Return to Transcripts main page
The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Shutdown Nears Day Three With No End In Sight; Energy Secretary: Projects Cut In Blue States Not Tied To Shutdown; Acting U.S. Attorney That Charged Comey Seen At White House. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired October 02, 2025 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
MAX FOSTER, CNN ANCHOR AND CORRESPONDENT: --don't get to see what life is really like, behind palace walls. We always want to know a little bit more.
It's obvious that Prince William wants to change things. He wants to make the family more relatable. And this was a remarkably frank and open interview. You get a real sense of the real Prince William. I think that was on purpose, John.
JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: What an unusual combination there.
Max Foster, thank you.
That's all for us. I'm John Berman. I'm going to see you, tomorrow morning, at 07:00, alongside Kate Bolduan and Sara Sidner, for "CNN NEWS CENTRAL."
In the meantime, the news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts right now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Shutdown in sight, President Trump says he is pledging to cut Democratic agencies.
We'll speak to his Energy Secretary, as we are now about three hours away from day three of the shutdown.
I'm Kaitlan Collins on Capitol Hill. And this is THE SOURCE.
All is quiet, here on Capitol Hill, as the government is still shut down tonight. And based on what we know, right now -- that could change -- but based on what we know right now, this is going to stretch into next week, at least. Even if everything here at the Capitol reopens, come Monday, I should note that we looked at the math, and only three shutdowns in the last 40 years or so have lasted longer than this one.
Now, at some point, Democratic and Republican leaders will have to stop talking into the microphones, and start talking to each other. But for now, what we know is that negotiations don't appear to be underway in any kind of substantive fashion. The House Speaker, Mike Johnson, as you can see here, was spotted by my colleague, Khalil Abdallah, entering the West Wing, on his phone this afternoon. That came after his second-in-command, up here on Capitol Hill, stated that the President is open to more talks.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. STEVE SCALISE (R-LA): President Trump has proven he's ready to negotiate again. He brought all the leaders to the White House, just a few days ago. He stands ready to resolve this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now, that is what we heard from Republicans.
But the House Minority Leader, Hakeem Jeffries, insists that they can't get Republicans on the phone.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES (D-NY): Unfortunately, Republicans have shown zero interest in even having a conversation. After the White House meeting, on Monday, we've seen behavior by the President that is unserious and unhinged. And Leader Schumer and myself haven't gotten a single phone call, as it relates to a follow-up conversation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now, one person we do know the President was meeting and speaking with today was his Budget Director. As he wrote on Truth Social today, quote, "I have a meeting today with Russ Vought, he of PROJECT 2025 Fame," as Trump described the shutdown as an "Unprecedented opportunity" to talk about what more they can cut from the federal government.
The President is highlighting his Budget Director's role as a co- author of Project 2025, despite his many stated and repeated denials regarding anything to do with Project 2025, on the campaign trail.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I have nothing to do, as you know and as she knows better than anyone, I have nothing to do with Project 2025. That's out there. I haven't read it.
They made up everything, so many different stories, they made up about Project '25. They've been told officially, legally, in every way, that we have nothing to do with Project '25.
I don't know anything about it. I don't want to know anything about it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: For nearly 750,000 federal workers, who are now locked out of their jobs, today's meeting with the Budget Director and the President comes with a risk that we've not really ever seen in any other government shutdown.
As the White House Press Secretary herself warned today about how many of them could potentially lose their jobs.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: It's likely going to be in the thousands. It's a very good question. And that's something that the Office of Management and Budget, and the entire team at the White House here, again, is unfortunately having to work on today.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: And as the second day of the shutdown is now winding down, as we prepare to go into day three, President Trump stayed behind closed doors today, though he did spend the evening, having dinner at the Vice President's residence tonight, and just got back to the White House a few moments ago. He did not speak to reporters, though, as he arrived there.
Starting us off here tonight is the Democratic senator, Andy Kim of New Jersey.
And Senator, I do think a big question that a lot of voters have right now is, you know, based on what we see, it's pretty quiet here on Capitol Hill. Doesn't seem like there's a ton of negotiations going on between either your leaders or Republican leaders.
[21:05:00]
SEN. ANDY KIM (D-NJ): Yes, look, what I heard -- I was just actually back in New Jersey for a few hours today, to talk to some of my constituents face-to-face. And what they want is they want adults in the room. They want people to step up and negotiate with one another. They want to make sure that we all understand we're not going to get a 100 percent of what we wanted, but we need to stay engaged.
And I will be honest with you. They were furious, when they heard about the fact that the House of Representatives, Republicans there didn't even bother showing up to work, this week.
I talked with a roundtable of current federal employees. They are showing up to work every day right now. They're not getting paid. Our troops are not getting paid. Yet, the members of Congress and the President are getting paid, and they didn't even bother to show up to work.
COLLINS: When you see the President, though, as he's posting today's meeting with his Budget Director, talking about where they can make cuts. Does it worry you about what could happen, if the shutdown goes on any longer?
KIM: Yes, look, it definitely worries me. I mean, I used to be a federal civil servant. I worked through two shutdowns before. I know the challenges that they face. And I have to say, it is so unnerving that we have a president that just seems to be gleefully excited to be able to fire, en masse, federal workers, and be able to cut programs, just because of political revenge and retribution.
There was one woman today that I talked to, who I think summed it up well. She said -- I asked her, Is there something you'd like to tell President Trump, tell these leaders that are making these decisions?
And she said, Yes, I want them to know that this is our money. This is the American people's money. This is not Donald Trump's bank account. This is the federal government account, and it should be available to be able to support the American people.
And I think that's an incredibly important reminder, when we see Trump trying to gut billions of dollars from the Gateway Tunnel project for -- that's going to affect my state. That's going to hurt a lot of Americans.
And his willingness to hurt American families, just to seek political revenge, I think, is going to backfire on him.
COLLINS: Do you believe that's legal what they did with the--
KIM: No. Absolutely not. Completely not legal to just--
COLLINS: Under what -- what authority?
KIM: Well look, in terms of being able to follow through on the laws that we passed, in terms of the budget that we passed, it's the same thing that we see with his rescissions and efforts to cut back.
The Constitution clearly states that it is the legislature that sets the national budget. What Donald Trump is clearly showing is that we do not have currently three functioning branches of government. We have one branch, trying to dominate the other two, and we see congressional Republican leaders basically acting as if they are Cabinet members in Trump's administration, rather than leaders of a separate branch of government.
COLLINS: If it's not legal, what is the recourse for something like that?
KIM: Yes, look, I've been engaging with my Governor, Attorney General, and we're engaging with New York as well, to come up with a plan here, on legal action to be able to take. So, that's already in motion. That's what we're pushing forward on in different ways.
But look, what we see here, and need to do first and foremost, is to show the American people just the blatantness of this. And as I said, it's going to backfire on him. People don't like this mafia tactic of just trying to strongarm and, again, using taxpayer dollars to make political points, violating the Hatch Act, left and right.
And right now, we have an election in New Jersey, we have one of two states that has a governor election. And I'll be honest with you, with this effort that he's trying to do to block funding for the Gateway? I think he just lost the Republicans' chances in winning the governorship in New Jersey.
COLLINS: You think this will help? Because they -- basically, for people -- they've pulled the infrastructure funding for these two projects. It's in New York, but it affects, obviously, a bunch of commuters in New Jersey as well. You think it will end up helping Mikie Sherrill, the Democratic candidate in that race?
KIM: Oh, no doubt. I mean, first and foremost, it nationalizes this race. It shows what's at stake, and it shows why we need a governor that's going to stand up to Donald Trump, rather than Jack Ciattarelli, who literally said that he can't think of a single thing that he would -- that he disagrees with Donald Trump on. We know that he's going to be taking orders from Donald Trump. And the people of New Jersey, after what we're seeing with this, aren't going to stand for it.
COLLINS: One thing John Thune, the Republican leader in the Senate, has said is that if you'll reopen the government, he'll negotiate with Democrats on their key thing here, which is extending the Obamacare- enhanced subsidies.
Do you believe that's a route that the Democrats could take here--
KIM: Well, look, then we had--
COLLINS: --if that's really what you ultimately want?
KIM: --we had all the opportunity to do so beforehand. I didn't see him take up that, and be able to -- open negotiations in that way.
What we also see right now is we're on a precipice here. Constituents of mine are already getting their updated budgets, updated prices for health care premiums, and they're skyrocketing two to three times more. The number of people I talked to, Lucinda (ph) who called into a town hall told me there's no way that she can be able to afford her new premiums.
The open enrollment starts in just a few weeks.
COLLINS: Yes.
KIM: We need to move forward on this with haste.
COLLINS: How long do you believe this shutdown could go on for? Because the White House seems to be pretty optimistic that five more of your colleagues are going to fold next week, and vote yes.
[21:10:00]
KIM: Look, what I saw when I was on the floor of the House -- the floor of the Senate yesterday, is we had a talk with, bipartisan talk, a number of the senators, and I heard a lot of Republican senators saying that they're concerned about the ACA prices going up, and they're hearing it from their own constituents. So, I think they're the ones that are feeling the pressure.
There's a reason why Speaker Johnson didn't bring the House into session. It's because he doesn't want the Republican House members to talk about health care, because they know they're on the wrong side of this.
He knows that a number of his Republican House members actually want to vote for ACA support for their constituents, because they know that they're probably going to lose their seat, and they're probably going to lose the House chamber in the midterms, next year. So, there's a -- you know, they absolutely are panicking on the Republican side.
COLLINS: Democratic senator, Andy Kim, thank you for joining us tonight.
KIM: Thanks for having me.
COLLINS: And we'll see if this is extending into next week.
My political sources are also here tonight.
Marc Short worked in the first Trump administration as Vice President Pence's Chief of Staff.
Paul Begala is a Democratic strategist and CNN Political Commentator.
And Marc, obviously you were in the Trump administration, during the last shutdown that happened and it lasted for 35 days. What did you make of the Senator's argument there?
MARC SHORT, FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF TO VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE: Well, look, I think the reality is that this is a Democrat-instigated shutdown, Kaitlan. Republicans have passed legislation, in the House, that funds the government. So when he complains the House not being in, the House has done its job. Ball is now in the Senate's court.
And so, these are positions that the Democrat senators voted for, the same legislation, six months ago and voted for the same legislation, two years ago, on a continuing resolution. This is basically sustaining funding at Biden levels, which many Republicans have actually had concerns about, how much we're spending, but they're supporting keeping the government open. And so, they're adding pieces on to what they say they need to get done.
I think when it comes to the Obamacare subsidies. Democrats were pretty shrewd, when they passed Obamacare, because they went to insurance companies and said, We'll give you these subsidies to get your support behind the bill, because they knew government-controlled healthcare wouldn't lower prices, it would raise prices.
But unfortunately, I think at the end of the day, there's going to be enough Republicans, end of this year, that go along with Democrats to pass the continuation of these subsidies. And so, that's going to happen. Right now, we're fighting about is keeping the government open, and Republicans have passed legislation to do that. So, the ball is actually in the Democrat court. COLLINS: Paul, what do you make of that?
PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Well, I've seen a lot of shutdowns, I've been around, I worked in the White House. This is the dumbest one ever.
The Republicans have all the power. Democrats, for just this moment, have a little bit of leverage, and I think they're actually doing something very smart. They're asking for one thing and one thing only.
And by the way, they're not asking the Republicans to do something difficult. They're not asking to Trump to give back that ridiculous jet that the Qatari Emir gave him. They're not asking to cancel Elon Musk's no-bid contracts. They're not asking to bring troops home that Trump has deployed into American cities. They're not even asking to tax the rich.
They're asking to extend health care premium subsidies, which, by the way, benefit Trump voters enormously. And Washington Post polled this. It's a 71 percent popular thing. So, the Democrats are asking the Republicans to do something very popular and very much needed, frankly.
And somehow, the Republicans are going to shut down the government, lying awake at night, worried that maybe somebody will be able to afford to pay for their health care? It is, it's just the dumbest deal I think I have ever seen.
And this is how -- I guess that's how Trump went bankrupt running a casino. I mean, he's supposed to be a deal-maker.
COLLINS: Marc--
BEGALA: --if you can't make this deal, sir?
It's like asking me, You can go to the Texas Florida game this weekend, Paul, but you got to drink beer. Like, wait, what's the catch?
SHORT: Paul's so--
COLLINS: Marc, on that note--
SHORT: Paul's so good at -- no, look, Paul's so good at spinning this stuff. But the reality is that he's used to Republicans shutting down the government. This time, it's the Democrats. And he says it's one thing, but they also want to actually get rid of the work requirements, the same ones that Paul Begala and Bill Clinton advocated for a couple decades ago. And so, it's not as simple as the way Paul is presenting it.
The reality is we have passed legislation to keep the government open. The Democrats are the ones shutting it down. There's an easy solution. Pass the bill. As I said, I think the reality is they're going to get their subsidies later in this year, anyhow. Right now, we're just trying to keep the government open. COLLINS: Can I ask you on that front, Marc, though? Because I think a lot of people at the White House, do feel confident that messaging- wise, they are winning this right now. I mean, who knows? We'll see how -- where it goes.
But if the President comes out and he fires a bunch of federal workers, he cancels these projects that end up in huge legal fights? Because, I mean, we've never seen a president cancel government programs just because there was a government shutdown. I mean, do you think that there could be backlash? Because that is a concern we've heard from Republicans, like Kevin Cramer.
SHORT: I think it's a very good question, and I think it's a very fair point. He did actually cancel the Gateway Project in the first administration, because it's a boondoggle that Schumer wants.
[21:15:00]
But I do think it's a great question, it relates to a shutdown, because I think a lot of Republicans feel they have the upper hand because it's a Democrat-instigated shutdown. If the administration starts creating other headlines with mass firings? And all of a sudden, I think it's a lot more confusing for the American public, as to really who's at fault here.
And so, I think that it's a great question. We'll have to wait and see whether or not there's actually holding back on the part of the White House, or whether they're going to move forward with mass layoffs.
COLLINS: Well, and Paul, on that front, do you think that Democrats are doing a good job, in terms of how they're messaging this, what you're hearing from Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer, on what they're fighting for and why the government is shut down, and since you called it, the dumbest government shutdown ever?
BEGALA: Well, for once -- and I criticize my party a lot. For once, they're just talking about one thing. Not a bunch of esoteric social elite issues, cultural issues that divide us. The thing that all of us need, which is health care.
And this is -- you heard Senator Kim. He's got an election for Governor in his State of New Jersey. Well, so does Virginia. So shutting down, by the way, that tunnel from New Jersey to New York will cost the Republicans' New Jersey governorship.
You start laying off federal employees? You know, many federal employees there are in Virginia? A 147,000, not counting the 120,000 in military uniform. A 147,000 civilian employees of the government in Virginia. You start laying them off? Abigail Spanberger is already running on affordability and cost of living. She's going to win in a landslide.
And I guess I should thank Mr. Trump, that he's damaging his party worse than that he's damaging our country, and good people who just want to serve their country.
COLLINS: Paul Begala. And Marc Short. Great to have you both here tonight.
BEGALA: Thank you.
COLLINS: And Roll Tide this weekend, Paul.
BEGALA: Good luck.
COLLINS: I mean, if you're going to bring up college football, I'm going to, you know, I got to respond.
Up next we--
BEGALA: You have the powerhouse Vanderbilt Commodores, you know? You should watch out.
COLLINS: Hey -- hey--
BEGALA: I'm going to watch it here.
COLLINS: Hey, yes, don't talk too soon. Let's see how this weekend goes first, and then -- then we'll brag.
All right, thank you both for being here. Great to have you.
BEGALA: OK.
COLLINS: Up next. We're going to go back to the White House, because the Energy Department there, speaking of what they are trying to cut amid this shutdown, projects worth billions of dollars, because amid this government shutdown, they're largely affecting Democratic-led states, ones that were won by Kamala Harris in the election.
But listen to what the Energy Secretary has to say about what's behind those cuts.
[21:20:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Anytime the government shutdowns, it puts an incredible amount of power into the hands of a government official that most Americans rarely, if maybe ever, have thought about. The President's Budget Director. The man currently in that position knows, from past experience, how to use that power.
Russ Vought has been seen at the White House every day of this shutdown. He meets with the President quite often. He also managed the longest shutdown ever during the last Trump administration, when Trump was in office in his first term.
And this is what Vought said, when President Biden was in office, about how it's possible to minimize the pain of a shutdown.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUSS VOUGHT, OMB DIRECTOR: I don't think anyone should be afraid of a government shutdown. I managed it for President Trump. We made it as painless and possible, consistent with the law.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: This time, the White House is choosing the exact opposite route.
On the first day of the shutdown, Russ Vought announced something that we have not ever seen before, in a government shutdown, in recent memory. The permanent cancelation of nearly $8 billion in energy projects, all of them funded by a bipartisan law. He specifically pointed to projects in the states that you see here. One thing they all have in common? They all voted for Kamala Harris in 2024.
For days, White House officials and Republican leaders have insisted, these sorts of cuts would be necessary, brought on solely by the shutdown and blamed entirely on Democrats.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEAVITT: Unfortunately, these conversations are happening because we don't have any money coming into the federal government right now. And so, the President wants to be a good steward of the American taxpayer dollar, during a time when our balance sheet is looking very grim, because the Democrats chose to shut the government down.
REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): It's going to get more and more painful, because the resources run out, and more and more things have to be reduced and eliminated.
JD VANCE (R), U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: We're not targeting federal agencies based on politics. We're targeting the people's government so that as much as possible of the essential services can continue to function.
VOUGHT: We will manage it appropriately. But it is -- it is something that can all be avoided, it can all be avoided, by accepting a reasonable position, which is what the House has passed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now compare those explanations for why the White House claims it must permanently cut billions of dollars in projects, to what we heard from the Energy Secretary, Chris Wright, at the White House, earlier today.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: Thank you so much, Mr. Secretary, for being here.
The question is, who made the final call to cancel these projects, these grants? Was that the Energy Department? Was that the Budget Director, Russ Vought?
CHRIS WRIGHT, ENERGY SECRETARY: That's in the Energy Department. All those decisions are made in the Energy Department. COLLINS: OK, and so when this -- obviously, this came on the first day of the government shutdown, which made people raise the question, was this tied to the government shutting down?
WRIGHT: No, our decisions have been made over the last few months. Team of seven or eight people have evaluated over 2,400 projects, just on business conditions, whether it makes sense for the American taxpayers or not. So, no, I mean, timing of announcements, I don't control that always. But these decisions are made on the Energy Department, all based on facts.
COLLINS: OK. Well, I think people raise that question because it was done -- it was announced, technically by the Budget Director, Russ Vought, and then the Energy Department announcement came a couple of hours later. But you're saying it was not tied to the government shutdown here in Washington?
[21:25:00]
WRIGHT: Yes, these are decision -- this is evaluations we've had ongoing, and we release these periodically. We released some announcements a few months ago. We'll have many more coming this fall.
COLLINS: OK. So, whether Democrats vote to reopen the government is not going to change, whether or not these projects are restored or the funding is changed, or anything like that?
WRIGHT: Huge amount of damage from the government -- shutting down the government. I don't want to elaborate how wide -- how wide that goes. But it's not new.
My department -- think of the Department of Energy, we have over 20 people confirmed by the Senate. I had two of them in at the start of September. Democrats have been very obstructive in our mission, at the Department of Energy, and to lower energy costs, and to make good decisions on projects. Shutting down the government certainly doesn't help either.
COLLINS: Yes, but a big part of messaging from the White House has been, Well, if these Senate Democrats don't want to feel this pain, then they should reopen the government.
But you're saying that, should they reopen the government tomorrow, for example, that the Department of Energy is not going to restore these contracts?
WRIGHT: No, these decisions are made, business decisions, on whether it's a good use of the taxpayer money or not. So no, these projects will not be restored.
COLLINS: Typically, when a government contract is awarded, as you know, it's legally binding, paperwork is signed. Some people may look at this and say, How is this administration making decisions on canceling grants, that have already been awarded, as a result of a bipartisan law that was passed by members of both parties up on Capitol Hill? WRIGHT: So first of all, all of them have cancelation clauses, you know? If they're not in the interest of the taxpayers, if they're not good expenditure of money, you always have the ability to cancel these projects.
A lot of them also have milestones. A number of these companies have gone bankrupt. They failed in Milestone 1. They still want to get funded in Milestone 2. Late in delivering paperwork. So, there is a long list of problems with projects that get canceled.
The majority of the projects we've reviewed have continued to get funded.
COLLINS: And do you intend to put out a complete list of every project in which state that you are canceling? Because I don't think we've seen a comprehensive one, so far, from the Department of Energy.
WRIGHT: No, because the projects are still under review, and the projects -- most of the decisions have not been released yet.
COLLINS: But how do people know--
WRIGHT: But at the end of the day, they'll all be released, of course.
COLLINS: What's your timeline for that? Because I think some people may say, Well, is the one being canceled in my state? Or what does this look like?
WRIGHT: It's all in the next few weeks. This has been thousands of work hours to evaluate all of these projects.
Just an incredible irresponsible deployment of taxpayer money. I mean, should American taxpayers really fund decarbonizing Uber Eats in San Francisco? Or building e-bike lanes in Portlandia? $600 million to further subsidize construction of unreliable, expensive electricity sources in California? California can do what it wants, but 49 other states' taxpayers shouldn't be subsidizing that.
COLLINS: Well, I mean, it's a law that was appropriated by Congress. It's funding that was passed by Democrats and Republicans.
But when people look at what was released, according to the Budget Director, where these contracts are being canceled, if you look back at the most -- the majority of the clean energy investments from the Biden era, they were actually done in states that Donald Trump won election in.
But all of the contracts that we're told that are being canceled that were listed by the Budget Director are states that Kamala Harris won. So, are you punishing only blue states?
WRIGHT: Not at all. This is a partial list of an ongoing process. More project announcements will come.
COLLINS: Well, I ask because there's a Hydrogen Hub in the Pacific Northwest. They saw a huge grant being canceled, probably one of the biggest projects that you canceled so far.
But there's other hubs, hydrogen hubs in Republican-controlled states, like West Virginia, Texas, Louisiana. Those were not affected.
Why was the one in the Pacific Northwest canceled, but not the ones in those Republican states?
WRIGHT: The decisions on the others haven't been announced yet. That's just an evaluation that was made. They're announced as the evaluations get done. Think--
COLLINS: Do you believe--
(CROSSTALK)
WRIGHT: California already has the most expensive electricity in the country by a factor of two? Hydrogen? Are they trying to get to a factor of five? What's the agenda there? But all of the hydrogen hubs are being evaluated through the same critical lens.
COLLINS: Well, I think people might look at this and say, Well, actually, my electricity bills, my utilities, are going up. Is canceling all these projects going to only make that worse?
WRIGHT: No, quite the opposite. Putting -- everything that's done to -- why has electricity prices gone up so much in the last four years? You could only permit wind, solar and expensive transmission facilities that ultimately go into the rate base of ratepayers.
So, there's a lot of inertia, unfortunately, still in the electricity system. Everything we're doing is to reverse the upward pressure on electricity prices and drive downward pressure. You spend a billion dollars on hydrogen, you're going to spend a billion dollars of taxpayer money, and then have more expensive energy bills afterwards.
COLLINS: So, when it comes to those other hydrogen areas that I talked about, in West Virginia, in Texas and Louisiana, are you saying that those are on the table for cancelation, potentially as well?
WRIGHT: Well, absolutely. All -- all projects, 2,400 projects, have been evaluated at the Department of Energy on grants.
[21:30:00]
COLLINS: And you're not only canceling ones in blue states. You're saying they just happened to all be in blue states so far?
WRIGHT: They haven't all been in blue states so far.
COLLINS: Well, every state that Russ Vought listed in his tweet last night is a state--
WRIGHT: You know it's--
(CROSSTALK)
COLLINS: --that Kamala Harris won.
WRIGHT: We've announced project cancelations before that in red and blue states. And as this fall goes on, you'll see cancelations in red and blue states.
COLLINS: So, you say--
WRIGHT: We got to save Americans' money.
COLLINS: You say this isn't tied to -- well, Congress passed this money, of course, as you know. But you say this is not tied to the government shutdown, right?
WRIGHT: These cancelation decisions? Absolutely not tied to the government shutdown.
COLLINS: One thing we've seen the White House warn about, during this shutdown, is that there could be layoffs of federal workers, not just people being furloughed, but people being permanently laid off from their job.
Have you been told by the Budget Director that that could happen at your department?
WRIGHT: Everyone is in dialogs about what's the right thing to do. My biggest concern, for sure, is the Nuclear National Security Administration within my department. We have eight days of funding left. This is what maintains the United States' nuclear stockpile. This is--
COLLINS: And what happens if you run out of money?
WRIGHT: We have to go into an emergency shutdown program to keep a limited number of people, to make sure our weapons are safe. But it's highly disruptive to our operations that we'd have to reassemble again. To me, it's just crazy.
Look, a majority in the House of Representatives, bipartisan majority, a bipartisan majority in the Senate, both passed a simple, clean resolution to keep the government running.
COLLINS: Yes.
WRIGHT: Chuck Schumer is worried about his left flank and is willing to put at risk Americans' jobs in the country, to protect his own political future?
What about Americans? What about our nuclear security?
COLLINS: The President said, earlier, he was going to be meeting with Director Vought, to talk about what is going to be funded in these agencies if people are going to be laid off. He referred to them as Democrat agencies.
Do you consider the Energy Department to be a Democrat agency? WRIGHT: No, look, the agencies have missions. But 92 percent of Washington, D.C., voted for Kamala Harris. So, this is the most Democratic concentrated place in the United States, by far. So, you want to--
COLLINS: But every agency is being run by a Trump-picked Cabinet Secretary, right?
WRIGHT: 100 percent. I -- 100 percent. Now, the agencies are run by this administration, they're run by a different administration another time. But the employees and agencies, are they dominantly Democrats? It's Washington, D.C., of course they are.
But we run the Energy Department for the interests of the American people. We have one agenda. Drive down the price of energy in the United States, keep our nuclear stockpile safe, and create innovation and opportunity to drive our economy forward. That's my agenda, seven days a week. To have it interrupted right now, to have the Democrats drag their feet and not approve the people?
Head of IBM Research left his job to come run the Undersecretary for Science at my department. He left his job in January. He only came in a week ago, because the Democrats wouldn't confirm him. Crazy. Confirmed by bipartisan votes. So--
COLLINS: And have you all had meetings, here at the White House, about what to do for your agencies, going forward, if the government shutdown continues?
WRIGHT: Absolutely there's contingency discussions going on. As you say, the more it goes, the more the ramifications are. We can't spend money that's not allocated.
COLLINS: Energy Secretary, Chris Wright, thank you for your time.
WRIGHT: Thanks for having me.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: And while we were at the White House today, the House Speaker, Mike Johnson, wasn't the only person we spotted there coming in the door of the West Wing. The President's handpicked U.S. Attorney, who brought those charges against the former FBI Director, James Comey, was also seen walking into the West Wing. We'll talk about that, and more, with Maggie Haberman at The New York Times, next.
[21:35:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Welcome back to Capitol Hill, where we are covering, and now one day and 21 hours into the government shutdown that has no clear path out, this evening.
But despite the shutdown, we've seen the White House still buzzing with a lot of activity today, as they're also messaging and dealing with that aspect of the shutdown.
This afternoon, at the White House, our team spotted the acting U.S. Attorney, Lindsey Halligan, walking into the West Wing. Of course, that comes days after she was handpicked to be put in that role, where she then subsequently brought charges against the former FBI Director, James Comey.
It was just over a week ago, when the President had publicly urged the Justice Department to prosecute James Comey, and his other political opponents.
Joining me now is the White House Correspondent for The New York Times, Maggie Haberman, who is also the Author of "Confidence Man: The Making of Donald Trump and the Breaking of America."
And Maggie, I just wonder what you make of Lindsey Halligan walking into the West Wing. She worked there until a few weeks ago -- till a few days ago. So, it's not that surprising she knows her way around there -- around there, quite well.
But having someone in such a sensitive position, who is in charge of such a sensitive prosecution, obviously, typically would be off- limits.
MAGGIE HABERMAN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, THE NEW YORK TIMES: Right. Kaitlan, number one there is the prosecution that she was put in that role, clearly, to make happen, which was the James Comey prosecution, that we saw the indictment come down just last week.
The role she is in, overseas an office where James Comey is not the only investigation that President Trump has been interested in. There has been one into Letitia James, the New York Attorney General, who brought a successful civil fraud trial suit against President Trump, and his business, and we know that she has been a target of his for retribution. We also know that that case was not believed by career prosecutors in that office to be viable at trial.
[21:40:00]
And so, it is notable that she is coming in, not just as this Comey case is continuing, and there are questions about how that will go forward. But also, what will happen with this other item on Trump's personal agenda, where he would like to see one of his perceived political enemies prosecuted.
COLLINS: Yes, just to be that close, as the White House has tried to put any kind of distance between them would belie belief.
HABERMAN: Yes.
COLLINS: But as this comes, you know, obviously the White House has been dealing with the government shutdown. It's very quiet here on Capitol Hill tonight, I'll say, because basically no negotiations are happening in any real way that we've heard of.
I wonder what you make of how the White House is feeling about whether or not this is working out in their -- in their favor at all.
HABERMAN: The White House has been projecting great optimism, and more than optimism, confidence, Kaitlan, that this is going to wrap up in the next couple of days.
They believe, whether -- I don't know what their evidence for this is, but they believe that they are seeing some signs that the Democrats will come toward them. We have seen -- I have certainly seen no signs of that in my own discussions and reporting. But we will -- we will see where this is in a few days.
I will say that even some Republicans were quietly frustrated by President Trump's social media post, highlighting Russ Vought's connection to Project 2025. Even though the notion, that the President had no idea what Project 2025 was during the campaign, was absurd, or that he didn't know the people who were involved with it was absurd.
It was not actually his campaign's platform. It also -- but there was overlap between his campaign's advisers, or some of their advisers, and the people who worked on Project 2025. It was also an unpopular agenda item, in a lot of polling, just objectively unpopular. And that was part of the reason why you saw the Trump campaign trying to distance him from it.
Now, he's just openly talking about it, and it is just providing fresh fodder for Democrats, who the White House had been trying to blame for the fact that the shutdown exists in the first place. This complicates that. And it's not the first time, Kaitlan, as you know, that we have seen President Trump make life harder for his own aides during a shutdown.
COLLINS: Yes, and he was calling it, saying they were going to evaluate Democrat agencies.
HABERMAN: Yes, right.
COLLINS: I mean, every single federal agency is run by someone the President handpicked to be in that role.
HABERMAN: Right.
COLLINS: I mean, we just pointed that out to his Energy Secretary.
HABERMAN: Well, yes, there's no -- there's no--
COLLINS: Maggie, you know the President knows--
HABERMAN: --there's no agency -- there's no -- yes, there's no agencies in the executive branch that are Democrat agencies.
But go ahead, sorry.
COLLINS: Right. I mean, and also, they have, you know -- it's not even just the leadership. They have gone through to make sure people who work in the State Department are loyal to them--
HABERMAN: Correct.
COLLINS: --and all these other agencies.
HABERMAN: Correct.
COLLINS: Maggie, you know, as well as I do, that if the President wants to find a camera, he can certainly get in front of one. He knows how to put a message out there.
HABERMAN: Right.
COLLINS: What do you make of the fact that he has not been in front of the cameras? He's only done one interview since this government shutdown began.
HABERMAN: I think that he is listening to his advisers who are trying to keep him from being the face of it.
Again, going back to the last time that there was a government shutdown, he was president, and this was in 2019, and he was on camera, saying, Let -- something to the effect of, Let there be a shutdown. So, he is practicing his own personal messaging a little better, I would say, up until that Truth Social post, which was not that.
COLLINS: Yes, he said he would own the shutdown in 2019--
HABERMAN: Correct.
COLLINS: --that he was proud to own it.
HABERMAN: Correct.
COLLINS: Because he believed it was worth that fight--
HABERMAN: Right. And--
COLLINS: --for the people (ph).
HABERMAN: That's right. And look, he may end up owning it this time too. I think we don't know exactly how this is going to play out. But we are talking about something that affects real people's lives in political terms. They will decide -- voters will decide what they end up thinking of it. But, right now, it's not at all clear how this is going to play out.
COLLINS: Yes, And I'm also curious if on the health care subsidies that we've been talking about. As Paul Begala was noting, those affect Democrats and Republican voters alike, if they're paying more for their premiums.
And JD Vance was saying the other day that some of the stuff that the Democrats were saying was reasonable.
I also kind of wonder if there's any chance he would make any kind of agreement or strike an agreement with Democrats on that? HABERMAN: It's a great question. I mean, look, as you and I both know, something that can be deemed as impossible or objectively bad by one party or the other can -- and particularly with this White House, can then seem advantageous, a few days later.
So, I don't know what, if any, compromise can be made, or will be made. But it is certainly correct that government subsidies for health care programs do impact a wide swath of voters, and at some point--
COLLINS: Yes.
HABERMAN: --voters from both parties are going to make that clear.
COLLINS: Maggie Haberman, as always, it's great to have your reporting here on the show. Thank you.
HABERMAN: Thanks, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: Up next. It's a text message between two of the President's Cabinet Secretaries, and what it shows us about their own concerns about tariffs and policies that could be hurting American farmers.
[21:45:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, President Trump says that the money the U.S. makes from tariffs, which is paid for by American consumers or businesses, could be used to bail out America's soybean farmers, as his trade war with China is pushing the $60 billion industry to the brink.
Beijing was once the biggest buyer of American soybeans, purchasing $12.5 billion worth of them last year. But the USDA data reveals that China has actually not bought a single American soybean for months. The last purchase was actually all the way back at the end of May, as the President's trade war started to ramp up.
Today, the Treasury Secretary, Scott Bessent, claimed during a May meeting that he had with Chinese officials, they blamed something else.
[21:50:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCOTT BESSENT, UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY: At the meeting in Geneva, when I asked them, Why didn't you continue buying soybeans and the other products? They had one word. Guess what it was? Biden.
JOE KERNEN, "SQUAWK BOX" CO-ANCHOR, CNBC: Biden. Well, that sounds like malarkey. Come on, man.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Malarkey or not, American farmers are suffering as a result of this. That's only become more obvious, after the White House announced that the U.S. would bail out Argentina to the tune of $20 billion, while in tune -- while in turn, Argentina is selling its soybeans at a cheap price to? You guessed it. China.
It's a dynamic that the President's Cabinet seems worried about tonight. If you look at this picture that was taken by an AP camera, an AP photographer, of Secretary Bessent's phone, at the United Nations, last week, you can see this text from a contact named BR.
Presumably that is the Agriculture Secretary, Brooke Rollins, who appeared to write, based on this picture, We bailed out Argentina yesterday, and in return, Argentina removed their export tariffs on grains, reducing the price and sold a bunch of soybeans to China at a time when we would normally be selling to China.
The message ends with, Soy prices are dropping further because of it. This gives China more leverage on us.
Joining me tonight on this very important topic is Caleb Ragland, a Kentucky farmer, and also the President of the American Soybean Association.
And so, it's so great to have you here, sir.
Because I just think when you put this all in perspective--
CALEB RAGLAND, PRESIDENT, AMERICAN SOYBEAN ASSOCIATION, SOYBEAN FARMER: Good to be here.
COLLINS: --I'm curious what you're hearing from fellow soybean farmers, tonight, about how they're feeling right now.
RAGLAND: Well, our half a million soybean farmers, across this country, feel the need for markets and for opportunities. And right now, our largest export market in China is a zero buyer. They buy as many soybeans as all of our other export markets combined. And right now, with them having not entered into purchase U.S. soybeans, it is hurting prices, and it is causing lots of uncertainty for our industry as a whole.
Soybeans are the largest ag product that is exported from the United States. So, this is a big deal, biggest customer of our biggest ag product.
COLLINS: And so, what do you do? I mean, if you find yourself in this situation, and China, your biggest buyer of what you're selling, isn't buying anything, but they are buying cheap soybeans from Argentina? I mean, what is -- what's a farmer left to do here?
RAGLAND: Well, what we need to do is implore our politicians to get policy in place, so that we have a level playing field. Because you saw a microcosm of what would happen here in the U.S., if the tariffs were removed and we had equal footing with Brazil, for example. The same thing happened when the export tax was taken away in Argentina. They had new opportunity when the playing field was level and they sold a bunch of soybeans. We would do the same thing, if the tariffs were removed, and we could compete fairly. And that's what we want our government to do, is give us the opportunity to compete. American farmers are the best in the world. We produce the cheapest, the safest, the most abundant food supply in the world. And when we have a level playing field, we're going to win, and that's what we need, is the opportunity to win--
COLLINS: Yes.
RAGLAND: --through free and fair trade.
COLLINS: How does a farmer take it, when the President says that he might be willing to give some of the money the U.S. makes from tariffs, which of course, come from -- from American consumers and buyers, that he says he would give it to them. Would they rather have a bailout? Or would they rather just be able to sell their product?
RAGLAND: Government payments and programs never make farmers' bottom line whole. It will oftentimes serve as a band aid on a wound, so to speak.
What we need is markets and opportunities, so we can actually make a profit and recoup the large investment that farmers have made. We have generations of equity invested in our operations, and we need the opportunity to get that back.
COLLINS: Caleb Ragland, I mean, I really appreciate that message. And this is a huge story. I know how impactful it is for people like you, and everyone in your association. So, thank you for coming on and talking about it tonight.
RAGLAND: Thanks for the opportunity, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: Really appreciate that.
We'll stay on top of that very important story, and what is happening with America's soybean farmers.
Up next here for us. Also, Tony Shalhoub, who is the Emmy-winning actor, he's taking on a new role as a food traveler, and he's got a brand-new series, airing right here, on CNN. I'm going to give you a teaser, right after this.
[21:55:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: In the brand-new CNN Original Series, "Tony Shalhoub Breaking Bread," you're going to take a trip around the world with the Emmy- winning actor, to discover how bread connects all of us. His first stop is none other than New York City.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TONY SHALHOUB, AMERICAN ACTOR (voice-over): Mary O's Irish Soda Bread Shop is the neighborhood's worst-kept secret. The instant I walk in, I'm drawn to the flour-dusted proprietor herself.
MARY O'HALLORAN, PROPRIETOR: Welcome to Mary O's.
SHALHOUB (on camera): Thank you. I have to admit, I've never had an Irish--
O'HALLORAN: Don't tell me you've never had an Irish soda bread. Is that what you're going to tell me?
SHALHOUB (on camera): I am going to tell you that.
O'HALLORAN: Shame on you (ph).
SHALHOUB (on camera): I think I might have heard about it. But is it sort of like in a far-off galaxy? I am.
O'HALLORAN: It's not any far-off galaxy.
SHALHOUB (on camera): No--
O'HALLORAN: It's from Ireland, you know?
SHALHOUB (on camera): Well--
O'HALLORAN: Ireland (ph).
Come, look.
SHALHOUB (voice-over): You won't find pages of menu options here. It's either the loaf or the scone. I love simplicity.
SHALHOUB (on camera): So, there's a difference between Irish soda bread and the Irish soda bread scone?
O'HALLORAN: Right.
[22:00:00]
SHALHOUB (on camera): So, you're giving me a scone too?
O'HALLORAN: Yes.
SHALHOUB (on camera): So, they're not -- yes, they're not -- they're like, more like a muffin shape, not a traditional scone.
O'HALLORAN: Don't use the word, muffin.
SHALHOUB (on camera): OK.
O'HALLORAN: They're not a muffin.
SHALHOUB (on camera): I never said the word, muffin.
O'HALLORAN: A scone--
SHALHOUB (on camera): And we're just going to edit that out. O'HALLORAN: Yes.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: If that didn't make you hungry, "Tony Shalhoub Breaking Bread" premieres this Sunday, at 09:00 p.m. Eastern, only here on CNN, and it certainly will.
Thank you so much for joining us tonight, live here on Capitol Hill.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts now.
