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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Trump Declares "The War In Gaza Is Over"; Obama To Dems: "You Can't Just Be A Scold All The Time"; Sources: Prosecutors Met To Finalize Potential Bolton Indictment. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired October 13, 2025 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: New action by Lindsey Halligan, a former personal attorney for President Trump, who is now his handpicked choice for U.S. Attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia.
Maggie Cleary, a senior prosecutor in that office, was removed from the job. That's according to two people familiar with the matter. Cleary sided with prosecutors who opposed bringing the case against former FBI Director James Comey. She is now one of five career prosecutors who have either been fired or resigned, since Halligan took over.
And Halligan may not be done. A source says she's interested in moving around prosecutors, who she believes may oppose her work on other high-profile cases.
That's all for us tonight. "THE SOURCE" starts right now.
DANA BASH, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: A historic day, as every living hostage is back home in Israel, and President Trump declares an end to the war in Gaza.
I'm Dana Bash in for Kaitlan Collins, who is on her way back from Israel. And this is THE SOURCE.
738 days after the nightmare of October 7th, that barbaric attack on Israel, tonight, finally, Hamas and its allies are not holding any living hostages in Gaza. The future remains far from certain. But today is a day so many have been waiting and praying for, marked with celebrations, big and small.
The last 20 living hostages returned from Gaza, making way for jubilant scenes and tearful reunions in Israel.
Eitan Mor was working as a security guard at the Nova music festival on October 7th, 2023. This was the moment his parents saw him for the first time, since then.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (FOREIGN LANGUAGE).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (FOREIGN LANGUAGE).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH: In exchange for 20 living hostages, and another 28 or so believed to be dead, Israel released some 1,900 Palestinian prisoners, including 250 people serving life sentences for attacks on Israelis. 1,700 others were seized from Gaza during the war, and were being held without charges.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SAMER HALABIYA, RELEASED PRISONER (through translator): It's an indescribable feeling. I still cannot believe it. Thank God. We used to wait for this joy to happen, but I am not feeling it because it was a big surprise. We faced an extreme psychological pressure, and one could not believe until last second.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH: In the Gaza they return to, Hamas forces are still terrorizing and executing Palestinians.
And it will take time, a lot of time, and dedication, and resources, to clear the rubble and restore critical services.
For President Trump, this was a day unlike he has seen as president.
In Hostage Square in Tel Aviv, crowds cheered, waving flags and chanting, Thank you, Trump.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(VIDEO - ISRAELI CROWDS CHANT "THANK YOU TRUMP" AS HOSTAGES RETURN)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH: And President Trump, who, as we speak, is flying back here to Washington, relished the reception.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: It's a long day, and we did a couple of big ones. That first one was getting -- it's getting great reviews. I will tell you. There's a lot of meat in there. They're dissecting it and just playing it all night long. It's been, it's been very good. I think it's a very -- it's a very important day, because nobody thought this was possible.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH: Reveling in the moment, trademark Trump was on display in a long and winding speech to the Israeli Knesset, some norm-busting insults of his Democratic predecessors, some humor, and a lot of confidence that this deal is going to stick.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: This is the end of the age of terror and death, and the beginning of the age of faith and hope and of God. It's the start of a grand concord and lasting harmony for Israel and all the nations of what will soon be a truly magnificent region. I believe that so strongly. This is the historic dawn of a new Middle East.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH: The reality is Israeli troops remain in parts of Gaza as part of the ceasefire deal. They've pulled back to a new defensive line. But the threat of renewed fighting hangs in the air, as key questions remain unanswered for how to make this peace permanent.
More than two dozen heads of state rushed to attend a summit, in Egypt, where we witnessed the President sign, what the White House called, the Trump Peace Agreement.
[21:05:00]
Noticeably absent were some key leaders, including either side actually engaged in the war. The fact that that was the case did not stop President Trump from making this declaration.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: After years of suffering and bloodshed, the war in Gaza is over.
This is going to be the greatest deal of them all, not just nation building, not just having to do with this or the political whims. This will be maybe the greatest deal of them all. Period.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH: My lead source tonight is the former Israeli Ambassador to the U.S., Michael Oren.
Thank you so much for being here, Mr. Ambassador.
I got a friend -- a message from a friend, in Israel, who said she hadn't cried this much since October 7th. But she said that these tears taste different.
Can you describe this day?
MICHAEL OREN, FORMER ISRAELI AMBASSADOR TO THE U.S.: It tastes very different, Dana.
Thank you. Thank you for hosting me.
We were discussing this before I went on the air, is that every time we see these pictures of the hostages being reunited with their parents and their families, we break out crying. And no matter how many times you see it, it's the same emotional impact. Deep, passionate emotion. And it's difficult, sometimes, to explain to people who don't live in Israel what the redeeming of hostages mean to us. It's deeply ingrained in our culture and our society, even in our traditions. It's in the Bible.
And there's a price to be paid. As your reporter noted, we had to release 250 terrorists who have killed dozens and dozens of Israelis. We had to release over a 1,000 prisoners of war. These are literally prisoners of war. And to get -- and many of these people may go back to committing terror. We know that Yahya Sinwar, the architect of October 7th, the chief of Hamas, was released in an earlier exchange for a hostage. So, it's a huge risk, but it's a risk at a price that Israelis overwhelmingly are willing to pay.
And it's an extraordinary moment. And yes, it's true, we have to see what happens, what happens in the next phases of this American initiative, which in many ways, has no precedent.
BASH: And let's talk about what's next, on what was the battlefield and with the prospect for peace in a second.
But I do want to ask about the remaining hostages. CNN is reporting that Israel assessed that Hamas might not be able to find and return the deceased hostages. What is your latest understanding of that situation?
OREN: It was almost expected, I must say. Hamas is a terrorist organization, deals not just with physical terror, but emotional and psychological terror. And they're going to say an excuse, Well, we can't find them, which I think is a very lame excuse.
The agreement that we have under the 20th point -- 20 points with the Trump administration is that Hamas has 72 hours to reach -- to return all of the hostages, living and deceased. They returned four bodies today, four remains. I know two of those families, personally. I know the agony they go to, by not having that closure, not being able to give their loved ones a burial in the land of Israel. It is excruciating.
And I'm wearing this, this pin, which is the hostile -- the hostage yellow ribbon pin, and I will continue reading it -- wearing it until, and I believe all Israelis will, until the last of those remains of the -- of the deceased hostages will be reunited with their families.
BASH: Since the IDF pulled back the defensive positions on Friday, Hamas has been carrying out a wave of killings. Fellow Palestinians. Some include rival factions. Dozens of them executed.
Hamas is, of course, degraded, but still very obviously armed and dangerous. What does that tell you about the reality, going forward?
OREN: Going forward is that the next phase is the crucial phase. Especially, all the other phases of the Trump peace plan, the 20 points, are contingent of fulfilling the next phase, which is disarmament of Hamas, taking the guns away from Hamas. Now, Israel's military options are much, much more limited now. The population of Gaza -- civilian population of Gaza, has returned to the northern part of the strip. Hamas has that -- that's human shield again. Hamas still has 50 percent of its tunnels, and we're talking about 500 kilometers of tunnels that it had on October 7th, and it has the guns.
So, getting Hamas without a strong military pressure on Hamas will not be easy, but it's not impossible, Dana. The Trump team and our allies in the region, have many tools at their disposal. They can cut off arms, cut off cash payments to Hamas, and most importantly, can cut off Hamas' access to humanitarian aid. Hamas steals about 60 percent of all that humanitarian aid and resells it back to the Gaza population at exorbitant prices and enriches itself.
We can choke Hamas off. And together, with pressure from Qatar, from Trump, from Turkey, which are Hamas' major patrons in the region, I believe Hamas can be persuaded to maybe, maybe dismantle their military infrastructure.
BASH: And what about Israel? What should Israel's role inside Gaza be, with regard to rebuilding, and also with regard to safety and security, and keeping -- keeping peace?
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OREN: Well, right now, as you mentioned, Israel maintains defensive positions within Gaza, actually in 43 percent -- 43 percent of Gaza, and is poised for the possibility of a renewed fighting with Hamas. And Israel will certainly reserve that right.
But if Hamas can be disarmed, if an international peacekeeping force can move into Gaza and begin the reconstruction of Gaza, and the de- radicalization of the Gaza population, which has been educated now for almost an entire generation, to carry out events like October 7th, Israel should cooperate a 100 percent.
BASH: But can I just ask you--
OREN: As it is Israel's paramount strategic and moral interest to do so.
BASH: Forgive me. You say, a peacekeeping force. That's pretty precarious when you're talking about people who are terrorists, who are still armed there. It's not peacekeeping quite yet.
OREN: That's an excellent point, because -- that's an excellent point, because we know, alas, in the Middle East, that peacekeeping forces only work when there's no peace really to keep.
And this is not really a peacekeeping force. It's a stability force. And I don't think any country is going to give its citizens, its soldiers, to that force, if Hamas still has its guns. They're not willing to die for Gaza. They're willing to help rebuild Gaza, to give Gaza, life. And therefore, before any international stability force can move into there, Gaza has to be demilitarized. BASH: Ambassador Michael Oren, it is a really momentous day, and I'm really honored that you shared it with us tonight. Appreciate it.
OREN: An honor to be with you. Thank you so much. Thanks, Dana.
BASH: Thank you.
And now I want to bring in CNN Global Affairs Analyst, who served as Senior Adviser to the last four U.S. presidents and is very, very familiar with the region, Brett McGurk.
Thank you so much. I'm so glad to have you here.
First, I just want to start with your personal observations, considering the fact that you were Senior Adviser to President Biden on October 7th, 2023, more than two years ago. Your thoughts, as you've been able to digest this day.
BRETT MCGURK, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST, LEAD U.S. NEGOTIATOR ON JANUARY CEASEFIRE, FORMER WHITE HOUSE COORDINATOR FOR THE MIDDLE EAST & NORTH AFRICA: Yes, and not only on October 7th, but through that entire crisis.
BASH: Yes.
MCGURK: Hostage deal we had in November. Early in the crisis, we got out over 100 hostages. And then we had that deal in place in January that got out all the older men, all women, all sick and wounded.
And the younger men, this most difficult category was for phase two. And the hope was that as phase one moved into phase two in March or April, that this would continue. That was kind of the design. Unfortunately, that did not happen.
But kind of where we are now, and I have to tell you, the last six months, it weighed on me deeply that these young men in these tunnels, and Hamas was using the propaganda, particularly Evyatar David and the image of him digging his own grave. And I was deeply, deeply concerned for the fate of the hostages.
So, to see this day -- and you're right. I've been watching these videos all day. It's hard to keep it together. Honestly. It's an extraordinary, extraordinary day. And yes, there's a lot of work to do here, OK? You've covered some of it. We can talk about it. But we should not lose sight of what happened today.
And the Ambassador is right. I really -- I know Steve Witkoff and Jared and the team, they did extraordinary work. This is heroic, difficult work. It is a thankless task, until it finally comes together.
And it's a great day for the United States of America. And I think it sets the potential, the potential, the bridge to a longer-term peace. But we're not there yet. There's a lot of work to do here. But it's a -- it's an incredible day. Hostages home. Guns are silent, except for Hamas' guns. As you've said, they're terrorizing Palestinians as they do. But it's a hopeful day in the Middle East. You don't get many of those.
BASH: No, you don't. And I totally agree with you that it's important to take a breath, take a moment and mark that.
MCGURK: Yes.
BASH: Because the Middle East is what it is. I do want to look ahead and sort of pick up on what I was talking about with the Ambassador.
And I want to read you something that Lindsey Graham, who is Senator from South Carolina, very close ally of Donald Trump, said. He praised the President, and everything that you just said about how extraordinary this deal is. But he also had words of caution, and I'm going to read some of it to you.
Disarming Hamas and making sure they never have a voice in the future of Gaza is going to require efforts by the region never known before. President Trump has set the conditions for this historic change. It's up to the region and the rest of the world - working with President Trump - to make this happen. I firmly believe there will never be peace or coexistence with Hamas. They have to be dealt out of the game quickly.
How do you do that?
MCGURK: I'd tell you, I was in the George W. Bush White House. I was not working on this issue. On the day Hamas won an election, in 2005--
BASH: I remember that day. I was covering the Bush administration.
[21:15:00]
MCGURK: --I was in Stephen Hadley's office. I remember Condi Rice being there. That was a surprise. And Hamas then seized power violently. They threw members of the opposition, Fatah party, other Palestinian party, off the roofs of buildings.
BASH: Yes.
MCGURK: In 2007, they seized power. And for the last 20 years, Hamas has been the power in Gaza.
And I have to say, the entire international community and the United Nations, and frankly, multiple presidential administrations, multiple Israeli administrations, accepted that status quo. And Hamas, with that status quo we know, built 300 miles of tunnels and multiple stories, prepared for what became October 7th, and prepared for this war.
Look, that can never happen again. I mean, what Senator Graham says there is right. If Hamas reclaims power in Gaza, there is no path to peace, none. And so, what -- but what has changed here is that consensus has totally flipped.
So, since that Israeli strike in Doha that did not succeed, you've seen this really remarkable rallying from the entire Arab region, Muslim-majority states, and they've said, Hamas, enough, it's over, you have to disarm and dismantle and demilitarize. That's a huge shift. Now that's not going to happen right away, but we have to keep that pressure on--
BASH: And--
MCGURK: --if we want any path to peace.
BASH: And that is what is necessary, right? I mean, obviously you have to--
MCGURK: Yes.
BASH: The President talked about Iran a lot today. Have to make sure that Iran doesn't resume funding Hamas, never mind Hezbollah in the north or inside Lebanon, but just staying with Gaza.
On the positive side. How do you get these Arab nations, which have not, until this point, been willing to give a lot of money or a lot of resources, or even the broader western world, when it comes to security and when it comes to economics.
MCGURK: Mind a little bit, it's a little apples and oranges, but the counter ISIS campaign, which I was also involved in it. It got to a point where ISIS would control areas with population, including in parts of cities. But then other areas would be controlled by local forces or other forces, and you could begin to move the population and begin to crack that -- that ability of a group like ISIS or Hamas to terrorize the population.
What we have in Gaza now -- and one reason this deal is so extraordinary, this deal would not have been possible a year ago. I mean that map, that line in Gaza, and Israeli forces basically controlling 53 percent of the Gaza Strip, if you look at the line, including, like, the entire what's left of the City of Rafah, it's huge.
So, you have the ability, if you can build the international security force, you can get the reconstruction going, and you'd really get the humanitarian aid going, to begin to crack that, control the population and move the population into safer areas. And then Hamas begins to wither and lose control. That's going to take time. But, I mean, that's what I see.
The days of like accepting Hamas in Gaza are over, and that consensus has to remain. Hamas is no longer a threat to Israel, but they are a threat to Palestinians in Gaza.
BASH: Yes.
MCGURK: And if they -- if they cling to power, which they clearly want to do, there's no path to peace, Israeli, Palestinian peace.
I think the outside play of the Abraham Accords, that's another story here, I think that agenda is back. It's going to take some time, but I expect to see that move ahead as well. BASH: Yes. What you just said is so important. Hamas is no longer, right now, a threat to Israel. They are a threat to the Palestinian people--
MCGURK: Yes.
BASH: --who have been through a lot--
MCGURK: Right.
BASH: --and still are.
Brett McGurk, nice to see you. Thank you so much.
MCGURK: Thanks, Dana.
BASH: In all of the happy news today, there is a lot, we want to show you one that is really heart-melting. It is the now-freed hostage, Omri Miran. He finally reunited with his wife, Lishay, and his father.
Omri has two young daughters he hasn't seen since he was taken hostage by Hamas terrorists, more than two years ago, when one of his daughters was only 6-months-old. Ever since then, for 738 nights, Omri's wife held out hope for herself and their young daughters, by going out under the stars, to wish Omri a good night.
Kaitlan spoke to Omri's brother-in-law about that nightly ritual.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: You told me something really beautiful when we first spoke, which was that with your two nieces, who were so young, and to think that they've gone two years without seeing their father, that she would take them out and look at the stars every night, and talk about your brother-in-law returning.
MOSHE LAVI, OMRI MIRAN'S BROTHER-IN-LAW: We're still doing it.
COLLINS: They still go out and look at the stars?
LAVI: Yes. It's a ritual for Roni. She's 4-years-old now. And we used to do it with her. And it's, for her, it's like a religious duty. I have to go and wish good night to the world, because her father also hears it, and somewhere in a tunnel in Gaza, he's wishing good night to her. That's the kind of bond she has. She dreams of Omri so many times.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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BASH: Tonight, we're happy to report Omri finally reunited with his children at Ichilov Hospital. And you can see them there, playing together, as a family, a family that can now watch the stars together. Up next. As President Trump gets bipartisan praise for the ceasefire deal, he is returning home to a government still shut down with no signs of a breakthrough. My political sources are here next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:25:00]
BASH: Tonight, some prominent Democratic leaders are sharing praise for President Trump and his team, following the release of the remaining living hostages held by Hamas. As his complex ceasefire deal faces a complicated but hopeful path forward.
Former President Joe Biden, who was in office, October 7th, 2023, said this tonight: I commend President Trump and his team for their work to get a renewed ceasefire deal over the finish line.
Former President Bill Clinton posted this: President Trump and his administration, Qatar, and other regional actors deserve great credit for keeping everyone engaged until the agreement was reached.
And from Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer. I commend the enormous advocacy of the tireless hostage families, President Trump, his administration, and all those -- excuse me -- all who helped make this moment happen.
My political sources tonight.
Former communications director for the DNC, Karen Finney.
And Republican strategist, Shermichael Singleton.
It's nice to share this nice evening with you.
SHERMICHAEL SINGLETON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Yes. Good to see you.
BASH: I feel like so much--
KAREN FINNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, SENIOR ADVISER, HILLARY CLINTON'S 2016 CAMPAIGN: Yes.
BASH: --doom and gloom, and we have some not just slivers of hope, but a giant opening of hope.
FINNEY: Yes.
BASH: Karen, I want to start with you on kind of the politics of this. There's the human side, and then there is the politics of this. And what do you make of the way that Democrat -- those Democrats who I talked to, and others, are approaching the reality right now--
FINNEY: Yes.
BASH: --that there is a ceasefire deal, which is a very, very good thing. FINNEY: It is a good thing. And tremendous credit does go to the Trump administration and to everyone, I think, as a number of them pointed out, who was part of this, because it's clear that the key to this deal are the Arab countries, other Muslim countries, where they are agreeing to be part of the solution. That is going to be critical.
And I'll tell you, as somebody who was there on the South Lawn when Bill Clinton, for the famous handshake, and the work that he tried to do, the question, I think, now -- it's a wonderful day, and it was wonderful to see people reunited with their loved ones.
But politically, I think the question -- and we'll see how much political capital President Trump will have to utilize, in the days and weeks and years ahead to keep this peace, to hold it. Because it's a 20-point plan, and we're on point one or two. And so, there's a lot of work that has to happen. And Netanyahu has been unpredictable. Hamas is evil, so. And then there's -- and so it's, you know, you're dealing with forces that are not reliable.
SINGLETON: I think Karen's 100 percent correct.
And if you all recall, last year, when your former boss, President Clinton, was campaigning for then-Vice President Harris, he stated that he tried to broker peace, got close.
BASH: It got really close.
FINNEY: Sure did.
SINGLETON: And the governing authorities at the time in Palestine, they weren't interested. They were not interested in wanting to have a brokered peace deal. And so, I do think this is going to take a lot of work, from the President and his administration. I know the American people are -- don't like the idea of regime change.
But to your point, Karen, which I think is a very solid one, how do you prolong peace, if Hamas remains the governing authority of the region? Do we somehow figure out a way to empower the Palestinian people to have a more free form of governance that can lead to prolonged peace? And if so, what does that look like, not only from the United States, but as the former President Clinton cited, other actors in the region, such as Qatar, maybe Saudi Arabia, Egypt, et cetera. So, this is going to be complicated. But I absolutely applaud the President.
BASH: And Karen, I don't need to tell you that this issue roiled the Democratic Party.
FINNEY: Yes.
BASH: You're starting to do it in the Republican Party now.
FINNEY: Yes.
BASH: But we'll see what happens there.
But certainly, politically, it was a -- it was a big challenge--
FINNEY: Yes.
BASH: --for President Biden, and then-candidate, Vice President Harris.
A lot of people calling for, Ceasefire now. And there's a ceasefire now.
FINNEY: Yes.
BASH: And I read some very prominent -- statements from prominent Democrats, saying, We're so glad this is happening. But there's also a very loud sound of silence from some of the people who were demanding a ceasefire.
FINNEY: Yes, I don't know quite what to make of that, to be honest with you. But I hope that they will find their voice and praise this moment, because there is a ceasefire.
And again, anybody who was part of that Ceasefire-now movement has to be part of keeping the peace. Part of -- we all have to be on board with a role in saying, we want to -- what can we do to hold the peace, right? We were talking about the political implications for Donald Trump. What's it going to cost the United States? At a minimum, if you were part of that movement, you should be saying, I will be part of the solution to help peace stay in the region.
[21:30:00]
SINGLETON: Yes, I think you're absolutely correct. I mean, I have been a very strong advocate for Jewish people and Israel. I consider myself to be a Zionist, in many ways, in part, because of my personal Christian faith.
But to Karen's point. Are there moments to be critical of people who are on the opposite side? Absolutely, and we're going to continue to have those conversations. But I do think that you did see a pretty large groundswell on the political left in our country, of people say, Look, we want peace. We want the ceasefire.
Well, it's here now. So now, I think it's incumbent upon Democratic leaders to transform that movement, to try to figure out a way to have conversations, to maintain, again, peace, which is so necessary here, Dana.
BASH: So, speaking of leaders, I'm just going to shift the topic slightly. President Obama was on a podcast, Marc Maron, and he had a lot to say. He, the former President. Let's just start with some of the things he said about the Democratic Party.
FINNEY: Sure.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, 44TH U.S. PRESIDENT: You can't just be a scold all the time. You can't constantly lecture people, without acknowledging that you've got some blind spots too.
And I think this was a fault of some progressive language, was almost asserting a holier-than-thou superiority that's not that different from what we used to joke about coming from, you know, the--
MARC MARON, HOST, WTF WITH MARC MARON PODCAST: The right.
OBAMA: --the right--
MARON: Yes.
OBAMA: --and the moral majority and, you know, our way--
MARON: Right. Where there's a--
OBAMA: --and a certain fundamentalism--
MARON: Yes.
OBAMA: --about how to think about stuff that I think was dangerous.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FINNEY: OK. Look, Democrats have been accused of talking down to people. I think part of the problem, though, is we stop talking to people after an election. We tend to -- there's a lot of communication during an election year, and then it kind of dips down, and people don't hear from us. That's part of why, in so many communities, particularly the black communities, we say, Don't just show up six weeks before an election. And so, to my mind, that's the bigger problem.
I'll let former President Obama and his team sort out the talking down to people of it all. I think, as a party, as the person who was the architect of 2006 wins, we got to talk to people all the time.
BASH: He didn't just -- that was like, maybe the one thing he said about Democrats.
Most of what he said, Shermichael was about--
SINGLETON: Oh, yes.
BASH: --was about your party, and the President, really saying you can't just be scared if you don't agree or let him -- him, meaning President Trump, from the perspective of Obama -- trample on rights, et cetera. You got to be out there and really encourage people not to stay silent.
SINGLETON: Sure. Look, I intellectually understand why there is resonance with that message on the ideological left.
However, I would argue that the slew of victories from Trump would suggest that that messaging isn't resonating with the American people, broadly speaking. And I think in part, is because of something that the President -- former President just stated about the plight of Democrats, and their inability to articulate things that matter, at a human-based level, to everyday people. And until they figure that out, that the fascism, authoritarianism, that may work in intellectual circles? It's not moving the needle with voters, though, I would argue.
BASH: We're out of time. Is this -- prediction on this shutdown and when it's going to end? I actually am a little bit surprised that we're still here, and the fact that we're here means it could be long.
FINNEY: I think it's when the President chooses to bring people to the table, to cut a deal. As he in 2013 accused Barack Obama of needing to do. He should listen to his own words.
SINGLETON: I would disagree here with my friend, Karen. But I would say, Republicans are open to negotiating. Let's just open up the government first.
BASH: All right. Thank you both. Nice to see you.
SINGLETON: Thanks, Dana.
BASH: And on Wednesday, speaking of the shutdown, Kaitlan Collins will be moderating a CNN Town Hall event with Bernie Sanders -- Senator Bernie Sanders, and Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. They are going to answer questions from Democrats, Republicans, Independents, and people who have been directly affected by this shutdown. Be sure to watch. It's this Wednesday, 09:00 p.m. Eastern, right here on CNN.
Up next here. New reporting about where the potential case against one of the President's former aides stand. My legal sources are next.
[21:35:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BASH: Tonight, a source tells CNN that Trump's Justice Department worked this weekend on a potential indictment, against former Trump National Security Advisor, John Bolton. This past Saturday, federal prosecutors met to finalize details of potential charges.
And we're learning, the DOJ even had internal discussions about whether Bolton, who, of course, is a now vocal Trump critic, would be perp walked or arrested in a way where he could be seen on cameras.
My legal sources tonight are:
Brendan Ballou, former Special Counsel at the Department of Justice.
And Elliot Williams, former federal prosecutor.
Hello, gentlemen. Nice to see you all.
Let's start with the Bolton of it all.
ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Yes.
BASH: What's your sense of where things stand, given the drips that we're getting?
[21:40:00]
WILLIAMS: Yes, well, it sounds like, based on what we're hearing, he might be charged with a crime.
Now, it's important to note, even if John Bolton is guilty as sin, perhaps he knowingly and with intent to retain documents, took them, copied them, trans -- whatever else he did? How seriously do we take these charges based on everything we've heard out of the Justice Department and the President for the last several months?
And this is the problem. Yes, he might be guilty, but it's hard to take the prosecution serious -- seriously now, and that's based on the President's own conduct and own statements, that call into doubt the integrity of any indictment, let alone one of somebody that the President has probably called for. And so, it's just -- the President's own actions have sort of put a pall over a lot of their prosecutions and investigations now, and it's just hard to know what to believe.
BASH: Yes. I mean, in that now-infamous Truth Social post, that's -- it started with Pam, colon, he named some of his perceived political enemies. John Bolton in that particular post was not one of them.
WILLIAMS: Right.
BASH: But he -- it's no secret that--
WILLIAMS: Oh, yes.
BASH: --he's not thrilled with his former National Security Advisor.
And just to kind of put a finer point on what's going on with John Bolton, we remember that his home and offices were searched in August. Federal investigators seized documents labeled, Secret, Confidential and Classified. Court records indicated that some were about weapons of mass destruction.
So, there are -- there's sort of retribution, and things that we've seen with Letitia James and James Comey, and this kind of thing where the Trump administration, DOJ would likely argue that -- they wouldn't say there's more meat on the bone.
WILLIAMS: Right.
BASH: But it looks like there could be more meat on the bone.
BRENDAN BALLOU, FORMER DOJ SPECIAL COUNSEL: Well, just to put a point on what Elliot was saying. Even if there is an underlying crime here? If the DOJ is pursuing this case, because it is a vindictive or selective prosecution? That case can get dismissed.
The Department of Justice has done itself absolutely no favors, by trying to indict all of Trump's political enemies all at once, which makes it more likely that a judge or jury is going to disbelieve the department.
WILLIAMS: And really--
BASH: OK.
WILLIAMS: And really quick one. When it comes to the possession of documents. We saw this with investigations into Donald Trump himself, but also Joe Biden and Mike Pence.
BASH: Joe Biden.
BALLOU: Yes.
WILLIAMS: It's also important to note that merely possessing the documents isn't the crime. The person has to have an intent to have retained them. And you don't have that in every case. It just remains to be seen what they have here--
BASH: Yes, I'm glad you brought that up. That's a good point.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
BASH: But speaking of indicted foes. Letitia James made her first public appearance since being indicted. She was campaigning with Zohran Mamdani in New York City. Let's listen to her message.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LETITIA JAMES, ATTORNEY GENERAL OF NEW YORK: You see, I know what it feels like to be attacked for just doing your job.
And I will not bow. I will not break. I will not bend.
(CHEERING)
JAMES: I will not capitulate. I will not give in. I will not give up.
You come for me. You got to come to all of us.
(CHEERING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH: Brendan?
BALLOU: One of the tough decisions that prosecutors are going to have to make, career prosecutors, is whether to join a case like this. You know? The power of the Department of Justice is the power of its credibility, and that credibility comes from line-level prosecutors, not from politicians. And so, when you see these apparently political prosecutions, it's going to be a tough decision for them to make.
BASH: OK. Thank you both. Nice to see you. Thank you.
WILLIAMS: Yes. BASH: And up next. Before she traveled to Israel, Kaitlan sat down with our colleague, Jake Tapper, to talk about his new book, "Race Against Terror." That interview is next.
[21:45:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: On October 1st, Michael Ben'Ary was fired from his position as a top national security prosecutor, after speculation that he was against James Comey's indictment.
Ben'Ary posted this note on his office door, and it read, quote, I am troubled that I was removed so abruptly in the middle of important work, including the prosecution of Mohammad Sharifullah -- also known as Jafar -- the only person to face justice in the United States for the bombing at the Abbey Gate of the Hamid Karzai International Airport.
That's the case that marks the second time a foreign terrorism suspect will be prosecuted in the United States criminal court, on charges related to killing American service members in a war zone.
Joining me now is Jake Tapper, whose brand-new book follows the first case of that kind. "Race Against Terror: Chasing an Al Qaeda Killer at the Dawn of the Forever War."
And I think your book is so timely with this firing, because I think it raises the questions of the impact that these firings have. It's a lot of names of prosecutors, people may not know. But they're working on deeply important things, behind the scenes.
JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR, AUTHOR, "RACE AGAINST TERROR": Yes, and that kind of expertise is really important. One of the things I learned, writing this book is, how important it is, to have these government officials, these prosecutors that who don't talk to us, who refuse to answer our calls and emails, but are doing incredibly important work.
In my book, in the case of Spin Ghul, the terrorist that I wrote about. He was the key national security official, in the Justice Department, who made sure that the indictment, that the extradition, that the trial and prosecution of Spin Ghul, this terrorist who had killed Americans and tried to blow up the U.S. Embassy in Nigeria, that it was airtight. It was -- his name was George Toscas.
And it was tougher to get something to Toscas, to get him to approve it, than the U.S. Attorney General, or the President even, like he was the key man. He was sidelined because, by the Trump administration, because he had signed off on the Mar-a-Lago search warrant. So there is a--
COLLINS: Wow.
[21:50:00] TAPPER: --a problem going on here where people who are perceived as President Trump's political enemies and -- and Ben'Ary, Michael Ben'Ary said this in his letter, it's more important to the people heading the Justice Department, he wrote, to go after Trump's political enemies, perceived political enemies, than to protect the American people, in a national security room. That's chilling.
COLLINS: It also makes you even wonder if they even understand who they're firing, or who they're letting go. Do they fully know this, and they're still weighing that, and saying, Well, it doesn't matter, we're going to get rid of them?
TAPPER: I think--
COLLINS: Or they're not even aware?
TAPPER: I think that they don't know how difficult it is. And I think you can see that in when Lindsey Halligan went and got the indictment of James Comey, one of the trial -- one of the charges was not accepted by the grand jury, and the other ones were accepted, but barely.
And one of the things about these trials that I've learned, by writing this book, is that they're incredibly difficult, to bring charges against a foreign terrorist for killing Americans, in a criminal court, for killing service members in a battlefield. That's not an easy lift.
COLLINS: Yes.
TAPPER: There's all sorts of questions of intelligence. How do you know this? What was the conditions under which he was arrested? Who did he confess to? And judges are inclined to uphold the Constitution, and even if that means that a terrorist might walk.
COLLINS: And so, as you were researching and writing this book, just given the timely nature of it. I mean, you've written a lot of books about so many different things. What made you want to do this one?
TAPPER: It was just such an interesting story. I was at my son Jack's birthday party, three years ago. And because it was so -- it was a paintball party, it was so far out in the middle of Virginia. I just had pizza and refreshments for the grownups too, so they didn't have to make the drive twice.
And one of the dads just struck up a conversation with me, and he started talking about this other book I'd written about Afghanistan. And I said, Yes, it was really tough to write that book because the military keeps such bad records and they -- and they don't share them.
And he said, Tell me about it, and then he starts telling me this story. He's an Assistant U.S. Attorney. He gets a call. The Italians have picked up this guy who claims he's al Qaeda. And they have a ticking clock. They have to prove a case against this guy before the Italians just essentially let him go free, because he hasn't done anything to them. COLLINS: Yes.
TAPPER: And so, it's this -- it was just the story of sleuthing that I just love from like, watching CSI or NCIS or Law & Order. But it was real, it was a true story, and it just, absolutely fascinating.
COLLINS: Wow. And that's how you -- that's how that turned into--
TAPPER: Yes.
COLLINS: --to the book that you're now publishing?
TAPPER: Strike up conversations at parties with people, ask them their best story. You might get a book out of it. That's my lesson.
COLLINS: That's fascinating.
TAPPER: Yes, isn't it?
COLLINS: Jake. Well, everyone should read it. The book is "Race Against Terror." And thank you for joining us.
TAPPER: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BASH: Up next. A historic day in the Middle East. And we want to take a moment to talk about exactly what happened during emotional moments like this.
[21:55:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BASH: While there are many questions about what comes next for the Middle East, after this historic day. It was also the end of a two- year nightmare for families.
Now, we want to take a moment for those powerful moments. CNN's Jeremy Diamond shares the emotional reunions.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Two years of pent-up anguish unleashed in an instant.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (FOREIGN LANGUAGE).
DIAMOND (voice-over): One after another, 20 newly-freed hostages and their families, hug, cry, kiss, scream and pray.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (FOREIGN LANGUAGE).
DIAMOND (voice-over): Reveling in their new almost unbelievable reality. Their nightmare is finally over.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (FOREIGN LANGUAGE).
DIAMOND (voice-over): These moments were never guaranteed. When Bar Kuperstein was kidnapped from the Nova music festival, his father was still paralyzed. He vowed he would embrace his son again on his own two feet.
EINAV ZANGAUKER, ISRAELI ACTIVIST: (FOREIGN LANGUAGE).
DIAMOND (voice-over): For Einav Zangauker, who became an icon in the hostage families' protest movement, this is the culmination of a relentless fight.
Israel's national nightmare is also now finally over. After 738 days, every single living hostage is now free. The open wounds that has been October 7th can now finally begin to heal.
For the hostages, the journey to freedom began in Red Cross vehicles, flanked by masked Hamas militants. An Israeli convoy completed the trip to a military base, near Gaza, where hundreds of Israelis lined the route.
DIAMOND (on camera): This liftoff is a moment, more than two years in the making, some of the last living Israeli hostages getting their own taste of freedom.
DIAMOND (voice-over): Newfound freedom filled with moments that seemed frighteningly out of reach, just weeks ago, like two former hostages embracing for the first time in years.
It was an emotional day in Gaza too, where more than 1,700 Palestinians detained without charge were finally freed. Tears of joy and questions answered, after months in the dark about their loved ones' fate.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (FOREIGN LANGUAGE).
DIAMOND (voice-over): Thank God for this blessing, this woman says, reuniting with her husband.
It's my birthday today, he says, tearing up. It's an indescribable feeling being here next to my wife. The Israelis may have destroyed Gaza, but they can't destroy us.
In the occupied West Bank, dozens of Palestinian prisoners serving long-term sentences also received a hero's welcome. They are among 250 high-security prisoners released as part of the deal, most of them tied to deadly attacks on Israelis.
For the Miran family and most Israelis, a price well worth paying, to make families whole again and give two little girls, their father back, after two long years.
Jeremy Diamond. CNN. Re'im, Israel.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BASH: What a day. What a day.
[22:00:00]
Later this week, on Wednesday, Kaitlan Collins will be here, and she'll be moderating a CNN Town Hall event, with Senator Bernie Sanders and Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. They will answer questions from Democrats, Republicans, Independents, and it will include people who have been directly affected by the shutdown. Be sure to watch, Wednesday, at 09:00 p.m. Eastern, right here on CNN.
Thanks so much for joining.
Kaitlan is back, tomorrow.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts right now.
