But this is what I worry about, when we move toward authoritarianism. All right, you're going to read that Republicans have, what, a three, four vote majority in the House?
So, you have a couple of Democrats win a few seats, and then you have a couple of seats which are pretty close. Do you think the Republicans necessarily go along with a recount and say, Well, she won the election, that's it. Well, maybe they'll say, No, we're going to take it to court. We think there are illegal, undocumented people who voted.
So bottom line here is, I worry about the growth of authoritarianism in this country, and I think you have a president who doesn't respect or even understand the Constitution.
COLLINS: Senator Bernie Sanders, on that ominous warning, thank you for your time tonight. SANDERS: Thank you very much.
COLLINS: And we'll see what happens here. Obviously, we know how Senator Sanders is going to vote.
And speaking of what he referenced there, that address that the President gave, an unusual one, to many and hundreds of U.S. military leaders today. The statement was, no more beards, the highest male standards, using dangerous U.S. cities as training grounds for the military. Those are just some of the lines we heard from the President, and also the Secretary of Defense today. What it means for the military? Right after this.
[21:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Hundreds of senior U.S. military leaders were the audience today, for an unprecedented lecture by the Secretary of Defense, Pete Hegseth, who had summoned generals and admirals, from across the globe to Quantico, with short notice, to deliver this message.
[21:35:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETE HEGSETH, UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF WAR: No more identity months, DEI offices, dudes in dresses. No more climate change worship. No more division, distraction or gender delusions. No more debris. As I've said before, and will say again, we are done with that shit.
This also means grooming standards. No more beards, long hair, superficial, individual expression. We're going to cut our hair, shave our beards, and adhere to standards.
We're empowering drill sergeants to instill healthy fear in new recruits, ensuring that future war fighters are forged. Yes, they can shark attack, they can toss bunks, they can swear, and yes, they can put their hands on recruits.
I don't want my son serving alongside troops who are out of shape, or in combat unit with females who can't meet the same combat arms physical standards as men.
Every designated combat arms position returns to the highest male standard only.
And I want to be very clear about this. This is not about preventing women from serving.
Physical standards must be high and gender-neutral. If women can make it? Excellent. If not? It is what it is. If that means no women qualify for some combat jobs? So be it. That is not the intent, but it could be the result. So be it.
(END VIDEO CLIP) COLLINS: The top military brass, in keeping with military standards, sat largely silently there, as the Secretary laid out his vision for the military, also at one point telling them, if they didn't agree with him, they could resign.
It was a quiet reception that President Trump himself noted, during his own address to them.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I've never walked into a room so silent before. This is very -- oh, don't laugh, don't laugh, you're not allowed to do that. You know what? Just have a good time.
I told Pete, we should use some of these dangerous cities as training grounds for our military, National Guard, but military, because we're going into Chicago very soon, that's a big city.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Joining me tonight is the Republican Congressman, Mike Turner of Ohio, a member of the House Armed Services Committee.
And it's great to have you here, sir. So, thank you for being with us.
REP. MIKE TURNER (R-OH): Thank you.
COLLINS: First off, what was your reaction to what you heard from Secretary Hegseth, and President Trump, to those military leaders today?
TURNER: Right, Kaitlan, thank you for having me.
And the part of the speech that you didn't play, which I think is probably the most important, which was the crux of really his message, is that he's returning the focus to peace through strength, and the fact that we really do have adversaries who mean us harm.
There was a period of time where the Department of Defense went through this whole concept of trying to evaluate, Do we even have adversaries? And now that he has bring -- brought the focus to that we do have adversaries, that our adversaries are aligning, that we have adversaries who mean us harm, that we're in a competition. And because we're in a competition, that really is critical, that we must have a strong military.
And he focused on the issue of, in that competition, we're going to have to do more. We need to have more military systems, more innovation, more munitions, more production. And that was really a crux that I think is going to be very important, as we go forward.
There was a period of time in my service, certainly on the Armed Services Committee, where we struggled in trying to get more things for our military. As the President has now called for the Golden Dome and more air defense. The debate today around the world of air defense is almost clear, where every country wants to have an air defense system.
COLLINS: Yes.
TURNER: But there was a time where even our country struggled with, is an air defense system provocative? We're sort of shields down, because we had a period where even as we looked at it, we thought, Well, we can't put up a system because it would show to our adversaries, that we're being provocative. But now, with this new, we have adversaries, we know that there's a competition, and we need to be able to defend ourselves. We're turning to, we need innovation--
COLLINS: Yes.
TURNER: --and we need production, we need investment in the military, we need a Golden Dome, we need our own air defense system.
We're going to see a new, stronger military, and that's going to be important for the defense of our country.
COLLINS: Yes, I think military readiness is a conversation that a lot of people in the military have said we should have. We've seen that at hearings that you've had on Capitol Hill.
Secretary Hegseth did say, though, that threats to the homeland, talk about that, or from China, was another speech for another day. That was a quote from him at one point during that speech.
And he did spend, to be fair, I listened to it a fair time in his speech, talking about male standards, and not having wokeness, and talking about the fact that rules of engagement were politically correct in his view. Did you agree with that argument?
TURNER: Well, it's a theme that he returns to frequently. I think, certainly, I think one thing that I personally found challenging, especially at my age, is when he said that hot yoga isn't considered PT.
[21:40:00]
But I do think his concept, and certainly he opened with it, he closed with it, is that we have adversaries. And those adversaries mean us harm. They're aligning today. We need to make certain our military is strong. We need to make certain that we're investing both in ourselves, personally, our troops, our military systems.
Our president, President Trump is even making certain our allies are even stronger today, where he's asking for NATO to do more. They're spending more. We're going to be spending more.
A stronger military means that our adversaries are going to know that it -- you know, they don't care what our military whether -- you know, what we're -- our military is doing on a day-to-day basis. They care, is it strong? Is it going to be a deterrent? And with that, we're going to make certain that our country is secure.
COLLINS: Some people took issue with the President saying his directive for Secretary Hegseth was that American cities should be used as training grounds for the military, for future wars.
Did you take issue with that?
TURNER: Well, the President and the manner in which he talks in his own motivational conversations, you know, I think in the application, I don't think he's actually meaning that our cities are going to be training grounds.
I do think, though, as he has talked about the issue of crime in our cities being an important issue, that it is an important issue, that on a day-to-day basis, we do understand that our cities need to be safer, that people are very concerned with the -- with what has happened on the issue of crime in our cities on a day-to-day basis. It's also a common theme that he turns to.
So, if you look at the two issues of national security and, of course, public safety, they certainly do are parallel issues.
COLLINS: Why do you think he didn't mean that? Because he said, this could be an issue for the people in this room, in terms of, he referenced very specific cities here, in the United States, mostly Democratic-led cities.
TURNER: Well, I think he doesn't mean it in the manner in which you said it. I think he certainly means that overall--
COLLINS: I was just quoting him.
TURNER: --he's raised it before in the issue of public safety, and he certainly has raised it before in that manner.
COLLINS: Yes, no, I'm just quoting him.
He said, What they've done to San Francisco, Chicago, New York, L.A., they're very unsafe places, and we're going to straighten them out one by one. And this is going to be a major part for some of the people in this room. That's a war too. It's a war from within.
TURNER: Right, it's a common theme of his, and it certainly is an important issue, and certainly for the people who live there.
I think, across the country, everybody understands, and it polls, I think, certainly, even if your viewers understand, that our cities have an issue of crime, and I think that is an issue that people know impacts our daily lives. It certainly impacts our economy and people daily. And I think the President has rightly identified that as important. And that certainly is equally important. Public safety and national security, safety are equally important issues. They impact our lives daily.
COLLINS: Congressman Mike Turner, I can tell you from here on Capitol Hill, it is going to be a busy week, likely, for y'all coming up, based on what the House Speaker said.
TURNER: It is.
COLLINS: Thanks for joining us tonight.
TURNER: Thank you.
COLLINS: And up next. The White House tonight, ahead of this evening's shutdown, which I should note, I was told President Trump is going to be waiting for that midnight deadline, they're already working on their messaging for the government shutdown.
We'll give you a preview of what you should expect to hear from the White House, right after this.
[21:45:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: We're back on Capitol Hill tonight, as we are inching closer to a government shutdown.
Tonight, the White House is making clear what their messaging is going to look like, once this funding deadline lapses at midnight.
Take a look at what was playing in the Briefing Room of the White House, as I was leaving campus this afternoon. Past comments from Democrats, including my next guest tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): If the government shuts down, it will be average Americans who suffer most.
SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR (D-MN): Critical services and our economy are being threatened with poison pill partisanship. Shutting down the government should not be a negotiating tactic.
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D-MA): Hostage-taking is all they have left. A last gasp of those who cannot cope with the realities of our democracy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: And that last voice you heard there, Democratic Senator of Massachusetts, Elizabeth Warren, is here now.
What do you make of the White House using your past comments on government shutdowns?
WARREN: They can actually use them right now, recycle them, because hostage-taking is exactly what Donald Trump is up to. He has said that if the Democrats don't fall in line, and do whatever it is the Republicans want, he's going to fire thousands of workers, all across this country, that he can inflict even more pain on the American people.
Let's just back up for a minute, and remember what this fight is about. A year ago, Donald Trump, as a candidate, was out there saying, every single day, he would lower costs for American families on day one, on day one. Those were Donald Trump's words.
You may remember that after he got elected, the very first interview he gave, the reporter asked him, And why did you win? And he said, Because I promised to lower prices on day one.
Well, here we are. What is it, day 250? And the price of groceries is up. The price of utilities is up. The price of housing is up. The price of school shoes is up.
But the big one that the Republicans really can profoundly affect is they've passed a law, in July, to shoot the price of health care through the roof, throw 15 million people off their health care coverage, and drive up the cost of those insurance premiums for pretty much everybody in the whole country.
[21:50:00]
So, the Democrats have this one little sliver, right now, when we've got some leverage here. And we are using it, not to say, Spend more money on health care, not to say, We have this long list.
Just to say this one thing: Roll back the cuts that you're making to health care that are going to push seniors out of nursing homes, that are going to take away health care from little, tiny babies and their mamas, that it's going to take away the wheelchair from your neighbor with a disability, that's going to drive up the cost of health care in families all over this country.
COLLINS: And their argument on the reverse is they just want to keep the government open, and Democrats are trying to undo a bill that they've passed, while also extend the health care subsidies that don't expire until the end of December.
And what Mike Johnson was saying earlier is you have time to talk about those subsidies, and you don't need to shut the government down on that.
WARREN: So, let me just be real clear. They passed those cuts back in July. And Democrats have been asking, Can we talk about those cuts? Can we reshape this in a way that doesn't hurt so many American families?
COLLINS: But why do you think they want to undo the cuts they just passed, might be the arguments somebody would ask.
WARREN: Well, remember, they passed it on a bi -- on a partisan basis. Only Republicans voted for it. Every single Republican said, Yes, I want to drive up health care costs, so that they could give away a trillion dollars in tax bonuses to a handful of billionaires and billionaire corporations.
And Democrats have been saying -- they shut us out of the process and we had no power to get in. So Democrats have been saying since July, Let's negotiate this.
And now what they're saying is, No, no, no, we want you to give up this little opportunity that you've got here, and maybe some point down the line, we will talk about health care for the American people.
I just want to say, if fighting to reduce the cost of health care and avoid a coming catastrophe is not worth fighting for? Then I don't know what is.
COLLINS: So, do you believe your colleagues, including Catherine Cortez Masto, who voted yes, that they're giving up their leverage?
WARREN: Look, I believe that the Democrats were sticking together, enough of us, to say, We have got to have those cuts rolled back. The American people simply cannot stand to see their insurance premiums doubled. They cannot stand to watch 15 million of their neighbors lose their health care coverage, and they cannot stand to watch rural hospitals close, to watch community health centers close, to watch some doctors practices just say, We can't do this anymore.
COLLINS: And do you believe it's worth shutting the government down over that?
WARREN: But -- what I believe is worth doing is getting in the fight to protect health care for the American people. Sometimes you've just got to stop and fight.
Because what's on the line here is what Donald Trump promised a year ago, but he's gone in exactly the opposite direction. Instead, he's gone with tariffs that have driven up costs for people. He's done giveaways to billionaire corporations. But for American families, the price of just making it to the end of the month has gone up and up and up. We are using the leverage we have to fight for the American people.
COLLINS: The question is, once this deadline hits tonight, at midnight, and I think we all believe it's going to hit, I didn't hear any solutions from Speaker Johnson when he was here already--
WARREN: Well, keep in mind, the House isn't even here.
COLLINS: House Republicans aren't here.
WARREN: So the Republicans set up a shutdown, goodness, what, a week ago, when Mike Johnson just announced he wasn't even going to bring the House back.
COLLINS: Yes, and he said -- he said, they'll be back next week, when we asked him when he plans on bringing them back.
But I think the question is, if you're looking at this, and you're hearing your -- Democrats' position and Republicans' position is, Government shuts down, a lot of people, Americans, are left in the middle of that.
How do you get out of a government shutdown? You just expect the Republicans to either meet you halfway on subsidies--
WARREN: Well--
COLLINS: --undo the Medicaid cuts?
WARREN: Look, we're not asking to spend a new dollar. We're just asking to roll back some of those cuts. We're asking them to have the funding again, for the National Institutes of Health, on behalf of people who are waiting for a cure for cancer, or for Alzheimer's.
COLLINS: What's your response to Speaker Johnson saying that -- which we just talked to him about, that Democrats want to give people who are here in the United States, illegally, health care, with the demands that you're making here?
WARREN: It's a lie. I mean, federal law is already perfectly clear. There is no one who is here, who is undocumented, who has access to Medicaid or to Affordable Care Act subsidies. He just lies.
And the reason that he is lying about this is because no one on the Republican side wants to face what they have done. And that is, they are taking away health care for millions of Americans and driving up the costs for every other American.
[21:55:00]
And even if you're not someone who is directly touched? When they close the hospital near you, or when they close the community health center? It will affect everyone. Not just the people who were on Medicaid or the people who were getting ACA. It's going to touch everyone.
This is a righteous fight, because this is our chance to try to negotiate with the Republicans. Donald Trump has said, Don't even talk to the Democrats. We're saying, You have to talk to us. We want to fight for the American people.
COLLINS: And are you willing to vote no, every time Leader Thune puts this on the floor?
WARREN: Look, if they're not going to sit down and negotiate with us, I'm here to fight for the American people. I am here to fight to lower costs. And we can start with health care.
COLLINS: Senator Elizabeth Warren, thank you for joining us here, on Capitol Hill tonight.
WARREN: Thank you.
COLLINS: We might be back here, tomorrow night--
WARREN: We may.
COLLINS: --and in future weeks.
And we'll be right back with a new check-in here on Capitol Hill.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:00:00] COLLINS: It appears as if we are here for a long night in Washington. I'm actually going to be back with you, live here, from Capitol Hill, at 11:00 p.m. Eastern, where I'll join Laura Coates, with more of our special coverage, as a shutdown deadline is fast approaching.
Thanks so much for joining us now.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" is up next.
