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The Source with Kaitlan Collins

Government Shutdown To Last Through At Least Friday; White House Freezes $18 Billion In NYC Infrastructure Funding; Top Trump Adviser: Epstein Was "Greatest Blackmailer" Ever. Aired 9-10p ET

Aired October 01, 2025 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[21:00:00]

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: --all right. Wow.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Enjoy, guys. All right?

COOPER: Cheers. Thank you.

TONY SHALHOUB, AMERICAN ACTOR: Thanks, Stephan (ph).

COOPER: See? I mean, I could do shots of that all day. That's really good.

SHALHOUB: Super smooth.

COOPER: It's really smooth. Who knew? Olive oil shots.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: "Tony Shalhoub Breaking Bread" premieres this Sunday, at 09:00 p.m. Eastern Time, right here on CNN.

I'll be back in the morning. In the meantime, the news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: We are now more than 20 hours since the government shutdown, and neither side shows any signs of backing down.

I'm Kaitlan Collins on Capitol Hill. And this is THE SOURCE.

And good evening from Capitol Hill tonight, where the government is going to stay shut down until at least Friday. As you look at the rotunda behind me, keep in mind that right now, neither chamber is in session, meaning that tonight, there remains no clear path out of this government shutdown.

Right now, no negotiations that we know of, between party leaders and the White House, are underway, as the ripple effects of this shutdown are now starting to be felt across government agencies, here in Washington. President Trump has promised that Democrats will feel the pain of this shutdown, and he seems intent on maximizing that pain.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DANIEL BALDWIN, CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, ONE AMERICA NEWS NETWORK: There is an OMB memo going around, suggesting that there might be firings during the shutdown. Do you think that will happen if the shutdown goes for a little bit of time, sir?

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Well, there could be firings, and that's their fault. And it could also be other things. I mean, we could cut projects that they wanted, favorite projects, and they'd be permanently cut.

So, you could say -- a lot of people are saying, Trump wanted this, that, I wanted this closing. And I didn't want it. But a lot of people are saying it because I'm allowed to cut things that should have never been approved in the first place. And I will probably do that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: And speaking of cuts, some $26 billion already approved by Congress was blocked, at least for now, by the administration. That money was headed for these states, all of them happened to vote against Trump in 2016, 2020, and 2024. It's a move unlike anything we've seen in any of the 14 previous government shutdowns that have happened since 1981.

And in the meantime, this comes as the Democratic Leader of the House, Hakeem Jeffries says that he hasn't heard from the White House, since that meeting they had with Chuck Schumer, John Thune and Speaker Johnson on Monday.

But he did respond to those AI videos that were being played on a loop, inside the Briefing Room today, which the Vice President defended as amusing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JD VANCE (R), U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: Oh, I think it's funny. The President's joking.

And I'll tell Hakeem Jeffries right now, I make this solemn promise to you that if you help us reopen the government, the sombrero memes will stop.

Hakeem Jeffries said it was racist. And I know that he said that, and I honestly don't even know what that means. Like, is he a Mexican- American that is offended by having a sombrero meme?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: On that note, my lead source tonight is the Democratic senator of Minnesota, Senator Tina Smith is here with me.

And just, can I just first get you to respond to what we heard from the Vice President today, about these memes? Do you find them amusing?

SEN. TINA SMITH (D-MN): I just think it's so childish and insulting. And isn't this what bullies always do? They make fun of you, they ridicule you, they use that as a form of intimidation. And then when you call them on it, they say, Oh, I was just joking, can't you take a joke? I mean, I've heard that a lot of times myself. I think it's ridiculous. And of course, if you're trying to build trust, because you want to actually figure out how to negotiate to come to an agreement, this is exactly the wrong thing to do.

COLLINS: So you think it shows they're not taking the negotiations seriously?

SMITH: I mean, that's how I read it.

And understand what's going on here. Republicans shut down the federal government, because they refused to negotiate with Democrats, about how -- what we can do to stop this skyrocketing health insurance premiums that is happening. It's not just happening to Democrats. It's happening to Republicans. It's happening in every state in the country.

So, that's a real problem that needs to be solved right now, and all we want to do is to, like, actually have a serious conversation about what we can do to protect Americans from these rising costs.

COLLINS: And they keep arguing, at the White House, that the subsidies don't expire until the end of December, that there is time to negotiate on that, Democrats should just relinquish and vote yes on this.

How firm are you in your no-vote? Or are you considering voting yes at any point?

SMITH: Well, so first, I would say this shows that they actually have no idea how things run in this country.

[21:05:00]

Today, in Minnesota, the insurance premium increases were published for the first time, so people are just getting an eye on what it is. That's going to -- that started today. Half -- I mean, excuse me -- double the insurance premiums that people are going to be paying in Minnesota. That is a big bite. It's $2,000 a year on average.

So, Minnesotans are processing that information right now, and they're going to have to start signing up for insurance in basically less than a month. So, we need to solve this problem now, or there's going to be massive chaos.

And what will happen is people will look at those price increases, and they'll go like, I can't afford that, and they'll just opt out of the whole system. And that's how people lose health insurance, and that's how we end up with skyrocketing costs for the whole system.

COLLINS: So, that's the main thing Democrats are pushing for here. The White House has not -- they've said, Open the government, and then we can negotiate on that.

SMITH: Yes.

COLLINS: At some point, someone will have to blink, Democrats or Republicans. The question is, who is it going to be?

SMITH: Well, I'm committed to fighting to make sure that I'm protecting my constituents as best I can from these cost increases.

And it was interesting, on the Senate floor today, you could see a lot of Democrats and Republicans, just sort of rank-and-file members, trying to figure out a solution, because those Senate Republicans know this is bad for their state. They know that they're going to end up getting blamed, when people have to pay for these massive premium increases on their health insurance.

And I think there's actually a will to solve this problem. But the question is, does the Speaker and does the President agree with that? Are they ready to come to the table and try to find in an agreement?

COLLINS: And is Chuck Schumer aware of those conversations that rank- and-file members are having--

SMITH: Oh, absolutely.

COLLINS: --both Democrats and Republicans?

SMITH: Yes, absolutely.

COLLINS: Can I ask you? Your colleague from Nevada, Senator Catherine Cortez Masto, basically said the reason she couldn't vote -- that she voted yes, yesterday, and couldn't vote no with most of her Democratic colleagues, is because, I don't see the point in engaging in a shutdown that's, quote, Going to harm people, to help people.

Basically, you're trying to help people who are going to pay more insurance premiums, where you're hurting people who are caught in this government shutdown. Does she have a point?

SMITH: Well, I think that she is thinking about what she can do to take care of her constituents in the best way that she can. And I respect that. I just think she's not right about this.

I think that this is a moment, where we have to really fight. We have to prove that we have some willingness to go to the mat on this, or we're never going to get traction, and we're never going to be able to get the Republicans to say, OK, yes, we have to negotiate with the Democrats if we want to get done what we want to get done.

So, to me, this is the moment where we have the maximum ability. We may not be in power, but we're not powerless to shape the outcome. And the need to get after these skyrocketing insurance premiums is just to me, that's the greatest issue that Minnesotans and Americans are facing right now.

COLLINS: But shutting the government down doesn't change anyone's health insurance premiums, as you know.

Do you believe this is the best way to get the attention of the administration? Do you not believe that you could engage with them if the government was open and still say, Hey, your voters are going to pay more in insurance premiums as well?

SMITH: Well, I mean, what has been going on for the last eight, nine months? We passed a continuing resolution, I didn't vote for it, in March. And what's happened since then? They passed the so-called big, beautiful bill that took health insurance away from literally millions of Americans. The President has unilaterally taken funding away, that Congress, in a bipartisan way, approved.

I mean, they've shown -- you know, show me some evidence that they're willing to negotiate with us and get something done. And that's what I think we're looking for right now. Show me that you are actually serious about doing this. Don't just tell me you're going to, Oh, we'll get to that later, which is not very persuasive.

COLLINS: And do you trust Senator Schumer's leadership on this?

SMITH: I do trust Chuck's leadership on this. I think he's been very strong. I think the caucus is almost completely united around him, and we all feel like this is a very important moment to really, really be fighting for something that's going to make a big difference to our constituents.

COLLINS: Senator Tina Smith, thank you for joining us on Capitol Hill. We'll see how long this goes on tonight.

SMITH: Thank you.

COLLINS: And also here with me is an experienced pair of political power players. Scott Jennings and Karen Finney are here.

And Scott, one thing that people have been reminding me of today is what President Trump himself used to say before he was President, about what happens when there is a government shutdown.

Listen to him in his own words.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I hear the Democrats are going to be blamed and the Republicans are going to be blamed. I actually think the president would be blamed. If there is a shutdown, and it's not going to be a horrible shutdown because, as you know, things will sort of keep rolling--

MEREDITH VIEIRA, AMERICAN BROADCASTER: Well, it was a partial shutdown. Right.

TRUMP: But if there is a shutdown, I think it would be a tremendously negative mark on the President of the United States. He's the one that has to get people together.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who's going to bear the brunt of the responsibility if indeed there is a -- is shutdown of our government?

TRUMP: Well, if you say who gets fired, it always has to be the top. I mean, problems start from the top, and they have to get solved from the top. And the President's the leader, and he's got to get everybody in a room, and he's got to lead.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[21:10:00]

COLLINS: Scott, what do you make of those comments, given what the White House is arguing today?

SCOTT JENNINGS, FORMER SR. ADVISER TO SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL, FORMER SPECIAL ASST. TO PRES. GEORGE W. BUSH, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, the President did try to bring them into the room, the other day, and they wouldn't budge.

I mean, look, the facts here are pretty simple. The Republican Party has put on the floor and voted for a clean continuing resolution, no changes. These are Biden budget numbers, by the way, and numbers that Democrats have voted for, 13 times.

Nothing up our sleeves here, Kaitlan. They're trying to keep the government open, long enough to negotiate things like the health care issue, which you were just debating, which I actually think maybe Republicans will wind up dealing on that. But they're not going to do it under duress, and they're not going to do it under threat of rolling back all the Medicaid reforms that were done this, summer.

So, I think President Trump tried to bring the Democrats in. And at the end of the day, I think the American people know here, they're looking at two parties. One's trying to do a bunch of funny business. One's trying to keep the doors open. And right now, I don't think the funny business side is winning in the eyes of the American people.

COLLINS: Karen, what's your view on that?

KAREN FINNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER SR. ADVISER, 2016 CLINTON CAMPAIGN, FORMER COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR, DNC: Well, I just want to correct something. Scott, you know how much I respect you, but let's be honest here. The CRs--

JENNINGS: I don't need to be corrected, and I don't -- and I don't need to be told I'm dishonest, Karen. But God -- but by all means, go ahead.

FINNEY: I didn't say. I said, let's be honest with the American people here, so.

JENNINGS: I am.

FINNEY: Well, the CR that--

JENNINGS: You ought to try it.

FINNEY: I'm doing it right now, brother.

So, the CR is that the Republicans have proposed is actually not clean. It's pretty dirty, because it includes the $1 trillion in Medicaid cuts that the American people themselves have made clear they do not like. So, it is not the same.

I think it'd be a very different moment in conversation if literally, we were talking about what was passed in 2024. That is not the actual fact of the case. The fact of the case is that the measure is something that, again, the American people themselves have said they do not like.

The other piece of this is, I mean, I think Democrats have a clear, concise message in terms of health care. I mean, think about this. Republicans are on the side of saying, We have to protect these tax cuts for billionaires that's going to impact the wealthiest 1 percent. Democrats are saying, We want to protect health care for over 20 million American families.

And I agree with what -- you know, I was glad Senator Smith pointed out. I also just got my email today about my health care and choosing a plan. So, people are already seeing that their costs are going to go up, starting in January 2026.

So, I think Democrats feel pretty strong about this, because the politics have changed.

And the last thing I would just say on this. My first government shutdown -- I mean, Scott, I know you've been through a few of them too -- was new -- Clinton administration. And the kind of back- slapping, Oh, we're just joking, that we heard from the Vice President today? Well, we heard that from Newt Gingrich, and he was bracing for the fight. And we all know how that worked out.

I don't think the American people like seeing the President make light of their health care or their jobs.

COLLINS: Scott, you want to respond?

JENNINGS: Yes, sure, look, I mean, we are stunned. I'll just be honest with you, we're stunned. I mean, the Democratic constituent -- constituencies are principally immigration populations and government workers. And right now, you're putting -- you're putting--

FINNEY: Oh, I'm a Democrat. And I'm not an immigrant, and I'm not a government worker, Scott.

JENNINGS: --you're putting -- you're putting one on top--

FINNEY: So, correct yourself.

JENNINGS: You're putting one on top of the other. You're closing -- your party--

FINNEY: My mother is a Democrat. She's not an immigrant. She's not a government worker. JENNINGS: This is what your party relies on. And you've closed shop on government--

FINNEY: That's a lie, and you know it.

JENNINGS: --on government in Washington, D.C. And eventually, they're going to get tired of it. There is no reason this government cannot be left open.

FINNEY: So, you're saying that 75 million Americans who voted for Kamala Harris were all immigrants?

JENNINGS: No, I'm saying--

FINNEY: That's not true.

JENNINGS: --I'm saying, I'm listening to Democratic arguments about most policy issues, and I'm looking at Democratic energy, and it mostly has to do with things to do with immigrants, illegal and some legal, and things to do with government bureaucrats. And right now, you're putting--

COLLINS: Yes, but--

JENNINGS: --one of your constituencies out of business.

COLLINS: Can I say one thing, which is that people who are in the country illegally cannot get these subsidies that we're talking about.

FINNEY: Correct.

JENNINGS: Sure they can. Sure they can.

FINNEY: No, they can't.

COLLINS: No, they can't. It's--

JENNINGS: Sure they can. When they--

FINNEY: They can't.

COLLINS: It's federal law, Scott, as you know.

JENNINGS: Who -- who do you think--

COLLINS: But--

FINNEY: --Scott.

JENNINGS: --who do you think pays when they go to the emergency room? It's the Medicaid emergency program.

COLLINS: Scott, going to the emergency room is not getting an Obamacare subsidy. And the emergency room is not health care, Scott.

JENNINGS: You guys are conflating. You guys are conflating these issues.

FINNEY: No, we're not, Scott.

JENNINGS: You're conflating these issues.

FINNEY: You're conflating, and you're being dishonest with the American people about this.

JENNINGS: The subsidies are a separate issue.

FINNEY: Because you know it's unpopular.

JENNINGS: The Medicaid program cuts are a different thing.

COLLINS: Right, but I'm talking about subsidies.

FINNEY: No.

JENNINGS: Medicaid and the Obamacare stuff are two different issues.

FINNEY: Correct.

JENNINGS: And I said, the subsidies may get negotiated over time. But what Democrats want to do is roll back what the Republican Medicaid reforms were.

They want -- look, I don't understand why everybody's so mad. For time in memoriam, Democrats have argued that it's good, it's good for illegal immigrants to get Medicaid. Every candidate for president in 2020 raised their hand for it. In the big, beautiful bill debate, they argued it was good policy. I can't believe there's an about-face--

COLLINS: Yes, but Scott--

JENNINGS: --in the Democratic Party on it today.

FINNEY: Well--

COLLINS: Hold on. I got a question for Karen.

FINNEY: Sure.

[21:15:00]

COLLINS: But Scott, I will say, people who are in the country illegally also can't get Medicaid. That's federal law.

JENNINGS: Sure they can. Sure they can.

COLLINS: They can't get Medicaid, Medicare--

JENNINGS: They also can't register to vote.

COLLINS: --Obamacare subsidies.

JENNINGS: They also can't register to vote. But we just found one in Maryland who was running the Des Moines school system.

FINNEY: Oh, one? Oh, my God, one? Scott?

JENNINGS: I mean, I'm telling you, you guys say these things can't happen, and then they happen.

COLLINS: I'm just saying, Scott, it's--

FINNEY: Oh, my God, you're so--

COLLINS: --but I'm just saying it's federal law.

JENNINGS: I mean, you can run cover--

COLLINS: And they're not trying to roll back--

JENNINGS: --you can run cover for it if you want. But they do get federal tax money.

COLLINS: And they're not trying to roll back federal law.

FINNEY: I'm not--

COLLINS: It's just the facts.

JENNINGS: They get federal tax money.

COLLINS: But Karen, can I ask you--

JENNINGS: They get federal tax money.

FINNEY: Yes--

JENNINGS: I asked Jake, he had it on today.

COLLINS: I'm just saying it's against federal law to do that.

JENNINGS: OK.

FINNEY: Yes, it is.

JENNINGS: Good luck with it.

COLLINS: Karen, can I ask you? Because one thing that we've heard from Democrats, over the last several months, is that the President's consolidation of power is dangerous. That's how Democrats have framed this.

FINNEY: Yes.

COLLINS: But now what House Speaker, Mike Johnson, the point he was making here last night, is that Democrats have handed the President more power by shutting the government down, because now they're canceling and stopping these contracts, and saying they're going to fire a bunch of federal workers during this period.

FINNEY: Yes.

COLLINS: Was that a mistake in your view?

FINNEY: Well, but again, the President -- it's a choice that the President can make. I mean, governing is all about choices, right? The leader of the country can say, Hey, I'm going to protect tax cuts for billionaires, or I'm going to make sure over 20 million American families can afford -- can get the subsidies they need to afford their health care and not see it double.

And by the way, Russell Vought is not someone who -- you know, this government is -- we know they're going to DOGE their way through the rest of the federal the federal government anyway. I don't think there's much credibility in saying, Hey, we're going to use this to lay people off.

I mean, consider -- I just want to consider, it's a different pot of money. But think about the optics. The White House confirmed to Fox News today that the construction of the Grand Ballroom will continue while they are talking about laying people off and potentially firing people. That is outrageous.

If you're serious about negotiating, as the Senator said, you don't do things like that. You say, We are going to bring everybody to the table. Let's see what we can get done.

And Scott, part of -- you know that part of the reason this issue around the ACA credits, as the Senator, I think, pointed out, there's not a lot of credibility here. So, let's act like adults. Let's come to the table and stop making threats about, Oh, we're going to fire these people, and we're going to -- you know what? You're the leader. It's your job to bring people together.

COLLINS: Karen Finney, and Scott Jennings, we will see if anyone comes together after this. Thank you so much for being here.

FINNEY: Thanks.

COLLINS: Up next. The White House, speaking of the efforts that they are taking, the actions here, they just hit New York with a big funding freeze, because of this shutdown. Of course, New York is home to the two top Democrats in Congress who are leading the negotiations over this shutdown. One of them is now calling this move, an attack on working Americans.

We're going to speak with a New York Republican about it all, right after this.

[21:20:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: Tonight, the White House is trying to maximize the pain of the government shutdown, using its powers to try to get Democrats to the negotiating table and end the shutdown as soon as possible. Russ Vought, who you heard mentioned at the previous segment, might not be a household name, but he's the President's Budget chief, and he has an extensive amount of power, here in Washington.

Within the first 24 hours of this shutdown, Vought announced the cancelation of nearly $8 billion that he said was fueling Democrats' climate agenda, across 16 states, all of which happened to be home to Democratic senators who voted against the Republican bill to keep the government open.

Vought also announced that the cancelation of roughly $18 billion of infrastructure funds for two key projects in New York City, as two New York Democrats are leading their party through this shutdown battle. That is the Senate Minority Leader, Chuck Schumer, and the House Minority Leader, Hakeem Jeffries.

During a surprise appearance in the White House Briefing Room, this afternoon, the Vice President, JD Vance, was asked if he believes this amounts to political pressure.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: The timing of this, does announcing that today mean that you guys are going to squeeze Chuck Schumer's home state until he blinks?

VANCE: Look, I haven't talked to Russ about this, this morning. But look, I'm sure that Russ is heartbroken about the fact that he is unable to give certain things to certain constituencies.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Joining me now, Republican congressman, Mike Lawler of New York.

And Congressman, do you believe it's wrong of the White House to pull the funding for these infrastructure projects in your state?

REP. MIKE LAWLER (R-NY): Well, I put out a statement today, opposing the cuts. Obviously, these are critical infrastructure projects, not just for New York, but New Jersey. And commuters in my district in particular will benefit from Gateway. So, obviously, I'm opposed to this.

But this, Kaitlan, is the direct result of the Schumer shutdown. If Chuck Schumer would have done the right thing by the American people, and passed the CR, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

For years, Chuck Schumer, and Hakeem Jeffries, and Nancy Pelosi, and you name the Democrat, lectured America, lectured Republicans, about the need to pass clean CRs, to keep the government funded and open. They have given the executive, all this authority by shutting the government down.

And so, from my vantage point, there's a very simple way to end this, and move forward, which is to pass the CR.

COLLINS: But they have the authority. That doesn't mean they have to use it, right?

LAWLER: Well, we've seen in shutdowns past, presidents and executive administrations have made decisions, prioritized spending.

[21:25:00]

The problem here is, you don't have the funding and you don't have the authorizations for these projects. That's why shutting down the government is so idiotic, and why I have been very consistent in this. I have opposed it, when Republicans tried to do it, under Joe Biden, and I am opposing it now when Democrats do it.

And by the way, Tina Smith admitted, this is their only leverage. Tina Smith said, This is our only shot, we think, to be able to leverage anything. So, they intentionally shut the government down. It is wrong.

You had Jared Golden, the Democrat from Maine, who voted for the CR in the House with all of the Republicans. He said today that Hakeem Jeffries is doing this because of their left flank, and they are concerned about the political pressure to caving and not shutting down the government.

So, this is entirely driven by Chuck Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries, and they're petrified of the far-left, including a primary from AOC, and obviously what is happening in New York with Zohran Mamdani's potential election as mayor. They are playing pure politics here, and it has to stop.

COLLINS: But do you not believe the administration is playing politics by only canceling projects in states where Democrats are, and are running the place?

LAWLER: Well, listen, I'm in New York, and I'm a Republican, and obviously this project cancelation impacts me, and it impacts my district. So, it's not just Democrats getting impacted.

But this is the consequence of the stupidity of shutting down the government, and Chuck Schumer is directly responsible. He should immediately call all of his Senate Democrats, bring them to the House -- to the Senate floor, and vote to pass the CR. It's not that hard. We can open up the government immediately, and all of this would go away.

COLLINS: Has the White House given you any assurances that if the shutdown ends, they'll restore the funding for these two projects in your state?

LAWLER: Well, I've been in touch with them. Obviously, the statement today focused on the aspect of DEI with respect to contracting, in addition, obviously some of the security funding, relating to sanctuary city policies. This is some of the challenges, obviously, in New York.

But from my vantage point, and that of my Republican colleagues from New York, we are pushing back to make sure that these critical projects and security funding comes through. And so, we will work with the administration to get that done.

But, again, very simple, Chuck Schumer should immediately pass a clean CR, so that we can get the government open and funded, and get back to the business of the American people.

COLLINS: But DEI and sanctuary city policies, I mean, that has nothing to do with the government shutdown. So, it sounds like the White House is just canceling this project, in your home state, that you're talking about how critical it is, with no reassurance that they're going to restore that funding.

LAWLER: Look, you have multiple executive orders from the President. New York obviously has made disastrous policy decisions when it comes to this.

And by the way, Kaitlan, Kathy Hochul came and testified before Congress, over the summer, and I asked her, point-blank, Did you expand Medicaid to cover illegal immigrants? And she admitted that they did. So, yes, Medicaid dollars are being used to provide illegal immigrants with health care benefits in New York and California. We put in place--

COLLINS: But what does that have to do with the infrastructure projects?

LAWLER: No, but Kaitlan, this is all tied together. You're sitting here, saying that Democrats are only arguing -- are only arguing--

COLLINS: OK, this is a pretty big web that you're weaving here.

LAWLER: No, no, Kaitlan -- Kaitlan, it's all tied together. You're sitting here, in your interview with Tina Smith, talking about health care. You told Scott Jennings that No, Medicaid is not used for illegal immigrants. It is, in fact, and has been, in New York. And Kathy Hochul testified before Congress that she--

COLLINS: State dollars versus federal funding, Congressman. You know what I was--

LAWLER: No. Kaitlan? No, wait a minute--

COLLINS: I said, under federal law that they don't qualify for that.

LAWLER: Wait a minute. We put--

COLLINS: You know that.

LAWLER: Wait a minute. We put in place protections to make sure that illegal immigrants are not getting Medicaid. Democrats want to reverse that. They want to reverse key provisions within the tax bill that we passed.

All of this is tied together, and the policy decisions that New York has made has created a calamity for the state. We are simply saying, as a Republican Representative from New York, I want to make sure these projects get funded. But Democrats have to start making better choices.

Shutting down the government was idiotic. Chuck Schumer should not have done it. He knows better. When Democrats have been in control, he rightly said, shutting down the government was wrong, we should pass clean CRs. I agreed with him then. I disagree with him now. All of these issues are interconnected. Democrats are demanding certain things as part of voting for a CR, and it's wrong.

COLLINS: But the Gateway Program, which they took away the funding for today, you previously called it a critical infrastructure investment that will support American workers, keep your economy on track.

LAWLER: Yes.

COLLINS: And you said the numbers speak for themselves. Nothing you've said tonight says that the White House has offered a reassurance, that funding will be restored.

[21:30:00]

LAWLER: We have -- we have been in communication with the administration, and I will fight tooth and nail--

COLLINS: But are they listening?

LAWLER: --to make sure that that funding -- look, I work closely with the administration on behalf of my constituents. It's why I was able to deliver a SALT increase for New Yorkers, for my district. You have to engage in a constructive dialog. Just doing what Chuck Schumer is doing has produced absolutely nothing, and, in fact, it has hurt New Yorkers.

COLLINS: But you're in the--

LAWLER: So I'm going to clean up Chuck Schumer's mess.

COLLINS: Can I actually ask you about -- OK, you're saying Chuck Schumer has the wrong--

LAWLER: But the bottom line is, we need to make sure that the government gets opened.

COLLINS: You're saying Chuck Schumer has the wrong approach here, that he needs to engage in these negotiations.

LAWLER: He does.

COLLINS: And you're talking to the White House, and still that funding is not restored. And you're a Republican.

LAWLER: Respectfully, Kaitlan, the funding was pulled today. We are working with the administration.

But there's a very simple way to get this back on track. Open up the government. If Chuck Schumer cares so deeply about New York, as he proclaims he does, then he should immediately get to work, and do what he's always done, which is pass CRs to keep the government funded. The man has been in elected office for 50 years. 50 years. Either do the job, or go home.

COLLINS: But has the White House told you that if the government reopens, they'll restore this funding? Yes or no?

LAWLER: I'm not going to get into the specifics of my conversations with the administration. What I can tell you is this. We are working to get it done. But there's a very simple solution here. Open up the government.

COLLINS: OK, I'm just saying it doesn't seem like the solution, if they haven't offered that. But obviously, as you noted, this was announced today, you put out your opposition. We'll see if that changes anything.

Congressman Mike Lawler, thank you for your time tonight.

LAWLER: Thanks, Kaitlan.

COLLINS: Up next. As this government shutdown is in full effect here, votes in Congress are now on the back burner. There's one question about the Epstein files that some Democrats have brought up tonight. We're going to be joined by Congresswoman Jasmine Crockett, right after this break.

[21:35:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: There's breaking news, here on Capitol Hill tonight, as we are nearly one full day into the government shutdown, as we've now heard from House Speaker Mike Johnson's office, who tells us that the new Congresswoman-elect, Adelita Grijalva, will be sworn in when the House returns to session, next week.

We spoke with Speaker Johnson, last night, about the House, and when they're coming back. Democrats have been here, but he has not required House Republicans to be here.

And here's the reason this matters, and why this will be so significant. Because Grijalva is expected to provide what is going to be a pivotal vote, to force the release of the Jeffrey Epstein files, currently held by the Justice Department. It's a vote that for several weeks and months, Speaker Johnson has resisted.

Joining me tonight is a member of the House Oversight Committee. Democratic congresswoman, Jasmine Crockett of Texas.

And I just wonder, this has been a big thing that a lot of the Democrats have been asking about, I know. What's your reaction to Speaker Johnson's announcement about swearing her in, next week?

REP. JASMINE CROCKETT (D-TX): Yes, it sounds like they finally twisted somebody's arm to get off the discharge petition. Our Representative- elect Grijalva will be signature number 218, forcing every single member in the House, Democrats and Republicans, to take a vote on the release of the Epstein files.

And interestingly enough, a lot of people have asked, Do you think that the shutdown is a distraction from this? And part of it, yes, I think anything that the President can do to get people to distract from Epstein, he's going to do it.

But the fact that he's willing to swear her in now, almost convinces me that the White House has twisted somebody to jump off, so that we still will be down, and not have the full 218.

COLLINS: Because there were -- was it three House Republicans who were--

CROCKETT: Four.

COLLINS: Well, Thomas Massie, they're not going to get him to -- to come over--

CROCKETT: They're not going to get him, no.

COLLINS: But there were a few others that there were questions of -- the White House--

CROCKETT: Marjorie is one of them.

COLLINS: Marjorie Taylor Greene, Nancy Mace, I believe was one other--

CROCKETT: Nancy.

COLLINS: --in terms of, of trying to get them to change their minds.

CROCKETT: And Anna Paulina Luna, I think, is the other one.

COLLINS: So, you think that maybe this means the White House successfully convinced one of them to--

CROCKETT: I do.

COLLINS: --to change that.

CROCKETT: I do.

COLLINS: So, does that mean that you think that ultimately, this vote won't be successful?

CROCKETT: Well, we won't even have a vote. So, if we don't have the full 218 signatures, then we won't be able to put it on the floor for a vote.

If we get it to the floor for a vote, it will pass, and I think it will pass with more than the 218 that it took for the discharge petition, because I don't think some people want to be on record, as voting to support pedophiles. Even though we know, in their actions, they are absolutely supporting pedophiles.

COLLINS: So, if your instinct bears out, what happens then with the -- this big push?

CROCKETT: Well, we have another special election that's coming up. We've got a number -- we've got another two special elections coming up. One in Tennessee for a Republican seat, and maybe we'll have a miracle, since Democrats have been overperforming by approximately no less than 10 points. And then we have a special election for a Democratic seat, down in Houston.

COLLINS: OK.

And I'm not sure if you saw this today. People in the White House certainly saw this interview that the Commerce Secretary, Howard Lutnick, did with the New York Post, where he was actually talking about Jeffrey Epstein. He was -- had long had a house next to his, in New York, and he was talking about this moment, when he and his wife met Jeffrey Epstein.

And this is what Howard Lutnick had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HOWARD LUTNICK, COMMERCE SECRETARY: I say to him, Massage table in the middle of your house? How often do you have a massage?

And he says, Every day.

[21:40:00]

And then he like gets like weirdly close to me and he says, And the right kind of massage.

And in the six or eight steps it takes to get from his house to my house, my wife and I decided that I will never be in the room with that disgusting person ever again.

That's what his M.O. was, you know, Get a massage, get a massage. And what happened in that massage room, I assume was on video. This guy was the greatest blackmailer ever.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Now, on that front, he suggested that federal prosecutors -- that prosecutors struck an agreement with Jeffrey Epstein, because he handed over videos of people getting massages at his house. Some of the people he named denied that, I should note.

But I wonder what -- I mean, the White House was kind of irritated, I think, some people in the White House, I'll say, by that -- by that interview, because obviously this is not something they want to talk about.

CROCKETT: Yes.

COLLINS: What's your take on that interview?

CROCKETT: You know, I had an opportunity to sit down in the transcribed interview of Alex Acosta. And so, I was able to actually do my lawyering, as I was asking him questions about why it is that he decided to basically give out a sweetheart deal, a deal that he says, even today, when he looks back, he doesn't look at it as a sweetheart deal.

Now, his excuse was that the victims just weren't credible enough. He felt like they had credibility issues. He felt like they would be impeached.

And it was very weird for me to hear, as someone who has been a defense attorney, who has had to defend against these kind of cases. Usually, it is a prosecutor's dream, because most juries want to believe, especially a child victim. They never want to get it wrong. And so, it is very difficult to overcome that.

And so, he wasn't giving me satisfactory answers.

But listening to that, it seems like much like my own gut. In this particular case, there was more than enough to go after Epstein, and there was just a lot that Alex wasn't telling us.

COLLINS: So, this all comes -- you're talking about this potentially being tied to the government shutdown. Right now, neither chamber is in session here. As you know. It's very quiet here on Capitol Hill tonight.

What we've seen, though, from the White House is not silence. They are actually using all of their government websites to say, this is Democrats pushing this shutdown. I think we have a -- we can show you some of those websites, showing these messages, blaming Democrats for this shutdown. HUD. DOJ. State Department. Agriculture.

Do you think that they're being more effective in their messaging, in terms of putting this blame on Democrats?

CROCKETT: I think they're being a lot more illegal in their messaging.

The first thing that I wanted to know was, how can this not be a violation of the Hatch Act in some way, right? Because we are not allowed to politic on official sites. Period. Right? And that's what they're doing. They literally changed official government websites, to put out their propaganda. Instead of just saying, We're currently in a shutdown, you decided to play partisan politics on an official website.

And I guess, there is no limit to what they won't do, because they do the exact same thing when we walk into committee. Instead of us having real committee hearings, where we are actually able to get information that may somehow help the American people understand what's going on. Instead, it's always a campaign rally that they're doing when we walk into committee, and it's more spewing of their propaganda.

So, I don't think that they're being more effective. I think that they are being more illegal, in the ways that they're going about, making sure that they can push out the information. I think that the American people are smart. As I was sitting here, waiting to come on, I was going through my email. And almost at the top of my email was an email from a federal worker. A federal worker that said, Keep up the great work. We will be OK. This is too important.

So, even in this moment, we are getting emails, or at least I am, from federal workers that understand the sacrifice that is happening right now.

But this idea that the retribution is going to be, that since the government is shut down, then we're going to call in his henchmen, Russell Vought, so that he can go and do what he's been doing. But he's been doing that, with no permission.

We've had to go to court, I don't know, how many times, to say, No, you were wrong. You can't fire those people.

So, what difference does it make? They have consistently violated the law, whether it was statute, or whether it was the Constitution. There is nothing different about this.

In addition to the fact, when we're talking about violating law, how about empowerment (ph)? The very first thing that we talked about, when we first got in, is that there have been laws that have been signed into law. And what did they do? They sent in Elon Musk, and he started, illegally, just deciding he wasn't going to send out certain dollars, dollars today that people are still missing, that we had appropriated.

So, what assurances do we have if we entered into an agreement, with these Republicans, that they wouldn't go back on their word and just say, Oh yes, we'll sign off on a rescissions package. Everything that the Democrats fought for, such as health care assurances around the Affordable Care Act, yes, we'll make sure that that holds.

COLLINS: Yes.

CROCKETT: We don't have any assurances.

COLLINS: We've seen that argument from other Democrats.

Congresswoman Jasmine Crockett, thank you for joining us tonight.

CROCKETT: It's good to see you.

[21:45:00]

COLLINS: And up next here on Capitol Hill. We've heard from President Trump at the White House today, talking about National Guard troops. You saw them in Washington. He says they're now in place in Portland. Officials there, though, are saying his descriptions of the city don't match theirs. I'm going to speak with the Police Chief in Portland to break it all down, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[21:50:00]

COLLINS: We're back live from the nation's capital tonight, as President Trump's focus has remained in part, nearly on 3,000 miles away, in Oregon tonight, where he says, National Guard troops are, quote, Now in place, in all-caps, as he says the conditions there in Portland continue to deteriorate into lawless mayhem, and that ANTIFA and the Radical Left Anarchists have been viciously attacking our Federal Law Enforcement Officers.

But state and local officials say that the President's claims are not backed up by the facts on the ground, and they're actually fighting this deployment in court tonight. They argue that the protests have been mostly confined to one city block, outside of an ICE facility, and that it had actually calmed down over the last couple of months.

Tensions did flare up last night. There was a federal agent in tactical gear that appeared to come into contact with a person, before another agent tackled that person to the ground, as you can see here, putting them in plastic handcuffs and taking them away.

We don't know who made contact first. That's still unclear tonight. But it comes as the Department of Homeland Security says that, in all, six protesters were arrested, last night, on charges that include assaulting law enforcement.

Joining me tonight is the Portland Police Chief, Bob Day.

And it's great to have you here, sir.

I just would love to hear from you, when it comes to, first off, the National Guard being in place. Have you seen them? Do you know what they're doing there?

CHIEF BOB DAY, PORTLAND, OREGON POLICE BUREAU: No, they are not in place at this time. They're receiving some additional training, we believe. They'll probably be deployed in the coming days, but they're not in place right now.

COLLINS: OK. So, you haven't seen them in your city?

DAY: No.

COLLINS: And do you believe having them there is necessary? Do you need them there?

DAY: No, just as you highlighted a moment ago, we're talking about one city block in 145 square miles. Certainly been some challenges down at the facility. Portland Police has been engaged down there extensively, over the last nine months. We've made over 20 arrests ourselves. We're conducting assault investigations ongoing. We're working closely with our federal partners.

But the facility itself is managed and governed by the Federal Protective Service, and they have responsibility for that. And the incidents you speak of, for example, last night, occurring on their property. But Portland is very much engaged. And once again, this is just one small block in a big city that we're trying to manage for all the Portlanders.

COLLINS: And so, for people who aren't in Portland, and what we've heard from federal officials describing what they say is the situation on the ground there, you're saying, that doesn't align with what you've seen and what your officers have seen?

DAY: Correct. I mean, the city is in a tremendous state of renewal. We recognize that 2020 and 2021 were some tough times. But 2025, we see crime down double digits, in nearly all major categories. We're seeing high return foot traffic downtown. We've hosted some of our largest conventions in this city's history this year--

COLLINS: Yes.

DAY: --large-scale sporting events, et cetera. So no, it's not lining up.

COLLINS: Can I get your take on something else? Because we heard top Trump officials in Memphis tonight, another city that they say that they're going to crack down on.

The Deputy Chief of Staff, Stephen Miller, was there. I just want everyone to listen to what he said to the officers inside that room tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEPHEN MILLER, WHITE HOUSE DEPUTY CHIEF OF STAFF: I see the guns and badges in this room. You are unleashed. The handcuffs that you're carrying, they're not on you anymore. They're on the criminals. And whatever you need to get it done, we're going to get it done.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: As a Police Chief, what do you make of that message coming from a political aide at the White House?

DAY: Well, as a police officer who had been in this line of work for over three decades, we are committed to serving all Portlanders. We are public servants. And the use of our discretion in the area of arrest is based upon the rule of law.

And I can tell you, in Portland, we are not restricted in that manner, and we have full support from the Governor and the Mayor, to enforce the law, and we are doing that. We are not tolerating violence or vandalism, illegal behavior. But we also are huge proponents of free speech, and for people to be able to travel freely and safely about the city.

So, for our position is that we have a good understanding of what our responsibility is, and a tremendous relationship with our community that we serve, and we're seeing the results of that in reduced crime and a higher sense of public safety. COLLINS: Yes, and we know how important a relationship like that is.

Chief Bob Day, thank you for coming on and clearing things up for us tonight. I really do appreciate your time.

DAY: No, thank you.

COLLINS: Up next for us. It is a woman who changed how the world sees animals. The legendary life of Jane Goodall.

[21:55:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: Tonight, the whole world is mourning the death of the pioneering scientist and conservationist, Jane Goodall. She passed away due to natural causes, while she was in California on a speaking tour, at the age of 91 today.

Goodall's work has helped the world better-understand animal behavior and emotions, for decades. She famously lived among the chimpanzees in Tanzania, at age 26, giving them names, and learning to read their emotions, blurring this line that existed between humans and the animal kingdom.

Her studies broke barriers for women, and they changed the way that scientists study animals. Her original mission was to learn everything she could about chimpanzees, in hopes that their behavior might provide us with a window on our past, as she put it.

[22:00:00]

Goodall later focused her efforts on environmental preservation, founding the Jane Goodall Institute, back in 1977. She even influenced laws in this building, right here behind me tonight, testifying before Congress, back in 2000, in support of the CHIMP Act, which established a sanctuary system for chimpanzees no longer needed for research.

The United Nations actually named her a Messenger of Peace in 2002.

May her memory be a blessing, given her legacy is certainly an extraordinary one.

Thanks so much for joining us tonight.

"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts now.