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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
House To Vote Next Week On Whether To Release Epstein Files; Grijalva Finally Sworn In, Paving Way For Epstein Files Vote; Live In Moments: President Trump Signs Bill To End Shutdown. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired November 12, 2025 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: --here's just part of it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KENNY CHESNEY, COUNTRY MUSIC SUPERSTAR: The more you live, the more you experience loss. And I have, over the last several years, I have lost friends that I've written songs with, that I've collaborated with, I've lost heroes, I've lost island friends.
And I don't think they're gone. They're here. They're here. And they're--
COOPER: You feel -- you feel them?
CHESNEY: I feel -- energetically, I feel them.
COOPER: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: You can watch the entire episode, CNN.com/AllThereIs. That's where you can also watch my new companion streaming show, "All There Is Live," which is on every Thursday, 09:15 p.m. Eastern Time, and you can catch old episodes there as well.
The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: As the record-setting government shutdown comes to an end, there's new drama here, on Capitol Hill, tonight, over those newly-released emails from Jeffrey Epstein, and what they say about Donald Trump.
I'm Kaitlan Collins on Capitol Hill. And this is THE SOURCE.
And as we come on the air tonight, from the U.S. Capitol, the House of Representatives has voted to finally reopen the federal government.
President Trump is expected to sign the bill, making it official, live this hour. We'll bring that to you when it happens inside the Oval Office shortly. And with this return to D.C., for the House, at least, comes new information about the story that the President has tried to shrug off, but just can't. Jeffrey Epstein mentioned Donald Trump by name, multiple times, in private emails, over the last 15 years.
Since we broke that news here, early this morning, the White House has been in damage-control mode, including a top-level meeting that happened inside the Situation Room. Yes, the national security nerve center, where officials once monitored the bin Laden raid, was used today as part of a pressure campaign to block the release of the Epstein files in the possession of the Department of Justice.
CNN's cameras spotted the Attorney General, Pam Bondi, actually leaving the White House, after that meeting between top officials, that included her, and the FBI director, and Republican congresswoman Lauren Boebert. It was the culmination of an ultimately unsuccessful effort to get Boebert and Congresswoman Nancy Mace, to change their votes, when it came to a discharge petition, here on Capitol Hill, to release the files that the DOJ has on Jeffrey Epstein.
The press secretary, described it, though, as a show of transparency, on their part.
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KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Doesn't it show transparency that members of the Trump administration are willing to brief members of Congress whenever they please? Doesn't that show our level of transparency? Doesn't that show the level of transparency when we are willing to sit down with members of Congress and address their concerns? That is the -- that's a defining factor of transparency. Having discussions -- having discussions with members of Congress about various issues.
And I'm not going to detail conversations that took place in the Situation Room.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: The White House did confirm CNN's reporting that that meeting was happening inside the Situation Room there.
And that meeting happened today, just a couple of hours, after we got new insight into the relationship between Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein.
It includes an email, that was turned over by Jeffrey Epstein's private estate to Congress, including one from April 2011, where Epstein wrote to Ghislaine Maxwell, this: I want you to realize that that dog that hasn't barked is Trump. Redacted spent hours at my house with him. He has never once been mentioned. Police chief, etc. I'm 75 percent there.
Ghislaine Maxwell responded, I have been thinking about that. Dot. Dot. Dot. Now, Democrats on the House Oversight Committee redacted the victim's name there. They said she was a victim of Jeffrey Epstein. That's why her name was not put out.
Republicans though, identified her as Virginia Giuffre. She is one of Jeffrey Epstein's most prominent accusers, who died by suicide in April, and wrote in her book about how her father worked as a maintenance worker at Mar-a-Lago, and when she was introduced to Donald Trump and described him as friendly.
In another email, this time when Trump was in office in 2019, in his first term, Jeffrey Epstein emailed the author, Michael Wolff, about Donald Trump, saying that he had asked Epstein to resign his membership at Mar-a-Lago.
Epstein wrote then and said, Trump said he asked me to resign, never a member ever.. of course he knew about the girls as he asked Ghislaine to stop.
That appears to be a reference to Maxwell recruiting employees at Mar- a-Lago, which the President has said he found out about and put a stop to.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: He took people that worked for me and I told him, don't do it anymore. And he did it and I said, 'Stay the hell out of here.'
REPORTER: Mr. President, did one of those stolen, you know, persons, does that include Virginia Giuffre?
TRUMP: I don't know. I think she worked at the spa. I think so. I think that was one of the people, yes. He, he stole her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:05:00]
COLLINS: In another email that was released today, Epstein wrote about a young woman that he claimed he and Donald Trump both dated in the 90s, with Epstein writing about his, quote, 20 year old girlfriend in 1993, and that Epstein, quote, Gave her to Donald.
Trump's association with Epstein has been long-known in public, and he has repeatedly denied any wrongdoing when it comes to the late sex trafficker.
But the President and his aides have been waging an intense pressure campaign that ultimately backfired, here on Capitol Hill tonight, where that petition to force a vote on the release of the Epstein files, now has all of the votes that it needs. The 218th vote came, courtesy of the newest member of the House, Congresswoman Adelita Grijalva, who was sworn in today, 50 days after winning her election.
Speaker Mike Johnson said tonight that that bill will get its vote, here on Capitol Hill, next week.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): It's a totally pointless exercise. It is completely moot now, we might as well just do it. I mean, they have 218 signatures, that's fine, we'll do it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: The two members of Congress who have been leading the charge, on this bill, are my sources on the Hill tonight.
Republican congressman, Thomas Massie.
And Democratic congressman, Ro Khanna.
And thank you both for being here, obviously, on a huge day for the two of you.
I'll ask you, since he's the Republican House Speaker. He's calling it totally pointless exercise and completely moot. What do you make of his comments? Do you agree with those?
REP. THOMAS MASSIE (R-KY): Well, the White House spent a lot of effort, in the midst of a shutdown, to stop a totally pointless exercise that's completely moot.
And by the way, I got to give credit to Lauren Boebert, to walk into the White House, the center of power of the free world, really, and to sustain that, and to come back out, and to be solid, and also to Nancy Mace and Marjorie Taylor Greene. There was all the speculation that they might take their names off, and they never did.
So, it's not a hoax. It's not a moot point. It is a very serious thing. There are a 1,000 victims, and there are survivors who have had a press conference with Ro Khanna, and I. And that's what we're fighting for, justice for them.
COLLINS: Did y'all talk to them at any point during this, as the White House was making clear they were targeting these members?
MASSIE: I talked to them. I don't want to say which one I had this conversation with. But one of them was told, We can't let Massie have a win.
How petty is that? I mean, this is more than about political wins. It's about getting transparency and justice, which, by the way, this administration promised. You have the Vice President, JD Vance. You have the A.G. You have the FBI director. They've all done a 180 on this.
COLLINS: So, the White House said to one of these members that they didn't want you to have a win here?
MASSIE: That's correct. COLLINS: I mean, what does that say to you, Congressman Ro Khanna, as to the White House's motivation here? I mean, I think so many people look at this and say, Why is the White House fighting this as hard as they -- as hard as they are, and taking Lauren Boebert into the Situation Room, which is incredibly unusual, based on my experience covering the White House.
REP. RO KHANNA (D-CA): They've really lost their way, because it was really Donald Trump -- and more than Donald Trump, JD Vance, who, in podcast after podcast, said, Release the Epstein files.
And I give credit, of course, to the courage of Marjorie Taylor Greene, Nancy Mace and Lauren Boebert. They met with the survivors. It was personal.
But I also give credit to Congressman Thomas Massie. I mean, he's got three billionaires, literally, pouring millions of dollars in his race against him, to take him out, simply because he wants these files released, which the President campaigned on.
You know what? The left and right are agreeing on one thing. It's time to get rid of the Epstein class, these rich and powerful people who rig the rules for themselves and ignore forgotten Americans.
COLLINS: So how many Republicans do you think are going to vote for this, next week, when Speaker Johnson brings it to a vote?
MASSIE: I think there's going to be a deluge of Republicans. The longer this goes on, the more support we gain. And I think the Speaker recognized that. And that's why, after months of trying to stop us, he's decided to accelerate the vote, because he knows we're going to get votes, and that's going to carry momentum into the Senate.
And that's why it's important to get a big vote in the House, for Ro and I on this measure, is because that's where it goes next, is the Senate.
COLLINS: Yes, so what happens here, when it goes -- if it passes, and it does have that deluge of Republicans? I know you said today, you thought 40 to 50 could potentially vote for it. Is that right?
KHANNA: Well, I think the Speaker has concluded, if you can't stop the parade, you might as well lead it. And so now he's saying, I want to have the vote.
I do think that you could get 30, 40, 50 Republicans voting for it. Because what are we talking about? We're talking about rich and powerful men, who abused young girls, and told people in junior high to go recruit others to be raped or abused. That's what we're talking about. And we're saying that these victims want to expose the men who did this to them. Some of these men still have buildings named after them. Some of them still have scholarships named after them. Enough.
[21:10:00]
And so, I think when it's actually a vote on the House floor, Do you want these files released? Republicans and Democrats are going to vote yes.
COLLINS: So, what does it say, if that happens, and there are that many people who are in the House who vote for it, and the Senate doesn't take it up?
MASSIE: Well, we used a discharge petition. This is a parliamentary procedure that's only available in the House. It's only been successful maybe 20 times in the history of our country. Like, we had a 4 percent probability, if you look at statistics, of getting this to the floor. But we succeeded.
COLLINS: Wow.
MASSIE: In the Senate, they don't have a discharge petition. But they do have other ways. Each senator is almost like their own Rules committee over there. And by being dilatory or accelerating the process for other senators, they can cajole them into getting votes. And I think we could see a vote on this in the Senate.
COLLINS: Why do you think the President keeps calling it a hoax, as he did again today? And he basically said, No real Republicans, no good Republicans that aren't stupid or bad would fall for this trap.
KHANNA: It's sad to me, because I actually didn't do this to score points against Donald Trump. I know Representative Massie didn't do it for that reason.
We did it because we heard the stories of these survivors, and we want justice for them. They're going to be out in front of the Capitol, again, on Tuesday. They were out about two months ago, and my guess is they're going to say the same thing. Mr. President, please meet with us. Listen to us. You can actually release these files.
And I rather Donald Trump do the right thing, even if he gets a political win, than for us to go on ignoring women who have been abandoned. Before Trump's presidency, these women have not had justice for decades.
COLLINS: So you're saying, it's bigger than Donald Trump?
KHANNA: It's much bigger than Donald Trump.
COLLINS: Because the White House is saying, this is something Democrats didn't talk about when Joe Biden was in office, which we've asked you about before, and said that that's -- that's the whole motivating factor here.
But you say that that's not the case for you either?
MASSIE: No. And think Ro can go back and find examples, where he talked about these files. I can go back in my social media, and show you examples, where I talked about these files needing to be released, before President Trump was the president.
And I don't think it's about Trump. I actually I looked at those--
COLLINS: Also so did President Trump, for the record.
MASSIE: Yes. He did, for the record.
COLLINS: He talked about the release (ph) of the files.
KHANNA: And JD Vance.
COLLINS: Yes. And members of the Cabinet.
MASSIE: I looked at those emails there, and I don't think that implicates Trump any more than he's already been implicated. And I don't think he's trying to protect himself, per se. I think he's beyond embarrassment.
Look, I was in an Oversight committee when we were arguing, should he have paid the prostitute he had an affair with, through campaign funds, or should he have used his personal funds. He's beyond embarrassment. That's what these files could present to him.
I think there are people, who are criminally implicated that aren't Donald Trump, but they may be his friends, and I think that's who he's trying to protect.
COLLINS: So, you think he's just trying to cover up for other people?
MASSIE: For other people, and also probably for our own intelligence agencies.
COLLINS: But when you read that email, from the 2011 email, that Jeffrey Epstein wrote to Ghislaine Maxwell, who is obviously serving her sentence right now, and he says that, Trump is the dog that has embarked. I wonder what you read into that.
KHANNA: I think he's probably saying that, Why haven't they asked Trump anything? Why hasn't Trump spoken?
But the reason this cuts right at Trump's message is people knew he wasn't perfect, when they elected him. People knew he had a lot of things in his past.
But he promised. He said, Look, I may not be perfect, but I'm going to take on the corrupt elite. I'm going to take on these people who just pay off politicians and have impunity and are shafting you.
And now he's become part of Washington, and people are like, What happened to him? Why has he become part of the swamp that he said he would drain?
And so, in my view, what would redeem him, after months of dragging this out, is to release the files. For the life of me, I don't understand why he just doesn't release the files. And let's have the left and the right come together to say, Enough with the Epstein class. They need to go.
COLLINS: Yes, and I just -- I want to clear-- MASSIE: Well, I could be wrong. But I look at that email about dogs barking. It's cryptic. Maybe they suspected he was going to inform on them. I don't know.
COLLINS: OK. So you're saying there could be other interpretations.
MASSIE: Yes.
COLLINS: I do want to clarify something which I'm not sure is clarified before. But Stormy Daniels isn't a prostitute. She's a porn star that the -- alleged to have slept with the President at the center of that agreement.
But on this front, when it comes--
MASSIE: By the way, I'd say both should be legal.
COLLINS: When it comes to -- that's a conversation for another time. But when it comes to the motivation here, and how MAGA voters feel about this. I mean, you speak to these people. You are someone who has been outspoken against the White House. But you don't generally disagree with some of the things that President Trump does or has run on policy-wise.
What do you -- how do you explain to voters why the President is fighting your discharge petition, or fighting the release of these documents from the Justice Department?
MASSIE: Well, you know, I vote with my party 91 percent of the time, and which means I agree with the -- have agreed with the President 91 percent of the time.
But they -- when they're protecting pedophiles, when they are blowing our budget, when they are starting wars overseas? I'm sorry, I can't go along with that.
[21:15:00]
And back home, people agree with me. They understand, even the most ardent Trump supporters understand, sometimes he gets bad advice. Sometimes he gives bad advice. And we wouldn't model our lives after him, his personal life. And they're OK with that.
I mean, they can still -- you can still like Donald Trump in Kentucky, and like what I'm doing, and what Ro Khanna is doing, which is trying to get transparency.
COLLINS: Well, and you were actually -- we were watching Adelita Grijalva be sworn in today. And as soon as she was sworn in, she walked over and signed this discharge petition, seconds later. You went up and shook her hand, as you noted, before any other Democrats had actually even ever gotten over to her side.
MASSIE: I also -- you couldn't hear what I said, but I apologized to her for what my own party did, which was to keep her from being sworn in, and depriving an entire congressional district of representation for 49, 50 days. Which, you know, I won a special election myself. I think I was sworn in within a week.
And there was no reason to delay this, other than the petty thing that now -- now the Speaker is accelerating. He tried to delay this vote. He deprived a congressional district of a congressperson. And now he says, Well, OK, I guess I lost. We'll have the vote, next week.
KHANNA: You know--
COLLINS: Do you think--
KHANNA: Go ahead.
COLLINS: Do you think the White House has made this, and Speaker Johnson, by delaying swearing her in, has given this more attention? I mean, you've said, according to your math, that 4 percent chance of this actually succeeding. Do you think they've actually done the opposite of what they intended to do here?
KHANNA: I do. I think they miscalculated. I think they thought they could bully people off the petition. Obviously, they tried. They invited members of Congress to the Situation Room, and I thought they -- I think they thought the media would forget about it.
But you know, Kaitlan, there are a lot of days you're in Congress, I've been in Congress nine years, where you start to wonder, Is it worth it? It's frustrating, you don't get anything done.
I've voted against President Trump, well, I mean, 98 percent of the time. And yet, Thomas Massie and I came together, and we actually achieved something that's going to get justice for victims. And Massie probably will never vote for me, and I don't -- I won't vote for him. But it shows that you can have functional politics that achieves things, when you build a broad coalition, and we need more of that, in Washington.
COLLINS: We're going to see President Trump, this hour, signing that bill to reopen the federal government.
What would you say to him when it comes to -- if you were advising him, which I know you're not. But if you were, on how to handle the Epstein situation, going forward?
MASSIE: I would say, there's still time to be a hero. He -- you know, Speaker Johnson has decided to pull the band aid off. Trump could one up him and say, Well, Johnson wants to have the vote, Wednesday. I want to release the Epstein files, Tuesday.
And he could literally be a hero, and he would bring back his base, which he's -- he's alienated a lot of his base with this -- with his statement that, You're no longer my supporter, and you never were, if this is what you're for.
But he could also bring over some Democrats and Independents. I know he doesn't have to run again for office. But we do, and our parties do. And I think it would behoove the Republican Party, frankly, if he would show leadership on this. COLLINS: You're saying it could hurt Republicans in the future, if they vote against this, when Trump is no longer in office?
MASSIE: Yes, the promise now to my colleagues, my Republican colleagues, they're handing out Trump endorsements like PEZ Candy, over here in the Capitol, and saying, Take one of these and it will protect you from the Epstein vote.
The problem is, this Epstein vote, the record is going to last longer than Trump's presidency. And so, what are you going to do, in 2028 or 2030, when he's no longer president, and you sit in a debate, either with a Democrat or another Republican, and they say, Why should we trust you? You voted to protect pedophiles.
That will be a mark on your record forever, if you vote against our resolution, when we force this vote.
COLLINS: The last time I had y'all on, you both predicted you'd get to 218, when some people were doubting that you actually would.
Do you predict tonight that these files will ultimately be released by the Justice Department?
KHANNA: I do. How much? I don't know. But I do. Because the American people are not letting this go. They are dialed in.
And Epstein has become something even broader than justice for survivors. It's become a symbol for everything that's wrong in Washington, that if you have extreme wealth, and you buy up a couple of politicians, then you can have bankers who help you, then you can get deals that help you, and the rules don't apply to you, even if you're raping underage girls. And that's unacceptable. That's the line Americans draw. Like, you can do a lot of bad things. You can't rape and abuse underage girls.
COLLINS: Congressman Ro Khanna and Thomas Massie, thank you both for being here, again tonight, on such a big day for this.
MASSIE: Thanks, Kaitlan.
KHANNA: Thank you.
COLLINS: Great to have you both.
And up next. What we noticed about what Ghislaine Maxwell said in an email to Jeffrey Epstein. And also, compare that to what she actually told the Deputy Attorney General, during that unusual interview.
And also what you might have seen but not heard during that tense swearing-in with the House Speaker, and the new Congresswoman that he had refused to seat for 50 days.
As tonight, we are waiting to see President Trump in front of the cameras for the first time, as he signs the bill to reopen the government. That is set to happen this hour. We'll bring it to you here, live, on CNN. [21:20:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: We're back on Capitol Hill tonight, where we are standing by tonight, for President Trump to sign the bill to reopen the government, inside the Oval Office. He's expected to do that any moment now.
Meanwhile, here on the Hill, lawmakers, on the House Oversight Committee, released those Jeffrey Epstein emails today, including the several that name President Donald Trump over the last 15 years.
And these emails have renewed scrutiny over his accomplice and convicted sex offender of Jeffrey Epstein's, Ghislaine Maxwell.
[21:25:00]
Because look at this 2011 email, where Epstein had sent Maxwell about Trump. It came about three years after Epstein got that sweetheart deal. And he wrote that one of his victims had spent hours at -- one of the victims had spent hours at my house with him, in reference to Trump, saying that he had never once been mentioned.
Maxwell responded, and this is the key point here, she said, I have been thinking about that...
Now, Democrats redacted the name. But, as I told you, the Republicans on that committee revealed that it was Virginia Giuffre, who was one of the most prominent survivors of Jeffrey Epstein's, and who died by suicide earlier this year.
Now, Epstein says in that email, he claims, Trump spent hours with her at his house.
That is very different than what Ghislaine Maxwell told the Deputy Attorney General, Todd Blanche, when he interviewed her for two days, earlier this summer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GHISLAINE MAXWELL, BRITISH FORMER SOCIALITE AND CONVICTED CHILD SEX OFFENDER: I think they were friendly, like people are in social settings. I don't -- I don't think they were close friends, or I certainly never witnessed the President in any of -- I don't recall ever seeing him in his house, for instance. I actually never saw the President in any type of massage setting. I never witnessed the President in any inappropriate setting in any way. The President was never inappropriate with anybody. In the times that I was with him, he was a gentleman, in all respects.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My legal sources tonight are:
CNN Legal Analyst, Elliot Williams. And the former Deputy Assistant Attorney General, Tom Dupree.
And Tom, when you listen to Maxwell's testimony there, about what she saw and what she knew, do you believe it is contradicted by Jeffrey Epstein's emails that were released today?
TOM DUPREE, FORMER DEPUTY ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL: It's very difficult to reconcile what she told the Deputy Attorney General, with what we saw in those emails that came out today. And Kaitlan, prosecutors will like to tell you that witnesses lie, but documents do not lie.
And to me, this really exposed just kind of a fundamental mystery that swirls around the whole interview, by the Deputy Attorney General, which is, did he see these emails before he conducted this interview? Because if he did, it's inexplicable to me why he wouldn't have asked her about them, why he wouldn't have pressed her on the answers that she was giving him, when he knew the truth might be different based on those emails.
So although these emails certainly serve the cause of transparency, in some respects, they deepen the mystery.
COLLINS: Well, and Elliot on that front. I mean, do you see -- is there any way where the Deputy Attorney General would go into a meeting, with Ghislaine Maxwell, having maybe not read all 23,000 documents that were handed over by his estate to Congress, but to have at least some semblance of these emails. Would emails like this be in the possession of the Justice Department, do you think?
ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Well, I would hope so, and I would think so.
And quite frankly, no, he would not read all 23,000 emails. But I bet someone would have sat at a laptop, and hit Control F, and typed in the word, Trump, just to find out where the President was specifically mentioned. And if not just the President, other prominent individuals, Clinton or whatever else, just to see what they could ask her questions about.
The idea that there were emails, out there, specifically mentioning the current President of the United States, and these other individuals, and either the Deputy Attorney General know about them, or seem to not have asked about them, is malpractice, and it's just sort of odd.
So, so many things about this are odd, Kaitlan, and so many things about the interview are odd. But this is a bit of a head-scratcher.
COLLINS: Well, and when we had Todd Blanche on this show, after that interview happened, I asked him, Tom, if he found Ghislaine Maxwell to be credible, in those nine hours that he spoke with her. And this is what he said at the time.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: You sat face-to-face with Ghislaine Maxwell for nine hours. Do you believe her?
TODD BLANCHE, DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL: I mean, listen, I think that -- that people are going to do what they're going to do, and they're going to say what they're going to say.
COLLINS: But when you met with her, did you find her to be credible?
BLANCHE: It's an impossible question to answer. I met with her for two days. To determine whether a witness is credible takes weeks and weeks and weeks. I asked her questions that -- that I believe all of us wanted answered, and she answered them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I mean, she was moved, Tom, to a lighter-security prison, after that interview happened. Do you think they're looking at that differently, now reading what she said in emails to Jeffrey Epstein today?
DUPREE: Yes, you do tend to look at it in a different light.
And look, I guess I disagree here with the Deputy Attorney General. I mean, I personally don't think Ghislaine Maxwell began with a very high level of credibility. I think what little credibility she had was probably diminished, because of the circumstances of the interview, where it was basically an open secret that she at least was hoping or angling for either a pardon or a commutation of her sentence, from the President.
[21:30:00]
So, although obviously the Deputy Attorney General asked the questions, and he gets the answers he wanted, which are all, by the way, subject to purge -- or to prosecution for a false statement, if she actually lied to him. But I don't really think she came across as a very credible witness, either before this interview, during the interview, or after the interview.
COLLINS: Elliot, can we talk about the fact that this meeting today with Lauren Boebert happened, inside the Situation Room? Is that unusual?
And I mean, the White House framed it as transparency, that they're happy to talk to members of Congress.
I just think what's unusual is it was so much firepower in that room, the Attorney General, the FBI director. We think the Deputy Attorney General was expected to be in that meeting.
But is that unusual for them to take a single member of Congress and meet with them in the Situation Room?
WILLIAMS: It really is. And Kaitlan, I had to do a double take when I saw it. I thought it first said Roosevelt Room, which might make sense, one of the rooms on the main level of the White House. It's in the Situation Room. Now, my guess is that they probably did it because of how secure the Situation Room is, and everybody would be required to put their cell phones away, and there couldn't be recordings of it.
But bringing in someone from the outside, for this purpose. You're not talking about a national security or a terrorism event. And that's not the sole purpose that the Situation Room exists. But that's what they used the room for.
So this is -- it's very hard -- I mean, like I said before, so much about this is bizarre and outside the norm of how law enforcement would be conducted. This is, just yet, the latest example of that.
COLLINS: Elliot Williams. And Tom Dupree. It's great to have your legal view of everything that's happened today. Thank you both for being here.
And up next. I want to talk about why the White House is fighting so hard to keep the Epstein files from being released in full. We have two of our best political sources here for their thoughts on everything that has gone down, just in the last 12 hours.
As we're also keeping a close eye on the White House, because President Trump is going to be in front of cameras, this hour, as he's going to sign that bill to officially reopen the government. We'll have it for you, live.
[21:35:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RACHEL CAMPOS-DUFFY, FOX NEWS HOST: If you were president, would you declassify -- you can answer yes or no to this.
TRUMP: Yes.
CAMPOS-DUFFY: Would you declassify the 9/11 files?
TRUMP: Yes.
CAMPOS-DUFFY: Would you declassify JFK files?
TRUMP: Yes.
CAMPOS-DUFFY: Would you--
TRUMP: I did -- I did a lot of it.
CAMPOS-DUFFY: Would you declassify the Epstein files?
TRUMP: Yes. Yes. I would.
CAMPOS-DUFFY: All right. TRUMP: I guess I would. I think that, less so, because, you know, you don't know -- you don't want to affect people's lives if it's phony stuff in there, because it's a lot of phony stuff with that whole world.
CAMPOS-DUFFY: Yes.
TRUMP: But I think I would, or at least--
CAMPOS-DUFFY: And do you think that would restore trust? Help restore trust?
TRUMP: Yes, I don't know about Epstein, so much as I do the others. Certainly, about the way he died, it'd be interesting to find out what happened there.
CAMPOS-DUFFY: Sure.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: That was President Trump previously saying that he would be open to declassifying the Epstein files, even as he expressed some reluctancy in doing so.
But compare it to the full-court press that we saw out of the White House, not just tonight, but over the last few weeks, to stop a vote from happening, here on Capitol Hill, at least in the House, to release the files and call for it.
My political sources are joining me tonight, including:
Bakari Sellers, who was a Democratic state lawmaker in South Carolina.
And Scott Jennings, a senior adviser to Mitch McConnell.
And Scott, I think a question is, if that is how Trump felt, in October 2024. How do you explain what happened in November 2025, today.
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER TO MITCH MCCONNELL, HOST, "THE SCOTT JENNINGS RADIO SHOW" ON SRN: Well, look, he said back then, If there's people in here that are -- have names and documents, but they didn't do anything wrong, if they're phony? That was the word he used. I think he has some reticence about potentially publicly implicating people in something that they had nothing to do with, or they broke no laws, or what have you.
So, look, ultimately, they're going to have to use their judgment on whether they want to release documents that have people's names on it, that may have done nothing wrong, but then would be smeared by the release of this. I mean, ultimately, it sounds like some things are going to come out.
I find it curious, frankly, that the House Democrats today released these emails, on the very day that we were supposed to be talking about the government reopening, because the Democrats caved. Magically, these emails appear. But you can -- you can draw your own conclusions from that.
COLLINS: Bakari, what do you make of that timing?
BAKARI SELLERS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, (D) FORMER SOUTH CAROLINA STATE REPRESENTATIVE: Oh, the timing is because of the simple fact that we had enough people to sign on to a discharge petition, because government is now open, and Mike Johnson actually did his job and seat every elected member of the House Democratic Caucus. And so, when you have 218 members who can sign that discharge petition, it was timely.
I appreciate Scott attempting to defend President Trump on this. But let's recall that Donald Trump is the first person who asked for the release of the Epstein files, dating back to 2015, when he first started running for President of the United States. And now, because his name is fluttered throughout the Epstein files, he doesn't want to release it.
They even made a mockery of their own supporters, influencers who came out, holding up -- holding up little Trapper Keepers filled with what they called to be Epstein Files Part 1. And so, I just find this very hard to believe. He's made a fool of the Attorney General. He's made a fool of conservative influencers. Now he just thinks he can make a fool of the American people.
Just release the files and move on, if you have nothing to hide.
COLLINS: Well, there was a moment today, speaking of seating Adelita Grijalva, where she was being sworn in by the House Speaker, Mike Johnson.
I think it's worth everyone seeing how that played out today. I just want everyone to watch that moment that happened here, a couple of hours ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHNSON: OK?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Handshake.
JOHNSON: Handshake.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you.
JOHNSON: We'll look at the cameras a bit.
REPORTER: Why did it take so long to get sworn in?
REP. ADELITA GRIJALVA (D-AZ): That would be another -- that would not be my question.
JOHNSON: This is that -- look, I really like this lady. She's going to be an excellent member of Congress.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:40:00]
COLLINS: Scott, what do you make of that moment?
JENNINGS: I agree with Speaker Johnson. She seems like a lovely person. I think she's going to be a great member. And I'm glad she finally got sworn in, and now that district has representation, and she's here to act on the will of her district. So, I think -- I think, like the Speaker, I wish her all the best.
COLLINS: Bakari?
SELLERS: Gamesmanship. Mike Johnson has advocated as due to -- the past couple of weeks, when we're talking about the shutdown, one of the things he could have done was actually seat a duly sworn-in member of -- or duly-elected member of Congress, which he did not.
I mean, you think about this. For the past month, that district in Arizona had no representation, and she had already won her race. I just think -- I think it's a travesty, and I think that it sow a lot of distrust in the American public.
COLLINS: Well and, obviously, Mike Johnson said, when the government reopened, that he would swear her in. That's what we saw tonight.
But can we talk about, Scott, in these emails, it wasn't just the ones that mentioned Trump that were released. There were a ton of them that were released, corresponding to the people between Jeffrey Epstein, including one from June 2019, which that date is obviously notable. And it was when Trump was making his state visit to the United Kingdom. He was welcomed by the former Prince Andrew, who is now just Andrew.
And Jeffrey Epstein wrote to Steve Bannon at the time and said, Prince Andrew and Trump today, too funny. And then he added, Recall Prince Andrew's accuser came out of Mar-a-Lago. Obviously, that's a reference to Virginia Giuffre.
And Bannon replied, I can't believe nobody is making you the connective tissue.
I mean, Scott, when you read that and see, Trump in 2019 saying he didn't know Prince Andrew. Obviously, they had been photographed together. I wonder what you make of what else we learned, in terms of the powerful people, around Jeffrey Epstein, at this time, and what's coming out in these emails?
JENNINGS: Yes, look, I don't dispute, there were powerful people around him. Most of them were leftists and globalists. And Donald Trump, I don't think really had anything to do with it.
The lady that you mentioned, Virginia, had said before that she'd only, I think, met Donald Trump once, and he was a perfect gentleman, and didn't do anything untoward at all. And so, again, I think these things are being thrown out to try to smear Donald Trump, obviously, to try to change the subject away from the Democratic failures for having shut down the government for 43 days, and inflicted pain on the American people.
But nothing that I have seen in any of these documents prove anything, tell me anything.
COLLINS: Yes.
JENNINGS: No one's ever disputed that Donald Trump knew Jeffrey Epstein. Of course, we've known that for years and years and years. We knew that yesterday. We know it today. And I just don't think, frankly, Kaitlan, the American people, when they're looking at the pantheon of issues they've got going on right now, I just don't think this one ranks in, that high for them.
COLLINS: Scott Jennings. Bakari Sellers. I want you guys to stick around.
We are expecting to see President Trump any moment now. He's going to be signing that bill to end the government shutdown, here on Capitol Hill, and formally reopen the government.
Bakari and Scott will be right back with us, as we are going to go live to the White House.
[21:45:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Any moment now, we are going to see President Trump inside the Oval Office. Not often to see him, of course, in the 9 o'clock hour in the Oval. But he's expected to sign a bill to end the historic shutdown, here on Capitol Hill, and reopen the federal government, something the White House touted today.
This will mark the first time, though, that we see the President in front of the cameras and reporters, since these new Jeffrey Epstein emails were released by Congress, earlier today.
Jeff Zeleny is standing by for us at the White House.
And obviously, Jeff Zeleny, we're watching closely to see. Obviously, the White House was focused on ending the government shutdown. But it is very well likely that the President is going to face questions on these new emails, by the reporters who were inside the Oval Office with him, and how he handles that is something we're going to be watching.
JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: There's no doubt, Kaitlan. I mean, this is something that's consumed the White House all day long, as you well know, from the White House briefing, really, on throughout the day.
But President Trump, as he signs that bill, is hoping to use this evening event tonight, in the Oval Office, which is quite rare and unusual, to frame the stakes of the shutdown. I'm told that President Trump will blame Democrats for this, not surprisingly, but also will try and start reframing the conversation.
But that is going to be something that's not going to be solved tonight. This is going to be something that's going to play out for the months and perhaps the next year to come, all over health care. That's what this shutdown, of course, was about.
And Republicans now, of course, own the idea that the health care prices are going to go up. And of course, Democrats have a lot of infighting in their party. But Republicans have a lot of concern in their party about affordability.
So what happens tonight when the President signs the bill and formally reopens the government? It is going to be a marker, there's no doubt about it.
But to the point of the Epstein files. The White House is focused intently on the next week. And this pressure campaign we saw here today, at the White House, that you first reported on, with Lauren Boebert, of course, the member of Congress from Colorado, being called for a meeting in the Situation Room. Highly extraordinary and unusual.
For the next week, the White House is focused, I'm told, on trying to minimize House Republicans who might fight -- support the release of the documents. So, that is going to continue to sort of scramble this White House and their plans to move beyond all of this.
So, the President blamed Democrats for releasing the Epstein emails. He said they're trying to sort of mask the shutdown. But the President is also eager to move beyond the shutdown, but also move beyond Jeffrey Epstein. But at least for tonight, those two challenges are sort of interlinked in an unusual way.
[21:50:00]
COLLINS: Yes, and Jeff, I don't know if you heard. Thomas Massie, said that he heard from one of the Republicans that's voting for it, so it had to be Marjorie Taylor Greene, Nancy Mace, or Lauren Boebert, that the White House told them they could not give Massie a win, that that was part of the motivating factor here. We'll see if that gets mentioned, by President Trump, here in a few moments.
Jeff Zeleny, we'll check back in with you, as the reporters go inside the Oval Office.
And my political panel is also back here with me.
And Scott, when Thomas Massie says he thinks that there is going to be a deluge of Republicans now voting for this. I mean, do you think that was how the White House expected this would -- this effort would turn out?
JENNINGS: Look, I think they probably figured there's going to be a few that vote for it. I don't know how many. But some of them have made a big deal of it, in their own campaigns. And I don't know how much their constituents actually care about it, but they do for some reason. So yes, I don't think it's going to be a huge shock if some Republicans vote for this.
Of course, it still got to pass the Senate. Unlikely. And then it would have to be signed by the President. Highly unlikely. So, I mean, this is kind of a futile exercise, I guess. I mean, ultimately, whatever documents come out--
COLLINS: But then why is the White House fighting it so much? That's my question here. Because I do agree with you, it might die in the Senate. So then, why is the White House fighting it like they are?
JENNINGS: Because I think they believe that the time spent on this, and that the Republicans who bought into the Democratic tactics on this, are ultimately hurting the President's agenda, and hurting the overall Republican effort to change this country for the better.
The President firmly believes this is nothing but a distraction tactic, ginned up by Democrats who didn't care about this, one bit, until a couple of months ago. They didn't care about it when Joe Biden was the president. Now they care about it to try to tie up this presidency.
He's lived through these things before. He's lived through these kinds of wild goose chases before. It's all designed to tie him up. He recognizes it. He doesn't want his own party members to fall for it. But I think a few probably will.
COLLINS: I think some people might dispute the wild goose chase part, just given the -- obviously, the victims that are at the heart of this, and the survivors.
JENNINGS: No, regarding him.
The Democratic allegation, it's thinly-veiled, but the Democratic allegation is that Donald Trump did something untoward, unethical or worse. You hear people say it on television, day in and day out. They have not tried to hide the misleading of the American people. And there's not a shred of evidence that Donald Trump has done anything wrong. But that's what they want you to believe.
And so, if Republicans aid and abet the Democrats in this, you can see why Donald Trump would be mad about it.
COLLINS: Bakari, I wonder how you see that in terms of the -- you know, we talked about this complaint from the White House. They're saying, Democrats didn't bring this up, when Joe Biden was in office. They weren't as fervent on this, as they have been in the last few months. What's your response to that?
SELLERS: I mean, first, I mean, it's a really, really rough week for Republicans and Donald Trump.
Affordability is an issue that Republicans don't want to deal with. They're putting their head in the sand. Prices are rising. People are going to have to pay higher costs for Thanksgiving meals coming up.
We're seeing this. We're seeing health care premiums about to spike. Republicans don't know what to do with our health care conundrum we have in this country. They failed the American public year after year after year.
And then, per Scott Jennings, I mean, he just said it in the last block. I mean, everybody knows that Donald Trump was friends with Jeffrey Epstein. Nobody tried to hide that.
And so, yes, you have to wear around your neck that you were friends with one of the most notorious pedophiles in the history of the country.
And there is a trove of evidence that deals with his actions or inactions. And you said you were going to release them. And so now, dealing with the political issues, dealing with the sensationalized issues, he is -- he finds himself in a box.
COLLINS: Yes.
Scott, can I ask you? Because you're criticizing Democrats who weren't talking about this, when Joe Biden was in office, but are talking about it now, right?
JENNINGS: Yes.
COLLINS: OK, but what about--
JENNINGS: I mean, it's absolutely true.
COLLINS: But what about the Trump officials who spent years talking about it, but now that they're in power, don't want to talk about it?
JENNINGS: Look, I don't know what the internal conversations are at the Justice Department, or at the White House, about the propriety of releasing these documents.
All I know is that the President has previously expressed some discomfort, about the idea of releasing a bunch of files, from an investigation that is closed, that may contain names of people who did nothing wrong, but would be smeared if the files were to become public.
I mean, obviously, there were powerful people involved. I don't think anybody disputes that. And I have said, repeatedly, and Bakari and I agree on this, if powerful people got away with things, we need to know that, and they do need to be brought to justice.
But it is highly likely that there will be names in these documents, of people who literally did nothing wrong, yet would be smeared by just having their name, in a file, sitting on somebody's desk at the Justice Department. That is a -- that is something that has to do with governing responsibility. Sometimes, governing responsibility means making some of your supporters mad.
Regarding affordability, Bakari, I would only ask you this.
SELLERS: But--
JENNINGS: Why is the party of affordability, today, spending their entire day talking about Jeffrey Epstein? They got no message on affordability. They're the ones who put us in this crisis in the first place.
SELLERS: Oh--
JENNINGS: And they know it.
SELLERS: Respectfully, Scott, I mean, we just spent the last 45 days, talking about the affordability of health care. I mean, that was what this shutdown was about.
JENNINGS: Obamacare. Yes, we spent -- we spent the 45 days, talking about Obamacare. Correct.
SELLERS: And so -- and so -- and so we're having--
JENNINGS: Obamacare.
[21:55:00]
SELLERS: And so we're having -- we call it Obamacare. We love the name. We champion Obamacare.
JENNINGS: Yes.
SELLERS: You can call it what you want.
JENNINGS: Yes, I call it a failure.
SELLERS: But I will wear the Obamacare mantra.
JENNINGS: I call it a failure.
SELLERS: And I will also tell you--
JENNINGS: That's what I'd call it.
SELLERS: And I will also tell you, the reason that you're having those troubles is because of the simple fact that Republicans are not with the one beautiful bill, the one big beautiful bill, or whatever you all have to cast -- call it now, are now struggling because those prices, because of that piece of legislation, is going to go up.
COLLINS: Yes.
SELLERS: And so, yes, I just think that -- I think that, right now, Republicans are struggling to find their footing, and they have a president who palled around with someone, who is now at the epicenter, again, of just disdain.
I mean, nobody wants to talk about Jeffrey Epstein, right now, who was friends with him, who aided and abetted him. Release the truth.
COLLINS: Yes.
SELLERS: And I didn't hear Scott -- but my last point, Kaitlan. I didn't hear Scott or anybody else when they released sensationalized downright despicable things, from the FBI, about Martin Luther King Jr., right? When they released those files, they just said, Release them all. Who cares?
COLLINS: OK.
SELLERS: But now it's a problem, because it's Trump and Epstein.
COLLINS: Yes.
Bakari Sellers. Scott Jennings. You got to stand by. We are waiting for a live moment from the Oval Office. We'll be back, right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:00:00]
COLLINS: And thanks so much for joining us live, on Capitol Hill. As we wait for President Trump to sign the bill, to reopen the federal government. We'll have that moment for you, live here, on CNN.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts now.
