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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
House GOP Bracing For Mass Defections On Epstein Vote; Trump Loyalist Refers Swalwell To DOJ Over Fraud Claims; Vance Claims Immigrants Are Driving Up Home Prices. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired November 13, 2025 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: --join me in 15 minutes, at CNN.com/AllThereIs for the latest episode of "All There Is Live."
We have two guests, actually, on tonight's program. Both have spent their lives, decades, caring for their kids who have special needs. And both of their kids have died, and now they have to figure out life without that daily presence of the children that they loved so much. That's in 15 minutes.
The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Tonight. Despite the best efforts by the White House, President Trump might be on the verge of facing mass defections from his own party, when it comes to the vote on the Epstein files, on Capitol Hill.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
Tonight, President Trump is staring down a potential wave of Republican defections, over the Jeffrey Epstein scandal. Words being used to describe what might be coming on Capitol Hill tonight, include deluge, parade, and snowball, with more and more Republicans sounding like this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. DON BACON (R-NE): If this comes on the floor, I will vote for it. I want transparency.
MANU RAJU, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: This is Epstein votes coming to the floor. Are you going to vote for it, this bill?
REP. ELI CRANE (R-AZ): Yes. Told you I would.
RAJU: You are?
CRANE: Yes.
RAJU: Yes. OK. REP. WARREN DAVIDSON (R-OH): I'm going to vote for it if it comes up, because if--
RAJU: You'd vote for the bill?
DAVIDSON: Yes.
REP. MARIA ELVIRA SALAZAR (R-FL): We do need to know -- we do need to know everything about Epstein.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now you hear that, and the House Speaker, Mike Johnson, wants to get this vote over with, to release the Epstein files. He's actually expected to put it on the floor in the coming days, which is sooner than technically he has to, after that 218th signature came through, last night, with Adelita Grijalva's swearing-in.
But this is also coming as a bunch of polls show that the majority of Republicans actually do not approve of how the President has been handling the whole Epstein saga.
The House Oversight Committee's release of some 20,000 pages of emails, yesterday, where, as we reported, the President's name appeared several times, has also renewed scrutiny on why the White House is fighting the release of the Epstein files so hard.
The President has never been charged or accused of a crime. He has repeatedly denied any wrongdoing here. He has actually not even been accused of wrongdoing here.
But in Jeffrey Epstein's own words, as we read in these emails, he said of Trump, Of course he knew about the girls as he asked Ghislaine to stop.
It seemed to be a reference to what we heard from the President himself, this summer, that he had kicked Jeffrey Epstein out of his Mar-a-Lago Club in South Florida for poaching the young women who worked there.
Now, Speaker Mike Johnson is about to bring this vote to the House floor earlier than he has to, because he wants to move on from all of this. It appears that the White House certainly does as well.
The President has been in front of the cameras twice, since we broke this story, yesterday morning. But both times, he did not take questions from reporters, including ones about the new Epstein emails.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(APPLAUSE)
REPORTER: Sir, any response to the Epstein emails that mention your name?
(END VIDEO CLIP) COLLINS: Now, whether or not this story stops next week, after the House votes on this, as it is expected to pass, it remains to be seen if that's the end of this.
I'm told, the White House is very skeptical that this is going to go from the House to the Senate, even for a vote. They don't expect the Majority Leader there, John Thune, to actually even bring it to the floor for a vote.
But whether or not that changes remains to be seen, because listen to what Republican senator, John Kennedy, had to say about whether he not -- whether or not he thinks his body, the Senate, should take it up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN KENNEDY (R-LA): I just don't think this issue is going to go away until that issue is addressed and answered to the American people's satisfaction. And I may end up with a sombrero on my head for saying that. But that's the way I see it.
I think he'll put it on the floor. I think this is -- this issue has got to be resolved, one way or the other.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Joining me tonight is very deeply-sourced Chief Washington Correspondent for ABC News, Jonathan Karl, whose new book, "Retribution: Donald Trump and the Campaign That Changed America" is in stores now.
And pretty timely, because I think that is a question of whether or not some Republicans who are not doing what the House -- what the White House wants them to do, are going to face some retribution of their own over this.
JONATHAN KARL, CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT, ABC NEWS, AUTHOR, "RETRIBUTION": I mean, this is extraordinary. The White House has gone to such lengths, to prevent this vote from happening.
I mean, as you've reported, the meeting in the Situation Room of the White House, with the FBI director and the Attorney General, all focused on a single Republican member of Congress, Boebert -- Lauren -- who has been a Trump loyalist. And she wouldn't even do what they wanted. The phone calls, he's -- the President himself has called Boebert, attempted to get ahold of Nancy Mace. Both of them defied him.
I think that this could be a very big vote, as you said, all those adjectives, the snowballing, the avalanche, this could be a very big vote, in defiance of Trump.
[21:05:00]
COLLINS: I mean, the question is, why is the White House fighting this so hard? Because, I mean, they've said the President hasn't done anything wrong. He hasn't been accused of anything -- any wrongdoing. And so, that has been kind of a big question here is, why they're going as far as to bring Lauren Boebert into the Situation Room? I mean, that's where they monitored the bin Laden raid, and it's now where they're trying to convince a House Republican not to vote to release the Epstein files.
KARL: It's mystifying. It's utterly mystifying. Because also, even if this passes, which it now seems clear it is going to pass and pass big? You reported, in the Senate.
Look, my conversations today with Senate leadership, despite what you heard from Senator Kennedy there, is there is absolutely no intention whatsoever to ever allow this to come up for a vote in the Senate.
COLLINS: Oh, wow.
KARL: But even if it did, and maybe if this passes in the Senate -- in the House, with 350 or 400 votes, there will be more pressure for it to bring them up -- bring it up in the Senate. But even if it's brought up in the Senate, even if it passes that 60-vote threshold, and it passes? It doesn't become law unless Trump signs it. So, it's--
COLLINS: Which would never happen.
KARL: So, it would never happen. So, it doesn't make any sense. And as you have pointed out. Look, there have not been any credible allegations of criminal conduct by the -- conduct by the President involved -- involved in this, or misconduct. But he is acting like somebody who has something to hide.
COLLINS: So that's really the question here, that all the pressure has been on Speaker Mike Johnson, these last few weeks, when the House has been gone, without swearing in that 218th vote. That could turn to Majority Leader Thune soon.
KARL: Right.
COLLINS: If there are Republicans who say, Well, we should bring it up for a vote. The question is whether or not, he buys into that, or if he's easily pressured into doing so. It doesn't seem like that.
KARL: I mean, look, one person close to Thune today told me, Look, the Senate doesn't really care what the House does.
Because I was like, Come on. Are you really telling me that if the majority of Republicans join all of the Democrats, in passing this thing, that the Senate could just sit on and say, We don't care what the House does?
But we'll see. I thought those comments from John Kennedy are very interesting.
COLLINS: Yes, and when he was talking about the Sombrero, he's saying the White House, making fun of him, as they've done to Democrats.
KARL: Yes. COLLINS: We both covered the White House, covered Trump. Been in those moments in the Oval Office--
KARL: Yes.
COLLINS: --where he just seems like he can't even resist taking questions. It is something the White House touts as his commitment to transparency.
I wonder what you think it says, that he didn't take questions, last night, and he also didn't take questions today as he was walking out of the East Room.
KARL: I mean, that was a very revealing piece of tape. I mean, when he's right there, the reporter is right there, the camera is there, and it's something that's in the news. Trump usually talks. So, I don't know.
And look, this has been a long process. I mean, I think you were there with me when, in his -- in the first term, when Trump just randomly said that he wished Ghislaine Maxwell well.
COLLINS: Yes.
KARL: I mean, he's had very -- a very strange approach to all this.
And let's think. It's also the House not being in session for all the -- all that time. It's Todd Blanche going down to Florida to meet with Maxwell.
COLLINS: Yes.
KARL: It's transferring Maxwell to this lower-security prison.
COLLINS: Can we -- but your book--
KARL: Yes.
COLLINS: --gets into so much of the campaign, what that looked like. Also the transition, though.
KARL: Yes.
COLLINS: It has some really fascinating details on what that weird two-month period looked like in Mar-a-Lago, where they were trying to lock in on what do we want this second term to be. We've got this first year to really get--
KARL: Yes.
COLLINS: --a lot of what we want to be our legacy done.
I mean, when you're reporting this, and you're talking to all these people about that time period, did they ever think Jeffrey Epstein would dominate so much of, of the second term?
KARL: I mean, I never heard his name come up at all. No, not at all.
COLLINS: Doesn't that say so much?
KARL: I mean, look, and that transition was fascinating. I spent a great deal of time, reporting on what was going on.
In some ways, they had been preparing for this transition for years. I mean, Stephen Miller started America First Legal. These -- the flurry of executive orders that we've seen were in preparation for a long time. There were lists of potential Cabinet appointments. There was vetting that was happening without the FBI, but vetting that was happening.
But so much of what happened in the transition was Trump making a decision at the last minute, often going in an entirely different direction of where his team had been preparing.
COLLINS: Yes. It's fascinating book, as all of yours are.
KARL: Thank you.
COLLINS: Jon Karl, great to have you.
KARL: Great to be with you.
COLLINS: So nice to have you on set. So, thanks for joining us.
The book is "Retribution: Donald Trump and the Campaign That Changed America." It is in stores now and a must-read.
And also, I should note, this comes tonight, as CNN is learning new details about the special treatment that Ghislaine Maxwell, speaking of, is getting ever since she was moved to that minimum-security prison camp in Texas, after she had that interview that Jon Karl just mentioned, with the Deputy Attorney General, Todd Blanche.
Our sources tell us that she is getting special perks, like being able to host private meetings in the prison's chapel. She's isolated from other inmates, and even had at least one cellmate move out.
She's also had an unlimited supply of items that are pretty hard to come by in prison, apparently. That includes toilet paper. Sources are telling CNN that Maxwell can ask for as much as she wants, while the other inmates that she is serving with get two rolls per week only, and have to pay for anything more than that.
[21:10:00]
Joining me now is Annie Farmer, who Maxwell groomed her when she was just 16-years-old, and who testified at her trial, in 2021, that both Maxwell and Epstein had abused her.
And thank you, Annie, for coming back. Because obviously, you've been here before to share your perspective and your experience and how you want that to shape what's happening here, in Washington.
When you hear that Ghislaine Maxwell is getting special treatment, I wonder what goes through your mind.
ANNIE FARMER, JEFFREY EPSTEIN ACCUSER, KEY WITNESS IN GHISLAINE MAXWELL'S TRIAL: Thank you, Kaitlan, for having me back.
Honestly, I'm disgusted, and I think that many Americans feel that way, when they hear about this special treatment. And the question that comes to mind is why. It's hard -- it's hard to know why this would happen, unless there's something -- you know, it's someone she knows, or something she knows, that would be enabling this special treatment.
And I think it's particularly upsetting, I saw earlier, that there were other women, at this facility, non-violent offenders, who had actually been transferred to a more secure facility, just for speaking out, about her being there and how uncomfortable it made them. And so, the whole thing is really troubling.
COLLINS: And obviously, as we've been learning about that, seeing how her words are contradicted by things she's said before to what she said this summer.
This bill in the House, it would -- it would force the Justice Department, if it made its way to the President's desk and he actually signed it? Which, as Jon Karl noted, seems unlikely. But on its face, it would force the Justice Department to release the Epstein files that they have.
It is going to be up for a vote, next week. And I wonder, if any Republican is considering voting no, on it, what you would say to them tonight?
FARMER: I would say, Read Virginia Giuffre's memoir. I think, we -- the American people want transparency here. Survivors are very clear about needing and wanting transparency.
This is not just about a compelling story or intrigue, right? This is actually about survivors getting puzzle pieces to understand the question of, Why was this person, why were these people, allowed to harm so many children and young women, for so long, and change the trajectories of so many people's lives.
And so, I'd encourage them to learn about people, like my sister, Maria Farmer, who first reported Epstein in 1996, and paid a high price for speaking out about him and Ghislaine Maxwell, losing her career in the art world, because she was willing to say, This is not right, what they are doing.
And so, I think, courage is contagious, and I would encourage -- you know, there were Republicans in the House that were willing to stand up with us, because they believed what was happening was wrong. And we need answers, as American people, to have trust in this government.
And I would hope that senators would do some research, talk to their constituents. They are with us, and people want transparency.
COLLINS: Well, and the last time that you were here with us, you told me that you had actually reached out to the Justice Department, to the Deputy Attorney General, Todd Blanche, with your concerns about their treatment of Maxwell, and her being moved to a lighter-security prison.
Did you ever hear back from the Deputy Attorney General?
FARMER: No, and I think that's very telling. There's been no communication at all.
COLLINS: So you've heard nothing from the administration--
FARMER: No.
COLLINS: --as this has been playing out?
FARMER: No, I have heard nothing.
And, I guess, just one -- one further point I wanted to make, just because it's kind of in my mind now, what your last guest was saying, that it's unlikely that this would, you know, that this would continue on, or move forward, in terms of the legislation.
And it's just, I feel like it's important to note that so many things that are unlikely have happened, when it comes to this case.
It was very unlikely that we -- that we would get the signatures we needed for this discharge petition. And here we are. We have them, right?
It was very unlikely that Andrew would no longer be a prince. And that's happened.
And I think, for years, people said it was unlikely that anyone would care or know about the crimes of Epstein and his co-conspirators. And people clearly do.
So, I just -- I really believe that we -- that there -- that people are going to demand that this move forward, and I think it's very likely it will happen.
COLLINS: Annie Farmer, I think that's actually a really excellent point, and I'm glad you made it. And thank you for joining me tonight.
FARMER: Thank you so much.
COLLINS: And speaking of the Deputy Attorney General in that interview, that very unusual one with Ghislaine Maxwell, and how her answers to him, over the summer, seem contradicted by what she said in these newly-released emails with Jeffrey Epstein.
Blanche responded today and said this, in response to someone who had criticized that interview. He said, When I interviewed Maxwell, law enforcement didn't have the materials Epstein's estate hid for years and only just provided to Congress. The person who's responding to is my next source tonight. The attorney, and Contributor for "The Atlantic," George Conway, who, as I like to remind everyone, almost worked in the first Trump Justice Department as the Solicitor General.
[21:15:00]
But you were -- you were criticizing Todd Blanche, and saying, You interviewed Ghislaine Maxwell. It didn't seem like you had any idea about these emails or what happened there.
What do you make of him acknowledging that the Justice Department did not have these emails in their possession?
GEORGE CONWAY, ATTORNEY, CONTRIBUTOR, THE ATLANTIC: Well, I mean, first of all, I kind of find that hard to believe. Maybe it's true.
But these documents were ready to be produced by that estate, and I think that -- I suppose, the reason why they were produced by the estate to Congress, in this batch, was that they were produced in civil litigations, and I assume that the same trove of documents was requested by grand juries in the past. Maybe. Maybe not.
But even setting that aside. The questioning of Ghislaine Maxwell. I mean, I was a partner at a major New York law firm for 30 years -- for 25 years. And if an associate came to me with that questioning of -- and any -- of any subject and -- of any -- and any deposition, where there were no follow-up questions asked, where you're just simply taking the words of someone who has something to hide, and saying, Oh, there was no inappropriate conduct.
Well, what do you mean inappropriate conduct? Did you see this? Did you see that?
And saying things like, Oh, I never saw him at the house.
And you would say, OK, well, you never saw him at the house. Did you ever hear that he was housed? Did anyone email you that was his house?
If I saw a deposition like that that was taken, where no follow-up questions were asked, even if he didn't have the documents? Even if he had an excuse not to have the documents. But normally, you would want to get the documents, and prepare yourself with some of the documents before you take the deposition, the same way you prepare for going on TV? I mean--
COLLINS: Which has much lower stakes than interviewing an accomplice.
CONWAY: Well, yes.
COLLINS: But on that front. When you read her answers, what she said then. I mean, she claimed, even in that interview, that Jeffrey Epstein hadn't really done anything wrong, and praised him basically, which obviously, we know it's not true.
I mean, when you read that, and you read these emails, where he's saying, Trump is the dog that hasn't barked in 2011. And she says, I've been thinking about that too. Do you think that she was just lying to the Deputy Attorney General?
CONWAY: I mean, I'd have to go through the transcript to say which statements were true and untrue. But a lot of the test -- lot of her testimony was kind of squishy in a way. And so, I don't remember this, I don't remember.
You have to ask the questions very crisply, and you have to ask them multiple ways. And they were in a position, Todd Blanche was in a position, both to -- I mean, first of all, Deputy Attorney General, why is -- why isn't it somebody like who -- somebody who did the investigation, asking the questions? You have to spend the time, to ask these questions carefully, if you are seeking the truth.
COLLINS: Well, you know what I was thinking about? This all was started, this term, by the DOJ and FBI coming out and saying, This is done. No further disclosures are warranted. We've done the investigation. Like, It's done, basically.
If the DOJ didn't have these emails, why would they not have subpoenaed Jeffrey Epstein's estate, like Congress did for these emails, if -- I mean, I just think this is something that MAGA would look at and say--
CONWAY: Yes.
COLLINS: --Well, that means it doesn't -- it wasn't a very thorough investigation, it seems.
CONWAY: Because it was for the same reason that the questioning was so terrible, and so lousy, and so haphazard. Because they didn't -- this wasn't a search for the truth. This was a search for sound bites, to make Donald -- to try to get Donald Trump off a political hook.
And it wasn't about truth, and it wasn't about justice, and it wasn't about the victims who he wouldn't even speak with, when instead he's talking -- he's tweeting at me on social media. I mean, this wasn't about justice, and this wasn't about a Deputy Attorney General doing his job.
COLLINS: To be fair. You're tweeting a lot too, as we know.
But can I ask you, because one thing that was brought up, last night, by Scott Jennings was, why did Democrats never talk about this when Biden was in office? Why is this only something that the party cares about now, in terms of getting justice for these women who were girls at the time? I think it's a fair question. We've asked it to Democrats.
But the Biden Justice Department oversaw Ghislaine Maxwell's trial.
CONWAY: Yes.
COLLINS: I mean, they could have subpoenaed the Jeffrey Epstein estate for these emails. CONWAY: Lot--
COLLINS: And they did not, it seems.
CONWAY: Because they didn't need to. The whole point -- Epstein was dead. And Ghislaine Maxwell, their object was to put her in jail. They did that. They only needed some--
COLLINS: But the emails could have revealed other people that could have been investigated as much.
CONWAY: I under -- well, yes, but the statute of limitations might have run against somebody like a Donald Trump, and the evidence from those documents might not have been sufficient to convict. I don't think these documents, however amazing they are, they're not enough to convict.
And the only person who was a witness, you know, the people who were witnesses, were these women who were abused, and you had to take their testimony, the ones who you could get, and the testimony they could get, to get the people who you -- who actually did the trafficking. And they did that, and they got Ghislaine Maxwell.
And it wasn't meant to be kind of a search for everyone who might have had anything to do with Ghislaine Maxwell, and--
[21:20:00]
COLLINS: But shouldn't it have been?
CONWAY: Well, I mean, that's not the--
COLLINS: They hear that and they say--
CONWAY: That's not the function of a--
COLLINS: --all these powerful people--
(CROSSTALK)
CONWAY: It's not the function of the criminal justice system. OK?
Now Donald Trump, I mean, I'm not saying he committed a crime, and that can be proven now in 2025.
The reason why this is of concern is he's the President of the United States. He's been found in another case, by a civil jury, to have been liable for sexually abusing a woman in a department store. He has been, you know, he's a convicted felon, and he's had dozens and dozens of women -- you know, dozens of women accuse him, older women, accuse him of sexual abuse. And we've never -- you know, they had all had -- now they're different people, at different times, and they all had no reason to lie. And this is of a piece. And sometimes, justice takes a while.
COLLINS: Yes, and of course, he's denied all that and is trying to overturn that conviction.
George Conway, thank you for joining us tonight.
CONWAY: Yes. Thanks for having me.
COLLINS: Up next here for us on THE SOURCE.
The Trump administration has just taken a step to target another high- profile Democrat, also for the same thing they say other high-profile Democrats did as well.
And there were gasps heard in court today, as a judge questioned and weighed whether or not Donald Trump's handpicked prosecutor in the James Comey and Letitia James case could even legally bring their cases.
And also tonight. There's a shocking new interview that CNN's Donie O'Sullivan just did with the father of Elon Musk, and why he says he believes the United States is, quote, Doomed.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: Right now is, America, in the next 20 years, will become, for the first time in its history, a minority white country.
ERROL MUSK, BUSINESSMAN AND FORMER MEMBER OF THE PRETORIA CITY COUNCIL: Well, that will be a very, very bad thing to happen. You want to see the U.S. go down? Why?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:25:00]
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COLLINS: Tonight, Democratic congressman, Eric Swalwell, a vocal critic who has frequently drawn the President's ire, has now been referred to the Justice Department over mortgage fraud allegations.
If that sounds familiar, it's because it's the same accusation that Bill Pulte, who runs the Federal Housing Finance Agency, it's the same thing he has said about the New York Attorney General, Letitia James, and the Democratic senator Adam Schiff, as well, and of course, Lisa Cook, who is on here as well.
The Justice Department has not said tonight whether or not it has actually received the formal referral for Eric Swalwell.
But listen to this. As we were reporting this out today, there was some internal confusion over whether this referral had even been made. I'm told that Bill Pulte, who was spotted by our CNN team, walking into the West Wing today, told Justice Department official, Ed Martin, in-person, that he was going to be referring Eric Swalwell for this. But the written copy, the actual formal referral of that was put in the mail, and hadn't actually made its way to the Justice Department yet.
Now, Swalwell is someone who once served as an impeachment manager, during President Trump's second impeachment proceedings. He has a lawsuit actually against the President, claiming that his speech at the White House Ellipse, just before January 6th, pushed his supporters toward violence.
In a statement tonight, the Congressman told us, As the most vocal critic of Donald Trump over the last decade and as the only person who still has a surviving lawsuit against him, the only thing I am surprised about is that it took him this long to come after me.
My source tonight is the former federal prosecutor, Gene Rossi.
And Gene, it's so great to have you back.
Because we don't really know what this referral looks like. We have to wait to see what it is, Pulte is arguing here, obviously. But obviously, there's a track record of mortgage fraud allegations against people who are critics or political opponents of President Trump's. And a former -- a referral doesn't actually mean he's going to get indicted.
I wonder what you're seeing in how this is playing out tonight, though.
GENE ROSSI, FORMER ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY, EASTERN DISTRICT OF VIRGINIA: Well, there's two motions that come to mind in a case like this, Kaitlan. And it's good to see you again. Vindictive and selective prosecution.
There are 535 members of Congress. And it seems like at the behest of President Trump, and carrying the ball, Pam Bondi, they're focusing on Democrats, of the 535. And they're using Mr. Pulte as the vehicle to find crimes for which he could be charged. Now, I don't want to get poetic here. But there's that famous character, Javert in "Les Miserables," who's going after people for small crimes. I put this in the same category.
Regarding Mr. Swalwell. If he is charged, if he is indicted, he would have a very strong case of vindictive and selective prosecution. But I do have to add this, Kaitlan. Those are difficult motions.
And what I've said before on this show and others is, even if they lose that motion, selective or vindictive, Kaitlan, a court may allow discovery, where we can get memos, and interview people about what was in the mind of officials when they brought the charges. That would be very embarrassing for the President and the Justice Department.
COLLINS: Yes, that's a good point, in terms of what we could just learn as this process is playing out.
Because right now, the other thing that happened in a courtroom today was we saw attorneys for Tish James in New York, and James Comey, the former FBI Director, battling the current Justice Department. They're arguing that Lindsey Halligan -- she is the one and only prosecutor who signed both those indictments. They're saying she's unlawfully serving as the top prosecutor in your former office, the Eastern District of Virginia.
ROSSI: Yes.
[21:30:00]
COLLINS: They're asking the judge, basically, We want you to toss out these cases, altogether.
And I wonder what you make of -- you made of what you saw play out today, whether or not they're making a strong case, or if Lindsey Halligan seems to be fine in her position.
ROSSI: Well, there's so many things to unwrap, regarding what happened today, at my old office, for almost 20 years.
The thing that struck me was the judge is focused like a laser beam, like a laser beam, on the issue of whether her appointment is allowed under the interim U.S. Attorney statute, which requires 120 days. Then, it goes to the judges.
And I've said on your show before that you don't get two or three or four bites at the interim U.S. Attorney apple, if you will. Erik Siebert was the first interim. He served 120 days. He got fired, basically. And now they put a second one. And I got to go back to Sam Alito, in the 1980s, wrote a memo, when he was with the Justice Department, that you can't do that.
But I want to add something that she brought up at the hearing. The judge. Judge Currie. She asked, I think, one of the defense attorneys, If they have access, the prosecution memos for any of those indictments, either James or Comey, that would scare the living heck out of me as a prosecutor, and that--
COLLINS: Why--
ROSSI: Because -- because those memos, Kaitlan, have the Good, the Bad and the Ugly. It has what you think is strong evidence, but it also has negative evidence. And you basically are playing a judge as a prosecutor, and at the end you have a punch line, What's your reasonable probability of conviction?
I know the people who wrote their old memos. I'll guarantee you, at the bottom of that memo they put, This case is terrible, we should kill it.
But what I want to stress is this, if the defense attorneys get those memos, if they're able to interview witnesses at a vindictive or selective prosecution hearing? Even if they lose that motion, they've won a war, and they've embarrassed the Justice Department and President Trump, even if those motions are denied.
COLLINS: Well, Gene Rossi. Now, I'm interested. Now, I can't wait to see if we get to see those. And it's always great to have you. Thank you for joining us tonight. ROSSI: Thank you.
COLLINS: And speaking of Eric Swalwell. The Congressman is going to be joining Laura Coates, tonight, at 11:00 p.m. Eastern. That is an interview you do not want to miss, coming up. You'll see that here on CNN in a little bit.
But up next for us here. The President has been pitching this 50-year home mortgage idea. We've now heard from the Vice President, JD Vance, his own explanation for sky-high home prices. I'll let you listen to it for yourself, right after this.
[21:35:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BROOKE ROLLINS, UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF AGRICULTURE: For the most part, most groceries actually have come down.
KELLY LOEFFLER, UNITED STATES ADMINISTRATOR OF THE SMALL BUSINESS ADMINISTRATION: Our inflation has continued to fall.
KEVIN HASSETT, DIRECTOR OF THE NATIONAL ECONOMIC COUNCIL OF THE UNITED STATES: We've stopped the runaway inflation. And the second thing we've done is we've pushed policies that have caused incomes to grow a lot. But we understand that people understand, as they look at their pocketbooks, to go to the grocery store, that there's still work to do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Those are just a few of the top Trump administration officials, as they've been hammering home their own message about the economy, the cost of goods, saying that it's moving in the right direction. Even as people who are going to the grocery store, see the prices of dozens of grocery items are actually rising.
The White House has been considering something else, a 50-year mortgage idea that the President has pushed, personally, to help lower housing costs for Americans.
As the Vice President, JD Vance, had this to say about why they believe it's so expensive to own a home now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JD VANCE (R), U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: A lot of young people are saying, housing is way too expensive. Why is that? Because we flooded the country with 30 million illegal immigrants, who were taking houses that ought, by right, go to American citizens, and at the same time, we weren't building enough new houses to begin with, even for the population that we had.
(END VIDEO CLIP) COLLINS: My political sources tonight are:
David Axelrod, who is a former senior adviser to President Obama.
And Jonah Goldberg, who is the Co-founder and Editor-in-Chief of "The Dispatch."
And when you hear how these officials have been talking about the economy. You hear JD Vance there, trying to explain away what's going on with housing. I wonder what you make of just the messaging overall that we're hearing.
JONAH GOLDBERG, EDITOR IN CHIEF, THE DISPATCH: Well, at least there's messaging now. Up until a few days ago, the messaging from Donald Trump was, Don't believe your lying eyes. The polls are all rigged. Best economy ever. And now, at least they're trying to reverse that? I just -- it takes a lot of work. Joe Biden tried to do that.
One of the problems with inflation is, imagine you're in a heat wave where every day it goes up another 10 degrees. And then you get a hold of the inflation, and it only goes up two degrees. It's still friggin' hot, right?
We have high prices. They were -- consistently high prices. Inflation just means the rate of increase. So, if the rate of increase gets lower, it doesn't mean people feel like they have a lot more money. They still have less money than they otherwise would. And telling people they're imagining it is really, really insulting.
COLLINS: Yes, telling you you're not hot, and that it's actually cooling off in here--
GOLDBERG: Right.
COLLINS: --and you're like, Mm, I'm not so sure about that.
GOLDBERG: I'm schvitzing here.
COLLINS: I mean, David Axelrod, you're someone who, you know -- you were critical of the Biden administration in its own right, when their messaging wasn't always in line with how voters were feeling.
[21:40:00]
The Vice President just a few minutes ago was talking about how Americans do feel about higher prices, and this is what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VANCE: I know that there are a lot of people out there, Sean, who are saying, things are expensive. And we have to remember, they're expensive because we inherited this terrible inflation crisis, from the Biden administration.
(END VIDEO CLIP) COLLINS: I wonder what you make of that answer, and if the voters who are still feeling the pain say, you know -- they're not blaming Biden anymore, now that it's almost 10 months into this administration.
DAVID AXELROD, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER TO PRESIDENT OBAMA: There's been plenty of polling recently that, that confirms that, Kaitlan. People believe, and rightly so, that this is the President's -- President Trump's economy now. He's perfectly willing to claim it when he thinks there are signs of progress. He claims the stock market, when the stock market is up.
Listen, this is a terrible strategy. And the thing that's so alarming about it, as Jonah said, is like, what were they doing all that time, when Biden was claiming that inflation was under control, and the economy was in great shape, while people out there were feeling punished by prices.
This is how Donald Trump got elected. I mean, they actually exploited that. And he very pointedly -- and you were there, many times -- said, I'm going to quickly bring prices down, and I'm going to fix this economy.
And now, a year later, they're saying, Well, it's Biden's fault. And they're trying to tell people that, as Jonah said, Don't believe you're lying eyes.
Cash registers don't lie. Your mortgage or rent check doesn't lie. Your electricity bill doesn't lie. And that's the problem here. And I think Donald Trump feels like he can sell anything to anybody, if he just repeats it enough. But that doesn't pay the bills.
And so, I think they've got a big problem, and I don't think they've gotten a handle on it. And frankly, blaming Biden and immigrants is not going to get them very far.
COLLINS: Yes, and Jonah, the one thing I've -- I've spoken to officials about this. And Kevin Hassett is one of them, and he said, Well, gas prices are down, egg prices are down. Those were two big things we were dealing with when they came in, in January.
Those are both true. But energy is up, utility bills are up, groceries and a bunch of other categories are up 1.3 percent, since Trump took office. And I think that has been the question of they won't even really acknowledge it. I mean, they're saying the opposite in these -- in these interviews.
GOLDBERG: Yes, I mean, so the one thing I'll grant, I think Donald Trump has a point. He said in an interview, Affordability is the new word they're using. And that's true, right? And I think you can--
COLLINS: And he called it a con job.
GOLDBERG: Well, yes, but -- that part I don't agree with. Like, you can focus too much on the word. It used to be, for years, people talk about economic security, right? It's general anxiety. What is AI doing to the economy? What are the tariffs doing to my business? Right? It is this feeling of uncertainty and insecurity that we're now calling the affordability issue.
And so, you can point to this thing being lower and that thing being lower. It doesn't put people at ease. If they feel like their financial situation is precarious? Pointing to one thing being cheaper doesn't mean anything to them. And that's the dilemma they've gotten themselves into. And it's the dilemma politicians get themselves into all the time. It's amazing how they always do this. They should say, We're working on it.
COLLINS: Yes.
AXELROD: And -- and Kaitlan--
COLLINS: Go ahead, David.
AXELROD: Kaitlan, first of all, let me -- let me say, first of all, we had this experience in the Obama administration, and we were working very hard. We came there at the outset of the great recession. We tried very hard, every day, to give people a sense of progress. And we very quickly realized, until they felt it in their own lives, that was not going to be well received. That was a lesson that we learned. I don't know why they haven't learned that lesson.
But I thought one of the most absurd spectacles was the President talking about Walmart's Thanksgiving package, and that it was 25 percent lower this year. And yes, it's 25 percent lower, because it has like half the components that it had a year ago. That is you -- you talk about scams, and you talk about cons. That is a scam and a con. Don't present that as evidence of progress. And so, I think they have -- they have a -- they have a lot of work to do here.
COLLINS: Yes, and it's also filled with more Great Value products, instead of brand-name products as well, which obviously the people who are buying those Thanksgiving packages, know very well, and can see.
David Axelrod. Jonah Goldberg. It's great to have both of you here. Thanks so much.
GOLDBERG: Thank you.
COLLINS: And up next. On the President's claims. Remember when this happened a few months ago inside the Oval Office of this white genocide in South Africa? Well, CNN's Donie O'Sullivan went to South Africa to investigate this, and even had an interview with Elon Musk's dad.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
O'SULLIVAN: But, so you understand, because the Black population here was so oppressed under Apartheid--
MUSK: Well, we never saw this oppression you're talking about.
O'SULLIVAN: You never saw it?
MUSK: No, I never saw it. O'SULLIVAN: Yes, because you're--
MUSK: No, I never saw an oppressor (ph).
O'SULLIVAN: Because you're white.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:45:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: This week, a wave of South African officials are publicly rebuking President Trump's claims of a genocide against white Afrikaners in their country. That's after Trump recently announced that no U.S. officials were going to the G20 summit in Johannesburg, this month, citing the ongoing human rights abuses, as he put it in his Truth Social post, which the South African government has denied.
CNN's Donie O'Sullivan traveled to South Africa to investigate these claims, for the latest episode of CNN's "The Whole Story," where he spoke to Errol Musk, who is Elon Musk's father.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
O'SULLIVAN: The big concern at the moment and why I think South Africa is a big talking point in the U.S. right now is, America, in the next 20 years, will become, for the first time in its history, a minority white country.
[21:50:00]
MUSK: Well, that will be a very, very bad thing to happen. You want to see the U.S. go down? Why? You don't like cars and electric cars, and you don't like technology? Or what is it? You want to go back to the jungle, or...?
O'SULLIVAN: If the U.S. becomes a minority white country?
MUSK: Yes.
O'SULLIVAN: So, there's Latinos, there's Blacks, there's people from all different races make up the majority. And then, you know, it could be 48 percent white people. Do you really think the U.S. is doomed if it goes under that?
MUSK: Yes, goes under that.
O'SULLIVAN: Seriously?
MUSK: Yes, of course. You see, if you take South Africa, we have a small white population that projects the European culture. What we learned from Europe.
O'SULLIVAN: And oppressed millions of Black people.
MUSK: No.
O'SULLIVAN: For decades.
MUSK: How do you oppress? You know, we gave them work, we fed them. They grew from a tiny little group into a massive group. That's not oppression. That's feeding them. Do you understand? You only grow big if you get fed. You only start at 800,000 (ph) and become 50 million if you get fed. We fed them. For crying out loud. You know, enough with this nonsense.
O'SULLIVAN: But, so you understand, because the Black population here was so oppressed under Apartheid--
MUSK: Well, we never saw this oppression you're talking about.
O'SULLIVAN: You never saw it?
MUSK: No, I never saw it.
O'SULLIVAN: Yes, because you're--
MUSK: No, I never saw an oppressor (ph).
O'SULLIVAN: Because you're white.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: Donie O'Sullivan. Whoa. That was quite an interview.
O'SULLIVAN: Yes. I mean, look, Kaitlan, I've been doing this quite some time, talking to people who, sort of -- I mean, Errol Musk, a bit like his son, sort of hangs out in those sort of darker corners of the internet, I guess, where a lot of these things are discussed. We're used to hearing a lot of this stuff in sort of coded language or dog whistles, but that was pretty direct there.
And I mean, we should obviously state for the record, and I think people will see in our show on Sunday night, that there is major problems in South Africa. Crime is a massive problem in South Africa. But the way that it's been framed as something that is exclusively targeting white people, or that it is in any way based in race, is just totally bogus.
And I'll just make the point, obviously, on Apartheid. Anybody with any understanding of history knows how brutal that system was, that only ended 30 years ago. And even to this day, you know, the white South Africans make up 7 percent of the population there, but they own 75 percent of the land. That's not to say there isn't crime and awful things happening to some white people, of course. But the idea that whites are being persecuted in a way, that blacks and others are suffering, is really bogus.
COLLINS: Well and, obviously this was this huge moment in the Oval Office, earlier this year.
And when you were there, you talked to South Africa's Foreign Minister, about how the President has been echoing these claims of a white genocide. And I wonder what the Foreign Minister had to say about that.
O'SULLIVAN: Yes. And of course, these false claims of white genocide and white persecution is the reason that Trump is not sending anyone from the government, to the G20, in South Africa, next week.
And yes, as you mentioned, this is what the Foreign Minister had to say, when we asked him about it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
O'SULLIVAN: So we're about to go meet South Africa's Foreign Minister who was sitting in the Oval Office for that infamous meeting with Trump.
RONALD LAMOLA, MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND COOPERATION OF SOUTH AFRICA: It was excruciating. Difficult. That is fear mongering, to pursue the agenda of white supremacy.
O'SULLIVAN: You think Trump is pursuing a white supremacist agenda?
LAMOLA: Yes. I think so. With the program to take the white Afrikaners from South Africa. It's a clear program to back up the issue of white supremacy. And when you look at the Geneva Convention, they don't fit the definition of a refugee.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'SULLIVAN: Yes, and nobody really mincing their words when it comes to this.
I will just say, the White House, in response to this, said, they disputed what Minister Lamola said there, and they said that President Trump is approaching the refugee issue with a, quote, Humanitarian heart.
Of course, the U.S. Refugee Program, next year, is basically being limited to only white South Africans, which has sort of been widely condemned around the world.
COLLINS: Yes. Donie, it's obviously something to keep our eye on. Thank you for joining us tonight.
And for everyone else, you want to see the rest of Donie's story and his trip in South Africa. You can watch "MisinfoNation: White Genocide." It is for "The Whole Story With Anderson Cooper," and it airs this Sunday, at 08:00 p.m. Eastern and Pacific, on CNN. And also, the next day, on the CNN app. Don't miss it.
Up next tonight. Something we've been keeping our eye on. Here at the White House, sources are telling us that the President has been briefed on potential options for military operations inside Venezuela. As Venezuela's leader has a one-word message for the President from CNN. You'll hear that, right after this.
[21:55:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, sources are telling CNN that President Trump was briefed, this week, on options for military operations inside of Venezuela. It's a briefing that gave the President, an updated set of options to consider. But according to one source, he is not any closer to making a decision here, after previously sharing some concerns about taking military action that was meant to oust the Venezuelan leader, Nicolas Maduro.
Now, these are target options that are part of what officials are describing as Operation Southern Spear, which the Defense Secretary, Pete Hegseth, announced on X, earlier this evening, without providing any further details.
But listen to this remarkable moment, as CNN caught up with President Maduro, and asked him this question, while he was in the middle of a rally.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEFANO POZZEBON, CNN CONTRIBUTOR (through translator): What is your message to the people of the United States, President?
NICOLAS MADURO, PRESIDENT, VENEZUELA (through translator): To unite for the peace of the continent. No more endless wars, no more unjust wars. No more Libya, no more Afghanistan.
POZZEBON (through translator): Do you have a message for President Trump?
MADURO (through translator): My message is yes, peace. Yes, peace.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Remarkable not only to hear that, but to see what that moment looks like. We'll stay on top of this story.
Thank you so much for joining us.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT" starts now.
